I really like showing your videos to some of my students as you do such a good job of showing your thought process. Funny that once I saw what you were going to do with the layers of wood I thought "how is he going to move that?". I had forgotten about the empty 'box' for the rudder control. But still that is quite a lot of wood. I am still impressed that the two of you moved it as well as you did. Can't wait to see the next video. Great job as always.
Great solution Panu. That structure will give a lovely distribution of high rudder shaft loads. If the rudder does hits something it’s definitely not going to rip the back of the hull open👍
With the hard curved section, use thin planks. Like strip planking. About 5 mm thick, 2 or 3 layers diagonally overlapped and glued with epoxy. Then glass both sides. Its easier than you think. Here is a trick to help. Before putting a sharp curve in a plank that would normally snap, apply a layer of 200 gsm glass on the OUTSIDE of the bend of the strips. Once its is cured, you will be able to bend the planks into position like an archery bow. Obviously you will lay up a batch of thin planks prior to use. Even if you don't want to go to the trouble, a few thin planks with fibreglass on one side are great for forming fair curves during building. Don't glass both side of a strip, or it will be too stiff for tight bends.
always entertaining on so many levels. I see you bumped into the difference between engineering design and manufacturing, probably not the first or the last time. it made me think of a prior career in aerospace manufacturing - the shop floor planners and the engineers were such good friends! not! The reality is that validating that all the engineering assemblies are satisfied by the manufacturing assemblies is a science on it's own. good luck and march on wards!
Hi Panu!!! When you said that you were going to fill in between the layers with wood, i did not realize that you were going to place full layers. I thought that you were just going to make a grid between the layers just to support the plywood -- Wow ... that is going to be very heavy by the time it is complete! Did you consider using a closed cell foam? It would have made the piece much more manageable to move around and would add buoyancy to the build. It would also be much easier to shape in comparison to the wood to follow that line that you were referring to in the beginning of the video as well. Keep u p the great work!!
Hi! 👋 I didn’t consider foam because all this needs to be super strong and all this wood will support the rudder eventually. Foam isn’t really structural but needs fiberglass or something to transfer the loads.
I was thinking the same thing, this just feels like way, way too much wood? Sure, the rudder will create a fair bit of load, but I find it very hard to believe that it needs anything even close to this. Just making a solid block of laminated wood isn't very efficient, you could probably have built it to a very similar and enough strength at a tiny fraction of the weight. Felt a bit the same in regards to the stem, and the frames as well, it just feels like way too much solid wood. Similar to how wooden boatw used to be built in the past, with the frames, keel and stem being the main structure and the planking only going on in one layer. I don't know what the plan is here, but I have always just assumed that you would be doing cold molding style planking, with 3 or more layers of fairly thin planks going on in different angles, basically creating a tri axial wood and epoxy composite. But it seems like you have a bit more structure than needed for that? Even in traditionally planked hulls, many of the frames are quite thin even in bigger boats. What's the projected weight of the finished boat? :)
@@Robinlarsson83 👋 Probably cannot answer all but the basic structure of the boat is wood composite hull with vertical frames. I didn’t want any horizontal stringers etc. to catch possible dripping water alongside the hull. The frames are mostly for the mast loads. With free standing mast all the forces from the masts are led to the hull and keels via frames and the hull itself. There’s no stays or shrouds to spread the force around. Also there’s no compression underneath the masts and/or need for bulkheads to prevent the hull from buckling around the shrouds in the middle. I haven’t ask the reason for the frames from mr Tanton but I guess the hull would have to be much thicker without them. Or maybe added a lot more fiberglass like RAN. Compared to traditional boats, there’s lot less frames though. In the middle there’s quite a lot for the keels but on the stern there’s 1,5 meters between frames. The weight of the hull this way doesn’t really concern me that much. The target weight of the whole boat is 15 tons fully loaded from which 5 tons is in the keels. It’s hard to imagine the empty hull with all this weighing more than 2-3 tons. I can check volume of the parts from the 3d model though. I just want to make the important parts as sturdy as possible. I actually made the frames little bigger than the plans said. Party because of the plywood and usage of soft timbers.
@@ArcticSeaCamel Hello Panu! Thank you for the reply! Yeah, the rigging loads are definitely very different with the free standing masts, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the rig works out for you! :) 1.5m between the frames was a bit more than I thought, but it's a bit hard to judge from video :) I don't doubt that Mr Tanton knows what's he's doing though :) It was mainly the area around the rudder that felt overkill/unnecessary weight to me, but yeah it's not like it's going to hurt anything either :) I really, really need to continue working on my own boat project again, it's been dormant for way to long, and following your and other boat projects like Duracell is very inspiring!
Panu, windvane for offshore work, autopilot slaved to Nav suite, for inshore work, harbour approaches etc. This allows for eyes on traffic, hazards. Best wishes from Northern Canada.
So would high modulus carbon fiber, a vacuum bag, an 8 bar autoclave and four boatbuilders. But obviously much more expensive, hence why you don't see any of if that, including the foam. Obviously.
This is a gigantic job.....but it cant be the easiest way to build a hull..... and maybe heavy? Is there any other boats that have been built this way?
The weight ratio should be pretty good. Wood isn't that heavy but it creates stiff and strong hull. There's really nothing new with the structure, just with the way I'm doing it with CNC. There's three of these spots where there's solid wood packing. This rudder area and then underneath the masts. I want to do them super sturdy. Weight can be then adjusted with interior things. And pine what i'm using is much lighter than oak for example.
Interesting to see so many feel that laminating a giant slab is ineffective or an overkill ... I donno much, but this way of construction is probably something we are just not used to see, when everything around us is fiberglass and foam, chipboard and concrete. At the end of the day, with reinforcements needed for a rudder of this size, such structure couldn't be much lighter, or? Anyway, that is your son? Were you 20 or what?
All I can say that the plans specify packings around the rudder. I decided to make it this way to prevent also unreachable cavities where water could stay. Also considering the fact that this will be the end of the rudder shaft - because of the dingy garage I can’t extend it further to get bearing point up to the deck. I was 21 🥰
That's possibly the most heavy, awkward method of getting a curved stern I have seen. You need some structural foam between the plywood shapes, that you can fair to shape.
Foam is nice if the strength completely comes from a fiber glass construction but wood as a core material is very strong and tough so it will give a completely different result and will require just a fraction of the glass to reach the required strength. The finished boat may have very different properties not only on impact resistance but also how the wood will absorb and spread the loads of the wind and waves. Would probably be a lot more supple and comfortable.
There's actually very little to none structural fiberglass coming into the boat. Most of the glass is just for protecting the moderately soft wood from dents.
@ThaJay The big trap with "mostly wood" is that the softwood has to be totally encapsulated to avoid rot. Its not like there is much teak or even cedar in this build.
@@dnomyarnostaw Indeed! That's very doable and part of the whole point of building a boat this way is to make it possible to use these materials because slow growing hard woods like teak, oak, hickory, maple you name it are running out FAST. So we not only need to go full force on sustainable forestry and utilizing city wood as well instead of chipping it, we also need to reinvent a lot of processes and this is one that can really help maintian the tradition and joy of wooden boat building and sailing because the common soft woods grow so much faster that lumber production is not going to slow down any time soon. The Scandinavian countries have a long standing tradition of building boats from softwoods and I think it's really cool to see it being made possible to use modern construction techniques without changing the materials too much. We do have strip building these days but making the frames first would probably save on a huge amount of waste in not having to make all those moulds first so this is another hybrid between modern and traditional methods but leaning a bit more towards modern. I cant wait to see the rest of the build unfold!
i've seen the entire Tally Ho build, the whole Yaba build, all of the Acorn to Arabella and of course, Ran.... I'm what they call a boat expert, as a boat expert, this method will never work. and to the rest of the comment section, i'm black! so if i dect even the smallest hint of disagreement you're a racist and a bigot
Hi. 👋 Not really sure what you mean of “not working”. There’s really nothing special here except that I’m doing things in different order and cutting parts with CNC. Cheers!
I really like showing your videos to some of my students as you do such a good job of showing your thought process. Funny that once I saw what you were going to do with the layers of wood I thought "how is he going to move that?". I had forgotten about the empty 'box' for the rudder control. But still that is quite a lot of wood. I am still impressed that the two of you moved it as well as you did. Can't wait to see the next video. Great job as always.
Great solution Panu. That structure will give a lovely distribution of high rudder shaft loads. If the rudder does hits something it’s definitely not going to rip the back of the hull open👍
Haha you will definitely need a support structure . Great work
You are very clever the way you work the 'jigsaw puzzle' of pieces out. Well done. Cheers Ian
Thank you for another great video. You are so positive, I love it! Good luck during the week
Such a good result to have that section made up and have your son to help out Panu.
Bro is an expert at filling shapes with wood at this point.
Thank You, I wish always you the best, so happy will all work along Videos. :)
Fantastic job as always Panu, and as always I can't wait for the next episode.
With the hard curved section, use thin planks. Like strip planking. About 5 mm thick, 2 or 3 layers diagonally overlapped and glued with epoxy. Then glass both sides.
Its easier than you think.
Here is a trick to help. Before putting a sharp curve in a plank that would normally snap, apply a layer of 200 gsm glass on the OUTSIDE of the bend of the strips. Once its is cured, you will be able to bend the planks into position like an archery bow. Obviously you will lay up a batch of thin planks prior to use.
Even if you don't want to go to the trouble, a few thin planks with fibreglass on one side are great for forming fair curves during building. Don't glass both side of a strip, or it will be too stiff for tight bends.
always entertaining on so many levels. I see you bumped into the difference between engineering design and manufacturing, probably not the first or the last time. it made me think of a prior career in aerospace manufacturing - the shop floor planners and the engineers were such good friends! not! The reality is that validating that all the engineering assemblies are satisfied by the manufacturing assemblies is a science on it's own. good luck and march on wards!
Lucky that I do the both roles myself. I can blame the left hand. 😅
great episode, that was a big lay up
Nice progress Panu.
Looking good Panu! 😊
Awesome progress
It's wild to think, every piece you are processing is going to sail around the world some day. You ever think of that?
Yes. I’ve been thinking that every now and then. It feels very far from reality. 🫠
Hi Panu!!! When you said that you were going to fill in between the layers with wood, i did not realize that you were going to place full layers. I thought that you were just going to make a grid between the layers just to support the plywood -- Wow ... that is going to be very heavy by the time it is complete! Did you consider using a closed cell foam? It would have made the piece much more manageable to move around and would add buoyancy to the build. It would also be much easier to shape in comparison to the wood to follow that line that you were referring to in the beginning of the video as well. Keep u p the great work!!
Hi! 👋
I didn’t consider foam because all this needs to be super strong and all this wood will support the rudder eventually. Foam isn’t really structural but needs fiberglass or something to transfer the loads.
I was thinking the same thing, this just feels like way, way too much wood?
Sure, the rudder will create a fair bit of load, but I find it very hard to believe that it needs anything even close to this.
Just making a solid block of laminated wood isn't very efficient, you could probably have built it to a very similar and enough strength at a tiny fraction of the weight.
Felt a bit the same in regards to the stem, and the frames as well, it just feels like way too much solid wood. Similar to how wooden boatw used to be built in the past, with the frames, keel and stem being the main structure and the planking only going on in one layer.
I don't know what the plan is here, but I have always just assumed that you would be doing cold molding style planking, with 3 or more layers of fairly thin planks going on in different angles, basically creating a tri axial wood and epoxy composite.
But it seems like you have a bit more structure than needed for that?
Even in traditionally planked hulls, many of the frames are quite thin even in bigger boats.
What's the projected weight of the finished boat? :)
@@Robinlarsson83 👋
Probably cannot answer all but the basic structure of the boat is wood composite hull with vertical frames. I didn’t want any horizontal stringers etc. to catch possible dripping water alongside the hull.
The frames are mostly for the mast loads. With free standing mast all the forces from the masts are led to the hull and keels via frames and the hull itself. There’s no stays or shrouds to spread the force around. Also there’s no compression underneath the masts and/or need for bulkheads to prevent the hull from buckling around the shrouds in the middle.
I haven’t ask the reason for the frames from mr Tanton but I guess the hull would have to be much thicker without them. Or maybe added a lot more fiberglass like RAN.
Compared to traditional boats, there’s lot less frames though. In the middle there’s quite a lot for the keels but on the stern there’s 1,5 meters between frames.
The weight of the hull this way doesn’t really concern me that much. The target weight of the whole boat is 15 tons fully loaded from which 5 tons is in the keels. It’s hard to imagine the empty hull with all this weighing more than 2-3 tons. I can check volume of the parts from the 3d model though.
I just want to make the important parts as sturdy as possible. I actually made the frames little bigger than the plans said. Party because of the plywood and usage of soft timbers.
@@ArcticSeaCamel Hello Panu!
Thank you for the reply!
Yeah, the rigging loads are definitely very different with the free standing masts, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the rig works out for you! :)
1.5m between the frames was a bit more than I thought, but it's a bit hard to judge from video :)
I don't doubt that Mr Tanton knows what's he's doing though :)
It was mainly the area around the rudder that felt overkill/unnecessary weight to me, but yeah it's not like it's going to hurt anything either :)
I really, really need to continue working on my own boat project again, it's been dormant for way to long, and following your and other boat projects like Duracell is very inspiring!
Panu, windvane for offshore work, autopilot slaved to Nav suite, for inshore work, harbour approaches etc. This allows for eyes on traffic, hazards.
Best wishes from Northern Canada.
Yep. At least there’s some sort of placement for them. 😊
Great job. I can see how it will come out now. 👍👍
Awesome stuff bud.
Panu do you often find yourself over-thinking a problem ?
Constantly! 😂
@@ArcticSeaCamelIt doesn’t seem to be holding you back though!
Structural foam would have made this piece strong enough and light weight
So would high modulus carbon fiber, a vacuum bag, an 8 bar autoclave and four boatbuilders. But obviously much more expensive, hence why you don't see any of if that, including the foam. Obviously.
Foam is just filler.
This is a gigantic job.....but it cant be the easiest way to build a hull..... and maybe heavy? Is there any other boats that have been built this way?
The weight ratio should be pretty good. Wood isn't that heavy but it creates stiff and strong hull. There's really nothing new with the structure, just with the way I'm doing it with CNC.
There's three of these spots where there's solid wood packing. This rudder area and then underneath the masts. I want to do them super sturdy. Weight can be then adjusted with interior things. And pine what i'm using is much lighter than oak for example.
Will you be shaping your glue up to final shape on the CNC using a ball mill bit?
No, unfortunately it’s too thick to fit under the CNC gantry.
Interesting to see so many feel that laminating a giant slab is ineffective or an overkill ... I donno much, but this way of construction is probably something we are just not used to see, when everything around us is fiberglass and foam, chipboard and concrete. At the end of the day, with reinforcements needed for a rudder of this size, such structure couldn't be much lighter, or?
Anyway, that is your son?
Were you 20 or what?
All I can say that the plans specify packings around the rudder. I decided to make it this way to prevent also unreachable cavities where water could stay. Also considering the fact that this will be the end of the rudder shaft - because of the dingy garage I can’t extend it further to get bearing point up to the deck.
I was 21 🥰
😊
I see further on its open from the top
👌🏼
Where is the access to the quadrant after its all laminated?
Quadrant is open to the inside of the boat?
That's possibly the most heavy, awkward method of getting a curved stern I have seen. You need some structural foam between the plywood shapes, that you can fair to shape.
😅
Foam is nice if the strength completely comes from a fiber glass construction but wood as a core material is very strong and tough so it will give a completely different result and will require just a fraction of the glass to reach the required strength. The finished boat may have very different properties not only on impact resistance but also how the wood will absorb and spread the loads of the wind and waves. Would probably be a lot more supple and comfortable.
There's actually very little to none structural fiberglass coming into the boat. Most of the glass is just for protecting the moderately soft wood from dents.
@ThaJay The big trap with "mostly wood" is that the softwood has to be totally encapsulated to avoid rot.
Its not like there is much teak or even cedar in this build.
@@dnomyarnostaw Indeed! That's very doable and part of the whole point of building a boat this way is to make it possible to use these materials because slow growing hard woods like teak, oak, hickory, maple you name it are running out FAST. So we not only need to go full force on sustainable forestry and utilizing city wood as well instead of chipping it, we also need to reinvent a lot of processes and this is one that can really help maintian the tradition and joy of wooden boat building and sailing because the common soft woods grow so much faster that lumber production is not going to slow down any time soon.
The Scandinavian countries have a long standing tradition of building boats from softwoods and I think it's really cool to see it being made possible to use modern construction techniques without changing the materials too much. We do have strip building these days but making the frames first would probably save on a huge amount of waste in not having to make all those moulds first so this is another hybrid between modern and traditional methods but leaning a bit more towards modern.
I cant wait to see the rest of the build unfold!
😂
I think it's over complicated, i don't see the need for all of this...
The rudder needs support structures in way or another. It’s much easier to do them now.
i've seen the entire Tally Ho build, the whole Yaba build, all of the Acorn to Arabella and of course, Ran.... I'm what they call a boat expert, as a boat expert, this method will never work. and to the rest of the comment section, i'm black! so if i dect even the smallest hint of disagreement you're a racist and a bigot
Hi. 👋
Not really sure what you mean of “not working”. There’s really nothing special here except that I’m doing things in different order and cutting parts with CNC.
Cheers!
I think that you are loosing much time with details.
Your episodes will a lot more interesting with less explanations
All the details needs to be done anyway. It’s easier to do now rather than after the hull is done.
I completely disagree 😂