NBNs HFC to finally get Gigabit Speeds | Dirt Report
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
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Hi Pat, I signed up to 'Launtel' from one of those big ISP's (crap) and have never been happier. Full speed all the time, and most of the time over speed.
About time Australia moves into the year 2012. I was getting gigabit back in Singapore in 2008. Not to mention it was only $29 pm we bend over and take it big time in terms of pricing here in Australia
Even though I had those speeds at work, I remember the feeling of visiting a friend in America who had symmetric 300/300 HFC at home, and enjoying the WFH quality. That was in 2018, and was when I decided to get FTTP when I had the chance (in 2020, LOL)
lol yeah I had gigabit fibre in Tokyo in 2006. Tbf in those days the rest of the internet was usually the bottleneck.
@@peetiegonzalez1845 Yes very true...even the nvidia driver download site would top out at 600ish mbit
@@peetiegonzalez1845 1000/1000 WANs are fairly useless for a single stream. The idea of massive speeds is to share with multiple devices.
I’m currently living in Singapore and have a 2 gigabit connection but let’s be honest, it’s significantly cheaper to install a network in a high density population where most live in a Condo or HDB vs Australia where most live in landed properties.
I get FTTH in Thailand at 1000/1000 for $45 per month. Australian pricing is a complete rip off
Legit. It’s not just a rip off; it’s a joke!!
Not just the pricing the infrastructure to
To be fair, Thailand has much lower wages and much higher population density (economies of scale). The average Thai salary is only 15% that of Australia. So if we extrapolate that out $45/15x100 =$300pm.
@@mondotv4216 how does it cost the provider more money to put 1000mbs down a cable from a server to a home - than say 100mbs? It it different hardware? Or do they apply choke it down via software? I'm FTTH.
@@mondotv4216 aware of all that, but that is not the primary reason why Australian prices are ridiculous. Its a combo of protecting vested interests, and the stupidity of not going with the original NBN FTTH plan (which was directly tied to the first point).
So when are we getting 1:1 up/down? It's like 2024
symmetrical internet is for aka the "corporate customers", and if you spend enough.
I work in an industrial estate where nbn had to do all of the civil work installing new pits, pipes, bore in new lead ins, bring new distribution fibre and hfc plant for the entire estate..... it would have literally been cheaper to run fibre
Been on HFC for many years now. I am waiting for the day we can get the free FTTH upgrade.
It isn’t coming anytime soon unfortunately
I asked nbn about this and there aren't any plans, suspect eventually they'll have to but we'll be waiting a long long while.
HFC is fine!?
You’ll get “free” gigabit but not free FTTP. Honestly for most people it’s probably fine, even though I think economically & financially for NBNCo it’s garbage. People who do a serious amount of WFH will get FTTP and would have done so by now if 2020 impacted them.
I’m getting ftth this week if they have to dig and lay the cable they don’t put it in conduit, so be aware of that
I’m on Aussie Boradband 100/40 and my only upgrade option is 250/25.
As I work from home I would rather get faster uploads not download. This is where HFC fails compared to fibre.
Exactly. Upload speeds should be same as download speeds. HFC also has too many maintenance issues.
@@josephj6521 mine has been super reliable and fast compared to others. The node is really close and they ran new higher spec cable at installation. But 100/100 would be a dream let alone Gbit.
We received an NBN connection very late in the rollout, and you guessed it HFC. On the up side all brand new install, with only my cable in the conduit, and 1000/50 connection from day one. I still shake my head at the expense of a new copper install.
I still wish I had FTTP, although I spose I shouldn't complain too much when I would've had to deal with FTTN for half a decade first!
I’m currently on gigabit HFC. I get 950 down and 50 up on ethernet. My wifi access points aren’t fast enough though, so i can only get 500 from them.
Still bloody amazing compared to the 8mbps i got as recently as 2019 on my old ADSL connection. I honestly don’t know how i used to manage with such a slow speed! I remember having to wait for hours for a few gigabytes worth of data to download. Now it happens in seconds.
the speeds you get are burst speeds not sustained, this change is designed to lift that restriction so you can achieve 950mbps for a prolonged period of time not just for 10-50 seconds or so.
@@birdythescarecrow it seems pretty sustained to me. Doesn’t seem to drop even after running multiple tests in a row.
@@birdythescarecrowI can confirm it seems sustained already. I get about the same speeds and I’ve even done a test for 1 hour and it downloaded at about 930 the whole time on Ethernet.
@birdythescarecrow I agree, I can download Arma3 from steam, about 200GB and average over 100MB/sec... Looks sustained to me....
@@asksearchknockI just posted the same, at least at the beginning 1gbit was always possible.
Australia would probably do 1000 down 40 up. 🤦♂️
Make it symmetrical!!!
Right!!! 50 up is a joke. 100-200 minimum.
They do already I think
@@ViscusRUclipsIts horrible :(
I had cable (100mb/s) installed over 10 years ago, but apparently with NBN, we were only allowed FTTC. Still have the cable into our property, no Fibre 😞
Though I did get an ombudsman judgment against Telstra for their complete bungling of our forced NBN changeover in 2020.
It’s great when they try and pitch you on the forced “upgrade” to a slower speed internet tech than you’ve had for over a decade.
I'm on NBN HFC and I'm thrilled. I've been on the "gigabit" plan for almost 12 months due to picking up a discount offer where the 1000/50 was almost the same price as the 100/40. It's been great having ~750mbps but I'll absolutely welcome the full throughput next month. I don't need it often, but I love it when I do.
We eventually got NBN HFC late 2020. They had to send a civil team out to dig a tunnel. I had heard all the horror stories beforehand but I had to say it’s been fairly good ever since. Before that I was using 4G which only worked at the front of the house with adsl2 for a backup.
I’ve been on HFC for over 5 years and all was good on the 50/20 plan. I upgraded to ‘up-to’ giga bit about 15 months ago for ‘work’ and have regularly been able to download large games at 800-900 mbps average rates as well. Been great. Look forward to getting a full gig from May. I love the nbn - much better than the ADSL 2 I had before
I was an early HFC customer in Sydney with the old bigpond with a Motorola brick box back in 99, then replaced with a Surfboard 2. Now in Brisbane and on a tiny HFC modem.
Same.
But I found that the Cisco (not the Surfboard) gave faster and lower latency on the network.
Was interesting to see the actual "link speed" behind modem on old Foxtel/Telstra HFC. Towards 1Gb. My local cabinet at top of driveway
I remember that I got it originally through a foxtel deal - cheaper with free installation as long as you rented their minimum package for 12 months.
The variable latency on HFC is most annoying. I’ve needed a super low latency for accurate video work from Perth to New Zealand and the suburb we’ve moved to has HFC with lots of micro drops, and the network latency is half at night time when everyone is asleep.
I bet the latency is noticeably lower during off peak hours. Sounds like the node you're on is too oversubscribed. These are the things I don't miss about HFC having FTTH.
Well In Canada, my little part I get 1.5Gbps with the plan I have over coax. Used to be 1.5Gbps down and 50Mbps up. The upload speed has increased to 150Mbps. I look forward to the potential symmetrical speeds DOCSIS 4.0 can provide if possible. Breathe life into maintaining coax connections. Wont be getting FTTH any time soon.
Wasn't HFC gigabit already available? I had it for the past few years when I was living in Central Sydney. Almost always attained the full gigabit.
iiNet in Geelong on 750Mb for $80 so compared to normal NBN I'm happy. I've had this connection for 20 years from back when it was Neighbourhood cable.
Me 2 .In Perth
I'm on HFC and have the 1000/50 plan with Aussie Broadband, will be keen to see if I notice a boost after 1st May. Thanks for sharing this news mate, keep up the good work!!!
Same here. I wasn't aware that I wasn't getting what I was paying for.
@@BrettSurenne Yeah bloody oath eh!
@@BrettSurenne Absolutely no-one gets what they pay for on NBN.
The 50 up is the real bottleneck. Where are the symmetrical speeds? I would rather 500/500 then 1000/50
For our needs, I'm happy with my 100 down with HFC, but I'd love faster upload than 40mbps without having to forkout more for faster download speed we don't need.
Ive been on hfc unlimited with Aussie BB and I've always measured 910ish down, I didnt think it was just burst speeds but hopefully I notice a difference now.
I'm with Telstra as my ISP and have HFC.
I probably will look into getting the full speed if not already. I did call Telstra because there was the promotion to get Fibre to the Home and when I asked about this they did say I'm on HFC so I already ultra fast speed. I'll see what costs are to get this ready for upgrade.
Been on 1000/50 HFC since November been great. Get about 920 down 47 up
How’s uptime? My FTTP is the same speed but I also know the FTTC it replaced was unreliable in terms of weather and frequent unscheduled maintenance.
@@whophd uptime has been fine a few small outages but that was due to maintenance in my area . I was with Aussie Broadband just switch to Superloop as it’s $20-$30 Cheaper for the same plan.
@@whophd up time has been ok a few outages due to some maintenance in my area. I was with Aussie Broadband just switched over to Superloop as it’s $20-$30 cheaper.
@@lukehodgkinson4261 oh wow I thought I was unusual with switching from ABB to Superloop in 2020 (wow time flies) -- Aussie BB were super nice to me when I left, I can still recommend them, plus I know that my plan (with quota) isn't for everyone. I just prefer the guaranteed download speed, don't need unlimited terabytes.
I'm getting a very steady 100/40 (tests slightly above or slightly below those speeds depending on time of day. I think I'll be looking at 250/100. There are three of us in the house with about 7-8 computers, a few tablets, phones, etc and 100/40 is fine for most things. We can all WFH simultaneously, no issues with RDP, video meetings, whiteboards, etc. Gig would be nice to have but at NBN pricing, it seems like a luxury. I really think day to day, the only difference will be in benchmarks.
Im on nbn 100/20 with with 8-12 ms average it works well with everything i need to do such as gaming or streaming 4k content would love to see a possible fttp in the future but im not in a rush for it
Seems in Brisbane there's heaps of houses on HFC.
And in Perth too with HFC in many suburbs close to the CBD which were targetted in the Foxtel rollout of subscription TV.
Just switched from Optass to TPG, now getting (last I checked) 970/60 , rad !!
We switched to UltraFast HFC plan mid last year, the tech people said we should get speeds up to 450Mbps download and no guarantees on uploads but it should be 40Mbps. We consistently get over 950Mbps down and 47Mbps up, which is very nice. So perhaps the capping profile were never in place on our local node. Also HFC was rubbish up until DOCSIS 3.1 which was pushed out 2018/19, which made HFC so very much more stable!
I don’t believe this is the final upgrade, they’re looking at deploying Remote PHY Distribute Access Architecture by EOY
Ooh I want to know more!
I would prefer it if HFC could also offer higher upload speeds aswell? FTTP is capable of upload speeds as high as 400mbps but I have only ever heard of 50mbps being the maximum for HFC, available download speeds are already impressively fast, it's the upload speeds that need to improve.
I've had HFC gigabit for nearly 12 months ... actually, the price was just reduced from $149 a month to $109 a month. Usually get 950-850 down, 40 up in peak
We're on Telstra 50 which is enough normally,just utube and occassionally Netflix.Any time I test we're getting about 25-26Mbs.The other night the daughter was trying to download a game(rarity) and the best we could get was 3Mbs.Reminded me of the old days with dial up😂.Following day back to normal.
There are PLENTY of HFC connections out there, what do you mean? Look at my street, or a map of Australia’s MTM footprint. “One file” would not be a PDF. It’d be a Linux ISO or other disk image of several gigabytes. I typically spend 3 minutes a day downloading those over FTTP, so a 1-minute boost over HFC would be incredibly useful. The big question is: How to enable it? I want the boost to start when I say, not before.
I’m on 1000/50 HFC with Launtel. Very happy with it but would like better upload speeds. 1000/400 would be great. It was only $3 a month more than the 400/50 plan so it’s a no brainer.
when are they upgrading 100/20 plans?
I had HFC 950 down/46up three years ago. What's the news here? Did I miss something?
My 100/20 NBN HFC service experiences outages almost weekly, sometimes twice weekly. Would love the FTTH with an uplift of another 100-200 or so Mbps for the same price. My experience with 500+Mbps services in Europe and Dubai says most downloads are governed and rarely, if ever, reach greater than 300Mbps.
Over the years I’ve found the sites limited to 300 Mbps have changed. The ones that have improved to gigabit (possibly higher, but can’t literally find out yet) are my work VPN ones, so that’s good and it makes sense. The ones that haven’t … are gaming sites like Xbox, sadly. No matter how good my internet and Ethernet is, there’s no way I can get my Flight Simulator updates at faster than 50 Mbps. Not 300, not even 100. Ridiculous! I would set up a mirror right now if they let me.
AppStores like MS and Apple are pretty much gigabit I think. If I download off Wikipedia or RUclips it’s much slower but for different reasons I can totally accept those two being that way.
I've had gigabit HFC for ages now? Aussie still loves to keep it at 600mbit though...
That said it used to always be 1gbit.
Already on 1000/50 through Superloop. Getting 970-975 down pretty consistently and about 48 up
I'm getting FTTP in june hopefully, I would be happy with their new 500/50 plan if its going to cost the same as 100/20.
I've had HFC for years now and had gigabit plan since changing to SuperLoop about 12 months ago. I don't know what you mean but it was capped, I've always had the full gigabit speed.
On a side note, has anyone been about to get link agreggation to work on the arris modem?
I tried this a while ago with ABB
I'm only interested in plans on hfc now if they allow 100 up or higher
ABB do! And they have the NBN $0 upgrade from fttc to fttp.
I have HFC on 100/20 plan.Speedtest = 270mbs down 24mbs up. Please advise if I need a new modem to get faster speed. Yes not bad speed when the connection is not buffering.
Regards James
I moved here from Taiwan, 8 years ago 100/100 was standard and cost AUD 19 a month, BECAUSE IT WAS A GOVERNMENT SERVICE!!! No, I won't be moving to a 1GB line for $100+ a month. I've almost exhausted all 6 month offers for 50/20 and once I have will start making my way through the 100/20 offers.
I’m on hfc but honestly I probably won’t upgrade my speed I’m on 100/50 and I don’t really see the need to upgrade. Can stream 4k no problems online games have low lag, sure downloading games would be faster but I don’t think that would justify the probably silly high price they would ask
It probably *is* fine. You wouldn’t use it for a home office or real office, at least not if it does data business.
Yes when are we getting 1:1, i do have already have the gigabit down but the up is still cap at 50. This has been a few years. Time for the upgrade
It's nice that my HFC can now get gigabit but I don't need gigabit and my network hardware is too old for gigabit internet (router is only 100mbps). Overall i have been very happy with HFC even at only 50 mbps. It is great the option is now there if I ever want it
Wow, NBN only getting Gig speeds now. As a Canadian we've had Gig as a speed tier for easily a decade. They must be just moving from DOCSIS 3.0 to 3.1 then. Rogers has 2.5 Gbps speed tier in most areas now but they bumped from 1 to 1.5 Gbps a year or so ago. But honestly since I have had FTTH for 7 years I wouldn't want to go back to cable; even with DOCSIS 4 and fully implemented.
ive been on hfc for years now, and ive been having 1gp for the last like 2 years, idk if its hwewr i am
Telstra: "Would you like to upgrade to our top-tier $140 100mb/s plan?"
I had 1000/500Mb line in NZ for for NZ $75
What will the upload speed be.
Many of us live in Australia’s largest city and only have HFC. Joke. Unless I can get 1000 up and no more maintenance issues, I’ll do it. Unfortunately the best option if we all have FTTP. Not fair that we miss out.
The packet loss of HFC is annoying, I have to restart my router and hfc box everyday to have a stable gaming experience
I’ve had gigabit for a few years on HFC now. Not super stable but my MIMO devices are speedy bois. The real question is when FTTP can do significantly more than gigabit.
NBN is going to continue investing in HFC. They announced last year that they're set aside $1B for DAA over the next few years in anticipation of DOCSIS 4.0 being released in 2025/26.
HFC isn't going anywhere and has easily 10-15 years shelf life ahead of it because of the investment US Cable Companies are having to make.
My apartment complex is fully hfc cabled for Foxtel originally yet nbn insists we have to remain on fibre to the basement and use vdsl via the old pstn phone cabling. Does anyone else not quite understand this?
Yeah. It's turned off, and possibly removed from the poles.
Vdsl in a building should get very high speeds.
@@myne00 max is 100/40 that I have been able to order in my part of Sydney all the cabling is underground and not dependent on overhead cabling at all. There are thousands of cabled apartments in Sydney so to me it doesn’t make sense not to use the existing paid for infrastructure. The increased revenue from higher speed plans surely makes the transition to full fibre delivery in apartments easier to achieve
950/500 here in NZ for 90$. I had 100/20 in AU. Nbn is laughabke when they gutted it.
I've been getting 900+ consistently on HFC since well before Xmas last year?
I’ve been on 1000/50 for months. Getting 950+ down and 40+ up.
Many thanks for flagging this. I just checked my RSP account and found that 1GB is already available for my service. Unbelievable. Regarding your statement that not many HFC connections remain, how did you come to that conclusion? It is my understanding and experience that NBN had not plans to upgrade HFC connections as part of their roll out. Would love to know where HFC was upgraded to FTTC and references. Thank you for sharing. Cheers
HFC still needs updates with its pathetic upload speeds. Yet we are not eligible for the free FTTP upgrade. I was quoted $18K.
I was on HFC and getting 950Mb/48Mb.
I upgraded to FTTP and was still getting 950Mb/48Mb
Only difference was latency.
Local latency:
On HFC I was getting 7-13ms
On FTTP I am getting 1-2ms.
Asian:
On HFC 80-120ms
On FTTP 30-50ms
America:
On HFC 210-230ms
On FTTP 150-170ms
Europe:
On HFC 280-310
On FTTP 220-250
So its STILL worth upgrading to FTTP.
Thanks for sharing those numbers, Quite interesting.
I'm still stuck on HFC in my area as the only option, Online games the latency matters for me even when it's not an FPS game.
I have HFC via TPG, I been paying the origina lprice for many years,I wonder if they will give me a free upgrade, like I have 100/40 now and do not want to lose it, their last offer was something like 200/20 and told them to screw that. $110 a month I really hope they look after me.
Superloop customer HFC 900ish down 45 up upgraded from 100/40 to 1000/50 afew weeks back.
Do you have to get up at 3AM to get these speeds? HFC was SOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOOOW in the afternoons and evenings.
What about upload speeds? Is HFC forever locked to a max of 50mbps because of technical limitations or is it artificially restricted? My building only has HFC and I suspect it won't be getting upgraded to FTTP for a very long time.
It annoys the hell out of me that upload speeds are so ridiculously capped/not advertised well on so many plans and if you do have the option to go higher then the price jump is exorbitant. Some people require fast upload speeds!
FTTP is the same; upload is rubbish unless you pay for the ‘business’ plans.
@@ViscusRUclips Yeah I had FTTP at 3 homes since it first rolled out and tried out 1000/50 a few times. Wanted the upload speed but couldn't justify the cost.
Unfortunately I've now bought in a place that only has HFC so don't appear to even have the expensive options for upload speeds any more.
And you pay half the price for 2g up and down in NZ
what about uplink?
It will stay the same
Lets hope 5G comes in and gives us affordable broadband
Better, faster, sooner, apparently.
Is HFC reliable yet, in Australia!? When the forced PSTN shutdown finally reached me and I had no option but to say goodbye to my old Internode ADSL2+ Annex M connection, the ONLY wired option made available to my inner city apartment was NBN HFC. And it was awful.
Outages were literally DAILY and would last anywhere from hours to DAYS! Absolutely 100% unusable for any sort of WFH. Doesn't matter how fast it is when it works, because when it doesn't work it's 0 bps.
Thankfully my unit block got FttB, courtesy of PIPE Networks and then PIPE got bought by TPG and then suddenly I had rock solid *_non-NBN_* 100/40 FttB that never goes down.
1 Gbps sounds nice, but if it's unreliable, I'll take rock solid 100/40 any day.
on 25 mbps (unlimited data) for $55/mth and on hfc. That's all i need to watch youtube, browse ...😊
Nope. Going to stick with 5G for a while. I hope one day they’ll replace HFC with fibre in my suburb
I dont understand. I have had gigabit for the last 1 year. (I moved house from gigabit FTTP to HFC. I was onl gigabit FTTP for about a year too)
I have regularly downloaded steam games and updates at gigabit speeds for greater than the 50sec limit. Most recently I screenshot and shared an extract from steam with peak 115.4MB/s and current speed 113.4MB/s which was 12.9GB into a 13.1GB update. Thats like 2min straight of over gigabit speeds. more than the 50sec and more than the 970mbps
i guess i won the NBN lottery?
HFC has had Gbit capability for over 10 years, but it wasnt offered as a standard to everyone. Pricing in Australia is pathetic with no competition. Everyone offers the same $80 plans at 50Mbit. What do you think Gbit will cost at these shit rates?
Meanwhile in the bush we get 100mbit
I wonder how many are going to pay for the fastest speeds but have absolutely no need for it beyond bragging rights ?
What about us poor Fiber users?
Only took what, 10 years of NBN
Too expensive anyway. If I didn’t have kids that use the home internet, I’d be disconnecting from NBN entirely. Might still do it and just hotspot the TV and PS5 from my phone when they’re with me…
great if your on nbn hfc , lots of decrepit hfc estate areas have been bought up by private networks like opticomm and left to rot . have to get wireless here , the hfc is useless and no plans to fix or upgrade it
They capped your 4G phone connection now to 100mbs. If you were close to a tower, why would you pay for NBN. I was getting 350mbs on my phone. 5G has also been capped to 100mbs. This is slight of hand as there's probably so few customers left on cable, they are trying to save a sinking ship. NBN are losing thousands of customers to Starlink. Remember the PM said we only need 20mbs each and not these crazy speeds. LOL FYI NBN sent out a tech to change our wifi 4G antenna. We asked "Is it 5G and faster speeds?" No, just a new 4G antenna. You can't fix stupid.
Fixed Wireless - has only need to get to 25mps ONCE in 24 hours and 6Mps download average. What a JOKE!
NBN's too expensive. 4G works great at my place
I am paying $49.99/month with TPGs 4G wireless. Works great. The downside is i lost my landline.
its not even 1GB its slightly less
I'm on NBN satellite because fibre will never be coming anywhere near rural areas. They've only just upgraded those plans from being bent over and reamed with sand (limited access) to bent over with lube (5Mbs unlimited). Third world countries still have better speeds.
Starlink?
@@andrewcnz Yeah, costs more per month than NBN unfortunately. Great if you have kids that are constantly on the net though. Mine have moved out.
@@peterschmidt9942 What sort of money for the Satellite service you use?
@@andrewcnz $70. Just seems to increase and increase. If I want unlimited, it's another $10 a month. Other than that, it's unlimited now except between 4pm-12am for video streaming.
@@peterschmidt9942 Interesting, I'm in NZ and Starlink have a cheaper unlimited option (Deprioritized Standard: 50-100 Mbps) @ NZ$79/mo for service and NZ$399 for hardware. Can you get that?
I pay enough now, so no. Won't be upgrading to 1 gigabit.
Two things I still hate about this.
1. HFC still goes down during a prolonged power outage, even if you have a UPS your internet will go down.
FTTP does not have this issue.
2. Still really poor upload speeds, and they don’t even offer business plans with higher upload speeds on HFC.
So major fail!
Yeah they do. Try a RSP like Aussie Broadband and put in your address then search for business plans.
@@bucinsk I have tried that.
The plans are there but once I put my address in and it registers that I have HFC, all the high upload plans disappear.
I have also called Aussie BB and confirmed they do not offer 250/100 or 500/200 on HFC.
@@joshuakerekes6457 I for one am Extremely disappointed to hear that. :(
Unless you're a third class citizen in the country and get 2.5 Mb/sec!!!!
You keep saying speeds but isn't that incorrect? It's bandwidth. And why are you praising broken promises? We were told Fiber and their spending should be enough to provide Fiber nationwide.
We taxpayers also want/demand equal upload to download bandwidths at reasonable rates. For $100 I want 500/500 minimum.
its speeds not bandwidth
It's impressive but I'm not sure why anyone would need 750Mps.
The liberals said the same thing about no one needing more than a 25Mps and then butchered the NBN.
Game downloads are getting pretty massive, most of the time it'll be idle but the speed is nice when needed.
always getting ripped here in Australia when it comes to pricing. Other countries are well ahead with their internet infrastructure and paying way less for better down and upload speeds. Always a bunch of clowns running the show here
Time for that crappy HFC to be ripped out and replaced.
As much as enthusiasts love having and bragging about 1Gigabit speeds, it probably not required as you said. Anyway I'm happy on my 50/20 HFC plan. Sure I would love 100/20 or 100/40 but i cant justify the extra cost to do it.
I think there are still heaps of HFC connections out there, sure probably not for new builds/developments but heaps of existing stuff still there.
im on hfc its about dam time better work...