This Commodore 1541 hides a terrible secret.
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- Ticking time bombs: 1541 floppy disk drives with Newtronics mechanisms. How to identify them and test for a failed read/write head!
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00:00 Introduction
00:31 Background
02:04 How to Test
05:16 Repair Options
06:48 eBay Examples
08:07 Conclusion
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Short? Wait where? O.L is open.
I do wonder what repair methods we may be able to devise nowadays. You can SLA print precision parts and we can build precision coil winding machines at home. I do have a drive somewhere in a box stored under low humidity that may potentially be affected, i should check it out.
Yeah, OL is indicating open line, not shorted one.
Thanks for pointing that out! I carelessly saw a 0 instead of O and stopped there. My bad. Clearly I need to be more observant. That's twice in two videos where I've missed obviously things that were right in front of me. I disassembled the drive and checked continuity of pin1 from the connector all the way to the PCB on the head just to ensure it was not a wire break and that tested out fine, so the break is somewhere inside the potting/coil.
That would be nice. I don't think I'm up to the task, but I'd love it if someone built a jig to re-wind a 1084 deflection yoke. At least that's big and bulky. The r/w head coil is so tiny and I'm all thumbs when it comes to delicate work.
@@retrobitstv Maybe there's a market for someone to make a run of new compatible heads for the Newtronics 1541? - and have them stock them at Console5 or similar.
O.L. = "Open Loop"... a throw back to Telco. More specifically the "battery" circuit between the central office and your home (wired) phone.
hi, great informative video. I thought it would take someone to start producing new cartridges free of this insidious defect. I have a classic 1541 with the lever (and therefore it could fail, but it still works well) I have a 1541 II with this cartridge too and finally a 1541 II with a good cartridge, but whose mechanics make a deadly noise (it is the model with recessed lever and with the disc ejection mechanism when the lever opens)
I worked for Mitsubishi electronics from 84 to 90, 8", 5.25" and 3.5" floppy drives, I was the resident expert at perfect radial and azimuth alignment that had tight screws, as shipping in trucks are bumpy and misaligns heads with not so tight screws. The good ol Brikon FDD tester/exerciser, I knew that equipment like the back of my hand. Good ol memories.
it is not shorted but open. They can be "repared" if one of the two coils is working you can bridge the other coil with a resistor. It will be slower, but will work.
Hey thank you is there any tutorial or forum post about that? Just in case?
that "reparation" gives as a result of unreliable reading, I mean a lot of reading errors, doesn't work well, don't waste your time doing that stupidity...
Bypassing one of the coils with a resistor is an absolutely stupid idea. Who the heck told you that would ever work?
My 1541-II drives with Chinon mechanisms are still going strong 30 years later. I was aware of the Newtronics issues, but did not know that the Mark IIs had a direct correlation between the external case design and the internal mechanism. That is a brilliant tip for buyers! -- JC
is not true what he says in the video, typical youtube guy who has no clue... The one with the flush case can have a D500 or JPN DS-50F, the one with the indent (recession) has a F501M. And there is another version (no recession at all, 1571 style) where I only know one picture on the internet, but never saw that version ever again. The DS50F has in my opinion no difference from the case/looks, but when you have one its easy to find out: The lever on the DS50F is very light any you only have a small click on the down position and it springu up very freely and without much resistence. The D500 has a hard CLICK when you close it and a bit more tension or resistence. If you have those two, its very obvious if you can compare them directly.
I also have one of these that sat for 20 years. Cleaned up. Works like a charm. Little noisey due to oxidation.. but Works perfectly:)
I never worked with Commodere drives but back in the days I repaired lots of FDDs. You can use any head coil from drive with similar geometry. The hardest part is to glue it properly. After you'll need a special disk where zeros are written on track 0 and 1 on other track according to your geometry. Then you have to position head on each track with low level commands and control the alignment with oscilloscope connected to head preamp.
Azimuth needs to be set as well before you glue it. It needs to be inside of about 1/5th of a degree. Is that reasonably achievable or testable prior to gluing? I've never tried to do this.
Wow! I didn't realize that someone actually read my blog posts from 2017! btw. I still didn't say the last word on this topic and want to sort this case out. I am slowly gathering knowledge ... like really slowly as I am kinda overwhelmed by other projects lol. As usual, this was an EXCELLENT VIDEO!
Haha I've come across your post multiple times over the years! Thanks for sharing what you discovered. I'm sure the world would be very interested if there were a workable solution to the problem some day so please keep us posted of any new developments! I know the feeling about being overwhelmed by projects :)
@@retrobitstv Shooting in the dark, but since the moisture seems to cause the issue, wouldn't drying the head completely, in a desert-like conditioning, fix it?
@@UltimatePerfection Disclaimer: I haven't extracted the coil from my bad drive or examined it under a microscope. That said, I believe the issues to be a result of oxidation, not the presence of moisture itself. Over time, oxidation of the delicate wires either causes a short where there shouldn't be, or in my case, a complete break in one or more of the coils. It one were able to extract the coil from the potting, find the break or short with a microscope, and repair the damage, it could conceivably be fixed, but I have neither to tools nor the skill to work with something that small myself and I am not aware of anyone who has successfully repaired one yet and shared info about it :(
Come on! Your posts are gold. I recall the internal SD2IEC one, which encouraged me to start making some :)
@@rapiqui Thank you for warm words sir ;)
Wow, the prices went up insane! In Germany you can buy 1541 drives for 30-50 Bucks in working condition.
Never heard about the bad drive head issue before. Thank you for making the video.
I literally just purchased a 1541 MKII 2 days ago, thankfully the condition of the drive was stated and it was fully working, serviced and head aligned and for 67.00UK ie a really good price. But when I heard you say that they can just go with fault my heart sank, BUT when I looked at the drive it had the recessed lever, cue a big smile. I was lucky, I got a proper retro commodore seller and the product was fully documented before sale. As you say, the little games that some sellers use, ie the powers on or untested is just annoying and usually deliberate, trying to get money for their old dead crap......Thanks Matt, great short video..
There is an "open" on pin 1 of the bad drive, not a "short". The DMM reads infinite ohms on the pin 1 measurements. Pin 1 = OPEN.
Exactly! The day I would get a shorted open circuit I would freak out ha ha
Yup. Noticed that right away. He just miss spoke.
We could afford a C64 in the 80's but never a diskette drive. Some of my friends had one but I kept using tapes till the end. It felt like being a secondary citizen of the C64 universe. Even today when I see a 1541 I feel the same desire to finally have one.
I had the 1541-C model I believe. I also bought the C-64-C with cash from my part time job. Somewhere around $400 I think. I remember playing a ton of Ultima IV.
This is great info! Thanks for sharing. I'm an OG 64 guy who only had the older Alps mechanisms... I did have my days of fighting alignment issues, and had to teach myself how to re-align them. Now I know that if I ever do want to recreate my original setup I should beware the caveats with the later models even more. Thanks again.
Thanks for the great tips! Been thinking of picking up a 1541, since I always like to have a drive available to read physical media "just in case" and/or to be able to make physical media for friends/people in need. I knew there were some "bad" 1541s out there, but didn't really know the details. Until now. :)
THANK YOU! Great information. I did not know this tip. As soon as you mentioned the recessed lever, I hit pause, turned my head to look at my 1541-II sitting to my left and cheered when I saw that my drive lever was not flush!
Thanks for the informative video! I recall wishing my original 1541 had the lever operated mechanism. I thought the push down ALPS 1541 drive lever was weird and clunky. Some friends had the Newtronics version and they felt a lot nicer to use... but here we are 40 years later and my 1541 is still going strong!
Both of my 1541-II drives are Chinon based and work perfectly!
Awesome, glad your drives are still all working! I've only had the one fail so far myself, but I'm going to have to keep an eye open for a Chinon 1541-II I think :)
There is third party still making their version of the 1541. Which when it was reviewed got marks high marks for working with the C64 and not eating your floppy.
The drive head is measuring open, not short.
You are right, I totally saw the O and read it as a 0 and stopped there. I need to pay more attention, that's twice in two videos I've missed something obvious. That said, I did disassemble the drive and checked continuity of pin1 from the connector all the way to the PCB on the head just to ensure it was not a wire break and that tested out fine, so the break is somewhere inside the potting/coil.
Seems like yesterday when I was lusting after these drives for my C16 in the 80's.
Never was able to get one. This brings amazing memories, still feels like living in sci-fi paradise. So amazing!
Glad I have an Alps model! Working great after some chip replacements.
Thant you too to avoid us more headaches 💚
This was a very well done video. Thank you for making it.
That's so rubbish! Newtronics didn't realise that just a few decades after build there'd be a moisture leak? We should start a class action law suit.
Good video. I remember going through two 1541-2 drives in the late eighties before I got fed up and bought a third party, FSD-2 drive. These things are built like a tank and never seem to wear out or go out of alignment and I've only ever came across a couple games that had issues with it. It's still the drive I prefer today. Though I actually have two of the original pull down tab drives in my collection that I got from a yard sale in the mid 90's that still work but they do get hot. I don't really use them much unless I need an extra drive to copy disks with.
Some 23 years ago a friend and I experimented with two 1541's with remarkably different circuit boards, and slightly different mechanisms, with the head and track motor wires coming from different spots but able to reach. We managed to get the mechanism from one (not sure which) to work fully with the other boards, wires carefully routed to avoid snagging. I think both had the "flap" on the front though, so these likely were two revisions of MK1. One appeared completely dead towards the C64, the other had some mechanical issue... it is likely that both were repairable as is, but we managed to Frankenstein one working drive from two non-working ones and we were happy with the result then.
EDIT: 23 years ago (typo).
Thanks for all the research - and sharing this, Matt! Best explanation I've seen yet. :)
Mine from '84 Newtronics 1541 is currently working great, but now I am forewarned that I should probably backup all those disks to another medium.
YW! I think I am going to keep an eye open for a Chinon 1541-II just to have something for the long haul. Of course my 1571s are all fine so far so there's that option too :)
@@retrobitstv well, after this video, prices for those NOT Newtronics will go spice up! I had lot of ALPS and Chinon, just one Nwtx, as I knew the flaw.
When I bought my first used C64 (a few years ago) I went mad trying to troubleshoot the 1541 it came with, thinking that there was some sort of logic-board fault. It took a good month of messing with it to realize that it was an unfixable head problem... I went out and bought another one.
I have an Alps 1541 that marginally works, except the motor sounds like a dying cow... though the 1541-II (with non-recessed lever) I've had since childhood has been working fine, shockingly enough. Thanks to this excellent info I'll have to go check my other drives and see where they stand. I was hoping by now someone could make replacement heads (somehow) so dead drives could be put back into service.
One of the most useful videos on the internet!
I had a 1541 with the Alps mechanism, and at one point I had to take the drive in for alignment and the repairman did the extra step of adding a pin so that it would not lose alignment and that drive worked perfectly after that. The thing still ran hot however.
An interesting presentation, concise and to the point, packed with lots of useful information. Well done! (We'll forgive ya for confusing an air gap with a short. Happens all the time.)
That's one more reason to go for a 1571 instead. If the drive mechanism ever breaks, you can rip one out of a random PC and be on your way. Or even convert it into a poor man's 1581 if you want.
The 1571 on the 128D never failed me.
So... what about those crazy people that just want the 1541 case? I'll give you $20 for your broken drive! 😁
Putting a greaseweazel and shugart drive in it to connect to pc?
Some other options: stick a pi1541 inside the case or build an automated floppy disk cleaner that walks the carriage assembly while applying isopropyl alcohol to a microfiber cloth where the r/w head used to be!
Thank you , really interesting!
Thanks a lot for the great information.
I didn't even know about this. Thanks!
Perfect vid! So, so helpful to us retro-nuts!
Can't wait for "this 1976 vintage 8 track tape player will DESTROY your 8 track tapes!!!"
Never had a problem with my 1541. Also purchased broken 1541's and repaired them myself. Great drive...
I have been looking for this for so long, but i didn’t know the name. The reason for my search is because this is what my grandfather had and he used it to teach me how to use a computer. I miss him but seeing this makes my heart feel warm. Thank you
In 1983 I bought one with money I made over the summer. I was 13, and my C64 was $288 at Kmart. I connected it to an old black and white TV my dad had, but I couldn't afford the 1541 at that time. Had to make more money! But later I was able to buy my own 13" color TV for the monitor and the drive. I had a lot of fun playing games on that machine. I got married in 1990, and I remember one time using it to play a lot of music. The C64 had one of the very best music chips in it of all home computers back then.
My wife and I moved to where we live now shortly after that, and the tragedy is that the Commodore disappeared at some point there. I have no idea what happened to it, and I miss it to this day. Now that I have a 2 year old grandson I wish I had it so that I could do what your grandfather did. He loved you very much to want to show you those things because he knew it would help you...and he knew it is fun! You always try to be the man in your family's lives that your grandfather was in yours. I had a grandfather like yours and that how I try to live.
Have a great life, Benjamin!
Just checked both of my old 1541-II's and both are the newer ones with the recessed front case! Woot!
My OG 1541 lasted for six years of near constant use. My first MK2 barely lasted a year conveniently out of warranty. Good to see everyone here keeping the old doorstops alive.
I've just discovered an O.L. between pin 5 and everything else on my newly acquired newtronics 1541. Boo. Thanks for this great video. Wish I had watched this earlier.
I had an Enhancer 2000 floppy drive back in the '80s, which was quieter and sleeker. It was probably faster too. I never had any compatibility problems with it.
Oh noes....ignorance is bliss. I have been running 4 of these for years and didn't know this. A small realignment here and there, but now that I know this, watch em all bite the dust. Thanks a lot.
Sorry about that. May the odds be ever in your favor!
Great video. I've got my equipment in the attic. I'm hoping all of it still works, but I'll likely have it checked out by a repair guy, before hooking it up.
I'm especially hoping all of my floppies are still readable. I've already got a XUM1541 adapter lying around. The guy I bought it from, was able to read all of his!
I had one around 2005-2010 and it still worked, even in a humid climate. Sold it off still working around 2012.
I actually learned this from Ray Carlsen when he was helping me troubleshoot a faulty 1541 I got. I got a Alps drive mechanism from Germany for cheap listed as working and swapped them out. The DOS ROM was also bad on that drive, but I got that working
thanks for video. this is fantastic as always! without knowing this problem I bought 2 untested 1541 drives. I knew it was not working for sure before I bought it. both of them are powered on with LED lit but that's all. luckily I fixed one of them by replacing IC but the other one never had any improvement even if I did same trouble shooting like other working one.
Now I understand that It was not about IC at all... oh well I was lucky to have at least 1 working one :)
its great seeing this video about commodore drives I had 1581 hard drive before,
very useful!
@4:20 the Pin 1 is not short - your multimeter shows +inf resistance, which is OPEN circuit. The pin 1 is therefore rotten, eroded, open, disconnected, etc..
You are correct; thanks for pointing that out! I disassembled the drive and checked continuity of pin1 from the connector all the way to the PCB on the head just to ensure it was not a wire break and that tested out fine, so the break is somewhere inside the potting/coil.
i have a bunch of those drive all they are untested but i will test them all because you show us now how to do it ! thx for this video !
I had two original 1541s. Luckily, they always worked like a charm. And I gave them quite a workout in the eighties
I have to say, of all my many C64 drives, the 1541 II is my favorite and that includes a 1571 and 1581.
I still have 1541-II for my Commodore 64C,
and it still works.
I even filmed a video of a gameplay ROAD RUNNER on a disk for RUclips.
😺👍🕹️
Good video!!
Ah memories of the 80s thanks for posting. Way back when I got my Commodore 64 instead of the 1541, I got the Indus GT floppy drive loved it and I still kept it all these years. Yeah I'm hoarder.
Another terrible secret (in old 1541) is the power filter integrated into the C14 socket. Due to possible sparking and "magic" mass, it may cause a short circuit, lack of electricity, damage to electronics and even fire.
Can't thank you enough for this video.
Good to know, I didn't know the later 1541's were prone to this kind of failure. I got some of my dad's old C64 stuff (fortunately my mom had kept it around) including multiple systems, some old disks, and one older-model 1541 drive... Generally I don't feel I need another 1541 in my life but I have entertained the possibility, especially for the more compact 1541-II version. Wouldn't have been super fun to get another drive that's big and slow and heavy but also irreparably failed.
Believe it or not, I've never owned an old style 1541. My first Commodore was a 64C with a 1541-II, so when I got into retro of course I sought out the things I used to have. I've not really had any desire to own an original 1541, but if a nice Alps one comes along for the right price I'd still consider it.
Man I miss my c64. What a great system
OL means overload. It is telling you that the resistance value exceeds the range of the meter. A short circuit is one with a lower than normal resistance. This head has a very high resistance (considered open circuit). There is no short in the head. The corrosion has eaten the enameled wire away
Thank you for your video! :-)
I really wanted one of these. We had the cassette tape drive but my friend had the floppy drive and you could load a game of Spy Vs. Spy in mere minutes!
Thanks for the important PSA!
I have 1541's coming out my ears... Luckily about 90% of them I have been able to get working!
I had the early version, complete with four No 2 pencils in the bottom screw holes to elevate it for ventilation. I never had a problem with it, or the single hole punch I used to turn my floppy disks from one-sided to two-sided.
I remember when the 1541-2's came out, but mine still worked so I never got one. I did have the 1571(?), as I bought it when I got my C128.
7:26 - Yeah "Powers on" usually just means the power LED works. Some sellers will use even more deceptive (or outright false) language like "boots" or "starts up" - indicating that maybe a cooling fan or hard drive might be spinning as well. And "worked last time I tried it" of course, is totally meaningless.
I got tired of fixing my drives so some years ago I shelved my 9x 1541 drives (3 have Newtronics mechs but are working) and mostly just use an Ultimate1541-II cart but if I want to use a real floppy I use one of my 4x 1581 drives. 6 years ago I reversed the 1581 drive PCB and made an exact 1:1 reproduction (exact to within 0.1mm in every aspect) so now I just use that one drive for everything.
Fascinating. I didn't know about this. I have a couple drives, they have been laying around for literally decades... I'm afraid to see if they still work! LOL
You may be able to bake in oven at 200F for 12h to drive out moisture of epoxy. Worked for a chainsaw coil of mine.
Excellent video. I had the original tab 1541 and never had a problem back when. I emulate now. At some point I’d like to require my old setup. All I’d care about is cosmetics. Wouldn’t care if it functioned just for display. We are entering a time where these will start to consistently fail so anything that says powers on not tested and they can’t even jury rig it to test on a new TV is telling you it’s broken. And like you say even if it works at this instant during shipping something could happen.
I just checked my 1541-II and it's got the recessed lever. I also have the "revised" OG 1541. Both still work, I guess I'm lucky.
That’s nuts!
I used to cut pencils off and push 4 of them into the screw holes on the bottom to raise the whole drive up by 3 to 4 inches so more air could get around them. I also made a cylinder with a piece of paper and set it on top of the vent in the back to make a chimney.
Had this one and never had problems.
This makes me really glad I went with an SD2IEC and completely skipped the disk drive and floppy disks for my C64. I still use floppies with my Apple //e because I already have stacks and stacks of them.
Thanks for the video. I just checked my 1541-II now. Sadly, it's a newtronics. The handle is not recessed into the plastic. I got it for free quite a few years ago, so not a loss. And when I tried it a few years ago it was working. Haven't tested it since. I use my Turbo Chameleon 64 V2s for my 1541 needs. Too much hassle to deal with real floppies and a clunky floppy drive that needs it's own PSU.
Hopefully it still works and will continue to do so, like my primary 1541-II. I prefer to use a modern solution (1541UII+ or SD2IEC) for day-to-day usage but it's nice to have a working floppy drive for the occasions you want to use it. The "bad" 1541-II came with the recent auction lot so it's not a big loss since I didn't really pay much of anything for it.
Well that's new to me!
I know that some production numbers had some cooling issues but in fact is was one of the better disk drives in those days. 😄I never encountered problems at least, not more than a head cleaning every now and then.
Nice video. I have a lot of drives, but none has failed like that. Still, I was not aware about this problem
I have so many of these I have a literal wall of 1541s in my basement. Good for parts and the odd movie shoot. :)
My 1541 workin to this day. Disk drive from first photo but with diffrent close mechanism beige colour. Two 1541-II units of My friend was break down within a short period of use.
I'm trying to fix a 1541 right now. I have a bad voltage regulator. But I'm going to check the drive with my multimeter so I don't waste anymore time. Thanks.
If the problem is moisture, my first thought would be to try to find someone with a good vacuum pump and let the head sit in a vacuum for some time.
Unless, of course, the problem is that something has corroded away.
Another idea: AFAIK there are nutjobs who make audiophile phono cartridges, that hand-wire coils with impossibly thin wires for them. Would it be possible to call any of them into service to make new coils for the head?🙂
I read about failing Mitsumi drives years ago which made me look for alternatives. However both my Mitsumi 1541C still work fine to this day (both came "untested" from ebay). All of my 1541 drives are modded 220V->240V. I had two other 1541 giving me read errors because of defective bridge rectifiers on 5V, and a 1541-II giving me read errors because the cap in the potted PSU had dried up. Just because your Mitsumi 1541 starts giving you read errors, it doesn't have to have a broken head. And I'd still buy them untested if the offer is good.
And a 1541C with the opened jumper is so nicely silent :). I modded two of my drives by replacing the transformers according to the video by Adrian Black. So no overheating there anymore. And the drives became so light xD
Oh and of course, luckily, no read errors here (all incl. 2x 1541, 1x 1541C, 2x 1541-II)
@@katho8472 My C models both have a board that doesn't support the track 0 sensor, but one drive has it actually fitted. I was thinking of modding the boards to support the sensor to reduce the risk of damage. I like the weight of the drive and won't mod the transformer out. The drives look and feel, the sound and its weight bring back my childhood memories like it was yesterday ;-)
@@Shmbler Well I mainly modded mine to not fry the chips ;)
I repaired the head on my C128 D. It wasn't easy, but I did it. The wire is very delicate and it took me 2 weeks to do.
Just took a look at my two 1541-IIs. Turns out one of them is a Chinon and the other is a Newtronics. I haven’t really seen other than Alps model 1541s here. Even the C models have Alps mechs, although in those, I’ve seen the Newtronics mechs.
I had the original 1541 drive, with the long board, and it was the drive that everybody wanted because they failed much less often. Further, we had a program that used to run that would align the drive head by yanking the head back and forth as hard as they could. I got that drive along with my C64 and a Gemini dot matrix printer for $1100 bucks (or I should say that my DAD got me that as I was all of 12 or so at the time.)
Such drives can be repaired! It needs another defective drive (the heads still working) to switch over the head assembly. It may be difficult to do this and you have to adjust the drive before using, but the drive is working after the repair. In my workplace (a HP Museum), I have a lot of drives to deal with. The most difficult repair was on a HP Vectra QS/20 with two 5,25" drives. One was defective, the other one works fine. The difficulty was to match up the drive, so data written on drive A was reading on drive B (the defective one) and the other way too.
I had to replace one of my Newtronics mechanisms last year due to this issue! Luckily I found a decent Alps mechanism to replace it with.
It looked like the first measurement indicated an open not a short. A short would read 0.00 not OL. If it is an open it could very well be a broken wire at from constant flexing back and fort. I would make sure that it is not the case before declaring it beyond repair.
i have 10 of those in 80's we are commodore re seller---i have still a lot of commodore stuff
I don't miss the constant realignments. I invested in an Indus GT drive, and was a wonderful upgrade
Back in the day I had the OG Alps 1541 and it never failed on me.
Glad my SX-64 and all SX-64s have the Alps drive mechanism. While it does get alignment issues, it's always fixable.
This video made me test out my Commodore 1541 drive. Which, yes, has the Newtronics mech in it. Mine's not exactly in the best environment either, being down below ground level. But I put in my copy of Ace Of Aces, typed the load command and low and behold, it loaded right up. But now I gotta worry about when the head will fail. Hmmmm.
I got the lever down version of the 1541 back in '86 and used it until '95. Never had any issues with it at all. Living in California might have helped with the moisture issue
I remember having one of these with my C-64 back in the early 80s. Didn't really have any problems with mine.