One thing I never understood with the hatred Ken gets is the idea that no one brings up that Ken is just a kid. A kid who lost his mother at a young age who saw it happen right before his very eyes. His seething hatred for Shinjiro is more than likely an amalgamation of PTSD and his immaturity which is to be expected as Ken again IS. A. CHILD. Who wouldn't hate their mother's killer at an age of like what 11? Another thing about this is that Shinjiro died for Ken in a sense of atonement and I truly believe that Ken gets this. The idea that Ken should be blamed for Shinjiro's death becomes moot when Takaya enters the picture. Lastly no one seems to talk about the idea that Ken was going to kill himself after his revenge. Ken again because of immaturity, PTSD whatever you want to call it finds himself at a loss of purpose without someone to avenge. So what does Shinjiro do? He dies... the same way Ken's mother did... protecting Ken. This channels Ken's passion towards moving forward, letting go of his hatred and realizing that he needs to live out of respect that his mother and Shinjiro's sacrifice. Did Ken want Shinjiro to die? Absolutely. Did Ken, by bringing Shinjiro out and away from SEES bring about Shinjiro's death? You could make an argument for that. However, did Ken wanting to receive some form of atonement from Shinjiro expect him to die the same way his mother did? I don't think so. That is what makes Shinjiro's death so beautiful and so tragic.
You pretty much sum it up. Part of what disturbs me about some of the fandom's attitude is they're wishing death on a PTSD-suffering 11 year old who's pretty much stated to have been suicidal. Someone Ken's age should NOT have to go through all that, and on top of that people feel he's not deserving of life just for how he acted at one point. I find that a lot of child characters tend to get hated in a lot of media. A lot of people don't realise that an 11 year old is obviously not going to have the wisdom and maturity of an adult, so them being immature doesn't make them a badly-written character. (Granted, there ARE badly-written child characters, but the point still stands) One thing I like about Ken's P4 Ultimax arc is it explores how Ken really WANTS to go back to being a normal kid, but can't after everything he's experienced. It's a sad, but accurate, look at the downside of being a "kid hero".
BigKlingy well, i haven't played p3, but i know a bit of the story, i kinda hate Ken now, But i'll look in his p4a Ultimax story, and i can kinda understand the unfair hate he can get because he's still a child who has has experienced soo much. And think Shinji qould have wanted Ken to blossom like he did, and i am sure he's happy because of that, and he maybe would condemn our hatred. I'll try to battle with him if i ever play p3p, and maybe romance him cz his SL seems interesting! Great vid!!!! 😍😍😍😍😉
Ken is actually one of my favorite characters in this game due to his character arc but I don't speak of it. Ken is not a 16 year old who's mind is much more developed than an elementary schooler. He's not mature enough.
Honestly, I've noticed this kind of thing a lot with child characters - people almost seem to be HARDER on them than grown adults. I kind of get the impression people wouldn't be nearly as hard on someone older doing what Ken does.
Anyone else angry that the only adult in the group, the Chairman, who knew that Shinjiro killed Ken’s mother didn’t do anything about the situation between Shinjiro and Ken?
Tippacanoe, plus it probably would’ve started more drama I guess you can say between the group so it would’ve delayed this whole ending the world thing
I think people also often forget that it was very plainly implied that Shinjiro knew Ken was the child of the woman his Persona killed. When Akihiko went to talk to Shinji in front of Iwatodai, that when Shinji realized who this "Amada" person Aki mentioned. I also think this was around the time Shinji made up his mind and decided to come back to SEES. Hell, even when Ken "lured" Shinjiro to the back alley, I'm pretty sure Shinji mentioned how he knew this was coming. If Shinji knew it was Ken that was the new Persona user, if he understood that Ken would be, understandably, enraged by what Shinjiro did, and most all WILLING JOINED BACK TO S.E.E.S AFTER EXPLICITLY NOT WANTING TO AFTER FINDING OUT KEN WAS APART OF IT, Shinji could have easily avoided the situation if he wanted. But that's what people don't realize, he didn't want to avoid the situation. Shinji quit S.E.E.S because of what he did to Ken's mom. He felt like he deserved to die-- which he was slowly dying regardless. He wanted this for Ken's peace of mind and for his own vindication to absolve his sins. So blaming Ken for everything is just a blatant oversight of Shinji's wishes. His mind was made up way before that encounter.
I'm an Asian who can read Japanese, Chinese, and English. I think Ken is one of the most complex and interesting characters in my Otaku life. Unfortunately from my experience, in those fanbases, only western fanbase incredibly rude to Ken with ridiculous reasons just makes me disappointed, disgust and no tolerance. But I also know not all the western fans like that of course and you did an excellent argument for him, thank you very much. I just wish developers wouldn't disregard their character again as they did for Ken before those redemptions (PQ P3M P4AU P3WM P3D).
I do really like Shinji and his death was sad. Although I do not blame Ken at all for Shinjiro's death. He is a kid, and in the end, Takaya was the one fully responsible for his death. The other SEES members could have probably stopped Ken, but with Takaya, there was no discussion. Ken grew up from this and became a better person.
Dang I just found this video and you did a really great job defending Ken! He's actually my favorite character in the series due to the fact that I find him relatable in some aspects. Another thing to point out on whose to "blame" for the incident is the Kirijo group. They covered Ken's mothers death as an accident and that made Ken really angry. In his door to the past it shows him being pretty much laughed at by the police when he tried to explain what happened to his mother and that made Ken believe that he couldn't rely on adults. Another thing that ticks me off about the fandom is of how they disregard how the characters in game would have felt if Ken died instead of Shinjiro. Shinjiro would have probably have felt even worse than before that the child he was trying to protect from such a fate died. I mean, Ken WAS A CHILD who still had his whole future ahead of him. The reason why the party members wouldn't feel as awful as Ken dying than Shinjiro is because of Shinjiro's last words "this is how it should be". His death was a way of redemption and even so he didn't have to go meet up Ken, he could have let Ken take the bullet, even worse Takaya could have probably fucked up Ken's mind even more with his words and pontentinally killing him right then and there. (Maybe Ken could have joined strega?? tbh if that did happen it would have made strega a lot more interesting and a threat) So really killing off Ken would have lead their oh-so-precious Shinji to a fate worse than death. Since by the end of the game he still would have died because of Persona cancer and he would have died full of regrets and self hatred. The way he died was the best he could have, it lead to Ken becoming a better person and someone who is excited to grow up and live on.
That's a good point: Ken dying here would leave Shinjiro even more devastated than he currently is, and would NOT be a good fate for his character. Also, is it bad that the term "Persona cancer" kind of made me laugh? I've never seen that plot point described in that way before.
the fandom should chill. OUT. he's a KID, a PTSD'd kid at that who lost his mother. we can't really blame him. he probably would have not killed him, and both shinji and ken would have come out of this with a huge load off thier hearts. but NOOO, hippie jesus wanabe reverse fortune demon just HAD to kill shinji. If you hate ken because of this, you are just letting the revolver toting devil hippie win.
TheBraveGallade yea if I was in that situation I might have reacted similarly that’s a question you should ask yourself before you start hating here everyone
Okay, good thing you actually talked about all of this. I personally really like Shinjiro; I actually liked him more once I went the Female Protagonist route in P3P. When he died, I felt sad and all because of that fact, but I never hated Ken. I knew that, while Ken wanted Shinjiro dead, he didn't know how to really handle this situation, and besides, Takaya was the killer; not Ken. He wasn't to blame. While he indirectly caused this to happen due to him calling Shinjiro there, he couldn't have possibly predicted that Takaya would show up and try to kill them both. I'll admit; initially I didn't like Ken all that much, but as you said, that was intentional. When I realized that, and when I saw him move on after that fact, I actually liked him a bit better. He was useful in battle, sure, but before then, my opinion of him wasn't a good one. Persona Q only accentuated my liking of Shinjiro and Ken, so yeah. I don't approve of the way some of the fandom blame Ken over all this, but I guess everyone has their own way of interpreting a scene, as warped as it may seem. Can't really change that if they think that's the way to see it, I guess.
Actually, I was trying to think of a "What if Shinjiro survived", and the only believable way he could survive is only if Ken was shot by Takaya (which would kill him), and every possible aftermath that I can think about leads to very dark outcomes. Either Shinjiro goes into a rampage that would end with either him or Takaya (or even both) getting killed, or Takaya escapes, and Shinjiro leaves SEES to hunt him down, which would lead to him fighting both Takaya and Jin. And in case he won, he would either move on from his failures and rejoin SEES with a new Persona until he dies, keeps waiting for his death to come, or he commits suicide as he had nothing else left to do.
Line 11 from "he would either..." to "...until he dies" I don't see it that dark, since he got a new persona and keeps fighting with them. Until he dies? Yeah sure the meds that he used to take is the reason that will kill him but until then no one knows when he would have died. Wouldn't shinjiro surviving affect the story? At least the new personas of the group, as in they won't aweken to them (except mitsuru, diffrent reason)
12:10 Isn't reacting by withing death on the one you see as guilty what Ken did and tried to execute? If that is how they actually feel, then they are ironically act like Ken did before and during that scene. Unlike Ken, they aren't grow up as a result. That's pretty sad if I'm actually understanding things correctly. And it sounds you said the exact same thing I was think at 12:50. A good video and thanks for explaining the developer's intentions. that made the scene much more understandable.
It’s a few months late but I just recently found this and watched your videos. I’m glad you actually took the time to talk about this event, considering, in my opinion, it’s the turning point where the story gets ready to enter it’s second and final stage. The moment entirely is emotional and was painful to watch, but seeing you break it down shows how important this scene is to what’s coming up.
I admit I mostly did the video because the fandom used to take this scene entirely the wrong way, and that really angered me. For a while, people were acting as if Ken literally murdered Shinjiro, which defeats the whole point of this scene. Shinjiro sacrificed his life to save someone he knew hated him. That's one of the noblest things anyone can do, and it's what really opens Ken's eyes and lets him develop. There were also a ton of people who wished Ken died here, which is also missing the point. Thankfully things have got a lot better now, especially due to Ultimax and Q developing Ken a lot more.
BigKlingy I can understand people’s frustration towards Ken, but I agree, it’s definitely not the point. I think what Shinjiro did was fantastic and lead to the perfect death scene, and it helped Ken grow and I started liking Ken more when it happened. I’m also glad Arena Ultimax and Q developed Ken more because fans are definitely nicer about it than they were before. Your video is a good service to the fandom to let people know what the truth really is in such a dramatic and heart breaking scene.
To be honest, I disliked Ken from the start. The reason: he was like me. This scene got me to think hard about my life, and how I am always stuck in the past. But seeing him move on brings hope that people can change and become better.
i remember the first time i played P3:FES. I will never forget how sad i was not only for shinji, but also for ken. As shinji well said while he was dying: "kid, you are just a kid". Ken was forced to mature with the contradiction of being grateful towards his mother killer. And that shit is not easy at all. And you could tell how shinji was tortured by the idea of hurting ken because of what happened. It is a tragic scene, but it is a well scripted scene also.
I relay like video's like this one where people just talk about their thoughts on certain topics. I agree 100% on everything you said. Ken absolutely does not deserve all the raw hatred he gets. And while he isn't my favorite Persona, he's grown on me over the years. October 4th is one of the most impactful moments in any game I've ever seen, and is one of the moments that made me fall in love with the Persona series in general. Though just in genera,l November 22 is strait up one of my favorite moments in gaming period. xD
Ken is a prime example that no matter how well written a character is, people will still bitch about him being a "badly written character" just because they can't directly relate to him. If Ken was more badass looking or we had a transition to an adult Ken who is muscular and scary looking, you wouldn't see anyone bitching about him.
Persona fans are stupid like that. Ken, Yukari, Teddie, Morgana (and probably more I'm forgetting) all get so much hate for no reason just because fans miss the point of their entire character. It's honestly ironic how the Persona series is all about the well written characters, but most Persona fans don't bother with looking any deeper than the surface level.
I wouldn't consider Shinjiro's kanji being "Life" a sick twisted joke; rather, I would just call it accurate. From what we can see from Shinjiro's time in the game, we can see that he values life. Sure, he was willing to give it up to Ken, but he did this not put of fear or dread. But because he thought if he could confront Ken he was accepting of that life which he lived. When he learns of Ken's other motive, his reactions change, but his motivation stays the same, trying to help Ken. This isn't only in this demonstration of this; you can see it from the creative activities: cooking. Much time has been spent asking "what is the meaning of life." However, as a philosopher, we can say that, formulated in this way, it is a bad question. What does life mean? No. What does life do? What can life do? Life can create. What is cooking? An act of creation. It is also a special act of creation. Why? Because it is an act which can help others. I may not be up on Greek mythology; however, before modern medicine we had what was called Dietetics, literally dieting (super diet food!). When someone wasn't feeling well, was sick, was off balance, then they would change their diet to heal themselves. Ancient medicine, in the west at least, was changing ones diet. We can see this today in places like soup kitchens. This is to say that diet is still important, and by cooking we can help other by giving them food. Without food they'd die. So. I think we can find a more subtle interpretation of Shinjiro that isn't just a sick joke. That Shinjiro saved Ken by making him hunger for life.
I feel it is a beautiful irony that those who hate Ken after Shinjiro's death failed to process their grief in exactly the same way Ken did. They became the very thing they want to kill.
As far as Ken goes, up until he got Kala-Nemi, I thought of him to be basically a worse Akihiko in terms of gameplay(I did use him just to give him a fair chance) and in terms of personality, he didn't impress me. However, once Ken got Kala-Nemi, he became my main healer (yes, I prefer him over Yukari) and that's also when his social link (I played on the female route) started to impress me.
I often see him as a malleable member(or he woulda been if in p3 era light attacks had more variety and he does NOW with p3re) he could be a damage dealer, all rounder, healer. it mimics how at his age, he could end up doing a lot with his life
I remember the first time playing P3P (as that one was available to me) and how much of an impact it had (and still has) on me. Shinjiro reminded me of a boy I was dating at the same time as I was playing P3P. This boy had shaggy brown hair, wore a knitted beanie, and came off as intimidating at first but was very sweet. He told me to make sure to spend time with Shinjiro, as he already played Persona 3 before we met. When October 4th happened, I put down my PSP and bawled like a baby. Even though I followed through the steps to save Shinjiro, I still cried. As for Ken, I saw him more as a son. Not somebody who needed protection and to be babied, but someone who needed compassion, guidance and love. It tore my heart to pieces to hear Ken’s shrill scream. Hell, I’m tearing up just typing this. I know this sounds kind of childish for a 27 year old woman, but I can’t bring myself to play the Male Protagonist’s route. Watching the cutscene on RUclips, and seeing the funeral scene in the Midsummer Knight’s Dream hurt more. I also like the comparison between Shinjiro’s moon social link and Akinari’s sun social link. Two sides of the same coin. It is genuinely tragic what happened to both Shinjiro and Ken, as Ken will never have a normal life after that.
Also as an added not because I forgot about this, but Ken also learns Hama skills naturally through level ups. He does Akihiko’s job in a different way, but is still very valuable because of those Hama skills. It has saved me many times to have Ken casting a Hamaon at the right time. I genuinely can’t see why people hate him so much. In this dorm we respect Ken and the variety he brings to the team. 🫡
Cmon it's Takaya fault an he should for it pay! I can't wait to serve him the most! Atleast this makes it a redemption for another character to get better not become Ken was never a bad kid nor was he irritating he was alright. I never hated him and I definitely find him useful in the party just another human! Fans need to chill out by the way and think logically an objectively.
Hell, even Aki found out that Shinji took those pills that Strega gave him (which are supposed to keep his Persona from going out of control) and told him about the side effects, and it was before the 6th Full Moon mission!
I just wish that we had more scenes with Shinjiro. Not necessarily with the entire party or with the main character, but with his old friends Mitsuru and Akihiko. It would've made their pain from the loss a lot more powerful. With that said, this is still in a sick way a highlight of the game.
I never really liked how Shinjiro can survive in the PSP version. It doesn't ruin the event for me, but it jut lessens the impact it originally had. I understand the want to keep Shinjiro alive, hell I was very tempted myself, but it just didn't feel right for the development of characters like Ken and Akihiko. That's just my opinion though, and I understand anyone who chose to save Shinjiro.
Yeah in some ways it does feel a bit weird. While Akihiko's development I can see still happening, Ken's I feel really only makes sense if Shinjiro actually dies. There's also the fact that him surviving doesn't impact the plot at all since he goes into a coma for the rest of the game anyway. The only change it makes it a possible choice during the ending, and even then that requires you to romance him AND be on a New Game Plus.
@@GaeaRage0798 To be fair I think the game implies hes going to die anyway regardless of whether or not you save him as Takaya says "He doesn't have much longer" which kind of makes him showing up at the end of the game pointless
Honestly the fact that Ken after Takaya asked about the support person, he knew that shinjiro would likely not tell getting himself killed and ken said it was him so he’d die instead, that shows character that he would die in place or at least before the one he hated
as someone who has just seen these events for the first time a few hours ago i guess here are some thoughts i dont blame ken i even think him wanting revenge makes sense he is just a kid and shinjiro death helps both ken and akihiko develop as characters overall i see the events that transpired as a good thing for developing the characters mainly ken and akihiko
This is a thought that's not really specific to this game, just something I think in general, but I guess I can mention it here. I don't really like the notion that writers have to pull off a "balancing act" regarding character deaths, making you attached but not TOO attached before they die. In real life, death just happens. It doesn't conveniently happen only to people whom you have exactly a moderate amount of attachment to. It could happen to someone you don't care for, and it could happen to someone you love completely. Don't get me wrong; of course it's still possible to write a death badly. But I don't agree with the idea that a fictional death requires so much foreshadowing and balancing of attachment, when real-life death simply happens without regard for your feelings in the matter. Anyway, thank you for another good discussion. I always enjoy your commentary on video games and stories.
I get that, but I've just seen way too many deaths in fiction that are sudden in a way that doesn't feel realistic, it just feels like bad writing. FF7's major death is an example of how you do sudden deaths right. One early in FE Path of Radiance as well. I still feel that fiction is different from reality. With fiction, you're aware there are writers behind everything, and that there can be no freak accidents: everything happens because it was specifically written that way. If the death fails to get the intended emotional response out of the audience, then, from a writing standpoint, there may as well have not been a death at all. What you described can be done well, but you have to be careful or genre-savvy audiences won't see it as "true to life", they'll see it as "what a cheap way to add drama". This is probably just the literary critic in me talking though. I can be pretty harsh on writing sometimes. But it is also really annoying when a potentially really interesting character gets killed off after minimal screentime.
"Sudden death that doesn't feel realistic, it just feels like bad writing" - that's a really good way to describe it. Thanks; I feel that I understand your point better now. Death is really hard to write well, and I try not to be too tough in judging it because I know death happens suddenly in real life, but you're right that there's a difference between writing a sudden death realistically and writing one that's just a cheap grab for drama.
Actually one thing about what you mentioned about Akihiko's Social Link in the female route is I've seen that some people ended up starting the Social Link a bit later in the game than intended due to one specific requirement you need to start the Social Link, being that you need to be a Queen Bee, AKA, have level 4 Charm, and everyone knows how tedious trying to rank up your Social Stats is just to do/start a Social Link/Confidant, especarlly new players.
FeMC's social links are pretty crazy in general, you've got several on short timers and others with either really high stat requirements or convoluted flags.
@@BigKlingy Well, most of these are Social Links you never had in the male route and they're specifically made for the female route as well. So, what else can you expect?
Wait Ken knew it was Shinji the entire time? I thought he connected the dots a month before when Aki and Shinji are talking about it. Also a theory I heard is that even though they lose their memories it kind of stays with them, and that's why Ken couldn't kill Shinji
You are correct. Ken just said he wanted to find the killer, but apparently he didn't see who it was, but knew it was teenager using a "magical horse" (look his answer cutscene). Also, in portable, he sees Aki and Shinji talking and instantly recognizes the former, but not the latter, which implies that he didn't know it since the beginning. Here is the transcript: > At that moment... > Ken came out from a nearby store... Ken: Huh? Oh, it's Sanada-san. .....? Who's he talking to? I guess it'd be rude to butt in... Akihiko: We saw someone die right before our eyes, too... But, it's been two years since then... Shinjiro: ..... Akihiko: How long do you plan to beat yourself up over it? You're always at that spot behind the station, even though you don't hang out with the crowd there. Shinjiro: It doesn't matter. It was my fault and it can't be erased. What difference does it make if I come to terms with it? It won't change anything. This isn't the same as what happened to Miki. Akihiko: Shinji... Shinjiro: That's enough already. I just want to forget it ever happened. [They walk off] Ken: Two years ago... ..... It can't be... ..... So his name is Shinji, huh...? Most people assume he knew it since the beginning since this cutscene happens quite before October and is quite forgettable, which is why I think they changed Ken's discovery that Shinji was the killer in the manga (Shinji summons his persona and Ken recognizes it and connects the dots) and in the movies (same thing as the manga(
Ken and Shinji are 2 of my favourite characters in the persona series. and I was really sad when Shinji died, but i didn't blame Ken. It just made me want to take Strega, mainly Takaya, even more. And also I find it pretty unacceptable for people to want Ken to die since HE IS A CHILD!!!! That's just not ok for anyone to want a kid to die because they blame him for the death of one of their favourite characters
True i nearly cried playing through this game... Funny story, i picked persona 3 knowing nothing about the game nor series... I just happened to pick a game that some guy is buying at that moment.. And voila i am happy i did that when i'm a junior high schooler lol
I didn’t really like Ken much and honestly I still don’t, but I respect his character arc. I think it’s mainly because there’s other characters that he reminds me of that I don’t like. I also don’t think I was super attached to Shinjiro until after his death. I like his “Aidos, asshole” after battle, but I knew he was the most likely to die if anyone at all. Towards the very end of the game, I found the recordings of each character and for some reason got pretty emotional while watching Shinji’s where he watches the cooking show, and Akihiko saying “you see that Shinji?” After battles made me like him more and more. That idea of sacrifice and just the fact that I kinda missed him made him become probably my favorite male character in the game.
*Takes a deep breath in* Ken is a character I liked at first out of concept, having a kid fight alongside these teens to near-adults was super cool. (A similar feeling to having Koromaru as a party member) As I went through most of the game, I was thinking a little less of him. I still used him since I already swore that I would use this character mainly because of all the hate surrounding him, but I was still growing slightly less attached. Then these events happened, and I started warming up to him. He is probably at the bottom 3 for me, but I still really like his character arc and growth.
So, i knew about the penultimate ending of FES Journey. As such how it ends was not what I expected that death to be. It felt... anticlimactic because I didn’t really understand what thematically was going on. In contrast, because of seeing Shinjiro in the opening scene for The Answer scenes in FES as well as hearing critical and victory voice clips for The Answer in other videos, I was NOT expecting Shinjiro’s death. And since I was doing Persona 3 Portable FeMC as the first time I was able to actually beat the game and get that far, I wasn’t prioritizing Shinjiro’s Social Link since I didn’t know what was going to happen to him and it hurt s o badly since I loved his personality in the Social Link...
It's quite a shame that I always knew Shinjiro died. I mean.... the P3 vanilla opening says it all, and it adds up whenever other fans said "Oh, by the way, don't bother with Shinji. Don't ask why, just *don't* do it, okay?" The death just didn't have that punch. Ken is genuinely one of my favourite characters from the game, and the fact that I'm alone in this pains me. The argument still stands: Ken was just a kid.
Yeah, man... When I play a Persona Game for the 1st. Time (Persona Q Hehe) I didn't know the "truth" behind Ken... The truth that he is SO hated. But a hatred of the most insignificant and lack of logic. Man... This just a Game. Obviously a Game with a True and Deep Message for every one of us, but been anger with a KID?! At least for me, I felt bad for Ken. He's just a poor kid who needed to deal with life by his own and with the lack of a parent to cuide him for the good. And these last days I found him VERY useful in Combat. I was speechless of how versatile he is. So... I don't know why I "need" to hate Ken. Takaya was the guilty here and, sadly... We lost a Wonderful Character like Shinji is. I honestly feel even way more Happy that I can play more with him in PQ, but yeah... The reality is there. I'm glad to hear your Opinion, bro. By people like you is what sharing my Japanese Games and Anime Tastes with another people un the Fandom stills worth it. You did it very well... I'm still sad for the sect that still DON'T Understand the things how it really is, but well... Just we only need to avoid them. There are people who really take this seriously. P. D: Ironicly, this happened to me twice. When I watched Toradora for the 1st. Time. I never knew how hatred that Anime was. But Meh! I LOVE that Show no matter what
Fortunately, it feels opinions have changed now. People coming to Persona 3 these days have greater awareness of trauma and mental issues and realize that Ken is a pretty well-written portrayal. Same with Yukari.
Gonna skip to this video bc I remember LOVING it when I was younger and played persona 3 for the first time. I just did October 4th a few hours ago and…shinji is one of the best persona characters for me hell best rpg characters I will always love this part of persona 3 and I’ll always love this video. Now my negative opinion of ken isn’t because of October 4th hell I feel like shit when I think about poor ken on the 4th..I hate him because his disgusting social link.
Great video, I wonder how Reload will change this scene. I would love to hear an updated video after Reload comes out since it could change a bit and it has been some time. I didn't care too much about the Shinji/Ken story line in the game. The movies made this scene so much more powerful for me and your analysis explains the scene and the buildup very well. I feel like the Persona 3 cast is the most polarizing persona cast which in my opinion makes SEES an especially intriguing group. To me I find Junpei to be annoying in the beginning and loved Yukari calling him out! Junpei said that hanging out with me would be a sausage fest and I never mentally recovered from that to this day. I liked his arc with Chidori and I was glad his persona changed when Chidori puts her life force in him. I may not like him but I appreciate that he had some redeeming parts to his character and although I may not like him I think he is a decent character in general. I wish people could see Ken in a similar way where death can't be taken back but going forward Ken understands what Shinji meant by shouldering the burden and has Shinji's kind dying words to keep himself moving forward. This game does a good job of creating characters that can evict strong negative emotions but still be respectable in the end. In my opinion the game fails most with Strega considering they are not only pushovers in battle but also don't really have much to like about them except Chidori. I think the characters could be improved with some more focus on the atrocities that they went through before Mitsuru was a part of SEES. Seeing how these three went through an extreme change when they were used in experiments with artificial personas it would be cool to be able to see part of what they went through and the repercussions of it. They aren't a threat in the game but they aren't too interesting either so they need some more added to them and I think showing how they came to be would be a great way to improve the experience of the game and have more details about them both individually and as a group.
Funny, the way I felt about Shinjiro's death is pretty similar to my feelings on the cancelled Megaman Starforce 4. Something that I really didn't care for at first... That I had a massive change of opinions as time passed. I really think that killing off Shinjiro was not the right call, if it was an attempt to make Strega intimidating. It kinda falls flat later due to how anti-climactic their fights are (I mean, it kinda makes sense. They are basically "Defective" Persona users that have to call their Personas by force to use them. But still! On top of that whole thing with a killing website, that I am pretty sure only comes up once and never again.) And another thing that rubs me off the wrong way is something regarding Shinjiro in the Q duology, and that its that the Q devs. Rather than going the route of Mazinkaiser from Super Robot Wars. Of giving something an upgrade that did not have one in the source material, they took the lazy route and didn't even bother to make an Ultimate Persona upgrade for Castor. Another minor thing, and that its that while I accept the MC dying/becoming Nyx's seal, I really do NOT feel the same for the FeMC in Shinjiro's romance route. For crying out loud, Shinjiro doesn't want a romantic relationship since he knows his days are numbered, yet the girl that actually ends up breaking through his shell!? He ends up outliving HER! Bruh! What the fu**!?
Yeah Shinjiro x FeMC has that issue, and while disturbing for a lot of other reasons FeMC x Ken might be even worse as it's very possible he'd go back to being suicidal afterwards.
@@BigKlingy Considering that the FeMC route was kind of a one off thing that really didn't get any kind of follow up (Outside of Q2, where she comes from an alternate dimension/timeline) It really would have not hurt for the dev team to mess around more with the story, just so at least the FeMC actually had the chance of surviving.
see all of this was ruined in my first playthrough because someone (i forget who now) spoiled that Shinji would NOT be permanent in the party. I knew he was going to be gone so I knew something happened. So, I never got attached to Shinji. I didn't even USE him in my first run because of that (though now I am using him more). However, I don't hate Ken anyway. I dislike Ken. It is mostly because of the trope of "child in RPG game" or "child in anime". Usually they are either trying to be to hard to be adorable and are annoying or they try to be too serious. Sometimes it seems like Ken's falling in the "trying to hard to be serious when he's still a child". I didn't like that. First run I didn't use him much at all.
I see a lot of people have similar views to you, not liking child characters who try to be mature. I'm weird in that I actually like characters like that, but that might be due to me being like that when I was younger, and also from the fact that I'm TERRIBLE with kids in real life and children who act their age tend to drive me insane.
I mean that kind of character CAN be done right, but seeing it so many times and most of the time it ends up causing problems for the main group it's just...ugh i hate it. However, there are child characters in anime I do enjoy. I'm not sure if she counts as a child but Jean's sister in Trails of Cold Steel, I like her. Though I'm not done with the first game...still. May Chang from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. She was a good character though I still don't like when kids that young are forced to fight (Kana for example, I also don't like how young she is and expected to fight). I'm also NO good with children. though the older they are the better I can handle them. Unless they ask question after question...but then again I hate that no matter who does it
Yeah. Worse, the female protagonist has another link that's on an EVEN WORSE timer. For this other one, if you miss a single opportunity to hang out, the link is unmaxable.
lol I'm in the minority because I don't really like Shinjiro (I don't hate him either, he isn't a bad character but it's just something about him that I don't know why I don't like him) and I like Ken. Ken is actually in my Top 5 list of fav Persona 3 characters which is saying something, since all my other favorite characters are characters like Aigis, Mitsuru, Yukari and Koromaru, characters that are quite popular. I got the message that Atlus was giving out about this moment but when I introduce it to my friends, they say it's Ken's fault. I never really got it because he didn't pull the trigger, he didn't push Shinjiro into the bullet. He was willing to take the bullet since he was going to do the same after he got revenge for his mom. When Shinjiro died, he blames himself until he talks with Akihiko, who doesn't blame him for what happened. If Akihiko, Shinjiro's best friend, doesn't hate him, why should we hate Ken?
There's one situation where I hate how Shinjiros death is handled, this is in the female version of P3p as I find what you can do in that game bullshit (yeah it's not canon but seriously) not going in detail as I don't wanna spoil the female version
I directly talked about the female version in this video so I kinda spoiled it already. I do feel like it's kind of dumb that you save him, but he gets put into a coma for the rest of the game because PLOT CONVENIENCE!
It's... hard. Objectively speaking, Akechi killed the most people (although I think Strega's "assassination service" is implied to have succeeded a few times in the past, and you see at least one of them), but most of that was offscreen so Adachi's and Takaya's murders feel more personal. And despite Takaya only killing one party member and being pathetic in battle, he's the only one of the three who was WILLINGLY supporting a world-destroying Eldritch Abomination, as opposed to the other two unwittingly doing their work. So I'm tempted to say him.
If this was to establish Strega as a threat, they did a bad job. They're still a joke when you fight them. I'm not against Shinjiro dying and I don't hate Ken but I feel like Shinji never truly overcame his guilt of killing Ken's mom because he died. It could have been handled better.
Strega really should've been handled better as boss fights. If you keep watching this, you'll see that I had to intentionally hold back in the Strega fights just to show off what they could do.
So i might as talk about Ken adama aka the the most controversial character in persona 3 in this part -man it is interesting to look back how back this scence, some people blamed ken and wanted him dead. People didn't see the projection and really didn't like how he played. Guess it didn't help that Ken's original english voice actor wasn't the best. Now people have different complaints with Ken. Where after his awakening, he doesn't do that munch in the story and has this "hey I am still in this story". Also it feels more like shinjiro and Ahiniko's story then ken alot of the times, atleast with the original. There also ken's soical link with portable. Sure it gives Ken more screen time and development, but......he an romance link for the female protagonist despite at best he starting puberty.....yeah. In the movie, they did do a interesting twist with ken and shinjiro relationship, where ken idolize shijiro but figure he was the one that accidentally kill his mother. Have to said that actually a pretty good twist, even if their a bit of dark comedy vibe to it. It like "hey that guy look up and becoming big brother figure, yeah he a reason why your a orphan, life sucks kid! So far relaod not only help shinjiro more screen time, but also more screen and devoplement time for the game(without that elpehant in the room). Also ken in reload gameplay is alot better. I mean him having kogu skills along makes him better, but the karn skills are nice. Will said I lIke FeMc x shinjro, yeah it does have that the gloomy boy and manic pixie girl type, but i like to see FeMc showing her more true depressed side to shinjiro
15:46 unless its aerith. cause you are suppoed to hate sepharoth. I bet her and Birthright! eliese get along well... selling flowers and using magic...
Aerith was a decent death, but this one was ruined for a different reason: becoming such a meme that it's hard to take seriously anymore. (Like the Darth Vader father reveal scene)
Honestly I genuinely feel like a definitive release of Persona 3 could use doing away with some of the minor character Social Links in favor of giving us party member social links without a gender restriction to them. Like, I cannot be the only one who'd want to have Shinjiro as the male Social Link too over Nozomi Suemitsu. I have no disdain for any of the social links present on the male route, but I feel like a lot of the female Social Link options should be made available to the male protagonist.
What… the… actual… HELL!? Why would the people want Ken gone than Shinji!? I know Shinji is a great character, I like Shinji, but why do the want Ken dead for pathetic reasons!?
Off topic, I do remember way back during that Fire Emblem Fates character sorter, you said you were going to do one for Fire Emblem Awakening. I'm still waiting on that and still wondering what your choices are for your favorite characters. I mean, I know for a fact that Henry will be at the bottom for you, that much is obvious. I'm curious if this will still be a thing for you.
I might do that at some point. The main issue is I have very "meh" feelings on a lot of Awakening characters. There are quite a few I like, and quite a few I dislike (actually mostly just Henry), but most are in a bland "I'm neutral towards them" zone. Awakening's cast aren't really me favourites in the series.
@13:12; There is one major difference - Shinjiro killed Ken's mother by accident - Ken attempted to kill Shinjiro *with intent*. Those of us who hate Ken don't hate him because he killed a party member - as I mentioned on the previous video, this makes Shinjiro kind of a "And nothing of value was lost" character gameplay wise -, but that Ken intended to enact revenge. Involuntary manslaughter is an entirely different beast than pre-meditated, as far as sentencing goes - and attempting to be judge, jury, and executioner makes Ken an unlikable protagonist. ~~~ @13:33; As for that, well...remember that Ken was *going* to kill himself once he had gone through with the murder - and hypothetically, if Shinjiro hadn't tried to protect Ken on that second shot, he may have survived. @13:55; Shinjiro though, with his late-game use, essentially falls into this trap anyways. The game doesn't split his exp up among Ken and Akihiko, so anything put into him is wasted, minus his equipment. (Which, IIRC, you couldn't even use without him until FES. You can't use it in Portable, which makes it even more less useful.) ~~~ @14:33; Then perhaps if he wasn't on the team at all - Shinjiro actually has death flags on him without Ken being involved - since he was taking those pills that reduce life expectancy - they could've gone with "Character dies of Persona-Cancer." Or even take Shinjiro out of the game as well and have Junpei take the hit from Takaya - would've made the same effect, and would've been with a character we actually had a minimal, if at least significant, amount of investment in him - what actually happens with Junpei later is cool, but kind of fits this exact same arc, with about as much attachment to the characters involved. (Even moreso, given changes FES put in around what ends up happening.)
Ken gets over his revenge though. He realises thinking that was wrong and vows to be a better person from then on. Yes, it took a death to do it, but he DOES change. I still don't like how people ignore that, and still think of him as a remorseless killer. And later Persona games have given redemption arcs to characters who've... let's just say, gone a little further than the planning stages. (In those cases, I understand why there'd be conflicted fan opinions) 13:55 Yeah in a lot of ways Shinjiro is not a big loss as a party member, seeing as he's basically a clone of Junpei just with no weaknesses or resistances, and Power Charge but he's not going to get that without over-leveling. With both Junpei and Aigis, there's no reason to have another physical party member.
17:07 oh goddammit dude pq spoiler i haven't beat it yet (and if your asking why i haven't it beat yet my save died and i had to start agin so i got dishearten)
This may bit off topic but since we talk about death in fiction, I still think the worst defenders of death in fiction is superhero comics. They do both sides of the extreme. The worst part of this that almost all the time, the characther that died will come back eventually( it just that when they would). It nearly almost happens every time in big time event comics. With D.C. Comics case it go so bad they made a frigging event comic about it and explain about why it happening so munch(blackest night which is green lantern) and with marvel they kinda make fun of it with stuff like marvel zombies. everytime a superhero dies in comics I just remind a robot chicken skit about batman getting tired of this death stuff. Say something that no major characthers is death in event comics is seen as a miracle. Sorry for that rant but if your a comic reader, you get really annoyed about this death stuff.
The problem with comic books is that most of the characters readers actually care about are extremely iconic and there's no way the publisher would give them up. Like really, would they REALLY kill Superman or Batman? That's like Nintendo killing Mario and never having another Mario game. It's just not going to happen, the character is too iconic and marketable. It is silly just how many ways they can bring people back though. I haven't read the actual comics, but I've read summaries of some of the big crossover events they do to "fix" their continuity messes, and they sound hilarious. "We killed a bunch of characters but want them back. How do we do that?" "I know! We'll have Superboy Prime literally punch the walls of reality repeatedly until all those deaths never happened. That makes total sense, right??"
Yeah I agree. This crap start from crisis on infinite earth (1980s) where a lot of sliver and gold age characthers( like the sliver age flash and original super girl, there like 2-4 super girl depended on who you ask) sarfiace themselves to save the mult universes,which became one hold universe......long story. By the way crisis on infinite is actually really good, but it started some stupid trend in comics.
Yeah superhero comics can get werid(escpically the sliver age, seriously look it up). Come to think about superheroes comics are way more werid then most manga and anime come to think about.
@@BigKlingy Yup. It like the Fates videos where I commented once and after that, I got Reddit TTS videos afterward. RUclips is literally recommending you every three years to me and every time I have a different username.
off topic, but the new FE heroes trailer... LOL. suckbaki is the only one taking damage while the others are mostly critting lol. seems even the devs know how much he sucks.
Xander got hit too. (Also, did Hinoka's voice change? I'm sure she wasn't originally Cindy Robinson. This also means Hinoka is now Persona Q Ken) I like Ursula's call-back to her original boss quote. "Tell me... are you afraid to die?" Really terrifying since she's got a long-range tome in a FoW map, so this line tends to come out of nowhere.
Okay. Spoilers, first of all. What's your opinion on the Persona 3 portable ending? You know where he lives?9 I find it completely shoe horned in. I like the fact Shinjiro got more development in the form of a social link. But I felt it was unnecessary, it took a lot of meaning out of his death.
The Social Link was good (heck, Shinjiro even has a portrait that you only see in Portable, so you're literally seeing a different side of him), but yeah I do feel like his survival was just fanservice. Especially since you don't even get to keep him as a party member. Granted there's a romance option in Portable that I find even weirder, it doesn't make a lot of sense and it's kind of creepy if you think about it. But that's spoilers.
If they redo persona 3 as a definitive version I feel like they are going to replace the game ken with the movie ken, I still dont like him as I actually simply found him annoying and find the idea of femc being able to romance him and that if they keep her she will still be able to romance him cause atlus. I just find him annoying but hope that they improve him if they ever revisit p3 cause I dont feel like p4 or p5 were able to re doit, well p4 did have sertain aspects but I dont recall any on p5 or its expantion
One thing I never understood with the hatred Ken gets is the idea that no one brings up that Ken is just a kid. A kid who lost his mother at a young age who saw it happen right before his very eyes. His seething hatred for Shinjiro is more than likely an amalgamation of PTSD and his immaturity which is to be expected as Ken again IS. A. CHILD. Who wouldn't hate their mother's killer at an age of like what 11? Another thing about this is that Shinjiro died for Ken in a sense of atonement and I truly believe that Ken gets this. The idea that Ken should be blamed for Shinjiro's death becomes moot when Takaya enters the picture. Lastly no one seems to talk about the idea that Ken was going to kill himself after his revenge. Ken again because of immaturity, PTSD whatever you want to call it finds himself at a loss of purpose without someone to avenge. So what does Shinjiro do? He dies... the same way Ken's mother did... protecting Ken. This channels Ken's passion towards moving forward, letting go of his hatred and realizing that he needs to live out of respect that his mother and Shinjiro's sacrifice. Did Ken want Shinjiro to die? Absolutely. Did Ken, by bringing Shinjiro out and away from SEES bring about Shinjiro's death? You could make an argument for that. However, did Ken wanting to receive some form of atonement from Shinjiro expect him to die the same way his mother did? I don't think so. That is what makes Shinjiro's death so beautiful and so tragic.
You pretty much sum it up. Part of what disturbs me about some of the fandom's attitude is they're wishing death on a PTSD-suffering 11 year old who's pretty much stated to have been suicidal. Someone Ken's age should NOT have to go through all that, and on top of that people feel he's not deserving of life just for how he acted at one point.
I find that a lot of child characters tend to get hated in a lot of media. A lot of people don't realise that an 11 year old is obviously not going to have the wisdom and maturity of an adult, so them being immature doesn't make them a badly-written character. (Granted, there ARE badly-written child characters, but the point still stands)
One thing I like about Ken's P4 Ultimax arc is it explores how Ken really WANTS to go back to being a normal kid, but can't after everything he's experienced. It's a sad, but accurate, look at the downside of being a "kid hero".
BigKlingy well, i haven't played p3, but i know a bit of the story, i kinda hate Ken now, But i'll look in his p4a Ultimax story, and i can kinda understand the unfair hate he can get because he's still a child who has has experienced soo much. And think Shinji qould have wanted Ken to blossom like he did, and i am sure he's happy because of that, and he maybe would condemn our hatred. I'll try to battle with him if i ever play p3p, and maybe romance him cz his SL seems interesting! Great vid!!!! 😍😍😍😍😉
Raphaël Khoury *the FBI is at your door,you should probably run*
Ken is actually one of my favorite characters in this game due to his character arc but I don't speak of it. Ken is not a 16 year old who's mind is much more developed than an elementary schooler. He's not mature enough.
Honestly, I've noticed this kind of thing a lot with child characters - people almost seem to be HARDER on them than grown adults. I kind of get the impression people wouldn't be nearly as hard on someone older doing what Ken does.
Anyone else angry that the only adult in the group, the Chairman, who knew that Shinjiro killed Ken’s mother didn’t do anything about the situation between Shinjiro and Ken?
Rashid Al-Suwaidi me
Ikutsuki probably wanted less interference in his final plan, so decided not to step in on it.
Tippacanoe, plus it probably would’ve started more drama I guess you can say between the group so it would’ve delayed this whole ending the world thing
If we should hate any one for this game
Is SEES chairman Ikutsuki
I suggest not worrying about that because of one plot twist that happens. Trust me, it makes sense once that's revealed.
I think people also often forget that it was very plainly implied that Shinjiro knew Ken was the child of the woman his Persona killed. When Akihiko went to talk to Shinji in front of Iwatodai, that when Shinji realized who this "Amada" person Aki mentioned. I also think this was around the time Shinji made up his mind and decided to come back to SEES. Hell, even when Ken "lured" Shinjiro to the back alley, I'm pretty sure Shinji mentioned how he knew this was coming. If Shinji knew it was Ken that was the new Persona user, if he understood that Ken would be, understandably, enraged by what Shinjiro did, and most all WILLING JOINED BACK TO S.E.E.S AFTER EXPLICITLY NOT WANTING TO AFTER FINDING OUT KEN WAS APART OF IT, Shinji could have easily avoided the situation if he wanted. But that's what people don't realize, he didn't want to avoid the situation. Shinji quit S.E.E.S because of what he did to Ken's mom. He felt like he deserved to die-- which he was slowly dying regardless. He wanted this for Ken's peace of mind and for his own vindication to absolve his sins. So blaming Ken for everything is just a blatant oversight of Shinji's wishes. His mind was made up way before that encounter.
I'm an Asian who can read Japanese, Chinese, and English. I think Ken is one of the most complex and interesting characters in my Otaku life. Unfortunately from my experience, in those fanbases, only western fanbase incredibly rude to Ken with ridiculous reasons just makes me disappointed, disgust and no tolerance. But I also know not all the western fans like that of course and you did an excellent argument for him, thank you very much.
I just wish developers wouldn't disregard their character again as they did for Ken before those redemptions (PQ P3M P4AU P3WM P3D).
I do really like Shinji and his death was sad. Although I do not blame Ken at all for Shinjiro's death. He is a kid, and in the end, Takaya was the one fully responsible for his death. The other SEES members could have probably stopped Ken, but with Takaya, there was no discussion. Ken grew up from this and became a better person.
Dang I just found this video and you did a really great job defending Ken! He's actually my favorite character in the series due to the fact that I find him relatable in some aspects. Another thing to point out on whose to "blame" for the incident is the Kirijo group. They covered Ken's mothers death as an accident and that made Ken really angry. In his door to the past it shows him being pretty much laughed at by the police when he tried to explain what happened to his mother and that made Ken believe that he couldn't rely on adults. Another thing that ticks me off about the fandom is of how they disregard how the characters in game would have felt if Ken died instead of Shinjiro. Shinjiro would have probably have felt even worse than before that the child he was trying to protect from such a fate died. I mean, Ken WAS A CHILD who still had his whole future ahead of him. The reason why the party members wouldn't feel as awful as Ken dying than Shinjiro is because of Shinjiro's last words "this is how it should be". His death was a way of redemption and even so he didn't have to go meet up Ken, he could have let Ken take the bullet, even worse Takaya could have probably fucked up Ken's mind even more with his words and pontentinally killing him right then and there. (Maybe Ken could have joined strega?? tbh if that did happen it would have made strega a lot more interesting and a threat) So really killing off Ken would have lead their oh-so-precious Shinji to a fate worse than death. Since by the end of the game he still would have died because of Persona cancer and he would have died full of regrets and self hatred. The way he died was the best he could have, it lead to Ken becoming a better person and someone who is excited to grow up and live on.
That's a good point: Ken dying here would leave Shinjiro even more devastated than he currently is, and would NOT be a good fate for his character.
Also, is it bad that the term "Persona cancer" kind of made me laugh? I've never seen that plot point described in that way before.
the fandom should chill. OUT. he's a KID, a PTSD'd kid at that who lost his mother. we can't really blame him. he probably would have not killed him, and both shinji and ken would have come out of this with a huge load off thier hearts. but NOOO, hippie jesus wanabe reverse fortune demon just HAD to kill shinji.
If you hate ken because of this, you are just letting the revolver toting devil hippie win.
TheBraveGallade yea if I was in that situation I might have reacted similarly that’s a question you should ask yourself before you start hating here everyone
Ooh boy i can't wait to see how Reloaded handles this. Hopefully Ken doesn't get hate bombed somehow
Okay, good thing you actually talked about all of this. I personally really like Shinjiro; I actually liked him more once I went the Female Protagonist route in P3P. When he died, I felt sad and all because of that fact, but I never hated Ken. I knew that, while Ken wanted Shinjiro dead, he didn't know how to really handle this situation, and besides, Takaya was the killer; not Ken. He wasn't to blame. While he indirectly caused this to happen due to him calling Shinjiro there, he couldn't have possibly predicted that Takaya would show up and try to kill them both. I'll admit; initially I didn't like Ken all that much, but as you said, that was intentional. When I realized that, and when I saw him move on after that fact, I actually liked him a bit better. He was useful in battle, sure, but before then, my opinion of him wasn't a good one. Persona Q only accentuated my liking of Shinjiro and Ken, so yeah. I don't approve of the way some of the fandom blame Ken over all this, but I guess everyone has their own way of interpreting a scene, as warped as it may seem. Can't really change that if they think that's the way to see it, I guess.
I fully agree with you on this one. This is exactly my view.
Actually, I was trying to think of a "What if Shinjiro survived", and the only believable way he could survive is only if Ken was shot by Takaya (which would kill him), and every possible aftermath that I can think about leads to very dark outcomes. Either Shinjiro goes into a rampage that would end with either him or Takaya (or even both) getting killed, or Takaya escapes, and Shinjiro leaves SEES to hunt him down, which would lead to him fighting both Takaya and Jin. And in case he won, he would either move on from his failures and rejoin SEES with a new Persona until he dies, keeps waiting for his death to come, or he commits suicide as he had nothing else left to do.
Jesus Christ, this is dark yet interesting
Line 11 from "he would either..." to "...until he dies"
I don't see it that dark, since he got a new persona and keeps fighting with them. Until he dies? Yeah sure the meds that he used to take is the reason that will kill him but until then no one knows when he would have died.
Wouldn't shinjiro surviving affect the story? At least the new personas of the group, as in they won't aweken to them (except mitsuru, diffrent reason)
Well, the female route in Persona 3 Portable answered that question, but not exactly what you've imagined.
@@spydersoup8447 I was talking about the Male Route, without the pocket watch saving his butt.
@@GaeaRage0798 I see.
Ken must be protected from the moronic behavior of fans who accuse him for Shinjiro's death
Ken was my favorite character, idk why. He was always in my party when possible too.
Same, mostly because his name almost sounds like mine
He's an amazing healer
8:47 Shinjiro is a great character, but Ken is a little kid who lost his mother and had no one else until he joined the group.
Takaya, that JERK! We need to get him.
12:10 Isn't reacting by withing death on the one you see as guilty what Ken did and tried to execute? If that is how they actually feel, then they are ironically act like Ken did before and during that scene. Unlike Ken, they aren't grow up as a result. That's pretty sad if I'm actually understanding things correctly.
And it sounds you said the exact same thing I was think at 12:50.
A good video and thanks for explaining the developer's intentions. that made the scene much more understandable.
It’s a few months late but I just recently found this and watched your videos. I’m glad you actually took the time to talk about this event, considering, in my opinion, it’s the turning point where the story gets ready to enter it’s second and final stage.
The moment entirely is emotional and was painful to watch, but seeing you break it down shows how important this scene is to what’s coming up.
I admit I mostly did the video because the fandom used to take this scene entirely the wrong way, and that really angered me. For a while, people were acting as if Ken literally murdered Shinjiro, which defeats the whole point of this scene. Shinjiro sacrificed his life to save someone he knew hated him. That's one of the noblest things anyone can do, and it's what really opens Ken's eyes and lets him develop. There were also a ton of people who wished Ken died here, which is also missing the point.
Thankfully things have got a lot better now, especially due to Ultimax and Q developing Ken a lot more.
BigKlingy I can understand people’s frustration towards Ken, but I agree, it’s definitely not the point. I think what Shinjiro did was fantastic and lead to the perfect death scene, and it helped Ken grow and I started liking Ken more when it happened.
I’m also glad Arena Ultimax and Q developed Ken more because fans are definitely nicer about it than they were before.
Your video is a good service to the fandom to let people know what the truth really is in such a dramatic and heart breaking scene.
happy lunar new year...
and rest in peace, aragaki.
i find myself repeatedly going back to this vid... you should really make more stuff like this
To be honest, I disliked Ken from the start. The reason: he was like me. This scene got me to think hard about my life, and how I am always stuck in the past. But seeing him move on brings hope that people can change and become better.
That's the Persona 3 experience :)
12:58
TAKE THAT, HYPOCRITICAL JERKS!
on the subject of the whole mess with Ken, there is a word for those who do what you described: Hypocrite.
i remember the first time i played P3:FES. I will never forget how sad i was not only for shinji, but also for ken. As shinji well said while he was dying: "kid, you are just a kid". Ken was forced to mature with the contradiction of being grateful towards his mother killer. And that shit is not easy at all. And you could tell how shinji was tortured by the idea of hurting ken because of what happened. It is a tragic scene, but it is a well scripted scene also.
I relay like video's like this one where people just talk about their thoughts on certain topics. I agree 100% on everything you said. Ken absolutely does not deserve all the raw hatred he gets. And while he isn't my favorite Persona, he's grown on me over the years. October 4th is one of the most impactful moments in any game I've ever seen, and is one of the moments that made me fall in love with the Persona series in general. Though just in genera,l November 22 is strait up one of my favorite moments in gaming period. xD
Your commentary is great. I’ve never heard analysis of the game with this depth before. Great video
Ken is a prime example that no matter how well written a character is, people will still bitch about him being a "badly written character" just because they can't directly relate to him.
If Ken was more badass looking or we had a transition to an adult Ken who is muscular and scary looking, you wouldn't see anyone bitching about him.
Yeah. Which really, really sucks.
Persona fans are stupid like that. Ken, Yukari, Teddie, Morgana (and probably more I'm forgetting) all get so much hate for no reason just because fans miss the point of their entire character. It's honestly ironic how the Persona series is all about the well written characters, but most Persona fans don't bother with looking any deeper than the surface level.
it's just because he's the "cringey annoying little boy" and not the "mature cool teenagers"
I wouldn't consider Shinjiro's kanji being "Life" a sick twisted joke; rather, I would just call it accurate. From what we can see from Shinjiro's time in the game, we can see that he values life. Sure, he was willing to give it up to Ken, but he did this not put of fear or dread. But because he thought if he could confront Ken he was accepting of that life which he lived. When he learns of Ken's other motive, his reactions change, but his motivation stays the same, trying to help Ken.
This isn't only in this demonstration of this; you can see it from the creative activities: cooking. Much time has been spent asking "what is the meaning of life." However, as a philosopher, we can say that, formulated in this way, it is a bad question. What does life mean? No. What does life do? What can life do? Life can create. What is cooking? An act of creation. It is also a special act of creation. Why? Because it is an act which can help others. I may not be up on Greek mythology; however, before modern medicine we had what was called Dietetics, literally dieting (super diet food!). When someone wasn't feeling well, was sick, was off balance, then they would change their diet to heal themselves. Ancient medicine, in the west at least, was changing ones diet. We can see this today in places like soup kitchens. This is to say that diet is still important, and by cooking we can help other by giving them food. Without food they'd die.
So. I think we can find a more subtle interpretation of Shinjiro that isn't just a sick joke. That Shinjiro saved Ken by making him hunger for life.
This is great that you stated your opinion and i totally agree great job
I feel it is a beautiful irony that those who hate Ken after Shinjiro's death failed to process their grief in exactly the same way Ken did. They became the very thing they want to kill.
The fandom: ken should have died because he is useless in battle
Me, who used Ken in battle until the end of the game: uhhhhhhh
Shenpai: *yes’nt*
Fear Ken, for he is the destroyer of all worlds!
Pretty sure Ken learns Mediarahan relatively early, I kinda relied on him for a lot of the endgame
9:12
to be fair though, I can understand the people who don't LIKE ken, but some people just go way too far.
That's pretty much my point.
As far as Ken goes, up until he got Kala-Nemi, I thought of him to be basically a worse Akihiko in terms of gameplay(I did use him just to give him a fair chance) and in terms of personality, he didn't impress me. However, once Ken got Kala-Nemi, he became my main healer (yes, I prefer him over Yukari) and that's also when his social link (I played on the female route) started to impress me.
I often see him as a malleable member(or he woulda been if in p3 era light attacks had more variety and he does NOW with p3re) he could be a damage dealer, all rounder, healer. it mimics how at his age, he could end up doing a lot with his life
Isint 10/4 also Nanako's birthday?
Yes, but that's not exactly relevant to this game.
@@BigKlingy Kind Of A GOOD Thing, Cause The Game's Dark Enough Already
Hold up
@@its_heeho dont you mean hee hold up
@@B_A-tr Perhaps hee ho
"Alright let's do this"
I remember the first time playing P3P (as that one was available to me) and how much of an impact it had (and still has) on me. Shinjiro reminded me of a boy I was dating at the same time as I was playing P3P. This boy had shaggy brown hair, wore a knitted beanie, and came off as intimidating at first but was very sweet. He told me to make sure to spend time with Shinjiro, as he already played Persona 3 before we met. When October 4th happened, I put down my PSP and bawled like a baby. Even though I followed through the steps to save Shinjiro, I still cried. As for Ken, I saw him more as a son. Not somebody who needed protection and to be babied, but someone who needed compassion, guidance and love. It tore my heart to pieces to hear Ken’s shrill scream. Hell, I’m tearing up just typing this. I know this sounds kind of childish for a 27 year old woman, but I can’t bring myself to play the Male Protagonist’s route. Watching the cutscene on RUclips, and seeing the funeral scene in the Midsummer Knight’s Dream hurt more. I also like the comparison between Shinjiro’s moon social link and Akinari’s sun social link. Two sides of the same coin. It is genuinely tragic what happened to both Shinjiro and Ken, as Ken will never have a normal life after that.
Also as an added not because I forgot about this, but Ken also learns Hama skills naturally through level ups. He does Akihiko’s job in a different way, but is still very valuable because of those Hama skills. It has saved me many times to have Ken casting a Hamaon at the right time. I genuinely can’t see why people hate him so much. In this dorm we respect Ken and the variety he brings to the team. 🫡
Cmon it's Takaya fault an he should for it pay! I can't wait to serve him the most! Atleast this makes it a redemption for another character to get better not become Ken was never a bad kid nor was he irritating he was alright. I never hated him and I definitely find him useful in the party just another human! Fans need to chill out by the way and think logically an objectively.
Hell, even Aki found out that Shinji took those pills that Strega gave him (which are supposed to keep his Persona from going out of control) and told him about the side effects, and it was before the 6th Full Moon mission!
I just wish that we had more scenes with Shinjiro. Not necessarily with the entire party or with the main character, but with his old friends Mitsuru and Akihiko. It would've made their pain from the loss a lot more powerful. With that said, this is still in a sick way a highlight of the game.
From what I've heard, he gets a bit more scenes with him in the P3 movies.
@@BigKlingy Guess I just have to watch those then.... My P3 journey will never end.
@@Laurmachi Not as long as Atlus continues making spin-offs and adaptations :)
I never really liked how Shinjiro can survive in the PSP version. It doesn't ruin the event for me, but it jut lessens the impact it originally had. I understand the want to keep Shinjiro alive, hell I was very tempted myself, but it just didn't feel right for the development of characters like Ken and Akihiko. That's just my opinion though, and I understand anyone who chose to save Shinjiro.
Yeah in some ways it does feel a bit weird. While Akihiko's development I can see still happening, Ken's I feel really only makes sense if Shinjiro actually dies.
There's also the fact that him surviving doesn't impact the plot at all since he goes into a coma for the rest of the game anyway. The only change it makes it a possible choice during the ending, and even then that requires you to romance him AND be on a New Game Plus.
I wish the requirement to save him was romancing him instead of Maxing out his SL.
@@GaeaRage0798 To be fair I think the game implies hes going to die anyway regardless of whether or not you save him as Takaya says "He doesn't have much longer" which kind of makes him showing up at the end of the game pointless
I saw it more as a bonus treat for playing the new route TWICE. not 100% cannon but it's a sweet gesture
Poor Ken
in FES Metis almost killed him
and in Portable... ummm..
Funnily enough, October the 4th is also my mother's birthday.
Its also the birthday pf my best friend
Honestly the fact that Ken after Takaya asked about the support person, he knew that shinjiro would likely not tell getting himself killed and ken said it was him so he’d die instead, that shows character that he would die in place or at least before the one he hated
as someone who has just seen these events for the first time a few hours ago i guess here are some thoughts i dont blame ken i even think him wanting revenge makes sense he is just a kid and shinjiro death helps both ken and akihiko develop as characters overall i see the events that transpired as a good thing for developing the characters mainly ken and akihiko
This is a thought that's not really specific to this game, just something I think in general, but I guess I can mention it here. I don't really like the notion that writers have to pull off a "balancing act" regarding character deaths, making you attached but not TOO attached before they die. In real life, death just happens. It doesn't conveniently happen only to people whom you have exactly a moderate amount of attachment to. It could happen to someone you don't care for, and it could happen to someone you love completely. Don't get me wrong; of course it's still possible to write a death badly. But I don't agree with the idea that a fictional death requires so much foreshadowing and balancing of attachment, when real-life death simply happens without regard for your feelings in the matter.
Anyway, thank you for another good discussion. I always enjoy your commentary on video games and stories.
I get that, but I've just seen way too many deaths in fiction that are sudden in a way that doesn't feel realistic, it just feels like bad writing. FF7's major death is an example of how you do sudden deaths right. One early in FE Path of Radiance as well.
I still feel that fiction is different from reality. With fiction, you're aware there are writers behind everything, and that there can be no freak accidents: everything happens because it was specifically written that way. If the death fails to get the intended emotional response out of the audience, then, from a writing standpoint, there may as well have not been a death at all. What you described can be done well, but you have to be careful or genre-savvy audiences won't see it as "true to life", they'll see it as "what a cheap way to add drama".
This is probably just the literary critic in me talking though. I can be pretty harsh on writing sometimes. But it is also really annoying when a potentially really interesting character gets killed off after minimal screentime.
"Sudden death that doesn't feel realistic, it just feels like bad writing" - that's a really good way to describe it. Thanks; I feel that I understand your point better now. Death is really hard to write well, and I try not to be too tough in judging it because I know death happens suddenly in real life, but you're right that there's a difference between writing a sudden death realistically and writing one that's just a cheap grab for drama.
Actually one thing about what you mentioned about Akihiko's Social Link in the female route is I've seen that some people ended up starting the Social Link a bit later in the game than intended due to one specific requirement you need to start the Social Link, being that you need to be a Queen Bee, AKA, have level 4 Charm, and everyone knows how tedious trying to rank up your Social Stats is just to do/start a Social Link/Confidant, especarlly new players.
FeMC's social links are pretty crazy in general, you've got several on short timers and others with either really high stat requirements or convoluted flags.
@@BigKlingy Well, most of these are Social Links you never had in the male route and they're specifically made for the female route as well. So, what else can you expect?
3:00 me too and the only othermoment that made my tear up a bit as the main story ending of GTI (gates to infinity)
I've actually noticed a LOT of similarities between this game's story and GTI, which is interesting. Though I won't say anymore for now.
BigKlingy dont worry u finished te game
Wait Ken knew it was Shinji the entire time? I thought he connected the dots a month before when Aki and Shinji are talking about it. Also a theory I heard is that even though they lose their memories it kind of stays with them, and that's why Ken couldn't kill Shinji
You are correct. Ken just said he wanted to find the killer, but apparently he didn't see who it was, but knew it was teenager using a "magical horse" (look his answer cutscene). Also, in portable, he sees Aki and Shinji talking and instantly recognizes the former, but not the latter, which implies that he didn't know it since the beginning. Here is the transcript:
> At that moment...
> Ken came out from a nearby store...
Ken: Huh? Oh, it's Sanada-san. .....? Who's he talking to? I guess it'd be rude to butt in...
Akihiko: We saw someone die right before our eyes, too... But, it's been two years since then...
Shinjiro: .....
Akihiko: How long do you plan to beat yourself up over it? You're always at that spot behind the station, even though you don't hang out with the crowd there.
Shinjiro: It doesn't matter. It was my fault and it can't be erased. What difference does it make if I come to terms with it? It won't change anything. This isn't the same as what happened to Miki.
Akihiko: Shinji...
Shinjiro: That's enough already. I just want to forget it ever happened. [They walk off]
Ken: Two years ago... ..... It can't be... ..... So his name is Shinji, huh...?
Most people assume he knew it since the beginning since this cutscene happens quite before October and is quite forgettable, which is why I think they changed Ken's discovery that Shinji was the killer in the manga (Shinji summons his persona and Ken recognizes it and connects the dots) and in the movies (same thing as the manga(
Ken and Shinji are 2 of my favourite characters in the persona series. and I was really sad when Shinji died, but i didn't blame Ken. It just made me want to take Strega, mainly Takaya, even more. And also I find it pretty unacceptable for people to want Ken to die since HE IS A CHILD!!!! That's just not ok for anyone to want a kid to die because they blame him for the death of one of their favourite characters
I agree with this SO DAMN MUCH. Ken and Shinji are definitely my favorites from p3.
True i nearly cried playing through this game... Funny story, i picked persona 3 knowing nothing about the game nor series... I just happened to pick a game that some guy is buying at that moment.. And voila i am happy i did that when i'm a junior high schooler lol
I didn’t really like Ken much and honestly I still don’t, but I respect his character arc. I think it’s mainly because there’s other characters that he reminds me of that I don’t like. I also don’t think I was super attached to Shinjiro until after his death. I like his “Aidos, asshole” after battle, but I knew he was the most likely to die if anyone at all. Towards the very end of the game, I found the recordings of each character and for some reason got pretty emotional while watching Shinji’s where he watches the cooking show, and Akihiko saying “you see that Shinji?” After battles made me like him more and more. That idea of sacrifice and just the fact that I kinda missed him made him become probably my favorite male character in the game.
9:12 whatever they may do, ill defend Ken since hes my 2nd favorite charather in this game! (Only outdone by Koromaru)
come at me Ken haters!
Lucas Vita, D O G
Ken is my least favorite character in this game but I still really like him actually the answer Yukari is my least favorite character in this game
*Takes a deep breath in*
Ken is a character I liked at first out of concept, having a kid fight alongside these teens to near-adults was super cool. (A similar feeling to having Koromaru as a party member) As I went through most of the game, I was thinking a little less of him. I still used him since I already swore that I would use this character mainly because of all the hate surrounding him, but I was still growing slightly less attached. Then these events happened, and I started warming up to him. He is probably at the bottom 3 for me, but I still really like his character arc and growth.
Uh youre like chuggaaconroy with an acccent! I think i might sub!
So, i knew about the penultimate ending of FES Journey. As such how it ends was not what I expected that death to be. It felt... anticlimactic because I didn’t really understand what thematically was going on.
In contrast, because of seeing Shinjiro in the opening scene for The Answer scenes in FES as well as hearing critical and victory voice clips for The Answer in other videos, I was NOT expecting Shinjiro’s death. And since I was doing Persona 3 Portable FeMC as the first time I was able to actually beat the game and get that far, I wasn’t prioritizing Shinjiro’s Social Link since I didn’t know what was going to happen to him and it hurt s o badly since I loved his personality in the Social Link...
Also I’ve liked Ken for a while I’m not sure why people don’t like him
Shinjiro is the best yes but ken is still an interesting person to be with
It's quite a shame that I always knew Shinjiro died. I mean.... the P3 vanilla opening says it all, and it adds up whenever other fans said "Oh, by the way, don't bother with Shinji. Don't ask why, just *don't* do it, okay?" The death just didn't have that punch.
Ken is genuinely one of my favourite characters from the game, and the fact that I'm alone in this pains me. The argument still stands: Ken was just a kid.
Yeah, man... When I play a Persona Game for the 1st. Time (Persona Q Hehe) I didn't know the "truth" behind Ken... The truth that he is SO hated. But a hatred of the most insignificant and lack of logic. Man... This just a Game. Obviously a Game with a True and Deep Message for every one of us, but been anger with a KID?!
At least for me, I felt bad for Ken. He's just a poor kid who needed to deal with life by his own and with the lack of a parent to cuide him for the good. And these last days I found him VERY useful in Combat. I was speechless of how versatile he is. So... I don't know why I "need" to hate Ken. Takaya was the guilty here and, sadly... We lost a Wonderful Character like Shinji is. I honestly feel even way more Happy that I can play more with him in PQ, but yeah... The reality is there. I'm glad to hear your Opinion, bro. By people like you is what sharing my Japanese Games and Anime Tastes with another people un the Fandom stills worth it. You did it very well...
I'm still sad for the sect that still DON'T Understand the things how it really is, but well... Just we only need to avoid them. There are people who really take this seriously.
P. D: Ironicly, this happened to me twice. When I watched Toradora for the 1st. Time. I never knew how hatred that Anime was. But Meh! I LOVE that Show no matter what
Fortunately, it feels opinions have changed now. People coming to Persona 3 these days have greater awareness of trauma and mental issues and realize that Ken is a pretty well-written portrayal. Same with Yukari.
I personally hate Ken, but I didn't want him dead.
Gonna skip to this video bc I remember LOVING it when I was younger and played persona 3 for the first time. I just did October 4th a few hours ago and…shinji is one of the best persona characters for me hell best rpg characters I will always love this part of persona 3 and I’ll always love this video.
Now my negative opinion of ken isn’t because of October 4th hell I feel like shit when I think about poor ken on the 4th..I hate him because his disgusting social link.
Great video, I wonder how Reload will change this scene. I would love to hear an updated video after Reload comes out since it could change a bit and it has been some time. I didn't care too much about the Shinji/Ken story line in the game. The movies made this scene so much more powerful for me and your analysis explains the scene and the buildup very well. I feel like the Persona 3 cast is the most polarizing persona cast which in my opinion makes SEES an especially intriguing group. To me I find Junpei to be annoying in the beginning and loved Yukari calling him out! Junpei said that hanging out with me would be a sausage fest and I never mentally recovered from that to this day. I liked his arc with Chidori and I was glad his persona changed when Chidori puts her life force in him. I may not like him but I appreciate that he had some redeeming parts to his character and although I may not like him I think he is a decent character in general. I wish people could see Ken in a similar way where death can't be taken back but going forward Ken understands what Shinji meant by shouldering the burden and has Shinji's kind dying words to keep himself moving forward. This game does a good job of creating characters that can evict strong negative emotions but still be respectable in the end. In my opinion the game fails most with Strega considering they are not only pushovers in battle but also don't really have much to like about them except Chidori. I think the characters could be improved with some more focus on the atrocities that they went through before Mitsuru was a part of SEES. Seeing how these three went through an extreme change when they were used in experiments with artificial personas it would be cool to be able to see part of what they went through and the repercussions of it. They aren't a threat in the game but they aren't too interesting either so they need some more added to them and I think showing how they came to be would be a great way to improve the experience of the game and have more details about them both individually and as a group.
I hope they keep that same completely dead inside but simultaneously horrified look with ken. really captures the feeling he'd feel
I think the remake did it justice but I do kinda wanna hear your opinion
Funny, the way I felt about Shinjiro's death is pretty similar to my feelings on the cancelled Megaman Starforce 4. Something that I really didn't care for at first... That I had a massive change of opinions as time passed.
I really think that killing off Shinjiro was not the right call, if it was an attempt to make Strega intimidating. It kinda falls flat later due to how anti-climactic their fights are (I mean, it kinda makes sense. They are basically "Defective" Persona users that have to call their Personas by force to use them. But still! On top of that whole thing with a killing website, that I am pretty sure only comes up once and never again.)
And another thing that rubs me off the wrong way is something regarding Shinjiro in the Q duology, and that its that the Q devs. Rather than going the route of Mazinkaiser from Super Robot Wars. Of giving something an upgrade that did not have one in the source material, they took the lazy route and didn't even bother to make an Ultimate Persona upgrade for Castor.
Another minor thing, and that its that while I accept the MC dying/becoming Nyx's seal, I really do NOT feel the same for the FeMC in Shinjiro's romance route. For crying out loud, Shinjiro doesn't want a romantic relationship since he knows his days are numbered, yet the girl that actually ends up breaking through his shell!? He ends up outliving HER! Bruh! What the fu**!?
Yeah Shinjiro x FeMC has that issue, and while disturbing for a lot of other reasons FeMC x Ken might be even worse as it's very possible he'd go back to being suicidal afterwards.
@@BigKlingy Considering that the FeMC route was kind of a one off thing that really didn't get any kind of follow up (Outside of Q2, where she comes from an alternate dimension/timeline)
It really would have not hurt for the dev team to mess around more with the story, just so at least the FeMC actually had the chance of surviving.
i remembered while watching this video that when i was watching the persona 3 movies i knew that he would die and yet i still cried
see all of this was ruined in my first playthrough because someone (i forget who now) spoiled that Shinji would NOT be permanent in the party. I knew he was going to be gone so I knew something happened. So, I never got attached to Shinji. I didn't even USE him in my first run because of that (though now I am using him more). However, I don't hate Ken anyway. I dislike Ken. It is mostly because of the trope of "child in RPG game" or "child in anime". Usually they are either trying to be to hard to be adorable and are annoying or they try to be too serious. Sometimes it seems like Ken's falling in the "trying to hard to be serious when he's still a child". I didn't like that. First run I didn't use him much at all.
I see a lot of people have similar views to you, not liking child characters who try to be mature. I'm weird in that I actually like characters like that, but that might be due to me being like that when I was younger, and also from the fact that I'm TERRIBLE with kids in real life and children who act their age tend to drive me insane.
I mean that kind of character CAN be done right, but seeing it so many times and most of the time it ends up causing problems for the main group it's just...ugh i hate it. However, there are child characters in anime I do enjoy. I'm not sure if she counts as a child but Jean's sister in Trails of Cold Steel, I like her. Though I'm not done with the first game...still. May Chang from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. She was a good character though I still don't like when kids that young are forced to fight (Kana for example, I also don't like how young she is and expected to fight). I'm also NO good with children. though the older they are the better I can handle them. Unless they ask question after question...but then again I hate that no matter who does it
2:50
goddamit I only have a month to max shinji's link as FeMC, right? thats going to suck.
Yeah. Worse, the female protagonist has another link that's on an EVEN WORSE timer. For this other one, if you miss a single opportunity to hang out, the link is unmaxable.
I think people just arn't used to complex charectet development. because a big chunk of gamers don't read a lot of really good books.
21:45 So you're going to romance Shinjiro if you ever do a P3P FEMC run?
I doubt I'll play P3P, since it's mostly the exact same as P3 in terms of main story and Tartarus.
lol I'm in the minority because I don't really like Shinjiro (I don't hate him either, he isn't a bad character but it's just something about him that I don't know why I don't like him) and I like Ken. Ken is actually in my Top 5 list of fav Persona 3 characters which is saying something, since all my other favorite characters are characters like Aigis, Mitsuru, Yukari and Koromaru, characters that are quite popular. I got the message that Atlus was giving out about this moment but when I introduce it to my friends, they say it's Ken's fault. I never really got it because he didn't pull the trigger, he didn't push Shinjiro into the bullet. He was willing to take the bullet since he was going to do the same after he got revenge for his mom. When Shinjiro died, he blames himself until he talks with Akihiko, who doesn't blame him for what happened. If Akihiko, Shinjiro's best friend, doesn't hate him, why should we hate Ken?
There's one situation where I hate how Shinjiros death is handled, this is in the female version of P3p as I find what you can do in that game bullshit (yeah it's not canon but seriously) not going in detail as I don't wanna spoil the female version
I directly talked about the female version in this video so I kinda spoiled it already. I do feel like it's kind of dumb that you save him, but he gets put into a coma for the rest of the game because PLOT CONVENIENCE!
Why would they let him live if he's STILL gonna be absent for the rest of the game.
To you, which Persona user antagonist was the most threatening one? Takaya, Adachi or Akechi?
It's... hard. Objectively speaking, Akechi killed the most people (although I think Strega's "assassination service" is implied to have succeeded a few times in the past, and you see at least one of them), but most of that was offscreen so Adachi's and Takaya's murders feel more personal. And despite Takaya only killing one party member and being pathetic in battle, he's the only one of the three who was WILLINGLY supporting a world-destroying Eldritch Abomination, as opposed to the other two unwittingly doing their work. So I'm tempted to say him.
If this was to establish Strega as a threat, they did a bad job. They're still a joke when you fight them. I'm not against Shinjiro dying and I don't hate Ken but I feel like Shinji never truly overcame his guilt of killing Ken's mom because he died. It could have been handled better.
Strega really should've been handled better as boss fights. If you keep watching this, you'll see that I had to intentionally hold back in the Strega fights just to show off what they could do.
Perfect i can't say anything is wrong here
So i might as talk about Ken adama aka the the most controversial character in persona 3 in this part
-man it is interesting to look back how back this scence, some people blamed ken and wanted him dead. People didn't see the projection and really didn't like how he played. Guess it didn't help that Ken's original english voice actor wasn't the best.
Now people have different complaints with Ken. Where after his awakening, he doesn't do that munch in the story and has this "hey I am still in this story". Also it feels more like shinjiro and Ahiniko's story then ken alot of the times, atleast with the original. There also ken's soical link with portable. Sure it gives Ken more screen time and development, but......he an romance link for the female protagonist despite at best he starting puberty.....yeah.
In the movie, they did do a interesting twist with ken and shinjiro relationship, where ken idolize shijiro but figure he was the one that accidentally kill his mother. Have to said that actually a pretty good twist, even if their a bit of dark comedy vibe to it. It like "hey that guy look up and becoming big brother figure, yeah he a reason why your a orphan, life sucks kid!
So far relaod not only help shinjiro more screen time, but also more screen and devoplement time for the game(without that elpehant in the room). Also ken in reload gameplay is alot better. I mean him having kogu skills along makes him better, but the karn skills are nice.
Will said I lIke FeMc x shinjro, yeah it does have that the gloomy boy and manic pixie girl type, but i like to see FeMc showing her more true depressed side to shinjiro
15:46
unless its aerith.
cause you are suppoed to hate sepharoth.
I bet her and Birthright! eliese get along well... selling flowers and using magic...
Aerith was a decent death, but this one was ruined for a different reason: becoming such a meme that it's hard to take seriously anymore. (Like the Darth Vader father reveal scene)
BigKlingy
Well thats just what hapoens when something is THAT insanly popular...
Luckily I did NOT have the I Am Your Father moment ruined for me...
Honestly I genuinely feel like a definitive release of Persona 3 could use doing away with some of the minor character Social Links in favor of giving us party member social links without a gender restriction to them. Like, I cannot be the only one who'd want to have Shinjiro as the male Social Link too over Nozomi Suemitsu. I have no disdain for any of the social links present on the male route, but I feel like a lot of the female Social Link options should be made available to the male protagonist.
Wtf Ken wears stockings?!
What… the… actual… HELL!?
Why would the people want Ken gone than Shinji!?
I know Shinji is a great character, I like Shinji, but why do the want Ken dead for pathetic reasons!?
Fans were dumb back then.
That is messed up and ken both shijore have thare ups and down
Off topic, I do remember way back during that Fire Emblem Fates character sorter, you said you were going to do one for Fire Emblem Awakening. I'm still waiting on that and still wondering what your choices are for your favorite characters. I mean, I know for a fact that Henry will be at the bottom for you, that much is obvious. I'm curious if this will still be a thing for you.
I might do that at some point. The main issue is I have very "meh" feelings on a lot of Awakening characters. There are quite a few I like, and quite a few I dislike (actually mostly just Henry), but most are in a bland "I'm neutral towards them" zone. Awakening's cast aren't really me favourites in the series.
He made some very soiled points
im one of the few who dont hate ken on top of that i dont hate shinji either
@13:12; There is one major difference - Shinjiro killed Ken's mother by accident - Ken attempted to kill Shinjiro *with intent*.
Those of us who hate Ken don't hate him because he killed a party member - as I mentioned on the previous video, this makes Shinjiro kind of a "And nothing of value was lost" character gameplay wise -, but that Ken intended to enact revenge.
Involuntary manslaughter is an entirely different beast than pre-meditated, as far as sentencing goes - and attempting to be judge, jury, and executioner makes Ken an unlikable protagonist.
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@13:33; As for that, well...remember that Ken was *going* to kill himself once he had gone through with the murder - and hypothetically, if Shinjiro hadn't tried to protect Ken on that second shot, he may have survived.
@13:55; Shinjiro though, with his late-game use, essentially falls into this trap anyways. The game doesn't split his exp up among Ken and Akihiko, so anything put into him is wasted, minus his equipment. (Which, IIRC, you couldn't even use without him until FES. You can't use it in Portable, which makes it even more less useful.)
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@14:33; Then perhaps if he wasn't on the team at all - Shinjiro actually has death flags on him without Ken being involved - since he was taking those pills that reduce life expectancy - they could've gone with "Character dies of Persona-Cancer."
Or even take Shinjiro out of the game as well and have Junpei take the hit from Takaya - would've made the same effect, and would've been with a character we actually had a minimal, if at least significant, amount of investment in him - what actually happens with Junpei later is cool, but kind of fits this exact same arc, with about as much attachment to the characters involved. (Even moreso, given changes FES put in around what ends up happening.)
Ken gets over his revenge though. He realises thinking that was wrong and vows to be a better person from then on. Yes, it took a death to do it, but he DOES change. I still don't like how people ignore that, and still think of him as a remorseless killer. And later Persona games have given redemption arcs to characters who've... let's just say, gone a little further than the planning stages. (In those cases, I understand why there'd be conflicted fan opinions)
13:55 Yeah in a lot of ways Shinjiro is not a big loss as a party member, seeing as he's basically a clone of Junpei just with no weaknesses or resistances, and Power Charge but he's not going to get that without over-leveling. With both Junpei and Aigis, there's no reason to have another physical party member.
oh dear... its not that bad... right? oh shit...
Could someone please explain on how Shinji being in a coma ruins Akihiko and Ken's character development? Because I don't see it.
Some people just think Akihiko giving his speech has less impact when it's not an Shinji's funeral.
@@BigKlingy Why? He still does the same thing exception to some lines changing to fit the comatose state.
17:07 oh goddammit dude pq spoiler i haven't beat it yet (and if your asking why i haven't it beat yet my save died and i had to start agin so i got dishearten)
This may bit off topic but since we talk about death in fiction, I still think the worst defenders of death in fiction is superhero comics. They do both sides of the extreme. The worst part of this that almost all the time, the characther that died will come back eventually( it just that when they would). It nearly almost happens every time in big time event comics. With D.C. Comics case it go so bad they made a frigging event comic about it and explain about why it happening so munch(blackest night which is green lantern) and with marvel they kinda make fun of it with stuff like marvel zombies. everytime a superhero dies in comics I just remind a robot chicken skit about batman getting tired of this death stuff. Say something that no major characthers is death in event comics is seen as a miracle. Sorry for that rant but if your a comic reader, you get really annoyed about this death stuff.
The problem with comic books is that most of the characters readers actually care about are extremely iconic and there's no way the publisher would give them up. Like really, would they REALLY kill Superman or Batman? That's like Nintendo killing Mario and never having another Mario game. It's just not going to happen, the character is too iconic and marketable.
It is silly just how many ways they can bring people back though. I haven't read the actual comics, but I've read summaries of some of the big crossover events they do to "fix" their continuity messes, and they sound hilarious. "We killed a bunch of characters but want them back. How do we do that?"
"I know! We'll have Superboy Prime literally punch the walls of reality repeatedly until all those deaths never happened. That makes total sense, right??"
Yeah I agree. This crap start from crisis on infinite earth (1980s) where a lot of sliver and gold age characthers( like the sliver age flash and original super girl, there like 2-4 super girl depended on who you ask) sarfiace themselves to save the mult universes,which became one hold universe......long story. By the way crisis on infinite is actually really good, but it started some stupid trend in comics.
Yeah superhero comics can get werid(escpically the sliver age, seriously look it up). Come to think about superheroes comics are way more werid then most manga and anime come to think about.
I hated Shinjiro before his death but after I love him.
See you when you make a Persona Q unused video because RUclips only recommending those kinds of videos.
...I hate the RUclips algorithm.
@@BigKlingy Yup. It like the Fates videos where I commented once and after that, I got Reddit TTS videos afterward. RUclips is literally recommending you every three years to me and every time I have a different username.
off topic, but the new FE heroes trailer... LOL.
suckbaki is the only one taking damage while the others are mostly critting lol. seems even the devs know how much he sucks.
Xander got hit too. (Also, did Hinoka's voice change? I'm sure she wasn't originally Cindy Robinson. This also means Hinoka is now Persona Q Ken)
I like Ursula's call-back to her original boss quote. "Tell me... are you afraid to die?" Really terrifying since she's got a long-range tome in a FoW map, so this line tends to come out of nowhere.
Yeah, Hinoka's voice is different. She was originally voiced by Elizabeth Daily, who's most famous (probably) for voicing Tommy Pickles in Rugrats.
BigKlingy
Xander got hit, but to be fair, he struck back.
Okay. Spoilers, first of all.
What's your opinion on the Persona 3 portable ending?
You know where he lives?9
I find it completely shoe horned in.
I like the fact Shinjiro got more development in the form of a social link. But I felt it was unnecessary, it took a lot of meaning out of his death.
The Social Link was good (heck, Shinjiro even has a portrait that you only see in Portable, so you're literally seeing a different side of him), but yeah I do feel like his survival was just fanservice. Especially since you don't even get to keep him as a party member.
Granted there's a romance option in Portable that I find even weirder, it doesn't make a lot of sense and it's kind of creepy if you think about it. But that's spoilers.
If they redo persona 3 as a definitive version I feel like they are going to replace the game ken with the movie ken, I still dont like him as I actually simply found him annoying and find the idea of femc being able to romance him and that if they keep her she will still be able to romance him cause atlus. I just find him annoying but hope that they improve him if they ever revisit p3 cause I dont feel like p4 or p5 were able to re doit, well p4 did have sertain aspects but I dont recall any on p5 or its expantion
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who the fuck is this guy talking about? Did he read too many gamefaq threads or something? who cares if some people dislike Ken?