I tried the Side B thing as a gay man. Never told anyone I was gay for the many years I was a member of that church, never slept with anyone or did anything with another man. That all ended one day when I explained to one woman that had been pushing real hard for me to date her daughter why I wasn't interested. I was shunned by my fellow congregants and released from my position doing free A.V. support and janitorial work for the church. Side B is just Side X that's too coward to admit it in the face of public opinion. I go to a church in the ELCA (Lutheran) denomination now instead.
What I don’t get is how someone who experiences sexual attraction to unmarried women (a sinful attraction which would be a serious sin if acted on) but remains celibate is any different from someone else who experiences sexual attraction to men (a sinful attraction which would be a serious sin if acted on) but remains celibate. If you’re going to ban celibate men who experience gay attraction from being priests, it seems to me that you must also ban unmarried men, or married men that experience sexual attraction to anyone but their respective wives. Which is a completely silly position to hold, completely incompatible with years of Christian history.
Well said. The difference between and application of works-based and desires-based views of sin has always been confusing and inconsistent, and as a result, many people seem to just apply whichever they want to whatever position they feel like. The conflict is even more stark when you consider that for the denominations who mandate clergy celibacy, their entire clergy is suppressing their (presumably) heterosexual desires, yet they think this is not only fine, but welcomed; whereas clergy who are suppressing their homosexual desires are…not?
His channel is more about presenting information, not a commentary of his own views. Unless you mean presenting facts of views of certain church denominations on the I-P conflict. In that case I'd wager it's difficult to find that kind of information.
@@ninjason57Consider that different denominations have different views on Israel’s role in end times. Depending on a denomination’s eschatology they may be very interested in this conflict (as it plays in to various end-times scenarios) or they may consider Israel as just another nation and not of any real Biblical interest or note for the New Testament Church. So you’re correct that it’s outside this channel’s scope to talk about the current conflict with Israel and Iran, talking about the various denominations eschatology may touch on it, and is in scope.
@@ninjason57 I have once seen Useful Charts reply to a comment on one of his videos and say that he is "definitely not a Zionist", I imagine his thoughts on the Hamas conflict are complicated though.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. Parsimonius = very unwilling to spend money or use resources (according to Google, I didn't know what that word meant until now).
No, on a couple of videos even conservatives have gently challenged him on constantly throwing gays under the bus. He is not at all neutral on this issue, he's even spread misinformation about it. I get that you may prefer that he promote your agenda, but most people would prefer not to be lied to, wherever they stand on the issue. He's incredibly manipulative and underhanded about it.
As an outside viewer that just finds studying religion fascinating, I think a lot of this discussion shows that there is a distinct difference between "What a denomination teaches" and "What the people in the church believe and do." Sure, there will be people that align completely with the denomination, but in my experience and what I see in discussions like this is that that's far from unanimous. It shows that religions are more complicated than just "official teachings"
You could also see how Christianity got the diagnosis of human condition right. We are lovers of lies and darkness. We want to make reality bend to our desires. This got us kicked out of Eden. This also explains all the denominations. People would rather create a new one that fits their desires.
@@PetarStamenkovic I mean, you could say that about most religions really. Most religions have stuff to say about the human condition, and also have a variety of denominations and groups
the underlying problem being "what a denomination teaches". If your church / faith claims that everyone gets to interpret scripture however they like, they don't have a leg to stand on when the congregation falls into heresy.
@@sammysamlovescats It is true that division and confusion is not unique to Christianity, but Christianity gets it right on any topic. Take for example what human nature is. Many people, religions and worldviews insist that we, humans, are fundamentally good and that we like truth. Those religions and philosophies are dangerously wrong. Truth unites, lies fracture. Truth is one, lies are innumerable. Only truth can save us.
Christianity gets it wrong a lot of times. It is only through the grace of God that we are not destroyed a few times already. Humanity are learning, but also making new mistakes. Don't cover up failures, but serve as witness so others can learn.
As someone who has had to live my entire life as celibate to honor God's command; When I was in my lowest point, and deepest struggle, I felt God say "Anything you include in your identity that is not 'My life is fully surrendered to Christ' is idolatry." Many days are still a struggle, and I often pray for strength to deal with the temptations and loneliness. But because my identity is in Christ alone and for Christ alone, I find strength to overcome my sinful brokenness.
I converted to Christianity from atheism by way of reading philosophy. I converted in private and chose a church to attend based on the simplicity of their name. I didn't understand the nuances of denominations and theology I only understood that Christ died for my sin and that every knee shall bow to Christ. The scriptures that convinced me were Matthew 5 and 1st Corinthians 1 (very important). Immediately afterward I was overwhelmed by every Christian I met and half the unbelieving world with the, in my view, strange question, what kind of Christian are you? In hindsight I recognized my state as a new believer naturally holding to Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Lutheran views of the Bible. This while simultaneously using a caricature of the different denominations to differentiate, judge and condemn different denominations. My point is that is I personally experience the political nature of Christendom and the desire to qualify myself before Christ. Or the contrast of: "my identity is in Christ alone and for Christ alone" My friend you are not alone. You and I are the same and we have been snatched from the condemning fire of our ego by Christ's strong and loving hand. Christ alone is also this former atheist's "mantra". When I was a new Christian I understood that given time I would also understand the nuances between denominations but I was forced to play politics and choose a side. Few ever asked me what school of philosophy I had previously adhered to. Only a few friends a Priest and my wife. The Elders and Pastors and Rabbis and Preachers didn't care, they wanted met to choose a side. So now it is the LGBTQ community's (which is hardly a community at all) turn. All of Christendom shouts in unison "choose a side, choose a side, choose our side or you're hell bound but quickly choose a side!"
@@finnkuudere3516 What was that philosophy? Why do you believe the bible to be the standard of truth of the word of god? Why make the decision to make this change in the face of insufficient evidence? What do you think of the idea of someone praying to god asking the truth of such questions, and getting the answer that the bible is untrustworthy as it is not his inerrant word? What possible suggestions do you have for someone who tries to repent of their sins, but instead of being able to be happy as promised, they are only miserable? Any counter you have to this question I require some more backing up then just "they aren't trying to repent hard enough." Say something original. Why do we need jesus' sacrifice in the first place? I have several reasons to question this, and each one you will find to be next to impossible to counter without some apologetics that can just be torn down. ...and so on and so forth.
As an atheist who is interested in Christianity from an academic perspective, your videos are an excellent resource! Thank you for sharing such nuanced and informed insights into the denominations of your faith, and your devotion to delivering unbiased, plainly-presented information!
As a Christian, I find it interesting how many churches never preach about the sins of greed, laziness, pride, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony. Or Yet stay silent on divorced members who remarry or live together outside of marriage. Is homosexuality, abortion more of a sin because most of their members have not partaken of either of them???
Uh. Yeah, that's how it works. Kind of like how we think murder is worse than shoplifting because fewer of us have murdered. ...Did you also have a serious question, or are we done here?
@@SuppressedOfficialI would think common sense would make it clear that greed is objectively worse than homosexuality. Simply observe how it impacts the world around us. Besides, I think confessing a sexual attraction to the same sex is little different than a pastor harbouring sexual attraction to married woman. Despite that, there is a clear bias against the former. It's not worse than heterosexual lust, it's just more unusual. It's very simple hypocrisy imo.
@@Copperkaiju You know, you could have whined about bias twenty years ago. In fact, people did. But today, we know what happens when you try to be "inclusive" of these people: they destroy your entire nation and start mutilating your children. Your argument no longer works. Thanks. Bye!
Side X is the historical christianity position. Side A is the current cultural position reflected in the church. Side B is a compromise between them. Is it a healthy compromise or a slippery slope? I'll have to get back to you in 50 years for that one.
It is a slippery slope, and even Preston Sprinkle in his podcast they talk about how people on side B goes to side A when they experience "church hurt." Side B is as close to side A as you can get, especially ontologically speaking it's indistinguishable. It is a works based theology, "just don't do it." is their motto. Having lived in side b, it was depressing. Always seeing straight people and gay people having relationships, but none for you! Well, the truth sets you free. I'm side X. What was unfortunately NOT shared in this video is the reason side X is OPPOSITE of side A is not just because of the belief of the identity, behavior, but because the church doctrine of sanctification (such WERE some of you, 1 Cor 6:11) is the truth. I have experienced transformation in my desires, my same sex erotic attraction mortified, not by my will or works, but by Jesus. Side B says God doesn't do that!! Side X is freedom from homosexuality, restoration to heterosexuality, which is how God made EVERY person. Side B teaches God doesn't will to restore us. That sin remains until we die.
If you speak only of the aspects of a male having sex with a male, then perhaps there is a point about the historicity of Side X. But to claim that religious circles had considered one's natural orientation prior to the 19th century, when the word "homosexual" was coined, is an anachronism. My point is not to start an argument here but to call people to a more literal view of scripture where nothing is added, changed or removed.
To be Side X, you must deny the reality of what sexual orientation is and how it works. A "gay Christian" is a "Christian who experiences same-sex attractions" and vice versa. Neither is sinful by any self-consistent theological framework. The "It's not a sin to be gay, just a sin to *act on it*" approach is the only "reasonable" anti-LGBTQ+ position for Christians.
Look at history. Bolsheviks don't like Christians, so they erode where they can't h-bomb. See timeline in US of removing prayer from school, removing 10 commandments from court houses... ffwd to baphomet in town square at Christmastime. Lgbq etc is a political construct used to destroy the fabric of Christian society. In the olden days we sat in church with our gay members... who, like all of us, lived day to day with whatever issue kept us in the margins. It's necessary to have a strong fabric to anchor, instead of fray, the margins
I am an EPC teaching elder (retired) and was not at the GA. I want to thank you for your attention to this ongoing issue in all of the Kingdom. I do not know what the future holds but I know who is in charge... Thanks again and I look forward to your other posts
Yeah it’s weird seeing splits over this. One would think splits would happen more on the absolute core fundamentals like Christology or church polity or eschatology, but nope for some reason Protestant churches in America divide themselves over something very material with an obvious answer.
@@saldol9862 We see the same happening with lay Catholics too. How many ordinary European Catholics support LGBT and other unChristian cultural norms? A lot, maybe even a majority. Even American Catholics like Joe Biden are pro-LGBT and pro-abortion.
Thanks for taking the time to help sort out the different views of American Christians on the vexed issue of homosexuality. The Church cannot hope to escape controversies roiling the wider culture and society. Charity in all things.
Your videos are great! They provide excellent information on the subject matter for further reflection. Keep 'em coming! Thanks for all your hard work and analysis!
If you want to actually read a comment from someone experienced in this space: I have been in SSA/Side B land for years (I've been to Revoice and have met many of the individuals and organizations mentioned here). And I will say, I think this topic has become confusing and almost unnavigable semantically for Christians who have not studied or lived within this debate. Everyday christians aren't being offered these abstract terms like 'homosexualism' or 'homosexual self-conception' from the pews, and the 'Side ABXY' whatever language does nothing to bring clarity or goodwill to the conversation. I see many Christians just deciding that this topic does not warrant nuance (unlike many other theological topics which widely receive sympathy and where complex views are respected) perhaps because the terminology feels meaningless and too far removed from Scripture itself. But instead of listening to those who can actually speak to the queer x Christian intersection with meaningful Biblical interpretation that gets deeper than 'Side [Blank]' sort of language, many actively seek to just silence what they see as gay Christian 'slippery slope' BS by throwing a meaningless one-liner into the comment sections of content like this and giving themselves a pat on the back for their superior Scriptural interpretations. (Do I have to say - WWJD folks?) But regardless of what these denominations are publishing from their many 'assemblies', those of us who are not finding ourselves within heterosexuality cannot just sit by and wait for our faith communities to decide what they will let us do. There's a reason that the Side B community has primarily existed online and not in actual church spaces so far. We need to know for ourselves what godly embodiment of all sexualities looks like now, not in 2026 EPC. These 'statements on human sexuality' feel more like houses built on sand than substantial takes on what the Bible says. They keep changing, so we haven't been able to rely on churches being safe spaces as a result no matter what 'side' we land on. Thank you for your covering of this topic.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I know it may sound inflammatory, but I'm legitimately curious if you would be comfortable with an individual referring to themselves as a zoophile or ephebophile Christian?
Yes. That is inflammatory. Children cannot consent. And it's interesting; according to Leviticus, a zoophile is only perverted, but I'm an abomination. After 30 years of celibacy, I'm still gay. No new creation.
God has already spoken in His Word as far as what He will let us do. The only appropriate use for sex is in a marriage between one man and one woman. Regardless of our desires or wishes, we must agree with God if we wish to be pleasing to Him. No matter how much I might feel attracted to someone else's spouse, or property, for that matter; I do not identify myself as a Lustful Christian. Just reject what God rejects. I speak as one who has made the choice to reject same-sex attraction as God has commanded in His Word.
Still waiting for that population analysis video about the Catholic Church... This topic was very interesting, we rarely hear the actual theological distinctions of such denominations in their own words. I love all of these topics you do, keep em coming!
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
As a Jewish person this debate is so interesting to me because it’s now hardly even controversial in Modern Orthodox circles whether it’s a problem for someone to identify as gay but be celibate - because our practice is tied to whether you observe the law or not rather than adherence to a particular creed or dogma. The main problem with such a practice is that it disables you from keeping the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, but some people say that being gay would put you in the category of someone unable to have children for other reasons. We had our own misadventures with conversion therapy but it’s so clear at this point that it doesn’t work that we have to find a way to adapt Other comments are saying that this is a simple issue but for me it really underlines the theological differences between Judaism and Christianity which is interesting.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace choices
Continue using it. "Same-sex attracted" exists in order to provide a sterilized, more clinical-sounding term that paints sexual orientation as an affliction or a struggle. If someone abbreviated it to just SSA, I'll occasionally pretend I don't know what their acronym is supposed to mean.
Very well researched. I know the late Rev. Keller came up in this a lot, he was one of the authors of the PCA’s position paper on sexuality that came out in 2020.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
How about instead of trying to identify as a gay Christian, you just identify as Christian and affirm the Bible's teaching on marriage? Our identity is in Christ, not our sexuality. The modern world is obsessed with sexuality because it is a worship of the self. No one is identifying as an alcoholic Christian or adulterous Christians because our sins don't define us anymore.
If our identity is in Christ, then how can women be Christians? They are identifying as a man, which makes them trans, which is wrong per conservative Christianity. Ergo, women can’t be Christians.
YES, no identifies as a Cat Burglar Night Thief Christian, or (someone who sleeps with prostitutes once a week on a regular basis being a prostitutes customer) a John Christian.
A huff and puff that would've blown their house down if they had accepted the Nicene Creed, this little line being the explosive bit, "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness/remission of sins".
@alisterrebelo9013 You should check out Gavin Ortlund's recent video discussing this. He provides a good case for why this line from the Nicene Creed isn't a problematic statement for the SBC to affirm. It is, after all, a direct quote (or nearly so) from Scripture.
@@24psmithOrtlund did violence to the Creed in his “explanation.” He twisted the Nicene Creek’s verbiage to mean something that the Council Fathers did not accept.
The Catholic Church is “Side Y.” Side Y can be summarized like this: 1) homosexual attraction (as the the Catechism teaches) is “intrinsically disordered” 2) the mere experience of temptation is not itself a personally culpable sin. Acting/dwelling in the temptation is sinful 3) gay men are banned from entering the seminary/priesthood 4) the use of terms like “a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction” can be allowed in certain contexts, so long as the primary identifier remains Christian and not the attraction. Terms like “gay Christian” are typically discouraged/seen as needlessly confusing/imprudent
That is the Catholic Church's position, but that's not a Side Y position, it's a Side B position. Side Y tries to straddle between Sides A and B, and claims both have incorrect points.
If you hold the position that you cannot consider yourself a "gay Christian" you are not Side B. Churches like that prefer terms like "same-sex attracted" which are sterilized, more "clinical" sounding terms in order to shed the positive connotation of words like "gay". You are "gay" if you are attracted to the same sex, regardless of whether you choose to act on those attractions or have sex at all.
Thank you so much for all the investigative work you have put into this! Personally, all of the hair-splitting among denominations strikes me as so much "sowing tares among the wheat." For those that don't know, tares are a type of grass that look SO MUCH like wheat - almost identical, in fact, and can definitely pass at first glance - until the harvesttime. Only wheat bear a unique kernel, though, and the weight of these kernels causes their heads to bow when they're matured and ready to be harvested. The tare heads, with their lighter seeds, simply remain unbowed, so it's easy to tell them apart then. More than one metaphorical meaning can be extracted here. Because sexual sin is clearly and unambiguously delineated in all its permutations in the Bible, it is really a matter of humble obedience. The subject can be made endlessly complex, and the reasons for doing so may have the appearance of empathy and compassion, but are really only muddying the glass. It's simple enough. God ordains but ONE type of sex (Married - between 2 people -and Heterosexual) and strongly repudiates all other kinds. As a straight woman in this century who wasn't submitted to and Saved by God until early middle age, I experienced years of fornication and even adultery before reading the holy verses that convicted me. I also experienced the natural consequences of great unhappiness and empty unfulfillment for those sins. God is right in His reasons for warning us in His Word to NOT commit unsanctified sex. I don't have to have had ALL the different types of forbidden sex to know that ANY and ALL are prohibited for good reasons. And just as we trust and obey about any and all of his stated prohibitions of every kind, in this area, submission is the only viable response. The lusts of the flesh which may seem "so all important!' today will not trouble anyone in Eternity, where souls are truly Free. Jesus is Coming - let's be ready for Him. Everything else pales in comparison.
It seems to me that Church of the Nazarene calling themselves side B was absolutely not mandated by their doctrinal statements. Someone inside the denomination is trying to tip the scales on that one.
i love learning about religion, but i actually think my favorite part of this channel is seeing everyone in the comments asserting their own conflicting religious opinions as the most obvious truth. fascinating
Every topic is like this, especially politics. Religion at least has the excuse that it is the most important thing in life because it deals with ultimate truth.
@@VirginMostPowerfull i think that's exactly what makes religious topics so interesting to me. i don't believe in any gods or supernatural things, so i observe religion through a sociological / psychological lens. it's interesting to see how many "ultimate truths" there are to different people
I get it. As an Eastern Orthodox, I don't have any strong views on homosexuality and transgenderism in other faiths (they can do whatever they like as far as I'm concerned), but it is interesting to see how passionate people in the US are about this niche topic.
@@octavianpopescu4776 i think people generally tend to feel more passionate about the topics that personally effect them, and less about the topics that don't personally effect them
I am side B, calling myself a gay Christian. This offends many people and they seem to not care that I have been celibate 20 years. Part of coming to the Lord was admitting what I am, and that many of my behaviors was not grieving for my best friend who committed suicide a long time ago. I still get called the 'F' word, also sodomite and abomination (also apostate, a JW thing). I no longer care what a mere man calls me. I only care what the Living God thinks of me.
It was brave of you to admit that. I can appreciate how much of a challenge it must be to me a faithful Christian and living a pure life with such orientation being part of your makeup. My prayers for you, and God's blessings
I really relate to what you’re saying as a bisexual Christian! People really don’t understand why someone could call themselves a queer and also a Christian, God bless you!
You are really a Side Y Christian because at the core it seems that you acknowledge that your identity is a "child of God" trumps all other identities, as seen by your commitment to celibacy for 20 years. Side A: Gay sex is not a sin. Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not. Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not. Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
truth be known If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Side Y lies between Side B and Side X. Basically, the spectrum of "sides" looks like this: Side A: Gay sex is not a sin. Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not. Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not. Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
@@reeferfranklin None. If you think Y is the correct view, you are outside of all theological movements be it conservative or liberal. Its good to know where one stands, even if alone.
I think side B is pretty accurate. The only thing I would abstain from is using terms like "gay Christian" or "queer Christian". Not really because of the identification problem because it can also be just a neutral description, but because of it's cultural context. These terms are often used by people who claim to be Christian while living a homosexual lifestyle and denying the sinfulness of this. I personally never refer to myself as "gay Christian" or "gay" in general to avoid any misconceptions. But if someone is more comfortable with that, I don't think it's sinful to use it. I think there is a hard line when it comes to homosexual acts. I think when you're at a point where you don't see anything wrong with living an openly homosexual lifestyle, you're doctrine is no longer Christian because it is directly attacking the foundations of Christianity. The terminology and how to best refer to oneself is a question of personal preference and debatable, the sinfulness of homosexual acts is not.
Yeah, same here. I know some Christians who were gay that have been made straight (not through some program, but through their own faith experience). So that is real. But other believers have scrambled sexual attractions that don't go away, and they're still able to live faithfully. I agree that the term "gay Christian" is not something I would use. In the cultural context "I'm gay" usually means rejecting a lot of scripture and sexual morality, as something we are holding against God. But even "straight" includes adultery and pron and casual sex. So we're not aiming to be merely gay or straight, but Biblical.
Gays are born gay! Being gay is not - is not - a choice!!! Yes, indiscriminate sexuality is a choice, but choosing a male partner and not a woman for a gay person is not a choice! After 88 years of life, I can say this. Polygamy is a choice pure and simple! These are not really comparable!
In the Catholic Church I think we've always been somewhere between Side X and Side B. We've always taught that homosexual activity is sinful, even mortally sinful. (As in, you will go to Hell for it, even if you're otherwise a faithful Christian.) We've also always taught that transgender identity is inherently unintelligible, with Pope Francis calling it the second worst thing in the Western world after abortion. But we've also never taught that homosexual attraction is inherently sinful, and the Church admits that there may be biological reasons behind it. The Church even now allows for blessings of same-sex couples who wish to break free of their sinful relationships. Thus, experiencing same-sex attraction is not a sin in and of itself - but it is a temptation that may cause someone to sin by having unchaste thoughts, masturbating, or engaging in homosexual activity. The Church even used to allow homosexual-attracted priests, as long as they affirmed Church teaching that homosexual activity is sinful. But on that issue we've actually moved from Side B to Side X, as we no longer allow for any homosexual priests through seminary. I'm not exactly sure why they changed that rule; it might have had something to do with the sexual abuse crisis.
These comments show homophobia is alive and well. It's this issue that may convince me Christianity is a farce. No, I'm not interested in your "but condemning gay is loving actually" rants. Lots of you out here mocking a pain you have not endured
Cry me a river, and then stay away from our children, you sicko. Boo hoo, muh oppression! You're not oppressed, oppressed people don't have the freedom to cry 24/7 about something
yeah its definitely one of the things that pushed me out of the church, after a long time of wanting to stay and hoping maybe there was a space for me, i just could not tolerate being in a space where the « correct » belief required being cruel to others who were not hurting anyone
The real issue is about leaders sexually abusing their subordinates. Whether priests, ministers, teachers, or any other authority, leaders should not indulge their sexual desires upon a person in their charge.
Certainly that's a big issue, though secular institutions are full of sexual abuse while only criticising others. Statistics suggest that opposing homosexuality helps in combating sexual abuse, but much more is also needed.
@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts That’s not true. I just found multiple studies from government agencies that say the percentage of abusers that are homosexual is 0% to 3.1%. These limits are within current estimates of the prevalence of homosexuality in the general community.
So...I'm of the opinion that Side Y is likely the most theologically cirrect position...what I'm unaware of is which denominations actually fall into the category of Side Y?
Here's an excellent video on that, a discussion between an eastern orthodox priest and a doctor who is now an episocpal priest from a decade ago. Both seem to take the "Side Y" stance, which also seems to be that of the Holy Fathers of the early church from what I've read and seen. ruclips.net/video/PCdU_0UA78o/видео.html
Catholics would fall into Side Y. Based on what I've seen other people say. I haven't investigated Side B and Y personally. Side A: Gay sex is not a sin. Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not. Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not. Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
When we have to reason amongst ourselves to find out what God means and use democratic practices to decide what God means, then God is not part of the conversation. That process itself is the removal from God, not the subject matter being discussed. The essence and foundation about God is the communication with Him.
2 Timothy 4:3 (CSB) "For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear"
I like how Protestants spring into action against Catholics with "justification through faith alone," but then when it comes to sexuality, suddenly the theology becomes works-based.
@@sufiameen6093 it's funny when you ask a non-Catholic Christian to show you in the Bible where sola scriptura can be found they never have and answer because it's not in there. What came before the Bible was TRADITION which they deny.
That were quite interesting cases how denominations deal with LGBTQ issues that aren’t affirming. The official position of the Catholic Church is probably best described by side-B since conversion therapy is rejected and the church acknowledges that there are people with same sex attractions btw. I would say the topic of how to minister to LGBTQ people is very important. You can find a lot of homophobic comments on the internet (also below this video) that aren’t in any way charitable towards gay Christians and just view their existence as a bogeyman towards „biblical“ Christianity. That this hate leads to self-doubt and hurting among LGBTQ Christians is self-evident. So it’s really important to have ministries that walk with LGBTQ Christians in love and be on their eye level and not from above - and I don’t see how side x can archive that in any way
No matter how you cut it, expecting gay people to stay celibate for life for no reason other than ‘the bible said so’ is itself what is hurting and keeping lgbt ppl away from your Churches. Why don’t you go ask straight people to do that and let me know how they react! Your own Pope refers to gay people using slurs. Religion is a human made invention used to oppress others, nothing more, nothing less.
@@fujikokun well one very prominent side b Christian that‘s also Catholic is Eve Tushnet. I would interpret the statements from the current Vatican magisterium in context with the Catholic teachings on sex and marriage as a side b approach, there are enough Catholic lgbt organizations and I think the Catholic church doesn’t prohibit the use of the word „gay Christian“, is against the criminalization of homosexual activities and conversion therapy.
@@simonkraemer3725 You can find black people that are pro slavery. 99% of gay people do not accept your bigoted ideology that threatens them with eternity in hell for daring to love a person of the same sex. And 99% of straight Christians wouldn’t accept lifelong celibacy either.
@@RationalistMH I mean, doesn't the Catholic church ask all of its priests, bishops, friars, monks, and nuns to do that? It also teaches its married couples to avoid contraceptive methods (beyond keeping up with the menstrual cycle to determine when the wife is less likely to be fertile), thereby limiting their sexual behavior to a far larger degree than most Protestants do. So yeah, I think it's absolutely consistent with the general Vatican policies on sex.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
As a bisexual Christian I’m side B all the way, and it’s a complex issue. People often wonder why we need to emphasize that we are not straight, but the thing is that all the trauma, difficulties and self hate we would have to go through dealing with the opinions and thoughts of others inn the Christian community, it’s really a lot. So it’s not that weird LGBTQ Christian’s are leaving churches as they have been treated poorly and often been misunderstood…we have to understand that we all are sinners and we all are on the same line in front of God, that’s what the gospel is all about! We all need grace and forgiveness from God, gays aren’t more sinful just because they have different temptation than straights. So I have no problem using bisexual Christian as a description because I would like to signal to others that no matter what you struggle with or deal with you can have a relationship with Jesus and be saved, and also create a loving and caring community for all people who have faith inn Jesus Christ!
Your belief fundamentally undermines the doctrine of sanctification. If you really believe that God condemns any same-sex relationship you may want to have, why does He not help you overcome your desires? And why are the desires themselves somehow okay? Is it okay to “look but don’t touch?” And don’t misunderstand me - I’m not condemning you for your bisexuality. I personally am a gay man. But the issue is, if you really believe Jesus when He condemns hatred and lust along with murder and adultery, then to remain logically consistent you have to either reject that same-sex relationships are sinful, or you would have to “mortify your desires” by becoming heterosexual/asexual. Which I’m sure you know is impossible. Please, reconsider what you believe about this issue. God is good and does not let His people anguish in sinful desires with no sign of sanctification. Your Heavenly Father loves you and wants what’s best for you. If He does not help you to overcome your desires to be in a gay relationship, it’s because there was nothing that needed to be overcome in the first place.
@@tylerjornov I’m not even SSA and what you said was very edifying for me… I struggle with p*** and other temptations to adultery with women. What you said is very true. And God lets us suffer unto sanctification.
We are all sinners and all need to sincerely repent. The issue is that some dont believe homosexual acts need repentance. The people who struggle with same sex attraction, but repent when they trip up are to be lauded for their commitment to holiness in a society that celebrates such sin.
I’m a Side B Christian… trying to crucify the flesh daily. I appreciate this balanced and respectful explanation of the controversy. Keeping in mind that this church “controversy” boils down to individual humans and hearts, all wrestling and striving
I wish you well. A lot of Side B Christians struggle to find congregations that are not Side B on paper but Side Y or X in practice. I think a great example of that is churches that claim to be Side B, but won't ordain "same-sex attracted" clergy. If the sexual orientation "temptation" is not sinful, and only "the act" is, then a celibate gay preacher is doing everything asked of them. I've heard too many stories of gay Side B Christians who do everything their church expects of them and follow all the rules and are still assumed to be sinning because they think of themselves as "gay".
If I may ask-how do you reconcile your acknowledgement that God created you as homosexual with the belief that he commands you not to be? In other words, what’s preventing you from going to side A?
Its The first minute and I've already got many questions: Why is side A, the first letter of the alphabet given to the affirming side, which is a later development? Why is side A compared to side X? I'd have understood side V and side X or side A and B, but not A and X.
In the Greek alphabet (original written language of the NT) the “X” was the 1st letter of the word (representing) “Christ.” In (very)early church history, the “X” was used in reference to Christ (or cross). A possible (logical) theory would be that “side X,” would represent that of what consisted in the (original) 1st century(1st several centuries) of the Christian “church.” The Gospel/Christ hasn’t changed, man has…
@@chasityrhodus7299 thank God we have! Imagine living in a world like they did without technology, medicine, the internet, cars, planes, running water, air conditioning. Sometimes I wonder if Jesus could have imagined all these things and why he still chose to speak to the population he did when 2000 years later the internet and Google translate would have greatly expedited his mission.
All this messing around with "personal identity" seems very weird to me, even outside the context of sexual ethics. If you're humble, then ideas about self-identification and self-expression should barely ever even cross your mind
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@readytoharvest i've seen some great videos recently on obscure Christian churches. I think you are a maestro with your content creation. It be amazing if you did some videos on those churches as well. Especially the Christian Community (Anthroposophy), Liberal Catholic Church, and the neo-Gnostic churches today (Ecclesia Gnostica, Eglise Gnostique Apostolique). They are fascinating heterodox churches that would be be great informational video material.
As a Catholic, I find this conversation to be insane. The Bible is pretty clear about homosexuality and the ordination of women. If your church allows for one or both of these things, you should probably try reading your Bible.
@@fakename-r7q Tolerating, or even worse promoting, sin is the most hateful thing a person can do. You are potentially dooming that person to an eternity of suffering because you are too afraid to speak the truth to them To be clear, we should never be bigoted. Sexual sin is the same whether it's homosexuality or a man cheating on his wife. Both are sinful and equally so. We shouldn't be more aggressive against one of these sins or the other just because one is more "mainstream". They are both sins and the role of the church should always be to lead people away from their sinful desires. That said, we shouldn't enshrine sins in our churches or in our lives to protect the feelings of others. The teachings of Christ have always been transgressive and we should never water it down to make it more palatable to the masses, just as St. Paul advises against in his letter to the Galatians.
Very good that you mention the diversity with many possible views, and that there are also different views within the same denomination too. For example in the denomination where I´m a member - Church of Sweden (our equivalent to church of England) the view differs between congregations and individual priests and individual parish members. Personally I guess I can be labled as having some thoughts in common with some variant of the B-perspective, but I have a complicated view.. On a national level Church of Sweden has both "same sex marriage" and women priests, but in one of the congregations I visit often in Göteborg, Swedens 2d largest town, neither such marriages nor women priests would be possible - because the congregations members simply want it to be so, Also the priests have a formal right to perform marriages, but not the duty to do it, so the priests have some freedom. Also on other issues the large differences today are often not between the denominations - but straight through them. I go to where I believe that there is a divine presence. I sometimes go to other denominations, for example the Catholic Church. The Catholic vicar in our town actually preaches more Lutheran than some priests in my own Lutheran church. I´m sort of an ecumeical non denominational christian, but I have my "base" in Church of Sweden. I´d say I´m a theologically conservatige christian - but maybe not a typical such, being also christian & vegan, and animal rights activist, inspired by professor & priest Andrew Linzey in England, pastor Frank Hoffman in USA, and other well known names in the "veggie-christian movement".🙂
As an affirming Christian, I wish more denominations would simply allow for diversity of belief in this area. We should show love to all people but beyond showing that love we should not be splitting our churches apart over this.
Not going to happen, unfortunately. That requires nonaffirming Christians to concede that others think and act differently within their own lives, and there's nothing they can do about it. Which they view as "encouraging sin". 🤦♂️
But every time they "allow for diversity of belief", the Progressive Christians just wait until they have 51% of the power, then start trying to purge and exclude everyone who won't agree with them. Not that traditional Christians can really complain, since that's what Christianity itself did in Rome. Appealing for others to have tolerance and diversity until you're the majority, then instantly flipping and betraying those ideals.
@@abaddon2148 unfortunately there is plenty of judgement happening from the affirming side as well. Just recently a clergy person of relatively high standing in my denomination expressed that they were not saddened at the conservative churches leaving, it gave off kind of a “good riddance” attitude that I think is very inappropriate.
right on If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
When it comes to the Word of God, there is not "allowing for diversity of belief". 1 Cor. 1 plainly shows the apostle Paul preaching that Christians MUST believe the _same_ doctrines, have the _same_ judgement, and practice the _same_ traditions. The "love" you're talking about isn't true love. It's a lie. Love doesn't affirm or support lawless living, let alone allow ppl to destroy themselves by telling them that what they're doing is okay.
We must continue to share Truth - in 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, where we called ourselves gay Christians. Then I found myself in an ICU where the medical team classified me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind of perversion, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
@@CrossAndWindMinistries I am unaware of any reliable mechanism that is able to differentiate between a "natural" NDE and a "supernatural" NDE. I would ask you to cite the peer reviewed and published paper that you based your determination on, but I know that you won't because you can't because you have nothing. You claim to have had an experience, so now you believe you are the "special one" who out of the billions of non Christians on the planet your god chose to turn up and introduce itself, but instead of presenting your evidence of this encounter and winning yourself the Templeton prize, you post on RUclips. Lmfao
All I hear when I see the different "types" of Christanity is "did God really say?" If we have to make concessions for His Word, then it shows we arent understanding something about His character. Either not trusting He is good or not trusting His power to cleanse. Its sad that its believed that its the one thing He cant bring into alignment with Him.
OK, I love these videos!! But now I’m confused about some churches position regarding biblical sexuality. In the old Testament, I am not a Christian, I was just raised as one, many of the founding members, and I speak of Abraham, had multiple wives. When you get to the New Testament, as far as I can remember, there’s no talk of multiple wives. So fast-forward to 2024. Some Christian denominations are all in an uproar about homosexuality and they go back to the Bible and talk about biblical sexuality. I guess I’m confused because in my mind multiple Wives,= Promiscuity and is just as bad as same-sex attraction. Or maybe because the multiple wives were all female they’re letting it go? Is there anywhere in the New Testament that talks about same-sex attraction as being something that is against God? Or is it only offensive to straight man?
As an outsider, I don't get why so many people are so angry over this. If you truly believe that homosexuality is against your beliefs, the only way that you'll be able to convince people of that sexuality to follow your beliefs is to accept that there are multiple viewpoints, and multiple interpretations and then allowing them to come to their own conclusion after hearing a fair presentation of both sides. By doing anything else, you drive that community (and anyone who supports them) away. You only hurt yourself by insisting on a non-inclusive interpretation.
Beliefs are not something you fake for others to find appealing. As an insider, I have to say that I find the debate silly considering that heteros ought not to be having all the sex they are having either...
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
God said that His ppl are to view sin the way He views it, and He hates it. Ofc you don't get it because you're an outsider, and you don't understand the effects that these kinds of sins have on society once it is normalized.
A very interesting presentation. He doesn't talk about the two denominations I am most familiar with, which are Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Church in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople. I think the Catholic Church is pretty much side B. I am guessing the Orthodox one also. I am not sure this is always helpful, but the way I have thought about this is that homosexuality for many is a problem with who God is for us, as Creator. My sexuality is one of the greatest sources of energy in my life, for good and for ill, and It brings joy, hope and purpose for me in many ways. As well as temptation, sin and despair at times. I would say that is true for most people. Yet we have a group of people who have been deprived, through no act of their own, from being able to ever see their sexual desire as almost anything but a dirty, poisoned burden. It is as if God has cursed them specifically. And it's not just the same-sex attraction, but often the other characteristics that come with it, like effeminacy in same-sex attracted men. As much as we want to stop bashing, bullying and teasing, particularly among children and the young, a young person who is that different is always going to make some of their peers feel uncomfortable and challenged. And these young people are going to be aware of that, further making them feel alienated and cursed. "My yoke is easy and my burden light" anyone? How does a loving God let this happen? Hence the God problem. The solution is never going to be "lets not talk about this and pretend it's not painful to those who experience it". I watched the staff confront this sort of thing in my Catholic school about 40 years ago. Their response included violence, rage, denial and ineffective coping, with some of the teachers watching the painful things that had been done to them by their peers years before happening to new victims in front of them. Among these were some who would later go to jail for sexual abuse. I don't have any easy answers. But we have to talk about it. Our ultimate relationship will always be with God. There's no marriage in heaven. But we get there through the glorious, beautiful, sacred, screwed up and broken humanity that Jesus, the second person of the Trinity took on and we need the humility to make that possible for everyone, especially those on the margins.
truth If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Catholics are not Side B, they are Side Y. The Catholic position (Side Y) can be summarized like this: 1) Homosexual tendencies are taught to be “gravely disordered.” 2) Gay men are banned from being admitted to seminaries/the priesthood. 3) Terms like “a Christian struggling with same-sex attraction” are allowable in certain contexts, provided that the primary identifier remains Christian/Catholic. 4) the mere temptation itself is not a personally culpable sin, but dwelling on or acting on the temptation is gravely sinful.
If the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches had historically precluded from the clergy men who were even tempted by homosexual desires, I wonder whether they would have survived to this day, given all people (I am Greek Orthodox) in these churches are obligated to give confession. I find some of the positions confusing. If there is a “side x” person out there who can help me understand: is it your position that there are certain temptations, which preclude formal church ministry, even if a person lives in repentance regarding those temptations? Is the issue the temptation, the self-association with the temptation, or both? If a person is tempted in that way but makes no public acknowledgment about that temptation, is that more acceptable than making the acknowledgment? I ask in good faith, as one who is genuinely curious. Thanks!
I think, historically, this was not even a question that was asked of men joining the priesthood but it kinda was always known that some men did indeed join the priesthood as a means to escape marriage and indulge in sodomy, within the priesthood and kept it quiet. It was understood that these men would not be scrutinized and in return, they stayed within the priesthood and made sure they didnt bring scandal to themselves and the wider Church.
If "clergy", whatever the nonsense that is, had these problems, then they shouldn't be there. I would never dare to even think of going into the ministry if my christian life was that messed up. Christians should stop loving their sin more than God; they should stop making Sin their lord and master, and stop making Jesus a beggar. I read no gospel in these comments. No wonder the world laughs and mocks.
The Catholic Church still bans admitting men with homosexual tendencies to seminaries. But I’m not sure what you are trying to say with your Confession comment. Violating the Seal of the Confessional is a serious crime. If a Confessor reveals with the Penitent said within the Confessional, they are automatically excommunicated.
@@carsonianthegreat4672 That’s interesting about seminary admissions. However, my point about confessions, I think, still stands. A priest may confess to a homosexual sin. The confessor may have the discretion to put him under obedience (penance). If it were entirely true that men with homosexual desires cannot serve as clergy, I would imagine confessors would obligate priests who confess as much to ask their bishops to be relieved of duty. I’m not Catholic, so I may be misunderstanding, but I know, as an Orthodox Christian, seeing men mysteriously step away from the priesthood is far rarer than what I imagine to be the statistical distribution of men with homosexual tendencies.
@@robertAGC requiring a penitent to reveal their sin to another as a condition of absolution is still a violation of the Seal of Confession and still results in automatic excommunication. In your scenario, the confessor who tried to obligate that would be excommunicated from the Church. Also, it should be noted that while gay men are not allowed to be admitted to seminary/ordained to the priesthood, if a man with homosexual temptations were to be ordained by mistake, or to develop homosexual desires later in life, they don’t stop being a priest. Their ordination was/is still a real ordination.
I think examining the Mormon position here would also be interesting. Their church has a long history of being side X but they are distinct from most other Christians in that marriage is a requirement for full salvation. This results in more pressure for and cases of openly same sex attracted Mormons to marry a member of the opposite sex. Sometimes their descriptions sound more like side b but with an emphasis on heterosexual marriage rather than celibacy.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
The Catholic position is actually closer to "Don't ask don't tell" while actual doctrine has only been modified to state that homosexuality isn't a violation of canon law.
No. Side Y would be much closer to what the preference of the Church seems to be. Meaning the desires themselves are not sinful but it is not wise to identify oneself by them.
Not quite. The Catholic Church is more “Side Y.” It prohibits letting gay men into seminaries/the priesthood. However, it permits the use of language like “a Christian with same-sex attraction” (in certain contexts) provided that the primary identity is Christian/Catholic, not SSA.
I lean in to the B or Y position (based on what it was explained to be below in the comments). I understand that there is testimonial and scientific evidence that people are indeed born with their sexual orientation, and LGBT orientations also have been found to be linked with conditions like Autism, ADHD, Bipolar, etc (in my personal long term research on the matter, and academic studies), and so I cannot say that being 'born' with something as part of you biologically/neurologically can be "sin" in itself that someone can be accused of or demanded to repent of, though the 'act' and attraction type it promotes is of course something sinful. Whilst I do not compare gay people with pedophiles, there is scientific research also showing people are born with an orientation to children, and yet everyone believes it to be wrong to act out those attractions on minors. And so in such a stead, I'd hold based on God's word, homosexual 'acts and relationships' to be sinful, and such urges for such are a result of the fall as far as humanity is concerned. But those born with the inner makeup and orientation toward the same sex, are no different from anyone else born with a specific condition. If a person is too afraid to come out to you, even though they are not committing any sinful act or living a homosexual lifestyle, or even if they have but are repentant/struggling, then something is wrong and the love of Christ isn't being expressed in the Congregation. We must differentiate the sin from the sinner, and be empathetic people to those with such inborn struggles.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
But pedophiles hurt children as they cannot consent. Neither can animals consent. Why should gay people deny themselves though? Why do you not compare homosexuality to heterosexuality ?
I feel that, for a long time, conservative Americans or Brits have used homophobia to keep Christian males in line and blackmail males with feminine tendencies with the following rhetorics: "You only have 2 choices: hide in a Church or get ostracized." It worked well before the 1960s (even though it also ruined the potential of those who consider art, literature, and other non-sport hobbies feminine), but sex liberation changed the rule of the game. When different religious groups want to modify their way of doing things, many secular organizations also learn to use sexuality to blackmail members and opponents.
Catholics have *always* had a way for being completely against the church's teachings, but supporting the church anyway, while not even realising their actions make no sense. 🤣
@@SRMkay Well, the magisterial teaching is as clear as it is definitive: sex is only for within marriage, and marriage consists only of exactly one unmarried man and exactly one unmarried woman. There's no room for Side A. The only question is about homosexual identity (that is, B or X). I believe the teaching favors B overall, but perhaps not exactly.
I'm not fond of using "alcoholic" or "drug addict" as an identifier either. I think that it labels the person and affects the way they think about themselves. That is why I have issues with Alcoholics Anonymous and their continued affirmation of one another as alcoholics.
Our common problem causes us to look for a common solution. It may not be for everyone, but identifying our problem helps at least some of us accept the solution: turning our lives over to God.
To me it’s like how we call each other sinners, I am a sinner, but redeemed in Christ, so it goes that one could say “I am an alcoholic, but I am not going to let that shackle me forever”
@@memeboi6017 I am convinced that maintaining the label indicates a lack of repentance and is a statement that the man is still in Adam. I Corinthians 6:9-10 indicates that those who are redeemed are no longer homosexuals. Do I think that every single person amongst the redeemed no longer has temptations in that area? No. But there is a fundamental change which has already occurred, and maintaining the label indicates that one is still in Adam and not in Christ.
The obsessive hate aimed at homosexuality destroys congregations and families as well as denominations. I know LGBTQ+ individuals and families that marry, raise children, and live Christ-like lives that have been attacked by and alienated from their churches and extended families. Children ask their parents "why do grandma and grandpa hate us?" I have been a member of my congregation for 32 years and we have always embraced love as the central tenet of our faith and welcome everyone into our circle. Many people have arrived to our doors deeply wounded by churches that endorsed anti-LGBT+ conversion "therapy", covered up sexual abuse scandals, and abused power in a variety of ways.
The American church right now is obsessed with criminalizing homosexuality at any cost. They are willing to support a convicted felon, adulteror, and rapist to become a dictator over the USA because they might get homosexuality criminalized. It's clear that to most Christians homosexuality is much more than a sin. It's the issue by which the Pharisaical American church judges everyone and society itself. It allows American Christians to be comfortable in their own, lesser sins because at least they aren't a [insert gay f slur here].
I find it interesting that the anti gay churches tend to get into a lot more scandals when it comes to covering up SA, CSA, and child abuse in general. Maybe because you understand the basic concept of "consenting adults". Maybe it's because you interpret "homosexuality" as "p3d0philia". Who knows, but whenever abuse does happen in affirming churches, I notice it's always dealt with swiftly by the proper authorities. I have nothing but respect for affirming churches.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I think neither of the extremes are good. If you're really a Christian, you cannot condone any homosexual behaviour. It is sinful and will not lead to heaven, period. If we start compromising this truth, we start denying scripture and lead other people and ourselves to damnation. On the other hand, we should never hate the sinner. We're all sinners, and homosexual sin is not worse than i.e. adultery in a heterosexual relationship. We should therefore approach people struggling with homosexual temptations in love and with the awareness that we ourselves are not better. The key points are: 1) Homosexual acts are sinful and against God's commands. 2) However, they are not worse than any other sin. 3) We all sin and fall short from the glory of God. 4) Everybody, no matter if homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual etc. needs repentance and forgiveness for their sin. 5) Love the sinner, hate the sin.
I'm a Christian, and I'm also gay. I encourage you not to entertain the left when they add "Q+." It covers up a multitude of nastiness including the legitimization of s. crimes, which only adds to the right's view that we're all equally condemned.
Genuine question for Side X people, do you think that people with same-sex attraction without acting on it will go to hell if they don't lose that attraction?
No. It is a weakness product of original sin, It is , as The Catholic Cathecism teaches "intrinsically disordered" because is an atraction towards Something sinful and is not God's will. But if You don't act on You are faithful to Christ.
Temptation is supposed to be dealt with so that Jesus shuts the door on it permanently. The purpose of temptation is to exercise Faith and overcome it. When that fails to happen, something is wrong.
No, I dont. Every Christian has their cross to bear. Jesus said when we believe on Him, we become a new creation. We are also told to turn from sin, and sin no more. When SSA (or any sin) rears its head in a believer, they need to cry out to Christ for forgiveness and strength to endure to the end.
@@jamesparsonTrue but also the "thousands of denominations" thing is a myth. I know Catholics love to say that but that particular logging of them was a geographically-oriented thing(I think it was for mission work) and so counted each denomination in a country as separate from its ideological kin elsewhere. So a Baptist here in the US would be different from separate denominations like, say, the Eastern Orthodox Church but also from other Baptists in Canada or the UK or Ukraine. So as a result, it vastly overestimated the low-church denominations that don't have a centralized polity like the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
When Martin Luther nailed his theses to that door, and Baptists maintained that Christians needed no intermediary between them and God, then Protestants have schismed and schismed over and over-over doctrine and racism, over politics and patriarchy. Why should any LGBTQ+ person even consider communing with a church that denigrates them? There are plenty of faiths that welcome them, who can find no hatred in what Christ said in the Gospels. That’s the Protestant way-be your own interpreter of Christianity and commune with people you can agree with.
Sinners should just find churches that accept their sins. I'm looking for one that affirms my desire to have sex with women I'm not married to. Know any?
The Salvation Army (my denomination) is officially what you would label Side B, as the only reason we don't have full inclusion is the definition of marriage, although we condem barbaric practices such as "conversion therapy". Many people in the Salvation Army have more "Side A" beliefs, however if the Salvation Army officially made a statement in support of same-sex marriage then this would cause issues for Salvationists in countries with severe punishment for homosexuality. Hopefully we can become a loving and affirming church, the view of the younger generation in the Army in the UK tends to be very accepting, so hopefully as the youth become leadership we can make the change to love and acceptance
Unfortunately, it may well be on your doorstep (as it is mine as a Catholic). An Orthodox bishop in Africa, I think one that is in full communion with the other patriarchs, "ordained" a deaconess earlier this year. The political turmoil is creeping everywhere. Also, please don't take that mention as a criticism. My own Catholic bishop just doubled down on an article that spoke of a laywoman who thinks she's a man participating in a lay monastery, referring to this woman as a man, and I'm sure you're well aware of the drama surrounding Fiducia Supplicans. I fervently pray for unity among our Churches and that we may both stand for the truth of Christ. As much as I sometimes feel that we were vindicated by all these internal schisms, I also feel no joy over them. I hate to see Christianity fall apart in the West like this.
@@jonahstephens2904 I would be surprised if no one in our churches attempted an obvious heresy in the name of their new god Inclusion. Their new religions has many adherents and breaking the first of 10 commandments is surprisingly easy, even for professing Christians. We are all blind and confused on many things. Thankfully we have Church and tradition to save us from obvious political influence and their new religion. I think both of our churches will fare this storm better then protestants. I am not aware of the person you mention, but I can't image it will be the last. This new god will make many new converts, before it is exposed as another demonic ploy.
For me, if two gay guys don't want to have sex with each other, or make a pretense of doing so, but do wish to have a richly, emotionally deep and vulnerable life together, I don't see the problem with that. Of course, in the Catholic Church, we have monasteries where they do that already. Are all monastics orgiastic according to Protestants?
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I feel like the Catholic Church is side B, where the sin isn't in having an attraction but in acting on it. Just like how I may feel attracted to multiple women, however it is only sinful if I sexually engage with multiple women.
It is at most side B. I wonder if Fiducia Supplicans was objected to mostly by people on side X. If so, perhaps I do understand why it seems like a seismic shift. The Catechism does not speak of homosexual desires, as such, as being desired nor sinful (cf. CCC 2358).
If we are going to play this game, then the Catholic Church is Side Y not B. The Catholic Church absolutely rejects the "gay" identity, because the only identity that matters is being a child of God, which is in direct contradiction to the "gay" identity. Side A: Gay sex is not a sin. Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not. Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not. Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
@@alisterrebelo9013 I am not well versed with the letters of sides, it seems like it's building it's own alphabet. Kind of fitting for this issue lol. In that description I think I would agree.
No because the cathecism teaches that homosexuality tendencies are "intrinsically disordered" and because Catholicism teaches that is possible to reach complete Holiness in This life.
@@HolyKhaaaaanFiducia Supplicans was not a “seismic shift.” The Pope later clarified that there was no change in doctrine, and that the attraction is still intrinsically disordered and that the union cannot be blessed.
The mere fact that someone would identify as a gay Christian instead of just a Christian shows his identity is based on his sexual preference. Someone who’s entire existence revolves around their sexuality is someone who’s practicing it with enthusiasm hence a sinner.
Nah, it’s not that easy… it can be because they have experienced a lot of bad treatment and self hate because of the same sex attractions, there can be a lot more than what you think… myself is a bisexual Christian. Jesus is for everyone, and yeah marriage is between a man and a women, but the gospel is for all people.
This analysis and report of what is happening in the churches is very helpful. Thanks so much! By the way, I am Side X all the way. May God purify his church and teach us to love all people but without compromise.
truth If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@@crosisofborg5524 So you discount the old testament, without which the is no original sin, no ten commandments and no need for the sacrifice of Jesus, but at least you get to keep the slavery.
My denomination on average, is between Side A and Side B from my experience. I'm of the ELCA for reference. I don't have a strong view toward either direction myself but I lie somewhere between Side A and Side B. The ELCA doesn't affirm or oppose same sex relations so it's an issue that depends on the congregation and individual discernment. At the end of the day, what matters most is that we are saved by Grace alone and faith alone. God is who matters. the Bible is what matters.
Any comments about the Methodist Collegiate Church? I joined a church belonging to this group. They define marriage to be between a man and a woman, but are more accepting of LGBTQ.
I do think you can be gay (albeit celibate) and a Christian. It just doesn't seem helpful to identify as a "gay Christian", since it implies that there is a difference between gay and straight Christianity. Whatever defects of character we have should not be used as modifiers for our shared faith in Christ. And those defects DEFINITELY should not be celebrated with the language and symbolism of "pride" or a sense of solidarity with those who openly practice LGBT lifestyles.
I don't think it should be regarded as an identity so much as an explanation. And by an explanation, I mean something that an adult male can honestly tell people when they walk up to him at a church service and say for the thousandth time, "Why don't you just find a nice girl and settle down?" (Same with an adult woman, obviously, but they often seem to be regarded as a lower priority for some reason.) The issue with Side X is that it may only exacerbate such social pressures for a celibate "gay" person, potentially leading to an unwise and ill-fated marriage that is harmful to everyone involved.
Your identity is the collection of all things that you hold to be true about yourself. I am a man; I am diabetic; I am a website designer; I am a Midwesterner; I am engaged; I am a Unitarian Universalist. Because I hold these things to be true about myself, I "identify" as those things. Holding an aspect of my identity does not invalidate another aspect of it. For example, me "identifying as diabetic" does not make me a bad "website designer". This seems obvious. Labels are often combined when the context calls for it. For example, a Bible Study might be formed for Single Christian Men in order to discuss issues that primarily affect Christian Men when they're trying to date or navigate relationships. A person who resonates with this group is "identifying" as Single, as a Christian, and as a Man. This does not mean he is making being a Man into an idol or making being Single into an idol and it would be RIDICULOUS to tell him to stop identifying as a man or as single because HIS IDENTITY IS IN CHRIST! In discussions about LGBTQ+ issues in the church, the context immediately begs where people who are LGBTQ+ and are Christians fit in the Church and what they are allowed to do. A Christian who is same-sex attracted is a "gay Christian" regardless of whether they "act on it". And combining labels like these in a discussion is a common convention of the English language that we do all the time without thinking about it (like addressing "Single Men"). Them referring to themselves as a "gay Christian" is in no way tarnishing their identity as a "Christian".
There’s a bit of confusion between “Side B” and what is called “Side Y.” The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual attraction is “intrinsically disordered.” However, it also says that the mere temptation is not a personally culpable sin, so long as one does not dwell or act on it. The Church also bans gay men from entering the seminary. However, it does permit the use of terms like “a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction” in certain circumstances, provided that the primary identifier is Christian and not “same-sex attracted.” That’s why believing Catholic theologians prefer the term “Side Y” over “Side B.”
Trouble is that even if you don't know, God does. So either it's fine with God and should be with us as well (Side A) or it's not, and we need to tell people that (Side B/X).
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules! If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Based on what I've seen other people say. I haven't investigated Side B and Y personally. Side A: Gay sex is not a sin. Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not. Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not. Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
@@alisterrebelo9013 It's the most logical position too. Immoral thoughts entering your head are not sin, fostering them is. You cannot stop a bird from flying overhead, but you can stop it from nesting on your roof
This is a huge problem for a denomination that claims God predestined everything that happens. If God predestined men who go with men and women who go with women what about men or women who go with sheep?
I tried the Side B thing as a gay man. Never told anyone I was gay for the many years I was a member of that church, never slept with anyone or did anything with another man. That all ended one day when I explained to one woman that had been pushing real hard for me to date her daughter why I wasn't interested. I was shunned by my fellow congregants and released from my position doing free A.V. support and janitorial work for the church. Side B is just Side X that's too coward to admit it in the face of public opinion. I go to a church in the ELCA (Lutheran) denomination now instead.
I’m so sad to hear that. I’m sorry that happened to you.
R u now packing fudge
Come on dude. Stop being a victim and making excuses for your sin. Your eternal soul is at stake.
As long as you don't practice sin your ok! Everyone has thoughts that are sinful!
@@mikelp72We sin daily brother. Eternal salvation is not earned through becoming sinless. It is a received as a free gift
What I don’t get is how someone who experiences sexual attraction to unmarried women (a sinful attraction which would be a serious sin if acted on) but remains celibate is any different from someone else who experiences sexual attraction to men (a sinful attraction which would be a serious sin if acted on) but remains celibate.
If you’re going to ban celibate men who experience gay attraction from being priests, it seems to me that you must also ban unmarried men, or married men that experience sexual attraction to anyone but their respective wives. Which is a completely silly position to hold, completely incompatible with years of Christian history.
Well said. The difference between and application of works-based and desires-based views of sin has always been confusing and inconsistent, and as a result, many people seem to just apply whichever they want to whatever position they feel like.
The conflict is even more stark when you consider that for the denominations who mandate clergy celibacy, their entire clergy is suppressing their (presumably) heterosexual desires, yet they think this is not only fine, but welcomed; whereas clergy who are suppressing their homosexual desires are…not?
💯
As usual, helpful and comprehensive. Thanks for the clarity. You have a wonderful ministry.
Thank you, John.
Topic idea: Views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Love your work!
Honestly, I'd like to see where they lie on this issue
His channel is more about presenting information, not a commentary of his own views. Unless you mean presenting facts of views of certain church denominations on the I-P conflict. In that case I'd wager it's difficult to find that kind of information.
@@ninjason57Consider that different denominations have different views on Israel’s role in end times. Depending on a denomination’s eschatology they may be very interested in this conflict (as it plays in to various end-times scenarios) or they may consider Israel as just another nation and not of any real Biblical interest or note for the New Testament Church. So you’re correct that it’s outside this channel’s scope to talk about the current conflict with Israel and Iran, talking about the various denominations eschatology may touch on it, and is in scope.
@@ninjason57
I have once seen Useful Charts reply to a comment on one of his videos and say that he is "definitely not a Zionist", I imagine his thoughts on the Hamas conflict are complicated though.
I’m gay and a Christian. I go to a side B church but tired of hearing degrading and false rhetoric about the gay community.
The ability of this channel to explain controversial issues in such a parsimonious way is amazing.
Parsimonious? Really?
I was thinking the same. Not just parsimonious, but civil and balanced. This channel is a gem.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. Parsimonius = very unwilling to spend money or use resources (according to Google, I didn't know what that word meant until now).
@@octavianpopescu4776 Parsimonious also means restrained. I think that is what the OP is saying, and I think he is correct.
No, on a couple of videos even conservatives have gently challenged him on constantly throwing gays under the bus. He is not at all neutral on this issue, he's even spread misinformation about it. I get that you may prefer that he promote your agenda, but most people would prefer not to be lied to, wherever they stand on the issue. He's incredibly manipulative and underhanded about it.
As an outside viewer that just finds studying religion fascinating, I think a lot of this discussion shows that there is a distinct difference between "What a denomination teaches" and "What the people in the church believe and do." Sure, there will be people that align completely with the denomination, but in my experience and what I see in discussions like this is that that's far from unanimous. It shows that religions are more complicated than just "official teachings"
You could also see how Christianity got the diagnosis of human condition right. We are lovers of lies and darkness. We want to make reality bend to our desires. This got us kicked out of Eden. This also explains all the denominations. People would rather create a new one that fits their desires.
@@PetarStamenkovic I mean, you could say that about most religions really. Most religions have stuff to say about the human condition, and also have a variety of denominations and groups
the underlying problem being "what a denomination teaches". If your church / faith claims that everyone gets to interpret scripture however they like, they don't have a leg to stand on when the congregation falls into heresy.
@@sammysamlovescats It is true that division and confusion is not unique to Christianity, but Christianity gets it right on any topic. Take for example what human nature is. Many people, religions and worldviews insist that we, humans, are fundamentally good and that we like truth. Those religions and philosophies are dangerously wrong.
Truth unites, lies fracture. Truth is one, lies are innumerable. Only truth can save us.
Christianity gets it wrong a lot of times. It is only through the grace of God that we are not destroyed a few times already. Humanity are learning, but also making new mistakes. Don't cover up failures, but serve as witness so others can learn.
Wow man, this was an incredibly thorough, caring and helpful video on a complex and divisive topic. Great job!
This conflict may be divisive, but it is painfully simple. Homosexuality violates natural law, and thus it is immoral. End of story.
Hey R2H, what's it like being the realest dude in the game?
A. It's fine.
B. It's fine but with caveats.
C. It's not fine.
D. It's not fine but with caveats.
E. Just see the results.
@@mikewilliams6025Just see results
As someone who has had to live my entire life as celibate to honor God's command; When I was in my lowest point, and deepest struggle, I felt God say "Anything you include in your identity that is not 'My life is fully surrendered to Christ' is idolatry." Many days are still a struggle, and I often pray for strength to deal with the temptations and loneliness. But because my identity is in Christ alone and for Christ alone, I find strength to overcome my sinful brokenness.
God bless you. This should get pinned at the top. Your sacrifice will not be without reward!
I converted to Christianity from atheism by way of reading philosophy. I converted in private and chose a church to attend based on the simplicity of their name. I didn't understand the nuances of denominations and theology I only understood that Christ died for my sin and that every knee shall bow to Christ. The scriptures that convinced me were Matthew 5 and 1st Corinthians 1 (very important). Immediately afterward I was overwhelmed by every Christian I met and half the unbelieving world with the, in my view, strange question, what kind of Christian are you? In hindsight I recognized my state as a new believer naturally holding to Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Lutheran views of the Bible. This while simultaneously using a caricature of the different denominations to differentiate, judge and condemn different denominations. My point is that is I personally experience the political nature of Christendom and the desire to qualify myself before Christ. Or the contrast of: "my identity is in Christ alone and for Christ alone" My friend you are not alone. You and I are the same and we have been snatched from the condemning fire of our ego by Christ's strong and loving hand. Christ alone is also this former atheist's "mantra". When I was a new Christian I understood that given time I would also understand the nuances between denominations but I was forced to play politics and choose a side. Few ever asked me what school of philosophy I had previously adhered to. Only a few friends a Priest and my wife. The Elders and Pastors and Rabbis and Preachers didn't care, they wanted met to choose a side. So now it is the LGBTQ community's (which is hardly a community at all) turn. All of Christendom shouts in unison "choose a side, choose a side, choose our side or you're hell bound but quickly choose a side!"
The Joy of Celibacy.
@@finnkuudere3516 Christ can do anything he wants. he has free will.
@@finnkuudere3516 What was that philosophy?
Why do you believe the bible to be the standard of truth of the word of god?
Why make the decision to make this change in the face of insufficient evidence?
What do you think of the idea of someone praying to god asking the truth of such questions, and getting the answer that the bible is untrustworthy as it is not his inerrant word?
What possible suggestions do you have for someone who tries to repent of their sins, but instead of being able to be happy as promised, they are only miserable?
Any counter you have to this question I require some more backing up then just "they aren't trying to repent hard enough." Say something original.
Why do we need jesus' sacrifice in the first place?
I have several reasons to question this, and each one you will find to be next to impossible to counter without some apologetics that can just be torn down.
...and so on and so forth.
As an atheist who is interested in Christianity from an academic perspective, your videos are an excellent resource! Thank you for sharing such nuanced and informed insights into the denominations of your faith, and your devotion to delivering unbiased, plainly-presented information!
Would you be interested in a deeper look, by any chance?
@@sanshinobi3664 Are you proselytizing to me?
As a Christian, I find it interesting how many churches never preach about the sins of greed, laziness, pride, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony. Or
Yet stay silent on divorced members who remarry or live together outside of marriage.
Is homosexuality, abortion more of a sin because most of their members have not partaken of either of them???
Uh. Yeah, that's how it works. Kind of like how we think murder is worse than shoplifting because fewer of us have murdered.
...Did you also have a serious question, or are we done here?
@@SuppressedOfficialI would think common sense would make it clear that greed is objectively worse than homosexuality. Simply observe how it impacts the world around us.
Besides, I think confessing a sexual attraction to the same sex is little different than a pastor harbouring sexual attraction to married woman. Despite that, there is a clear bias against the former. It's not worse than heterosexual lust, it's just more unusual. It's very simple hypocrisy imo.
@@Copperkaiju You know, you could have whined about bias twenty years ago. In fact, people did. But today, we know what happens when you try to be "inclusive" of these people: they destroy your entire nation and start mutilating your children. Your argument no longer works. Thanks. Bye!
Good point.
@@Copperkaiju Congratulations on completely and utterly missing the point! Good job. Thanks for showing us why no one needs to listen to you.
Side X is the historical christianity position. Side A is the current cultural position reflected in the church. Side B is a compromise between them. Is it a healthy compromise or a slippery slope? I'll have to get back to you in 50 years for that one.
It is a slippery slope, and even Preston Sprinkle in his podcast they talk about how people on side B goes to side A when they experience "church hurt." Side B is as close to side A as you can get, especially ontologically speaking it's indistinguishable. It is a works based theology, "just don't do it." is their motto. Having lived in side b, it was depressing. Always seeing straight people and gay people having relationships, but none for you! Well, the truth sets you free. I'm side X. What was unfortunately NOT shared in this video is the reason side X is OPPOSITE of side A is not just because of the belief of the identity, behavior, but because the church doctrine of sanctification (such WERE some of you, 1 Cor 6:11) is the truth. I have experienced transformation in my desires, my same sex erotic attraction mortified, not by my will or works, but by Jesus. Side B says God doesn't do that!! Side X is freedom from homosexuality, restoration to heterosexuality, which is how God made EVERY person. Side B teaches God doesn't will to restore us. That sin remains until we die.
If you speak only of the aspects of a male having sex with a male, then perhaps there is a point about the historicity of Side X. But to claim that religious circles had considered one's natural orientation prior to the 19th century, when the word "homosexual" was coined, is an anachronism. My point is not to start an argument here but to call people to a more literal view of scripture where nothing is added, changed or removed.
To be Side X, you must deny the reality of what sexual orientation is and how it works.
A "gay Christian" is a "Christian who experiences same-sex attractions" and vice versa. Neither is sinful by any self-consistent theological framework. The "It's not a sin to be gay, just a sin to *act on it*" approach is the only "reasonable" anti-LGBTQ+ position for Christians.
Look at history. Bolsheviks don't like Christians, so they erode where they can't h-bomb. See timeline in US of removing prayer from school, removing 10 commandments from court houses... ffwd to baphomet in town square at Christmastime. Lgbq etc is a political construct used to destroy the fabric of Christian society. In the olden days we sat in church with our gay members... who, like all of us, lived day to day with whatever issue kept us in the margins. It's necessary to have a strong fabric to anchor, instead of fray, the margins
The church survived the crusades, it'll survive this
I am an EPC teaching elder (retired) and was not at the GA. I want to thank you for your attention to this ongoing issue in all of the Kingdom. I do not know what the future holds but I know who is in charge... Thanks again and I look forward to your other posts
It's actually quite sad to see the common western Christian throw away their faith over a topic like this.
Yeah it’s weird seeing splits over this. One would think splits would happen more on the absolute core fundamentals like Christology or church polity or eschatology, but nope for some reason Protestant churches in America divide themselves over something very material with an obvious answer.
@@saldol9862What is the obvious answer?
It's as if there's some sort of Agenda on the side of homosexuality proponents.
@@jdamsel8212The Bible condemns homosexuality several times in Leviticus, Roman’s, Corinthians, and possibly Timothy. There is little question.
@@saldol9862 We see the same happening with lay Catholics too. How many ordinary European Catholics support LGBT and other unChristian cultural norms? A lot, maybe even a majority. Even American Catholics like Joe Biden are pro-LGBT and pro-abortion.
Thanks for taking the time to help sort out the different views of American Christians on the vexed issue of homosexuality.
The Church cannot hope to escape controversies roiling the wider culture and society.
Charity in all things.
Your videos are great! They provide excellent information on the subject matter for further reflection. Keep 'em coming! Thanks for all your hard work and analysis!
If you want to actually read a comment from someone experienced in this space:
I have been in SSA/Side B land for years (I've been to Revoice and have met many of the individuals and organizations mentioned here). And I will say, I think this topic has become confusing and almost unnavigable semantically for Christians who have not studied or lived within this debate. Everyday christians aren't being offered these abstract terms like 'homosexualism' or 'homosexual self-conception' from the pews, and the 'Side ABXY' whatever language does nothing to bring clarity or goodwill to the conversation. I see many Christians just deciding that this topic does not warrant nuance (unlike many other theological topics which widely receive sympathy and where complex views are respected) perhaps because the terminology feels meaningless and too far removed from Scripture itself. But instead of listening to those who can actually speak to the queer x Christian intersection with meaningful Biblical interpretation that gets deeper than 'Side [Blank]' sort of language, many actively seek to just silence what they see as gay Christian 'slippery slope' BS by throwing a meaningless one-liner into the comment sections of content like this and giving themselves a pat on the back for their superior Scriptural interpretations. (Do I have to say - WWJD folks?)
But regardless of what these denominations are publishing from their many 'assemblies', those of us who are not finding ourselves within heterosexuality cannot just sit by and wait for our faith communities to decide what they will let us do. There's a reason that the Side B community has primarily existed online and not in actual church spaces so far. We need to know for ourselves what godly embodiment of all sexualities looks like now, not in 2026 EPC. These 'statements on human sexuality' feel more like houses built on sand than substantial takes on what the Bible says. They keep changing, so we haven't been able to rely on churches being safe spaces as a result no matter what 'side' we land on.
Thank you for your covering of this topic.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I know it may sound inflammatory, but I'm legitimately curious if you would be comfortable with an individual referring to themselves as a zoophile or ephebophile Christian?
Yes. That is inflammatory. Children cannot consent. And it's interesting; according to Leviticus, a zoophile is only perverted, but I'm an abomination. After 30 years of celibacy, I'm still gay.
No new creation.
God has already spoken in His Word as far as what He will let us do. The only appropriate use for sex is in a marriage between one man and one woman. Regardless of our desires or wishes, we must agree with God if we wish to be pleasing to Him. No matter how much I might feel attracted to someone else's spouse, or property, for that matter; I do not identify myself as a Lustful Christian. Just reject what God rejects. I speak as one who has made the choice to reject same-sex attraction as God has commanded in His Word.
A lot of dancing around “did God really say?” NOT TODAY SATAN!
Still waiting for that population analysis video about the Catholic Church...
This topic was very interesting, we rarely hear the actual theological distinctions of such denominations in their own words. I love all of these topics you do, keep em coming!
Thanks! I do want to do more videos on stats but I have to keep them spread out, some people don't enjoy them!
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@@ReadyToHarvest ❤️
As a Jewish person this debate is so interesting to me because it’s now hardly even controversial in Modern Orthodox circles whether it’s a problem for someone to identify as gay but be celibate - because our practice is tied to whether you observe the law or not rather than adherence to a particular creed or dogma. The main problem with such a practice is that it disables you from keeping the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, but some people say that being gay would put you in the category of someone unable to have children for other reasons. We had our own misadventures with conversion therapy but it’s so clear at this point that it doesn’t work that we have to find a way to adapt
Other comments are saying that this is a simple issue but for me it really underlines the theological differences between Judaism and Christianity which is interesting.
It does work when done correctly
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
choices
@@javiervega1065It is never done correctly then. In other words, it doesn't work.
@@javiervega1065it does not work
@@jacknickelson8096 yes it does you haven't even tried it
And here I thought SSA meant Social Security Administration.
🤣
Thats a good one.... when I hear SSA I think of social security first!
Continue using it.
"Same-sex attracted" exists in order to provide a sterilized, more clinical-sounding term that paints sexual orientation as an affliction or a struggle.
If someone abbreviated it to just SSA, I'll occasionally pretend I don't know what their acronym is supposed to mean.
Very well researched. I know the late Rev. Keller came up in this a lot, he was one of the authors of the PCA’s position paper on sexuality that came out in 2020.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
How about instead of trying to identify as a gay Christian, you just identify as Christian and affirm the Bible's teaching on marriage? Our identity is in Christ, not our sexuality. The modern world is obsessed with sexuality because it is a worship of the self.
No one is identifying as an alcoholic Christian or adulterous Christians because our sins don't define us anymore.
If our identity is in Christ, then how can women be Christians? They are identifying as a man, which makes them trans, which is wrong per conservative Christianity. Ergo, women can’t be Christians.
Amen to this, the world is trying to make sexuality our identity. If we are truly born again, we have died. Our new life is in Christ.
Because most churches defy the Bible's teaching on marriage.
Bingo!
YES, no identifies as a Cat Burglar Night Thief Christian, or (someone who sleeps with prostitutes once a week on a regular basis being a prostitutes customer) a John Christian.
The way you just give facts and the info with out much or any bias Definitely this day and age Plain simply amazing
Well you keep doing it. The amount and quality level of information you share is first rate! Thank you.
Could you go over the SBC and the Nicene Creed? There was a recent huff-n-puff about it at the conference.
A huff and puff that would've blown their house down if they had accepted the Nicene Creed, this little line being the explosive bit, "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness/remission of sins".
@alisterrebelo9013 You should check out Gavin Ortlund's recent video discussing this. He provides a good case for why this line from the Nicene Creed isn't a problematic statement for the SBC to affirm. It is, after all, a direct quote (or nearly so) from Scripture.
@@24psmithOrtlund did violence to the Creed in his “explanation.” He twisted the Nicene Creek’s verbiage to mean something that the Council Fathers did not accept.
The Catholic Church is “Side Y.”
Side Y can be summarized like this:
1) homosexual attraction (as the the Catechism teaches) is “intrinsically disordered”
2) the mere experience of temptation is not itself a personally culpable sin. Acting/dwelling in the temptation is sinful
3) gay men are banned from entering the seminary/priesthood
4) the use of terms like “a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction” can be allowed in certain contexts, so long as the primary identifier remains Christian and not the attraction. Terms like “gay Christian” are typically discouraged/seen as needlessly confusing/imprudent
As a protestant I gotta agree with the Catholics on this one. You can't be a gay Christian, but you can be a Christian despite having gay feelings.
That is the Catholic Church's position, but that's not a Side Y position, it's a Side B position. Side Y tries to straddle between Sides A and B, and claims both have incorrect points.
Side Y is "Y would you have sex at all ever?"
If you hold the position that you cannot consider yourself a "gay Christian" you are not Side B.
Churches like that prefer terms like "same-sex attracted" which are sterilized, more "clinical" sounding terms in order to shed the positive connotation of words like "gay".
You are "gay" if you are attracted to the same sex, regardless of whether you choose to act on those attractions or have sex at all.
Side Y is also against the term "SSA Christian." Side Y views ssa as a part of original sin and therefore a sin.
Really interested in the implied 21 positions between Side B and Side X...
Side M here 🙋♂️
Thank you so much for all the investigative work you have put into this!
Personally, all of the hair-splitting among denominations strikes me as so much "sowing tares among the wheat." For those that don't know, tares are a type of grass that look SO MUCH like wheat - almost identical, in fact, and can definitely pass at first glance - until the harvesttime. Only wheat bear a unique kernel, though, and the weight of these kernels causes their heads to bow when they're matured and ready to be harvested. The tare heads, with their lighter seeds, simply remain unbowed, so it's easy to tell them apart then. More than one metaphorical meaning can be extracted here. Because sexual sin is clearly and unambiguously delineated in all its permutations in the Bible, it is really a matter of humble obedience. The subject can be made endlessly complex, and the reasons for doing so may have the appearance of empathy and compassion, but are really only muddying the glass. It's simple enough. God ordains but ONE type of sex (Married - between 2 people -and Heterosexual) and strongly repudiates all other kinds. As a straight woman in this century who wasn't submitted to and Saved by God until early middle age, I experienced years of fornication and even adultery before reading the holy verses that convicted me. I also experienced the natural consequences of great unhappiness and empty unfulfillment for those sins. God is right in His reasons for warning us in His Word to NOT commit unsanctified sex. I don't have to have had ALL the different types of forbidden sex to know that ANY and ALL are prohibited for good reasons. And just as we trust and obey about any and all of his stated prohibitions of every kind, in this area, submission is the only viable response.
The lusts of the flesh which may seem "so all important!' today will not trouble anyone in Eternity, where souls are truly Free. Jesus is Coming - let's be ready for Him. Everything else pales in comparison.
It seems to me that Church of the Nazarene calling themselves side B was absolutely not mandated by their doctrinal statements. Someone inside the denomination is trying to tip the scales on that one.
Extremely helpful and informative. Thank you.
i love learning about religion, but i actually think my favorite part of this channel is seeing everyone in the comments asserting their own conflicting religious opinions as the most obvious truth. fascinating
It's like watching Star Trek fans argue over canon, only with more threats.
Every topic is like this, especially politics. Religion at least has the excuse that it is the most important thing in life because it deals with ultimate truth.
@@VirginMostPowerfull i think that's exactly what makes religious topics so interesting to me. i don't believe in any gods or supernatural things, so i observe religion through a sociological / psychological lens. it's interesting to see how many "ultimate truths" there are to different people
I get it. As an Eastern Orthodox, I don't have any strong views on homosexuality and transgenderism in other faiths (they can do whatever they like as far as I'm concerned), but it is interesting to see how passionate people in the US are about this niche topic.
@@octavianpopescu4776 i think people generally tend to feel more passionate about the topics that personally effect them, and less about the topics that don't personally effect them
Great video as always, though the AI art bg was rather distracting
I am side B, calling myself a gay Christian. This offends many people and they seem to not care that I have been celibate 20 years. Part of coming to the Lord was admitting what I am, and that many of my behaviors was not grieving for my best friend who committed suicide a long time ago. I still get called the 'F' word, also sodomite and abomination (also apostate, a JW thing). I no longer care what a mere man calls me. I only care what the Living God thinks of me.
It was brave of you to admit that. I can appreciate how much of a challenge it must be to me a faithful Christian and living a pure life with such orientation being part of your makeup. My prayers for you, and God's blessings
I really relate to what you’re saying as a bisexual Christian! People really don’t understand why someone could call themselves a queer and also a Christian, God bless you!
You are really a Side Y Christian because at the core it seems that you acknowledge that your identity is a "child of God" trumps all other identities, as seen by your commitment to celibacy for 20 years.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
You must try conversion therapy
truth be known If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Now I'm curious what Side Y is
It agrees with Side X that same-sex identification is wholly unacceptable, but it agrees with Side B that conversion therapy is ineffective.
@@MAMoreno Thanks
Side Y lies between Side B and Side X.
Basically, the spectrum of "sides" looks like this:
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
Side Y is likely the more correct view theologically...what I'd like to know is what denominations actually fall into the category of Side Y.
@@reeferfranklin None. If you think Y is the correct view, you are outside of all theological movements be it conservative or liberal. Its good to know where one stands, even if alone.
this is very informative. thank you!
I think side B is pretty accurate. The only thing I would abstain from is using terms like "gay Christian" or "queer Christian". Not really because of the identification problem because it can also be just a neutral description, but because of it's cultural context. These terms are often used by people who claim to be Christian while living a homosexual lifestyle and denying the sinfulness of this. I personally never refer to myself as "gay Christian" or "gay" in general to avoid any misconceptions. But if someone is more comfortable with that, I don't think it's sinful to use it.
I think there is a hard line when it comes to homosexual acts. I think when you're at a point where you don't see anything wrong with living an openly homosexual lifestyle, you're doctrine is no longer Christian because it is directly attacking the foundations of Christianity. The terminology and how to best refer to oneself is a question of personal preference and debatable, the sinfulness of homosexual acts is not.
Yeah, same here. I know some Christians who were gay that have been made straight (not through some program, but through their own faith experience). So that is real. But other believers have scrambled sexual attractions that don't go away, and they're still able to live faithfully.
I agree that the term "gay Christian" is not something I would use. In the cultural context "I'm gay" usually means rejecting a lot of scripture and sexual morality, as something we are holding against God. But even "straight" includes adultery and pron and casual sex. So we're not aiming to be merely gay or straight, but Biblical.
If you’re going to allow homosexuality, why won’t you allow other types of sexuality, such as polygamy?
Let's just stick to queer and straight; keep it simple and real.
Guarantee that Mormons will be the last ones to accept Polygamy again
@@kingpetra6886Polygamy has historically been far more widespread and accepted practice. It also has much more biblical support.
Gays are born gay!
Being gay is not - is not - a choice!!!
Yes, indiscriminate sexuality is a choice,
but choosing a male partner and not a woman for a gay person is not a choice!
After 88 years of life, I can say this.
Polygamy is a choice pure and simple!
These are not really comparable!
@@leoinsf
You might get it right if you live another 88 years, otherwise you'll get it right at the Gate much sooner.
Why can’t mainstream news reports be as unbiased as this guy?
The Fairness Doctrine has been gone for decades now…
In the Catholic Church I think we've always been somewhere between Side X and Side B. We've always taught that homosexual activity is sinful, even mortally sinful. (As in, you will go to Hell for it, even if you're otherwise a faithful Christian.) We've also always taught that transgender identity is inherently unintelligible, with Pope Francis calling it the second worst thing in the Western world after abortion.
But we've also never taught that homosexual attraction is inherently sinful, and the Church admits that there may be biological reasons behind it. The Church even now allows for blessings of same-sex couples who wish to break free of their sinful relationships. Thus, experiencing same-sex attraction is not a sin in and of itself - but it is a temptation that may cause someone to sin by having unchaste thoughts, masturbating, or engaging in homosexual activity. The Church even used to allow homosexual-attracted priests, as long as they affirmed Church teaching that homosexual activity is sinful. But on that issue we've actually moved from Side B to Side X, as we no longer allow for any homosexual priests through seminary. I'm not exactly sure why they changed that rule; it might have had something to do with the sexual abuse crisis.
These comments show homophobia is alive and well. It's this issue that may convince me Christianity is a farce. No, I'm not interested in your "but condemning gay is loving actually" rants. Lots of you out here mocking a pain you have not endured
Cry me a river, and then stay away from our children, you sicko. Boo hoo, muh oppression! You're not oppressed, oppressed people don't have the freedom to cry 24/7 about something
yeah its definitely one of the things that pushed me out of the church, after a long time of wanting to stay and hoping maybe there was a space for me, i just could not tolerate being in a space where the « correct » belief required being cruel to others who were not hurting anyone
The real issue is about leaders sexually abusing their subordinates. Whether priests, ministers, teachers, or any other authority, leaders should not indulge their sexual desires upon a person in their charge.
Certainly that's a big issue, though secular institutions are full of sexual abuse while only criticising others. Statistics suggest that opposing homosexuality helps in combating sexual abuse, but much more is also needed.
That’s unrelated. The majority of those instances are against the opposite gender.
@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts That’s not true. I just found multiple studies from government agencies that say the percentage of abusers that are homosexual is 0% to 3.1%. These limits are within current estimates of the prevalence of homosexuality in the general community.
The don't care about that.
@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts do you have a source for these statistics you're referencing?
So...I'm of the opinion that Side Y is likely the most theologically cirrect position...what I'm unaware of is which denominations actually fall into the category of Side Y?
Here's an excellent video on that, a discussion between an eastern orthodox priest and a doctor who is now an episocpal priest from a decade ago. Both seem to take the "Side Y" stance, which also seems to be that of the Holy Fathers of the early church from what I've read and seen. ruclips.net/video/PCdU_0UA78o/видео.html
Catholics would fall into Side Y. Based on what I've seen other people say. I haven't investigated Side B and Y personally.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
The Catholic Church is usually considered “Side Y”
Thank you for telling me about the audit.
When we have to reason amongst ourselves to find out what God means and use democratic practices to decide what God means, then God is not part of the conversation. That process itself is the removal from God, not the subject matter being discussed.
The essence and foundation about God is the communication with Him.
2 Timothy 4:3 (CSB)
"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear"
I like how Protestants spring into action against Catholics with "justification through faith alone," but then when it comes to sexuality, suddenly the theology becomes works-based.
Justification by faith alonene does not mean sin doesnt exist
@@BotPlays2222 James 2:14-26
Sola Scriptura is Denied by Protestants who Ignore the clear abomination of sinful apostacy.
@@BotPlays2222 And sin is not meant to be fetishized into something to enforce social hierarchies.
@@sufiameen6093 it's funny when you ask a non-Catholic Christian to show you in the Bible where sola scriptura can be found they never have and answer because it's not in there. What came before the Bible was TRADITION which they deny.
Here in Canada the Anglican Church is like the episcopal church in the USA.
Not the EACA
@@javiervega1065the original Episcopal church. Not break always.
I am so grateful I came across this channel. God the almighty is amazing!
This was so helpful! Thanks!! ❤
It’s interesting watching the debate
That were quite interesting cases how denominations deal with LGBTQ issues that aren’t affirming. The official position of the Catholic Church is probably best described by side-B since conversion therapy is rejected and the church acknowledges that there are people with same sex attractions btw. I would say the topic of how to minister to LGBTQ people is very important. You can find a lot of homophobic comments on the internet (also below this video) that aren’t in any way charitable towards gay Christians and just view their existence as a bogeyman towards „biblical“ Christianity. That this hate leads to self-doubt and hurting among LGBTQ Christians is self-evident. So it’s really important to have ministries that walk with LGBTQ Christians in love and be on their eye level and not from above - and I don’t see how side x can archive that in any way
No matter how you cut it, expecting gay people to stay celibate for life for no reason other than ‘the bible said so’ is itself what is hurting and keeping lgbt ppl away from your Churches. Why don’t you go ask straight people to do that and let me know how they react! Your own Pope refers to gay people using slurs. Religion is a human made invention used to oppress others, nothing more, nothing less.
Catholic Church is side Y if anything
@@fujikokun well one very prominent side b Christian that‘s also Catholic is Eve Tushnet. I would interpret the statements from the current Vatican magisterium in context with the Catholic teachings on sex and marriage as a side b approach, there are enough Catholic lgbt organizations and I think the Catholic church doesn’t prohibit the use of the word „gay Christian“, is against the criminalization of homosexual activities and conversion therapy.
@@simonkraemer3725 You can find black people that are pro slavery. 99% of gay people do not accept your bigoted ideology that threatens them with eternity in hell for daring to love a person of the same sex. And 99% of straight Christians wouldn’t accept lifelong celibacy either.
@@RationalistMH I mean, doesn't the Catholic church ask all of its priests, bishops, friars, monks, and nuns to do that? It also teaches its married couples to avoid contraceptive methods (beyond keeping up with the menstrual cycle to determine when the wife is less likely to be fertile), thereby limiting their sexual behavior to a far larger degree than most Protestants do. So yeah, I think it's absolutely consistent with the general Vatican policies on sex.
1st! Last time I was this early, the position on homosexuality was clear
It is clear. Lost modern society is pushing this issue.
It still is.
Come back a year from now and it will be the same.
Yes it is 100% crystal clear::
(New International Version)
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Romans 1:26-28
=======
1 Corinthians 7:2
Mark 10:6-9
Jude 1:7
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Thanks for this explainer!!
As a bisexual Christian I’m side B all the way, and it’s a complex issue. People often wonder why we need to emphasize that we are not straight, but the thing is that all the trauma, difficulties and self hate we would have to go through dealing with the opinions and thoughts of others inn the Christian community, it’s really a lot. So it’s not that weird LGBTQ Christian’s are leaving churches as they have been treated poorly and often been misunderstood…we have to understand that we all are sinners and we all are on the same line in front of God, that’s what the gospel is all about! We all need grace and forgiveness from God, gays aren’t more sinful just because they have different temptation than straights. So I have no problem using bisexual Christian as a description because I would like to signal to others that no matter what you struggle with or deal with you can have a relationship with Jesus and be saved, and also create a loving and caring community for all people who have faith inn Jesus Christ!
Your belief fundamentally undermines the doctrine of sanctification. If you really believe that God condemns any same-sex relationship you may want to have, why does He not help you overcome your desires? And why are the desires themselves somehow okay? Is it okay to “look but don’t touch?”
And don’t misunderstand me - I’m not condemning you for your bisexuality. I personally am a gay man. But the issue is, if you really believe Jesus when He condemns hatred and lust along with murder and adultery, then to remain logically consistent you have to either reject that same-sex relationships are sinful, or you would have to “mortify your desires” by becoming heterosexual/asexual. Which I’m sure you know is impossible.
Please, reconsider what you believe about this issue. God is good and does not let His people anguish in sinful desires with no sign of sanctification. Your Heavenly Father loves you and wants what’s best for you. If He does not help you to overcome your desires to be in a gay relationship, it’s because there was nothing that needed to be overcome in the first place.
@@tylerjornov I’m not even SSA and what you said was very edifying for me… I struggle with p*** and other temptations to adultery with women. What you said is very true. And God lets us suffer unto sanctification.
We are all sinners and all need to sincerely repent. The issue is that some dont believe homosexual acts need repentance. The people who struggle with same sex attraction, but repent when they trip up are to be lauded for their commitment to holiness in a society that celebrates such sin.
@@tylerjornov Amen, this is a beautiful comment that sums up at least some of the conflicts I have as a gender diverse individual. God bless you.
@@tylerjornovso what ur saying is side A is correct since ‘conversion’ is so rare?
I’m a Side B Christian… trying to crucify the flesh daily. I appreciate this balanced and respectful explanation of the controversy. Keeping in mind that this church “controversy” boils down to individual humans and hearts, all wrestling and striving
I wish you well.
A lot of Side B Christians struggle to find congregations that are not Side B on paper but Side Y or X in practice.
I think a great example of that is churches that claim to be Side B, but won't ordain "same-sex attracted" clergy. If the sexual orientation "temptation" is not sinful, and only "the act" is, then a celibate gay preacher is doing everything asked of them.
I've heard too many stories of gay Side B Christians who do everything their church expects of them and follow all the rules and are still assumed to be sinning because they think of themselves as "gay".
If I may ask-how do you reconcile your acknowledgement that God created you as homosexual with the belief that he commands you not to be?
In other words, what’s preventing you from going to side A?
Its The first minute and I've already got many questions:
Why is side A, the first letter of the alphabet given to the affirming side, which is a later development?
Why is side A compared to side X? I'd have understood side V and side X or side A and B, but not A and X.
A probably stands for affirming
X is a universal symbol to stop things
B is in between
Y is close to X, but not quite
Seems to make sense.
In the Greek alphabet (original written language of the NT) the “X” was the 1st letter of the word (representing) “Christ.”
In (very)early church history, the “X” was used in reference to Christ (or cross).
A possible (logical) theory would be that “side X,” would represent that of what consisted in the (original) 1st century(1st several centuries) of the Christian “church.”
The Gospel/Christ hasn’t changed, man has…
@@chasityrhodus7299 thank God we have! Imagine living in a world like they did without technology, medicine, the internet, cars, planes, running water, air conditioning. Sometimes I wonder if Jesus could have imagined all these things and why he still chose to speak to the population he did when 2000 years later the internet and Google translate would have greatly expedited his mission.
@@CountJeffulalol
All this messing around with "personal identity" seems very weird to me, even outside the context of sexual ethics. If you're humble, then ideas about self-identification and self-expression should barely ever even cross your mind
There is one identity that does matter and is important if Christians are to be united, the identity that we are "Children of God".
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@readytoharvest i've seen some great videos recently on obscure Christian churches. I think you are a maestro with your content creation. It be amazing if you did some videos on those churches as well. Especially the Christian Community (Anthroposophy), Liberal Catholic Church, and the neo-Gnostic churches today (Ecclesia Gnostica, Eglise Gnostique Apostolique). They are fascinating heterodox churches that would be be great informational video material.
As a Catholic, I find this conversation to be insane. The Bible is pretty clear about homosexuality and the ordination of women. If your church allows for one or both of these things, you should probably try reading your Bible.
yes why be a good person when you can believe your bible?
@@fakename-r7q Tolerating, or even worse promoting, sin is the most hateful thing a person can do. You are potentially dooming that person to an eternity of suffering because you are too afraid to speak the truth to them
To be clear, we should never be bigoted. Sexual sin is the same whether it's homosexuality or a man cheating on his wife. Both are sinful and equally so. We shouldn't be more aggressive against one of these sins or the other just because one is more "mainstream". They are both sins and the role of the church should always be to lead people away from their sinful desires. That said, we shouldn't enshrine sins in our churches or in our lives to protect the feelings of others. The teachings of Christ have always been transgressive and we should never water it down to make it more palatable to the masses, just as St. Paul advises against in his letter to the Galatians.
Very good that you mention the diversity with many possible views, and that there are also different views within the same denomination too. For example in the denomination where I´m a member - Church of Sweden (our equivalent to church of England) the view differs between congregations and individual priests and individual parish members. Personally I guess I can be labled as having some thoughts in common with some variant of the B-perspective, but I have a complicated view.. On a national level Church of Sweden has both "same sex marriage" and women priests, but in one of the congregations I visit often in Göteborg, Swedens 2d largest town, neither such marriages nor women priests would be possible - because the congregations members simply want it to be so, Also the priests have a formal right to perform marriages, but not the duty to do it, so the priests have some freedom. Also on other issues the large differences today are often not between the denominations - but straight through them. I go to where I believe that there is a divine presence.
I sometimes go to other denominations, for example the Catholic Church. The Catholic vicar in our town actually preaches more Lutheran than some priests in my own Lutheran church. I´m sort of an ecumeical non denominational christian, but I have my "base" in Church of Sweden. I´d say I´m a theologically conservatige christian - but maybe not a typical such, being also christian & vegan, and animal rights activist, inspired by professor & priest Andrew Linzey in England, pastor Frank Hoffman in USA, and other well known names in the "veggie-christian movement".🙂
As an affirming Christian, I wish more denominations would simply allow for diversity of belief in this area. We should show love to all people but beyond showing that love we should not be splitting our churches apart over this.
Not going to happen, unfortunately. That requires nonaffirming Christians to concede that others think and act differently within their own lives, and there's nothing they can do about it. Which they view as "encouraging sin". 🤦♂️
But every time they "allow for diversity of belief", the Progressive Christians just wait until they have 51% of the power, then start trying to purge and exclude everyone who won't agree with them.
Not that traditional Christians can really complain, since that's what Christianity itself did in Rome. Appealing for others to have tolerance and diversity until you're the majority, then instantly flipping and betraying those ideals.
@@abaddon2148 unfortunately there is plenty of judgement happening from the affirming side as well. Just recently a clergy person of relatively high standing in my denomination expressed that they were not saddened at the conservative churches leaving, it gave off kind of a “good riddance” attitude that I think is very inappropriate.
right on If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
When it comes to the Word of God, there is not "allowing for diversity of belief". 1 Cor. 1 plainly shows the apostle Paul preaching that Christians MUST believe the _same_ doctrines, have the _same_ judgement, and practice the _same_ traditions. The "love" you're talking about isn't true love. It's a lie. Love doesn't affirm or support lawless living, let alone allow ppl to destroy themselves by telling them that what they're doing is okay.
We must continue to share Truth - in 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, where we called ourselves gay Christians. Then I found myself in an ICU where the medical team classified me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind of perversion, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
Thank you for your testimony 🙏
Reminds me of the last line in 1984 "He loved big brother".
it's not uncommon to hallucinate when you flatline.
@@kittyborf no hallucinations here
@@CrossAndWindMinistries I am unaware of any reliable mechanism that is able to differentiate between a "natural" NDE and a "supernatural" NDE.
I would ask you to cite the peer reviewed and published paper that you based your determination on, but I know that you won't because you can't because you have nothing.
You claim to have had an experience, so now you believe you are the "special one" who out of the billions of non Christians on the planet your god chose to turn up and introduce itself, but instead of presenting your evidence of this encounter and winning yourself the Templeton prize, you post on RUclips.
Lmfao
All I hear when I see the different "types" of Christanity is "did God really say?" If we have to make concessions for His Word, then it shows we arent understanding something about His character. Either not trusting He is good or not trusting His power to cleanse. Its sad that its believed that its the one thing He cant bring into alignment with Him.
OK, I love these videos!! But now I’m confused about some churches position regarding biblical sexuality. In the old Testament, I am not a Christian, I was just raised as one, many of the founding members, and I speak of Abraham, had multiple wives. When you get to the New Testament, as far as I can remember, there’s no talk of multiple wives. So fast-forward to 2024. Some Christian denominations are all in an uproar about homosexuality and they go back to the Bible and talk about biblical sexuality. I guess I’m confused because in my mind multiple Wives,= Promiscuity and is just as bad as same-sex attraction. Or maybe because the multiple wives were all female they’re letting it go? Is there anywhere in the New Testament that talks about same-sex attraction as being something that is against God? Or is it only offensive to straight man?
As an outsider, I don't get why so many people are so angry over this. If you truly believe that homosexuality is against your beliefs, the only way that you'll be able to convince people of that sexuality to follow your beliefs is to accept that there are multiple viewpoints, and multiple interpretations and then allowing them to come to their own conclusion after hearing a fair presentation of both sides. By doing anything else, you drive that community (and anyone who supports them) away. You only hurt yourself by insisting on a non-inclusive interpretation.
this.
well said.
Beliefs are not something you fake for others to find appealing. As an insider, I have to say that I find the debate silly considering that heteros ought not to be having all the sex they are having either...
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
God said that His ppl are to view sin the way He views it, and He hates it. Ofc you don't get it because you're an outsider, and you don't understand the effects that these kinds of sins have on society once it is normalized.
A very interesting presentation. He doesn't talk about the two denominations I am most familiar with, which are Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Church in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople. I think the Catholic Church is pretty much side B. I am guessing the Orthodox one also.
I am not sure this is always helpful, but the way I have thought about this is that homosexuality for many is a problem with who God is for us, as Creator. My sexuality is one of the greatest sources of energy in my life, for good and for ill, and It brings joy, hope and purpose for me in many ways. As well as temptation, sin and despair at times. I would say that is true for most people. Yet we have a group of people who have been deprived, through no act of their own, from being able to ever see their sexual desire as almost anything but a dirty, poisoned burden. It is as if God has cursed them specifically. And it's not just the same-sex attraction, but often the other characteristics that come with it, like effeminacy in same-sex attracted men. As much as we want to stop bashing, bullying and teasing, particularly among children and the young, a young person who is that different is always going to make some of their peers feel uncomfortable and challenged. And these young people are going to be aware of that, further making them feel alienated and cursed. "My yoke is easy and my burden light" anyone? How does a loving God let this happen? Hence the God problem. The solution is never going to be "lets not talk about this and pretend it's not painful to those who experience it".
I watched the staff confront this sort of thing in my Catholic school about 40 years ago. Their response included violence, rage, denial and ineffective coping, with some of the teachers watching the painful things that had been done to them by their peers years before happening to new victims in front of them. Among these were some who would later go to jail for sexual abuse. I don't have any easy answers. But we have to talk about it. Our ultimate relationship will always be with God. There's no marriage in heaven. But we get there through the glorious, beautiful, sacred, screwed up and broken humanity that Jesus, the second person of the Trinity took on and we need the humility to make that possible for everyone, especially those on the margins.
Not exactly word for word but Pope John Paul explained it like this:: being Gay ‘IS NOT’ a sin, but practicing the same sex Gay act ‘IS’ a sin.
truth If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Catholic and Orthodox are side Y, not side B
Catholics are not Side B, they are Side Y.
The Catholic position (Side Y) can be summarized like this:
1) Homosexual tendencies are taught to be “gravely disordered.”
2) Gay men are banned from being admitted to seminaries/the priesthood.
3) Terms like “a Christian struggling with same-sex attraction” are allowable in certain contexts, provided that the primary identifier remains Christian/Catholic.
4) the mere temptation itself is not a personally culpable sin, but dwelling on or acting on the temptation is gravely sinful.
If the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches had historically precluded from the clergy men who were even tempted by homosexual desires, I wonder whether they would have survived to this day, given all people (I am Greek Orthodox) in these churches are obligated to give confession.
I find some of the positions confusing. If there is a “side x” person out there who can help me understand: is it your position that there are certain temptations, which preclude formal church ministry, even if a person lives in repentance regarding those temptations? Is the issue the temptation, the self-association with the temptation, or both? If a person is tempted in that way but makes no public acknowledgment about that temptation, is that more acceptable than making the acknowledgment?
I ask in good faith, as one who is genuinely curious. Thanks!
I think, historically, this was not even a question that was asked of men joining the priesthood but it kinda was always known that some men did indeed join the priesthood as a means to escape marriage and indulge in sodomy, within the priesthood and kept it quiet.
It was understood that these men would not be scrutinized and in return, they stayed within the priesthood and made sure they didnt bring scandal to themselves and the wider Church.
If "clergy", whatever the nonsense that is, had these problems, then they shouldn't be there. I would never dare to even think of going into the ministry if my christian life was that messed up. Christians should stop loving their sin more than God; they should stop making Sin their lord and master, and stop making Jesus a beggar. I read no gospel in these comments. No wonder the world laughs and mocks.
The Catholic Church still bans admitting men with homosexual tendencies to seminaries.
But I’m not sure what you are trying to say with your Confession comment. Violating the Seal of the Confessional is a serious crime. If a Confessor reveals with the Penitent said within the Confessional, they are automatically excommunicated.
@@carsonianthegreat4672 That’s interesting about seminary admissions.
However, my point about confessions, I think, still stands. A priest may confess to a homosexual sin. The confessor may have the discretion to put him under obedience (penance). If it were entirely true that men with homosexual desires cannot serve as clergy, I would imagine confessors would obligate priests who confess as much to ask their bishops to be relieved of duty. I’m not Catholic, so I may be misunderstanding, but I know, as an Orthodox Christian, seeing men mysteriously step away from the priesthood is far rarer than what I imagine to be the statistical distribution of men with homosexual tendencies.
@@robertAGC requiring a penitent to reveal their sin to another as a condition of absolution is still a violation of the Seal of Confession and still results in automatic excommunication. In your scenario, the confessor who tried to obligate that would be excommunicated from the Church.
Also, it should be noted that while gay men are not allowed to be admitted to seminary/ordained to the priesthood, if a man with homosexual temptations were to be ordained by mistake, or to develop homosexual desires later in life, they don’t stop being a priest. Their ordination was/is still a real ordination.
I think examining the Mormon position here would also be interesting. Their church has a long history of being side X but they are distinct from most other Christians in that marriage is a requirement for full salvation. This results in more pressure for and cases of openly same sex attracted Mormons to marry a member of the opposite sex. Sometimes their descriptions sound more like side b but with an emphasis on heterosexual marriage rather than celibacy.
Thank you for the work you do!
So Side B is basically Catholic Doctrine on the subject
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Well, not really, you would have to add a couple of ‘ f slurs’ to make this properly Catholic. It is the ‘one true Church’ after all 😌
The Catholic position is actually closer to "Don't ask don't tell" while actual doctrine has only been modified to state that homosexuality isn't a violation of canon law.
No. Side Y would be much closer to what the preference of the Church seems to be. Meaning the desires themselves are not sinful but it is not wise to identify oneself by them.
Not quite. The Catholic Church is more “Side Y.” It prohibits letting gay men into seminaries/the priesthood. However, it permits the use of language like “a Christian with same-sex attraction” (in certain contexts) provided that the primary identity is Christian/Catholic, not SSA.
I lean in to the B or Y position (based on what it was explained to be below in the comments).
I understand that there is testimonial and scientific evidence that people are indeed born with their sexual orientation, and LGBT orientations also have been found to be linked with conditions like Autism, ADHD, Bipolar, etc (in my personal long term research on the matter, and academic studies), and so I cannot say that being 'born' with something as part of you biologically/neurologically can be "sin" in itself that someone can be accused of or demanded to repent of, though the 'act' and attraction type it promotes is of course something sinful.
Whilst I do not compare gay people with pedophiles, there is scientific research also showing people are born with an orientation to children, and yet everyone believes it to be wrong to act out those attractions on minors. And so in such a stead, I'd hold based on God's word, homosexual 'acts and relationships' to be sinful, and such urges for such are a result of the fall as far as humanity is concerned. But those born with the inner makeup and orientation toward the same sex, are no different from anyone else born with a specific condition.
If a person is too afraid to come out to you, even though they are not committing any sinful act or living a homosexual lifestyle, or even if they have but are repentant/struggling, then something is wrong and the love of Christ isn't being expressed in the Congregation. We must differentiate the sin from the sinner, and be empathetic people to those with such inborn struggles.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
But pedophiles hurt children as they cannot consent. Neither can animals consent. Why should gay people deny themselves though? Why do you not compare homosexuality to heterosexuality ?
Without knowing the terms, I’ve always been naturally inclined towards “side B.” But I would find the term “gay Christian” inappropriate.
To add more complexity, some on side B lean towards side X and some in side B lean more to side A.
I feel that, for a long time, conservative Americans or Brits have used homophobia to keep Christian males in line and blackmail males with feminine tendencies with the following rhetorics: "You only have 2 choices: hide in a Church or get ostracized."
It worked well before the 1960s (even though it also ruined the potential of those who consider art, literature, and other non-sport hobbies feminine), but sex liberation changed the rule of the game. When different religious groups want to modify their way of doing things, many secular organizations also learn to use sexuality to blackmail members and opponents.
Interesting. I’m Catholic and the official church teaching seems to be Side B, although there are many who advocate for Side A and Side X.
Side A is unambiguously ruled out.
Catholics have *always* had a way for being completely against the church's teachings, but supporting the church anyway, while not even realising their actions make no sense. 🤣
@@jdotoz Beg your pardon? I went to a Catholic high school and learned Side B from my ex-seminary religion teacher.
@@SRMkay Well, the magisterial teaching is as clear as it is definitive: sex is only for within marriage, and marriage consists only of exactly one unmarried man and exactly one unmarried woman. There's no room for Side A. The only question is about homosexual identity (that is, B or X). I believe the teaching favors B overall, but perhaps not exactly.
@@jdotoz I actually misread your original reply, I thought you said Side *B* was ruled out. My mistake!
I'm not fond of using "alcoholic" or "drug addict" as an identifier either. I think that it labels the person and affects the way they think about themselves. That is why I have issues with Alcoholics Anonymous and their continued affirmation of one another as alcoholics.
Our common problem causes us to look for a common solution. It may not be for everyone, but identifying our problem helps at least some of us accept the solution: turning our lives over to God.
@@HolyKhaaaaan People like this want common solutions because complex ones hurt their fee fees.
To me it’s like how we call each other sinners, I am a sinner, but redeemed in Christ, so it goes that one could say
“I am an alcoholic, but I am not going to let that shackle me forever”
@@memeboi6017 I am convinced that maintaining the label indicates a lack of repentance and is a statement that the man is still in Adam. I Corinthians 6:9-10 indicates that those who are redeemed are no longer homosexuals. Do I think that every single person amongst the redeemed no longer has temptations in that area? No. But there is a fundamental change which has already occurred, and maintaining the label indicates that one is still in Adam and not in Christ.
The obsessive hate aimed at homosexuality destroys congregations and families as well as denominations. I know LGBTQ+ individuals and families that marry, raise children, and live Christ-like lives that have been attacked by and alienated from their churches and extended families. Children ask their parents "why do grandma and grandpa hate us?" I have been a member of my congregation for 32 years and we have always embraced love as the central tenet of our faith and welcome everyone into our circle. Many people have arrived to our doors deeply wounded by churches that endorsed anti-LGBT+ conversion "therapy", covered up sexual abuse scandals, and abused power in a variety of ways.
The American church right now is obsessed with criminalizing homosexuality at any cost. They are willing to support a convicted felon, adulteror, and rapist to become a dictator over the USA because they might get homosexuality criminalized. It's clear that to most Christians homosexuality is much more than a sin. It's the issue by which the Pharisaical American church judges everyone and society itself. It allows American Christians to be comfortable in their own, lesser sins because at least they aren't a [insert gay f slur here].
I find it interesting that the anti gay churches tend to get into a lot more scandals when it comes to covering up SA, CSA, and child abuse in general. Maybe because you understand the basic concept of "consenting adults". Maybe it's because you interpret "homosexuality" as "p3d0philia". Who knows, but whenever abuse does happen in affirming churches, I notice it's always dealt with swiftly by the proper authorities. I have nothing but respect for affirming churches.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I think neither of the extremes are good. If you're really a Christian, you cannot condone any homosexual behaviour. It is sinful and will not lead to heaven, period. If we start compromising this truth, we start denying scripture and lead other people and ourselves to damnation.
On the other hand, we should never hate the sinner. We're all sinners, and homosexual sin is not worse than i.e. adultery in a heterosexual relationship. We should therefore approach people struggling with homosexual temptations in love and with the awareness that we ourselves are not better.
The key points are:
1) Homosexual acts are sinful and against God's commands.
2) However, they are not worse than any other sin.
3) We all sin and fall short from the glory of God.
4) Everybody, no matter if homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual etc. needs repentance and forgiveness for their sin.
5) Love the sinner, hate the sin.
I'm a Christian, and I'm also gay. I encourage you not to entertain the left when they add "Q+." It covers up a multitude of nastiness including the legitimization of s. crimes, which only adds to the right's view that we're all equally condemned.
As a queer Christian, Side A and Side B and Side X have been known to some of us for at least the last 5 years
Genuine question for Side X people, do you think that people with same-sex attraction without acting on it will go to hell if they don't lose that attraction?
I don’t think so. I would call it temptation. As a married man does not just loose attraction to other women.
No. It is a weakness product of original sin, It is , as The Catholic Cathecism teaches "intrinsically disordered" because is an atraction towards Something sinful and is not God's will. But if You don't act on You are faithful to Christ.
No, you have to repent for lusting and make yourself right with God, same as anyone else. Jesus tells us as much at the Sermon on the Mount.
Temptation is supposed to be dealt with so that Jesus shuts the door on it permanently. The purpose of temptation is to exercise Faith and overcome it. When that fails to happen, something is wrong.
No, I dont. Every Christian has their cross to bear.
Jesus said when we believe on Him, we become a new creation. We are also told to turn from sin, and sin no more.
When SSA (or any sin) rears its head in a believer, they need to cry out to Christ for forgiveness and strength to endure to the end.
It's all about redefining *sin* when it becomes personally inconvenient.
I think that is one of the reasons why there are thousands of denominations.
Hit the nail on the head
@@jamesparsonTrue but also the "thousands of denominations" thing is a myth. I know Catholics love to say that but that particular logging of them was a geographically-oriented thing(I think it was for mission work) and so counted each denomination in a country as separate from its ideological kin elsewhere. So a Baptist here in the US would be different from separate denominations like, say, the Eastern Orthodox Church but also from other Baptists in Canada or the UK or Ukraine. So as a result, it vastly overestimated the low-church denominations that don't have a centralized polity like the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
@@HistoryNerd808 Do deny evidence of "thousands of denominations" ?
To be a Christian would I have to deny it too?
I think it’s more about denouncing the sins of hatred that have been perpetuated by the church for far too long.
When Martin Luther nailed his theses to that door, and Baptists maintained that Christians needed no intermediary between them and God, then Protestants have schismed and schismed over and over-over doctrine and racism, over politics and patriarchy. Why should any LGBTQ+ person even consider communing with a church that denigrates them? There are plenty of faiths that welcome them, who can find no hatred in what Christ said in the Gospels. That’s the Protestant way-be your own interpreter of Christianity and commune with people you can agree with.
Should change your name to schwarzesteufel and not tiefel. More accurate.
Sinners should just find churches that accept their sins. I'm looking for one that affirms my desire to have sex with women I'm not married to. Know any?
Amen
No it is not, that is why Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed and Anglicans, both churches that came from the Reformation, are Confessional
@@TheNabOwnzz LOL
The Salvation Army (my denomination) is officially what you would label Side B, as the only reason we don't have full inclusion is the definition of marriage, although we condem barbaric practices such as "conversion therapy". Many people in the Salvation Army have more "Side A" beliefs, however if the Salvation Army officially made a statement in support of same-sex marriage then this would cause issues for Salvationists in countries with severe punishment for homosexuality. Hopefully we can become a loving and affirming church, the view of the younger generation in the Army in the UK tends to be very accepting, so hopefully as the youth become leadership we can make the change to love and acceptance
You wouldn't think some people would put their sexual identity well above God, the concept of a Creator, but here we are.
Wasn't Henri Nouwen a Side B Christian? (although he may not have used the term)
As an Eastern Orthodox, it gives me no joy to see so many churches struggle with politics and make way for sin.
Like the attacks on Ukraine. The Eastern Orthodox community has been war torn by the invasion into a sovereign nation.
Hail Orthodoxy
Unfortunately, it may well be on your doorstep (as it is mine as a Catholic). An Orthodox bishop in Africa, I think one that is in full communion with the other patriarchs, "ordained" a deaconess earlier this year. The political turmoil is creeping everywhere.
Also, please don't take that mention as a criticism. My own Catholic bishop just doubled down on an article that spoke of a laywoman who thinks she's a man participating in a lay monastery, referring to this woman as a man, and I'm sure you're well aware of the drama surrounding Fiducia Supplicans. I fervently pray for unity among our Churches and that we may both stand for the truth of Christ.
As much as I sometimes feel that we were vindicated by all these internal schisms, I also feel no joy over them. I hate to see Christianity fall apart in the West like this.
@@Lando_P1Who is the sovereign? Who is the king?
Nicholas II has been dead for over 100 years.
@@jonahstephens2904 I would be surprised if no one in our churches attempted an obvious heresy in the name of their new god Inclusion. Their new religions has many adherents and breaking the first of 10 commandments is surprisingly easy, even for professing Christians. We are all blind and confused on many things. Thankfully we have Church and tradition to save us from obvious political influence and their new religion.
I think both of our churches will fare this storm better then protestants. I am not aware of the person you mention, but I can't image it will be the last. This new god will make many new converts, before it is exposed as another demonic ploy.
Sounds like Side B's plan is to just keep the slope as slippery as possible, and only take one little step onto it.
For me, if two gay guys don't want to have sex with each other, or make a pretense of doing so, but do wish to have a richly, emotionally deep and vulnerable life together, I don't see the problem with that.
Of course, in the Catholic Church, we have monasteries where they do that already. Are all monastics orgiastic according to Protestants?
I mean, what's the alternative? Conversion therapy?
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@@tarumath319
Abstinence.
When the Apostles complained about Jesus's position on marriage, His response was to explain about eunuchs.
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan that's side b position, to abstain....
I feel like the Catholic Church is side B, where the sin isn't in having an attraction but in acting on it. Just like how I may feel attracted to multiple women, however it is only sinful if I sexually engage with multiple women.
It is at most side B.
I wonder if Fiducia Supplicans was objected to mostly by people on side X. If so, perhaps I do understand why it seems like a seismic shift.
The Catechism does not speak of homosexual desires, as such, as being desired nor sinful (cf. CCC 2358).
If we are going to play this game, then the Catholic Church is Side Y not B. The Catholic Church absolutely rejects the "gay" identity, because the only identity that matters is being a child of God, which is in direct contradiction to the "gay" identity.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
@@alisterrebelo9013 I am not well versed with the letters of sides, it seems like it's building it's own alphabet. Kind of fitting for this issue lol. In that description I think I would agree.
No because the cathecism teaches that homosexuality tendencies are "intrinsically disordered" and because Catholicism teaches that is possible to reach complete Holiness in This life.
@@HolyKhaaaaanFiducia Supplicans was not a “seismic shift.” The Pope later clarified that there was no change in doctrine, and that the attraction is still intrinsically disordered and that the union cannot be blessed.
Thanks for the info!
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god.."
The mere fact that someone would identify as a gay Christian instead of just a Christian shows his identity is based on his sexual preference. Someone who’s entire existence revolves around their sexuality is someone who’s practicing it with enthusiasm hence a sinner.
I like sex a lot too ... But I am happy to be damned if it means not having to spend eternity with Christians... That would be Hell
Nah, it’s not that easy… it can be because they have experienced a lot of bad treatment and self hate because of the same sex attractions, there can be a lot more than what you think… myself is a bisexual Christian. Jesus is for everyone, and yeah marriage is between a man and a women, but the gospel is for all people.
This analysis and report of what is happening in the churches is very helpful. Thanks so much! By the way, I am Side X all the way. May God purify his church and teach us to love all people but without compromise.
truth If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I will not ignore scripture just to satisfy social trends.
Bet you eat shellfish, wear mixed fabrics and haven't given away all your possessions. You need to read Matthew 7: 1-5 and do better.
The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination. Sorry but I agree and will never go to a church that supports it.
The New Testament says nothing about shellfish or mixed fabrics. It does speak against lgbt.
@@crosisofborg5524 So you discount the old testament, without which the is no original sin, no ten commandments and no need for the sacrifice of Jesus, but at least you get to keep the slavery.
@@crosisofborg5524 So did your god change its mind and by omission it becomes no longer a sin to eat shellfish and wear mixed fabrics.
My denomination on average, is between Side A and Side B from my experience. I'm of the ELCA for reference. I don't have a strong view toward either direction myself but I lie somewhere between Side A and Side B. The ELCA doesn't affirm or oppose same sex relations so it's an issue that depends on the congregation and individual discernment. At the end of the day, what matters most is that we are saved by Grace alone and faith alone. God is who matters. the Bible is what matters.
Any comments about the Methodist Collegiate Church? I joined a church belonging to this group. They define marriage to be between a man and a woman, but are more accepting of LGBTQ.
I do think you can be gay (albeit celibate) and a Christian. It just doesn't seem helpful to identify as a "gay Christian", since it implies that there is a difference between gay and straight Christianity. Whatever defects of character we have should not be used as modifiers for our shared faith in Christ. And those defects DEFINITELY should not be celebrated with the language and symbolism of "pride" or a sense of solidarity with those who openly practice LGBT lifestyles.
I don't think it should be regarded as an identity so much as an explanation. And by an explanation, I mean something that an adult male can honestly tell people when they walk up to him at a church service and say for the thousandth time, "Why don't you just find a nice girl and settle down?" (Same with an adult woman, obviously, but they often seem to be regarded as a lower priority for some reason.) The issue with Side X is that it may only exacerbate such social pressures for a celibate "gay" person, potentially leading to an unwise and ill-fated marriage that is harmful to everyone involved.
@@MAMoreno You don't have to be gay to be pressured into a bad marriage.
Your identity is the collection of all things that you hold to be true about yourself. I am a man; I am diabetic; I am a website designer; I am a Midwesterner; I am engaged; I am a Unitarian Universalist. Because I hold these things to be true about myself, I "identify" as those things.
Holding an aspect of my identity does not invalidate another aspect of it. For example, me "identifying as diabetic" does not make me a bad "website designer". This seems obvious.
Labels are often combined when the context calls for it. For example, a Bible Study might be formed for Single Christian Men in order to discuss issues that primarily affect Christian Men when they're trying to date or navigate relationships. A person who resonates with this group is "identifying" as Single, as a Christian, and as a Man.
This does not mean he is making being a Man into an idol or making being Single into an idol and it would be RIDICULOUS to tell him to stop identifying as a man or as single because HIS IDENTITY IS IN CHRIST!
In discussions about LGBTQ+ issues in the church, the context immediately begs where people who are LGBTQ+ and are Christians fit in the Church and what they are allowed to do.
A Christian who is same-sex attracted is a "gay Christian" regardless of whether they "act on it". And combining labels like these in a discussion is a common convention of the English language that we do all the time without thinking about it (like addressing "Single Men"). Them referring to themselves as a "gay Christian" is in no way tarnishing their identity as a "Christian".
7:15 is basically my opinion. Also, I'm Catholic for anyone who cares.
There’s a bit of confusion between “Side B” and what is called “Side Y.” The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual attraction is “intrinsically disordered.” However, it also says that the mere temptation is not a personally culpable sin, so long as one does not dwell or act on it. The Church also bans gay men from entering the seminary. However, it does permit the use of terms like “a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction” in certain circumstances, provided that the primary identifier is Christian and not “same-sex attracted.”
That’s why believing Catholic theologians prefer the term “Side Y” over “Side B.”
Very good video. I, myself, prefer Side C, that is, don't ask, don't tell.
Trouble is that even if you don't know, God does. So either it's fine with God and should be with us as well (Side A) or it's not, and we need to tell people that (Side B/X).
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
What is the definition of Side Y that you mentioned?
Based on what I've seen other people say. I haven't investigated Side B and Y personally.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
@@alisterrebelo9013 It's the most logical position too. Immoral thoughts entering your head are not sin, fostering them is. You cannot stop a bird from flying overhead, but you can stop it from nesting on your roof
This is a huge problem for a denomination that claims God predestined everything that happens. If God predestined men who go with men and women who go with women what about men or women who go with sheep?