This is why I think they did this episode just to counter Dylan. I love the trainer road stuff, no right or wrong - just a different view. Imagine the world we would live in if everyone did the same thing.. The only disappointing thing is that this episode felt so setup. They were just waiting to jump on all of the setup questions - so transparent. No need to be defensive boys if you believe in your product.
@@TrainerRoad Giving Dylan some credit for the great scientific and practical advice he give to all his viewers would be the noble thing to do. No need to counter!
@@TrainerRoad thanks. Really looking forward to the 25th!! Can Chad also give some context to ‘raising the floor’ please. I think this is about increasing the duration at a given % of VO2, but would value having this confirmed. Thanks.
@@mrwest6150 To me Dylan Johnson has a goofy format that shows a bunch of scientific papers written with opposing views that leaves the reader more confused after watching his video.. These guys here are phenomenal. They cover everything with much more knowledge and different viewpoints that make things fascinating.
Chad and the team explain this really well, and I've listened to this a few times on and off the past few years. Watching again to keep getting the message.
Really interesting pod. I think the message is to work out your objectives. - type of riding, priority in terms of capabilities - and current status/capabilities/weaknesses. Then find a plan to meet these objectives and improve weaknesses and be consistent. But the message also seems to be to mix it up. I think the challenge is to work out the best plan over a year, say, that allows for variety and consistency within the available training time!
Thanks guys! Super on point and interesting. I’m a rider who routinely doesn’t follow my coach’s program, often doing way more than prescribed. I just love riding. This video got to the point of why to follow a structured program, and it got my attention. Thank you ❤ David
This was great up through Chad's comments that the goal is to do things that challenge your heart, lung and vascular system to approve aerobic endurance - that will translate into a higher FTP. Z2 does that over time with endurance. Intervals of any sort do that over the course of a workout. And to continue to push adaptation, you need to continue to change the type of stress you do plus the durations. Net-net you can get there many different ways by following these principals and listening to your body. After this point, I found that the group discussion muddied the water as it diverged from Chad's well stated points into "it depends" land which is not helpful.
Another great podcast. I think that something that kept getting alluded to all the time, but not fully explicitly stated, was that everything is about building with the structure related to that developmental building. You put down the training foundation then you use that foundation as the stepping stone to training the next development on the ladder. It's not about turning things on their head, but upping elements of the training protocol, tweaking the effort type to the next variation level, then taking that improvement and plugging that development back into the training structure to make it more functional and so on, building facets of performance. TSS is built up of three components: Skill, Intensity and Duration. All three need to be built. Training is adaptation to load. TSS is an overall stress measurement on how the load is constructed. They aren't separate components either - they interact and affect each other. This is why training structure and building upon that structure is so important. Leave one element of that triumvirate construction behind and you will have performance failure somewhere down the line. It is all about building the foundations to the next, higher form of training. Again, nice podcast guys!
Great episode. Dylan does some good videos for sure,but these guys are unbiased and deliver the goods and on point they are clear and there for anyone to understand and non judgemental of others they just state the facts.
Is this understanding basically correct? The idea in this podcast that building FTP (which is synonomous with aerobic performance) is best accomplished with a targeted range of consistent sessions. Frequency, duration, and intensity are the main parameters of how to train. The proper mix is probably weighted to zone 1/2 (5 zone model), with about 10-20% of training time spent in zone 3/4? I'm assuming a 5-8 hours per week of training. Very little time in zone 5 (probably less than 5-10 minutes a week?) What about an athlete in their late 60s with HR limited to 130-135 because of a cardiac ablation and on beta blockers? I'm encouraged/urged to keep exercising by my PCP and cardiologist. I've been watching your podcasts for a few months and really find them a wealth of ideas and information.
Interesting as I have been reading about polarised training yet I am limited in time, so what you said makes sense for a non pro. I mostly focus on tempo, sweetspot and 1 or 2 VO2Max interval sessions per week as they beat me up. The endurance level sessions I feel I could do all day.
What I get from this video is, if you think you can get fast and avoid burning out, go to polirized. Seiler himself talked about his bike intervals on a video as well he acknowledged the principle of specificity. When it comes to physiology, the polirized training suits those that have 15+hours per week, since like even Nate made it clear, one can't just fill in those hours with high intensity (not even medium intensity). Polirized is easier on your body but it won't take one into the racing specifics. Dylan is smarter than people think, he promoted his channel but he himself isn't a champ because of polirized. It is hard to believe that he has for always trained 80:20. Maybe he does it now at his level because he did something else before in his development time. When it comes to too much intensity, it is up to the trainee to do what's he /she can do,meaning, skip a workout /change to endurance, if one feels too tired.
Does Chad drink coffee and if so, how much? Loved the video! It's extremely nice to be able to listen to all this great information. You guys really really rock! Both have better hair than I do :( I liked and commented :D
From Chad! "Yep, I grind my own, weigh it, measure the water, single origin only, all that. I mostly do French press or pour-over, but I also have a suuuuper slow/all-day Yama cold drip tower for cold brew." Coffee-Nerd achievement unlocked. Haha we love Chad.
I breathe nasally and diaphragmlicly and I see my blood pressure goes down to around 115/65 It is reported that humming increases the body's production for nitrous oxide which relaxes the body and lungs
Perhaps I’m a simpleton, but I found what Keegan said to be very contradictory to what Chad was saying. I honestly feel more confused on the topic after watching than before.
Chad said you can increase your aerobic capacity in many ways. Keegan shared what worked for him. Chad said you have to vary how you challenge your body as it adapts. Keegan said he does this by adding 30/30s and such. I think they are consistent. I think you have to keep in mind Keegan is looking to be competitive in a wide assortment of races and relies on his low tempo for hours base ability.
James, you are not a simpleton. Can you point out, what about is contradictory? I have not watched every single one of those "Ask..." podcasts, but in my opinion, thisone is just brilliant. Information received vs the podcasts lenght is extraordinary, phenomenal!
@@cvdavis isn't it more of the fact that pros have done lots and lots of base work in zones 1-2 before racing professionally multiple times a year, they've improved their fat burning efficiency to such a high level, they have v high pedalling efficiency levels (correct me if I'm wrong on PES), and their lactate threshold / ftp is very close to their vo2 peak, and hence their recovery from a hard effort or match, back to the point where they can push again is very small in terms of numbers on heart rate and / or power? Age groupers don't have the time to do all the training pros do, nor in most cases can they cope with the volume. Tour de France riders CTL levels are about 180 for the duration of the event. Hence pros are keeping their engines topped up for most of the year, as they are racing so much more than age groupers.
From what Keegan said, it sounded like he was conducting most of his training in TEMPO. I did a quick view in his last few Rides on Strava. From that sample at least it showed that he does most in zone 1 and 2 in a 7-Zone Model. So much more in line with a 20/80 approach rather then in Sweetspot if that sample was somewhat representative...
Very interesting what you say aOne question on that. You say you have to work with all the aspects. Neuro muscular, Tempo, Vo2 and so. Do you have to block them in, or can you mix them? Is it easier to recognize a plateau if you block them?
Keep in mind that Strava ftp is often based on short efforts and isn’t often reflective of what you can actually do for an hour. Try to do an actual hour ftp effort and you’ll see what I mean. Strava power profile is a much more effective gauge of what you can’t do, though you’ll have to do max or close to max efforts at various lengths of time to getter a better gauge of what you can do. The power profile can help you target weak spots and/or help you improve certain zones that will be necessary for certain events.
so when you say greater oxidative capabilities you are solely refering to the mitrochronia adapations? If not, what are these capabilities you are speaking of. increase density of mitochrondra? greater effecienty of mitro? I'm trying to hone in what exactly is going in, as a person that has a good understanding of cellular energy. What structually is going on.
Coach Chad is wrong. Any riding that you are going is training your body in some way. Some ways are a lot more efficient than others but your body is still being trained. You can training for good habits or bad habits but you are still training ( you body is still learning ) .
I think you are confusing “time on bike/exercising” with “training”. Simply exercising can be done in any zone and for any duration. But *training* requires more specificity in order to place your body under an unaccustomed load (stress) in order to elicit an adaptive response. Not all “exercising” is “training”.
Training is simple ... I think with all these training programs trainer road seems to be confusing many and also many don't really know. Off season and on season ... 6 to 5 months prior to racing you follow a system. There is no way one want to be grinding sweetspot for 2 to 3 months and then do them over and over ... Dylan J is correct as he is a coach ... generic programs are generic programs... what mid to top athletes are getting top results with these sweetspot programs I have to ask ? A beginner will basically improve on any program ... also Dylan has never said no sweetspot or threshold ... Keegan mentions those endurance tempo zones ... many coaches are prescribing that. Seems like trainer road will revamp the programs soon ? Coach got it wrong when he says and reference to the many hours that study showed 6 hrs and that is not hours and hours ... Anyways it is interesting the least.
Well, yes and No. Yes if You start off a relatively low fitness level. Then it’s really not complex at all. Steadily add volume and intensity and you will quickly increase fitness. No, when you are close to your biological limits and in particular if you specialize in some particular discipline. No wonder you find very few (if any) world class riders that can do everything (then there are a few recent exceptions such as WVA, MVDP and Pidcock), but generally one needs to be very specific at a certain point to improve - and that specificity is individual - biological, training background and current fitness/plateau/progress. The basics will obviously still be the same but optimal training will still differ a lot between individuals
Seiler answered a viewer-submitted question on Sweet Spot in a recent video on his RUclips channel. Here’s the link: ruclips.net/video/StnxjISyeWg/видео.html Happens around the 10:20 mark in the video. The question was something along the lines of “Is Sweet Spot an inherently different theoretical framework that is better for improving aerobic capacity, and how does it fit into the 80/20 model if at all?” Notice that it’s already filled with that loaded ‘aerobic capacity’ term. Worth a watch to anybody interested in dissecting the true differences versus the differences that come from inconsistent translations.
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Very interested in hearing your thoughts on what Dylan Johnson said about the Trainer Road training plans.
We’re going to cover polarized in depth in the podcast next Thursday (Feb 25). :)
This is why I think they did this episode just to counter Dylan. I love the trainer road stuff, no right or wrong - just a different view. Imagine the world we would live in if everyone did the same thing.. The only disappointing thing is that this episode felt so setup. They were just waiting to jump on all of the setup questions - so transparent. No need to be defensive boys if you believe in your product.
@@TrainerRoad Giving Dylan some credit for the great scientific and practical advice he give to all his viewers would be the noble thing to do. No need to counter!
@@TrainerRoad thanks. Really looking forward to the 25th!! Can Chad also give some context to ‘raising the floor’ please. I think this is about increasing the duration at a given % of VO2, but would value having this confirmed. Thanks.
@@mrwest6150 To me Dylan Johnson has a goofy format that shows a bunch of scientific papers written with opposing views that leaves the reader more confused after watching his video.. These guys here are phenomenal. They cover everything with much more knowledge and different viewpoints that make things fascinating.
Chad and the team explain this really well, and I've listened to this a few times on and off the past few years. Watching again to keep getting the message.
Really interesting pod. I think the message is to work out your objectives. - type of riding, priority in terms of capabilities - and current status/capabilities/weaknesses. Then find a plan to meet these objectives and improve weaknesses and be consistent. But the message also seems to be to mix it up. I think the challenge is to work out the best plan over a year, say, that allows for variety and consistency within the available training time!
I do horrible on ramp tests......so I turned to racing as a means of raising my FTP.....since September 18, 2023 went from 140 to 147 on 12-31-23....
Thanks guys! Super on point and interesting. I’m a rider who routinely doesn’t follow my coach’s program, often doing way more than prescribed. I just love riding. This video got to the point of why to follow a structured program, and it got my attention. Thank you ❤ David
This was great up through Chad's comments that the goal is to do things that challenge your heart, lung and vascular system to approve aerobic endurance - that will translate into a higher FTP. Z2 does that over time with endurance. Intervals of any sort do that over the course of a workout. And to continue to push adaptation, you need to continue to change the type of stress you do plus the durations. Net-net you can get there many different ways by following these principals and listening to your body. After this point, I found that the group discussion muddied the water as it diverged from Chad's well stated points into "it depends" land which is not helpful.
Another great podcast. I think that something that kept getting alluded to all the time, but not fully explicitly stated, was that everything is about building with the structure related to that developmental building.
You put down the training foundation then you use that foundation as the stepping stone to training the next development on the ladder. It's not about turning things on their head, but upping elements of the training protocol, tweaking the effort type to the next variation level, then taking that improvement and plugging that development back into the training structure to make it more functional and so on, building facets of performance.
TSS is built up of three components: Skill, Intensity and Duration. All three need to be built. Training is adaptation to load. TSS is an overall stress measurement on how the load is constructed. They aren't separate components either - they interact and affect each other. This is why training structure and building upon that structure is so important. Leave one element of that triumvirate construction behind and you will have performance failure somewhere down the line. It is all about building the foundations to the next, higher form of training.
Again, nice podcast guys!
thats a really long winded way of saying to progressively overload yourself
Great episode. Dylan does some good videos for sure,but these guys are unbiased and deliver the goods and on point they are clear and there for anyone to understand and non judgemental of others they just state the facts.
Thank God for quick clips and not having to sift through 2 hours of blab 👍
You mean 2 hours of *GOLD*?!?!! ;)
I visit this discussion often. So insightful.
Is this understanding basically correct?
The idea in this podcast that building FTP (which is synonomous with aerobic performance) is best accomplished with a targeted range of consistent sessions. Frequency, duration, and intensity are the main parameters of how to train. The proper mix is probably weighted to zone 1/2 (5 zone model), with about 10-20% of training time spent in zone 3/4? I'm assuming a 5-8 hours per week of training. Very little time in zone 5 (probably less than 5-10 minutes a week?)
What about an athlete in their late 60s with HR limited to 130-135 because of a cardiac ablation and on beta blockers?
I'm encouraged/urged to keep exercising by my PCP and cardiologist.
I've been watching your podcasts for a few months and really find them a wealth of ideas and information.
Loved this video...and length was very digestible. Thank you. Both y'all have hair that's better than mine...we'll leave it at that.
Interesting as I have been reading about polarised training yet I am limited in time, so what you said makes sense for a non pro. I mostly focus on tempo, sweetspot and 1 or 2 VO2Max interval sessions per week as they beat me up. The endurance level sessions I feel I could do all day.
Riding at tempo doesn't give you stimulus beyond what you can already do. You have to go over your FTP to optimally improve it.
Miss ya Chad! Great podcast.
Nate is an engineery Phil Dunphy. with monster watts
Great video. Think the added context provided by Keegan was really helpful too.
Spitting out my afternoon tea here - Nate sounds a little triggered himself...LOL
Very defensive ... I wonder what his race results are ?
What I get from this video is, if you think you can get fast and avoid burning out, go to polirized.
Seiler himself talked about his bike intervals on a video as well he acknowledged the principle of specificity. When it comes to physiology, the polirized training suits those that have 15+hours per week, since like even Nate made it clear, one can't just fill in those hours with high intensity (not even medium intensity).
Polirized is easier on your body but it won't take one into the racing specifics. Dylan is smarter than people think, he promoted his channel but he himself isn't a champ because of polirized. It is hard to believe that he has for always trained 80:20. Maybe he does it now at his level because he did something else before in his development time.
When it comes to too much intensity, it is up to the trainee to do what's he /she can do,meaning, skip a workout /change to endurance, if one feels too tired.
Does Chad drink coffee and if so, how much? Loved the video! It's extremely nice to be able to listen to all this great information. You guys really really rock! Both have better hair than I do :( I liked and commented :D
From Chad! "Yep, I grind my own, weigh it, measure the water, single origin only, all that. I mostly do French press or pour-over, but I also have a suuuuper slow/all-day Yama cold drip tower for cold brew." Coffee-Nerd achievement unlocked. Haha we love Chad.
@@TrainerRoad Chad - What grinder do you use? Coffee nerd here too.
Edmund Burke was a big believer in Z3. I don’t think anyone in the know would doubt his credentials.
Yay! Let's hear it for the grey zone!😃
The answer is: ride hours of 80% of FTP
and on a more serious note: don't just coast on your long steady distance, you need to have some intensity.
Spoiler: We have training plans to help with that! ;)
80% ftp is tempo and will just burn you out before you get any benefits.
I breathe nasally and diaphragmlicly and I see my blood pressure goes down to around 115/65 It is reported that humming increases the body's production for nitrous oxide which relaxes the body and lungs
Gidday from Brisbane, Australia. I’m wondering when we’ll see the adaptive training come on line, or have I missed something?
We're adding hundreds of athletes to closed beta daily! ;)
Perhaps I’m a simpleton, but I found what Keegan said to be very contradictory to what Chad was saying. I honestly feel more confused on the topic after watching than before.
my head has also been going in circles trying to follow all the cycling training advice lately
Chad said you can increase your aerobic capacity in many ways. Keegan shared what worked for him. Chad said you have to vary how you challenge your body as it adapts. Keegan said he does this by adding 30/30s and such. I think they are consistent. I think you have to keep in mind Keegan is looking to be competitive in a wide assortment of races and relies on his low tempo for hours base ability.
James, you are not a simpleton. Can you point out, what about is contradictory?
I have not watched every single one of those "Ask..." podcasts, but in my opinion, thisone is just brilliant. Information received vs the podcasts lenght is extraordinary, phenomenal!
@@cvdavis isn't it more of the fact that pros have done lots and lots of base work in zones 1-2 before racing professionally multiple times a year, they've improved their fat burning efficiency to such a high level, they have v high pedalling efficiency levels (correct me if I'm wrong on PES), and their lactate threshold / ftp is very close to their vo2 peak, and hence their recovery from a hard effort or match, back to the point where they can push again is very small in terms of numbers on heart rate and / or power? Age groupers don't have the time to do all the training pros do, nor in most cases can they cope with the volume. Tour de France riders CTL levels are about 180 for the duration of the event. Hence pros are keeping their engines topped up for most of the year, as they are racing so much more than age groupers.
From what Keegan said, it sounded like he was conducting most of his training in TEMPO. I did a quick view in his last few Rides on Strava. From that sample at least it showed that he does most in zone 1 and 2 in a 7-Zone Model. So much more in line with a 20/80 approach rather then in Sweetspot if that sample was somewhat representative...
"There's more than a way to skin a cat" lol I'd never heard that one! (I'm not a native speaker). That's the biggest takeaway for me! ;)
chad is awesome!
Good video!
Very interesting what you say aOne question on that. You say you have to work with all the aspects. Neuro muscular, Tempo, Vo2 and so. Do you have to block them in, or can you mix them? Is it easier to recognize a plateau if you block them?
It depends on the type of system you're trying to develop within those zones. Luckily, Plan Builder takes that guess work out for you! :)
hello, what do you think about the values of FTP that you get from zwift aond zwiftpower? thanks and great job
Hmm. We cant speak to the accuracies of our competitor's tools, just to the effectiveness of our own! ;)
Keep in mind that Strava ftp is often based on short efforts and isn’t often reflective of what you can actually do for an hour. Try to do an actual hour ftp effort and you’ll see what I mean. Strava power profile is a much more effective gauge of what you can’t do, though you’ll have to do max or close to max efforts at various lengths of time to getter a better gauge of what you can do. The power profile can help you target weak spots and/or help you improve certain zones that will be necessary for certain events.
@@TrainerRoad this is like asking McDonalds what they think of Burger Kings fries ! 🤦♂️
so when you say greater oxidative capabilities you are solely refering to the mitrochronia adapations? If not, what are these capabilities you are speaking of. increase density of mitochrondra? greater effecienty of mitro? I'm trying to hone in what exactly is going in, as a person that has a good understanding of cellular energy. What structually is going on.
A good follow-up question to send to trainerroad.com/podcast! ;)
Coach Chad is wrong. Any riding that you are going is training your body in some way. Some ways are a lot more efficient than others but your body is still being trained. You can training for good habits or bad habits but you are still training ( you body is still learning ) .
I think you are confusing “time on bike/exercising” with “training”. Simply exercising can be done in any zone and for any duration. But *training* requires more specificity in order to place your body under an unaccustomed load (stress) in order to elicit an adaptive response. Not all “exercising” is “training”.
Nate is easily triggered.
Training is simple ...
I think with all these training programs trainer road seems to be confusing many and also many don't really know.
Off season and on season ... 6 to 5 months prior to racing you follow a system. There is no way one want to be grinding sweetspot for 2 to 3 months and then do them over and over ... Dylan J is correct as he is a coach ... generic programs are generic programs... what mid to top athletes are getting top results with these sweetspot programs I have to ask ? A beginner will basically improve on any program ... also Dylan has never said no sweetspot or threshold ... Keegan mentions those endurance tempo zones ... many coaches are prescribing that.
Seems like trainer road will revamp the programs soon ? Coach got it wrong when he says and reference to the many hours that study showed 6 hrs and that is not hours and hours ... Anyways it is interesting the least.
www.trainerroad.com/adaptive-training/
;)
Well, yes and No.
Yes if You start off a relatively low fitness level. Then it’s really not complex at all. Steadily add volume and intensity and you will quickly increase fitness.
No, when you are close to your biological limits and in particular if you specialize in some particular discipline. No wonder you find very few (if any) world class riders that can do everything (then there are a few recent exceptions such as WVA, MVDP and Pidcock), but generally one needs to be very specific at a certain point to improve - and that specificity is individual - biological, training background and current fitness/plateau/progress. The basics will obviously still be the same but optimal training will still differ a lot between individuals
Seiler answered a viewer-submitted question on Sweet Spot in a recent video on his RUclips channel. Here’s the link: ruclips.net/video/StnxjISyeWg/видео.html
Happens around the 10:20 mark in the video. The question was something along the lines of “Is Sweet Spot an inherently different theoretical framework that is better for improving aerobic capacity, and how does it fit into the 80/20 model if at all?”
Notice that it’s already filled with that loaded ‘aerobic capacity’ term. Worth a watch to anybody interested in dissecting the true differences versus the differences that come from inconsistent translations.
Nate has better hair!
sub threshold
and lots of it
Chad never gives a straight answer. Lot of blabbering
You overextended the answer, it was boring and not very meaningful.
Stop constantly nodding when someone is speaking.
And dont interrupt to add nothing. Just let the guest speak.
I think the podcasts are great keep up the good work