Does too many Jedi surviving lessen the impact of Order 66? | And more questions...
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
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100 survivors compared to 10,000? That seems realistic in a massive Galaxy.
Damn you're early
And most of those got taken out by Vader and the Inquisitors
For once I agree with you Chaudhari. 100-200 Jedi still being around is still a tiny number and fraction in a galaxy of millions of habitable planets and trillions of sentients.
@ Even if there are a few around the time of ROTJ they are Jedi no longer and gave up the Jedi way. Luke was the only one actively being an actual Jedi so old EU or New Canon he was still the last one in that sense.
The irony is that this is the only way to save star wars from the sequel trilogy if you hate the sequel trilogy. If there are many other Jedi surviving, then Luke's failure isn't existential to the Jedi.
I always refer to George's quote on his plans for the sequel trilogy when this question gets brought up. “He (Luke) puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left. The Jedi have to grow again from scratch."
Maybe the idea that there were other Jedi around during the OT lessens the impact of Yoda's line in RotJ, but it's hard to argue with the creator himself on the matter.
One of the easiest things to do when it comes to Star Wars is argue with the creator, because there's a historical record and a well-defined paper trail that shows how many times he's revised things related to Star Wars. I'm probably taking liberties with what you wrote, when what you likely meant is that a creator can change things if he wants BECAUSE it's his creation. And that's fine. I agree with you ultimately.
But Lucas has had a habit of doing that and acting like it's what he meant all along out of some insecurity or to justify what he's doing. I honestly don't know why he does this. But it's a well established pattern. And beyond what his motives are or how he's gone about his revisions, I just think it's broken the world and fractured the fanbase, because it refuses to stick to its own rules. Lucas is free to change things. Even now that it doesn't legally belong to him.
If Lucas were to make some drastic change to the understood meaning of Star Wars...for the sake of argument, let's say it's that Ben secretly had children and his progeny are out there, I would agree that that is his right to amend or add to his own creation. But it doesn't mean I have to buy into it.
I’m 100% sure if Lucas made the sequels what you quoted would not be in the films.
@@Donnel4 even if Lucas himself devalued the story by having other Jedi survive, it still devalues the story.
You can’t have both the high stakes of Luke being the last Jedi and have dozens of other Jedi running around that are better trained than Luke without greatly reducing the stakes of the original trilogy.
Either way, the only two powerful enough to defeat vader were Luke and Leia. It does not lesson the impact of the line for me because of that.
@ But it still makes Yoda a liar. Which makes Lucas a liar. Because the line wasn't "When gone am I, the last of the people powerful enough to stop Vader and the Emperor will you be."
Sidious: *Lights a match.* "Alright, who's not dead! Sound off!"
*Many Jedi groaning in the distance.*
ATLANTIS!!!!!!❤
Half dead. You keep what you kill.
Jedi are strong in the art of not being seen...
@JerryHazard
They could be almost anywhere. They could be behind the wall, inside the water barrel, beneath a pile of leaves, up in the tree, squatting down behind the car, concealed in a hollow, or crouched behind any one of a hundred bushes. However we happen to know, they're in the water barrel.
*Explosion.*
To an extent, but I've never had an issue with a small number surviving on the outskirts of space, especially since many jedi were literally on the frontlines of the outer-rim sieges.
It’s less about the actual numbers and more about how many stories we get about surviving Jedi and how central they are to most of the new Disney shows.
It makes it feel like there are more Jedi after Order 66 than there were before it. 😂😂
@Lobsterwithinternet this is a great point. How many Jedi could I name from before Order 66? Its fewer than after Order 66. (I didn't watch Clone Wars)
@@GiggitygootwoYou clearly don’t know much about Star Wars then. As the introduced far more Jedi before Order 66 than survivors.
Most were either hunted down in the following decades or gave up being Jedi while in hiding
There were thousands of Jedi..... Obi and Yoda put out a message telling Jedi to stay away. So a good amount surviving and going into hiding would make sense. Most Jedi weren't strong enough to beat Vader or The Emperor. Anakin was renowned for his skills. Palp took on an entire brigade of Jedi when they came to arrest him. They really needed someone skilled who could match Anakin.
As far as Filoni and Ahsoka.....and love Ahsoka....but he's overused her. I didn't need her past CW, but I was fine with her in Rebels...but I didn't need mroe than that.
Oh yeah. Duh. Why did I forget that? I mean maybe he was too late, but that's a good point
@otysafiry Yeah know, I feel the same way. I don't need CW Ahsoka. Maybe this is a hot take, but she wasn't even that remarkable in more CW for me, as a girl. When she was in Rebels, she did have something going, because of her connection to Anakin. But she has almost no internal or spiritual conflict going on everywhere else.
One of the only reasons, Luke defeated Palp and Vader is his personal connection as Vader’s son. Vader has many times he can kill Luke in empire as well as ROTJ, but doesn’t because he’s his son. From what it shows Vader is not usually one to play with his food. Other Jedi probably wouldn’t last that long.
@ Yeah, Vader plays with Luke for sure in Empire. It's why Yoda and Obi told him not to go because he wasn't ready to face him, and in the end his friends didn't even need him...well....I guess they needed R2, lol. In Jedi Luke for sure had the advantage over Vader though, but they both held back trying to turn each other to the other side not wanting to kill each other.
Not only Order 66 but the increasing number of Jedi who (may) have survived up to and beyond the battle of Yavin, lessen the impact of Luke's story.
And also lessens the impact of Order 66 and makes Palpatine look dumb.
I don't believe so. Star Wars, the original takes place in a couple/few very localized places, with very few players. The galaxy is a huge place, with many inhabitants. Even the rebel alliance is only a fraction of population, as many didn't want to be involved.
Of the potential Jedi in hiding - I'd assume many would stay hidden and not be involved due to the beacon message Kenobi put out. There's a galaxy full of reasons why no other Jedi stepped up for the fights in ANH through ROTJ. It makes them clever - to remain in hiding - and illustrates how powerful and feared Palps was.
Not that I liked the show, but look how Kenobi was affected by it in the series. I think that was one of the things they got right. And he was a picture perfect master. I'd assume other lessor Jedi had a similar if not harder time coping, despite them not dealing with the Anakin situation like obi-wan.
I dunno, you make a good point though. Just another angle to consider.
It's a popular misconception that any jedi died during Order 66.
Jake Skywalker: "No one is ever really gone."
Clone trooper: "You mean I still have a shot with General Secura?"
Jake Skywalker: "Oh, no. She's dead."
It feels weird that the lightsaber builder droid hangs around Ahsoka, a travelling adventurer, rather than Luke, who's trying to set up a new order.
I got the impression that the Jedi didn't believe in the prophecy, and indeed had scepticism over any prophecy. "Chosen One? We don't need a chosen one, everything's going great." It wasn't until finding out about Maul that the Council decided to train up Anakin in case he was legit.
We need to differentiate between Sabine and Ezra versus characters like Ashoka, Obi-Wan, and Kanan. Now, if you want to debate Kanan and Ahsoka surviving Order 66, you can-but Sabine and Ezra are part of a new era. I wouldn’t really classify them as part of the Order 66 era.
The problem with Ahsoka is that she is seen working with the Rebels and surely then when Luke comes onto the scene she would hightail to train him and help the Son of her Former friend/Master. Unless of course we must interpret this as Ahsoka is a coward?
Not to mention all the other issues that a fully trained Jedi could fix.
Like for example: Why would Bail Organa need to send a message to Obi-Wan for help in episode 4 if he already has Ahsoka? Why would you need to get Obi-Wan to save Leia if you already have Ahsoka in Kenobi? And what about saving Princess Leia on the Death Star? Or destroying that shield generator on Endor?
@@Lobsterwithinternet Exactly it does not make Ahsoka look good.
She was stranded on Malachor until after RoTJ
@ So how did she get off the world then?
@@RomanHistoryFan476ADShe eventually found a ship. It’s like Dagobaugh not a system where many visitors come.
I don't mind like 50 jedi surviving Order 66. What I mind is more than ONE still being alive at the end of Return of the Jedi
Preach brother
Why? Luke needs to rebuild the Order from something.
I hate this logic. Just because luke is the last jedi doesnt mean hes the only one. And if hes going to rebuild the order, then no matter what hes not gonna be the last
9:21 what’s funny is in the Acolyte subreddit are a bunch of people who never watched anything Star Wars, loved that show and decided to jump on board.
As much as I didn’t enjoy it, I do make sure to welcome those fans on board.
I never liked the idea of all the Jedi being wiped out save for Obiwan and Yoda. I read a lot of EU books and during the opening hours I can imagine of the 10,000 only 1,000 survived the opening days, or there's people like Rahm Kota and Kazdan Paratus who didn't use clones in their armies. Maybe as time goes on it gets whittled down to 250 or 100 (I remember counting the amount of Jedi alive in the EU during Episode IV a long time ago. I remember the number is really small). As for it lessening Luke's impact, like you said they're off the grid and more focused on trying to stay alive doing maybe some small good deeds here and there, but not a lot are openly fighting the Empire. Heck I doubt the more experienced master still alive during Episode IV through VI probably don't know Luke exists until after the New Jedi Order was founded.
Kazdan did use Clones but he was a coward who fled the Jedi Temple at the first sign of trouble. Shaak Ti by contrast evacuated as many people as she could before hightailing it out of there.
Personally I've always gone with the idea that one to two hundred Jedi survived the Great Jedi Purge...at first. Once Darth Vader and the other Dark Side enforcers began hunting them down, most of those surviving Jedi were killed with a few joining the Dark Side to survive. The remaining few either gave up and lived normal lives or remained in hiding.
Even if you had 500 Jedi survivors (which is my head-canon tbh) in the immediate aftermath of Operation Knightfall that’s still only 5% of the Jedi Order surviving. And as another comment said, the Jedi don’t stop getting hunted by the Empire after Order 66 is executed. The GCW is also a 25 year long conflict (factoring in the gap between ROTS and ANH) so even if, for example, a padawan survived Order 66 and was alive by the end of ROTJ, they would be roughly mid-thirties. That’s not even counting any older Jedi who probably escaped, disappeared, and died of old age.
The people who think more Jedi surviving Order 66 is something that “breaks the impact of ROTS” fail to take the numbers into account.
Also, Obi-wan and Yoda being the only survivors was, and is, stupid.
It's possible, but I don't think we're there yet. A few dozen out of ten thousand is realistic. And it gives the Inquisitors something to hunt besides random rebels.
But if it climbed to 5% or more of Jedi surviving, it would start to do narrative damage. And feel like uninspired writing.
Not mention the inquisitors were fallen Jedi.
You survived Order 66 and YOU survived Order 66 and YOU survived Order 66... EVERYBODY SURVIVED ORDER 66!!
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Imagine if the entire Jedi Order survived Order 66 and all hid as a joke.
It might be realistic that 100 or so survived, but it absolutely lessens the story impact because they're the only ones we see
I always thought it was ridiculous that 99% of the Jedi died during Order 66. That's impossibly high.
There were 10,000 Jedi during the prequels. Only about 100 survived. Is Disney even keeping count how many original jedi survived. Luke was the last of the Jedi who still believed in the philosophy and the cause. If there were any left they weren’t traditional Jedi who probably gave up on the order or died out. It cheapens the impact of the purge each time a survivor keeps popping up.
Agreed
It almost feels like there were more Jedi after Order 66 than before it which I find hilarious.
Just imagine Vader killing Jedi and everyone that he sliced in half turned into two.
1:00 - I always thought that Jedi having left the order or whatever was kind of a copout, especially since Revenge of the Sith showed us that Yoda would know if there are other Jedi still in the galaxy whether they turned in their membership card or not.
Not to mention if the Rebels had the support of former Jedi in their ranks.
Its more important how many lived during the time of the OT, instead of how many survived Order 66. Obiwan said Jedi were hunted down, not that they were all killed in single day. But many Jedi being alive when Obi and Yoda says Luke is their only hope is a problem. Where was Ahsoka during the OT?
Trapped on Malachor V and presumed dead. She had no contact with Yoda or Kenobi since the Clone Wars.
Over 200 in the EU and that to me wasn't a problem. To me 'The Dark Times' era should involve at least around 50 or so Jedi being hunted down by Vader/Inquisitors.
In legends wasn’t there like 50 inquisitors or something? All of whom were former Jedi. Some of them survived post endor if I remember correctly. And then there was another 200 Jedi who didn’t join the empire.
I’ve always felt the more Jedi that are discovered sort of undermine the importance of Luke Skywalker during the original trilogy. It’s Just my personal humble opinion
I agree. It’s not unlike the problem Star Wars has with keeping characters dead.
I don’t really think it does. What sets Luke apart from all those other Jedi is he’s there fighting the Empire. Others were still in hiding or off doing their own thing.
The problem isnt "too many" but that its overused.
"Lets write another story about a jedi survivor!"
Like ffs the new kylo ren comic is going to literally be him hunting surviving jedi. Copy/paste if vaders comic story
I don't think the problem is how many jedi survived, but which Jedi survived. In Legends, most of the Jedi that survived Order 66 were Padawans and other low ranking Jedi. Jedi which the Emperor would not cared about or been as concerned with hunting down due to how little threat they posed, so it's no big deal if they survived. With canon it's reversed, where a lot of the Jedi that survived were prominent or high ranking members of the order like masters, in some cases even members of the high council, like Oppo Rancissis. Jedi which would have the potential to do some serious damage if allowed to group up with rebel factions.
These are Jedi you'd figure would have been at the top of the Emperor's list of Jedi to be killed first, so the fact that so many of the Jedi that actually mattered were allowed to slip away makes Order 66 seem not as effective as it should have been and makes the Empire look very incompetent, even though the same amount survived in both canon and Legends. It sticks out more in canon because of the rank and notoriety of the Jedi that survived.
Yes it does!
A few survivors outside of Yoda and Obi Wan is fine. But it gets ridiculous when you get into dozens of survivors.
The Jedi were completely blindsided. There shouldn’t have been many survivors.
@@Flaris well that’s assuming they’re like- all in one place, or in the perfect place to be killed. Palpatine always planned for the order but not specifically when. It just so happened he was discovered before (I’m sure) he could kill them all in one place at the same time. But it just so happens he was attacked before hand, some Jedi would easily be out of range from any attack by the clones, some would goto the temple with the news sure, but kenobi sent that message warning all survivors. Who knows how many there were. The new stories explore that. I don’t think it’s a problem.
@@GojoGunningBut then it brings up the question of why they are considered legends and myths if they're still that numerous.
@@Lobsterwithinternet cause like kenobi they’re beaten down and lost, they have no clue where to even begin, and the ones that try are always killed in the end, but that’s what it takes, and Jedi like Kanan Jarus or ‘Dume’ understood that. That’s why he fought. Not everyone acts and thinks the same. Even the Jedi which is shown in a lot of Star Wars media. Think about it, why would the Jedi want to be known about? It would be detrimental to their survival. Try and look at things like this from all aspects and approaches.
@@GojoGunning But most of the galaxy was alive during the Clone Wars and it would be a boon for Palpatine to advertise how many Jedi are still around, justifying anything he wanted to do in the name of finding them.
@@Lobsterwithinternet this galaxy somehow forgot about the sith even though they waged many wars against the republic and committed countless atrocities, I'm not surprised they would forget the jedi too, there were likely already a lot of people in poor places who thought the jedi were myths and legends when they still existed, when that suddenly becomes the government narrative they would have no problem believing it
My issue is that most of the survivors are characters that we know of, like Barrie, Ahsoka, gungi etc, I almost guarantee u that if the clone wars came out before ROTS most of the council would have survived
Jedi surviving is not that bad logically, the galaxy is a big place. If a Jedi was just in another room at the moment 66 was ordered he'd stand a decent chance at survival from that alone. Jedi surviving up to beyond ep6 DOES however lesson the impact of 66, the Inquisitors, the empire and the rebellion/ Luke Skywalker himself all in one stroke
(cough)Dave Filoni(cough)
Yes.
And if you want to say oh its a big galaxy, and there are a lot of them, it doesn't really matter because 99% of the Jedi were either in one centralized location, or with clone batallions who, even if the clones failed to surprise kill the Jedi, it would instantly give the Empire a trail of yours to chase.
More would've survived, especially with Padawans like Caleb Dume being protected by their master so they could escape.
And the Sith extinction/prophecy question is great, and makes Ki Adi Mundi's comment idiotic and arrogant.
All of the Jedi running around in Disney Star Wars contradicts the Original Trilogy and makes a liar out of Yoda. Yoda said Luke was literally the last Jedi. "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." There's no room for interpretation there. As far as Jedi surviving Order 66, based on what Ben tells Luke, there's reason to believe Jedi survived the initial Clone slaughter of Jedi and Vader hunted them down. That's what we all grew up thinking based on those few lines of dialogue anyway.
Sure but Lucas supposed sequels had like 50-100 surviving jedi join Luke to rebuild the order
In canon, legends, and GL’s “sequels” all had surviving jedi
@@keepmovingforward1722 What sequels? Have any official details ever been released on those?
Regardless, George Lucas is a revisionist. And that's fine. They're his creations. I question the choice to continue the story beyond Return of the Jedi from a storytelling perspective, but, again, it's not my creation and my opinion is just my own. But I'm a child of the OT era. That IS Star Wars. And if you want buy-in from people who grew up with the originasl, you can't keep changing things and hand-waving objections away. It's lazy and dishonest storytelling.
@@willied9451 which is why i said “supposed” and also put sequels in quotation marks
@ Then I'm not sure what the intention of your initial comment was. "Sure but" implies you disagree with what I wrote.
To be clear about what I was asking in my reply, I meant what sequels are you talking about? The treatments Lucas gave to KK and Iger? Did he or anyone official ever say there would be 50-100 Jedi running around post ROTJ? Regardless, I believe you if you say that's the case. It sounds like something GL would do. I just think it's bad storytelling at the end of the day.
a single fight at geonosis was considered a devastating blow to the jedi when there were only about 300 of them there including knights and padawans.
Rebels and Rogue One are the only flawless star wars projects, in my opinion.
*Andor looking at you*
@Lobsterwithinternet I love Andor. I just don't think it's flawless.
What a coincidence, unabridged version of Dark Lord of the Sith dropped into Audible earlier this week. And it's about a group of Jedi who are trying to escape the Empire
To be fair…that book takes places weeks after RotS
You'll never convince me that anything that takes place after Revenge Of The Jedi is anything but fan fiction. At the end of Return Of The Jedi there was only one Jedi left. Luke. This made the purge of the Jedi very meaningful because any other Jedi that would exist would have to be trained by Luke.
Not to mention that it would make us wonder why they aren't helping Luke against the Empire.
I am reading Dark Lord The Rise Of Darth Vader which is set just after Revenge Of The Sith and even Palpatine says that a good amount most likely survived Order 66 and they are no threat to him and Vader.
Oh I love that book. I find the Jedi's hypocrisy in defying the last orders of the Council to gather and form a resistance, because they're too attached to the Jedi Order when the Jedi philosophy is learning to let go, particularly great.
The biggest crime the Clone Wars committed was not letting dead characters stay dead. It devalued the story as a whole.
You talking about Darth Maul? Cuz that’s the only thing I can think of
@@Juan-o6h2bMore like Ahsoka.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Wdym? She never died in that show
@@Juan-o6h2b She did die off-screen on Malachor against Darth Vader.
She only survived because Filoni invented Time Travel to save his OC.
@@LobsterwithinternetShe never died you clearly see her in the final montage traveling back underground.
Hey Thor, regarding order 66. Have you ever thought about the series of events from receiving the command "Execute Order 66" to the events of A New Hope when Tarkin is convinced there are no more Jedi?
-In my head I see the initial wave taking out several thousand Jedi in the first day.
-Another couple thousand over the next few weeks who escaped that initial blast, but didn't get far enough off of the planets they were trapped on.
-Less than a thousand more over the next few years as the Jedi went into hiding and/or were dumb enough to fight back.
-The Inquisitors and Purge Troopers are created a couple years after the order and, with the help of Vader, hunt down thousands more Jedi.
-We're down to less than 200 remaining who ever trained in the Jedi Academy by the time SW Rebels takes place. Nearly all of them have no fight left in them, no contact between them, and just trying to live whatever life they have carved out for themselves.
Vader at some point leaves the Grand Inquisitor in command and the purge troopers are eventually disbanded due to "lack of work" (which could be why they are not used in SW Rebels).
The short answer is yes, but if we're talking 100 out of 10.000, then the,answer is: "Niemals!!"
seems really plausible that many would survive
Then why don't they all just attack Palpatine at once and kill him?
Shouldn’t more have found each other and formed a new Order? You’re telling me the Jedi didn’t have a protocol for this? A hundred isn’t entirely insignificant, and there are continuously more Force users being born/awakened. The Jedi could’ve had a nice army within a generation, if aided by the Rebellion
What I was thinking.
Could have all gone into Wildspace and rebuilt an new Order with the help of the surviving Seperatists.
And yet, the best SW so far has been Andor, a show with no Jedi.. They are not needed, they are however and will always be a part of the universe.
Exactly, but the EU and Disney have an unhealthy obsession with having Jedi pop up in everything.
It takes away from their special and mystical status if you can't read a story without tripping over a survivor of Order 66.
I feel it does because Luke was supposed to be the last jedi
Its fine, we've just had so many stories about surviving jedi that it makes it feel a little over played. I love Cal Kestis and his story so It's not like I don't want these stories to be told or anything.
I've heard a complaint from another direction. Heard some people who took the line from Obi about Vader helping the empire hunt and kill the Jedi as meaning Vader personally took care of all of them. Therefore I've seen people mad that there were 10 thousand when in their minds, there were only a couple of dozen Jedi and vader killed them all personally.
Use Hayen Christiansen to make a series of him hunting Jedi and flashing back to his interactions with them in the Prequels and Clone Wars. You can even have him hunting the rumor of Mace Windu and sort of give the fans the return of Mace they want albeit in a flashback.
I hate that whole Order 66 part of the story, so I'm glad as many Jedi survived as possible.
I never had a problem with a fair number of the Jedi surviving Order 66; the problem arises if you have a fair number of them having survived the efforts of Vader and the inquisitors to track them down in all the years between episodes III and IV. But you could have a few simply by remembering that neither Yoda or Obi-Wan were infallible; they may well have believed there was no one else left.
It actually always felt weird to me that very few Jedi survived in the Legends timeline. It makes sense that in a huge galaxy of millions of systems, a good number of Jedi would have survived.
It's more that we have way too many stories during that era that conveniently have Jedi in them when they should all be in hiding.
I suppose the way I saw the death of the entire jedi order is that Palpatine was that good.
Thanks for the answer Thor, I agree a well executed Jedi story could get everyone's attention again. Jedi were basically the superpowered heroes that built the franchise.
Edit: Also the issue with too many Jedi surviving is how none of them appear or are even hinted at in the entire OT. Personally I think Anakin should have turned to the darkside by episode 2, making ep3 about him as Vader wiping out the remaining Jedi.
The idea that every single jedi was wiped out was always an idea that seemed far too absurd to even consider. Not mention it wasn't even true with Obi and Yoda surviving all those years, considering how skilled the jedi are, just "taking them by surprise" with order 66 isn't enough to get all of them. And yeah, the inquisitors hunted down more after order 66 but by then they'd gone into hiding. 100 surviving jedi seems a reasonable number of survivors and in a galaxy of trillions upon trillions of lives across hundreds of thousands of planets, that's not just looking for a needle in a haystack, that's looking for a specific grain of sand in the sahara.
And I think the idea of it "reduces the importance of Luke's presence" in the story is also patently absurd. Yes, there were other jedi out there who could've fought, but only Luke could save the galaxy because he's Vader's son. That connection is what changed Vader, no other jedi could've made him turn to the light again. We saw this with Obi-wan, with Ahsoka, even they couldn't turn him, only Luke.
Does this discussion include anything about statistics?
Remember Obi was able to change the message at the Jedi temple to keep jedis away. That alone should’ve saved a lot of jedis from order 66
I never really had a problem with this concept in the old EU, and I never saw much criticism of it then. So when I saw this come up a lot as if it was something new in the new canon, I found that a little strange. I think it’s pretty realistic that some survived.
No, what bothers me is any Jedi being alive during Return of the Jedi. Yoda saying to Luke he is the last Jedi lessens that impact greatly imo.
Well Yoda assumed Luke was the last one. He didn’t know there were more still alive.
@@achaudhari101No. both Kenobi and Yoda were like this boy is our only hope. No way there were other Jedi around during the OT.
@ More lore says otherwise.
@@achaudhari101That lore contradicts the films, hence isn't canon.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Which Lucas didn’t object to.
Just thought I’d point out my dominos order last night was order 66 lol
I feel it would be weirder if more didn't survive
Like, you have a bunch of highly trained and powerful warriors
In a gigantic space galaxy
It's already hard enough to kill of the entirety of 1 singular body of people
But in this scenario it'd be more unrealistic for other jedi to not survive and hide
Especially if any of them start questioning their morals or abandon their ideals to survive
Given that theres ~10000 jedi at their peak during the clone wars, give or take given that many likely die due to the war, Its not crazy to say that more than simply 2 survived. From an in universe standpoint it being THAT level of effective is unrealistic as there will always be some that slip through the cracks. It just happens to be that Obi Wan and Yoda are the only real council members or masters who survived. And likely by the time Luke is of age either Obi Wan and Yoda didn't know about many of these, or believed they were already dead or lost contact with in the cases of people like Ahsoka or Kanan. Being off the grid or as you put it, not exactly trying to stop the empire.
Only having a few hundred, if that, survive absolutely doesn't take away from the initial main 2 from the OT. You're gonna obviously come up with characters and stories much later than the OT was written from a real world perspective and in most cases its explained well enough as to why they survive or how.
I think the only reason this is a talking point is because of the confusing scale when Star Wars stories are being told. On one hand, we have trillions of lifeforms on a single planet, like Coruscant, but on the other hand we are only ever told stories that make the universe feel like a small medieval town. If we are being told a story with a universe that takes into account an entire galaxy worth of lifeforms, it's completely understandable that 100s if not thousands of jedi could have survived order 66. But because the only stories we are being told about Star Wars now-a-days make the universe feel small, it feels weird to think about how a greater number of jedi could have survived order 66 than the entire individual lifeform count in the tv show or movie we are watching.
For instance, the entire movie of The Last Jedi only consisted of 120 "extras" beyond the main characters. If the only stories I'm being told consist of groups of people that, at most, are 100 or so large, the ratio of having 100 jedi still be alive doesn't feel right.
YES
10:25 i think rebels is a good example of this. The biggest complaints at the time of rebels was art style and lack of grit (deaths and violence) TCW showed prior to disney acquisition.
So long as a series (id hold off on live action and just do another *good* animated one) can do the hero’s journey and show enough character development (regardless of timeline) i think it works.
Rebels was still good, not as much as tcw in the finals stretch, but still good. Tales of the jedi was good (albeit using a timeframe and characters we already knew) but i think a good story about the jedi/struggle of good v evil and not a “defund the police” story will reinvigorate ppl to believing in another SW project.
I think the only thing that “hinders” the OT imo is ahsoka living thru the timeline.
While i get jedis like Cal or Kanan doing the rebellion type of work but not out there aiming to take out vader or palps. Its odd ahsoka of all ppl doesnt feel she needs to do anything.
Like ok she “dies” the first time around before ezra’s meddling. But after that-theres literally a fricken kid names skywalker trying to be a hero. I kinda figure thats enough reason for her to stop being a shadow/side character and be a lead character or if not a lead mentor to Luke.
So that kinda comes off as weird. Outside of that, it does make sense for other jedi to reemerge after lukes victory because it shows they have a place now in the galaxy. Where as before the boogeyman wouldve hunted them down immediately.
"And now the Jedi are but extinct..."
One of Obi-Wan's many lies!
Perhaps, as far as Obi Wan and Yoda knew, there really was no other Jedi left in the galaxy, or at least any that could/would be able to take on Vader and Palpatine.
As for Ahsoka and Ezra, my head-canon says that, as Ezra is now back in the SW galaxy, he is eventually killed, perhaps in Ben/Kylo's destruction of Luke's Jedi academy/praxeum, while as Ahsoka is in another galaxy, she and Sabine never make it back.
In the TRoS scene where all the Jedi call out to Rey, we do hear Ahsoka, and it is said that she is already dead by this time, but perhaps she is able to convey her thoughts through the Force.
7:10 Just reading triple zero now, past halfway few days ago and loving these books so far. Hoping the other 3 keep it up.
Ahsoka is too powerful and effective Jedi for the Empire not to have a concerted effort to destroy. The empire would not let her slide and unlike Yoda, she was not trying to hide her force signature for all to see.
Funny how in the EU there were a lot of Jedi who survived. When 'canon' has a number of Jedi surviving into the og trilogy, now its a problem.
Imho having surving jedi kind of makes for some really cool story telling opportunities, Disney has yet to actually do anything good with this, but i like the idea that after order 66 most of the jedi just kind of die either because even if you did some how kill every clone trying to kill you you were likely ether abandoned on a near empty space ship with no where to go, left alone on a planet with droids that wanted to kill you or somehow needed to find a way to make money starting from nothing.
The few jedi who did try to fight back and resist were most likely killed or hunted down and the ones that weren't likely just gave up being a jedi, like Yoda.
I do think the inquisitors breaks the cannon and devalues the jedi stuff because they are near incompetent, always fighting each other for no reason.
Better than the estimate for the surviving clones at least. There used to be millions of them.
Its to the point it would be harder to find a Clone than it would be to find a Jedi.
Rey doing the Jedi again doesn't make sense considering she buried the lightsabers, unless since they are the weapons of the Jedi they'll just train with the Force, maybe the theme there was no guns
Pretty sure most of them survived, actually. We just haven't heard all their stories yet. And most of the ones that were supposedly killed probably actually survived in one way or another. We'll get comics or Disney Plus series about most of them eventually. There were basically a half dozen chosen ones and hundreds of last Jedi.
Leia is as well mentioned in 3rd movie as a force sensitive which means Yoda always been wrong since the original trilogy
5:24. It is also pretty insulting that rather than consider what kinds of shows women love and adapting that kind of story into the SW universe, they instead tried adapting a woman into the original kind of story Star Wars was while artificially attaching it superficially to the skywalker story & ruining that(the skywalker family story*) in the process.
(I assert this is ruined because Rey wasn't even adopted, making every Skywalker dead in the end so if you think about their Saga being told by a future generation even if Reylo happens it is a hell of a swerve to talk about great Uncle Luke saving his father then everything going to shit as he failed to kill Rey's baby daddy or Palpatine, Grandpa was killed by daddy Ben, then Leia was betrayed by most of the Republic and died, while Luke was killed just buying time for so few people with ships.
I mean it’s an ENTIRE galaxy! I can’t imagine being sure they killed all the Jedi on a single planet let alone the entire universe! The numbers game alone makes it silly for them to assume they were all gone.
Before Order 66 the Jedi were numbered in the 10,000s, had a stronghold on the central planet of the Galaxy and we're leading an army.
After Order 66 the Jedi are scattered across the galaxy, there's maybe 50 of them and they have lost all military support and resources that they had.
Order 66 removed 99% of the power the Jedi had in the prequel era
Legend had alot actually survived too since the clones didn't have the chips, the one who fix that was vader. Meanwhile, disney always gonna add another jedi/fallen despite how they wipe out MORE than the legend, they need those lightsabers since they been training the audience to only care for lightsaber
Yes
I think that could potentially be a problem, but I also think it's a little odd to see so few Jedi or Force users after Return of the Jedi in the current continuity.
Hey Thor,
We often talk about characters aligning with the light or dark side of the force, but what about places and planets? If falling to the dark side of the force means becoming unbalanced, how does a planet, (like Dagobah for example), become strong in the dark side of the force, or vice versa? How would living in a dark side place affect individuals? Would all but those trained in the ways of the force, such as Yoda, become corrupted by the dark side? Would society at large on a dark side planet become disharmonious, populated with untrusting and selfishly motivated people? And if this is true, would the opposite of living on a world strong in the light also be true?
Thanks in advance if you read this
Seems like Star Wars Underworld wouldve been the closest thing to Andor that Lucas would have made, and the test footage for it back from 2010(?) feels pretty similar. Though i agree it probably would not have been as intense as Andor.
There could have been 1000 Jedi present for ROTJ, but none of them posed the threat Luke did, thus doesn't lessen his impact. If those 1000 jedi mattered at all Vader and Palpatine wouldn't still be in power, would they? Luke was told he is their only hope because Yoda and ben knew he's the last best chance at conflicting Anakin and causing him to run back thus defeating the Emperor. None of that happens without Luke.
I find it very funny how people always like to say what Ben and Yoda have said is the 100% truth, especially when they spout things like "from a certain point of view". I've got no problem if a hand full survived up to that point, especially since they would all be in hiding and it would make sense for them to possibly show up after the Empire falls to seek out Luke if for no other reason than curiosity. Now I'm not saying that Ahsoka should have survived this long due to her several run ins with Vader and Inquisitors and only being a Padawan herself. but being an exile would have gave her the "out" she needed to stay hidden, but she didn't. Kanan could have also lived long enough to train Ezra, but IMO Ezra's not a Jedi and Kanan is still a Padawan with limited training. Just as Cal is. So one of them were going to make a difference against the Empire, but they could help Luke rebuild the order as well as assist in finding new recruits. "Force users" that are likely still being born after order 66 right up to ROTJ. Sad that that won't ever be explored, or ever get the likes of Katarn or Jade..
Well it is inevitably that fans would compare Old EU to Disney Canon and be like "why did we got this crap instead of the previous one?"
I get around 100+ could've survived for sure. It is getting old though when they keep showing order 66 survivors. Not very interesting to be honest.
And what if those survivors were part of the 100 that were not killed?
Hey Thor, would you say that Star Wars is always at its best when it is at its darkest, focusing on the war aspects instead of the lighter family friendly aspects?
Excellent question.
Yes. The reason disliked Skeleton Crew.
It may sell to people who will forget star wars in 3 months. But like all things that burns right it as well burns out people.
Even in the EU there were Jedi that survived the Purge. But this isn't just confined to Star Wars. Look at Superman, he was supposed to be the only surviving Krypontonian but there is a whole flipping city of em.
But that's more to do with comic book writing and writing a character for almost 100 years.
Even more Jedi 'survived' in Legends. They survived by ceasing to be Jedi and becoming rebels or bounty hunters or simply settling down and having families. The rest who didn't were hunted down and were killed or became inquisiters. With 10k Jedi even 200 surviving would be expected. Yoda was being a bit hyperbolic and encouraging Luke in his words. It has already been established by this point that Yoda wasn't exactly the most honest of frogs.
Looks like they only got a small handful. We must go into hiding Obi-Wan
Heh - just started reading Republic Commando - really enjoying it
To begin with (and end with) order 66 could only, at best, eliminate every Youngling, Padowan, Knight and Master that existed at the time the order was executed. A whole generation of force sensitives were born and secretly trained during the 20 yrs between the eps III & IV. Too many surviving the intitial purge added to all the new force sensitives IS a problem for Palpatine's plan. He planned to annihilate the jedi so they were out of the equation. Guess Sideous could not Force See (get it? Foresee?) his plan's inevitable demise, let alone simply engaging some critical thinking into his ultimate plan.
There could be 1,000 survivors and that's still only a 10% survival rate, and that's if there really was only 10,000 and that not just being an estimate.
Well, I’m still a little confused but thanks for trying, Thor!
Vader should have mastered the YMM, would have cut those numbers in half.
Means the hunt was even more insane.
200 Jedi out of 10,000 is fine for me
To me it's not so much about Jedi surviving the initial Order 66 purge, that seems fine, my problem is when Jedi survive long enough to the time of Return of the Jedi. The point is that Luke is supposed to be the last one after Yoda dies
I've always felt that Star Wars has a timeline issue and the ever-increasing roster of Jedi that survived Order 66 highlights that. We know because of how old Luke is in episode 4 that the fall of the Republic and the Jedi is roughly twenty years, but some of the verbiage used, especially by Alec Guinness, gives the impression of a timeline of events twice as long. I think if the timeline was longer then all these surprise Jedi would be fine as the Empire would have plenty of time to wipe them out and bring order to the galaxy. The biggest issue is that those Jedi have to die or be so wounded as to be useless. If not, then it paints the Jedi in a bad light. With only a twenty-year reign it makes sense to wipe out the Jedi within the first few years of the Empire to drive home what we see in A New Hope is the status quo. Otherwise, wouldn't people be talking about the Jedi as terrorists or freedom fighters rather than something out of legend?