The History of PROG in 60 albums | Part 2 ORIGINS | 1966-69
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
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Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College
Just a shout out of Procol Harum's second album in 1968, Shine on Brightly because of In Held Twas I. Must be the first prog epic.
Yes! The music showed a classical influence as it did on their debut LP and Keith Reid was writing great prog lyrics. But, as you mention, In Held 'Twas in I is an early example of a prog suite, that Genesis would later love so well.
Yes! They were an awesome band, much overlooked. Their lyrics were the best.
@@stevehoran5595 Genesis mentioned Procol Harum as a big influence.
Right from the beginning Procol Harum were bringing in classical influences, Bach basically wrote whiter shade of pale for them, Mathew Fisher's organ, Keith Reid's sureal lyrics and then with Trower coming in with heavy blues guitar. Each album had a distinct theme and feel. Can there be a band with a more proggy name than Procol Harum?
In 1970 Tom Kingsley sat me down and made me listen to Dylan, the Velvet Underground and Frank Zappa, all of which I was vaguely familiar with but I couldn't afford records. Thank you Tom. In 1972 I brought him Mahavishnu and he brought me Return to Forever. By now I was becoming a competent guitar player through sheer ignorance. "It's all blues to me" I would say. Of course there were brave radio DJs who would play all of Desolation Row. I visited Don Van Vliet in his North Hollywood home in 1969 because my friend Bill was following the Captain's L.A. tour supporting Trout Mask and taking excellent pictures of the band and Don wanted to choose photos from the proof sheets. I was introduced to Winged Eel Fingerling, guitarist for the Magic Band (one of them) who grunted in acknowledgement. Elliott (Winged Eel) moved into this apartment building in the late nineties. Her moved out in 2017. He is the grumpiest human I have ever met. The Captain gave me six of his paintings, now worth about 50-100 grand apiece. I left the paintings on my wall when I freaked and moved to an island. No regrets, right?
Never mind the Progometer, I'm going to have a aesthetic drinking game !
Yes, Floyd are Prog for me .
I’m grateful that you are making these videos in defense of our genre. Good work well done. Enjoyable listen too. Thanks
Pink Floyd 100% prog in my book .. all hail the Progometer! 😊.. great episode as always and looking forward to the remainder .. your videos are so informative , basically a history lesson in prog .. great stuff
Beach Boys Pet Sounds released May 16, 1966 is incredibly influential for Prog. The way Brian's studio work and the creativity of instrumentation on pop songs. Critics and fans did not like or understand the album when it was first released-that is also very prog.
Good call...Pet Sounds is a milestone in popular music. Progressive indeed.
Agreed. ‘Smile’ too.
I was gonna bring this up! You are absolutely right! And it all eventually led to Brian's masterpiece that is "Smile"! Amazing prog album!
Laura Nyro's revolutionary art pop masterpiece Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (March, 1968) satisfies almost all of the progometer, but its pop, not rock. Nyro "probably influenced more successful songwriters than anyone " Elton John, 2007.
I was going to mention this to Andy but you all beat me to it.
The Beatles US Capitol Records Rubber Soul was the catalyst that inspired Brian Wilson to compose Pet Sounds because he thought of RS as the perfect Folk Pop album. He wasn’t aware of the Parlophone release that opened with Drive My Car yet.
The Beatles listen to Pet Sounds and they love it but Paul McCartney becomes so enamored with it he decides they need to come up with something even more advanced and that’s Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.
Most people believe that without Pet Sounds there probably wouldn’t have been a Sgt. Pepper.
Fair choices. Of course, it is impossible to mention all the many groundbreaking albums from the 60's. Your video, your rules :) Important pre- or truly progressive albums from late 60's that come to my mind are: Pet Sounds by Beach Boys (1966), Parable of the Arable Land by Red Krayola (1967), White Light/White Heat by Velvet Underground (1968), Monster Movie by Can (1968), and The United States of America (1968). Looking forward to watching the next videos.
It's official. The Progometer is the law! This is a lot more fun than those Ken Burns efforts!
Love it!! Pink Floyd are Prog! Agreed
Piper at the Gates of Dawn is a chapter title from The Wind in the Willows
Mr. Toad, Mr. Toad, Mr. Toad...
I'm glad you put "The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack" it often forgotten.
prog youtube is when the comments grow and grow even before the video has aired
So exciting
Not often do you see Trout Mask Replica mentioned in prog rock histories....and you definitely NEVER see Metal Machine Music! Excited for the rest of this series.
I think it really helps to view Genesis' first album with the understanding that they weren't originally trying to be their own band, but a songwriting collective for other artists. Which is why you hear echos of 60's Bee Gees or early Deep Purple. Jonathan King really pushed them into being a band and making an album. It was on their second album that they really started to create their own sound.
Agree. Ummagumma is a prog masterpiece, underrated even by David Gilmour himself...!
The Prog-O-Meter goes into the red over Pink Floyd - very funny. You forgot the 'Animals' lit ref to George Orwell, AND, 'Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun' for the Sci-Fi ref - although you were imrpovising. Nice one, Andy! Cheers, Ian
one additional must on your list:
Vanilla Fudge.....Beat Goes On
They took two steps up the ladder with it
Highly entertaining! Love that your correctly championing Zappa, as none of my mates are into his music. Looking forward to the rest of the journey, consider me along for the ride.
Glad you enjoyed!
29:12-literary allusions in Pink Floyd lyrics: Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem called Us and They. So, it can be argued that Us and Them by Pink Floyd is a literary allusion to an earlier text. The Progometer never lies.
Hi. ... I'm Andy Edwards and I'm the Mercian in the band..... Hungry Freaks Daddy is the first modern rock guitar solo and the album was recorded in November 1965
We need to turn your Progometer into a listening app! I'm sure their is a Prog nerd watching this with the technical know-how to realize this desperately needed tool! I'm confident it would be worthy of a Nobel prize!!!
Ok Andy, you won me over. I just subscribed. I'm a nerdy 62 yr old anglophile from NY. I've been checking out the channel for weeks. You made me break out my fusion cds I haven't listening for years. May I add another big US band which kinda fall under prog, the Grateful Dead. Early Dead stretch out psychedelic jams, not all about "picking up chicks", using all kinds of genres etc...Blues for Allah, Wake of the Flood and particularly Terrapin Station are not standard rock & roll. Something to consider, maybe run them througj the Prog-meter, lets see...
Just starting to work my way through this series after watching the Jazz series over recent days.
It strikes me that once the Beatles encounter Dylan, they become proto Prog.
Paperback Writer has to be seminal. I can imagine Yes basing a triple album on this one song.
Great videos Andy! Loving your History of PROG. For me, The Zombies' "Odessey and Oracle" (recorded June to August 1967 and released in April 1968) ticks a lot of the boxes of your PROGOMETER. Listening to this album in recent times, I hear a direct connection from The Zombies to the late 60's progressive Beatles sound - through to early 70's Genesis. And that mellotron! Sublime, awesome album, well worth delving into for anyone not yet familiar with it.
Sci-fi elements of the PFloyd sound: 'interstellar overdrive', 'set the controls for the heart of the sun' and their out-there jamming which a key part of their sound till, arguably, Dark side of the Moon. Floyd practically started the whole space rock thing in Europe of the early 1970s.
I like what I call 'prog', which is the music when it became an actual identifiable genre ~ but that didn't really happen during the 1960s. In the 60s, it was progressive rock and precisely what I liked about the progressive ideal in the 60s is that it wasn't a genre as such, it hadn't fallen prey to the cliches that are highlighted by a 'prog-o-meter'. Which kind of means that there was much more experimentation {sometimes very hit or miss}, bands were feeling their way through and towards _something_ but it wasn't clear what that something was. The same thing was happening in jazz fusion and heavy metal rock. Some tremendous progressive rock albums from the 60s are "Saucerful of Secrets" by Pink Floyd, "Methuselah" by Methuselah, "Ceremony" by Spooky Tooth and Pierre Henry and "If only for a moment" by Blossom Toes. Some of these albums also have songs that sit on the cusp of latter-day psychedelia {I'd throw "Together With Him" by the Moonrakers in there too}, showing its importance on the development of progressive rock.
So I'm going to say something sacreligious to a progger ~ I don't regard "In the Court of the Crimson King" as the ground zero of prog that it is given credit for being. It's a wonderful album and I love it to bits {well, 3½ of its songs, anyway} and it is unique ~ but the same can be said for much of the progressive rock that preceded it. Crimson collapsed within less than a year of the release of the album and although some of the other progressive bands were hugely influenced by that album, in truth, progressive outfits simply did after "In the Court..." what they had been doing prior to it ~ being influenced by each other and current edgy trends in rock and feeling their way towards something. And the big guns {Yes, Genesis, Tull, ELP etc} as well as the not-so-big guns like Floyd eventually hit their stride and became stylized.
Listening to Crimson's debut, they come across to me like a supercharged version of Family on their debut. That's not to give Family great credit, or to denigrate King Crimson. I think that sometimes, we look back at history too much from a 'today' perspective, which is natural, but not always helpful.
ANDY good comment .the audience wants our minds blown.well put & tru e...
Thanks for this Andy, it's great. I was talking about prog just last week in my lecture on 70s culture for my Modern History module at the University of Chichester. The students were definitely interested in it!
Fan from Kidderminster here. Really enjoy your videos Andy. I’ve learnt loads. Very interested in the English aesthetic. Loving the ‘progometer’. Great stuff.
My music guru as a young teenager had a simple definition of Prog.
"Prog is Rock Plus"
So, rock plus classical, rock plus jazz, rock plus world music, rock plus avant-garde
This was very cool Andy. And yes Pink Floyd was definitely prog and also psychedelic. Thanks also for the slight mention of the European aesthetic. I hope in future videos in this series you will at least touch on sub genres like krautrock which to me has always seemed like a mixture of progressive, psychedelic and even some jazz fusion.
Agree totally with you about Freak Out. I was 14 years old when it came out and Zappa was my standard of excellence for a long period afterwards...and still. I don't mind Soft Machine and Henry Cow being inspired by Zappa, because he touched everyone, including the Beatles.
Zappa was outstanding for many reasons, but the primary thing for me was that you could do whatever you wanted to do! Same with Pink Floyd, Soft Machine, the Nice, King Crimson (leaving a bunch out) even Cream. The Mothers, Cream, the Nice and later King Crimson, Colosseum, Soft Machine introduced me to a whole other world of music, including contemporary classical and free jazz like Ornette.
I was always a Don Ellis fan.
A note on Cream; they used the studio as much as Hendrix but it was less obvious. The Wheels of Fire studio disc is loaded with advanced studio gimmicks that are hidden in plain sight. Hendrix's use of panning is more obvious than Cream burying the studio tricks in the mix.
Great work, Andy. My comments aren't critiques- just adding additional perspectives.
There was a lot happening in the United States but it was under the radar.
I would be very curious as to where Pink Floyd would rate on the Prog meter. But without question, their debut album is the most wildly, psychedelic piece to emerge as early prog. And for me, “ Days of Future Passed “ is really the first ‘ Truly ‘ progressive rock album. The inclusion of the London Symphony Orchestra was a bold, original and successful effort by the Moodys, coming out of a time when music was becoming harder and edgier than ever before.
Electric Bath is indeed a brilliant work. I am oddly pleased to see it cited here. A very nice gesture and choice. Thank you.
I try and make these lists surprising and then people don't like that I have....thanks for appreciating these little twists and turns...
Loving this series Andy, can't wait to listen to episode 3
Hope you enjoy it!
I love remebering music I forgot discovering music I have yet to hear. Awesome vids. Here's one for yas ....Acid Mothers Temple & the Melting Paraiso U.F.O.....could be prog ?
Love your proposition that Progressive Rock is the foundation of all that has come after. The difficult job of drawing the best of American music and combining it into a new form is so underestimated. 'A new world order' is a good description of what was happening every where and what happened with Prog. Avant-garde experimentation and exploring all forms of music broke the restraints and expanded outlooks. As an American I am astounded as to how England was able to produce SO many musical minds that capitalized this movement. Absolutely astounded.
Perhaps England, being somewhat detached from the US music and political scenes, was in the unique position to view all this in a more rational and clear way. To appreciate the best of American music without the prejudice that North America brought. Regardless the Prog journey was one of the monumental achievements of the 20th century. History will sort it all out, eventually.
"Dillon opened the door" Zappa is a great place to start! Frank was genius (and a bit of an American exception). Jazz and Classical synthesis was fundamental and yes, he was 'light years ahead'.
When it comes to reality, histories rarely have an identifiable beginning. They are murky and often filled with morphic resonance, which basically means a series of things going on at the same time but those doing these ‘things’ are not aware of the others that are also doing these things.
There is also evolution. Some things like art forms, evolve. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to trace absolutely accurately because the way artists are influenced and the degree to which they may be influenced by some idea, some work or some other artist can’t really be gauged. We can have some idea of an influence, but not how much.
Progressive rock encapsulates these two streams.
Rock music, once the Beatles were on the scene, was constantly progressing. You’ve only got to listen to the difference between their 1963 songs and their 1964 songs to see that. The way they were threatened in early ‘64 by the emergence of the Hollies, the Animals and the Dave Clark 5 pushed their musical progression to “Hard Day’s Night” with its electric 12 string guitar, and “Beatles for sale” with its Dylan-conscious lyrics and studio trickery like fade-ins and feedback. Then the threat of the Stones, the Byrds, Dylan going electric, and the Kinks pushed them to usage of newer effects {volume pedals, fuzz bass}, instruments {sitars, electric piano, string quartet, flute}, even sharper lyrics that actually abandoned boy-girl themes, and utilizing the 4-track studio through “Help !” and “Rubber Soul.”
They were by no means the only ones expanding the form, but they are instructive because a cursory glance at their history shows a band that had progression in their DNA. Really, this is what made, and continues to make, the 60s such a fertile musical period and a period in which so many genres emerged and fused with others, that notion that bands and artists wanted to push boundaries and reflect their discoveries in music form.
In my mind, there has always been a universe of difference between progressive rock and prog. Prog is what progressive rock evolved or mutated into.
One could easily {I won’t, but I could} make the argument that progressive rock begins with the Beatles’ “Yesterday.” I suspect most people would chuck that out with the Christmas detritus, but that song demonstrates how the pop form was not only given to expansion, but actually expanding. And very importantly, it legitimized expansion/progression for rock bands and artists everywhere. After all, the Beatles were doing it.
It makes one think, doesn’t it ? 🤔
He's got a Progometer and he knows how to use it!
A sentence like a Zappa painting.
PROG Comment(ator)
Solid reasoning as ever. One could quibble over things but essentially you’re going to be on the money.
On a side issue, and with regard The Beatles. Sometimes a single track can carry a lot of substance. Even though it doesn’t display any overtly complex musicianship or composition, I have for a long time, considered ‘Tomorrow Never Knows’ to be, probably the most ahead of it’s time track ever. The idea that one could release a track in 1966 that almost sounds like it was ‘seeing the future of looping’ and building off that drum and bass foundation to add reversed guitar solos, and tape versions of sampling and sound manipulation, is astonishing to me. I first heard it back in the 80’s, without knowing who it was by, and genuinely thought it was a new track. Couldn’t believe it when the DJ said who it was and the year.
When I play it, to this day it sounds like some version of the future.
When I listen to most everything else from the 60’s, even groundbreakers like Miles sound of their time, at least to me.
Completely agree with you. I first heard it in the mid 1990s and I thought at first it was by a contemporary indie rock band, while thinking “that sounds a lot like John Lennon...when did he record this or is someone imitating him?” Totally blew me away when I discovered it was the Beatles in 1966. Light years beyond even a Hard Days Night in 64!
@@jimmycampbell78 exactly, and suggests that whichever decade you hear it, you will hear it as groundbreaking piece of work.
Essentially, you heard it as I did but with some anecdotal variation that related to your decade which by then was probably approaching nearly 30 years or so
I completely agree with you. Have you ever heard Eno with 801’s Tomorrow never knows.?
@@johannhauffman323 I have not. I shall check it out.
I think labelling music is "making" a problem
My Daughter is a classical Trumpet player she met Christian Scott a few years ago. My Daughter said that they don't have much in common as he is a jazz player....his reply..." We have EVERYTHING in common...we deal with sound...it's all sounds"
I love videos like these as I gain so much from your knowledge and expand my own musical horizons with music I have not heard of. I am now typing this as I listen to my new Electric Bath CD.
Fantastic..what do you think...is it prog??
@Andy Edwards By the rules of the progometer, I would say definitely. I would never have heard that if not for your channel.
One thing that your progometer misses is that musicians and bands change over time, and their prog score would vary over their career. Still, early .Pink Floyd has higher prog tendencies after their first album. For space and sci-fi allusions, look at Saucer Full of Secrets and Set the Controls of the Heart of the Sun. On Ummagumma, most of the songs stretch well beyond 3 minutes, and have very little of the structure of a pop song. There is also English whimsy, and elaborate use of the studio. The only prog area where I would deduct them is that while the musicianship is good, there is not the degree of virtuosity demonstrated by the most extreme prog bands.
Another issue is that a case can be made that early prog has roots in the early 60s British pop bands that were trying new things to catch the public's attention. Certainly the Beatles, with Indian influences and use of classical string sections, but the Yardbirds, Donovan and even the Stones showed some prog tendencies. Psychedelia did not disappear after a short time, it morphed into an enduring attitude of trying new structures, sounds and themes - prog.
Procol Harum's self-titled 1967 debut album mixed blues and classical with chamber music into a psychedelic art rock stew. If that's not proto-prog enough then what about their 'Shine on Brightly'? It contains "In Held Twas in I", surely a forerunner of prog epics. Then there's 'A Salty Dog'...
There's a massively overlooked American group from LA called Touch...they cut one record '69 that to me is a glaring and cutting edge example of early prog. Cheers and thanks for the videos
I have said many times numbers go from 1 to 10 so 1970 should be the end of the 60s ;) In any case you've done a sterling job so far, keep up the great work.
Thank you for mentioning Don Ellis! I can remember watching his band on Public Television and being incredibly impressed by him and his band. Brian Auger jammed with him at the Berlin Jazz Festival, and dedicated a track to him. I think lots of English musicians were aware of him and absorbed him. McCartney once mentioned listening to Albert Ayler prior to Sgt. Pepper and Robert Fripp and Ian MacDonald both mentioned listening to the John Handy "Live at Monterey" album while recording ITCOTCK. I picked up that Handy album for less than a dollar and the influence is fairly obvious. Jazz (especially free jazz) was a fairly under credited influence on Progressive Rock's evolution, even in the UK...and fairly early on. Free jazz and jazz from the late 40's to late 1970's. Soft Machine took advice from Zappa, but Hugh Hopper and Daevid Allen were using tape loops as early as 1964...so they were cutting edge very early in their career. So SM Vol 2 was just as song oriented as Vol 1.
One important influence I think you missed was Terry Riley's all night concerts in Europe that inspired artists from the Who to Soft Machine.
I think there were progressive rock groups in the United States, like SRC ( who influenced Genesis), Spirit, the Doors, Love, H.P. Lovecraft, the United States of America, Hampton Grease Band, Todd Rundgren, and many proto Prog groups could be found in the United States (Sea Train), but few were as commercially successful as the English groups because the United States was getting stuck in blues rock, fusion and singer songwriters. But the problem was (I was a college music critic from 1971-1974) and the record companies were obsessed with finding the next Dylan or next big thing... and anticipating it. I always thought the British industry and press were more open minded than the United States record companies.
Just my take...there were significant groups but they were unstable and largely unsupported. I would even argue for the Residents as progressive using your definitions!
Andy: "Stop the video now before I start to rant!!!". Lol 🤣 👍👍👍
Thanks Andy, as now aside from trying to not score all the music in my collection between 7 and 10 out of 10, I'm going to have to test the progginess of everything - including the Hard Rock & Metal and Jazz and Fusion and Pop I have just to see where the likes of Abba might sit, and I wonder how many like me are now going to apply your Progometer to their record and cd and downloads collections? Such fun! 🥳🤠🤪
Someone in the comments said that they define prog rock as rock plus x,y,z, which thinking about it actually is quite a good simplistic but effective way to make an initial generic assessment before applying the Progometer to do a more in depth evaluation.
Talking of Progometers Steven Reid of the SoT UK Connection once applied something similar - I may just try and find the show he did that in to see how many of his Prog categories are the same as yours - not that I'm an anally rententive nerd, much, when it comes to such things.
I'm interested to see how many in your eventual 60+ list I have - I'm taking bets with myself that I'll probably end up somewhere around 80 or 85% - already 2 down with the Don Ellis and Trout Mask Replica - I did once give Trout Mask a listen and didnt get it at all, will now have to revisit to re-evaluate. Have just streamed Electric Bath and yes, I can hear what you're talking about with that one so that increases my percentage as I've just ordered it.
Props to you for including Deep Purple's Concerto which beat The Nice's 5 Bridges for a live group and orchestra recording by a few weeks when recorded and about 5 moths when released in 1970 , but also was a full album's worth of newly composed material as opposed to the Nice's one side plus a couple of reworkings of classical pieces, and nice that you mentioned The Nice. The ocncerto though was technically not rleaesed in the UK until January 1970 - however it was released in the US in Decemebr 69 and was perfomed in Spetemebr 69 so on that basis I think you are fine to include it. (when I said above that I'm not an anally retentive nerd much, I think maybe actually I am quite a lot 🤓
I think it is worth running 2 disparate quotes with 48 years between them, side by side. The first one comes from Andy when he spoke of “Threatening our comfortable definition of ‘prog’.” The second one comes from a 1975 book {though written in ‘74} by Roy Carr and Tony Tyler called “The Beatles - An illustrated Record.” When commenting on the track “Rain,” they refer to it as “an excursion into primitive psychedelia before...its creative limits had been defined.”
So what the heck am I talking about ? In a word, evolution.
I do not see heavy metal, jazz fusion or progressive rock as genres that were invented or even defined by any one artist. Rather, they are genres that evolved. Yes, there came a point where they became identifiable, and the language and its definition kind of entered the lexicon, but rather like the myriad paths that led to world war 2, there were multiple things going on with multiple bands and artists and certainly with progressive rock, things were evolving.
It is of great interest that 3 tracks from the “Revolver” album were released in the USA 12 days before “Freak Out” on the “Yesterday and Today” album and just a month after “Pet Sounds,” though the 3 tracks released early in the USA were recorded before “Pet Sounds” had been released. So it kind of shows that there was lots going on with bands that were both independent of what other artists were doing, while simultaneously taking notice of what bands were doing when records were released. That is essentially how progressive rock evolved in its early days before “its creative limits had been defined.”
And as psychedelia took the music world by storm, it affected both the mainstream and the emerging underground and this is important because psychedelia was an important staging post in the development of progressive rock. While progressive rock was rock +, one of the significant plusses was drugs, in particular LSD. It’s no coincidence that it bled into the lives of jazzers {eg, Coltrane}, future heavy rockers {Geezer Butler was an acid head} and those that went on to push and expand rock progressively in a myriad of directions.
And that’s also important ~ progressive rock before “its creative limits had been defined” went in a number of different directions in the UK, USA and Europe, which is partly why I don’t accept that it carried an English aesthetic initially, though it was dominated by both English bands and therefore naturally, Englishness was an important ingredient for a lot of bands. But there were American progressive bands like the Moonrakers, Touch and Spirit as well as the Mothers of Invention. And Englishness had become an important part of rock as early as ‘65 when the Kinks were doing “A well respected man” {and later “Sunny afternoon}, the Beatles were doing “In my life” {and later “Strawberry Fields Forever” and “Penny Lane” and the Who were doing “My Generation” {and later “Magic Bus,” “Pictures of Lily & “I’m a boy.”}
Progressive rock reminds me of the elephant species ~ there are only 3 species of elephants and curiously, two of them are found in Africa. There weren’t always just 3, there were sub-species but we’re down to these 3 and when we look at them, we see elephants, though there are marked differences between them. But like progressive rock, there’s a whole history there that isn’t apparent when one just sees ‘elephants’.
Love the SM1 and of course Emerlist Davjack is a stand out too
Very much with you on Freak Out, I came to Zappa in the late 70s and it was a shock but every time I listen to it I have to remind myself this was the year I was born! The Lost Episodes compilation highlights how far he was along had already come a few years before.
I have no problem with your analysis, Andy. It's a bit like herding cats because Jethro Tull, Genesis, Yes, Led Zeppelin etc are all coming into focus (excuse the reference) as prog bands in 1969 but I would also put them into the 70's before they become fully formed.
Pink Floyd? Sci-fi imagery / literary allusion? "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun". Lyrics from poetry and title from Burroughs and released in 1968. Got to be a full 10% for me.
I'm also wondering whether the US psychedelic rock bands of the 60's could, like Pink Floyd, also make a valid claim to being a key element of the roots of prog? Jefferson Airplane, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Iron Butterfly? Are these as valid as Trout Mask Replica? I listened to them all in the very late 60's although at that time I preferred the more blues orientated British bands like Free, The Groundhogs, John Mayall etc
I am somewhat surprised, that neither in the video nor among all of the comments thus far {there's been 156} has there been any mention of 1968's "Music in a Doll's House" by Family. They're not my favourite band {I don't have one 🥳} and it's not my favourite album {I don't have one 😭} but it is a progressive rock album pure and simple. Just having Jim King on saxes and Ric Grech on violin {with Charlie Whitney on double neck guitar} shows their progressive intent, but the way their songs run shows that they were absorbing what was going on around them and not content with ordinary pop structures.
Some might peg the album as psychedelic, and it definitely has that slant, but it must be pointed out that psychedelia was, at least on the English side of the Atlantic, an important stepping stone to progressive rock.
I'm new at prog rock. I'll give a listen all this albums in particular order. To see how this changes through years. By the way great video
Procal Harum deserves a prog mention....
22:59 I demand a review of In the Court of the Kingson Crim.
When you here include Soft Machine are you thinking Vol One, or their very first album called "at the beginning" with Daevid Allen? Aussie Daevid Allen needs a Big Mention -> formed Soft Machine in the UK with whom he toured Europe but wasn't allowed back in the UK (visa problems), so he stayed in France and formed Gong!!
A bit like King Henry iv of France whose two grandsons simultaneously became Kings of France 🇫🇷 and England 🏴
Holdsworthy!
…….and now I’m listening to Bo Hansson; Lord of The Rings, The Magician’s Hat - great stuff. Early Scandi-Prog.
Bo Hansson is amazing!!!
Andy,
Just a reminder that working with an orchestra, with improvisational elements, was used by the Nice on Ars Longa Vita Brevis and Five Bridges before Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother and ALVB was released before Deep Purple's Concerto, if I recall correctly. Zappa also did it a bit starting w Absolutely Free and Lumpy Gravy. The Pink Floyd album was great, but it wasn't groundbreaking as the Nice or Zappa were.
This is why I mentioned The Nice and their first album. Zappa was beyond Floyd on Lumpy Gravy. I could have just talked about Zappa on this as he is way beyond everyone else. But instead I decided to use a framing device by going back to Floyd at key points in this history. Of course this upsets everyone waiting to hear their favourite band mentioned, but in the end I'm trying to make a point.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Got it! Spread the wealth. I can remember reading, first in Downbeat, them later in other mags, almost every group being impressed by Zappa and the Mothers. He influence was almost universal; the Nice, ELP, Jethro Tull, among others mentioned him as a favorite, and a friend of mine interviewed Gentle Giant and asked them who their primary influence was and it was Zappa! That was 1975.But that's only a sample of the influence he seemed to weild, especially in Prog circles. Also, although Davis produced a lot of fusion band leaders, I personally think of Zappa as being more critical in the development of fusion.
The album you missed is Phallus Dei by Amon Duul 2 from 1968.
What a boy, a progometer indeed! I remember hearing a Mothers record being played in the 60s on TV's Juke Box Jury. It certainly ticked most boxes on Andy's progometer. The Jury slammed it and they said they would never make it in the world of music, ha ha.
On another aspect of this presentation, Jimi Hendrix once said that King Crimson were the greatest band, so I wonder just how much influence KC had on him.
Electric Ladyland was Jimi's 3rd album, Are You Experienced and Axis Bold as Love were prior to it.
Great video ... and great list. 'Clouds' deserve a mention. Their song, "Waiter", is deffo worth a spin. Don't know the year ... but '60s band who were pushing the pop into new areas.
Loving it. Interesting parallel to my own path of discovery although I never really got into prog.
Mix Monty Python and Rick Beato and you get Andy Edwards
Love the rant at the end. Even pastoral British prog needs some occasional spice
We do love a good rant. Pink Floyd is definitely prog!💯 you tell 'em.
Andy, you really need to assemble an actual progometer! Great to see ‘Electric Bath’ getting its dues. Incredible album. Cheers.
Not sure anyone mentioned Caravan yet. Debut album released October 1968 - a year before King Crimson - and I'd consider it a prog album.
I agree...really overlooked.
I agree, Andy - they’re wrong! Scientifically proven.
Once again, great content, well presented, thought provoking, educational, and, most of all, fun.
Off to review my record collection to see what’s missing…….
Glad you enjoyed it
I imitate rock superstars, some quite well. Robert Plant eluded me for a decade till I hit the jungle in 1977. I started meowing like a cat and I stretched the note and made it louder and louder. If doing Plant hurts your throat then meow instead of sing. I'm not joking.
Wtf…. No one cares…
This is a cool series I'm really enjoying your insights. Have you considered producing a documentary?
The term progressive rock was quite prevalent in the late 60's, but it hadn't been expanded and codified yet into what we now know as prog. Johnny Winter had even released an album called Progressive Blues Experiment, not at all prog but capitalizing on the demand for something different. It seems to me that Prog grew out of the "psychedelic sounds" of the 60s. If you lived around the Bay Area in the late '60s you could hear tons of music that was verging on prog. I remember seeing a British band called Beggar's Opera that ticked off quite a few of the Prog boxes. I was also privileged to have seen King Crimson do one of their '69 gigs at The Marquee so I was in from the beginning! Little groups would pop up here and there that pushed the boundaries a bit. There were also more popular bands that I call British Rock for lack of a better term that contributed to that aesthetic. These would be groups like early Jethro Tull, Procul Harum, Blossom Toes and Traffic. From the rich Canterbury scene, Caravan was out there. Daevid Allen formed Gong in Paris back in the late sixties and Christian Vander was blowing minds with Magma. Examples of progressive bands from the US were The Hampton Grease Band and Touch. The Krautrock scene was happening back then and In Brazil the Tropicalia movement produced some heady sounds. All that said, Prog is mainly a British phenomenon from the '70s. No denying that.
Great listen. Really enjoying it. As everyone else has done, it seems, I'm going to put forward an album that while not prog, was surely an influence: Ogden's Nut Gone Flake by the Small Faces. There's pop songs that are not about love, some extended form in there, as the band develop and a very English sound that references music hall and nonsense poetry along the way. Not real prog, granted, but some elements there and part of the journey to pure prog, to my mind.
Great video Andy. Important to note that Freak Out not released in UK until 1967 so not many people here were aware of that album in 1966. However we were aware of Love's Da Capo album and I would have included here (The Castle and 7+7 Is surely expanding the pop song norm?). I thought that Sgt Pepper and Pipers were being recorded at the same time in Abbey Road (would be interesting to know if either band popped into each others sessions). I have an original vinyl issue of The Nice album - John Peel was often playing tracks from it on his radio show Top Gear. Personally think Revolver should have been included for Tomorrow Never Knows alone - it certainly was not a normal pop song for its time. Really enjoying these videos (and I don't consider myself to be a Prog fan) just love the wider outlook and context that you put into these videos.
Identifying where a genre began exactly is as difficult as identifying the exact moment one falls asleep or the exact moment night turns into day.
I have long been of the opinion that heavy metal rock, progressive rock and jazz fusion all sprang from the same root at roughly the same time and are 1st cousins to each other with so much overlap before things began to take a more identifiable and recognizable genre form.
In that regard, Cream and the Jimi Hendrix experience are the common denominators, with the Beatles doing their usual "absorb, try out/experiment with and move on" bit.
Your Don Ellis fan again. You said there were musicians who played with Don and Frank and that is true. Don was even credited on a song on Zappa's Absolutely Free album. Some musicians who played with both are George Duke ( short stint with Don without commercial recordings ) Ralph Humphrey ( the drummer on Whiplash, the Ellis song from the movie ) Allan Estes and Tom Fowler. Great series I'm really enjoying it.
I've heard Floyd described as "Lean Prog"
Progometer - SCIFI Imagery : at one point in their career they were labelled "Space Rock" - Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun, anyone?
Pink Floyd used to play "Space Rock" (Astronomy Dominé, Set The Controlls For The Heart Of The Sun). That might count for the Sci-fi category.
I expected you to include Jethro Tull's 'Stand Up' from 1969. It ticks many of the 10 Laws of Prog boxes. Probably not the Tech/studio innovation stuff as it was recorded live in the studio with very few overdubs. There is even a version of Bourree in Em by JS Bach.
"Stand Up" should definitely be on any list of progressive rock albums from the 60s.
You have to have Hansson & Karlsson on the list!!! They were the first prog band in the world!!!
use the prog-o-meter for your proof
@@narosgmbh5916 What is the prog-o-meter?
Hi Bert
you will find the 10 commandments of the Church of Progologie in Andy's Part 1 of the History of PROG
In the description
BTW The Story of H&K is sympathic incl some fail
I love that you rationalise your thinking and choices. I don't necessarily agree, but then we have different histories, preferences and perspectives. We do agree, however, that the likes of the Kinks, Who and Small Faces pushed the parameters of pop in a progressive manner, though - I assume from their exclusion in your list - did not define what became the genre of prog. Those are two very different things.
If we talk about the defining parameters of the prog genre, some of which are included in your Prog-o-meter, then Vanilla Fudge are the most obvious inclusion. Their debut album and gigs in London shook things up and prompted Deep Purple to claim their mission was to be the 'European Vanilla Fudge'. But just prior to that, the Beatles' 'Tomorrow Never Knows' and 'Strawberry Fields' exemplified new directions in daring. Just a year earlier the Who shifted things up with 'Anyway Anyhow Anywhere' and 'My Generation', and the Yardbirds had moved matters forward with 'Shapes of Things', 'Over Under Sideways Down' and 'Happenings 10 Years Time Ago'. The Beatles were definitely taking note (Paul McCartney's guitar solo on 'Taxman' was surely inspired by what Jeff Beck was doing). But at the time that was dubbed 'psychedelic', and Pink Floyd, with their paisley clobber, light show and 'weird' music epitomised it. 'See Emily Play' epitomises the melding of British pop whimsy with the that stretching of the status quo the Who were doing with 'Happy Jack' and 'I'm A Boy', and Traffic did with 'Hole In My Shoe'. By defying convention these were progressive.
The Nice were one of the first to suggest prog as a genre. Crazy World of Arthur Brown was another, though went off the rails too quickly to make a dent. Early Yes was as much a pop band as prog. But yes, with 'In the Court of the Crimson King', King Crimson presented a more complete and consistent vision of Prog as a genre.
Your choice of the Mothers is, IMO, an odd one though like the early Who etc. Zappa & Co. were defying the status quo. Ditto Don Ellis, though in his case he was defying the elitism that tied big band and modern jazz to the cross of sanctimony.
Some say that Beach Boys: Pet Sounds should also be on this list.
I like your videos really interesting but some things missing which should be included was the recording studios used budgets and time allowed in the studio & so forth . What I mean by this is say take the moody's they were in debt to Decca so was asked to make a demo album to demonstrate stereo for Deram as Decca were making stereo radiograms for the consumer market this morphed into to days of future passed then take the Hendrix album which was recorded in America on 12 Track Jimi by passed 8 Track and went from 4 to 12 so suddenly he could put more instruments on with more experimentation. The Beatles were the biggest band on the planet and went into the studio I believe it was November 1966 and took 5 to 6 months to record Sgt Pepper. America was ahead of us in the UK. USA had 8 track in 66 & Frank Zappa had a 16 Track in 69 UK Didn't have 8 Track till 68 & 16 Track till 71 so all this has a bearing on the making of some of these albums.
I would throw Child Is Father to the Man by Blood, Sweat & Tears into the mix.
set the controls and saucerfull of secrets was the start of prog
Good video. I see early Soft Machine as a more instrumentally sophisticated Pink Floyd. Regarding the MOI, English and European groups that were more influenced by them might have been the Rock In Opposition bands that emerged in the early 1970's
I understand that energy prices in the UK are exorbitant right now, and you’ve got to bundle up - but with that scarf, you really could be the next Dr. Who :)
Got all that vinyl except Don Ellis and the Purple one. But I do have Book of Taliesyn which is boss.
Another maverick choice might be The Beach Boys Pet Sounds album, which greatly influenced the Beatles on Sgt. Pepper’s. The recording techniques and soundscapes in particular were highly influential on other musicians.
Fun stuff to watch while I eat my biscuits!
My Mrs overheard the ranting and demands to know what a progometer is.
85 procent is great pink floyd is prog of course .
thank you ,thank you
Granchester Meadows is a good example of Pink Floyd’s use of poetry and English aesthetic IMHO
My only quibble woukd be Sgt. Peppers and MAGIICAL MYSTERY TOUR were a 1 - 2 progressive punch of music. Peppers has to be included, concept album- cover art iconic and groundbreaking, but Mystery Tour I would say has the young heart of the progressive movement. Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane, Walrus, talk about new sounds in rock. Where would prog be without them?
Thanks for alerting me to the existence of the Don Ellis album, Electric Bath. That one managed to evaded my radar. I'm Listening to it as I type this. Is it prog? Could be. I've always thought that Coltrane's A Love Supreme has had a big influence on prog even though many prog bands don't realize it.
"In the Court of the Cookies 'n Cream" 22:56
Could be the name of this channel
No 123 or Clouds in your list? Keyboard player Billy Richie is acknowledge by many musicians/fans as the pioneer of progressive music.
Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys from 66 could have fit in here if for no other reason than it's effect on the Beatles and Pepper
'Anthem of the Sun' by the Grateful Dead really has to be in here and 'Aoxomoxoa' with its English folk and poetic lyricism has to be in here too. Amon Duul II need a mention too.
Next time I do this I will simply read out a list of proggy bands so every is happy that their favourite band was read out. I apologise for not mentioning Grateful Dead and Amon Duul II here on this specific video.
The eponymous debut of Love; Da Capo; Forever Changes have to be in there from the US side. Not as prolific as Zappa, but in there at the beginning.
❤Love