“My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally.” J.D. Crossan
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸This guy is saying: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
@@gabepearson6104 I take the text as inspired by God and an accurate account of history. If you take a look on RUclips for archeological findings concerning the Bible, you will find that there is a lot of evidence to support the historicity of the Bible. See one link below. As for interpretation, again, I would suggest taking the stories at face value and then seeing how they are of one piece with the New Testament--such as the OT sacrificial system being a pre-figuring of Jesus as "The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world," as John the Baptist described Jesus in John 1. You can see Jesus' death being prophesied in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. ruclips.net/video/m16cPSmIEAo/видео.html
@@christophergraves6725 pls tell me you didn’t just cite the associates for biblical research. They’re a fundamentalist group, not very objective. As far as taking them at face value, reading them in their context is how you should properly read an ancient text.
I think if you look at Origen, who was out spoken on the topic, he denounced literalism as childish, but also believed that the metaphor/metaphysics had a real reference. The Logos for example was REAL and went on to describe Christ as a reflection of the Truth of God. I would put it this way Genesis is read incorrectly if read as literally physically a garden, etc, and read correctly if one gained insight into spiritual references. Platonists believed that the physical world was not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas. Today because the enlightenment has insisted on an Epicurean sense empiricism which evolved into scientific reductionist physicalism it has eclipsed the idealist perspective all together. And you can now see this clearly in how the dominant religious debates are both physicalist in nature: the literalist physicalism of certain fundamentalist and the atheist physicalism of scientific reductionism both leave out an idealism as a possibility and perhaps both don’t believe idealism exists. Plato wasn’t exactly a pure idealist either in the modern sense as he even thought the mind itself was not the origin of ideals but ideals existed both outside of physicality and outside of mind. So for Origen „Son of Adam“ and „Son of God“ both had a reality in this very same sense. Son of Adam is the physicality of human bodies with a soul, all human beings with souls, and Jesus was a son of Adam, and also Son of God is in reference to the ineffable reality of the ultimate. These short hand metaphors needs to be there to understand for example Origen‘s sense of universalism. Jesus refers to himself as son of Adam/Man but triumphs as the Son of God, and so can all others sons of Adam triumph as well. Jesus does not say HE will return to God but the Son of Man will, as he is the Son of Man, a son of Man, and the ransom sacrifice to the Deceiver releasing all debtors so that others may now achieve what Jesus achieves. So Origen concluded universal salvation as the eventual triumph of all human souls to be Christ-like through their own will towards God as Christ has already achieved the atonement with God. So yes it was Allegory with a Real reference, and seriously argued over because they wanted to understand this Reality beyond the physical.
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸Origen was a heretic - a disciple of the Hellenized Jew, the heretic Pantheist Philo😅🤦 David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
@@user-tw3ln5bi1q 🤦Not when it comes to Russia or supporting the suffering of Palestinians like a true Christian, which none of you do. Shame. Pure ignorance
@EasternOrthodox101 What strange utilitarian moral calculus have you computed that leads you to believe it's acceptable to slaughter Ukrainians to satisfy Russian imperial ambition but a monstrous sin for Israel to do the very same thing in Palestine? People like you who throw around the heretic label willy-nilly are jokes. You're high modernists. Slaves to nationalism and false fetishistic ecclesiasticism.
Microcosm vs Macrocosm The many forms a unit and with many of those units, a single unit is formed at a higher level of resolution and of those many level of resolution form a single unit so on until it's at the level of resolution that communes into Jesus then to the Father where nothing can be said beyond what Jesus has revealed to us at our level of resolution.
I haven't even noticed how YHVH made humans to work in the garden in Genesis 2. I guess because I always had the Elohist account of just making humans as rulers at the forefront. Anyway, I guess it doesn't help the connections to Mesopotamian mythology. I can see his point that allegorical readings are a necessary precondition for the stories not to just be old myths. But at that point I feel like the original text becomes rather empty. At best just giving you a couple of vague ideas you can work out something from. At that point it's more like a blank slate rather than a text which one can analyze.
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂I am fluent in the Hebrew & he is a pretentious clown lol
Ask the average Christian layman if they are aware of the philosophical canon of Aristotle, Plato etc that existed in the Western World and created the tradition of the church. However without this knowledge the stories of salvation take root in the believers, especially Protestant Fundamentalists. It is about the power of human language and storytelling that transforms the brain and human mind of believers.
The point should be don't take them either way. Jesus said why call me good, there is no one good but God. Now if it was anyone but Jesus saying it we could all agree that he would be saying don't call me good because I am not God. But since it is Jesus saying it there must be some hidden meaning because Jesus is God. Even though the speaker said good teacher out of respect he knew somehow that Jesus was God. Who thinks like that besides apologists. The genealogy one of the genealogies said his ancestors were in groups of fourteen but when you count them they don't add up. So now what to do? It must be allegorical, or perhaps some names are missing. So now we don't know what we thought we knew. If there were three groups of fourteen there would have been no question that it meant what it said but now who knows. Then there is the problem that Joseph is not biologically related so how does that work and there is another list nearly all different names also said to be his ancestry. So now we don't know anything and it is a free for all as to what if anything it means. I used to hope against hope that one person, one group with authority would make something like the red letter bible but for allegorical stories. Plenty have tried but they all fail as truth gives way to opinion. The Jesus seminar made the most careful study, just on the words of Jesus first looking for the most clear and the ones known to be from scribes and that hardly got off the ground because of idiots that think the church fathers in the first and second century knew better than all the great work since then, new documents, precision dating and most important language. All of that goes out the window because the bible is without error and everything in it is true . The church of course found hundreds of heretical teachings from the very people the church put in place. Some repented. Some were tortured and repented some tortured and burned at the stake. There were 40 antipopes back then and when protestants came along ... Probably more protestants were killed by the church including unspeakable torture than the Romans ever did. All this carnage, pitched battles all over Europe because people could not settle on a single understanding of the word of God, the God that is not the author of confusion.
"If one does not read scripture in a philosophical fashion, one is reading myths with contradictory narratives." While I agree with Mr. Hart to a point, as believers in, and beneficiary's of the Christian civilization, I don't think we spend enough time talking about how and when Christ's message, however poorly or rightly perceived on such large continuum of belief, changed the world for the better. Until we are able to convey this from the lessons of history, we are just squabbling between ourselves.
@@leafblower6052 wow you’ve gotta be incredibly ignorant. If we shut down every hospital that was started by Christians tonight in this country, millions with die that same night. If we shut down every orphanage every soup kitchen, every Salvation Army etc. millions with starve and go homeless tonight. You really need to study western civilization.
you just used a book written 300-400 years after to justify your ideological narrative read into a book written by 4 or 5 people 300-400 years before. Western Christianity is truly an eyesore.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Aaaaaaah...the mysteries of the human neocortex....We are actually very evolved to accept storytelling which is the basis for every cultural and religious tradition. We can argue that science itself is a more advanced genre of storytelling.
’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” - Jeremiah 8:8 Psalms 78:2: “I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old.” Dark sayings of old are ancient teachings in the forms of riddles and parables. The Biblical writers call them “dark” because the meanings are hidden, or concealed. They are meant to figure out through careful meditation, prayer, and contemplation. Why would the Lord speak to us like this? The answer is provided in the following scripture. 2) Proverbs 25:2: “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.” God’s glory is always concealed from the lower, or natural man. It’s an honor to become a king and figure it out. How do we become a king? Kings are symbolic for the ruling quality of the soul. We become symbolic kings by learning the spiritual meaning to the scriptures and applying them. As I stated in scripture number 1, we must involve our minds in careful meditation and prayer when thinking about the scriptures in order to understand their deeper meanings. 3) Proverbs 1:5-6: “A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and man of understanding will attain unto wise councils: to understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.” Notice how the above scriptures states that proverbs need an interpretation. This is not just referring to the book of Proverbs; it’s speaking about all scripture. The dark sayings of the wise, which need to be interpreted, are parables and mythology that conceal spiritual truth. 4) Ezekiel 20:49: “Then said I, Ah Lord God! They say of me, doth he not speak in parables?” Ezekiel is clearly stating God speaks in parables. 5) Ezekiel 17:2: “Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel.” Again, we can see that God loves riddles! 6) Isaiah 6:9-10 “And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their eats heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Besides being a prophecy fulfilled in the New Testament, God is telling us through this scripture that when most hear or see the scriptural stories and sayings, they do not understand. Our hearts have to be opened to the spiritual truth which is beyond any literal interpretation or meaning. New Testament Scriptures 7) Matthew 13:34 “All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitudes in parables, and without a parable spake he not unto them.” As you can see, Jesus didn’t speak to the multitude unless it was in a parable. Why would he do this? 8) Mark 4:11: “And he said unto them, unto you it is given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them who are without, all these things are done in parables.” Who are those without? It is those who do not realize that the kingdom of heaven is within (Luke 17:21). Notice also how Jesus said the kingdom of God is a mystery. It, too, is part of the dark sayings of old. The entire Gospel story and the Old Testament is all a dark saying of old. 9) 2 Corinthians 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” Paul is telling us that the New Testament is not of the letter (literal), but of the spirit (spiritual). The letter of the law or the literal leads to death because the literal interpretation has no life in it. Anyone who stops at the literal interpretation will eventually die in what they think (doctrines) when life has run its course. The literal interpretation cannot transform a person’s mind. It is the spiritual interpretation, especially when understood properly, that opens the heart and mind to the truth which is beyond any literal or physical interpretation. 10) Galatians 4:24: “Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants, the one from mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.” Notice how Paul directly states that the story of Isaac, Ishmael, Sara and Hagar are an allegory. They are the two covenants, one of promise (faith) and the other of bondage. The Greek word Paul uses literally translates as allegory, which in English means, an expressive style that uses fictional characters an events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances. 11) 2 Corinthians 4:3: “But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to them that are lost.” Paul is telling us that the spiritually lost see the Gospel through a veil. This is because without the proper understanding and knowledge, the Bible becomes a letter that kills and confuses (with hundreds of opposing doctrines), not one that gives life (the true understanding). 12) 2 Corinthians 3:14: “But their minds were blinded: for unto this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ.” I want to make a few important notes here. Paul didn’t consider any of his writings or any of the New Testament scripture. It is a known fact that he wrote his letters before the Gospels were penned, so Paul didn’t even have a New Testament, nor did the church during his day. The Old Testament was the only thing considered scripture. This is why Paul emphasizes the Old Testament above. For him the New Testament was a spiritual interpretation that was not of the letter of the law, not some book we refer to as the New Testament. For Paul, Christ is the spirit that is born in us, which also gives us the true interpretation to scripture. When the Christ arises, spiritual interpretation comes in as intuition, for it is all spiritual anyway. 13) 1 Corinthians 2:7: “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.” Notice how Paul states that the wisdom of God is a hidden mystery. The Greek word for hidden means higher spiritual wisdom, which is again is spiritual, not literal. 14) 1 Colossians 1:26: “Even the mystery which has been hid from the ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.” The saints are like the kings who interpret the word correctly. They are the spiritually pure and are able to peer beyond the literal for true understanding. 15) Matthew 22:29: “Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees who interpret scripture by the letter, or literal interpretation. If the scriptures were meant to be literal, do you think Jesus really could have said this to the very experts who knew scripture by heart better than anyone in their day? 16) Hebrews 5:13: “For everyone that uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.” Here the author of Hebrews is explaining that everyone who doesn’t understand the hidden meanings of the word is unskillful. A babe is the one who stops at the literal meaning instead of diving beneath it for the spiritual meat that is the only interpretation that gives life. What does all this mean? Wordsworth once stated: “Hebrew history, as written by the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, is a divine parable.” Even though Wordsworth boldly declared the Old Testament to be parables, he still called them “divine.” A lot of the time Christians get caught up in the idea that if the scriptures aren’t literal history, then they’d be worthless stories and all their faith would be for nothing. This couldn’t be further from the truth. As divine parables they illustrate the spiritual laws of the inner world through outer reflections. This was their purpose all along. And they were certainly inspired of the Spirit. The Bible has always been one of the greatest road-maps for the soul ever compiled. It doesn’t have to be literal history to fulfill this role.
@consciousphilosophy-ericva5564 I believe he does too (because being a Christian in any sense makes zero sense if you don't believe in a "literal" physical resurrection of Jesus), and I even see the merit of an allegorical reading (not that I fully understand how to even do that since the tradition I was raised in largely rejected such an idea as rank subjectivism), but what I have an issue with is understanding when you're supposed to take something allsgorically and when you don't.
Theologians like Hart have entirely left Christianity, but they word things in such a way as to try and take as many Christians as possible with them...It turns out I actually agree with Theologians like Hart, but I disagree with their double talk and hidden agendas. If the Christian God is real, Hart is not going to heaven (nor am I). Though I guess another angle is that by making the message seem Christian you can potentially sell more books than if you wrote and spoke on a general, unnamed and unknown God that may or may not exist, but this is exactly the God Hart is preaching in his books and talks. Again, I agree with Hart, the bible is a total mess and can in no way be taken seriously. However, if we stop before we throw the baby out with the bath water, perhaps there is something we can salvage from this mess? The idea of a loving God, the hope for salvation and life after this one, giving life a higher purpose or direction...these are things we can take from the bible...but we really should not be trying to persuade anyone that this is true Christianity...True Christianity has an angry wrathful God and it is impossible to talk your way out of that.
You haven't understood Hart's position at all if you think he doesn't take the bible seriously, and your comments about who is or is not Christian are just no true Scotsman sophistry.
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
@@theguyver4934 What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
@@theguyver4934 What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
@@theguyver4934 🤦🤦What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
![Roddy Ricch - Survivors Remorse [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/J5IeFzr2GgE/mqdefault.jpg)
“My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally.” J.D. Crossan
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
This guy is saying what I’ve been thinking for decades. Love it. Someone who reads the story as it actually reads.
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸This guy is saying: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
@@EasternOrthodox101 low IQ
This is a wonderful presentation of how to appropriately interpret a very human work of literature
Fundies have left the chat.
I am here. What Dr. Hart is saying is based in distortions of the biblical text.
The historic Church interpreted the Bible literally. David Hart is a modernist heretic.
@@christophergraves6725 why do you think that way? I ask because I am searching for a proper reading of the OT
@@gabepearson6104 I take the text as inspired by God and an accurate account of history. If you take a look on RUclips for archeological findings concerning the Bible, you will find that there is a lot of evidence to support the historicity of the Bible. See one link below.
As for interpretation, again, I would suggest taking the stories at face value and then seeing how they are of one piece with the New Testament--such as the OT sacrificial system being a pre-figuring of Jesus as "The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world," as John the Baptist described Jesus in John 1. You can see Jesus' death being prophesied in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. ruclips.net/video/m16cPSmIEAo/видео.html
@@christophergraves6725 pls tell me you didn’t just cite the associates for biblical research. They’re a fundamentalist group, not very objective. As far as taking them at face value, reading them in their context is how you should properly read an ancient text.
I think if you look at Origen, who was out spoken on the topic, he denounced literalism as childish, but also believed that the metaphor/metaphysics had a real reference. The Logos for example was REAL and went on to describe Christ as a reflection of the Truth of God.
I would put it this way Genesis is read incorrectly if read as literally physically a garden, etc, and read correctly if one gained insight into spiritual references.
Platonists believed that the physical world was not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas. Today because the enlightenment has insisted on an Epicurean sense empiricism which evolved into scientific reductionist physicalism it has eclipsed the idealist perspective all together.
And you can now see this clearly in how the dominant religious debates are both physicalist in nature: the literalist physicalism of certain fundamentalist and the atheist physicalism of scientific reductionism both leave out an idealism as a possibility and perhaps both don’t believe idealism exists.
Plato wasn’t exactly a pure idealist either in the modern sense as he even thought the mind itself was not the origin of ideals but ideals existed both outside of physicality and outside of mind.
So for Origen „Son of Adam“ and „Son of God“ both had a reality in this very same sense. Son of Adam is the physicality of human bodies with a soul, all human beings with souls, and Jesus was a son of Adam, and also Son of God is in reference to the ineffable reality of the ultimate.
These short hand metaphors needs to be there to understand for example Origen‘s sense of universalism. Jesus refers to himself as son of Adam/Man but triumphs as the Son of God, and so can all others sons of Adam triumph as well. Jesus does not say HE will return to God but the Son of Man will, as he is the Son of Man, a son of Man, and the ransom sacrifice to the Deceiver releasing all debtors so that others may now achieve what Jesus achieves.
So Origen concluded universal salvation as the eventual triumph of all human souls to be Christ-like through their own will towards God as Christ has already achieved the atonement with God.
So yes it was Allegory with a Real reference, and seriously argued over because they wanted to understand this Reality beyond the physical.
Great comment. Thanks for sharing.
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸Origen was a heretic - a disciple of the Hellenized Jew, the heretic Pantheist Philo😅🤦
David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
@@EasternOrthodox101 Nationalism is of the spirit of the age.
@@user-tw3ln5bi1q 🤦Not when it comes to Russia or supporting the suffering of Palestinians like a true Christian, which none of you do. Shame. Pure ignorance
@EasternOrthodox101 What strange utilitarian moral calculus have you computed that leads you to believe it's acceptable to slaughter Ukrainians to satisfy Russian imperial ambition but a monstrous sin for Israel to do the very same thing in Palestine? People like you who throw around the heretic label willy-nilly are jokes. You're high modernists. Slaves to nationalism and false fetishistic ecclesiasticism.
Microcosm vs Macrocosm
The many forms a unit and with many of those units, a single unit is formed at a higher level of resolution and of those many level of resolution form a single unit so on until it's at the level of resolution that communes into Jesus then to the Father where nothing can be said beyond what Jesus has revealed to us at our level of resolution.
I haven't even noticed how YHVH made humans to work in the garden in Genesis 2. I guess because I always had the Elohist account of just making humans as rulers at the forefront.
Anyway, I guess it doesn't help the connections to Mesopotamian mythology.
I can see his point that allegorical readings are a necessary precondition for the stories not to just be old myths. But at that point I feel like the original text becomes rather empty. At best just giving you a couple of vague ideas you can work out something from.
At that point it's more like a blank slate rather than a text which one can analyze.
@GXNGSHXT Productions wdym?
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂I am fluent in the Hebrew & he is a pretentious clown lol
Ask the average Christian layman if they are aware of the philosophical canon of Aristotle, Plato etc that existed in the Western World and created the tradition of the church. However without this knowledge the stories of salvation take root in the believers, especially Protestant Fundamentalists. It is about the power of human language and storytelling that transforms the brain and human mind of believers.
The point should be don't take them either way. Jesus said why call me good, there is no one good but God. Now if it was anyone but Jesus saying it we could all agree that he would be saying don't call me good because I am not God. But since it is Jesus saying it there must be some hidden meaning because Jesus is God. Even though the speaker said good teacher out of respect he knew somehow that Jesus was God. Who thinks like that besides apologists. The genealogy one of the genealogies said his ancestors were in groups of fourteen but when you count them they don't add up. So now what to do? It must be allegorical, or perhaps some names are missing. So now we don't know what we thought we knew. If there were three groups of fourteen there would have been no question that it meant what it said but now who knows. Then there is the problem that Joseph is not biologically related so how does that work and there is another list nearly all different names also said to be his ancestry. So now we don't know anything and it is a free for all as to what if anything it means. I used to hope against hope that one person, one group with authority would make something like the red letter bible but for allegorical stories. Plenty have tried but they all fail as truth gives way to opinion. The Jesus seminar made the most careful study, just on the words of Jesus first looking for the most clear and the ones known to be from scribes and that hardly got off the ground because of idiots that think the church fathers in the first and second century knew better than all the great work since then, new documents, precision dating and most important language. All of that goes out the window because the bible is without error and everything in it is true . The church of course found hundreds of heretical teachings from the very people the church put in place. Some repented. Some were tortured and repented some tortured and burned at the stake. There were 40 antipopes back then and when protestants came along ... Probably more protestants were killed by the church including unspeakable torture than the Romans ever did. All this carnage, pitched battles all over Europe because people could not settle on a single understanding of the word of God, the God that is not the author of confusion.
"If one does not read scripture in a philosophical fashion, one is reading myths with contradictory narratives." While I agree with Mr. Hart to a point, as believers in, and beneficiary's of the Christian civilization, I don't think we spend enough time talking about how and when Christ's message, however poorly or rightly perceived on such large continuum of belief, changed the world for the better. Until we are able to convey this from the lessons of history, we are just squabbling between ourselves.
How exactly did it change the world for the better? 🫣
He's clearly talking about the Old Testament here...
@@leafblower6052 wow you’ve gotta be incredibly ignorant. If we shut down every hospital that was started by Christians tonight in this country, millions with die that same night. If we shut down every orphanage every soup kitchen, every Salvation Army etc. millions with starve and go homeless tonight. You really need to study western civilization.
I'm sorry but there is not more than one God. The scriptures make it very clear.
@@leafblower6052 Read Tom Holland's "Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World". Holland's an atheist.
In Revelation 12:9, John himself says that the serpent that was in the garden is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.
you just used a book written 300-400 years after to justify your ideological narrative read into a book written by 4 or 5 people 300-400 years before. Western Christianity is truly an eyesore.
if a literalist invites you to defend doctrine with only the bible, kindly invite them to point you where the trinity is in the bible explicitly.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
OF COURSE THERES A FUCKING AD
What ?
Aaaaaaah...the mysteries of the human neocortex....We are actually very evolved to accept storytelling which is the basis for every cultural and religious tradition. We can argue that science itself is a more advanced genre of storytelling.
Is duck go back to school
So much for the resurrection. You’ve fallen far, Dr. Hart. Just another sign of the times.
I know what you mean, he’s heretic now , shame such a brilliant mind, like Origen I guess.
Yes, the resurrection would be metaphorical
David believes in a literal resurrection.
’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” - Jeremiah 8:8
Psalms 78:2:
“I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old.”
Dark sayings of old are ancient teachings in the forms of riddles and parables. The Biblical writers call them “dark” because the meanings are hidden, or concealed. They are meant to figure out through careful meditation, prayer, and contemplation.
Why would the Lord speak to us like this? The answer is provided in the following scripture.
2) Proverbs 25:2:
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.”
God’s glory is always concealed from the lower, or natural man. It’s an honor to become a king and figure it out. How do we become a king? Kings are symbolic for the ruling quality of the soul. We become symbolic kings by learning the spiritual meaning to the scriptures and applying them. As I stated in scripture number 1, we must involve our minds in careful meditation and prayer when thinking about the scriptures in order to understand their deeper meanings.
3) Proverbs 1:5-6:
“A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and man of understanding will attain unto wise councils: to understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.”
Notice how the above scriptures states that proverbs need an interpretation. This is not just referring to the book of Proverbs; it’s speaking about all scripture. The dark sayings of the wise, which need to be interpreted, are parables and mythology that conceal spiritual truth.
4) Ezekiel 20:49:
“Then said I, Ah Lord God! They say of me, doth he not speak in parables?”
Ezekiel is clearly stating God speaks in parables.
5) Ezekiel 17:2:
“Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel.”
Again, we can see that God loves riddles!
6) Isaiah 6:9-10
“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their eats heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”
Besides being a prophecy fulfilled in the New Testament, God is telling us through this scripture that when most hear or see the scriptural stories and sayings, they do not understand. Our hearts have to be opened to the spiritual truth which is beyond any literal interpretation or meaning.
New Testament Scriptures
7) Matthew 13:34
“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitudes in parables, and without a parable spake he not unto them.”
As you can see, Jesus didn’t speak to the multitude unless it was in a parable. Why would he do this?
8) Mark 4:11:
“And he said unto them, unto you it is given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them who are without, all these things are done in parables.”
Who are those without? It is those who do not realize that the kingdom of heaven is within (Luke 17:21). Notice also how Jesus said the kingdom of God is a mystery. It, too, is part of the dark sayings of old. The entire Gospel story and the Old Testament is all a dark saying of old.
9) 2 Corinthians 3:6
“Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”
Paul is telling us that the New Testament is not of the letter (literal), but of the spirit (spiritual). The letter of the law or the literal leads to death because the literal interpretation has no life in it. Anyone who stops at the literal interpretation will eventually die in what they think (doctrines) when life has run its course. The literal interpretation cannot transform a person’s mind. It is the spiritual interpretation, especially when understood properly, that opens the heart and mind to the truth which is beyond any literal or physical interpretation.
10) Galatians 4:24:
“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants, the one from mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.”
Notice how Paul directly states that the story of Isaac, Ishmael, Sara and Hagar are an allegory. They are the two covenants, one of promise (faith) and the other of bondage. The Greek word Paul uses literally translates as allegory, which in English means, an expressive style that uses fictional characters an events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances.
11) 2 Corinthians 4:3:
“But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to them that are lost.”
Paul is telling us that the spiritually lost see the Gospel through a veil. This is because without the proper understanding and knowledge, the Bible becomes a letter that kills and confuses (with hundreds of opposing doctrines), not one that gives life (the true understanding).
12) 2 Corinthians 3:14:
“But their minds were blinded: for unto this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ.”
I want to make a few important notes here. Paul didn’t consider any of his writings or any of the New Testament scripture. It is a known fact that he wrote his letters before the Gospels were penned, so Paul didn’t even have a New Testament, nor did the church during his day. The Old Testament was the only thing considered scripture. This is why Paul emphasizes the Old Testament above. For him the New Testament was a spiritual interpretation that was not of the letter of the law, not some book we refer to as the New Testament. For Paul, Christ is the spirit that is born in us, which also gives us the true interpretation to scripture. When the Christ arises, spiritual interpretation comes in as intuition, for it is all spiritual anyway.
13) 1 Corinthians 2:7:
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.”
Notice how Paul states that the wisdom of God is a hidden mystery. The Greek word for hidden means higher spiritual wisdom, which is again is spiritual, not literal.
14) 1 Colossians 1:26:
“Even the mystery which has been hid from the ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.”
The saints are like the kings who interpret the word correctly. They are the spiritually pure and are able to peer beyond the literal for true understanding.
15) Matthew 22:29:
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.”
Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees who interpret scripture by the letter, or literal interpretation. If the scriptures were meant to be literal, do you think Jesus really could have said this to the very experts who knew scripture by heart better than anyone in their day?
16) Hebrews 5:13:
“For everyone that uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.”
Here the author of Hebrews is explaining that everyone who doesn’t understand the hidden meanings of the word is unskillful. A babe is the one who stops at the literal meaning instead of diving beneath it for the spiritual meat that is the only interpretation that gives life.
What does all this mean?
Wordsworth once stated:
“Hebrew history, as written by the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, is a divine parable.”
Even though Wordsworth boldly declared the Old Testament to be parables, he still called them “divine.” A lot of the time Christians get caught up in the idea that if the scriptures aren’t literal history, then they’d be worthless stories and all their faith would be for nothing. This couldn’t be further from the truth. As divine parables they illustrate the spiritual laws of the inner world through outer reflections. This was their purpose all along. And they were certainly inspired of the Spirit.
The Bible has always been one of the greatest road-maps for the soul ever compiled. It doesn’t have to be literal history to fulfill this role.
@consciousphilosophy-ericva5564 I believe he does too (because being a Christian in any sense makes zero sense if you don't believe in a "literal" physical resurrection of Jesus), and I even see the merit of an allegorical reading (not that I fully understand how to even do that since the tradition I was raised in largely rejected such an idea as rank subjectivism), but what I have an issue with is understanding when you're supposed to take something allsgorically and when you don't.
his understanding of the text is horrible
I know David. He’s a horrible person.
How so?
@@premodernprejudices3027 He's an apostate a dangerous one as well.
Yea, I agree. He is quite erudite but I find his exegesis not to be his strongest skill.
I mean pray for your enemies right? Isn’t this him doing first Peter 3:15 and no one else in this comment thread seems to be doing that
Theologians like Hart have entirely left Christianity, but they word things in such a way as to try and take as many Christians as possible with them...It turns out I actually agree with Theologians like Hart, but I disagree with their double talk and hidden agendas. If the Christian God is real, Hart is not going to heaven (nor am I).
Though I guess another angle is that by making the message seem Christian you can potentially sell more books than if you wrote and spoke on a general, unnamed and unknown God that may or may not exist, but this is exactly the God Hart is preaching in his books and talks.
Again, I agree with Hart, the bible is a total mess and can in no way be taken seriously. However, if we stop before we throw the baby out with the bath water, perhaps there is something we can salvage from this mess? The idea of a loving God, the hope for salvation and life after this one, giving life a higher purpose or direction...these are things we can take from the bible...but we really should not be trying to persuade anyone that this is true Christianity...True Christianity has an angry wrathful God and it is impossible to talk your way out of that.
No, i think you are just unfamiliar with Christianity outside America.
@@darnokthemage170 God has every right to be angry.
Maybe look into the book Crucifixion of the Warrior God
You haven't understood Hart's position at all if you think he doesn't take the bible seriously, and your comments about who is or is not Christian are just no true Scotsman sophistry.
There's more versions of Christianity than Calvinism, you know?
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸David Bentley Hart: why the Bible can't be read literally? Because I am an Origenist heretic who thinks he knows better than what the Church teach & wants Hitler to be saved😂😂😂
@@theguyver4934 What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
@@theguyver4934 What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...
@@theguyver4934 🤦🤦What?? You are so brainwashed by this Pseudo Orthodox! You never read our Church fathers & you reject what is written in the NT & OT EXPLICITLY. The mental gymnastics & innovations of this arrogant clown, won't help you refute the infallible words of Scripture & our fathers!! Unlike you false idol, I an fluent in the Hebrew text & what it says, and don't follow Origenist heretical allegorization which were condemned by the Church! I am creating the biggest Christian channel to expose all your modernist heresies, just wait. Sad sad people...