EEVblog 1508 - We FINALLY Got Alkaline Battery LEAKAGE!
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- After the 3+ year experiment that started in March 2019 we FINALLY have some alkaline battery leakage failures! Did the Duracell's fail?
That pesky potassium hydroxide forming potassium carbonate.
Battery leakage video playlist: • Alkaline Battery Leakage
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Would also say it is a batch and plant thing, with the different batches made in different plants having a different time to leakage. Different machines stretch the steel case differently, and leave thinner metal in the side, so the case ruptures on some, and a burr on the die leaving a thin positive metal pressing edge that popped.
Would say you want to take a few different cells, different batches, different brands, and do a stress test on them, probably involving first discharging to flat by using the 1k resistor, then start to charge them using a 5V supply and a 1M resistor to give a trickle charge.
Carbon zinc batteries use the same manganese dioxide depolariser, but instead use an ammonium chlorate paste as electrolyte, almost dry, mixed with the depolariser and a filler, often wood dust.The old air depolarised ones had a much thicker zinc case, and a full volume of the paste in contact with the carbon rod positive, but would only be able to supply a 100mA load for an hour before drooping down to almost nothing, till they had gained enough oxygen from the air, via a vent plug sealed with (on old ones) with balsa wood plugs, or a fired ceramic on later ones. Those were in phones, to power farm lines, and might last a half century in service.
To get them to cook off nicely take a few packs of the batteries and put in your attic, or under the solar panels in a nice ziploc food baggie, and leave for the summer, so the thermal cycling takes them out. Ziploc so they keep dry, but cook nicely under the panels in the sun. They survive in the AC, thermal stress will kill them quickly. I had to toss away a good number of AA and AAA packs that did that, left in the garage and being done over by thermal cooking and humidity in Durban winter, they die much faster in summer when it clocks over 40C in there.
For sure there would be batch variance issues. I have a thermal chamber so could control it, but I like the idea of a roof test now that it's coming into summer.
Manufacturing variance is looking very very likely. Kinda-annoying.
Could not say better. Manufactures are always changing the machines and processes to optimize the production, so is difficult to make exactly the same product all the time.
We recently had to pull all but one of our 4 packs that were labelled as expiring in 2029 from the shelf because of a leaking battery. All of the packages that were older or newer were fine.
@@rogeriocosta1035 Bare in mind that comparing 'brands' isn't always that helpful either, mostly its just badge engineering. In Europe for instance many different brands all come out of the same factory in Belgium. So not only does the brand not always tell you who made it (as is so often the case now) but the plant it was manufactured in will vary by region.
You have to leave the Duraleak battery in a remote control, and it will leak immediately. It has a built-in special sensor to tell it to leak when placed in a remote control.
In an irreplaceable remote in my experience.
The odds of a leak are directly proportional to the expense or the importance of the equipment.
@@russellhltn1396 well, you may be on to something, cheap poorly designed devices may draw more energy, so cells are replaced before they have a chance to leak 🤔
Actually it's when you mix batteries and brands.
@@infernaldaedra I’ve used all sorts of alkaline batteries including energizer max and they all leak eventually.
I regularly have new in package Duracell, Energizer, and Rayovac leak. They have been stored in the climate-controlled portion of my home. It seems that alkaline batteries like to leak in expensive electronic devices - the more expensive, the more likely they will leak.
With remote controls the more difficult they are to dismantle for cleaning up the more likely the cells are to leak.
At this point my theory is that battery leakage is simply caused by sufficient time of the battery not being observed.
.... I concur, Quantum mechanics, it is aware it's being observered and alters it's state to correlate !
Schrödinger's battery is in both the leak and non-leak states until observation causes the wave function to collapse and the superposition of eigenstates resolves to a single state.
@@drewf64 surely it's more the watch pot never boils theorem? A watched battery never leaks.
The solution is to put cameras in your remotes.
Obviously you then need cameras to watch the camera battery.
@@benholroyd5221 .... String theory of infinite cameras imaging infinite batteries,
( Reminds me of a Vulcan edict ).
@@robbieaussievic no you wouldn't need infinite cameras. The first camera could watch the seconds battery and visa versa.
I believe there are controversial theories positing the a camera can watch its own battery, but at this point that is far from mainstream thinking.
My theory is that the propensity for a cell to leak is directly proportional to the damage it is going to cause, or more precisely how expensive it will be to fix or replace the damaged device! Of course your test didn't show much leakage. No expensive electronics were harmed in the filming of this vlog!
I had a toy from maybe 1990, it sat with duracells for 20 years or so and the batteries didn't leak. Any time growing up we knew we were going to put batteries in something and leave them for a number of years we'd always get duracells because of how rarely they would leak. fast forward to 2000-2005ish, something changed, manufacturing tolerances or quality... now they seem to leak like any of the much cheaper cells. Just another case of used to be great, now it's run of the mill.
I usually go for rayovac batteries in the usa because theyre good value, they do leak after a while but for the price and longevity its hard to beat. Oh, also living in Florida I find I have to check batteries every 6 months, the heat is NOT their friend lol. Leave a flashlight with some AAs in your car here, guaranteed to leak in a year or less.
Keep the test going for ones that haven't failed
Put 3 or 4 in series. attach your discharge resistor. The first one flat will get reverse current and start charging in reverse.
That was what I was wondering but it looked like that should have happened in the resistor test.
We had a lot of Duracells leak at the hardware store that I work at. There had to be at least 20 to 30 packages that had to be pulled because of a leaking battery. What's interesting is that they were all labelled as expiring in 2029. There was only one package from that production year that didn't have a leaking battery. Meanwhile we also had a package that was labelled 2028 that was fine, as well as any that were 2030 or later. (We had a lot of 4 packs due to an inventory miscount.)
I think what you should try is discharging a battery about halfway, then leaving it half discharged to see if it leaks. That seems to be general method I see my batteries leak. It's rarely fresh out of the pack, and it's rarely fully discharged batteries, but its always the ones you use halfway then stop. IT doesn't matter if it's something with a DC-DC converter that stops at 0.9V or a flashlight that you use for a couple of hours then put it away (e.g., for the next blackout, which always happens years later).
Really old dry cell or zinc/carbon cells from my early childhood certainly did leak. They were a zinc cylinder with one open end filled with ammonium chloride paste and with a carbon rod down the middle. Some had other things packed around the carbon rod to help negate the effects of polarization and get longer life in higher power applications. The Zinc slowly dissolved as you used them, and if it happened to dissolve unevenly you got a leak. Some had a steel case around the outside to help reduce leaking, but other types didn't.
Absolutely. The old "Ever Ready" brand batteries destroyed many of my toys in the 1960s.
I used to be a Duracell fan back in the day but the last decade or so I was constantly dealing with them Leaking. I got tired of throwing my money away on batteries and worrying about leakage and completely migrated over to Ni-MH rechargeable's and I couldn't be happier. It's so nice to stand in line in the grocery store and look at batteries and think... nope don't need any of you leaky suckers.
Absolutely the way to go - even if a rechargable only lasts 5 recharges you've saved money and resources - and the hybrid NiMH's now have good charge-retention in storage too.
I've had this similar history with Dura-leak, I'll have to try the Ni-Mh approach
I thought the chemistry of zinc carbon battery was common knowledge.
They were once the most ubiquitous primary cell.
Their construction was a brass cap central carbon rod, surrounded by a mixture of carbon and manganese dioxide paste. This was used to depolarize the carbon rod to stop the build up of pasivating hydrogen gas bubbles.
The outer was a can made of zinc metal, inside which was smeared with acidic electrolyte gel made of Sal ammoniac, better known as ammonium chloride. These cells were known to leak at the end of the cells active life, as the ammonium chloride invariable perforated the zinc container.
Bicycle lamps of the time used a 3 volt version of the battery, with a top brass positive cathode and a front brass clip negative anode, with most of the battery contained in a cardboard tube and bottom insulator. The top connection was held in place with a layer of shiny black pitch.
The bicycle lamps of the 1930s to 1960s were of a black painted, metal construction, which was usually damaged when the zinc carbon cells leaked, turning the lamp case to red rust.
Yes, I had many flashlights damaged by zinc carbon batteries back when zinc carbon were all we had. Then we got alkaline batteries and they leaked too. To clean up zinc carbon leakage you use a baking soda paste since they are acidic. To clean up alkaline you use vinegar. I also remember trying to clean leaky alkaline crud with baking soda and wondering why it didn't work and finally realizing they are called "alkaline" for a reason.
The big difference is in the warranty, for the NA warranty the only brand that will repair or replace your device is Energizer. Michael Bluejay has a fantastic section of his site devoted to batteries.
It's interesting how batteries have changed. I used to have terrible problems with the cheaper heavy duty batteries leaking when I was servicing in the 90s. I used to tell customers to use alkaline because they were much more reliable. I almost never saw an alkaline battery leak, and if they did, it was many years after the expiry. Now it seems that the issue is reversed. Time to go back to heavy duty cells.
I think the positive terminal corrosion is actually from capillary action from the label wicking the liquid up to the positive end and the size and location of the leak ie which side of the seal, terminal or case, (literally which side of the gasket, internal diameter or external diameter) failed. Large or case/OD side leaks would wick up to the opposite terminal, small terminal/ID side leaks would stay only on the negative terminal.
A possibility is that they may only really start to leak when confined. In relatively open containers the electrolyte can evaporate. But if it’s confined it could cause accelerated corrosion and the small crusties turn into massive dumps inside your electronics.
The more expensive the gadget, the more likely cell is to leak. And also the tighter the fit, more likely to swell up, then leak.
After watching the beginning of this test in 2019, I came across some Kodak AA batteries I’d had since I worked for them in the 90s. The pick ticket from the parts system was dated 1994. Much to my surprise, none of them had any signs of leaking. Even more shocking was they all metered out just over 1.6v. The he highest was 1.64v. I put them in a couple of small clocks and they worked for months. I’ve been writing on the back of the clock and so far the Kodaks lasted about 45 days longer than any Energizer or Amazon Basics. I’m guessing they were made by Eastman Chemical but I don’t think they make batteries today.
You can still buy Kodak brand batteries today (at least, here in the UK), but they're not made by Kodak. They just licensed their brand name and the batteries are made in China.
I remember when i was a kid in early-mid 90's Kodak batteries was longest lasting in high consumption toys. And after they was completely discharged i kept them in box bc i found out that after few days of resting they still had some enough energy. I was shocked because everybody was crazy about Dur...ll, Va..a, Ener..er and nobody knew how great Kodak batteries was.
@HwAoRrDk Licensing your brand to another manufacturer is the easiest way to destroy the brand, unless you stay on top of the manufacturer's QC.
I have seen this from boom boxes, to remote controls, to weather stations, portable radios, and even fluke and harbor freight multi-meters.. I am not sure there is just one single product that causes the leaks. Seems to be everything. Though (in my experience) while most leaked while the product was off, the batteries in the weather station leaked while the LCD display was active.
I use Duracells. The ones that leak for me seem to be the ones in electronics that get used a little, then sit unused for a year or so.
Exactly my experience, but this goes for any brand of alkaline battery. Stuff with too much quiescent current combined with a low cut off voltage. I have some remotes that do this, and some that don't.
Just recently I found some Philips alkaline D cells that had a use by date of 1986. They hadn't leaked, so storage and self discharge alone aren't necessarily the culprits.
Having those batteries kept in multiple containers like that has me thinking of.... potato salad.
You should use series battery holders with 4 (6V) and 6 (9V) cells connected to a 1 meg resistor to more realistically reproduce the conditions where I've always found leaks - in devices.
Pro tip: coat your battery terminals with dialectic grease. This will help protect them from corrosion if the battery does leak.
I have to do this with my maglite flash lights. I can drill the battery carcasses out of the aluminum tube but if the end cap gets corroded on, it's over for the light. These batteries swell when they discharge and don't always come out of those flash lights.
@@88ariesk Maglites seem to be one of those applications that guarantee a leaky battery. If you let one sit unused for a few years the batteries will always be swollen up.
The lipo-based AA /AAA ~$10 ones are good. USB socket on the side of them to recharge. Built in charge/buck module. Lasted over seven months in a weather station.
In the old all-in-one Macintosh computers (128k to the Classic II), Maxell batteries were used to power the RTC (PRAM). After all of this time, it's been found that those red Maxell 1/2 AA batteries are guaranteed to have leaked after 30+ years and killed many a logic board. Because of this, the Maxell batteries have earned the nickname "Max-Kill".
Ask an Amiga fan about Varta :)
@@ssalient I know that one all too well myself. Amiga computers and a select vintage of 386 and 486 PCs also have suffered from the "Varta bomb". I've repaired a few of those and even created a small PCB to ad to those systems that would allow a non-rechargeable CR2032 to be installed if there's a lack of an external battery connection.
I imagine that most electrolytes in batteries are either acidic or basic. If you let them sit for decades they are bound to leak.
My personal experience with leaving alkaline batteries in remote controls, electronic scales, calipers, etc. is that they will all leak eventually. It may take 3+ years but it will happen. I still use my TI92+ from my undergrad years every now and then and have to change its batteries every 4-5 years because of leaks. Instead of wasting AAs in it, I'm now using thumb screws as spacers to fit AAAs instead so there is less material to leak and a better chance that I may need to change batteries before it happens. The latest set of batteries to have leaked in my TI92 were Energizer and the next set before that were Duraleak. All four cells leaked both times.
Based on my empirical data, sub-1mA load over years appears to be one way of repeatably making alkaline batteries leak.
Funnily enough, I did wonder whether a trickle current over a long time might be a contributing factor. Remotes would be an obvious candidate for this, along with the fact that they can take a lot of knocks and bumps over the years.
There is one variable that you didn't include in your test . The tendency of batteries to leak is directly proportional to the value of the device it is left in.
But kudos for your commitment to this long term test , and thanks too.
In the early 2000’s when night vision first became affordable for the masses, I owned a NighOwl gen-1 NV monocular that would totally destroy any brand or type battery that you could think of. It took 2 AA alkaline batteries to drive the sensor, display, image processor, and a small IR illuminated. It was surprisingly very conservative on power consumption, but, every battery I put in would end up leaking and corroding the terminals, sometimes in as little time as a few days. It was so bad that I had to just put it away in storage, partly because I couldn’t afford a new set of batteries every time I wanted to use them but mostly because the springs simply wore out from constantly swapping batteries and cleaning the terminals so often that it wouldn’t make a good connection anymore. Back then I remember thinking it must have something to do with the type of metal that they used for the positive and negative terminals, as well as drawing a small amount of current when powered off. I never remember finding the batteries dead or even mostly drained 🪫, so the power draw when off couldn’t have been very much, but obviously just enough to make it.
I have a suspicion that some duracell batches never have leaks, but like 50% leak in other batches.
I used to buy Kirkland batteries (Duracell) at Costco and never had any issues. However, I had a plague of leaks from the last pack I bought. I suspect this effect is less obvious when buying small packs.
Kirkland's are the WORST; ANY device that has Kirkland's in it will be destroyed.
I think the Duracell's were used A LOT in a particular period, with the notion "they do not leak", and so we forgot them, and found them the most 20 - 40 years later in these old forgotten devices... leaking.
Anectodically, I have a pair of Duracell alkaline AAs that came preinstalled in my Microsoft bluetooth mouse way back in 2014.
They were made in "2013/06" and should've expired in March 2019, but they still haven't leaked and they do still power my mouse (granted, mouse didn't see much use until recent years). No weird chemical deposits or anyhting, they're like new externally.
They have "DURACELL" stamped out in a circle on their negative pole, say "Original Equipment Accessory", and, apparently, were made in -Toronto- in China, but they do mention a Duracell division (?) in Toronto.
The funny thing is that rubber parts on the mouse started disintegrating faster than it was ruined by battery leaks :^)
(although it's still a good mouse)
I did a similar experiment a few years ago with very random results then after a very hot spell of weather - bingo - I caught them in the act! Warm/hot weather expands the fluid in the battery which pushes on the rubber seal and eventually the metal to rubber contact fails and the alkaline will seep out. My conclusion was that heat cycling of the batteries was the main factor for batteries leaking prematurely. If you live in a country that regularly sees temperatures in the 30-40+C range in the summer or the device is left in the sun or in a very hot environment it is not surprising that batteries will fail more quickly.
I thought it must just be me but i spent over 20 odd years repairing remotes and all sorts of gear up here in the Queensland heat and in all that time only ever saw a couple of duracell leaks almost all the ones i saw were energizers, so i figured it as sales people having a lend.
I've had most leakage with Eveready alkalines. Almost ruined a few expensive electronics gadgets but I managed to clean them up fairly well and save them from the bin.
I have a set of speakers which always gets at least one of its four AA cells to leak. It reverse charges one in the series, and you can hear it fizz, usually after 6 months of use or so.
They tend to leak when they are used in a very low current consuming device. Not when pulled harder. Nor in storage really. Alot of duracells start to sweat instead of really leaking, like you showed.
The best way to get one to leak is to put it in some equipment that you really like.
$500 meters or weapons optics, guaranteed to leak. $50 flash light will leak a few times. Cheap ass tv remote never leaks... of course I started using NiMH in remotes a long time ago, so my data is skewed.
In my experience, temperature control or lack there of is the real reason for batteries to leak quickly. The other issue is how long have these batteries been sitting on shelves, waiting for someone, anyone to buy them and put them to use. Might be that the lot of us are buying already age degraded batteries unknowingly. And this particular issue is probably more pronounced on Duracell due to their marketing.
Correct that alkaline usually leak in super hot/humid and also super cold/dry attics or storage. Under normal circumstances, they rarely leak. Duracells do not fit this criteria. Marketing is irrelevant, 2010s Duracells were the worst alkalines ever made.
carbon-zinc use an acidic electrolyte usually in a paste. The outer can is usually the zinc electrode, so when the battery wears out it will be because the zinc electrode is depleted and it will in that case leak.
I can almost say for certain that it is not a battery manufacturing issue. I have a headlamp that will consistently cause batteries to leak. I have to take the batteries out of it otherwise the batteries will leak within about 3-4 months. This is with multiple batteries as well. If I get the time and income I'll send the lamp to you if you'd want to investigate, I'm genuinely curious but don't have the time to investigate it myself.
Load them down with a resistor in series with number of diodes to simulate whatever junction drop voltage you'd like.
Duracell: come on! Do you expect me piss in a plastic bag? Give me a fluke!
We learn so much from you sir.
After this video I think it might have to do with mechanical manipulation - I've most often had leakage in things that i don't handle as gently as I probably should - tv remote controls, rc remote controls, the steam controller etc.
I did notice that when I moved from a location at near sea level, to a location above 3500 ft elevation I noticed rubber seals on just about everything I owned failed pretty quickly. I also had a lot of devices where batteries also leaked (not immediately but after some time). I wonder if after the rubber seals age in place they loose the ability to flex in response to pressure, humidity, and temperature changes.
Was thinking something similar, as the last time I had batteries leak it was in a bathroom LED light. Water shouldn't have gotten in, but it was likely prone to a fair amount of thermal cycling.
I personally have switched to el cheapo zinc chloride batteries. Yes they leak but can be cleaned up without any acid damage to the equipment.
I have a couple of duracells and 4 energizers in their original sealed plastic packaging from 2008 and both duracells have leaked and only 1 energizer has slight leakeage. Just took them out of the package and all read 1.53V+
Duraleaks have killed so many devices I swapped my entire house to Eneloops one day regardless of the cost.
Thank you for the correct chemical explanation of what leaks and what happens to it in the air. Great to hear it.
Zinc-carbon (or zinc-chloride) cells have slightly acidic conditions in them due to the ammonium chloride being present in the electrolyte, as shown in the datasheet at 13:20. During operation, the zinc metal casing is being oxidized into zinc(II) chloride and the manganese(IV) dioxide is being reduced into manganese(III) oxide.
This means that the zinc casing is being progressively corroded during discharge and (to a lesser extent) during storage. So zinc-carbon cells can absolutely leak, but they will not form much internal pressure to force the contents out. So unless the structurally weakened cell is mechanically squeezed, leaking is rarely observed.
Not my experience - some zinc carbon cells used to leak horribly (anyone remember "every ready" brand in the UK?), sometimes oozing acid all over the device and corroding battery contacts away. The contents become a strong acid, not "slightly acidic", as zinc chloride is much stronger acid (pH 1) than ammonium chloride (pH 6) and is formed as the battery is used up. Generally a fully discharged zinc-carbon cell would be close to leaking as the zinc wall was nearly all eaten through at that point. You learnt to never leave a dead battery in a device back then... Acids are more destructive than alkalis for many metals.
There's also the reality that if you cut a zinc chloride cell open then it's only damp, there's no free liquid as such just dampness.
Cut a same size alkaline open and you'll have a small puddle of free liquid.
If you don't have much liquid in the first place then there's not much ability for it to leak.
Oh you doing the test again! haha I wonder why I always watch these :) :)
I suspect that the whole duraleak thing is just due to the fact that they make significantly more batteries than anyone else. Confirmation bias being what it is, people associate them with being leaky simply because they are more common.
In my experience all alkaline batteries leak, doesn't really matter who made it.
Never seen someone so excited to get annular leakage :D
The likelihood of an alkaline battery leaking correlates directly to the price and/or importance of the device in which they're installed.
My expectation has been confirmed: it's not the brand, it's the quantity.
Some batteries will leak, due to manufacturing differences. But if 80% (made-up number) of the people have duracell in their devices, there's a disproportionately high chance it will be one of that brands that fails.
My leaking battery story: I got a remote control that had the batteries packaged seperately, in a nice sealed blister pack. The batteries (2xAAA as I recall) were wrapped in plastic waiting to be installed to bring the batteries to life in the remote. I got the remote that it appeared the batteries I assumed had been brand new, but had been sitting on the shelf for (I assume) YEARS. The liquid/gas that was released made the plastic all "sticky", but thankfully didn't disturb the actual remote. Yes, the batteries were "off brand", I disposed of them quickly.
My suggestion fora test, just buy them and cycle the environment, I suspect it might make a difference. (expansion, contraction, and all that).
They usually fail in a tv remote. Also seem to fail when there is a slight amount of moisture change regularly. Probably because the rubber drys out.
Also, I have discovered a few electronic projects I built in the late 1970's and was fogotten in a box in the attic. All had the eveready 9v transistor radio batteries with the 9 lives cat that still reads around 7v and has not leaked! I also have a collection some eveready radio 22 1/2v "B" batteries fround in a 1920's crosley battery radio that to this day is in a perfectly collectible state. It appears, since the beginning of radio, someone figured out how to keep batteries from leaking and ruining your radio! Today, I'm sure to save million of dollars they could care less about if it leaks-they just send you a coupon for another set of batteries (if you have proof of purchase) to smooth over your ill feelings. I think a little dielectric grease on the terminals may be the best preventive cure.
All I know is the name brand (Duracell) and store brand (Kirkland / Sam's Club) bulk packs I buy, they usually leak within ~9months. Some sooner, some later, just sitting in storage. I lose about 33% in those bulk packs to leaking.
I wonder if the environment plays a role in it? I live in a hot (not humid) environment, so they're normally stored around 75-80deg F.
Excellent video, I have noticed leaky batteries most often appear when placing batteries in parallel, as opposed to series as you have them there. The reason is they charge each other. Therefore, have one discharged in parallel with a charged one will cause the discharged one to be charged, which is the primary cause of leaking batteries.
Batteries are very seldom put in parallel.
@@okaro6595 You are correct, however, lithium ion cells are put in parallel all the time... Diodes allows safe connections in parallel, as well as improving performance 10x by removing wasted self charging.
@@Paul_Bearden - This video is about ALKALINE batteries, not Lithium. And they don't use diodes in parallel connected battery packs, as that makes an unnecessary voltage drop, yet adds no benefit whatsoever.
My guess would be that environmental conditions play a big part in leakage, if I leave something with a battery in it in my shed it will leak pretty quickly (6 months to several years) even if they weren’t flat when I forgot to take them out.
Changed the language on my phone to 'English (Australian)' so TTS would have an accent. I was surprised by the term Torch... what other surprises will there be.
Battery leakage happens according to Murphy's laws: it won't show until you put those batteries in an expensive-ass Fluke multimeter.
3:45 that's a nice approach, testing different factors here. I'd suspect it's a small (single mA order of magnitude, maybe even fractions of mA) current draw over extended time.
Atmospheric influence might be at play, especially moisture and corrosion. Might be an idea to test one box of batteries with a few drops of water in it, comparing it with another one with some silica gel. If there's a difference, we might as well have pinned it.
Carbon zinc batteries definitely contain manganese (manganese dioxide to be precise), as well as some ammonium chloride on the interface between zinc and MnO2. Back in my teen days I took s lot of these batteries apart to get materials for doing chemical experiments (electrolysis etc.) in my lab, haha. Good old days!
Awesome, Dave! I have had a few Energizer cells leak. I think I've had a few cells of like all the major brands leak at some point. However, I have had a higher percent of Duracells leak. Of course, that's not to imply that all Duracells instantly leak, far from that!
Interesting about the manganese! I know it's often used as a catalyst for certain reactions but that only takes trace amounts.
Oh, and I *finally* had to replace the Eastman (of the Eastman Kodak fame) AA cell in my alarm clock. That cell lasted about 25 years or so! It finally got low enough that I could see the clock chasing individual segments on the LCD.
If you still have the battery, it'll be interesting if you posted up pictures of its label.
@@h8GW I'm not sure if a link will work here (I'm also hyper aggressive with my firewall rules) so if it doesn't work let me know and I can look into posting it over on the forum. randomer.net/stuff/aa-cell.jpg
That Kodak battery must have used ultra pure chemicals and strictest quality control for sure.
@@Crazytesseract Yeah, no kidding! I'm blown away by how long it lasted in continuous use. The alarm clock has been my "daily driver" since the mid-late '90s. It also speaks volumes for how low-power the Timex alarm clock is.
I have my doubts about it being the way the batteries are being discharged. A couple of years back I posted a pic of a pack of radio shack batteries I found that had leaked while still in the original blister pack. Could there be something weird going on with the chemistry? Some kind of runaway reaction?
It might be an idea to ask the community what devices may be prone to having leaked batteries? I think devices with gaskets (waterproof devices) are prone to leaking, I think it may have to do with venting...
This made something click for me. I think you are on to something.
Perhaps the sealed tubs make a difference. Keep them in an open box to make sure they have ample access to CO2 and oxygen.
Oxygen attacks rubber slowly - the anti-oxidants in the rubber gradually get used up.
Maybe there is something about amount of time that pass since manufacturing until you start discharging them.
If a torch is the favorite place for batteries to leak, maybe the peak discharge current has an effect.
I have seen them leak on low power stuff and also on "hi" (cheap LED torch), but not consistent. Could it be that non constant discharge has an effect?
Regarding the hypothesis about load characteristics I think you might be on to something since I see these things leak the most in 'soft power' devices, but weirdly never in analogue Quartz clocks where it is normal for the batteries to be left a couple of years constantly discharging.
I've got some alkaline cells to leak when I deep-discharge them. Not always tho. Better slow discharge them to 1.2-1.0V (not measured under load) before you connect them to the joule thief. The joule thief was driving a generic 5mm cold white LED.
Man time flies. I remember you putting these batteries in this years back.
I had brand new AAA's just left in storage in their original packaging, never used them (apart from the ones i took out for use)...and 30% of what was left in storage leaked out after a few years.
I guess its just time and chemistry based, not physical/discharge, since it happened to full never used batteries.
Discharging batteries in SERIES is a good way to make them leak. As each cell has a different capacity the first one to go flat will be force discharged by the others. This is worse than completely discharging a single cell. This is why a cell can be sometimes found with reverse polarity.
Thanks! I tried a kind of "recharge" the cells with const voltage (ca. 1.6V) and resistor limited current to ca. 1mA. And got a rel. high percentage leaking when they were laying around afterwards.
The "recharge" effect is also the cause of leakage in devices using 2 or more cells in series, when a weaker cell goes into "recharge" reverse voltage.
That may create hydrogen bubbles in the cell, increasing the internal pressure. In theory the manganese dioxide should take care of the hydrogen, but that's probably rather slow. Primary cells in general shouldn't be recharged.
I've had many customers come into work with energiser batteries that have leaked the most. I can't comment on Duracell as they are not very common around nz tbh but I do use a lot of batteries myself and have had a few different brands leak mostly Panasonic and energiser with one anko batt that I had left in one of my emergency torches.
Interesting, might have something to do with humidity?
I get them here every year. Even worse when they were left in the remote or so.
Zinc-Carbon batteries use 'sal ammoniac' - ammonium chloride - as the electrolyte. In both Alakali and Carbon-Zinc the Mangnese oxide is a 'depolariser' which soaks up hydrogen produced in the discharge chemistry. In a dry battery this incleases the output voltage to about 1.5 volt/cell. Back in the day Cabon Zinc batteries were not sealed at all and could leak electrolyte - which is pretty corrosive to ferrous and non-ferrous metals.
The chemisty of corrosion is similar to the effect of road salt on the underside of your car, but is probably exacerbated by leakage current from the batteery.
I stopped using Duracell years ago after an umpteenth leak cleanup and switched to Energizer. I haven't had any leak problems since.
I find battery leakage interesting in that, like the other day, in doing a major cleanup of my Lab, I came across some leaking batteries.... as expected.
But then, I found another device where I had completely forgot to remove the batteries and this device had been sitting around for much longer.
The batteries, while dead, of course, looked like they just came out of the package! Fresh as a daisy. Hmmmm..
But here's something I'd sure love to explore.... RECHARGEABLE AA batteries.
Specifically an experience here that I can not explain or grasp. LOL
That is, one of our wedding presents, 14 years ago, were a whole bunch of garden solar lights.
After the 1st and 2nd seasons, they all pretty much gave up the ghost where the batteries no longer charged and some got rusty, somehow, up under where the batteries sit.
BUT HERE'S THE THING.... ONE of them... just one... has been working for the entire 14+ years, through hot summers and sub-zero winters!
Yes, even in winter, like last winter, when dark came, that one unit's LED was nice and bright!
14+ years! WOW!
So the question arises, is with all these batteries, all being the same brand (from China of course), how is it possible that ONE can still be working while all the rest are long gone!!???
What could be the difference in this one battery? If they are all coming off of the same assembly line, HOW can ONE be so different as to last 14+ years!
Yup, THAT is beyond me at this point. LOL
It also indicates that IT'S POSSIBLE TO MAKE RECHARGEABLES that can last YEARS. Clearly, since most do not, they are made to fail quickly. I guess that their idea is make them fail so that people buy more. To me, that's just bogus. How about make them last a long time, so when they do fail, people will want to buy the same brand.
When they fail quickly, I doubt that most people will go out to look for the same brand....
It appears one of your garden lights slipped by Quality Control and accidentally shipped with good cells instead of the cells with built-in planned obsolescence. 🙂
I had 8 RS Components brand batteries leaked after less than 4 months. Was in two differential probes that was left in on by mistake. Do it matter if they are stored with a load ?
I want to see temperature/pressure/humidity cycling experiments!
In my experience, heat makes more difference than anything else. Batteries stored in high temperature seem to be much more leak prone to leaking than ones in low temperature.
Hi, I want to share my experience.
Months ago I found at home a plastic bag containing two new boxes of batteries, that I purchased at Brico probably three or four years before, and for whatever reason were forgotten in this bag with some sandpapers in my store. I opened the paper boxes to use some batteries, and guess what ... ? All the batteries were leaked as BRAND NEW, never discharged in a device. They were also in the "use before" period. I also took one or two of them, with some less leaking, and I was still able to measure 1.0 or 1.2 V 😵
So am I about to propose a counter intuitive statement: 😲
- may be that the main factor that force the batteries to leak is THE TIME and... the charge !
In fact I suspect that when the chemical is charged has a stronger corrosive capability as Potassium Hydroxide and can produce even gas pressure that in long time can break the sealed enclosure (in fact I suspect the felt Dave showed on the anti leak battery was a patented system to allows gas pressure to exit but stops the liquid Hydroxide gel).
It is only the long storage time that give enough time to the Hydroxide to corrode the metal parts. May be that when the battery discharge, the alcaline compound looses slowly its corrosive level, and it is not expected to leak in a reasonable time. In my case, they were brand new fully charged, and a whole box of 24 batterie all leaked in the box in a couple of years as charged! This would also explain why the most discharged batteries of Dave were not leaked! They were not any more chemically aggressive to corrode the casing.
Dave could take a full box of batteries containing 10 or 20 items in a box (all from the same production batch), completely discharge 10 and put in a container and label them, and then leave the other 10 CHARGED in another container and see in three years what happens. 😉
Super patience.
They only leak if installed in something expensive or critical. I just had an Eneloop leak. I didn't think those rechargeable NIMH batteries leaked. I know NiCad leak though.
Does it matter which orientation they are stored? If they are set on the negative side down will it leak faster?
It depends on the purity of the chemicals used. These days Chinna supplies a mix of pure and impure chemicals to battery manufacturers, to lower costs. Hence some batteries leak, some don't.
I have to agree to the comment further down that the basic chemistry of these batteries should be well known - and I think there would be room for a well researched video by Dave on the topic.
Zinc-Carbon cells were absolutely leaking at the end of their lifetime, because at that point almost all zinc of the outer casing had been converted into zinc chloride by the action of the moist (but not liquid) ammonium chloride electrolyte which was soaked up in the porous mantle of manganese dioxide surrounding the carbon rod in the middle. The zinc was the negative electrode, therefore the seal was at the top of the battery and not at the bottom. At the carbon rod hydrogen would form during the discharge (1 atom of neutral hydrogen per electron of charge taken out) but manganese dioxide is there to convert the hydrogen to hydroxide binding to the ammonia, here the manganese ion is actually reduced, i.e. reaches a lower ionization state.
Zinc chloride is quite corrosive (I would say more than potassium hydroxide or potassium carbonate), it is used in those aggressive fluxes for plumbing.
Alkaline batteries essentially use the same overall chemical process, i.e. zinc is oxidized and manganese dioxide is reduced. Since it is the same ions contributing the cell voltage is the same as for the zinc-carbon cells. But the full design of the cell has been turned inside out. The zinc is no longer the container, but a mass in the center of the cell, connected to the negative bottom plate by a nail. And now the positive electrode in the form of carbon and magnesium dioxide is on the inside wall of the cell.
Alkali hydroxides are corrosive towards aluminium and magnesium alloys, while zinc chloride is not - this might be the reason for the shipment problems...
I use rechargable NiMH batteries in almost everything because they not only save money in the long run but they also do not leak like this, even when fully discharged.
7:30 the positive end doesnt look like its one peice with the casing, so it might be a bad pressfit/solder joint
Is the storage bunker a nice even temperature?
My storage temperature cycle between 10 and high 20s celcius (maybe higher if on a high shelf )
Maybe my batteries leak more ferociously or I'm wildly underestimating how long I store things.
My TV remote batteries are still the originals from 2011,(battery expiry date 2014)
Vinegar is the safest method of neutralizing any alkaline residue that is left on your electronic device and fingers.
Carbon zinc batteries really leak bad! The zinc case disolves away and the liquid acid electrolyte spills out. Some these days might have a stainless steel sleeve to reduce the problem but back in the day when alkaline replaced zinc batteries the amount of leaking batteries dropped substantially. The manganese dioxide in cells is a "depolarizer" which simply means it catalyzes hydrogen gas bubbles to become water (reducing the chance of the cell bursting through pressure buildup).
The acid guts of a zinc battery (ZnCl?) are much more destructive than KOH BTW, it will quickly dissolve away PCB traces readily for instance. The change to alkaline cells (in the 70's?) was driven by the greater capacity, much better storage time and less problems with leakage - alkaline are significantly more expensive, and the smart people simply changed to NiCd and then NiMH to greatly reduce battery costs! These days the hybrid NiMH are a great choice. NiMH seems to leak a lot less than the NiCd they replaced too. NiCd were phased out as cadmium is highly poisonous and they had an awful memory effect, forgetting most of their capacity if not regularly deep-cycled. They also faded suddenly when fully discharged, without any warning.
Really old batteries nearly always leak as rubber seals seem to have a finite lifetime.
I wonder if leakage could be more prevalent in conditions where the current drawn is variable as well as a varying environmental temperature/barometric pressure/humidity etc.
One cheapo AAA so far did leak when i put it in my new flash light, tested like couple second. Put in drawer and i heard hissing noise and one battery did piss all over itself right there. That was fastest one to me. But itsj ust one in million honestly when that kind of stuff happens and you caught it.
My thought would be the dual battery holders with the resistor but discharge one battery to 50% so they are at different charge states. I remember reading multiple times that you are not supposed to mix batteries or charge states. I'm wondering if some sort of reverse charging excellerates deterioration.
I didn't realise the Duracells in my big Maglite night-stick had leaked until the light output fell off. It is now a solid block that I will have to drill the cells out of, GRR!
Leave the Duracell batts in your hp calc and I guarantee they will destroy it in 6 months.
The seal on the duracells look like they're slightly different lengths now, were they like that from the start?
Fail-safe should be, but is not a description we ever see on our important domestic products!
Got a Duracell expiry dated 2016 that is all crusty after sitting unused for all these years.
My opinion is that the main requirement for a battery is we get some useful life from the package, and that forgotten cells never get to destroy the product they are powering due to poor package design.
Mil spec batteries are designed for safe expiry, I have seen cells that are decades old without corrosion.