The description of the upslope debris field, with rocks gravity-sorted by size and weight and dropped out of the water surge, is just glorious pedagogical literature--a technical science narrative at the ultimate high end of both style and content. I am incredibly excited to hear about events that happened within human existence--17.4 kya, but only explicated in our lifetimes! Thank you to all the geologists who illuminated the dramatic history of North America. I feel grateful and humbled.
Thank you for this really informative video. I'm not a geologist by trade, but find this quite interesting in our western landscape's geological history. You did a great job explaining it and showing a really well-reasoned argument, which I think makes logical sense to me, to support your claims. Cheers from California.
Thank you. I also like Zentner's stuff, he really does a nice job of explaining things in an interesting manner. If you have further interest in Lake Bonneville, I wrote a peer-reviewed paper on my findings (greatly expanding on what is in the RUclips videos). The paper documents and supports my findings rewriting Lake Bonneville history. You can search for "Spedden", or follow the link: doi.org/10.32388/G4DAH0.3 Just a warning: the paper is quite long, but when you are an engineer disputing the conclusions of the luminaries in the field, you need to not only support your findings, but also show why the prior views are physically impossible ('physically' as in the root 'physics'). One of the things I explain in the paper is why Lake Bonneville fell from the Provo Level to the Great Salt Lake level. The conventional explanation is that it was all climate related. While there was a climate component, That wasn't the predominant factor.
Very interesting presentation. If there was sloshing back and fourth, I would expect that there was many tsunamis and that the opposite shore should show similar evidence. ?
Yes, you properly anticipated what is in the Part III video of this series. I like the way you are thinking: ' well, if that is true, then you would expect to see this..."
Absolutely love your videos and work.. with that being said, land slides also deposits large borders at their bottoms & smaller "rocks" as you move up in elevation.. Now I put forth a challenge to your theory & an alternative explanation to your "large" rock at the bottom & "smaller" rocks above at a greater elevation. I'm just trying to check every box before I believe your theory.. I also think that an earthquake hypothesis would need to be greater than an 8.3+ quake to provide us with enough movement & for that significant time to be considered as the cause of the Bonneville flood culprit and creator.. & from what i have read, im almost positive it happened on a Saturday evening & not a Tuesday 🤣😁🤣
Added question that your reference to fossils in lake bonniville sediments. We're there fish in the lake? I've gathered that lake maszula in Montana was surprisingly barren.
Yes and there are some really interesting papers on that. ( www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/developments-in-earth-surface-processes/vol/20/suppl/C ) Of course the really interesting question is always, how did the fish get there? Lake Bonneville was landlocked for much of its history. I'll let others speak to their research in that area. The next interesting question is were there humans living and fishing the shores of the lake at the time of the Bonneville Flood? In recent years evidence has been found suggesting human presence in other parts of North America at that time. Unfortunately, my findings of massive surging in the lake leading to the Bonneville Flood would have had dire consequences for any communities on the shore and would have scattered or destroyed any evidence.
These first 2 were fascinating, the old photos were very helpful in visualizing these areas!! I did have to do some Google searching (and still didn’t completely follow the graph @6:46). I watched an earthquake slosh a foot of water from a pool in Cali but extrapolating to imagine the path of these flood waters for such an extended period boggles my mind, especially after the Indonesian and Japanese tsunamis. I’ve tried to keep up on earthquake science since I’ve never lived in a non-earthquake zone. I wonder a few things. Might any of the U’s Wasatch fault conclusions be different if the cause of any other land features is due to water/rock shifting, not quake? The draw/Dimple Dell-was this cut by an iceberg; would it have melted last? From some kind of back-flow during sloshing? It’d be interesting to know if the flood pulled water from both ‘top’ & the bottom of moderately deep sections of the lake. One last, if this makes sense-if you were to drive from roughly center of the valley, up ~94th-114th, towards Bell Canyon…Is there a name to the middle of the “M” that shows well with lots of snow?
Dr. Janecke's paper is available online. That timeline graph is hers and she explains it well in the paper. Her work is consistently excellent and well-worth reading. Dimple Dell is a very old drainage, pre-dating Lake Bonneville.
Now getting to end of this vid and looking forward to part three you have me very intrested. Maybe should wait till after part three but if the 17.4 ka of event T is right how does that effect dating of the great floods acrost washington scablands since I believe the intertounging of flood debreas at [Clearwater idaho?] Say bonniville flood was after all but one of the montana floods? Thankyou for doing these videos!
Did Event T Bonneville release combine with one of many flood events from Lake Missoula? If so, it would create an even bigger Lake Lewis back up at Wallula Gap. I live in Yakima and Lake Lewis came all the way from Columbia River, up Yakima River, into Yakima Valley, 100 miles away.
I believe there is evidence for a tsunami type event in North Ogden. If you look at the Wasatch mountains starting north in Willard, moving south to North Ogden that portion of the range is almost sheer cliff and solid rock. There is a noticeable absence of soil. Iin North Ogden below Ben Lomond Peak there is an unusually large deposit of eroded materials. In high school I was told that deposition in North Ogden was an alluvial fan made up of sediment eroded from Ben Lomond peak . Looking north from Hillfield It does appear to be just that . However, when driving I 15 you can see that there is a massive pile of rubble between Pleasant view on the south and south Willard to the north . This material is north west from where it would be if it were the alluvial fan from Ben Lomond Peak, . If an earthquake caused a tsunami type event, splashing between the mountains to the west that make up promontory point to the Wasatch on the east, the large wave might have stripped the topsoil from the mountains, exposing the bedrock beneath. The material stripped away, now makes up the giant rubble pile between Pleasant view, and South Willard,..I noticed that there are a number of commercial rock quarry /gravel pit operations located on this unusual formation, That is my hypothesis anyway.
I have not studied that area, but from your description that is the type of evidence one would expect to find. The surge would be moving north at that point, so your observation that the deposits shifted north is consistent with your theory. Double check the elevations of the deposits to see if they are from the Bonneville level event or the Provo level event. Good observational/detective work and thank you, it is fun for me to see someone else thinking through the evidence. If you are interested, a year ago I was trying to tie up loose ends in the process of writing a paper and ended up extending the Bonneville timeline back to about 40,000 years ago with additional events and explaining most of the other Bonneville shorelines, including G.K. Gilbert's "intermediate shorelines". This paper has now been published and is available online on the Qeios website; search on Lake Bonneville. There is a fun one towards the end of that paper dealing with why Lake Bonneville rapidly fell from the Provo level only to stop at the Great Salt Lake level.
Do they even agree that their was a lake Bonneville? If yes. Then what are they saying happened to the lake? It surly did not just go poof. Thinking that some of them will be back up there looking over the area again. You realize that many times change can be slow. Thank you for this comprehensive and informative video. God bless
On the Lake Bonneville question, that is a "yes": the shorelines, the lake sediments (and embedded aquatic flora and fauna), the flood evidence; enjoy envisioning the massive blue freshwater lake, it is a pretty safe thing to believe in and I haven't found anyone questioning it yet. After the Bonneville Flood, the lake remained at the "Provo level" for a couple of thousand years with an outflow up at Red Rock pass. Eventually, the climate changed enough so that the lake was evaporating more quickly than water was flowing in. Since that time, there have been periods when the rains came and the lake rose or the drop paused for a bit. Unfortunately, the trend has continued downward. This has some serious ramifications for us today. The current extended draught in the west (which could just be the new status quo) and our rapidly increasing use of the water flowing in has exacerbated the problem. Some have estimated that the Great Salt Lake contributes about 10% of the snows in the Wasatch due to lake effect (the same thing which gives Buffalo so much snow). The problem is that lake effect is dependent on surface area. The lake is now roughly half the size it was in 1983. That land is now a vast mudflat and when a front moves across it giving us one of our areas mud storms, the chemicals in the mud adversely affects the air quality on the Wasatch front. Sorry for drifting into areas beyond your question, but since you followed the videos all the way through (impressive), you know that once you start studying something you end up learning a bunch of peripheral stuff in the process, and it may turn out to be the most important stuff. Fortunately, we do have a near-term ability to impact how quickly the Great Salt Lake drops, but like anything it will require a collective will and an understanding of the science could help.
@@57strub I’m looking forward to someone dating the massive-flood stories across so many cultures distant from the Middle East. The similarities are interesting.
Love your content i walk these areas and have natureal resource mgt bs. One ???? I picked up inbthis one is beryllium 11 being used to date rock deposition....and all i could think was the blue snow storms derived from kennecott smelter burning off berryllium .. there is a guy i met who lives right at the dimple dell horse parking lot. He did several rain catch water heavy metals testing to find extreamly toxic levels of metals falling out with really only one possible source. Anyhow i have ?? The accuracy of comparitive dates along WF to align for an event... perhaps this accounts for the varryiance / margin of error
That would be true if there wasn't a lengthy peer-reviewed paper supporting these findings. Where were you during the 50 years when people were suggesting that the Stansbury Oscillation which resulted in shoreline variations of less than 10m in the center of the lake and 45m at the extremes was due to massive climate oscillations? Please feel free to regale us with plausible explanations of any of the features I cite, because the previous "theories" are definitely a case of the Emperor Has No Cloths. (Note to everyone else: the standard practice is to just delete comments like this and get on with life, but these sorts of pot shots are why the field of geology is often such a target in the broader scientific community).
Sheesh, that is a well argued set of theories backed up by amazing observations and insight across different fields making a solid case.
The description of the upslope debris field, with rocks gravity-sorted by size and weight and dropped out of the water surge, is just glorious pedagogical literature--a technical science narrative at the ultimate high end of both style and content.
I am incredibly excited to hear about events that happened within human existence--17.4 kya, but only explicated in our lifetimes! Thank you to all the geologists who illuminated the dramatic history of North America. I feel grateful and humbled.
After reading about the height of Lituya Bay tsunami, the placement of the large boulders upslope makes perfect sense.
Thank you for this really informative video. I'm not a geologist by trade, but find this quite interesting in our western landscape's geological history. You did a great job explaining it and showing a really well-reasoned argument, which I think makes logical sense to me, to support your claims. Cheers from California.
Thank You for this video.
"...on a Tuesday."
I was just beginning to wonder if you have a sense of humor. Yes, you do.
Incredible work
Nicely explained, thanks. You and Zentner.
Thank you. I also like Zentner's stuff, he really does a nice job of explaining things in an interesting manner. If you have further interest in Lake Bonneville, I wrote a peer-reviewed paper on my findings (greatly expanding on what is in the RUclips videos). The paper documents and supports my findings rewriting Lake Bonneville history. You can search for "Spedden", or follow the link: doi.org/10.32388/G4DAH0.3 Just a warning: the paper is quite long, but when you are an engineer disputing the conclusions of the luminaries in the field, you need to not only support your findings, but also show why the prior views are physically impossible ('physically' as in the root 'physics'). One of the things I explain in the paper is why Lake Bonneville fell from the Provo Level to the Great Salt Lake level. The conventional explanation is that it was all climate related. While there was a climate component, That wasn't the predominant factor.
Your argument was compelling
Very interesting presentation. If there was sloshing back and fourth, I would expect that there was many tsunamis and that the opposite shore should show similar evidence. ?
Yes, you properly anticipated what is in the Part III video of this series. I like the way you are thinking: ' well, if that is true, then you would expect to see this..."
Thanks for these - a great service!
Great work!
I've been puttering around the American Southwest for 70 years (admittedly not astutely in the early years), since about four months before my fourth birthday, in ways up close and personal. Long before fences and interstates, I got to know the landscapes of the Colorado Plateau, in particular, and the American West, in general, from the ground up, plaing on Anasazi ruins, clambering over volcanic ejecta, splashing in the rivers, lakes, and stockponds scattered across the region, and slowly beginning to recognize the patterns and complexities inherent in the make-up of the canyons, valleys, and mountains.
The region, as it appears today, is not tens of thousands of years old, much less "millions of years", as geologists, and others, claim. Undoubtedly, the rocks are ancient, beyond calculation, but their present appearance, location, and position are not. The strata in the Grand Canyon, and elsewhere, are millions, even billions, of years old, but their exposure to view is far more recent. There is no "unconformity", only a strata pushed by the weight of the oncoming southern states' express, as noted elsewhere, arriving, pushing a piece of crust from its former location. We recognize synclines in other locations, but not in the Colorado Plateau?
I recognize your bringing the number down to low double-digits is a significant, if long overdue, step. When I was in college, in my Geology class the professor said the Sandia Crest was about 10,000 years old, in his opinion, but common theory had it at hundreds of thousands of years ago. It's comforting to put catastrophes of the size I speak into the distant past, where they cannot treaten us. However comforting, it's a fantasy view of the making of this world.
The Great Salt Lake is a remnant of a "flood" (tsunami) probably caused by the Tower of Babel incident, more or less the story of a "big" earthquake. Like India ramming into southern Asia's marshy expanse on the "south" side of the Great Asian Sea separating Asia from Europe "big". That collision expressed water through the Bosporus/Dardanelles, onto the Grecian archipelago, creating the features we know, today. That water continued across the mainland, into the Adriatic, then across Italy, into the Tyrrhenian Sea! Water flooded across most of Turkey, emptying into the deepest part of the Mediterranean, at the eastern end, where the water coming out of the Bosporus crested Crete, to carve the depths south of the island.
The repercussions of that kind of disruption to Earth's tectonic plates would have rippled around the world, sending a wall of water maybe a half-mile high racing westward (again "", all directions are modern), across southern Wyoming and northern Colorado, into southern Idaho, to splash against the Cascades, and Sierras, before turning south, the only low ground, into the Great Basin. Some of that half-billion acre-feet (or more) was diverted southerly, into northern Utah, to empty into southern Utah, at a point north of Green River, where a whole lotta water ate out the saddle that had been there, twenty-five miles back into the plateau on the north side.
If it would take 191 years to empty Lake Superior, as informed people say, that channel poured water out onto the lower plain for centuries. The water carved out the intricacies of Arches and Canyonlands National Parks, continuing as it caromed down the Grand Staircase, to puddle in the basin bounded by the Mogollon Rim, on the south, and the Uintah Mountains on the north, the San Francisco Peaks and Kaibab Plateau, on the west, and the Sierra Nacimientos on the east. An inland sea, almost 400 miles in diameter, a remnant of that "flood" (or tsunami), lay atop the Four Corners region for almost two millennia.
The Anasazi built a large trading empire, from their communities around that "sea", lasting for most of a millennium, before they trooped away, in search of greener pastures. Why would they leave everything? Water. Life-giving, life-sustaining water was no longer easily available. The Anasazi had kept wandering, after establishing their "capitol" at Chaco, all the way south to mingle with the Mayans, and Olmecs, probably still confused by the sudden changes in their locales. They'd been basking off the coast of Africa, loosely connected to the areas north of them, where the ancient ancestors of the Seminoles, the "mound builders" had lived, and quite possibly, further north, where the Gaels lived.
The ancient past was filled with jaw-dropping moments like that, where mountains pushed up through the earth, soaring into the skies, and rivers changed courses (see how the North Platte meanders around, across Wyoming), and great waves of water came rushing across the landscape, devouring whole forests, leveling hills, carving great canyons, in the twinkling of an eye. There are no eyewitnesses to these events, none who left any kind of record, but the record of stones and bones speaks to far more violent times than are accounted for in most theories.
Whatever "ancient" Earth looked like is anyone's guess, at this point. I can show you places where "old" planes still exist, as slopes of a mountain, or atop a ridge thousands of feet above where it continued. The West is filled with examples of violent, sudden, and unimaginable displacements of tons of rock. Water played an important part, during these events, mostly like a bathtub full of water, suddenly lifted, and dropped back to an unlevel position. Water reacts poorly to things like that. The old adage "Water seeks its own level" is painfully true, and as painfully, inescapable.
©BW2024 COPYRIGHT RETAINED BY AUTHOR 05/30/2024
anarchitek™
Absolutely love your videos and work.. with that being said, land slides also deposits large borders at their bottoms & smaller "rocks" as you move up in elevation..
Now I put forth a challenge to your theory & an alternative explanation to your "large" rock at the bottom & "smaller" rocks above at a greater elevation. I'm just trying to check every box before I believe your theory..
I also think that an earthquake hypothesis would need to be greater than an 8.3+ quake to provide us with enough movement & for that significant time to be considered as the cause of the Bonneville flood culprit and creator..
& from what i have read, im almost positive it happened on a Saturday evening & not a Tuesday 🤣😁🤣
Thanks for visuals
I always wondered what triggered lake Bonneville to go over Redrock canyon.
Added question that your reference to fossils in lake bonniville sediments. We're there fish in the lake? I've gathered that lake maszula in Montana was surprisingly barren.
Yes and there are some really interesting papers on that. ( www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/developments-in-earth-surface-processes/vol/20/suppl/C ) Of course the really interesting question is always, how did the fish get there? Lake Bonneville was landlocked for much of its history. I'll let others speak to their research in that area. The next interesting question is were there humans living and fishing the shores of the lake at the time of the Bonneville Flood? In recent years evidence has been found suggesting human presence in other parts of North America at that time. Unfortunately, my findings of massive surging in the lake leading to the Bonneville Flood would have had dire consequences for any communities on the shore and would have scattered or destroyed any evidence.
These first 2 were fascinating, the old photos were very helpful in visualizing these areas!! I did have to do some Google searching (and still didn’t completely follow the graph @6:46).
I watched an earthquake slosh a foot of water from a pool in Cali but extrapolating to imagine the path of these flood waters for such an extended period boggles my mind, especially after the Indonesian and Japanese tsunamis.
I’ve tried to keep up on earthquake science since I’ve never lived in a non-earthquake zone.
I wonder a few things. Might any of the U’s Wasatch fault conclusions be different if the cause of any other land features is due to water/rock shifting, not quake? The draw/Dimple Dell-was this cut by an iceberg; would it have melted last? From some kind of back-flow during sloshing? It’d be interesting to know if the flood pulled water from both ‘top’ & the bottom of moderately deep sections of the lake.
One last, if this makes sense-if you were to drive from roughly center of the valley, up ~94th-114th, towards Bell Canyon…Is there a name to the middle of the “M” that shows well with lots of snow?
Dr. Janecke's paper is available online. That timeline graph is hers and she explains it well in the paper. Her work is consistently excellent and well-worth reading. Dimple Dell is a very old drainage, pre-dating Lake Bonneville.
Now getting to end of this vid and looking forward to part three you have me very intrested. Maybe should wait till after part three but if the 17.4 ka of event T is right how does that effect dating of the great floods acrost washington scablands since I believe the intertounging of flood debreas at [Clearwater idaho?] Say bonniville flood was after all but one of the montana floods? Thankyou for doing these videos!
Doesn't change the sequence, since that is based on the sequence of deposits. The dating really comes down to carbon or calibrated.
How was the Bonneville flood calculated?
Did Event T Bonneville release combine with one of many flood events from Lake Missoula? If so, it would create an even bigger Lake Lewis back up at Wallula Gap. I live in Yakima and Lake Lewis came all the way from Columbia River, up Yakima River, into Yakima Valley, 100 miles away.
Not an area I studied.
It always a Tuesday...
I believe there is evidence for a tsunami type event in North Ogden. If you look at the Wasatch mountains starting north in Willard, moving south to North Ogden that portion of the range is almost sheer cliff and solid rock. There is a noticeable absence of soil. Iin North Ogden below Ben Lomond Peak there is an unusually large deposit of eroded materials. In high school I was told that deposition in North Ogden was an alluvial fan made up of sediment eroded from Ben Lomond peak . Looking north from Hillfield It does appear to be just that . However, when driving I 15 you can see that there is a massive pile of rubble between Pleasant view on the south and south Willard to the north .
This material is north west from where it would be if it were the alluvial fan from Ben Lomond Peak, . If an earthquake caused a tsunami type event, splashing between the mountains to the west that make up promontory point to the Wasatch on the east, the large wave might have stripped the topsoil from the mountains, exposing the bedrock beneath. The material stripped away, now makes up the giant rubble pile between Pleasant view, and South Willard,..I noticed that there are a number of commercial rock quarry /gravel pit operations located on this unusual formation, That is my hypothesis anyway.
I have not studied that area, but from your description that is the type of evidence one would expect to find. The surge would be moving north at that point, so your observation that the deposits shifted north is consistent with your theory. Double check the elevations of the deposits to see if they are from the Bonneville level event or the Provo level event. Good observational/detective work and thank you, it is fun for me to see someone else thinking through the evidence.
If you are interested, a year ago I was trying to tie up loose ends in the process of writing a paper and ended up extending the Bonneville timeline back to about 40,000 years ago with additional events and explaining most of the other Bonneville shorelines, including G.K. Gilbert's "intermediate shorelines". This paper has now been published and is available online on the Qeios website; search on Lake Bonneville. There is a fun one towards the end of that paper dealing with why Lake Bonneville rapidly fell from the Provo level only to stop at the Great Salt Lake level.
The size of the lake would have staggering
Do they even agree that their was a lake Bonneville? If yes. Then what are they saying happened to the lake? It surly did not just go poof.
Thinking that some of them will be back up there looking over the area again. You realize that many times change can be slow.
Thank you for this comprehensive and informative video.
God bless
On the Lake Bonneville question, that is a "yes": the shorelines, the lake sediments (and embedded aquatic flora and fauna), the flood evidence; enjoy envisioning the massive blue freshwater lake, it is a pretty safe thing to believe in and I haven't found anyone questioning it yet. After the Bonneville Flood, the lake remained at the "Provo level" for a couple of thousand years with an outflow up at Red Rock pass. Eventually, the climate changed enough so that the lake was evaporating more quickly than water was flowing in. Since that time, there have been periods when the rains came and the lake rose or the drop paused for a bit. Unfortunately, the trend has continued downward. This has some serious ramifications for us today. The current extended draught in the west (which could just be the new status quo) and our rapidly increasing use of the water flowing in has exacerbated the problem. Some have estimated that the Great Salt Lake contributes about 10% of the snows in the Wasatch due to lake effect (the same thing which gives Buffalo so much snow). The problem is that lake effect is dependent on surface area. The lake is now roughly half the size it was in 1983. That land is now a vast mudflat and when a front moves across it giving us one of our areas mud storms, the chemicals in the mud adversely affects the air quality on the Wasatch front.
Sorry for drifting into areas beyond your question, but since you followed the videos all the way through (impressive), you know that once you start studying something you end up learning a bunch of peripheral stuff in the process, and it may turn out to be the most important stuff.
Fortunately, we do have a near-term ability to impact how quickly the Great Salt Lake drops, but like anything it will require a collective will and an understanding of the science could help.
Especially if the facts and evidence validate the record in Genesis of the creation and the flood.
@@acheloua7919 The facts and evidence found throughout the world invalidate the genesis story.
@@57strub I’m looking forward to someone dating the massive-flood stories across so many cultures distant from the Middle East. The similarities are interesting.
See 20 foot+ displacement of the Seattle Fault 900 CE that also created a tsunami in Puget Sound as investigated by Richard Waite.
Love your content i walk these areas and have natureal resource mgt bs. One ???? I picked up inbthis one is beryllium 11 being used to date rock deposition....and all i could think was the blue snow storms derived from kennecott smelter burning off berryllium .. there is a guy i met who lives right at the dimple dell horse parking lot. He did several rain catch water heavy metals testing to find extreamly toxic levels of metals falling out with really only one possible source. Anyhow i have ?? The accuracy of comparitive dates along WF to align for an event... perhaps this accounts for the varryiance / margin of error
folks need to come to understand that "theory" used in these contexts means hypothesis.
That would be true if there wasn't a lengthy peer-reviewed paper supporting these findings. Where were you during the 50 years when people were suggesting that the Stansbury Oscillation which resulted in shoreline variations of less than 10m in the center of the lake and 45m at the extremes was due to massive climate oscillations? Please feel free to regale us with plausible explanations of any of the features I cite, because the previous "theories" are definitely a case of the Emperor Has No Cloths. (Note to everyone else: the standard practice is to just delete comments like this and get on with life, but these sorts of pot shots are why the field of geology is often such a target in the broader scientific community).
Well, I'M a believer!!!
I don't trust your theories with extensive ads.The interruption for you to get paid is greater than your theories
He has just over 600 subscribers, and only 370 likes. This isn't a money-making video.