I watched David Vizards recent video on quench and he mentioned your channel. I had to come visit and tho this is over my head technicaly, I understand what you're describing. On to part three.... Great explanations. You and David are into high performance, but it would be fun to see something along these same lines for daily driven vehicles and aimed at peak efficiency.... combustion efficiency and mileage on a typical engine, say 350 or 375 hp that peaks under 6000 rpm. Anyway, a shout-out to David for throwing out your channel. 👍
Thanbk you. I have not posted any more on this channel becuse we are putting toegther an entirely new one. This time with a team of profesionals just like me...
The discharge chamber/valve side of the head is where all the action is. everyone was flowing heads with the business end down, i.e. chambers down, looking at the raw flow numbers on the display for decades. Pointing the chambers up and out into room is much more revealing. Even if flowed dry, with a velocity probe around chamber and no bore tube, it reveals a lot.
I was a production chemist in a past life. That wet flow bench just needed a condenser system on it to reclaim 100% of the volatilized test liquid. With that much volumetric flow you're looking at something similar to what we used for DNR/EPA compliance; -25deg Celsius cooling liquid and a few seconds of retention time.
We used Isopar-C with Ok results. Much of it evaportated in the sytem before being reclaimed. Ended up just using 50/50 Alky and water to mimic Spec-Grav becuse it was one tenth the cost. Have not been on the Wet bench in two years because I have not developed any heads from a clean sheet of paper in that time.
Speaking of narrow angles, Ford built the FE at 13 degrees and when racing them, plug wetting was not problem as it has been observed. I have an engine that I built in 1999 that is still running perfectly, no ring wear, leakdown is like new, no blowby or oil consumption. The heads are C4AE-G and I have to wonder what Ford knew that made these heads work so well? I ported these myself intuitively from listening to you and avoiding the trick of the week stuff and used what Ford gave up and on to the Cleveland and the Yates heads along with motorcycles. The head had so much right that there was little to do that would not lose what you have. I am blind now. But I would love to hear your thoughts about it.
@@chaseman113 I have a Holley Street Dominator that has long and very good runners as far as equal length runners as far as rise, turn, and curvature.,it is amazingly like Fords racing manifolds in how well they turn in to the head ports. I can see why they won so many races.,
There are at least 20 people i can think of that know what I know. My pears and competitors are intelegent dare i say genius. Competing agianst them is what drives me. I would never dare to say I am the best. I am just the only person out here talking about these topics.
Why are intake ports rectangular instead of rounded or cylindrical like the valve itself????? What would happen if you contoured/dished-out the length of the ramp floor slightly into a "U-Shape" the full length of the ramp floor......sort of like the shape of a "Water-Park" slide 1/2 tunnel shape, OR, the opposite & give the ramp floor an arch-shape????? Is either of those shapes common practice to help evenly distribute the air/fuel charge across the entire port instead of it being concentrated in one area????? Which again, brings me back to my remedial thoughts of why the entire port length is not fully cylindrical, or tubed shapped like a TPI runner? Your expert explanation is greatly appreciated.......however, I'd never port a head & leave to a professional!!!!!
Short answe for intake ports I think is pushrods box things in and so to get cross section... go square. Like you I marvel at misses of decades past, especially corner radius often being too tight - oval seems to serve up more consistent velocity by cross section.
23:27 Why dont the Pro Mod Nitrous engines run alcohol? Besides the rules...Would the increased mass of alcohol (vs. Gasoline) help slow down the flame speed?
There is a finite amount of power you can produce with alcohol and nitrous. Hundreds of HP less than you can make with gas. Why is that you ask? I really dont know. I have heard that it freezes the fuel and other theories. I never looked into it so I cant give you an educated opinion as to why. The nitrous is 65 below zero coming out of that nozzle. That alone causes issues with gas but alcohol is a disaster
I was hoping I'd see this discussion some day! I'm playing with the idea of NA street alcohol engines. The idea is that if the engine is above the boiling point of the fuel, then the fuel will ledenfrost off the cylinder and plug. In theory, on paper, At an AFR of 6.1 on alcohol, there's enough latent heat of vaporization in the fuel to drop the air temp about 200 degrees, Kelvin or 400 degrees Fahrenheit. With 10:1 compression as the base, it should be able to get close to a 600F cylinder temperature just from compression, which leaves you with 200F cylinder temp with fuel, before the plugs fire. I do intend to test this, but haven't really set up a valid test. The 200-400 degree temperature drop agrees with blowers becoming cold. The plug wetting makes only partial sense. If you have a 160 degree cylinder head, and your fuel boils at 250F, then yes, the fuel should snuff out the plug. But, plugs get heat discoloration at 340-500F. On top of that, I might be able to get a good test on Methanol, but how do I know specifically what's in my gas. Straight Iso-octane is different from straight Toluene or Benzene.
@@luckyPiston When a liquid touches a surface that's much higher than its boiling point, the liquid droplets will float above the surface instead of wetting it.
Darin, I'm not sure if i can word this properly and putting it simply it seems to me that the main goal of modifying a port, whether it be the cross sectional area or the shape, is to improve the airflow around the valve. Every time you measure and modify the velocity gradients, every time you change the port shape no matter where it is in the port the sole goal is to improve the ability of the air to efficiently move around the valve and into the cylinder. Is this correct?
No thats not correct. We are trying to optimize valve efficiency by attaining a high discharge coefficient at the throat over the entire flow curve which tells us we are " getting the air around the valve" very efficiently. ( Also called Effective flow area) We are also optimizing the area, air speeds and air speed change over time in order to create a Ram Effect known as Inertia supercharging. That in turn sets up Harmonics in the intake tract that help raise pressure at intake valve opening. This is a very simple definition of what goes on.
At what lift do you test? It seems very low...have you tested at the venturi convergence lift or higher? At SAE WCX 2019 I learned that "preignition" and "detonation" are misnomers. It's always auto-ignition. they can plot pressure over time and account for all the fuel being burned...up to 70% can spontaneously ignite. it's true that "hot spots" are a myth. You're also confusing surface area to volume ratio with surface area. Hemis have the lowest SA:V ratio, pentroof have very high SA:V ratios. it's simple to prove it with math.
@@TaylorJensen-ys2cv I have built clear manifolds & did the spintron with smoke machine,like smokey & you can see some stuff happening but. Unless you got millions laying around your just pissing in the wind lol
@@jackwillson8099 on both the G3 and Hemi 99 we used a camera in a spark plug hole , intake track cut and plexied off on the G3 , we where comparing the AFR big bear head to the pre Eagle 5.7 and the effect of soften the chambers on an Eagle head ...seriously could you imagine where people like Bob Glidden or Dick Maxwell(sp) would have taken Pro stock if they had this type of tech to play with. ....FWIW Isopar C is $14.50 gal, Min order from Exxon is 5 gal , last drum I purchased was $725, last quote was 744.
I am wondering how you get an engine to run w/o a piston in the cylinder. I think maybe you better change your form of thinking and find a way to wet flow the head with a piston in the bore. The wet flow bench I built 35 years ago does just that, but I also run the entire system along with the carburetor. The true measure of how efficient a cylinder head is, is in how much timing does the engine require to make best power. The less timing the faster the burn.
The ignition timing is primarily a function of chamber efficiency (surface volume to area ratio and shape) in conjunction with the fuel being used . Burn rate is effected very little by variations in induction system efficiency or even VE for that matter.
Thats only if the Dioxane, propylene Oxide, Tetra ethyl lead, chlorinated cleaners, aluminum dust, benzene, and other chemicals dont get me first. I have reserved myself to he fact that my cancer risk is elevated due to my history. I dont think the dye is a bog deal. LOL
If you have a poorly designed engine that’s down 100hp from your competitors and double the inlet pressure, your now down 200hp or more. Triple the inlet pressure, your now down 300hp. This approach will get your ass kicked on the race track. Inefficiencies do not magically vanish with super charging. They compound.
I watched David Vizards recent video on quench and he mentioned your channel. I had to come visit and tho this is over my head technicaly, I understand what you're describing.
On to part three....
Great explanations.
You and David are into high performance, but it would be fun to see something along these same lines for daily driven vehicles and aimed at peak efficiency.... combustion efficiency and mileage on a typical engine, say 350 or 375 hp that peaks under 6000 rpm.
Anyway, a shout-out to David for throwing out your channel. 👍
Thank you Darin! I’m a young engineer just learning to build engines and I can really appreciate this information. 👍🏼👍🏼
DARIN I WATCHED PART 1 THEN PART 2 , MAN THESE ARE THE BEST VIDEOS IVE EVER SEEN, THANK YOU
You are doing a service to all aspiring engine builders, thankyou 🙂
Thanbk you. I have not posted any more on this channel becuse we are putting toegther an entirely new one. This time with a team of profesionals just like me...
Excellent channel, thank you very much for these videos.
The discharge chamber/valve side of the head is where all the action is. everyone was flowing heads with the business end down, i.e. chambers down, looking at the raw flow numbers on the display for decades. Pointing the chambers up and out into room is much more revealing. Even if flowed dry, with a velocity probe around chamber and no bore tube, it reveals a lot.
You should team up with smartereveryday and figure how to film the plume with high speed cameras. I bet Destin would be thrilled to do it.
Camera + UV... I think maybe a yellow filter would make contrast pop, and shoot in black & white.
We used a full radius seat on our Super Stock Hemi's, and I also added fins inside the intake ports.
On my harley heads you make more power with a radius intake seat they are a hemi head & you don't have longer intake runners
This is why I like Diesels for combustion efficiency.
Diesels are very hard to get right.
I was a production chemist in a past life. That wet flow bench just needed a condenser system on it to reclaim 100% of the volatilized test liquid. With that much volumetric flow you're looking at something similar to what we used for DNR/EPA compliance; -25deg Celsius cooling liquid and a few seconds of retention time.
We used Isopar-C with Ok results. Much of it evaportated in the sytem before being reclaimed. Ended up just using 50/50 Alky and water to mimic Spec-Grav becuse it was one tenth the cost. Have not been on the Wet bench in two years because I have not developed any heads from a clean sheet of paper in that time.
@@darinmorgan3520 thank you sincerely for sharing your experience, it is truly priceless.
Wow....very well explained 👏. Thanks!
Thx for sharing ... 👍
Speaking of narrow angles, Ford built the FE at 13 degrees and when racing them, plug wetting was not problem as it has been observed. I have an engine that I built in 1999 that is still running perfectly, no ring wear, leakdown is like new, no blowby or oil consumption. The heads are C4AE-G and I have to wonder what Ford knew that made these heads work so well? I ported these myself intuitively from listening to you and avoiding the trick of the week stuff and used what Ford gave up and on to the Cleveland and the Yates heads along with motorcycles. The head had so much right that there was little to do that would not lose what you have. I am blind now. But I would love to hear your thoughts about it.
Cool to hear about your experience. Which intake did you have?
I have a 390 in my pick up and adore my old v8.
@@chaseman113 I have a Holley Street Dominator that has long and very good runners as far as equal length runners as far as rise, turn, and curvature.,it is amazingly like Fords racing manifolds in how well they turn in to the head ports. I can see why they won so many races.,
Just curious how do things change when there’s a piston in the bore?
smart!.....
The master hands down !
There are at least 20 people i can think of that know what I know. My pears and competitors are intelegent dare i say genius. Competing agianst them is what drives me. I would never dare to say I am the best. I am just the only person out here talking about these topics.
On the compression stroke the valves are closed at top dead centre so wouldn't the rising piston top influence the gas flow more?
Ha - the exact science of combustion chamber designs:)
Why are intake ports rectangular instead of rounded or cylindrical like the valve itself?????
What would happen if you contoured/dished-out the length of the ramp floor slightly into a "U-Shape" the full length of the ramp floor......sort of like the shape of a "Water-Park" slide 1/2 tunnel shape, OR, the opposite & give the ramp floor an arch-shape?????
Is either of those shapes common practice to help evenly distribute the air/fuel charge across the entire port instead of it being concentrated in one area?????
Which again, brings me back to my remedial thoughts of why the entire port length is not fully cylindrical, or tubed shapped like a TPI runner?
Your expert explanation is greatly appreciated.......however, I'd never port a head & leave to a professional!!!!!
Short answe for intake ports I think is pushrods box things in and so to get cross section... go square. Like you I marvel at misses of decades past, especially corner radius often being too tight - oval seems to serve up more consistent velocity by cross section.
a few led’s in the correct spot would catch ever vapour when done in the dark
Thanks for video!
Do u go into detail about plug letting
Thanks DARIN!!
Darin, just a question: what can be done to move the vortex to above the spark plug?
put a vane in the roof of the bowl
23:27 Why dont the Pro Mod Nitrous engines run alcohol? Besides the rules...Would the increased mass of alcohol (vs. Gasoline) help slow down the flame speed?
There is a finite amount of power you can produce with alcohol and nitrous. Hundreds of HP less than you can make with gas. Why is that you ask? I really dont know. I have heard that it freezes the fuel and other theories. I never looked into it so I cant give you an educated opinion as to why. The nitrous is 65 below zero coming out of that nozzle. That alone causes issues with gas but alcohol is a disaster
@@darinmorgan3520 I did not think about the extreme cooling effect with N2O and Alky. That's an interesting idea.
Congrats on your new job at BES.
I was hoping I'd see this discussion some day! I'm playing with the idea of NA street alcohol engines. The idea is that if the engine is above the boiling point of the fuel, then the fuel will ledenfrost off the cylinder and plug.
In theory, on paper, At an AFR of 6.1 on alcohol, there's enough latent heat of vaporization in the fuel to drop the air temp about 200 degrees, Kelvin or 400 degrees Fahrenheit.
With 10:1 compression as the base, it should be able to get close to a 600F cylinder temperature just from compression, which leaves you with 200F cylinder temp with fuel, before the plugs fire.
I do intend to test this, but haven't really set up a valid test. The 200-400 degree temperature drop agrees with blowers becoming cold. The plug wetting makes only partial sense. If you have a 160 degree cylinder head, and your fuel boils at 250F, then yes, the fuel should snuff out the plug. But, plugs get heat discoloration at 340-500F. On top of that, I might be able to get a good test on Methanol, but how do I know specifically what's in my gas. Straight Iso-octane is different from straight Toluene or Benzene.
@@Dr_Xyzt What is ledenfrost ?
@@luckyPiston When a liquid touches a surface that's much higher than its boiling point, the liquid droplets will float above the surface instead of wetting it.
Darin,
I'm not sure if i can word this properly and putting it simply it seems to me that the main goal of modifying a port, whether it be the cross sectional area or the shape, is to improve the airflow around the valve. Every time you measure and modify the velocity gradients, every time you change the port shape no matter where it is in the port the sole goal is to improve the ability of the air to efficiently move around the valve and into the cylinder. Is this correct?
No thats not correct.
We are trying to optimize valve efficiency by attaining a high discharge coefficient at the throat over the entire flow curve which tells us we are " getting the air around the valve" very efficiently. ( Also called Effective flow area)
We are also optimizing the area, air speeds and air speed change over time in order to create a Ram Effect known as Inertia supercharging. That in turn sets up Harmonics in the intake tract that help raise pressure at intake valve opening. This is a very simple definition of what goes on.
@@darinmorgan3520 Thank you
At what lift do you test? It seems very low...have you tested at the venturi convergence lift or higher?
At SAE WCX 2019 I learned that "preignition" and "detonation" are misnomers. It's always auto-ignition. they can plot pressure over time and account for all the fuel being burned...up to 70% can spontaneously ignite. it's true that "hot spots" are a myth. You're also confusing surface area to volume ratio with surface area. Hemis have the lowest SA:V ratio, pentroof have very high SA:V ratios. it's simple to prove it with math.
Is it still spontaneous if it is consistently part of a chain reaction ?
Still can get the wet or standard flow bench to test a running engine lol
No , but when you figure out how to hook it up to a spintron......
@@TaylorJensen-ys2cv I have built clear manifolds & did the spintron with smoke machine,like smokey & you can see some stuff happening but. Unless you got millions laying around your just pissing in the wind lol
@@jackwillson8099 on both the G3 and Hemi 99 we used a camera in a spark plug hole , intake track cut and plexied off on the G3 , we where comparing the AFR big bear head to the pre Eagle 5.7 and the effect of soften the chambers on an Eagle head ...seriously could you imagine where people like Bob Glidden or Dick Maxwell(sp) would have taken Pro stock if they had this type of tech to play with.
....FWIW Isopar C is $14.50 gal, Min order from Exxon is 5 gal , last drum I purchased was $725, last quote was 744.
I'm starting to think about lpg now instead of gasoline
I like my fuel around 1.139🤣
I am wondering how you get an engine to run w/o a piston in the cylinder. I think maybe you better change your form of thinking and find a way to wet flow the head with a piston in the bore. The wet flow bench I built 35 years ago does just that, but I also run the entire system along with the carburetor. The true measure of how efficient a cylinder head is, is in how much timing does the engine require to make best power. The less timing the faster the burn.
The ignition timing is primarily a function of chamber efficiency (surface volume to area ratio and shape) in conjunction with the fuel being used . Burn rate is effected very little by variations in induction system efficiency or even VE for that matter.
@@darinmorgan3520 So what have you seen as the lowest timing needed to make best power in the testing you have done?
@@racerd9669 The lowest timing at the highest engine speed, 27 degrees at 10500rpm on a two valve head. 31cc chamber
I would like to know how u can have flow when u are basically plugging the system with a piston ?
@@luckyPiston Its called thinking outside the box. I even change the piston hgt. in the bore and look at wet flow changes as the chamber area changes.
Y’all gonna end up with lung cancer from the dye. Don’t listen to me. Laugh.
Thats only if the Dioxane, propylene Oxide, Tetra ethyl lead, chlorinated cleaners, aluminum dust, benzene, and other chemicals dont get me first. I have reserved myself to he fact that my cancer risk is elevated due to my history. I dont think the dye is a bog deal. LOL
Just turbo charge it.
WAY more horsepower, and you can throw your flowbench and porting tools in the dumpster.
If you have a poorly designed engine that’s down 100hp from your competitors and double the inlet pressure, your now down 200hp or more. Triple the inlet pressure, your now down 300hp. This approach will get your ass kicked on the race track. Inefficiencies do not magically vanish with super charging. They compound.
I can guess there age, knowledge, and ability to have mom buy there turbos