I envision permaculture or ecological design as another commonality that can unite people instead of divide us. Just think that if everywhere you go on planet Earth, the local folks were practicing permaculture in their own way. And we could TALK about that, instead of all of the other things that we choose to do to divide ourselves. Like following different religions, etc.
Permaculture design resonates with many spiritually inclined people because it's a practical and functional way of being good stewards of the earth, which is inherent in all religious practices. It is way to harmonize our environment with our inherent need for spirituality, something which is deeply lacking in our current society. It also helps us to realize that there is some greater force that is in control and that all we must do is harmonize and work with it instead of trying to control or work against it.
Oh boy. You are a courageous woman and i appreciate the thoughtful balanced way you addressed what is clearly a sticky and thorny topic. What a lot of folks may not have taken the time to recognize is that our individual worldview, moral compass, upbringing, etc all influence and affect the way we live our life, conduct ourselves with others and interact with the world around us . And for some reason the human race seems hellbent on putting labels on everything, and then fighting over the labels. Patience, grace, and an open mind will go very far in helping us learn to listen and respect others who are different from us. Thank you for modeling that.
This was a great video, thank you for opening this discussion. Only yesterday I ran into a permaculture practitioner who professed , up front that she is deeply rooted in her Christian beliefs. As her video progressed, her religious beliefs dominated everything and I found there was little for me about permaculture and too much sermonizing. I had not run into this before. Today your video popped up on my feed, although it was from many months ago and I have to say, you message educated me. All of the gardening “gurus” I follow delight and inspire me as I make my first tentative steps into permaculture. I am disappointed to learn that there are people who allow their religious beliefs to stonewall their ability to be inclusive and celebrate all who work towards improving their community and strengthening the fragility of our planet. Thank you for your words.
Well done. I find that the ethical underpinning of permaculture integrates very well with both my Buddhist practice and the ecological basis perfectly assimilates with my NeoPagan beliefs. Thich Nhat Hanh's notion of Interbeing so perfectly meshes with Permaculture. Whenever I am in the gardens I see the Dharma. May you be well, may you be healthy and know joy and may you be at peace.
I think one of Permaculture’s strengths is that it makes everyone better. It makes a better Christian, Muslim, Atheist because it connects us to nature, creatures and others. It has certainly acted as a “check” on my own personal theology. It also warms my heart to see Permaculture practices in other cultures, especially practices that are ancient and indigenous that have always been or are being reimagined. I love that it connects us to the past, present and future. And I love that it centers “care” at its core. It helps me connect to the Divine in a way that current practices of my faith do not. I am just an hour south of you by the way so your videos are extremely helpful. Thank you for taking care of our Muslim friends on your Facebook group! I look forward to your thoughts on colonization in permaculture. Also I always thought that Masanobu Fukuoka doesn’t get enough mentions as a Permaculture practitioner. I loved his book “One Straw Revolution.” Some day I would love for you to do some book reviews.
Thank you for this. I find that a lot of permaculture aligns perfectly with my religious beliefs, and I feel driven to share it with my congregation. A lot of the people who participate in my church would benefit from opening up their views on how we can be good stewards of the world and the people with whom we interact.
Thank you so much. I feel that permaculture is perfectly compatible with many if not all faiths. As a Christian for me and as my own personal understanding goes, as stewards of people and planet, permaculture just helps us to live that faith more fully by filling in the gaps.
Hi Angela. I've watched many content-creators' videos on gardening and permaculture, and your channel is the first I feel compelled to comment. I have to admit, I'm usually a silent observer-consumer of ideas, but I have to tell you how refreshing it is to see a woman offering this type of content. It's not only a realm that is dominated, as you've experienced, by evangelical Christians, it's a realm dominated by men. Mansplaining is real. And like all forms of bias that you've touched on, it can be implicit or explicit. Thank you for tackling a very triggering topic in such a non-threatening and validating way. And thank you for the value you add to the 'food-growing community.'
This was an excellent analysis, thank-you for that. We had a similar discussion in a more local permaculture group I'm in, because our community is deeply religious. And judging based on that discussion, I have to say though that fusing religion and permaculture is a great way to reach new audiences that were otherwise uninterested. There are so many options for learning permaculture out there, that having different "flavors" I think is a great option. As long as people are upfront about their religious interpretation, then people can choose who they want to learn from and what kind of a world-view they want to be influenced by. Thanks again.
Fascinating and this answered a few things I had been wondering about. Sounds like a very different spiritual landscape in the USA to where I am in the UK. From the little I've seen in the UK, permaculture discussion & courses tend more towards yoga, mindfulness, Buddhist thinking; or atheist, humanist thinking; or pagan, earth worship thinking. I love your affirmation that both permaculture is open and compatible with all faiths, and that we can integrate our faith and permaculture practice.
WOW I never thought about this idea. Thank you for addressing this. I reference Permaculture frequently when teaching my gardening practices and will be mindful of your comments. I have always emphasized inclusion and diversity and in doing so hope I am not weakening the permaculture interconnective features for those who hear me. Thank you.
Awesome share! I agree with you 100%! Permaculture is a design system that is adaptable for everyone! I appreciate your willingness to consistently tackle tough topics. Blessings to you and your family!
I agree. I went to a permaculture convergence and ran because it was so cult-like. It has its own language and practices, and the one I visited was so recruitment focused that it was like an MLM. I wish we had more people like Angela in permaculture to keep it grounded in reality.
I completely agree with your point of view. Just as we have learned that biodiversity is healthier than monoculture, we can transpose that to spiritual expression. If people of Islam want to learn about permaculture, why not? It only enhances the number of people who are working to heal the planet.
Very true. Permaculture includes and not excludes people of any religion or none. It's People Care, not clique care. It's true that we need to find our common and equal standings to promote the best inclusive and harmonising lifestyles.
This is a great discussion, thank you for bringing it up. I would be fascinated by the talk about Islamic permaculture practices, tbh. Having been raised by conservative baptists, it was hard to watch the Back to Eden movie because of how similar the language was to sermons I heard as a kid in a strict household. At the same time, I could appreciate the intent behind the method to look further into it and seek other resources to learn (it also wasn't my first intro to the concept). I consider myself agnostic, but there is no where I feel more connected to my spirit than out in nature. It absolutely makes sense to me that the call to be a good steward of your land can feel like a divine imperative.
Thank you for discussing this. I just looked this subject up. I am a born again Christian and I would not want to think that permaculture would be a religion. I feel if you love the Lord Jesus Christ that this is a part of being a Christian. To see the good of the earth people and ecosystem. Harmony together being Jesus centered through Him we have Life. God Bless.
a great overview of the complexities of religion and permaculture. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic and opening up a holistic and inclusive discussion.
An interesting topic indeed. I was intensely triggered while watching your video because of my indigenous roots. I did appreciate your acknowledgment of indigenous practices which you said where borrowed and I will await your video on this subject. I was mostly concerned with the continuing credit that Mollison is given as the founder of permaculture. As always, indigenous communities in many parts of the world observed and practiced permaculture for millennia. They are the founders, even Bill M has stated this. A more apt portrayal of his role would be “translator” of permaculture principles. The structures that form the 12 steps are not religious and this is a big mistake to interpret it as such. Religion should be defined as a man made construct and a man made format that seeks to express spirituality defined with cultural biases into a dogma. Spirituality exists in the secular and religious alike but Religion is another thing. Most humans, devoid of interference, exhibit biologically ethical behavior. That is, humans may be inherently ethical, spiritual beings. Spirituality may be an universal trait that exists outside of any religious teaching. To link religion to permaculture is not a plus. Spirituality will exist in everything we do whichever religion we choose .We are free to speak of these principles that overlap and intercept and liken them to our favorite religion but I see that once again there is creeping into permaculture an appropriation by religious entities to claim permaculture as its own. These two are not linked and should not be. There is no way that permaculture will thrive if religion appropriates this movement. Religion, by its own definition, (specially Christianity) exists in appointing winners and losers, us and them, saved or lost. This is contrary to permaculture available to all, sharing and caring to all. The reason the indigenous peoples never wrote down 12 steps, or the basic principles is that if you are practicing true permaculture you understand first and foremost how to coexist with nature animals and humans in a way that sustains and protects the past present and future of the entire system and you understand that nature is fluid and changing. Tenets that can be written in stone as to what and how permaculture must be is missing the entire point. I feel that we would be wise to practice our own beliefs and how permaculture may mirror certain tenets of our religion and just leave it at that.
and many of them (I mean those self-proclaimed atheists / agnostics) seem to try to incorporate some Asian, American and other indigenous practices (not to forget pre-Christian European practices) in their permaculture ...
True, but they come from cultural Christianity, and most have a state religion. As I said, even nominal or cultural religious does influence our worldview and shape the lens through which we view other religons.
Inge, I totally agree, in my experience, there are significant cohorts of permaculture that borrow from other cultures’ spirituality, in the same way Mollison “borrowed” from indigenous practice.
Well said. I also think that if someone wants to bring permaculture lessons/classes into their church or religious group and give it a splash of that language to share how permaculture melds well with their spiritual path, let them so that we can get plenty of folks practicing permaculture. More the merrier.
That’s awesome! But permaculture isn’t just about growing plants. And we want to make sure the design system of Permaculture is available to all folks so everyone can grow plants.
I am a Christian and find your analysis right on. In my mind, I might substitute God s design or creation's design for nature's design. But restoration is the key. Thanks for your thoughts and kindness on this subject.
I think you are ascribing motivations to people that quite possibly don't exist. I came o Permaculture because I wanted to grow my own food. I keep on with Permaculture because I am politically left, and I can see the benefits for society
Personally, I don't care if a permaculture practicioner is Left, Right, Centrist, Or any other political persuasion. As long as they are trying to design a better world, I keep my religion, voting preference, and other prejudices out of our conversation and help them get their designs implemented. Because no mater which direction you are coming at permaculture, as long as you make the world a better place for yourself, your family, your group, and help with other groups, it is a good thing.
Very well done, a fair and calm treatment, and better than saying nothing. Of course you'll get slammed by some. Can't help that, and it reflects more on the "slammers" than on you, the "slammee." As to your reference, as usual, to the three main principles of permaculture: those could also be called "values," which would unavoidably suggest the possibility of some source of the values and/or some underlying spirituality. But again, please don't let some (over)reactions discourage or stop you. You have served us well with this post, as you always do.
Thanks for another thoughtful and interesting post! I never realised there was such a strong evangelical Christian thread in US permaculture. My own faith is pagan/earth-based, so I see Goddess/God/the divine in all of nature, and for me living in harmony with nature and mimicking natural systems is part of connecting to my soul. Sometimes considering something sacred can assist its protection (like sacred rivers and forests in Roman pagan times). Starhawk's book "The Fifth Sacred Thing" gives an amazing utopian vision of a peaceful and tolerant society with a huge diversity of spiritual beliefs, and grounded with permaculture, and starts with the declaration "The Earth is a living, conscious being. In company with cultures of many different times and places, we name these things as sacred: air, fire, water, and earth. Whether we see them as the breath, energy, blood, and body of the Mother, or as the blessed gifts of a Creator, or as symbols of interconnected systems that sustain life, we know that nothing can live without them. To call these things sacred is to say that they have a value beyond their usefulness for human ends, that they themselves become the standard by which our acts, our economics, our laws, and our purposes must be judged. No one has the right to appropriate them or profit from them at the expense of others. Any government that fails to protect them forfeits its legitimacy".
You may want to check out many of the permaculture food sovereignty programs. Many First Nations families are relearning lost cultural traits, such as food forests, which IS permaculture. Permaculture started in Australia, based on indigenous practices there at the time...permaculture was started by indigenous peoples, therefore, more important than religion, there is the need to respect history and those who came before us...
El otro dia puse comentario en ingles y me censuraron. No se porque. Queria decir gracias a Angela porque como los hombres dominan este tema de permaculture (y religion) me gusta ver mas mujeres como lideres dando sus experiencias de ama de casa y permaculture. Hay mucho valor todavia en las amas de casa. Nada mas queria dar mis respetos. No se porque no salio mi comentario. Saludos a todos que les importan la comida real desde sus propios jardines..
Hi neighbor, this was a wonderful video. Religion in permaculture has been on my mind quite a bit lately as I consume videos on RUclips. Based on the American channels I follow it seems like most of the big names have a religious component. As a non-religious person myself (I suppose I'm a secular humanist?), I find it encouraging to see religious folks linking permaculture with the concept of being a good steward of the earth. At the same time I worry that I would feel very out of place at an event like Homesteaders of America, but I hope that's not the case. It's funny how some of the comments from Christians indicate a similar concern around feeling accepted or having to wade through woo-woo stuff as I feel about wading through Christian channels. Your point that permaculture must be welcome to all is so important. My hope is that this is a movement that can be a bridge across the political and religious chasms that divide us. I think we can all find a way to appreciate each other if we are open to it. Thanks again for tackling this topic!
I think permaculture is a spiritual practice in that it helps us focus on being in the moment and connect and take notice of the world around us. I think religion and spirituality are separate things. I take permaculture as a practice that helps deepen my religion. I practice a nature based religion so it dovetails very well.
I agree, I use mindfulness a lot in conjunction with my work out in the garden and while that spiritual practice isn’t required for permaculture, it does enhance my personal application of it.
Haven't started the video yet, but I am SO ready to hear your thoughts on this!! Eek! Great video topic 😊❤️ P.S. Angela, your style is so wonderful. I love it!
Almost anything can become a religion which can be toxic and limiting. I guess I tend to look at permacultute as a creative economic system of practice with open-ended evolution.
I like the way you communicated this topic. I never studied permaculture nor thought of it as part of greater human community or religion. Interesting that Islamic permaculture triggers people but not Buddhist or yogic influenced permaculture.
(I did not yet watch to the end, but before I forget what I want to say ...) In my opinion you are right, Angela. In itself permaculture is not religious. It is based upon the view of scientists (ecology, biology, maybe even ethnology). But because the principles of permaculture are like 'laws of nature', and 'nature' can be seen as 'the creation', it attracts people with a religious background or worldview. Especially people who believe there is a Creator, who created (designed) the whole universe and all living creatures, and who has put those principles / laws in it. At least, I personally see how my worldview based on the bible fits together with the principles of permaculture ... Though I know there are many permaculturists who do not see it like that (many of them are not religious or even anti-religious).
Permaculture is the unconditional love of God coming through our hands. Surrender your little ego to a higher love in the light and sound as unconditional love. Soul is Forever. Listen to your instincts and intuition. Soul Travel is natural. Eckankar.
Soul * was put here in this physical world not just to learn what someone tells you, but to actually realize living life after life evolving up the food chain. Living everylife, a million lives. From a single cell amiba, all plants, all bugs,fish, all birds, mammals.all forms and races of human. Slowly with each new life and old death. staying in balance with negitive and positive forces in this world .
Thanks for this. Most of my permaculture exposure has gone beyond "people care, earth care, etc." to include some form of "earth worship" or elevation of the creation instead of the Creator. Most people have a sense of a Creator, admittedly in different forms. So it's always a pit of a pain having to wade through the woo-woo nonsense I don't agree with to get the nuggets of good information and design principles from permaculture. I suppose we all do this when ingesting new info regardless, so it's part of the process. Just know that permaculture has a proclivity for including "energy, yoga, mother earth, climate emergency, etc" Unfortunately it lends itself to the promotion of the presenter's philosophies on top of good info. And this is made worse by some presenters stating that permaculture includes these philosophies. At times it seems to, so just beware, you may spend some time sifting through it.
Such and interesting outlook, I am going to have to chew on this awhile. For the moment I feel that there is little religious or Biblical references to the growing of fruits, vegetables, and all. If that were the case the Land of Milk and Honey would not be a desert now.
Main tenet of Christianity is mans dominion over nature. Just because some early practitioners of permaculture were Christians doesn’t make it Christian based. I would say it’s the exact opposite.
I think a lot of Christians would disagree with you on that. In fact, multiple practicing Christians commented when I shared this video on Facebook that their religious practice is held up in the Scriptures where they are told to be a steward of creation, and a caretaker.
Major religions don't exist...only people who practice them exist (and religious texts exist...which are usually not in the language or culture of the people currently practicing them...and/or they're translated and heavily interpreted by local culture). It's inappropriate to get into a debate about "what [insert religion] practices" because there will be no agreement. Far more productive to ignore the religion and discuss very specific acts/values/practices individually. I agree with you. There is no dominion, there is only fit or no fit, and even if a Christian claims their "domination" narrative fits for them, their religion makes them resist or outright reject the understanding other perspectives (because God agrees with my view, why should yours get equal say!)...which historically weakens the sustainability of a community in my opinion. Again, I think abrahamic religion are the monocultures of ideologies that actively, by design, remove and reject diversity of all kinds (diversity of belief, but also actual people, like people who are gay, people with disabilities or people who do art etc etc etc).
The fact that abrahamic religions in North America at this time in history sometimes show care, love, and respect to diverse people is a privilege and an anomaly...and it hasn't been the case around the world and throughout history...because religious texts are not clear enough to prevent this from happening or they clearly do encourage prejudiced and agressive behavior in the name of religion.
Thank for you tackling this subject! I love the agricultural principles of permaculture, but I'm not interested in the ethical and philosophical and religious and social principles of permaculture. In some cases those principles align to my own, and in some cases not. More importantly, I already feel fulfilled on those fronts and don't want or need my gardening advisors to become spiritual guides.
As an athiest who interacts a great deal with permaculture and homesteading spaces I guarantee there is a plethora of religions overtones, to the point in some groups of being exclusionary, its interesting the number of 'no religion in this space' groups are really no one that disagrees with our religion groups, the 'no politics here' groups often have a similar issue. We are currently building a VERY diverse homestead space, as noted I am an athiest, our GF is a deeply Christian person, and my not in laws through my SO are Pagan and disassociated but practicing Catholic respectively .... I don't think there is any fundamental conflict between one person viewing the sanctity of the nature we are working with as a function of their spiritual practice and someone viewing no such connection, we still recognize that sanctity and act on it. I can't see any reason why letting my not in law clear the ground of negative energy, my GF blessing the hole, and me throwing a fish or two in it before planting a tree.... The tree will still grow well..... possibly better than it might have otherwise.
I have a comment and a question. My comment is that I was raised in a Christian household and am now happily agnostic. I find my version of God/spirituality in the natural world. I don’t understand how any person feels there’s anything to gain by telling someone else how to be. Especially with anger and hatred. My question, Angela, is are you seeing an increase in such responses?Thank you for addressing sensitive topics.
I don’t know that I am seeing an increase, necessarily. 15 years ago a local leader (no longer here) in permaculture told me I would never understand or truly do permaculture if I wasn’t and atheist. So, not a new issue that teachers and leaders bring their beliefs and all their baggage and bias to the table when they teach. Perhaps it is more that people feel emboldened on the Internet to say divisive things about religion or the lack thereof? And just a general increase in mean and intolerant behavior in our culture…I do think it spills over into permaculture circles. We exist in the dominant culture and it influences us…the meanness and rudeness of our culture right now is something I think about a lot. Thanks for sharing your spiritual journey. I think a fair number of folks in permaculture share some of your experience, there.
Well I'm always fluctuating twixt pantheism and panentheism and I haven't really thought about people involved in mainstream religion and permaculture but I assume that there must be out there.
Spiritual and Religious are two different things. They may certainly overlap for many people. In my view, religions are the result of numinous or sacred experiences that were then paired with dogma and beliefs. Spirituality is a deep awareness and practice of the sacred in everyday life. As long as people use their religious beliefs on and for themselves and commune with like minded people, without demanding that others believe or practice as they do, religion can be a healthy thing. When we begin to demand that others believe as we do, we begin to be at war. Most of the major religions have tenets that require kindness, even love of the other, even if they are different. That is something we can all have in common, and that includes respect for others religious beliefs. Permaculture can be spiritual, if a person wishes it to be, it can be non-spiritual, that is a personal thing. Religious groups wishing to combine it with their beliefs are free to do that. It is a planetary tool for transformation and care of our common home for the good of all. We just need to get over ourselves and be the Love our religious beliefs ask of us. It shouldn't be controversial at all, though sadly not all feel this way.
It's a good idea to have seminars in an Islamic view as the wives, sisters and daughters may be more likely to attend. It may be more approved by those who watch over them, ok'd by their culture. Let's grow!
Could you address the role of missionaries across history actively destroying old world permaculture practices to separate the native people from their land? Ultimately making them dependent on the church and missionaries.
That is such a great topic. I know as a white person I am really hesitant to talk with authority about how missionary practices have impacted those communities. It’s the same reason I actually haven’t addressed at length colonialism and Permaculture… Because I’m still trying to find balance and elevate the voices of POC discussing these things, while also realizing as a white person, I could use this teeny platform to elevate those voices.
@@ParkrosePermaculture cool. I get it. It is a difficult subject for seemingly most to tackle or accept. It is not in the past though. As a child the elders would teach me what my role in the world would be. It was to keep on the missionary practice. They taught me active subjugation through missionary efforts. The way the speak of people behind closed doors is appalling. This was in the 90's and early 00's. Dudes are still alive. Still elders. Still teaching.
Yes. Thank you for correcting me. It’s definitely an ongoing occurrence, not just a past one. I will spend some time thinking about it because as someone who used to support missionary work, I have participated in that harm and should do work to help mitigate it.
Garden is life and it is what brings us closer to our creator. To bring life from bare soil reminds us of the higher powers that sustain. even pemaculture scientific as you may look at it is just nature . However people choose to experience religion is up to them. There is an educated elitist attitude that many people have regarding religion. " Oooo you believe in God it's so childish that you believe in fairy tales." People would do well to learn tolerance. But then again sometimes it is the wrong group pointing the finger.
I think the problem here is that religion and spirituality are not the same and are not necessarily intermingled. That said, I think that permaculture is separate from both, although I sometimes have a spiritual feeling when I am doing something in my garden or using the principles in my relationships with people. Permaculture is a very practical method of design which can be used for spiritual purposes but can also be used to get things done sustainably. The very fact that people of various religions or even no religion or spiritual purpose at all can practice makes imposition of any religious aspect to it the personal preference of the people doing that and actually violates the inclusionary principles of permaculture. .
Good ideas, but you tell too much, and don't show very much. I didn't do a word count on the number of times you used the word "permaculture" in your talk, but it must be in the 100's at maybe every 5 to 6 words--way too much. BTW you need to be careful in saying it is not a science since Bill Mollison was a biologist. It's really a combo of science, art, engineering, and philosophy. Look at Leonardo DaVinci; he combined all of that, making modern life what it is today. Anyway, your video is a nice start, but I think you've got some more work to do.
Bill and Geoff have said many times that metaphysics has no place in a permaculture design. Metaphysics adds nothing to the permaculture practice. Applying permaculture is difficult enough without introducing mysticism. The good thing is that following the PDM will get you very far without needing to dip into the bag of tricks that mysticism provides. You just don't need it. It gets in the way.
Permaculture is a science. It came from the study of nature to find a balance. Gardening is science. Both fit the definition. Science: The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Science is defined as the observation, identification, description, experimental, investigation, and theoretical explanation of natural phenomena. (Those definitions are from a google search for "science definition".) Art also uses science. Creativity may be the forefront, but there is science in it. Religion has science. Expecting everything to be mutually exclusive is a downfall.
Wow I can’t even believe this is a thing.…I have never ever related religion to permaculture…it’s just about organics and working with the land and people. Well that’s what I learnt in New Zealand
I see God in nature not in church for me Permaculture in your own space is very personal thing and so is our faiths Every religion that finds the creators force in nature fits well but its personal some people might not see it this way and some do You can also bring science into or out of permaculture but your right its a design not a science But botany, herbalist, biology nutrition etc are sciences and very much be a part of permaculture same as soil science and how everything is in an ecosystem is all science and very much connected to permaculture the same way our faith can be Sometimes science and religion are on opposite sides of the scale but i think permaculture design an art can bring science and religion together connection with them better
8.42 This is so not true in the UK and Europe, where sadly Christianity is a dirty word to most Permaculture people, and nearly all events are based around earth religions. As a Christian myself, this has made me feel marginalised and bullied many times. This is why I think Permaculture should stand aside and separate from all religions, *including* paganism, wicca, and indigenous practices. It *should* be OK to integrate any spiritual practice into Permaculture, but unfortunately, that's not how it works.
But that isn’t permaculture, Larry. And as we know in Permaculture, you can’t actually segregate and have effective solutions. You can’t truly care for the planet without caring for its inhabitants
@@ParkrosePermaculture A human put an explosive device in a pineapple and fed it to an elephant. She died 4 days later. Look it up if you have the stomach to watch. I have no respect for a species capable of that kind of cruelty. I have followed Nature's ways in the garden all my life, I am 69 now.
"folks who say “keep your politics out of permaculture” mean “I don’t like politics the differ from mine being tied into permaculture”." I'm not saying keep your politics out of permaculture. I'm saying that you lose a portion of your potential audience when you do this. It's your channel and you're free to do what you like. "I know your views and fixation on equity v equality. I never lied to you, sir. I clarified that one time I misspoke and said equity when I meant equality. But I have never misrepresented any of my beliefs, sir. I don’t appreciate the false accusation." At the same time you werer writing this, I was writing an addendum to my post. Allow me to include it here? "Equality... yeah, that's freedom. Equity is slavery. I really find a lot of people confuse these words without realizing they are opposites. I was never 100% certain if you were doing that, but you've doubled-down on it a few times so I am forced to take your word for it. If you ever wanted to discuss this in more detail, publicly or privately, I would love to. Like I said, other than that, I loved your channel. I would love to be able to watch your videos with a better understanding of what you're saying but... truly... I cannot listen to your videos without hearing you talk in a coded way about slavery and murder. That's what the philosophy you pay lipservice to supports. I cannot separate the two with you. " I don't mean to falsely accuse you of anything. In that one situation, maybe you didn't lie. I simply gave my perspective of the interaction. Until the moment we had this conversation here, that was my impression. I've been known to be wrong before, plenty of times. "What on earth??? I am not - and have never been - a realtor, and I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have no idea what you’re talking about." In the video you just referenced you mentioned realty as why you got confused between equity and equality. I am sure I still have the comment around here somewhere, if you want me to search for it. "I don’t compromise my beliefs to pander to an audience and won’t comprise my integrity. You clearly have me confused or conflated with someone else and I’m done engaging with you and your bizarre and false accusations. Good day." No one is asking you to. But you claim you want to help people, and some part of me believes you're sincere about that. Equity has no place in permaculture. Mollison taught about freedom and individual choices, not collectivization. You've missed the forest for the trees, friend. · Reply · Share · 5m Malcolm Heath Angela Baker PS I don't have you mixed up. Your mother was a gardener, taught you tons. You just helped spread a bunch of woodchips and other amendments on your dad's land a little while ago. You're trying to do a cottage style garden a lot of the times, because your mother loved it. Am I wrong?
Please stop badgering and harassing me. I don’t agree with your viewpoint on libertarian politics. I’m not going to. I never lied to you, your bizarre all-caps (screaming) accusations on FB and commenting off-topic to bring up your pet issue months and months after you first raised your disagreement is unsettling. I believe in righting past wrongs and making amends. Just as we heal desertified landscapes humans have destroyed, we must work to heal the ways we have harmed people and continue to harm people. I’m not sure what your goals are here, but please stop harassing me.
@@ParkrosePermaculture the goal was to try to rectify the situation, as you suggested in reference to desertification. Yet for whatever reason you seem to have no interest in that. Self reflection is all I asked for. I made a very nice comment telling people how awesome your channel is. I pointed out one flaw. Our flaws help us grow. I'm sorry but I am not a yes man. I'm very polite, but I also give critical feedback. I wish you the best of luck.
We are soul from the light and sound of God (whatever rules you want) It's much simpler than Religion and science. Stop. Trying to put it into box of words. Stop talking and just listen as your chants and prayers and Huuu echos down from way way up. We are Soul * here and now. We don't have to die to Become aware of yourself as soul. It's very natural.
| What is it? | Neighboring witches, even some proclaimed white witches; I research back to the origin...God creatated. Meaning, I plant it, "I thank God."
As far as I understand, elements of Buddhist practice include yoga, but it’s not exclusively a Buddhist practice. And the yoga in Permaculture retreats is paired with Buddhist mindfulness and meditation. Or at least takes from Buddhist thought and melds it into the event.
I envision permaculture or ecological design as another commonality that can unite people instead of divide us. Just think that if everywhere you go on planet Earth, the local folks were practicing permaculture in their own way. And we could TALK about that, instead of all of the other things that we choose to do to divide ourselves. Like following different religions, etc.
That is such a great take. It is the thing that can be a commonality and help heal some of the divisiveness which so permeates our society.
Permaculture design resonates with many spiritually inclined people because it's a practical and functional way of being good stewards of the earth, which is inherent in all religious practices. It is way to harmonize our environment with our inherent need for spirituality, something which is deeply lacking in our current society. It also helps us to realize that there is some greater force that is in control and that all we must do is harmonize and work with it instead of trying to control or work against it.
I love your commentary. Thank you so much for your thoughtful remarks. So relaxing in these contentious times!
Oh boy. You are a courageous woman and i appreciate the thoughtful balanced way you addressed what is clearly a sticky and thorny topic. What a lot of folks may not have taken the time to recognize is that our individual worldview, moral compass, upbringing, etc all influence and affect the way we live our life, conduct ourselves with others and interact with the world around us . And for some reason the human race seems hellbent on putting labels on everything, and then fighting over the labels. Patience, grace, and an open mind will go very far in helping us learn to listen and respect others who are different from us. Thank you for modeling that.
This was a great video, thank you for opening this discussion. Only yesterday I ran into a permaculture practitioner who professed , up front that she is deeply rooted in her Christian beliefs. As her video progressed, her religious beliefs dominated everything and I found there was little for me about permaculture and too much sermonizing. I had not run into this before. Today your video popped up on my feed, although it was from many months ago and I have to say, you message educated me. All of the gardening “gurus” I follow delight and inspire me as I make my first tentative steps into permaculture. I am disappointed to learn that there are people who allow their religious beliefs to stonewall their ability to be inclusive and celebrate all who work towards improving their community and strengthening the fragility of our planet. Thank you for your words.
Well done. I find that the ethical underpinning of permaculture integrates very well with both my Buddhist practice and the ecological basis perfectly assimilates with my NeoPagan beliefs. Thich Nhat Hanh's notion of Interbeing so perfectly meshes with Permaculture. Whenever I am in the gardens I see the Dharma. May you be well, may you be healthy and know joy and may you be at peace.
I think one of Permaculture’s strengths is that it makes everyone better. It makes a better Christian, Muslim, Atheist because it connects us to nature, creatures and others. It has certainly acted as a “check” on my own personal theology. It also warms my heart to see Permaculture practices in other cultures, especially practices that are ancient and indigenous that have always been or are being reimagined. I love that it connects us to the past, present and future. And I love that it centers “care” at its core. It helps me connect to the Divine in a way that current practices of my faith do not. I am just an hour south of you by the way so your videos are extremely helpful. Thank you for taking care of our Muslim friends on your Facebook group! I look forward to your thoughts on colonization in permaculture. Also I always thought that Masanobu Fukuoka doesn’t get enough mentions as a Permaculture practitioner. I loved his book “One Straw Revolution.” Some day I would love for you to do some book reviews.
Thank you for this. I find that a lot of permaculture aligns perfectly with my religious beliefs, and I feel driven to share it with my congregation. A lot of the people who participate in my church would benefit from opening up their views on how we can be good stewards of the world and the people with whom we interact.
Great perspectives. The comments on the video are thoughtful aswell.
Thanks for covering this complex topic.
Cheers
Thank you so much. I feel that permaculture is perfectly compatible with many if not all faiths. As a Christian for me and as my own personal understanding goes, as stewards of people and planet, permaculture just helps us to live that faith more fully by filling in the gaps.
Hi Angela. I've watched many content-creators' videos on gardening and permaculture, and your channel is the first I feel compelled to comment. I have to admit, I'm usually a silent observer-consumer of ideas, but I have to tell you how refreshing it is to see a woman offering this type of content. It's not only a realm that is dominated, as you've experienced, by evangelical Christians, it's a realm dominated by men. Mansplaining is real. And like all forms of bias that you've touched on, it can be implicit or explicit. Thank you for tackling a very triggering topic in such a non-threatening and validating way. And thank you for the value you add to the 'food-growing community.'
This was an excellent analysis, thank-you for that. We had a similar discussion in a more local permaculture group I'm in, because our community is deeply religious. And judging based on that discussion, I have to say though that fusing religion and permaculture is a great way to reach new audiences that were otherwise uninterested. There are so many options for learning permaculture out there, that having different "flavors" I think is a great option. As long as people are upfront about their religious interpretation, then people can choose who they want to learn from and what kind of a world-view they want to be influenced by. Thanks again.
Fascinating and this answered a few things I had been wondering about. Sounds like a very different spiritual landscape in the USA to where I am in the UK. From the little I've seen in the UK, permaculture discussion & courses tend more towards yoga, mindfulness, Buddhist thinking; or atheist, humanist thinking; or pagan, earth worship thinking.
I love your affirmation that both permaculture is open and compatible with all faiths, and that we can integrate our faith and permaculture practice.
I agree that it is very different in the UK, although I'm sure that we still do have religious lens on in a more subtle way perhaps
WOW I never thought about this idea. Thank you for addressing this. I reference Permaculture frequently when teaching my gardening practices and will be mindful of your comments. I have always emphasized inclusion and diversity and in doing so hope I am not weakening the permaculture interconnective features for those who hear me. Thank you.
Awesome share! I agree with you 100%! Permaculture is a design system that is adaptable for everyone! I appreciate your willingness to consistently tackle tough topics. Blessings to you and your family!
When I first started investigating permaculture, I actually thought it might be a cult. Some of the literature came across as being very dogmatic.
I agree. I went to a permaculture convergence and ran because it was so cult-like. It has its own language and practices, and the one I visited was so recruitment focused that it was like an MLM. I wish we had more people like Angela in permaculture to keep it grounded in reality.
I completely agree with your point of view. Just as we have learned that biodiversity is healthier than monoculture, we can transpose that to spiritual expression. If people of Islam want to learn about permaculture, why not? It only enhances the number of people who are working to heal the planet.
Very true. Permaculture includes and not excludes people of any religion or none. It's People Care, not clique care. It's true that we need to find our common and equal standings to promote the best inclusive and harmonising lifestyles.
This is a great discussion, thank you for bringing it up. I would be fascinated by the talk about Islamic permaculture practices, tbh. Having been raised by conservative baptists, it was hard to watch the Back to Eden movie because of how similar the language was to sermons I heard as a kid in a strict household. At the same time, I could appreciate the intent behind the method to look further into it and seek other resources to learn (it also wasn't my first intro to the concept). I consider myself agnostic, but there is no where I feel more connected to my spirit than out in nature. It absolutely makes sense to me that the call to be a good steward of your land can feel like a divine imperative.
Have you seen Geoff Lawtons Greening the Desert and his RUclips videos?
@@amyjones2490 yep he was one of the first of the big names I saw info from
Thank you for discussing this. I just looked this subject up. I am a born again Christian and I would not want to think that permaculture would be a religion. I feel if you love the Lord Jesus Christ that this is a part of being a Christian. To see the good of the earth people and ecosystem. Harmony together being Jesus centered through Him we have Life. God Bless.
Amen❤
a great overview of the complexities of religion and permaculture. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic and opening up a holistic and inclusive discussion.
I appreciate your fair attitude. You're a real inspirational person. Thank you.
An interesting topic indeed. I was intensely triggered while watching your video because of my indigenous roots. I did appreciate your acknowledgment of indigenous practices which you said where borrowed and I will await your video on this subject. I was mostly concerned with the continuing credit that Mollison is given as the founder of permaculture. As always, indigenous communities in many parts of the world observed and practiced permaculture for millennia. They are the founders, even Bill M has stated this. A more apt portrayal of his role would be “translator” of permaculture principles. The structures that form the 12 steps are not religious and this is a big mistake to interpret it as such. Religion should be defined as a man made construct and a man made format that seeks to express spirituality defined with cultural biases into a dogma. Spirituality exists in the secular and religious alike but Religion is another thing. Most humans, devoid of interference, exhibit biologically ethical behavior. That is, humans may be inherently ethical, spiritual beings. Spirituality may be an universal trait that exists outside of any religious teaching. To link religion to permaculture is not a plus. Spirituality will exist in everything we do whichever religion we choose .We are free to speak of these principles that overlap and intercept and liken them to our favorite religion but I see that once again there is creeping into permaculture an appropriation by religious entities to claim permaculture as its own. These two are not linked and should not be. There is no way that permaculture will thrive if religion appropriates this movement. Religion, by its own definition, (specially Christianity) exists in appointing winners and losers, us and them, saved or lost. This is contrary to permaculture available to all, sharing and caring to all. The reason the indigenous peoples never wrote down 12 steps, or the basic principles is that if you are practicing true permaculture you understand first and foremost how to coexist with nature animals and humans in a way that sustains and protects the past present and future of the entire system and you understand that nature is fluid and changing. Tenets that can be written in stone as to what and how permaculture must be is missing the entire point. I feel that we would be wise to practice our own beliefs and how permaculture may mirror certain tenets of our religion and just leave it at that.
Here in Europe, I would say that most permaculturists are atheists or agnostics.
Yes, I think so too. Maybe not the people who work in permaculture gardens / food-forests, but the people who talk and write about permaculture.
and many of them (I mean those self-proclaimed atheists / agnostics) seem to try to incorporate some Asian, American and other indigenous practices (not to forget pre-Christian European practices) in their permaculture ...
True, but they come from cultural Christianity, and most have a state religion. As I said, even nominal or cultural religious does influence our worldview and shape the lens through which we view other religons.
Inge, I totally agree, in my experience, there are significant cohorts of permaculture that borrow from other cultures’ spirituality, in the same way Mollison “borrowed” from indigenous practice.
@@ParkrosePermaculture I agree with that.
Well said. I also think that if someone wants to bring permaculture lessons/classes into their church or religious group and give it a splash of that language to share how permaculture melds well with their spiritual path, let them so that we can get plenty of folks practicing permaculture. More the merrier.
For me permaculture fills the space I wanted the church to
I think that’s true for a lot of folks and that is absolutely valid and ok.
Definitely!
I'm just trying to grow some plants, y'all
That’s awesome! But permaculture isn’t just about growing plants. And we want to make sure the design system of Permaculture is available to all folks so everyone can grow plants.
I am a Christian and find your analysis right on. In my mind, I might substitute God s design or creation's design for nature's design. But restoration is the key. Thanks for your thoughts and kindness on this subject.
Me as well. It's hard for me to base my life's bountiful blessings without including the One who created them. All one big picture to me❤
I think you are ascribing motivations to people that quite possibly don't exist. I came o Permaculture because I wanted to grow my own food. I keep on with Permaculture because I am politically left, and I can see the benefits for society
Those are great reasons to practice permaculture! They are some of the reasons I started, as well. But I don’t think that’s a universal experience.
Personally, I don't care if a permaculture practicioner is Left, Right, Centrist, Or any other political persuasion. As long as they are trying to design a better world, I keep my religion, voting preference, and other prejudices out of our conversation and help them get their designs implemented. Because no mater which direction you are coming at permaculture, as long as you make the world a better place for yourself, your family, your group, and help with other groups, it is a good thing.
Very well done, a fair and calm treatment, and better than saying nothing. Of course you'll get slammed by some. Can't help that, and it reflects more on the "slammers" than on you, the "slammee." As to your reference, as usual, to the three main principles of permaculture: those could also be called "values," which would unavoidably suggest the possibility of some source of the values and/or some underlying spirituality. But again, please don't let some (over)reactions discourage or stop you. You have served us well with this post, as you always do.
Thank you for your encouragement!
Thanks for another thoughtful and interesting post! I never realised there was such a strong evangelical Christian thread in US permaculture. My own faith is pagan/earth-based, so I see Goddess/God/the divine in all of nature, and for me living in harmony with nature and mimicking natural systems is part of connecting to my soul. Sometimes considering something sacred can assist its protection (like sacred rivers and forests in Roman pagan times). Starhawk's book "The Fifth Sacred Thing" gives an amazing utopian vision of a peaceful and tolerant society with a huge diversity of spiritual beliefs, and grounded with permaculture, and starts with the declaration "The Earth is a living, conscious being. In company with cultures of many different times and places, we name these things as sacred: air, fire, water, and earth. Whether we see them as the breath, energy, blood, and body of the Mother, or as the blessed gifts of a Creator, or as symbols of interconnected systems that sustain life, we know that nothing can live without them. To call these things sacred is to say that they have a value beyond their usefulness for human ends, that they themselves become the standard by which our acts, our economics, our laws, and our purposes must be judged. No one has the right to appropriate them or profit from them at the expense of others. Any government that fails to protect them forfeits its legitimacy".
Thanks for bringing up Starhawk’s work. Good reminder for another thoughtful teacher whose work has had a profound influence on so many.
You may want to check out many of the permaculture food sovereignty programs. Many First Nations families are relearning lost cultural traits, such as food forests, which IS permaculture. Permaculture started in Australia, based on indigenous practices there at the time...permaculture was started by indigenous peoples, therefore, more important than religion, there is the need to respect history and those who came before us...
El otro dia puse comentario en ingles y me censuraron. No se porque. Queria decir gracias a Angela porque como los hombres dominan este tema de permaculture (y religion) me gusta ver mas mujeres como lideres dando sus experiencias de ama de casa y permaculture. Hay mucho valor todavia en las amas de casa. Nada mas queria dar mis respetos. No se porque no salio mi comentario. Saludos a todos que les importan la comida real desde sus propios jardines..
Hi neighbor, this was a wonderful video. Religion in permaculture has been on my mind quite a bit lately as I consume videos on RUclips. Based on the American channels I follow it seems like most of the big names have a religious component. As a non-religious person myself (I suppose I'm a secular humanist?), I find it encouraging to see religious folks linking permaculture with the concept of being a good steward of the earth. At the same time I worry that I would feel very out of place at an event like Homesteaders of America, but I hope that's not the case. It's funny how some of the comments from Christians indicate a similar concern around feeling accepted or having to wade through woo-woo stuff as I feel about wading through Christian channels. Your point that permaculture must be welcome to all is so important. My hope is that this is a movement that can be a bridge across the political and religious chasms that divide us. I think we can all find a way to appreciate each other if we are open to it. Thanks again for tackling this topic!
I think permaculture is a spiritual practice in that it helps us focus on being in the moment and connect and take notice of the world around us. I think religion and spirituality are separate things. I take permaculture as a practice that helps deepen my religion. I practice a nature based religion so it dovetails very well.
I agree, I use mindfulness a lot in conjunction with my work out in the garden and while that spiritual practice isn’t required for permaculture, it does enhance my personal application of it.
Haven't started the video yet, but I am SO ready to hear your thoughts on this!! Eek! Great video topic 😊❤️
P.S. Angela, your style is so wonderful. I love it!
Almost anything can become a religion which can be toxic and limiting. I guess I tend to look at permacultute as a creative economic system of practice with open-ended evolution.
I just grow my Food Forest lol.
I like the way you communicated this topic. I never studied permaculture nor thought of it as part of greater human community or religion. Interesting that Islamic permaculture triggers people but not Buddhist or yogic influenced permaculture.
(I did not yet watch to the end, but before I forget what I want to say ...) In my opinion you are right, Angela. In itself permaculture is not religious. It is based upon the view of scientists (ecology, biology, maybe even ethnology). But because the principles of permaculture are like 'laws of nature', and 'nature' can be seen as 'the creation', it attracts people with a religious background or worldview. Especially people who believe there is a Creator, who created (designed) the whole universe and all living creatures, and who has put those principles / laws in it. At least, I personally see how my worldview based on the bible fits together with the principles of permaculture ... Though I know there are many permaculturists who do not see it like that (many of them are not religious or even anti-religious).
And now I watched the video till the end, I can say: I totally agree with you Angela!
I support Permaculture in the name of anything...
Permaculture is the unconditional love of God coming through our hands. Surrender your little ego to a higher love in the light and sound as unconditional love.
Soul is Forever. Listen to your instincts and intuition. Soul Travel is natural. Eckankar.
Our instincts and intuition are real and hard won from our past lives here.
Soul * was put here in this physical world not just to learn what someone tells you, but to actually realize living life after life evolving up the food chain. Living everylife, a million lives. From a single cell amiba, all plants, all bugs,fish, all birds, mammals.all forms and races of human. Slowly with each new life and old death. staying in balance with negitive and positive forces in this world .
I would love to hear about how permaculture is repackaged from indigenous practices
Have you seen Liberation Permaculture on fb? They speak about this very topic quite a bit.
Thanks for this. Most of my permaculture exposure has gone beyond "people care, earth care, etc." to include some form of "earth worship" or elevation of the creation instead of the Creator. Most people have a sense of a Creator, admittedly in different forms. So it's always a pit of a pain having to wade through the woo-woo nonsense I don't agree with to get the nuggets of good information and design principles from permaculture. I suppose we all do this when ingesting new info regardless, so it's part of the process. Just know that permaculture has a proclivity for including "energy, yoga, mother earth, climate emergency, etc" Unfortunately it lends itself to the promotion of the presenter's philosophies on top of good info. And this is made worse by some presenters stating that permaculture includes these philosophies. At times it seems to, so just beware, you may spend some time sifting through it.
Such and interesting outlook, I am going to have to chew on this awhile. For the moment I feel that there is little religious or Biblical references to the growing of fruits, vegetables, and all. If that were the case the Land of Milk and Honey would not be a desert now.
Psalm 104 is a start ❤️
Great for tackling such a sticky subject.
Main tenet of Christianity is mans dominion over nature. Just because some early practitioners of permaculture were Christians doesn’t make it Christian based. I would say it’s the exact opposite.
I think a lot of Christians would disagree with you on that. In fact, multiple practicing Christians commented when I shared this video on Facebook that their religious practice is held up in the Scriptures where they are told to be a steward of creation, and a caretaker.
Major religions don't exist...only people who practice them exist (and religious texts exist...which are usually not in the language or culture of the people currently practicing them...and/or they're translated and heavily interpreted by local culture).
It's inappropriate to get into a debate about "what [insert religion] practices" because there will be no agreement. Far more productive to ignore the religion and discuss very specific acts/values/practices individually.
I agree with you. There is no dominion, there is only fit or no fit, and even if a Christian claims their "domination" narrative fits for them, their religion makes them resist or outright reject the understanding other perspectives (because God agrees with my view, why should yours get equal say!)...which historically weakens the sustainability of a community in my opinion.
Again, I think abrahamic religion are the monocultures of ideologies that actively, by design, remove and reject diversity of all kinds (diversity of belief, but also actual people, like people who are gay, people with disabilities or people who do art etc etc etc).
The fact that abrahamic religions in North America at this time in history sometimes show care, love, and respect to diverse people is a privilege and an anomaly...and it hasn't been the case around the world and throughout history...because religious texts are not clear enough to prevent this from happening or they clearly do encourage prejudiced and agressive behavior in the name of religion.
Thank for you tackling this subject! I love the agricultural principles of permaculture, but I'm not interested in the ethical and philosophical and religious and social principles of permaculture. In some cases those principles align to my own, and in some cases not. More importantly, I already feel fulfilled on those fronts and don't want or need my gardening advisors to become spiritual guides.
As an athiest who interacts a great deal with permaculture and homesteading spaces I guarantee there is a plethora of religions overtones, to the point in some groups of being exclusionary, its interesting the number of 'no religion in this space' groups are really no one that disagrees with our religion groups, the 'no politics here' groups often have a similar issue. We are currently building a VERY diverse homestead space, as noted I am an athiest, our GF is a deeply Christian person, and my not in laws through my SO are Pagan and disassociated but practicing Catholic respectively .... I don't think there is any fundamental conflict between one person viewing the sanctity of the nature we are working with as a function of their spiritual practice and someone viewing no such connection, we still recognize that sanctity and act on it. I can't see any reason why letting my not in law clear the ground of negative energy, my GF blessing the hole, and me throwing a fish or two in it before planting a tree.... The tree will still grow well..... possibly better than it might have otherwise.
I’m Muslim, nice video you made.
Whoaa what a good video thank you!!
I have a comment and a question. My comment is that I was raised in a Christian household and am now happily agnostic. I find my version of God/spirituality in the natural world. I don’t understand how any person feels there’s anything to gain by telling someone else how to be. Especially with anger and hatred. My question, Angela, is are you seeing an increase in such responses?Thank you for addressing sensitive topics.
I don’t know that I am seeing an increase, necessarily. 15 years ago a local leader (no longer here) in permaculture told me I would never understand or truly do permaculture if I wasn’t and atheist. So, not a new issue that teachers and leaders bring their beliefs and all their baggage and bias to the table when they teach. Perhaps it is more that people feel emboldened on the Internet to say divisive things about religion or the lack thereof? And just a general increase in mean and intolerant behavior in our culture…I do think it spills over into permaculture circles. We exist in the dominant culture and it influences us…the meanness and rudeness of our culture right now is something I think about a lot.
Thanks for sharing your spiritual journey. I think a fair number of folks in permaculture share some of your experience, there.
Well I'm always fluctuating twixt pantheism and panentheism and I haven't really thought about people involved in mainstream religion and permaculture but I assume that there must be out there.
Spiritual and Religious are two different things. They may certainly overlap for many people. In my view, religions are the result of numinous or sacred experiences that were then paired with dogma and beliefs. Spirituality is a deep awareness and practice of the sacred in everyday life. As long as people use their religious beliefs on and for themselves and commune with like minded people, without demanding that others believe or practice as they do, religion can be a healthy thing. When we begin to demand that others believe as we do, we begin to be at war. Most of the major religions have tenets that require kindness, even love of the other, even if they are different. That is something we can all have in common, and that includes respect for others religious beliefs. Permaculture can be spiritual, if a person wishes it to be, it can be non-spiritual, that is a personal thing. Religious groups wishing to combine it with their beliefs are free to do that. It is a planetary tool for transformation and care of our common home for the good of all. We just need to get over ourselves and be the Love our religious beliefs ask of us. It shouldn't be controversial at all, though sadly not all feel this way.
The covering idea is more about how Christ covers us with His righteousness.
It's a good idea to have seminars in an Islamic view as the wives, sisters and daughters may be more likely to attend. It may be more approved by those who watch over them, ok'd by their culture. Let's grow!
Very good!
Could you address the role of missionaries across history actively destroying old world permaculture practices to separate the native people from their land? Ultimately making them dependent on the church and missionaries.
That is such a great topic. I know as a white person I am really hesitant to talk with authority about how missionary practices have impacted those communities. It’s the same reason I actually haven’t addressed at length colonialism and Permaculture… Because I’m still trying to find balance and elevate the voices of POC discussing these things, while also realizing as a white person, I could use this teeny platform to elevate those voices.
@@ParkrosePermaculture cool. I get it. It is a difficult subject for seemingly most to tackle or accept. It is not in the past though. As a child the elders would teach me what my role in the world would be. It was to keep on the missionary practice. They taught me active subjugation through missionary efforts. The way the speak of people behind closed doors is appalling. This was in the 90's and early 00's. Dudes are still alive. Still elders. Still teaching.
For clarity these were elders in the coc, sbc, and lds.
Yes. Thank you for correcting me. It’s definitely an ongoing occurrence, not just a past one. I will spend some time thinking about it because as someone who used to support missionary work, I have participated in that harm and should do work to help mitigate it.
@@ParkrosePermaculture respect.
Blessings to all!
Garden is life and it is what brings us closer to our creator. To bring life from bare soil reminds us of the higher powers that sustain. even pemaculture scientific as you may look at it is just nature . However people choose to experience religion is up to them.
There is an educated elitist attitude that many people have regarding religion. " Oooo you believe in God it's so childish that you believe in fairy tales."
People would do well to learn tolerance. But then again sometimes it is the wrong group pointing the finger.
Well done!
I think the problem here is that religion and spirituality are not the same and are not necessarily intermingled. That said, I think that permaculture is separate from both, although I sometimes have a spiritual feeling when I am doing something in my garden or using the principles in my relationships with people. Permaculture is a very practical method of design which can be used for spiritual purposes but can also be used to get things done sustainably. The very fact that people of various religions or even no religion or spiritual purpose at all can practice makes imposition of any religious aspect to it the personal preference of the people doing that and actually violates the inclusionary principles of permaculture.
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Good ideas, but you tell too much, and don't show very much. I didn't do a word count on the number of times you used the word "permaculture" in your talk, but it must be in the 100's at maybe every 5 to 6 words--way too much. BTW you need to be careful in saying it is not a science since Bill Mollison was a biologist. It's really a combo of science, art, engineering, and philosophy. Look at Leonardo DaVinci; he combined all of that, making modern life what it is today. Anyway, your video is a nice start, but I think you've got some more work to do.
Bill and Geoff have said many times that metaphysics has no place in a permaculture design. Metaphysics adds nothing to the permaculture practice.
Applying permaculture is difficult enough without introducing mysticism. The good thing is that following the PDM will get you very far without needing to dip into the bag of tricks that mysticism provides. You just don't need it. It gets in the way.
I do permaculture for mother nature
Permaculture is a science. It came from the study of nature to find a balance. Gardening is science. Both fit the definition.
Science: The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Science is defined as the observation, identification, description, experimental, investigation, and theoretical explanation of natural phenomena. (Those definitions are from a google search for "science definition".)
Art also uses science. Creativity may be the forefront, but there is science in it. Religion has science. Expecting everything to be mutually exclusive is a downfall.
Wow I can’t even believe this is a thing.…I have never ever related religion to permaculture…it’s just about organics and working with the land and people. Well that’s what I learnt in New Zealand
I see God in nature not in church for me
Permaculture in your own space is very personal thing and so is our faiths
Every religion that finds the creators force in nature fits well but its personal some people might not see it this way and some do
You can also bring science into or out of permaculture but your right its a design not a science
But botany, herbalist, biology nutrition etc are sciences and very much be a part of permaculture same as soil science and how everything is in an ecosystem is all science and very much connected to permaculture the same way our faith can be
Sometimes science and religion are on opposite sides of the scale but i think permaculture design an art can bring science and religion together connection with them better
8.42 This is so not true in the UK and Europe, where sadly Christianity is a dirty word to most Permaculture people, and nearly all events are based around earth religions.
As a Christian myself, this has made me feel marginalised and bullied many times.
This is why I think Permaculture should stand aside and separate from all religions, *including* paganism, wicca, and indigenous practices.
It *should* be OK to integrate any spiritual practice into Permaculture, but unfortunately, that's not how it works.
I care about the Earth not about the people.
OK, but then you are not applying the principles of permaculture ...
@@ingeleonora-denouden6222 That is true. I figure that enough people care about us so I don't have to. I put Nature first, humans last.
But that isn’t permaculture, Larry. And as we know in Permaculture, you can’t actually segregate and have effective solutions. You can’t truly care for the planet without caring for its inhabitants
@@ParkrosePermaculture A human put an explosive device in a pineapple and fed it to an elephant. She died 4 days later. Look it up if you have the stomach to watch. I have no respect for a species capable of that kind of cruelty. I have followed Nature's ways in the garden all my life, I am 69 now.
@@drawyrral that is terribly sad. Does it help to remember 7.9 billion other people did not do that?
"folks who say “keep your politics out of permaculture” mean “I don’t like politics the differ from mine being tied into permaculture”."
I'm not saying keep your politics out of permaculture. I'm saying that you lose a portion of your potential audience when you do this. It's your channel and you're free to do what you like.
"I know your views and fixation on equity v equality. I never lied to you, sir. I clarified that one time I misspoke and said equity when I meant equality. But I have never misrepresented any of my beliefs, sir. I don’t appreciate the false accusation."
At the same time you werer writing this, I was writing an addendum to my post. Allow me to include it here?
"Equality... yeah, that's freedom. Equity is slavery. I really find a lot of people confuse these words without realizing they are opposites. I was never 100% certain if you were doing that, but you've doubled-down on it a few times so I am forced to take your word for it. If you ever wanted to discuss this in more detail, publicly or privately, I would love to. Like I said, other than that, I loved your channel. I would love to be able to watch your videos with a better understanding of what you're saying but... truly... I cannot listen to your videos without hearing you talk in a coded way about slavery and murder. That's what the philosophy you pay lipservice to supports. I cannot separate the two with you. "
I don't mean to falsely accuse you of anything. In that one situation, maybe you didn't lie. I simply gave my perspective of the interaction. Until the moment we had this conversation here, that was my impression. I've been known to be wrong before, plenty of times.
"What on earth??? I am not - and have never been - a realtor, and I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have no idea what you’re talking about."
In the video you just referenced you mentioned realty as why you got confused between equity and equality. I am sure I still have the comment around here somewhere, if you want me to search for it.
"I don’t compromise my beliefs to pander to an audience and won’t comprise my integrity.
You clearly have me confused or conflated with someone else and I’m done engaging with you and your bizarre and false accusations. Good day."
No one is asking you to. But you claim you want to help people, and some part of me believes you're sincere about that. Equity has no place in permaculture. Mollison taught about freedom and individual choices, not collectivization. You've missed the forest for the trees, friend.
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Malcolm Heath
Angela Baker PS I don't have you mixed up. Your mother was a gardener, taught you tons. You just helped spread a bunch of woodchips and other amendments on your dad's land a little while ago. You're trying to do a cottage style garden a lot of the times, because your mother loved it. Am I wrong?
Please stop badgering and harassing me. I don’t agree with your viewpoint on libertarian politics. I’m not going to. I never lied to you, your bizarre all-caps (screaming) accusations on FB and commenting off-topic to bring up your pet issue months and months after you first raised your disagreement is unsettling.
I believe in righting past wrongs and making amends. Just as we heal desertified landscapes humans have destroyed, we must work to heal the ways we have harmed people and continue to harm people.
I’m not sure what your goals are here, but please stop harassing me.
@@ParkrosePermaculture the goal was to try to rectify the situation, as you suggested in reference to desertification. Yet for whatever reason you seem to have no interest in that.
Self reflection is all I asked for. I made a very nice comment telling people how awesome your channel is. I pointed out one flaw. Our flaws help us grow.
I'm sorry but I am not a yes man. I'm very polite, but I also give critical feedback. I wish you the best of luck.
We are soul from the light and sound of God (whatever rules you want) It's much simpler than Religion and science. Stop.
Trying to put it into box of words. Stop talking and just listen as your chants and prayers and Huuu echos down from way way up. We are Soul * here and now. We don't have to die to Become aware of yourself as soul. It's very natural.
Permaculture is fundamentally pro-life. This fact unites most faiths.
| Garden's Battle | YHVH and his Lucifer; makes composting a meaningful separation.
| What is it? | Neighboring witches, even some proclaimed white witches; I research back to the origin...God creatated. Meaning, I plant it, "I thank God."
I think if we're going to boost Joel Salatin, it's worth also mentioning that he's extremely racist.
It comes down to this "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." - Thumper, from BAMBI
Does passive-aggressive count as "nice"?
Yoga is not a Buddhist practice.
As far as I understand, elements of Buddhist practice include yoga, but it’s not exclusively a Buddhist practice. And the yoga in Permaculture retreats is paired with Buddhist mindfulness and meditation. Or at least takes from Buddhist thought and melds it into the event.