Nice summary. This is a favourite topic of mine. Place name evidence indicates that Manaw (Gododdin) includes the north shore of the Firth of Forth - the old county of Clackmannanshire, and its former seat of Clackmannan, both named after a stone known as the stone of Manann (clach/clog mannan). I did a video on it a while back (Manannán in Scotland)
This was really interesting, thank you! I sense you could be on to something with the notion of there being a more ancient archetype or God that they all arise out of. In fact I sense this could be the case for a number of Celtic Deities and archetypes.
I tend to think Rachel Bromwich's theory is simpler and more likely than Patrick Sims-Williams'... In your theory of an older common Celtic original, do you still think the God was named for the island, or do you think the island was named for the God?
I agree, but I am a hopeless romantic to the end.😉 I’ve a lot of catching up to do with my Irish and Welsh heritage but it’s happy work. Sadly I’m more versed in the Germanic myths and lore from my early days of studying the mythology of my forebears. Never the less in my early “travels” an interesting parallel between the Irish/Welsh Manannan/Manawydan and the Norse Heimdall was pointed out by multiple scholars, especially H.R. Ellis Davidson in her book “Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe, early Scandinavian and Celtic Religions” from Syracuse University Press. So the idea of a highly skilled multi talented divinity with ties to the sea and ideal kingship seems to be present on the continent as well as the British Isles and may well attest to it’s great age.
I agree, but I think you need to go outside the Celtic source and connect it to a larger Indo-European and Eurasian traditions. I am researching it at present and features of this character and the accompanying narratives appear across Eurasia and possibly Canada (Iroquoian). I am currently working on the obtaining sources from the Caucasus and Turkic speaking areas. However, there are similar deities in Korea, Japan, and China. I really hope that you will publish your theory. If you do, Freyr/Freya would be the easiest to compare.
@XnnX 7 I both agree and disagree because if one looks hard enough and does enough mental gymnastics then yes you can find similarities but that doesn't make them real.The op actually just assumes their must be some vague non existent correlation because of the "muh indo European" but fails to actually study how much different Celtic religions are from their indo European cousins. I can run off a gigantic list of the differences I know but just with Manannan Mac Lir there isn't much similarity with Poseidon or Neptune just from the mythology alone.Even their characters are starkly different...
@XnnX 7 but yeah if they were to set to see where their assumptions lead them instead of pigeonholing information to get their desired answer they would do themselves a service yet they do themselves a disservice
Nice summary. This is a favourite topic of mine. Place name evidence indicates that Manaw (Gododdin) includes the north shore of the Firth of Forth - the old county of Clackmannanshire, and its former seat of Clackmannan, both named after a stone known as the stone of Manann (clach/clog mannan). I did a video on it a while back (Manannán in Scotland)
Another great video thanks.
The obvious conclusion to draw is that he was the royal deity / embodiment of the Isle of Man itself - sitting in the sea , being Llyr
This was really interesting, thank you! I sense you could be on to something with the notion of there being a more ancient archetype or God that they all arise out of. In fact I sense this could be the case for a number of Celtic Deities and archetypes.
I tend to think Rachel Bromwich's theory is simpler and more likely than Patrick Sims-Williams'...
In your theory of an older common Celtic original, do you still think the God was named for the island, or do you think the island was named for the God?
I agree, but I am a hopeless romantic to the end.😉 I’ve a lot of catching up to do with my Irish and Welsh heritage but it’s happy work. Sadly I’m more versed in the Germanic myths and lore from my early days of studying the mythology of my forebears. Never the less in my early “travels” an interesting parallel between the Irish/Welsh Manannan/Manawydan and the Norse Heimdall was pointed out by multiple scholars, especially H.R. Ellis Davidson in her book “Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe, early Scandinavian and Celtic Religions” from Syracuse University Press. So the idea of a highly skilled multi talented divinity with ties to the sea and ideal kingship seems to be present on the continent as well as the British Isles and may well attest to it’s great age.
I agree, but I think you need to go outside the Celtic source and connect it to a larger Indo-European and Eurasian traditions. I am researching it at present and features of this character and the accompanying narratives appear across Eurasia and possibly Canada (Iroquoian). I am currently working on the obtaining sources from the Caucasus and Turkic speaking areas. However, there are similar deities in Korea, Japan, and China. I really hope that you will publish your theory. If you do, Freyr/Freya would be the easiest to compare.
Playing connect the dots with deities who have no etymological connections and no mythic connections is horrible academia or even research.
Freyr is a male deity and Freya is his sister and their names are titles
@XnnX 7 I both agree and disagree because if one looks hard enough and does enough mental gymnastics then yes you can find similarities but that doesn't make them real.The op actually just assumes their must be some vague non existent correlation because of the "muh indo European" but fails to actually study how much different Celtic religions are from their indo European cousins. I can run off a gigantic list of the differences I know but just with Manannan Mac Lir there isn't much similarity with Poseidon or Neptune just from the mythology alone.Even their characters are starkly different...
@XnnX 7 but yeah if they were to set to see where their assumptions lead them instead of pigeonholing information to get their desired answer they would do themselves a service yet they do themselves a disservice