@@Majiger not impossible but not consistent for sure. Tome allowed you to fast cycle 1 (or 2 or 3 if lucky) turns early on. needed for genesis and two ALS. Slowing down Prism's cycling by 1-3 turns was huge. but you can definitely still find all three cards early on.
@@borghe For a true loop, you need to use Tunic with 13-14 soul according to Prez. Which, to me, puts ALS outside the stax definition at this point. It's more of a fog effect since you can still interact with it, it doesn't prevent you using your cards unlike stax.
@@Majiger true loop post ban? Maybe, but pre-book you just built a board and depending on the deck they normally just straight fold on the spot, praying the Prism floods on Reds.
Stax is awesome. It makes for such good gameplay and thoughtful interactions like: "when can I finally go get something to eat? Does the next round start already? Are they done yet?" I cannot imagine a world where 2 people sitting down being miserable to each other is a bad thing, like for real.
Lexi Ice whole gameplan was to overwhelm you under frostbites while not letting you block killing you slowly while not letting you play your hand It was never very competitive But It was clearly THE deck I felt the most like I wasn't able to play anything when it was doing its thing
Also its important to know that stax does not always equal a control deck. Especially in some formats Magic, stax/prison decks are usually aggro combo decks.
Playing against stax is like walking on hot coals. Some people are willing to take the challenge. Most people say FU, I'm not doing that. The issue comes when someone forces you to Walk over those coals.
I like a stax-lite version of gameplay. Slow down, play at my pace. I'll let you do the broken thing maybe once, but you gotta work for it, and that's if I don't get to do my broken thing first. So, disruption and stuff. But yeah, the most actively miserable game I've ever played was against an ice Lexi where I never resolved a single game action. I just blocked for fifteen turns until I finally, mercifully died. I'm not sure I've forgiven that player for what she did to me...
Very very much agree. Dreadbore is a forever permanent, and while yes, it does still give you "agency" in playing the reactions from arsenal, it is an effect that is almost un-interactable.
I think OG Prism also has a place in the stax discussion, being another deck aimed at locking down the board and slowing down your opponent, keeping them from being able to truly play the game. Not as much as Iyslander can, but still very able to grind down a game! That said, Ice Illusionist when?
Not all of the examples from other games are really forever permanents, either. Smokestack should eventually get so many counters that you have to sacrifice it. Imperial Order requires you to pay LP, and destroys itself if you can't.
1994, a friend got me to start playing M:tG, but then stopped, leaving me with cards, a desire to play, and (of great importance to the story) no ability/outlet to. 1995, found an LGS for M:tG where the owner would play games with me for as long as I wanted to... Owner played nothing but Bant Stasis for months before pulling out other decks. I think my young idiot self out Staxxed him. He got too tired of playing the same deck over and over, bearing me over and over, and having to put up with a kid who kept coming back over and over. Stax just isn't the best use of multiple gamers' time (it's solitaire with a captive audience). As an adult, yeah, I'm glad most modern gamers dont have my upbringing.
I used to play MUD in legacy. The number of people who, with a straight face, told me that my deck was unfair while they were trying to play Emrakul on turn 2 was insane.
Has a fuzzy background image of Iona... talks about Blood Moon. Legend. Also... talks about how FaB isn't about building board states as a differentiating factor to other games and the virtues of player agency... loves Spectra Auras and ALS. Methinks he doth protest too much. Beer is still beer, even if it's Light talent beer.
The awful thing isn't technically stax, people just have a problem when control is to powerful. Like I had a "normal" control deck without the taxing effect in the past where some people upon hearing that they were paired against me they just conceded and went to subway instead. And on the other hand if stax doesn't have something like winter orb but only taxes for 1 or 2 Ressources in most games it isn't nearly as disliked.
I love Stax. It's so unique in design to TCGs that's rarely seen in other types of games. I love decks that significantly bend the way you think about a match, and require a high skill level to pilot.
My problem with any hyper specialized strategy ( unlike balanced games, say chess ) is that you have more weaknesses then strengths. So monster decks, burn decks and all the other strategies that rely on consistently using resources efficiently, are thoroughly shown one of their weaknesses when they go up against stax or control. Because of the meta arms race in most card games and the way people build decks, you end up in a situation where everyone is using decks that have 0 toughness and crumble at the slightness curve ball. This is where the bad feels come from because if you get a bad match up, there isn't much you can do unless you side board ( but that's extremely limited ). Even Stax can be thrown a curve ball if taxing another player doesn't do anything (1 mana spells). A LOT of card games are a freaking mess of variables with no math foundation (some exceptions). Like you can physically see the math and symmetry in chess just by looking at it. When it comes to card games its non-existant with some patterns but those patterns tend to break over time (banned cards). Why such an extreme difference between a 1 mana burn spell dealing 2 damage versus a retro active 1 mana creature dealing 1-2 damage a turn continuously is also 1 mana? The creature clearly has more complexity but costs the same.
I must say it is funny that you say RitL can be avoided by blocking, when it's a specialisation card for a hero specifically known for having ways around blocking out their attacks :) EDIT: Speaking of flipping traps.. Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Collapsing Trap?
Tbh, after watching Salubrious Snail's take on Stax (in edh specifically, but the points he poses are relevant to most stax discussions), I gotta disagree with your final take. Stax, at the end of the day, is resource denial in a game about spending resources wisely. I think that, when properly designed and balanced, it has a place in any metagame, and shouldn't be written off wholesale. (Edit: I misspelled the guy's channel? Whoops.)
@@TheL0rd0fSpace oh I believe it has it's place and should exist, I was just being hyperbolic in expressing how frustrating it can be to play against at times
Ngl, i hate Warmongers. It just feels bad. Also i, as Viserai main, loose way to often against a one-off Warmongers. The fact, that u can play Warmongers as a "Chainender" bc it doesnt cost any Resources is just braindead. u take every bit of dmg and plan your hand out just for the last card on the chain to be a warmongers is the worst feeling in this game. If i could interact with it, would be much better.
The real thing I wonder about Warmonger's is why it isn't 2 Def. The hidden over/unders on it are 1) the deck building cost, if WM is viable at all, is that the deck will be hyper linear (and many decks are very OK with that), and 2) playing it as an ender increases the odds of bricking yourself on the upcoming hand since you don't have perfect information on your draws (see again 1 for why this might not matter). This means I hope all classes have some off-type power cards to prevent hyper linear builds from being the default (Bloodrush Bellows, Face Purgatory incentives, Arc Lightning for Aurora's specialisation when she is attack centric, Decompose only on Attack Actions for Verdance)
I don't know how I ended up here, I've never played Flesh and Blood. Winter Orb is my favourite card of all time.
You ended up here because the algorithm thinks even you can be fixed.
@@flaetsbnort Lol.
i should start playing fab with my friends tbh, we all play mtg and most of us are in the fgc as well. ive heard it plays like a fighting game
Welcome!
@demiurge2501 Give it a shot! It's really well made and maintained and the competitive circuit is unmatched!!
Somehow Arc Light Sentinel was conspicuously absent from this video ;)
@@ThePlagueHive no lie, ALS completely slipped my mind. I haven't played Prism in a hot minute
ALS loop is stax, a single ALS is not. Not to mention, with Tome bans, it's almost impossible to set up a forever loop.
@@Majiger not impossible but not consistent for sure. Tome allowed you to fast cycle 1 (or 2 or 3 if lucky) turns early on. needed for genesis and two ALS. Slowing down Prism's cycling by 1-3 turns was huge. but you can definitely still find all three cards early on.
@@borghe For a true loop, you need to use Tunic with 13-14 soul according to Prez.
Which, to me, puts ALS outside the stax definition at this point. It's more of a fog effect since you can still interact with it, it doesn't prevent you using your cards unlike stax.
@@Majiger true loop post ban? Maybe, but pre-book you just built a board and depending on the deck they normally just straight fold on the spot, praying the Prism floods on Reds.
Stax is awesome. It makes for such good gameplay and thoughtful interactions like: "when can I finally go get something to eat? Does the next round start already? Are they done yet?" I cannot imagine a world where 2 people sitting down being miserable to each other is a bad thing, like for real.
"dont turn this into a drinking game" *looks at the 50 beer cans* opps
Ah, I remember the day I encountered Lantern Control in Modern Magic. I liked playing that format, but never again after encountering that abomination
Lexi Ice whole gameplan was to overwhelm you under frostbites while not letting you block killing you slowly while not letting you play your hand
It was never very competitive
But It was clearly THE deck I felt the most like I wasn't able to play anything when it was doing its thing
Dishonor... Stops your opponent from enjoying the game..... And automatically flips the table
Also its important to know that stax does not always equal a control deck. Especially in some formats Magic, stax/prison decks are usually aggro combo decks.
Playing Staxs is fun, challenging, and rewarding!
Playing against Staxs is fun, challenging, and rewarding!
I've never read a more incorrect comment in my life
Playing against stax is like walking on hot coals.
Some people are willing to take the challenge. Most people say FU, I'm not doing that.
The issue comes when someone forces you to Walk over those coals.
Beautiful video as always
I like a stax-lite version of gameplay. Slow down, play at my pace. I'll let you do the broken thing maybe once, but you gotta work for it, and that's if I don't get to do my broken thing first. So, disruption and stuff.
But yeah, the most actively miserable game I've ever played was against an ice Lexi where I never resolved a single game action. I just blocked for fifteen turns until I finally, mercifully died. I'm not sure I've forgiven that player for what she did to me...
“I really hate Stax” 🥺
I never played MTG so I was genuinely unaware of the term until now. Great video as always!
At first I thought it was you too!
Blocklax in Pokemon was instrumental in getting me to try new games. Thank God, because FaB is so much better in every way.
As a long time stax player, your tears are my sustenance.
I would consider Dreadbore and reaping blade stax cards
Very very much agree. Dreadbore is a forever permanent, and while yes, it does still give you "agency" in playing the reactions from arsenal, it is an effect that is almost un-interactable.
I think OG Prism also has a place in the stax discussion, being another deck aimed at locking down the board and slowing down your opponent, keeping them from being able to truly play the game. Not as much as Iyslander can, but still very able to grind down a game!
That said, Ice Illusionist when?
interaction is good and healthy, says the llusionist player.
Exactly my thoughts. What a hypocrite.
Illusionist main btw
do you pay the 1? 🙃
I don't negotiate with terrorists... I pay them quietly and plot their downfall.
But I don't wanna...
iyslander was the perfect deck, I miss her every day
>Warmongers can't be interacted with
Me an intellectual: Rewind
A second Warmongers has hit the combat chain, sir.
Stax is inherantly interesting and unique.
The more general term for this kind of deck is "prison". Stax is a specific kind of prison deck in MTG and there are others (lantern control, stasis).
Not all of the examples from other games are really forever permanents, either. Smokestack should eventually get so many counters that you have to sacrifice it. Imperial Order requires you to pay LP, and destroys itself if you can't.
I LOVE STAXXXXXXXX
1994, a friend got me to start playing M:tG, but then stopped, leaving me with cards, a desire to play, and (of great importance to the story) no ability/outlet to.
1995, found an LGS for M:tG where the owner would play games with me for as long as I wanted to...
Owner played nothing but Bant Stasis for months before pulling out other decks.
I think my young idiot self out Staxxed him. He got too tired of playing the same deck over and over, bearing me over and over, and having to put up with a kid who kept coming back over and over. Stax just isn't the best use of multiple gamers' time (it's solitaire with a captive audience).
As an adult, yeah, I'm glad most modern gamers dont have my upbringing.
I used to play MUD in legacy. The number of people who, with a straight face, told me that my deck was unfair while they were trying to play Emrakul on turn 2 was insane.
We never found out why Iyslander was in Volcor.... Just saying
Has a fuzzy background image of Iona... talks about Blood Moon. Legend. Also... talks about how FaB isn't about building board states as a differentiating factor to other games and the virtues of player agency... loves Spectra Auras and ALS. Methinks he doth protest too much. Beer is still beer, even if it's Light talent beer.
The awful thing isn't technically stax, people just have a problem when control is to powerful.
Like I had a "normal" control deck without the taxing effect in the past where some people upon hearing that they were paired against me they just conceded and went to subway instead. And on the other hand if stax doesn't have something like winter orb but only taxes for 1 or 2 Ressources in most games it isn't nearly as disliked.
I love Stax. It's so unique in design to TCGs that's rarely seen in other types of games. I love decks that significantly bend the way you think about a match, and require a high skill level to pilot.
My problem with any hyper specialized strategy ( unlike balanced games, say chess ) is that you have more weaknesses then strengths. So monster decks, burn decks and all the other strategies that rely on consistently using resources efficiently, are thoroughly shown one of their weaknesses when they go up against stax or control.
Because of the meta arms race in most card games and the way people build decks, you end up in a situation where everyone is using decks that have 0 toughness and crumble at the slightness curve ball. This is where the bad feels come from because if you get a bad match up, there isn't much you can do unless you side board ( but that's extremely limited ).
Even Stax can be thrown a curve ball if taxing another player doesn't do anything (1 mana spells).
A LOT of card games are a freaking mess of variables with no math foundation (some exceptions). Like you can physically see the math and symmetry in chess just by looking at it. When it comes to card games its non-existant with some patterns but those patterns tend to break over time (banned cards).
Why such an extreme difference between a 1 mana burn spell dealing 2 damage versus a retro active 1 mana creature dealing 1-2 damage a turn continuously is also 1 mana? The creature clearly has more complexity but costs the same.
Mtg has silence, I think that's close enough to stax too
Is fog stax then?
I must say it is funny that you say RitL can be avoided by blocking, when it's a specialisation card for a hero specifically known for having ways around blocking out their attacks :)
EDIT: Speaking of flipping traps.. Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Collapsing Trap?
it's funny cuz he sayed some banned card in YGO hahahaha also, its more easy just say "Stax is when a permanent has 'can't' in his text".
I LOVE CHANNEL LAKE FRIGID
A THOUSAND YEARS CHANNEL LAKE FRIGID
Hmmmmmmm, looks like you somehow missed the worst offender of all, ALS, especially when looped.
Tbh, after watching Salubrious Snail's take on Stax (in edh specifically, but the points he poses are relevant to most stax discussions), I gotta disagree with your final take.
Stax, at the end of the day, is resource denial in a game about spending resources wisely.
I think that, when properly designed and balanced, it has a place in any metagame, and shouldn't be written off wholesale.
(Edit: I misspelled the guy's channel? Whoops.)
@@TheL0rd0fSpace oh I believe it has it's place and should exist, I was just being hyperbolic in expressing how frustrating it can be to play against at times
so you're saying FAB players can't draw the out?
There is a special place in hell for stax players!
Ngl, i hate Warmongers. It just feels bad. Also i, as Viserai main, loose way to often against a one-off Warmongers.
The fact, that u can play Warmongers as a "Chainender" bc it doesnt cost any Resources is just braindead. u take every bit of dmg and plan your hand out just for the last card on the chain to be a warmongers is the worst feeling in this game. If i could interact with it, would be much better.
The real thing I wonder about Warmonger's is why it isn't 2 Def. The hidden over/unders on it are 1) the deck building cost, if WM is viable at all, is that the deck will be hyper linear (and many decks are very OK with that), and 2) playing it as an ender increases the odds of bricking yourself on the upcoming hand since you don't have perfect information on your draws (see again 1 for why this might not matter). This means I hope all classes have some off-type power cards to prevent hyper linear builds from being the default (Bloodrush Bellows, Face Purgatory incentives, Arc Lightning for Aurora's specialisation when she is attack centric, Decompose only on Attack Actions for Verdance)
TCG has the most offputting name I have ever heard tho xD
So glad there are no more ice heroes in Flesh and Blood..... for now