Yes! I grew up in York region and transit was straight up unusable for most trips. I lived right next to a bus stop but never used it because the bus only came hourly. Viva Blue is the one decent line but you can't really use it if your destination isn't walking distance from a station. Also why do York region bus drivers drive so SLOW? They literally drive at 40km/h even when they have dedicated lanes.
what would be really wild if you check and it turned out to be faster to take the LW to Aldershot, then get on the 17 to U of Waterloo in that instance
Honestly.. the Go train + route 30/17 combination does not take much longer than the train. Yes the transfer is a little inconvenient but its not that bad
Brampton has soo much potential in terms of transit infastructure. Downtown Brampton is in pace to be set up as an amazing transit hub if they play their cards right. - GO Train access directly to the core of Downtown Brampton - Hurontario LRT extension to the core of Downtown Brampton - Queen/Hwy 7 BRT extension to the core of Downtown Brampton
False. Bramptonians support Patrick Brown and Patrick Brown is the reason why the Hurontario LRT stops where it does and it does not go through Brampton. Brampton's voterbase by and large doesn't use transit and doesn't want tax increases. Kitchener-Waterloo and Hamilton are leading transit initiatives outside of the GTA.
Different Spokes is also right there in Downtown Brampton!!! It is a DIY community bike hub in front of the main st. ZUM stop in Downtown Brampton. We work with BikeBrampton and PUnjabi community health services to empower folks to choose bikes over cars. Gosh if you guys are still around before December you should definitely definitely drop by next week on Monday, W🎉ednesday or Thursday after 3 before we close for Dec.
So congrats that there's now an announcement to help extend it out to Brampton GO, it'll be an expensive extension for sure but connection wise it will be amazing.
as someone who lives in mississauga, it baffles me that the milton line hasnt been upgraded for better service yet. my trip downtown goes from 40 minutes on the milton line to an hour and a half taking the lakeshore, and this is the case for so many of us here in sauga. its so frustrating seeing the government prioritize highways as opposed to upgrading the connection between the two largest cities in the area.
More public transit = fewer cars = less congestion = less need for highway Both sides are incompetent but the Tories don't even hide the fact that they prioritize business interests.
I think it's because Metrolinx doesn't own the track of the Milton line, so they have to rely on cooperation from CN (or CP) rail to run the Milton service
that's something, even many European cities still have to learn: Within a city you can usually also bike and maybe even walk to reach your destination - so transit there is only one option of many (and in many cases the least preferred one…). But between cities the distances may become to long, so transit becomes the ONLY alternative to driving. And drivers will then drive right into the city, demanding for unlimited free parking. Take for example Paris or New York: No sane person would drive a car there, because it get's you nowhere except into the next traffic jam. But all the people from further outside just drive there, because its how they do ANY travel even within their own home town.
it feels really cool having someone on youtube describing the transit of where I live and so in-depth LIKE I USE THESE LINES AND SERVICES ITS SO CRAZY TO SEE A RUclipsR ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THEM AHHHHHHH idk I just love when there more content than just tornto and you actually delve into the transit surrounding it so thank you for posting this, I feel extremely seen, I knew every single place you mentioned LOL THATS CRAZY
Another piece of evidence york's brt was built to look pretty and never be used: the all glass design turns what should be a source of shade into a greenhouse during the summer. It's hellish.
We had the same complaint about a new bus stop in my country but that got dissed as a first world problem. At least the bus stop still can shelter passengers from rain
What stands out to me for York vs Peel is the subway extensions, it makes getting around a thousand times more convenient. Continuing the west side of Line 1 up to Vaughan Mills and Wonderland would be great.
Honestly, I think VMC station is a sufficient terminus station. It's already a hub and if York wants to provide connections from there, that should be on YRT's end.
York is already getting another extension, I think its a bit much to keep pandering to York. It's about time that TTC reached out to Mississauga (the whenever ECLRT west extension is a start)
@@takatomon It's more a matter of distance and corridor continuity than pandering. Mississauga City Centre is a lot father than Richmond Hill Centre and there's no "Burnhamthorpe Line" to extend to it. I think MCC being planned at Burnhamthorpe Rd. rather than at Dundas St. was a big mistake.
i think the primary issue is it would be stealing money away from vaughans transit system. another issue is seasonality... so like lets say vaughn runs an LRT there or the TTC extends the subway, well what good is that service that is almost only going to be popular for 25%-30% of the year? Even more expensive if you consider the cost of a subway. So building it wouldn't help any transit agency, really and it certainly wouldn't help the people of Vaughan. On top of that Wonderland doesn't have much issues at the gate so there's very little added efficiency, just more tax burden for the sake of a minor seasonal convenience of rail vs special bus. personally... government should never build permanent transit for a singular business, only accommodate around the general activity of the population. So yes, sometimes you get a business that can gain a benefit like some of the more recent Toronto transit plans, but if those businesses didn't exist, there would still be a point to those lines. If Wonderland didn't exist, that rail would be a train to nowhere.
I think a useful thing to bring up would be the fare structure, specifically how local trips in both cities are refunded if you use GO - unlike Toronto (for now), and the fact that the 905 co-fare agreement means that you can transfer from MiWay to BT and to YRT all on one fare - unlike Toronto (hopefully for now).
One thing about MiWay and ZUM, while you can transfer between them, if you board ZUM first, it will cost more than boarding MiWay first. Also, MiWay lets you off in the Square One terminal, but ZUM drops you off on the road beside the terminal.
@@makisekurisu4674you can put trains nearly everywhere. But yeah those remaining 1% of places don't need them if you can achieve other permanent rapid transit
Thank you for another great video. I'm very glad that we're covering the suburbs this time (I'm from Mississauga). I agree that Peel and York have so much potential to push public transit and become hubs of their own!
I think the future of Peel Regions transit success rests on whether or not the two cities are willing to cooperate. In a perfect world I think the 2 agencies should merge especially with the Hurontario LRT coming into fruition. YRT literally just needs to try harder. The whole system and service has so much potential but feels like a lazy attempt to just barely provide service. VIVA could easily be the best service in the GTA, and yet, as mentioned Züm makes more use out of the Hwy 7 corridor than VIVA itself. Durham Region Transit is also pretty bad and maybe even worse than YRT cause they haven’t really recovered from the pandemic, but even more so.
The fact that Hurontario LRT isn't connected to the city centre of Mississauga directly and is also not connected to the Kitchener line is disappointing.@@RMTransit
This just vindicates my opinion on YRT/VIVA. I love the viva infrastructure and those new comfy seats on the new YRT buses but the frequency is so terrible that I rarely, if ever ride it.
Grew up in York Region and without a car through my college years. YRT is a pain. (If you spell YRT backward is "TRY") The frequency and coverage is horrendous. YRT buses run based on schedule. Until recently, there are only 2 buses covering Kennedy route and on a 30 min frequency. Driver would literally crawl the bus at 30km/h when traffic is good to hit the checkpoint right on-time. Vice versa of course. (McCowan and Warden bus operated by TTC - 3 buses, every 20 mins). Unless you work downtown core and take the GO train, or live near Steeles. Prepare to buy a car and sit in traffic. Either way, you are still better than riding TRY
I grew up in Oakville, back in the 60s. The buses were run by Norton bus lines on a very poor schedule. They'd run every 2 hours from 6 AM to 6 PM, IIRC, with an extra bus thrown in at 5 PM. They often were school buses, as Norton also had the school bus contract. I could walk into town and back (about 3 miles each way) between buses. There were also a few times I walked home from high school, because there was no bus available. Want to go somewhere on Sunday? Forget about it, no buses at all!
Seeing so much footage from Mississauga is so nostalgic for me. I want to go back to see for myself what the transit is like now compared to when I lived there 10 years ago.
I been saying that the double tracking project on Stouffville line should have gone all the way to mount joy. As a frequent rider when we had full service last year and earlier this year, trains were coming back full to mount joy.
I will never stop wishing for a line 2 extension skytrain style along Dundas to cooksville GO, before tunnelling under confederation blvd to stop at celebration square, before terminating at the city centre terminal. The crosstown should absolutely get extended along the transitway as well! Mississauga needs better TTC connections!
I guess I've said this before, but I think having most city level public transport managed by the state/province (or at least an entity which has jurisdiction over an entire contiguous metropolitan area) is one of the keys to good public transport. Edit: see also, Perth, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide* (Adelaide does this but the public transport is still mid), not Brisbane, and how they're usually better than equivalent NA cities.
@@theexcaliburone5933 I don't know much about New York, but I think New York would be much better if NJT, Metro North and the LIRR had integrated ticketing, and having those services throughrun with each other and/or the subway (the latter bit being similar to what Tokyo does I guess). Doing that with NJT might be politically infeasible, but I don't think there's a good reason why that couldn't or shouldn't be done with the other three.
@@illiiilli24601 having two or more states contribute to one overarching Transit Agency could work: see the DC Metro. It also could be a nightmare and a lot of battles over funding: see the DC Metro.
Why doesn’t Toronto have a “circle” line connecting all the GO and subway lines around downtown and surrounding suburbs? I think there’s huge potential if one is built in the future
The Midtown Corridor is probably what you're talking about there. While proposals have come and gone, it doesn't seem like something that's going to happen anytime soon. Freight rail is not going to let that corridor go easily and it may literally be cheaper to build a whole new corridor running alongside one of the 400-freeways instead.
Realistically? Because everyone in the suburbs has a car. The reasons people take transit are 1. Downtowners without cars getting around and 2. Suburbanites who don't want to pay for downtown parking. Anyone trying to get from Markham to Sauga would just hop on the 407.
The loop around Square One was part of the original plan, but was killed when Doug Ford became premier. He also killed a platform extension at the Cooksville GO station that would have directly connected to the LRT stop. Also, on some routes, both MiWay and ZUM are available, though ZUM costs more than MiWay.
Good video. Last summer I went to Canada and I tried Züm & Brampton Transit. I got to say North America has a long way to go before the bus service is ideal. Züm is simply not frequent enough and its annoying to see that the GTA doesn't have 1 transport organisation that manages all public transport like TFL in London.
Viva on Davis Drive is the same. It has beautiful dedicated bus lanes, which took years of construction to build... And yet, the local Newmarket bus drives right alongside the dedicated lanes, stuck sharing regular driving lanes with other vehicles.
YRT Operator here... Every time I come here... I am abused lmao, we need to do better, iit was bad before covid and worse after. especially in newmarket, most of the "under preforming" routes were cut so "improve" service in vaughan, I haven't seen any extra runs added anywhere though
7:31 very minor correction, the Hwy 407 GO Bus corridor stops at *Langstaff GO* (directly under Hwy 407), not Richmond Hill GO which is 4km north on Major Mackenzie. Also, speaking of opulent bus terminals, it also stops at its namesake Hwy 407 station on line 1 of the TTC subway which imo kinda makes the future Barrie Line transfer at Concord redundant. (At least until I see Downsview Park getting higher ridership numbers.) But yes great video Reece, it does seem like YRT is painfully aware of its frequency problems given their announcement of a frequent transit network, but rollout for it has been subglacial, with a handful of routes getting slight improvements every year. (The 16th Avenue bus for example got bumped from ~30 min frequency to ~20 and it's already a good step in the right direction with noticeable effects.) I wonder what the bottleneck is in this process. I'm aware that they recently expanded the storage facility for VIVA buses for example.
I have to go to Richmond Hill GO station to get a part for my water filter at the place that makes them. The company is near the Richmond Hill GO station. But I'm in Nova Scotia...! How do I get there?!!
Here in Ottawa with OC Transpo, I’m planning to move to that subdivision called “Out of Service”, as most of the busses at the Blair Road Station seem to be going there. . . 😊
You haven’t seen anything yet. And this ought to be a topic for discussion. I used to drive for a transit agency notorious for only going one way. Picked up my coach at an ungodly hour of the morning, still technically night, drive empty a third of the way across the county, start the run, run half the route before one lady got on, drove her to her destination, and drove empty back to the garage. The route was 82 miles. We were in service for 30 of them. The brass claimed ridership was too low to increase service, though as I pointed out, nobody in their right mind would take a bus to a place from which they couldn’t get home.
Suburban only train routes are also a great feature of great suburban transit! Sydney Trains T5 is a great example! I think getting around the major suburban areas should be able to be done fully on rail while getting around the neighborhood should be done on those smaller BRT systems you showed us. Hence, we need more suburban only routes on Americas "commuter rail" systems. Hence, I think the 407 rapid bus corridor should be light rail, connecting the radial GO lines.
Brampton/Peel Region has so much potential compared to York region. York Region has become a very car-dominated suburb so is more difficult and will take time for people to make the switch to transit options. Brampton is the fastest-growing region in the GTA and has a very high demand for improved public transportation with its already much higher ridership. If Brampton plays its card correctly, it can become one of the best transit-oriented cities in Canada.
There's also bike infrastructure. And I think the suburbs have a better time building bike infrastructure than Toronto, especially with their wider RoWs.
Yesss!! We worked with the city to discuss how to improve bike parking in downtown, and adding things like ramps to allow folks to bring their bikes on buses.
Brampton also has a demographic and income factor which creates lots of captive ridership; lots of Indians and multiple families crammed into one house. Not to mention international students making some of these nice-looking suburbs closer to being slums.
The Milton line is especially infuriating because the direct buses (route 21) that used to follow that general route now don't even go to Toronto, they take you down to the Lakeshore line to catch a train there.
I think the transit ridership in York is skewed because of the differences in vehicle accessibility into Toronto. Unlike Mississauga, and even more so Brampton, York region's southern-most cities of Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham have residents with the closest and most direct routes into the city. With the 404/Don Valley, 400/Black Creek, and the alternative north-south major roads, we see a lot of people living in these cities who are wealthy enough to just drive into the city when they need to for the convenience. Yes, they have options to choose transit like the Viva, Go Busses, and Go Trains but with on average higher levels of income in these cities, most choose that more expensive personal vehicle option for the convenience. That and the inconvenience of finding a terminal to get onto the transit system in the first place which could see the same levels of traffic delay.
I remember when the York BRT was proposed as well as the subway extension up to YU. It seems that not much has changed in YRT, even with the BRT running. The university must have an influence on scheduling?
One of the biggest problems with pretty much every suburban GTA city, all of the cities in Peel and York included, is that its simply too easy to drive. All of these cities have dumped a ton of money into improving transit within their cities, and its definitely paid dividends, but there's a ceiling as to how good it can. A lot of people are inevitably going to think "why bother with a transit system, even a good one, when you can just hop in your car and get there in the same amount of time in your own private metal box." I also think this is part of why Brampton and Mississauga tend to have much better transit ridership than Vaughan or Markham, as they tend to be a lot more congested and therefore driving is a lot less convenient. this is the main reason why I think the Hurontario LRT had to be surface rail. If you buried the line underground not only would it cost more but you would also still have 6 lanes of traffic dedicated to cars, leading to less incentive to opt for the LRT unless you don't own a car and you literally have no other choice. Yeah i guess you could have an underground subway and a road diet at the same time, but putting the train in the centre median solves that problem for you. 4 lanes is still a lot, tbh, but its a lot less than 6, and that lack of space will provide more of an incentive to make a different choice when needing to use Hurontario. Its not a perfect solution, but its a start.
Or build it above ground! The street is gigantic! I really don't think transit should be focused on making other options worse, if the bus takes the same amount of time as a car (or even a reasonable amount more than a car) theres already tons of reasons to take it - cars aren't cheap!
@@RMTransit elevated rail would be a lot more expensive than a surface rail and i dont think the service difference would be that much greater in order to justify the increased cost. Besides, during the original meetings when the line was proposed, neither elevated nor underground rail was suggested as an option by Metrolinx, likely due to the aforementioned cost issue. The only options on the table were LRT, BRT, a mix of the two, and LRT is definitely the preferred option of the three.
@@RMTransit Cars a re "sunk cost". You PAID for it, it depreciates whether you use it or not (actually not true). Also, many car costs are not visibly scaling with miles drive, so people usually only figure the cost of gas and parking versus the cost of transit. And even then, "good" transit will often win. Having "feeders", something that GO does well is also key.
Transit buses of competing cities usually don't wait for disembarking passengers . Bus drivers are trained to wait for passengers . Lay overs are essential for passengers and drivers . We all need washroom breaks .
Issues for each gta system that i used Miway: less going round & round bus trips Brampton transit: need better connection between buses, i often miss connection my a minute or so for the bus. Yrt: more frequent services Ttc: stop bunching buses together have 2-3 minute seperation between buses.
Brampton transit needs better infrastructure for sure. I think one thing that makes this difficult is space. You really gotta think outside the box to make things fit on Brampton roads. Gateway terminal for instance is at a congested intersection (steels and hurontario) and is beside a shopping mall. The Downtown Station is so tiny it's a small engineering feet that a go bus station, a train station and a Brampton transit are actually all there. The good thing is the city is aware and projects the Hurontario LRT, Queen BRT will help them understand how to get this right.
Brampton still has a long way to go, but it has gotten a little better over the years and shockingly sometimes when I take the bus and check the bus times, it actually comes on time! I also noticed I dont wait as long as I used to wait for the bus which is pretty nice. But there has still been many times where the bus comes late or doesn't come at all Or it comes delayed causing me to miss the go train. Which during non-peak hours comes every hour:( Hopefully they keep working on it tho.
It's gotten significantly better. Pre-2020 I regularly took Brampton transit to Brampton Go and then the go train to downtown Toronto and in the 10 years I was doing that, it was vastly improved.
This video is coming at a very interesting time! If y'all are interested in Brampton transit, the city is hosting town halla on how downtown Brampton will look as a transit hub!
Mississauga's Miway 35 route is atrocious. LITERALLY 95% of the riders are International students from Brampton, enrolled in private colleges, and most (almost all) of them hop off on Mavis road to get Miway 61 to Brampton. Miway 35 and 61 has been EXTREMELY exhausted by Brampton International students. I mean no hate towards students but, I wish Brampton and Mississauga had better solutions to tackle this congestion.
With York, I think it's important to remember that the region is not as dense, as compared to peel. Population spread is also great more vast. It's good that the infrastructure is there, as York is growing at a fast pace. While more frequent service would be great, I think the region is well prepared and developed for future transit
Oh my god, as a frequent York bus user, this video sings to me. You know York has a problem when I ride the Zum more than the YRT depite never stepping a foot in peel region (thank you 501 down Hwy 7, you are my saviour even if you're always overcrowded
Brampton Transit made me change my decision of not applying for G2 (and buying a car) for as long as I can, to start learning G2 after 8 months, in just 4 months, while 2 initial years of mine were so smooth thanks to TTC (960, 36, 939, 96, etc) and VIVA.
The general service pattern of BRT, larger stop spacing and higher frequency, is really great for very suburban areas. It can make up for what is generally a transit penalty in especially sprawled areas where long travel distances are a necessity The suburb of Seattle I grew up in developed something some people might equate to a “poor mans BRT.” SWIFT doesn’t have full center bus lanes but does have BAT lanes in different areas, 10 minute frequencies, signal priority, and offboard payment (using recycled parking ticket machines on the cheap). It was said to be the first brt or rapid bus style line in Washington state done on a tight budget of $29 Million dollars and designed in-house back in 2009 for the initial 16.7 mile line There’s obviously room for much more improvement. I think SWIFT can be more frequent and be given even more bus lane priority. But I’m happy to see the SWIFT network expand to serve different neighborhoods in Snohomish county and plans to intersect with higher form transit lines like rail stations and such. Locally it does feel like the system was a bit of a trailblazer of sorts influencing much bigger agencies like Seattle’s King county metro to adopt the rapid bus model as well years later
@@michaelrmurphy2734 BAT: Bus And Turning lane. Essentially along a road with many intersections and business lots a lane on the side of the road closest to the sidewalk can be made only for buses and right hand turning vehicles meaning buses drive the whole length of the lane while the only other vehicles that end up in the lane are right hand turning vehicles. The next step up would be median running BRT like you see on the Van Ness San Francisco BRT for instance Nowadays newer BRT lines in more urban areas like Seattle have full median running and boarding to facilitate higher throughput like 6 minute or better frequencies
Snohomish county, right? Yeah, I use the swift all the time to get to school and living closeby to a stop is quite convenient, despite the close proximity to a highway. I'm excited about the new Orange line that's starting service late March. It connects a bunch of stuff like the local college, the mall, transit center, etc., and I'm curious to see how it'll be integrated with the other swift lines and the new Link extension.
The Surrey-Langley extension is essentially just an extension of the Expo Line to Vancouver though, it's not a special suburb to suburb rapid transit system like the other ones discussed in this video
Yup: Comparing Metro Vancouver to the GTA is not accurate. Surrey is basically a borough of what is essentially one City of Vancouver with the Expo Line a municipal subway line. Peel and York are suburban counties politically unrelated to Toronto.
The issue with suburbs is always the lack of density. Sure, if you throw enough money at it you could always get a good transit system, but if the buses are always half empty, it's not money well spent.
@Reece Since you're now doing bus videos, why not feature NYC with its internal express bus system and its suburban service from NJ? Also, the busway systems in Los Angeles and Pittsburgh, and the Silver Line system in Boston.
I think it’s remarkable that our Province talks about smashing a new highway (supposedly with transit) through the greenbelt. Meanwhile the fancy BRT lanes sit empty in York region and there is zero transit service right now to the areas the 413 will serve. Transit needs to be more of a priority.
For all of the hiccups that the Brampton, Peele and Mississauga regions have when it comes to suburban transit, it’s miles ahead of most American cities which have little or no suburban transit.
@@Cobalt985 I actually think that America does a lot better than Canada in a lot of areas, but Canada does have the edge when it comes to transit, especially in its suburbs.
I think that's a built-in, unacknowledged structural trick for making Canadians quiescent. Something here sucks, when compared to the rest of the developed world, but we accept it, uncomplainingly, because south of the border it sucks a little worse.@@Cobalt985
I think we should be careful not to overexaggerate how effective Zum is. A major reason ridership has increased continuously is because predatory Canadian immigration policy displaces vulnerable people from the global south and imports them to Toronto suburbs - with this occurring at the highest rate in Brampton. These economic migrants (ironically forced to seek economic refuge from destabilization ushered in their homelands via imperialist foreign policy from the likes of Canada, the US, EU) have no means of attaining a personal automobile for months at best, more commonly for multiple years and are thus forced to rely on Zum. They still have to walk unreasonable distances most of the time and service is severely inadequate (what can planners really even do... Brampton is a typical segregation-era North American auto-centric suburb). It gets pretty horrible for the 4-5 freezing months, but these people really have no other choice but to work multiple undesirable bottom-of-the-barrel lumpen jobs just to afford rent in their crowded (often illegal, unsafe) basement apartments. So relying on Zum is really their only choice. With that said, I think Zum really is head and shoulders above the other transit systems mentioned in this video. Of course that's not a high bar to clear. The GTA, being one of the four major metropoles of North America, is truly pitiful. Even Toronto itself would hardly qualify as a Tier 2 city by Chinese standards (with suburbs like North York, Mississauga, Brampton likely qualifying as Tier 3 or 4) and Canada has had a faar longer stable period to advance and develop compared to China.
YESSSSS! I've been saying that access to Peel would open up so much opportunity for the regions and would be the start of the end of relying on Toronto as a hub for transit
As a past bus user of YRT, TTC, Brampton and mississauga, its all the same to me. All agencies require you to wait for the approximate time in the time table, and wait in bus shelters for transfers. Buses may or may not arrive on time. Approximate wait time displays have helped expectations. Be prepared to take your time, listen to some podcasts or watch videos. No comment on GO buses or trains, I've never been on one. TTC buses has more users but more frequent, and Subway is useful to get to Toronto. Multiple fares still kind of suck but its a price to pay if you're using multiple services. PRESTO helps make it easier, not cheaper.
except that TTC has the fastest wait times, 5-10 minutes for the buses and 3-5 minutes for the subway (streetcars are longer i think); meanwhile for YRT, Brampton, and MiWay, they require people to wait for 30-45 minutes average, with only priority routes being 15-20 minutes. now true, there are some bus routes for the TTC that can take as long as those elsewhere, but they're typically for night buses and for areas like Scarborough.
I've always wondered why the Mississauga/Brampton LRT does not hook west from Gateway (Shoppers World) to pick up Sheridan College, then travel north along McLaughlin Road to Queen St. (#7) and then come East. To me Brampton is oriented East-West along Queen St., not North-South. This avoids the LRT coming through the historic part of Brampton and helps it connect to the GO Train line... (There is even the abandoned rail line in Brampton that can be used)
My city separated suburban and city buses into different companies with completely different vehicles, wayfinding and much higher fares. As a result the ridership dropped extremely.
Also, it removed the suburban buses from the city instead building bus stations on edges of the city forcing all passengers from the suburbs to transfer...
I had to take Viva buses in 2020 when I came to live here for the first time. I don't know if it changed but NEVER AGAIN! I lived in North York, near Finch station and worked in Markham. The Viva bus was almost always late, I had to way a very long time (20-40minutes most days) in the snow and cannot remember how many time the bus just didn't come and had to wait for the next one. I once missed my stop because the bus was full and it didn't stop, had to push everyone off the bus (because no one was letting me out) at the next station and go back down the York Rd3 by foot under -16°C. I hope they improved but I've had a really bad experience with them.
I thought from the thumbnail that one of the cities would be Ottawa (Zum has a similar livery to OC Transpo if you're looking at the front of the buses), considering that OC Transpo is about to drastically reduce suburban bus service (or at least it will here in eastern Nepean).
4:05 The only reason why the LRT in Peel doesn't connect to downtown Brampton is because Brampton was difficult - it was free line paid for by the Province and they argued over where the line should run to get into downtown Brampton..
The biggest issue with Brampton and why they're investing in a "subway" portion downtown is because the NIMBY's who live along the Main Street downtown corridor don't want to see their streets torn up or construction happen that would lower their property values by placing rails for the LRT through the middle of the street.. The reality however is that the subway extension is going to end up with significantly more construction than they realized, and there's just no winning. I really wish they would have just figured this out during the RFQ/RFP's but well... Can't say I'm surprised.
If I remember correctly, the higher level response was something about not wanting to ruin the “charm” of the historic downtown. Barf. The historic downtown is already suffering with half the retail units on Main St dead and the heritage theatre sitting empty but go off, Brampton. 🙃 (I live here so I feel entitled to be snarky lol)
We have to remember that both regions have fairly new BRT systems and it’s a great starting point. Reece brings up excellent opportunities for both systems to improve. With more density coming along Hwy 7 & Hurontario, transit will improve. A GO station at Concord & Hwy 7, extending Line 1 to Canada’s Wonderland and to hospital at Major Mackenzie will drive transit. Also Line 4 needs to extend west to Downsview Station to create a connection point between Barrie GO line and both subway lines. Then yes, Downvsview will become a hub. Extending Line 2 to Mississauga’s Downtown only seems natural.
I’d like to point out something about YRT, I think you may have mentioned it though. In your video about VIA’s “HFR”, the main point is that the frequency of a train relies on a decision by the operator to run more trains. Speed is something that requires better infrastructure, so we might as well build for speed. Obviously, the analogy doesn’t perfectly translate to busses, but it will be much easier for YRT to upgrade their system (run more busses) than it would be for Brampton.
As a resident of richmond hill living near the yonge street corridor, words cannot describe my dissapointment with the VIVA BRT system. I go to school in ottawa, a city that has a REAL BRT system (which i also happen to live quite close to), and the difference is night and day. Living in ottawa, i almost never have to consider any other transit option, whereas in richmond hill, i feel forced to drive everywhere no matter where my destination is. Componded with the fact that the infrastructure for the BRT took 6 years to complete, its hard to justify the need for a BRT when only ONE line serves the corridor and the connections to YRT are either non-existant or would require abhorrent transfer wait times. The transit line (like all project in this god forsaken city) feels like it was meant to move developers, not people. That subway extention cant come soon enough, although knowing metrolinx, it may not even be completed within my lifetime. Anyways, great video as always, and thanks for reading my little rant about my home town.
Frequency is the BIGGEST problem with YRT. People only use it because it's their only option. 2nd is the whole system only focuses on Hwy 7, that makes other East and West routes and ALL North and South routes very lacking.
I was recently on a bus that went from the Queensway & Confederation to Sherway Gardens. Whoever designed that route had apparently never heard of a straight line! 🙂
I don’t ever experience a 40 mins bus route. Use to live along 88 Bathurst each bus is 15-20 mins or 25 mins Now I live close to Jane 20 that every like 9 mins per bus if you miss one. Viva blue is infrequent but it comes every 15 mins due to the length of the route and the route is split into to one ends in Richmond hill and one go up to Newmarket that is why viva blue longer.
Keep in mind the GTA is the number four largest urban area in North America. Larger than the second tier American cities. Places like Houston and Atlanta and Miami and San Francisco and Seattle. Also, it is all on a single land mass. No ocean or lake or river crossings to make. And transit in Canada leap frogged over transit in America that wasted time and money on the postwar highway building.
If the service was more frequent then I assume normal buses would be fine. But some routes are heavily utilized and buses may still come only every 10-15 mins so they need to pack us all in there lol
London and old UK cities have narrow and short streets. Not really suited for bending buses. North American "Stroads" as Reese calls them are more suitable for bending buses. And of course you have to climb stairs. I don't know of elevators in double deckers. Maybe there are, who knows?!
They need to make a GO train that just goes from areas in York Region directly to areas in the Peel region. GO transit needs to realize not everyone works downtown. So you can't just make all the trains go downtown then connect them. There is so much travel time required when it is set up this way.
I am a person who will willingly take transit if it is at least feasible. Yes yes, I own a personal vehicle, I just don’t want to drive. But for a transit agency whose sole purpose is to carry passengers, to make even attempting to use the service a massive ordeal, is absolute nonsense. They haven’t even gotten to the phase where we could complain about frequency or trip times, because they still haven’t figured out the necessity of round trip service. We had routes so underutilized that the drivers started asking why we were running routes in half million dollar motorcoaches, when they could very easily be run in our sedans.
As someone who lives in downtown Toronto and travels to Mississauga for work, the connectivity between the two cities is a complete mess. Travelling most places within Mississauga itself is a pain. There is so much room to improve the route planning and schedules of go trains.
It still amazes me that North American cities still persist with the model where transit agencies only service "the city of..." or "the county of....". I prefer the Australian model where the metropolitan area is treated as one organic city ignoring lines on maps that separate local governments (the exception being Brisbane)
the viva buses are few and far between and even then the buses are basically empty. It would be kind to call the Viva bus lanes a white elephant. The lines are disconnected in many areas and all they've done is increase travel time for cars by at least 50%. The worst traffic in york region is everywhere the viva bus lanes are: highway 7 east (especially between leslie and woodbine), yonge street (as soon as you hit the bus lanes heading north traffic slows to a crawl) and highway 7 west (this is especially true around Jane street). With all the development planned for the highway 7 and jane area I believe this will be the worst intersection in the country. Take the disaster around highway 7 in Markam and now add hundreds of trucks servicing the businesses in the area and the railyards). I recently had the miss fortune of driving on highway 7 west bound and it took me 15 minutes to travel from over the rail yards to Jane street (about 1.1 km). Metrolinx had the gall to run an ad prior to a movie a went to see recently trying to placate people into thinking that they are improving things in the Toronto area. If Putin really wants to destroy the infrastructure of the Ukraine then I suggest he hire Metrolinx to build a transit line rather than use bombs.
Instead of a dundas BRT in mississauga, I would extend TTC Line 2 on a surface alignment beside Milton GO tracks to UofT mississauga (underground though)
I think a major part of Brampton transit's success is the huge immigrant and international student population. The seats are usually all occupied And rush hour buses are filled to the brim. But I dont think it retains its users, especially since students and immigrants aim to buy a car as soon as possible, the people who use transit dont have any other option. So maybe its profitable as long as new immigrants keep coming
I hate the new Kipling bus terminal because they placed it SO FAR away from the actual Kipling subway station. 😡 It's also not very accomodation friendly to injured, disabled, or elderly riders (crutches, wheelchair, walking with a cane or walker, etc.) because it takes so long to walk that distance. For comparison, the TTC bus terminal is literally just above the Kipling subway platforms.
Yeah, there is nothing more depressing than getting to your bus stop, knowing the bus is on a 42 minute schedule, and watching your bus leave. Problem with frequent service is that it is expensive and the low ridership during off-peak periods doesn't feed the kitty much. The demands on municipalities seems to have no limits but the revenue stream is. Well, I'm from the US, maybe Canada is different. You don't say much about these communities, transit depends on population density while family centered suburbs tend to want that to be fairly low, conflicting needs. Given your climate, any kind of transit station needs a comfortable waiting facility but keeping them less like a private ski lodge is sometimes difficult. Municipalities like to build things, back in the day the private railways built stations that did the job, a waiting room that kept the rain out and a coal stove to keep the chill off with a room for the ticket guy and maybe a rest room, all in a nice wooden box. Amtrak stations either look like a toll station on a turnpike or the half billion dollar palace of Moynihan station in NYC with very little in between.
The best thing Toronto could do is have their own version of TFL that controls transit for the entire GTA and creates one big integrated network. Having 3 different regions with 3 different agencies all taking different approaches is totally nonsensical to anyone who isn't local and understands all the local politics. I suppose it's similar to your comments about London's fragmented commuter rail system, but in reverse. For locals it's fine. For anyone else, it seems silly.
York's BRT is like buying a corvette, and only driving it to the store down the street at speeds not exceeding 30kmph.
The hwy 7 BRT needs 5-8 minute headways before anyone takes it seriously. Bathurst needs BRT to Willison and York Mills stations ASAP as well
Yes! I grew up in York region and transit was straight up unusable for most trips. I lived right next to a bus stop but never used it because the bus only came hourly. Viva Blue is the one decent line but you can't really use it if your destination isn't walking distance from a station.
Also why do York region bus drivers drive so SLOW? They literally drive at 40km/h even when they have dedicated lanes.
By the way, when Viva first launched, they promised all day service with headways of 15 mins or less...wonder what happened to that promise
@@kotaabe5953to stay on schedule, 40 km probably is the target...😢
Cars with low enough hoods to see the road in front of them driving reasonable speeds ❤
8:32 ah, the joy of missing the morning train to Kitchener and waiting 3 hours for the next one
Hopefully not for long!
what would be really wild if you check and it turned out to be faster to take the LW to Aldershot, then get on the 17 to U of Waterloo in that instance
Honestly.. the Go train + route 30/17 combination does not take much longer than the train. Yes the transfer is a little inconvenient but its not that bad
York Region: Provides no service.
*no one rides YRT*
York Reion: *Suprised Pikachu*
I used to ride the Viva buses fairly often about 15 years ago.
Brampton has soo much potential in terms of transit infastructure. Downtown Brampton is in pace to be set up as an amazing transit hub if they play their cards right.
- GO Train access directly to the core of Downtown Brampton
- Hurontario LRT extension to the core of Downtown Brampton
- Queen/Hwy 7 BRT extension to the core of Downtown Brampton
I guess you live in Brampton, right?!
False. Bramptonians support Patrick Brown and Patrick Brown is the reason why the Hurontario LRT stops where it does and it does not go through Brampton. Brampton's voterbase by and large doesn't use transit and doesn't want tax increases. Kitchener-Waterloo and Hamilton are leading transit initiatives outside of the GTA.
Dont fofget abt brampton currently saving the ORBY ROW for a potential GO or LRT or something with missisauga-union
Different Spokes is also right there in Downtown Brampton!!! It is a DIY community bike hub in front of the main st. ZUM stop in Downtown Brampton. We work with BikeBrampton and PUnjabi community health services to empower folks to choose bikes over cars.
Gosh if you guys are still around before December you should definitely definitely drop by next week on Monday, W🎉ednesday or Thursday after 3 before we close for Dec.
So congrats that there's now an announcement to help extend it out to Brampton GO, it'll be an expensive extension for sure but connection wise it will be amazing.
as someone who lives in mississauga, it baffles me that the milton line hasnt been upgraded for better service yet. my trip downtown goes from 40 minutes on the milton line to an hour and a half taking the lakeshore, and this is the case for so many of us here in sauga. its so frustrating seeing the government prioritize highways as opposed to upgrading the connection between the two largest cities in the area.
More public transit = fewer cars = less congestion = less need for highway
Both sides are incompetent but the Tories don't even hide the fact that they prioritize business interests.
I think it's because Metrolinx doesn't own the track of the Milton line, so they have to rely on cooperation from CN (or CP) rail to run the Milton service
What highways have they propritized? No new highways have been made in 20 years.
@@orly3000 Except for the new planned highway that is(was?) planned to cut straight through protected areas.
I love when people call it sauga...
🐑🐑🐑
that's something, even many European cities still have to learn: Within a city you can usually also bike and maybe even walk to reach your destination - so transit there is only one option of many (and in many cases the least preferred one…). But between cities the distances may become to long, so transit becomes the ONLY alternative to driving. And drivers will then drive right into the city, demanding for unlimited free parking.
Take for example Paris or New York: No sane person would drive a car there, because it get's you nowhere except into the next traffic jam. But all the people from further outside just drive there, because its how they do ANY travel even within their own home town.
it feels really cool having someone on youtube describing the transit of where I live and so in-depth LIKE I USE THESE LINES AND SERVICES ITS SO CRAZY TO SEE A RUclipsR ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THEM AHHHHHHH idk I just love when there more content than just tornto and you actually delve into the transit surrounding it so thank you for posting this, I feel extremely seen, I knew every single place you mentioned LOL THATS CRAZY
Fr fr
Another piece of evidence york's brt was built to look pretty and never be used: the all glass design turns what should be a source of shade into a greenhouse during the summer. It's hellish.
We had the same complaint about a new bus stop in my country but that got dissed as a first world problem. At least the bus stop still can shelter passengers from rain
What stands out to me for York vs Peel is the subway extensions, it makes getting around a thousand times more convenient. Continuing the west side of Line 1 up to Vaughan Mills and Wonderland would be great.
Honestly, I think VMC station is a sufficient terminus station. It's already a hub and if York wants to provide connections from there, that should be on YRT's end.
York is already getting another extension, I think its a bit much to keep pandering to York. It's about time that TTC reached out to Mississauga (the whenever ECLRT west extension is a start)
However, they are also expensive and not well used. Not sure whether that's still true with the number of condos going up in Vaughan.
@@takatomon It's more a matter of distance and corridor continuity than pandering. Mississauga City Centre is a lot father than Richmond Hill Centre and there's no "Burnhamthorpe Line" to extend to it. I think MCC being planned at Burnhamthorpe Rd. rather than at Dundas St. was a big mistake.
i think the primary issue is it would be stealing money away from vaughans transit system. another issue is seasonality... so like lets say vaughn runs an LRT there or the TTC extends the subway, well what good is that service that is almost only going to be popular for 25%-30% of the year? Even more expensive if you consider the cost of a subway.
So building it wouldn't help any transit agency, really and it certainly wouldn't help the people of Vaughan. On top of that Wonderland doesn't have much issues at the gate so there's very little added efficiency, just more tax burden for the sake of a minor seasonal convenience of rail vs special bus.
personally... government should never build permanent transit for a singular business, only accommodate around the general activity of the population. So yes, sometimes you get a business that can gain a benefit like some of the more recent Toronto transit plans, but if those businesses didn't exist, there would still be a point to those lines. If Wonderland didn't exist, that rail would be a train to nowhere.
My grandparents live in Newmarket and I’m always amazed when I drive down past all the brand new bus stops and never actually see a bus at any of them
I think a useful thing to bring up would be the fare structure, specifically how local trips in both cities are refunded if you use GO - unlike Toronto (for now), and the fact that the 905 co-fare agreement means that you can transfer from MiWay to BT and to YRT all on one fare - unlike Toronto (hopefully for now).
Afaik thats whats happening under the fare integration agreement for Toronto!
@@RMTransit That's why I specified "(for now)". I'll wait until its actually out before I make definitive judgements.
@@RMTransit Any idea when this is supposed to be implemented?
@@justinrobinson61There's no exact date yet. It was originally announced for the end of 2023 but now it's scheduled for sometime in early 2024.
One thing about MiWay and ZUM, while you can transfer between them, if you board ZUM first, it will cost more than boarding MiWay first. Also, MiWay lets you off in the Square One terminal, but ZUM drops you off on the road beside the terminal.
I haven't looked at your subscriber count in a while, and holy crap. You're doing amazing!! Congrats Reece!
The nice thing about reece is he doesn't try to behave like a transitbro know it all.
And also doesn't try to force trains on every location.
@@makisekurisu4674you can put trains nearly everywhere. But yeah those remaining 1% of places don't need them if you can achieve other permanent rapid transit
Thanks, I love what I do and try to do a good job!
Please make video on the middle east for once.
Lots of transit projects happening there.@@RMTransit
Thank you for another great video. I'm very glad that we're covering the suburbs this time (I'm from Mississauga). I agree that Peel and York have so much potential to push public transit and become hubs of their own!
I think the future of Peel Regions transit success rests on whether or not the two cities are willing to cooperate. In a perfect world I think the 2 agencies should merge especially with the Hurontario LRT coming into fruition.
YRT literally just needs to try harder. The whole system and service has so much potential but feels like a lazy attempt to just barely provide service. VIVA could easily be the best service in the GTA, and yet, as mentioned Züm makes more use out of the Hwy 7 corridor than VIVA itself. Durham Region Transit is also pretty bad and maybe even worse than YRT cause they haven’t really recovered from the pandemic, but even more so.
Brampton and Miss coordinate pretty well today, unfortunately I think the Hurontario LRT was a big missed opportunity to do more
But with the dissolution of Peel region the chance of the 2 agencies merging is even less
YRT is Privatised UK-Style, and that's why it sucks.
(This is what's coming to Ottawa in 2026, at this rate).
The fact that Hurontario LRT isn't connected to the city centre of Mississauga directly and is also not connected to the Kitchener line is disappointing.@@RMTransit
Caledon should not be a single-tier municipalty. It is not a large city unlike Mississauga and you can consider Brampton too..@@someone_2
This just vindicates my opinion on YRT/VIVA. I love the viva infrastructure and those new comfy seats on the new YRT buses but the frequency is so terrible that I rarely, if ever ride it.
Frequency and Infrastructure are both important, but at the low end frequency is more important
Grew up in York Region and without a car through my college years. YRT is a pain. (If you spell YRT backward is "TRY") The frequency and coverage is horrendous. YRT buses run based on schedule. Until recently, there are only 2 buses covering Kennedy route and on a 30 min frequency. Driver would literally crawl the bus at 30km/h when traffic is good to hit the checkpoint right on-time. Vice versa of course. (McCowan and Warden bus operated by TTC - 3 buses, every 20 mins).
Unless you work downtown core and take the GO train, or live near Steeles. Prepare to buy a car and sit in traffic. Either way, you are still better than riding TRY
"YRT. There is no TRY. YRT or YRT not." -- Yoda, Grandmaster of York Public Transportation
Nothing wrong with running on schedules in theory, even half hourly schedules (if there are well timed transfers to higher order transport)
The schedules are often not regular, making aligning trips with hourly or half hourly regional services impossible
I grew up in Oakville, back in the 60s. The buses were run by Norton bus lines on a very poor schedule. They'd run every 2 hours from 6 AM to 6 PM, IIRC, with an extra bus thrown in at 5 PM. They often were school buses, as Norton also had the school bus contract. I could walk into town and back (about 3 miles each way) between buses. There were also a few times I walked home from high school, because there was no bus available. Want to go somewhere on Sunday? Forget about it, no buses at all!
Damn that's really sad to hear. Why bother having things like dedicated lanes if buses are still gonna drive at a snails pace.
Seeing so much footage from Mississauga is so nostalgic for me. I want to go back to see for myself what the transit is like now compared to when I lived there 10 years ago.
I been saying that the double tracking project on Stouffville line should have gone all the way to mount joy. As a frequent rider when we had full service last year and earlier this year, trains were coming back full to mount joy.
I will never stop wishing for a line 2 extension skytrain style along Dundas to cooksville GO, before tunnelling under confederation blvd to stop at celebration square, before terminating at the city centre terminal. The crosstown should absolutely get extended along the transitway as well! Mississauga needs better TTC connections!
I guess I've said this before, but I think having most city level public transport managed by the state/province (or at least an entity which has jurisdiction over an entire contiguous metropolitan area) is one of the keys to good public transport.
Edit: see also, Perth, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide* (Adelaide does this but the public transport is still mid), not Brisbane, and how they're usually better than equivalent NA cities.
I think a unified Transit Agency/Transport assosiciation with integrated Tickets is the solution here
New York though
@@theexcaliburone5933 I don't know much about New York, but I think New York would be much better if NJT, Metro North and the LIRR had integrated ticketing, and having those services throughrun with each other and/or the subway (the latter bit being similar to what Tokyo does I guess). Doing that with NJT might be politically infeasible, but I don't think there's a good reason why that couldn't or shouldn't be done with the other three.
@@illiiilli24601 having two or more states contribute to one overarching Transit Agency could work: see the DC Metro.
It also could be a nightmare and a lot of battles over funding: see the DC Metro.
Also the mbta in Massachusetts and mta in New York are both great services which are operated by the state
Why doesn’t Toronto have a “circle” line connecting all the GO and subway lines around downtown and surrounding suburbs? I think there’s huge potential if one is built in the future
The Midtown Corridor is probably what you're talking about there. While proposals have come and gone, it doesn't seem like something that's going to happen anytime soon. Freight rail is not going to let that corridor go easily and it may literally be cheaper to build a whole new corridor running alongside one of the 400-freeways instead.
Realistically? Because everyone in the suburbs has a car. The reasons people take transit are 1. Downtowners without cars getting around and 2. Suburbanites who don't want to pay for downtown parking. Anyone trying to get from Markham to Sauga would just hop on the 407.
Summary:
York: Good Infrastructure, Poor Service.
Peel: Eh infrastructure, Exellent Service.
The loop around Square One was part of the original plan, but was killed when Doug Ford became premier. He also killed a platform extension at the Cooksville GO station that would have directly connected to the LRT stop. Also, on some routes, both MiWay and ZUM are available, though ZUM costs more than MiWay.
The loop has been reinstated.
@@ALuimes Has it? I know there's talk about it from the city. Nothing on extending the GO platform either.
Good video. Last summer I went to Canada and I tried Züm & Brampton Transit. I got to say North America has a long way to go before the bus service is ideal. Züm is simply not frequent enough and its annoying to see that the GTA doesn't have 1 transport organisation that manages all public transport like TFL in London.
Viva on Davis Drive is the same. It has beautiful dedicated bus lanes, which took years of construction to build... And yet, the local Newmarket bus drives right alongside the dedicated lanes, stuck sharing regular driving lanes with other vehicles.
We need York Regions Infrastructure and Peel Regions frequency mashed up together 🙏
YRT Operator here... Every time I come here... I am abused lmao, we need to do better, iit was bad before covid and worse after. especially in newmarket, most of the "under preforming" routes were cut so "improve" service in vaughan, I haven't seen any extra runs added anywhere though
If you live in Newmarket, you need a car. Buses are literally cater to senior w/o car and students w/o a DL.
7:31 very minor correction, the Hwy 407 GO Bus corridor stops at *Langstaff GO* (directly under Hwy 407), not Richmond Hill GO which is 4km north on Major Mackenzie. Also, speaking of opulent bus terminals, it also stops at its namesake Hwy 407 station on line 1 of the TTC subway which imo kinda makes the future Barrie Line transfer at Concord redundant. (At least until I see Downsview Park getting higher ridership numbers.)
But yes great video Reece, it does seem like YRT is painfully aware of its frequency problems given their announcement of a frequent transit network, but rollout for it has been subglacial, with a handful of routes getting slight improvements every year. (The 16th Avenue bus for example got bumped from ~30 min frequency to ~20 and it's already a good step in the right direction with noticeable effects.) I wonder what the bottleneck is in this process. I'm aware that they recently expanded the storage facility for VIVA buses for example.
I have to go to Richmond Hill GO station to get a part for my water filter at the
place that makes them. The company is near the Richmond Hill GO station.
But I'm in Nova Scotia...! How do I get there?!!
Here in Ottawa with OC Transpo, I’m planning to move to that subdivision called “Out of Service”, as most of the busses at the Blair Road Station seem to be going there. . . 😊
You haven’t seen anything yet. And this ought to be a topic for discussion.
I used to drive for a transit agency notorious for only going one way. Picked up my coach at an ungodly hour of the morning, still technically night, drive empty a third of the way across the county, start the run, run half the route before one lady got on, drove her to her destination, and drove empty back to the garage. The route was 82 miles. We were in service for 30 of them.
The brass claimed ridership was too low to increase service, though as I pointed out, nobody in their right mind would take a bus to a place from which they couldn’t get home.
Suburban only train routes are also a great feature of great suburban transit! Sydney Trains T5 is a great example! I think getting around the major suburban areas should be able to be done fully on rail while getting around the neighborhood should be done on those smaller BRT systems you showed us. Hence, we need more suburban only routes on Americas "commuter rail" systems. Hence, I think the 407 rapid bus corridor should be light rail, connecting the radial GO lines.
Brampton/Peel Region has so much potential compared to York region. York Region has become a very car-dominated suburb so is more difficult and will take time for people to make the switch to transit options. Brampton is the fastest-growing region in the GTA and has a very high demand for improved public transportation with its already much higher ridership. If Brampton plays its card correctly, it can become one of the best transit-oriented cities in Canada.
There's also bike infrastructure. And I think the suburbs have a better time building bike infrastructure than Toronto, especially with their wider RoWs.
@@jiecut What is RoW?
@@laurlore11 Right of Way. Road size.
Yesss!! We worked with the city to discuss how to improve bike parking in downtown, and adding things like ramps to allow folks to bring their bikes on buses.
Brampton also has a demographic and income factor which creates lots of captive ridership; lots of Indians and multiple families crammed into one house. Not to mention international students making some of these nice-looking suburbs closer to being slums.
The Milton line is especially infuriating because the direct buses (route 21) that used to follow that general route now don't even go to Toronto, they take you down to the Lakeshore line to catch a train there.
I think the transit ridership in York is skewed because of the differences in vehicle accessibility into Toronto. Unlike Mississauga, and even more so Brampton, York region's southern-most cities of Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham have residents with the closest and most direct routes into the city. With the 404/Don Valley, 400/Black Creek, and the alternative north-south major roads, we see a lot of people living in these cities who are wealthy enough to just drive into the city when they need to for the convenience. Yes, they have options to choose transit like the Viva, Go Busses, and Go Trains but with on average higher levels of income in these cities, most choose that more expensive personal vehicle option for the convenience. That and the inconvenience of finding a terminal to get onto the transit system in the first place which could see the same levels of traffic delay.
I remember when the York BRT was proposed as well as the subway extension up to YU. It seems that not much has changed in YRT, even with the BRT running. The university must have an influence on scheduling?
Most people take TTC. They come 3x more frequently than York BRT.
Brampton Transit and TTC still service the campus quite frequentlly. Unfortunately, don't think YU is the one to blame for YRT's shitty schedule here.
Wait... they're building a TTC extension to Richmond Hill????!!!! That's great news!! I've been screaming for this for years!!
One of the biggest problems with pretty much every suburban GTA city, all of the cities in Peel and York included, is that its simply too easy to drive. All of these cities have dumped a ton of money into improving transit within their cities, and its definitely paid dividends, but there's a ceiling as to how good it can. A lot of people are inevitably going to think "why bother with a transit system, even a good one, when you can just hop in your car and get there in the same amount of time in your own private metal box." I also think this is part of why Brampton and Mississauga tend to have much better transit ridership than Vaughan or Markham, as they tend to be a lot more congested and therefore driving is a lot less convenient.
this is the main reason why I think the Hurontario LRT had to be surface rail. If you buried the line underground not only would it cost more but you would also still have 6 lanes of traffic dedicated to cars, leading to less incentive to opt for the LRT unless you don't own a car and you literally have no other choice. Yeah i guess you could have an underground subway and a road diet at the same time, but putting the train in the centre median solves that problem for you. 4 lanes is still a lot, tbh, but its a lot less than 6, and that lack of space will provide more of an incentive to make a different choice when needing to use Hurontario. Its not a perfect solution, but its a start.
Or build it above ground! The street is gigantic!
I really don't think transit should be focused on making other options worse, if the bus takes the same amount of time as a car (or even a reasonable amount more than a car) theres already tons of reasons to take it - cars aren't cheap!
@@RMTransit elevated rail would be a lot more expensive than a surface rail and i dont think the service difference would be that much greater in order to justify the increased cost. Besides, during the original meetings when the line was proposed, neither elevated nor underground rail was suggested as an option by Metrolinx, likely due to the aforementioned cost issue. The only options on the table were LRT, BRT, a mix of the two, and LRT is definitely the preferred option of the three.
@@RMTransit Cars a re "sunk cost". You PAID for it, it depreciates whether you use it or not (actually not true). Also, many car costs are not visibly scaling with miles drive, so people usually only figure the cost of gas and parking versus the cost of transit. And even then, "good" transit will often win. Having "feeders", something that GO does well is also key.
What a lazy take. Sabotage existing infrastructure rather than invest in and provide a competitive alternative.
Transit buses of competing cities usually don't wait for disembarking passengers . Bus drivers are trained to wait for passengers . Lay overs are essential for passengers and drivers . We all need washroom breaks .
Issues for each gta system that i used
Miway: less going round & round bus trips
Brampton transit: need better connection between buses, i often miss connection my a minute or so for the bus.
Yrt: more frequent services
Ttc: stop bunching buses together have 2-3 minute seperation between buses.
Brampton transit needs better infrastructure for sure. I think one thing that makes this difficult is space. You really gotta think outside the box to make things fit on Brampton roads. Gateway terminal for instance is at a congested intersection (steels and hurontario) and is beside a shopping mall. The Downtown Station is so tiny it's a small engineering feet that a go bus station, a train station and a Brampton transit are actually all there. The good thing is the city is aware and projects the Hurontario LRT, Queen BRT will help them understand how to get this right.
YRT needs to think about boosting a lot of local buses, since those have the potential to save 20+ minutes on the average commute.
Brampton still has a long way to go, but it has gotten a little better over the years and shockingly sometimes when I take the bus and check the bus times, it actually comes on time! I also noticed I dont wait as long as I used to wait for the bus which is pretty nice. But there has still been many times where the bus comes late or doesn't come at all Or it comes delayed causing me to miss the go train. Which during non-peak hours comes every hour:( Hopefully they keep working on it tho.
It's gotten significantly better. Pre-2020 I regularly took Brampton transit to Brampton Go and then the go train to downtown Toronto and in the 10 years I was doing that, it was vastly improved.
This video is coming at a very interesting time! If y'all are interested in Brampton transit, the city is hosting town halla on how downtown Brampton will look as a transit hub!
Mississauga's Miway 35 route is atrocious. LITERALLY 95% of the riders are International students from Brampton, enrolled in private colleges, and most (almost all) of them hop off on Mavis road to get Miway 61 to Brampton. Miway 35 and 61 has been EXTREMELY exhausted by Brampton International students. I mean no hate towards students but, I wish Brampton and Mississauga had better solutions to tackle this congestion.
MiWay is probably making all the profits from the students which is why they wouldn't dare try to fix it 🤣
66 too. So much so that they've upped the frequency to literally every 10 minutes, and it's still always full coming out of Brampton.
With York, I think it's important to remember that the region is not as dense, as compared to peel. Population spread is also great more vast. It's good that the infrastructure is there, as York is growing at a fast pace. While more frequent service would be great, I think the region is well prepared and developed for future transit
York is more dense as compared to peel.
You talked about Peel and York, can you complete the circle and talk about Durham?
I will make a Durham video at some point yeah
@@RMTransit thanks. I'm particularly interested in your take on the Simcoe Street Transit project being planned for Oshawa.
Oh my god, as a frequent York bus user, this video sings to me. You know York has a problem when I ride the Zum more than the YRT depite never stepping a foot in peel region (thank you 501 down Hwy 7, you are my saviour even if you're always overcrowded
Please make a video about Grand River Transit, i'm begging you!
This video is still great, by the way!
Brampton Transit made me change my decision of not applying for G2 (and buying a car) for as long as I can, to start learning G2 after 8 months, in just 4 months, while 2 initial years of mine were so smooth thanks to TTC (960, 36, 939, 96, etc) and VIVA.
The general service pattern of BRT, larger stop spacing and higher frequency, is really great for very suburban areas. It can make up for what is generally a transit penalty in especially sprawled areas where long travel distances are a necessity
The suburb of Seattle I grew up in developed something some people might equate to a “poor mans BRT.” SWIFT doesn’t have full center bus lanes but does have BAT lanes in different areas, 10 minute frequencies, signal priority, and offboard payment (using recycled parking ticket machines on the cheap). It was said to be the first brt or rapid bus style line in Washington state done on a tight budget of $29 Million dollars and designed in-house back in 2009 for the initial 16.7 mile line
There’s obviously room for much more improvement. I think SWIFT can be more frequent and be given even more bus lane priority. But I’m happy to see the SWIFT network expand to serve different neighborhoods in Snohomish county and plans to intersect with higher form transit lines like rail stations and such. Locally it does feel like the system was a bit of a trailblazer of sorts influencing much bigger agencies like Seattle’s King county metro to adopt the rapid bus model as well years later
What is a BAT lane? And what is the urban population of Seattle? Millions?
@@michaelrmurphy2734 BAT: Bus And Turning lane.
Essentially along a road with many intersections and business lots a lane on the side of the road closest to the sidewalk can be made only for buses and right hand turning vehicles meaning buses drive the whole length of the lane while the only other vehicles that end up in the lane are right hand turning vehicles.
The next step up would be median running BRT like you see on the Van Ness San Francisco BRT for instance
Nowadays newer BRT lines in more urban areas like Seattle have full median running and boarding to facilitate higher throughput like 6 minute or better frequencies
OH, OK. So on the right hand side of the street then? Not a median lane.
Snohomish county, right? Yeah, I use the swift all the time to get to school and living closeby to a stop is quite convenient, despite the close proximity to a highway. I'm excited about the new Orange line that's starting service late March. It connects a bunch of stuff like the local college, the mall, transit center, etc., and I'm curious to see how it'll be integrated with the other swift lines and the new Link extension.
The Surrey-Langley extension is essentially just an extension of the Expo Line to Vancouver though, it's not a special suburb to suburb rapid transit system like the other ones discussed in this video
Yup: Comparing Metro Vancouver to the GTA is not accurate. Surrey is basically a borough of what is essentially one City of Vancouver with the Expo Line a municipal subway line. Peel and York are suburban counties politically unrelated to Toronto.
The issue with suburbs is always the lack of density. Sure, if you throw enough money at it you could always get a good transit system, but if the buses are always half empty, it's not money well spent.
The night bus network of Berlin is really interesting and amazing! Could you talk about it?
@Reece Since you're now doing bus videos, why not feature NYC with its internal express bus system and its suburban service from NJ? Also, the busway systems in Los Angeles and Pittsburgh, and the Silver Line system in Boston.
NY is a confusing mess, even for new yorkers.
York region is like 3 real estate developers in a trench coat. Their transit system is a disgrace.
I saw a bus with 'Zum Steele' on its front and for a minute I thought: "Why does a bus in Canada show its destination in German?" 😅
I think it’s remarkable that our Province talks about smashing a new highway (supposedly with transit) through the greenbelt. Meanwhile the fancy BRT lanes sit empty in York region and there is zero transit service right now to the areas the 413 will serve. Transit needs to be more of a priority.
Wow! That was like 100 good ideas, delivered without stopping!
For all of the hiccups that the Brampton, Peele and Mississauga regions have when it comes to suburban transit, it’s miles ahead of most American cities which have little or no suburban transit.
The classic Canadian pasttime: reflecting on all the ways it is marginally better to live in Canada than the States
@@Cobalt985 I actually think that America does a lot better than Canada in a lot of areas, but Canada does have the edge when it comes to transit, especially in its suburbs.
I think that's a built-in, unacknowledged structural trick for making Canadians quiescent. Something here sucks, when compared to the rest of the developed world, but we accept it, uncomplainingly, because south of the border it sucks a little worse.@@Cobalt985
I think we should be careful not to overexaggerate how effective Zum is. A major reason ridership has increased continuously is because predatory Canadian immigration policy displaces vulnerable people from the global south and imports them to Toronto suburbs - with this occurring at the highest rate in Brampton. These economic migrants (ironically forced to seek economic refuge from destabilization ushered in their homelands via imperialist foreign policy from the likes of Canada, the US, EU) have no means of attaining a personal automobile for months at best, more commonly for multiple years and are thus forced to rely on Zum.
They still have to walk unreasonable distances most of the time and service is severely inadequate (what can planners really even do... Brampton is a typical segregation-era North American auto-centric suburb). It gets pretty horrible for the 4-5 freezing months, but these people really have no other choice but to work multiple undesirable bottom-of-the-barrel lumpen jobs just to afford rent in their crowded (often illegal, unsafe) basement apartments. So relying on Zum is really their only choice.
With that said, I think Zum really is head and shoulders above the other transit systems mentioned in this video. Of course that's not a high bar to clear. The GTA, being one of the four major metropoles of North America, is truly pitiful. Even Toronto itself would hardly qualify as a Tier 2 city by Chinese standards (with suburbs like North York, Mississauga, Brampton likely qualifying as Tier 3 or 4) and Canada has had a faar longer stable period to advance and develop compared to China.
YESSSSS! I've been saying that access to Peel would open up so much opportunity for the regions and would be the start of the end of relying on Toronto as a hub for transit
Wondering if you’ll do a video on Edmonton’s Valley Line that opened earlier this month.
As a past bus user of YRT, TTC, Brampton and mississauga, its all the same to me. All agencies require you to wait for the approximate time in the time table, and wait in bus shelters for transfers. Buses may or may not arrive on time. Approximate wait time displays have helped expectations. Be prepared to take your time, listen to some podcasts or watch videos. No comment on GO buses or trains, I've never been on one. TTC buses has more users but more frequent, and Subway is useful to get to Toronto. Multiple fares still kind of suck but its a price to pay if you're using multiple services. PRESTO helps make it easier, not cheaper.
except that TTC has the fastest wait times, 5-10 minutes for the buses and 3-5 minutes for the subway (streetcars are longer i think); meanwhile for YRT, Brampton, and MiWay, they require people to wait for 30-45 minutes average, with only priority routes being 15-20 minutes. now true, there are some bus routes for the TTC that can take as long as those elsewhere, but they're typically for night buses and for areas like Scarborough.
Frequency has always been my main gripe with the YRT, especially on weekends.
I've always wondered why the Mississauga/Brampton LRT does not hook west from Gateway (Shoppers World) to pick up Sheridan College, then travel north along McLaughlin Road to Queen St. (#7) and then come East. To me Brampton is oriented East-West along Queen St., not North-South. This avoids the LRT coming through the historic part of Brampton and helps it connect to the GO Train line... (There is even the abandoned rail line in Brampton that can be used)
My city separated suburban and city buses into different companies with completely different vehicles, wayfinding and much higher fares. As a result the ridership dropped extremely.
Also, it removed the suburban buses from the city instead building bus stations on edges of the city forcing all passengers from the suburbs to transfer...
@@mewosh_that's a rip man. Transfers are good, but only if the frequencies/scheduling are good enough to support them
5:42 is renforth station and the bus is 35 w , omg thats my uni bus, crazzzy im always there
I had to take Viva buses in 2020 when I came to live here for the first time.
I don't know if it changed but NEVER AGAIN!
I lived in North York, near Finch station and worked in Markham.
The Viva bus was almost always late, I had to way a very long time (20-40minutes most days) in the snow and cannot remember how many time the bus just didn't come and had to wait for the next one.
I once missed my stop because the bus was full and it didn't stop, had to push everyone off the bus (because no one was letting me out) at the next station and go back down the York Rd3 by foot under -16°C.
I hope they improved but I've had a really bad experience with them.
I thought from the thumbnail that one of the cities would be Ottawa (Zum has a similar livery to OC Transpo if you're looking at the front of the buses), considering that OC Transpo is about to drastically reduce suburban bus service (or at least it will here in eastern Nepean).
Great video❤❤❤
4:05 The only reason why the LRT in Peel doesn't connect to downtown Brampton is because Brampton was difficult - it was free line paid for by the Province and they argued over where the line should run to get into downtown Brampton..
The biggest issue with Brampton and why they're investing in a "subway" portion downtown is because the NIMBY's who live along the Main Street downtown corridor don't want to see their streets torn up or construction happen that would lower their property values by placing rails for the LRT through the middle of the street.. The reality however is that the subway extension is going to end up with significantly more construction than they realized, and there's just no winning.
I really wish they would have just figured this out during the RFQ/RFP's but well... Can't say I'm surprised.
If I remember correctly, the higher level response was something about not wanting to ruin the “charm” of the historic downtown. Barf. The historic downtown is already suffering with half the retail units on Main St dead and the heritage theatre sitting empty but go off, Brampton. 🙃 (I live here so I feel entitled to be snarky lol)
Living in Markham and having taken a combination of YRT and VIVA to highschool, this is bang on.
We have to remember that both regions have fairly new BRT systems and it’s a great starting point. Reece brings up excellent opportunities for both systems to improve. With more density coming along Hwy 7 & Hurontario, transit will improve. A GO station at Concord & Hwy 7, extending Line 1 to Canada’s Wonderland and to hospital at Major Mackenzie will drive transit. Also Line 4 needs to extend west to Downsview Station to create a connection point between Barrie GO line and both subway lines. Then yes, Downvsview will become a hub. Extending Line 2 to Mississauga’s Downtown only seems natural.
Miway does have an express network the 100 series lines these often run long and congested routes 😊
Line 2 extended to Mississauga C.C. would be very handy!
I’d like to point out something about YRT, I think you may have mentioned it though.
In your video about VIA’s “HFR”, the main point is that the frequency of a train relies on a decision by the operator to run more trains. Speed is something that requires better infrastructure, so we might as well build for speed.
Obviously, the analogy doesn’t perfectly translate to busses, but it will be much easier for YRT to upgrade their system (run more busses) than it would be for Brampton.
As a resident of richmond hill living near the yonge street corridor, words cannot describe my dissapointment with the VIVA BRT system. I go to school in ottawa, a city that has a REAL BRT system (which i also happen to live quite close to), and the difference is night and day. Living in ottawa, i almost never have to consider any other transit option, whereas in richmond hill, i feel forced to drive everywhere no matter where my destination is. Componded with the fact that the infrastructure for the BRT took 6 years to complete, its hard to justify the need for a BRT when only ONE line serves the corridor and the connections to YRT are either non-existant or would require abhorrent transfer wait times. The transit line (like all project in this god forsaken city) feels like it was meant to move developers, not people. That subway extention cant come soon enough, although knowing metrolinx, it may not even be completed within my lifetime. Anyways, great video as always, and thanks for reading my little rant about my home town.
Frequency is the BIGGEST problem with YRT. People only use it because it's their only option.
2nd is the whole system only focuses on Hwy 7, that makes other East and West routes and ALL North and South routes very lacking.
Public Transit in Peel was great, as long you weren't going down Main St/Hurontario.
I was recently on a bus that went from the Queensway & Confederation to Sherway Gardens. Whoever designed that route had apparently never heard of a straight line! 🙂
@@James_Knott There was actually a Queensway Express route years ago that stayed on Queensway; but it got axed due to low ridership.
I don't get fixation on light rail. Why not trolley bus? Much more efficient imho.
They used to be used in Toronto, but were removed years ago.
I don’t ever experience a 40 mins bus route. Use to live along 88 Bathurst each bus is 15-20 mins or 25 mins
Now I live close to Jane 20 that every like 9 mins per bus if you miss one. Viva blue is infrequent but it comes every 15 mins due to the length of the route and the route is split into to one ends in Richmond hill and one go up to Newmarket that is why viva blue longer.
Keep in mind the GTA is the number four largest urban area in North America.
Larger than the second tier American cities. Places like Houston and Atlanta
and Miami and San Francisco and Seattle. Also, it is all on a single land mass.
No ocean or lake or river crossings to make. And transit in Canada leap frogged
over transit in America that wasted time and money on the postwar highway building.
The bizarre thing to me is seeing so many articulated buses. I drive buses in the UK and I've only seen one that was working at an airport
That's because London and the UK have double decker buses.
Think of bendy buses as double deckers with a powered trailer!
If the service was more frequent then I assume normal buses would be fine. But some routes are heavily utilized and buses may still come only every 10-15 mins so they need to pack us all in there lol
London and old UK cities have narrow and short streets. Not really suited for
bending buses. North American "Stroads" as Reese calls them are more
suitable for bending buses. And of course you have to climb stairs.
I don't know of elevators in double deckers. Maybe there are, who knows?!
Yes, the buses are very articulate. 🙂
They need to make a GO train that just goes from areas in York Region directly to areas in the Peel region. GO transit needs to realize not everyone works downtown. So you can't just make all the trains go downtown then connect them. There is so much travel time required when it is set up this way.
You should talk about Jakarta's BRT, it's system is huge and complex
I am a person who will willingly take transit if it is at least feasible. Yes yes, I own a personal vehicle, I just don’t want to drive. But for a transit agency whose sole purpose is to carry passengers, to make even attempting to use the service a massive ordeal, is absolute nonsense. They haven’t even gotten to the phase where we could complain about frequency or trip times, because they still haven’t figured out the necessity of round trip service.
We had routes so underutilized that the drivers started asking why we were running routes in half million dollar motorcoaches, when they could very easily be run in our sedans.
As someone who lives in downtown Toronto and travels to Mississauga for work, the connectivity between the two cities is a complete mess. Travelling most places within Mississauga itself is a pain. There is so much room to improve the route planning and schedules of go trains.
I love your content and peel region
It still amazes me that North American cities still persist with the model where transit agencies only service "the city of..." or "the county of....". I prefer the Australian model where the metropolitan area is treated as one organic city ignoring lines on maps that separate local governments (the exception being Brisbane)
the viva buses are few and far between and even then the buses are basically empty. It would be kind to call the Viva bus lanes a white elephant. The lines are disconnected in many areas and all they've done is increase travel time for cars by at least 50%. The worst traffic in york region is everywhere the viva bus lanes are: highway 7 east (especially between leslie and woodbine), yonge street (as soon as you hit the bus lanes heading north traffic slows to a crawl) and highway 7 west (this is especially true around Jane street). With all the development planned for the highway 7 and jane area I believe this will be the worst intersection in the country. Take the disaster around highway 7 in Markam and now add hundreds of trucks servicing the businesses in the area and the railyards). I recently had the miss fortune of driving on highway 7 west bound and it took me 15 minutes to travel from over the rail yards to Jane street (about 1.1 km).
Metrolinx had the gall to run an ad prior to a movie a went to see recently trying to placate people into thinking that they are improving things in the Toronto area. If Putin really wants to destroy the infrastructure of the Ukraine then I suggest he hire Metrolinx to build a transit line rather than use bombs.
yay finally another (great) video about my home region (peel)
7:35 tis not Richmond Hill GO but Langstaff GO :((
Instead of a dundas BRT in mississauga, I would extend TTC Line 2 on a surface alignment beside Milton GO tracks to UofT mississauga (underground though)
When I started watching | wondered wich Peel and which York? York in England and Peel on the Isle of Man?
HAHAHA!!! The FIRST ones! Like London ONTARIO and Paris ONTARIO!
Yep, and the buses going between England and the Isle of Man tend to get a bit damp in the crossing. 🙂
I think a major part of Brampton transit's success is the huge immigrant and international student population. The seats are usually all occupied And rush hour buses are filled to the brim. But I dont think it retains its users, especially since students and immigrants aim to buy a car as soon as possible, the people who use transit dont have any other option. So maybe its profitable as long as new immigrants keep coming
In Sauga it's faster to ride a bicycle then it is to ride the bus.
I hate the new Kipling bus terminal because they placed it SO FAR away from the actual Kipling subway station. 😡
It's also not very accomodation friendly to injured, disabled, or elderly riders (crutches, wheelchair, walking with a cane or walker, etc.) because it takes so long to walk that distance.
For comparison, the TTC bus terminal is literally just above the Kipling subway platforms.
Wow i cant believe those buses sit parked for most of the day. My city has infrequent service but they are running all day
Yeah, there is nothing more depressing than getting to your bus stop, knowing the bus is on a 42 minute schedule, and watching your bus leave. Problem with frequent service is that it is expensive and the low ridership during off-peak periods doesn't feed the kitty much. The demands on municipalities seems to have no limits but the revenue stream is. Well, I'm from the US, maybe Canada is different. You don't say much about these communities, transit depends on population density while family centered suburbs tend to want that to be fairly low, conflicting needs. Given your climate, any kind of transit station needs a comfortable waiting facility but keeping them less like a private ski lodge is sometimes difficult. Municipalities like to build things, back in the day the private railways built stations that did the job, a waiting room that kept the rain out and a coal stove to keep the chill off with a room for the ticket guy and maybe a rest room, all in a nice wooden box. Amtrak stations either look like a toll station on a turnpike or the half billion dollar palace of Moynihan station in NYC with very little in between.
I am a user of both the Allendale and Kitchener GO trains. I cannot wait to get at least regular hourly service.
Both trains have hourly service, just not to the end of the line
The best thing Toronto could do is have their own version of TFL that controls transit for the entire GTA and creates one big integrated network. Having 3 different regions with 3 different agencies all taking different approaches is totally nonsensical to anyone who isn't local and understands all the local politics. I suppose it's similar to your comments about London's fragmented commuter rail system, but in reverse. For locals it's fine. For anyone else, it seems silly.