Dude im so glad yo gear someone else finally say this. I've been arguing this in comment sections all over the place. A node is a node is a node, and it never depended on anything but the room and the position of the transducers in it.
I’ve always been an advocate of the futility of automated room EQ. It’s nice to hear the thoughts of a like minded person. Often with hi-fi, I believe costly solutions are created to solve minor issues. For every action, there are consequences. You have to weigh up whether the benefits of your actions outweigh the caveats. If I had the time, money and resources, I’d like to take 2 identical rooms. Have a “,professional acoustician”?? treat ome room and leave the other room untreated. Apply automated room EQ to both rooms using multiple solutions, then compare the graphs.
I think Andrew might be referring to my system with correcting the big dip at 60Hz. In any case, after Andrew's calibration my system has been sounding fantastic. Great work! :)
Good stuff. I see the same issues with Dirac where the corrected doesn't match the after measurements with REW. I actually submitted a feature request for them to add a post correction measurement step in the software, we'll see if it happens.
Thank you for making a video about this. I did this experiment myself 5-6 years ago. The interesting part is that, i re-did the test 3 times, and i got wildly different graphs, even thou the measuring mic (umik1 that i used to graph before and after results) didn't move. So i just don't EQ the speakers at all, only the subs and i don it manually.
What is your view on correction EQs like SoundID Sonarworks for headphones? Should they be used with caution because they might affect phase and transients, or is the difference on headphones not significant enough to cause disadvantages?
I've tried minidsp, dirac, Yamaha's ypao, & currently, deqx preMATE. The premate is quite a few steps ahead of the others, but requires more learning & understanding to use beyond the basic automation it can do (if you choose that route). And it does have a 'verify' feature, you can use after room correction. It's a remarkable product!
Thank you for that..and I am so glad someone pointed this out. I couldn't agree more. I ran Dirac Live in my AudioControl Maestro X7 and it made the bass sound very dull and lifeless. I have had the best results with Dirac Live turned off and equalising the dual subs with miniDsp..... now it sounds great...good mains-to-sub integration, a nice looking house curve and have managed to eliminate room rattles by using low pass filters. I think miniDsp is an underutilised platform and too much reliance is placed on automated room correction software. Thank you for the nice video - I have learnt a lot from all your posts...👍👍
I liken trying to raise a bass dip/null to throwing light into a black hole. You can throw a sun at a black hole and it’ll just swallow it up. In audio, you lower peaks to shrink the delta between peaks and dips. That’s why JL’s fathom subwoofers have 18 possible filters and a kajillion watt amplifier: if you’re lowering up to 18 different peaks to get closer to dips, you need amplifier headroom to make up the lost gain. Most room correction programs these days are doing a version of this, so it’s not new to audio companies. It’s just consumers who don’t fully understand what’s happening with these programs.
In fairness it took a >10 dB dip to about 5 dB after ARC. The post correction graphs look like high ratio smoothing. But you do make a great point and learned something that you need to do much more than rely on basic auto-eq. Get the the positioning down and use 4 subs and also bass traps at the problem frequencies.
Depends how you look at it. It reduced the peaks but in reality did not “increase” . But yes your point is effectively correct. The next issue I have is the actual measurement which I am digging into because I am seeing different results with my own calibrated test gear vs the results by this system which is also interesting.
That is how it really is multiple subs is beneficial in even Bass seat to seat an addressing nulls and THE BASS IMPACT in getting the CINEMA EXPERIENCE...
I've just done a reset on my Yammy avr, and I haven't redone my room cal / correction, and I believe it now sounds better! Processing = faults, so for now I'm just going to leave it...
Your speakers need to be in the right position for listening so yes moving them often is not an option (unlike subs) so this is either that nature of your speakers or the impact of room acoustics but with just this to go on its impossible to say
Ok I’m a bit confused here. You cannot eq out a modal dip so that process will work for peaks but if you do that between dirac and rew you are potentially stealing q lot of energy from the system. You are far better off balancing subs and changing sub and seat positions with rew first then running dirac and then re measuring..
Andrew, In my opinion Auto EQ/Room correction - a gimmick at best. It's there just to appease the average AVR owner. Before I learned the difference I was thinking I had done the right thing by running the Auto EQ and calling it good and done. Now that I know more tuning can and should be done, I have been pulling my hair out trying make my low budget system the best it can be. REW (Thanks John!) is a huge help when someone learns how to use it properly. It's quite a task to learn and I have only scratched the surface of it. But, with the level of AVR that I own there is only crossovers and distances that can be adjusted when the speaker/sub woofer placement is done, then adjust the crossovers again. Maybe someday, if I'm a really good boy I will be allowed to own a processor worthy of a "professional" tuning. Wishing you and yours all the very best, Kevin
sorry its so late... I wouldn't call it a gimmick it can be useful but really only after all else is as best as it can be. But even then it needs to be verified.
@@HomeTheatreEngineering Yes sir. Auto Room Correction/Auto EQ can be helpful as a first run and, of course, it's all that can be done in the average AVR. Except for distance and crossover settings. Since using REW to confirm and adjust my old Onkyo 636 takes me several hours, I have a ton of respect for professionals like yourself that installs and tunes units like Trinnov. Your an AV Hero! I hope you have great day, Kevin
Yes and ? I think you may have misunderstood. We do know about REW and MiniDSP but thats not the topic of this video. This is info for those maybe not using tools like REW and MiniDSP but relying too much perhaps on auto room equipment
So easy - when YOU explain it. Cheers Andrew.
Dude im so glad yo gear someone else finally say this. I've been arguing this in comment sections all over the place. A node is a node is a node, and it never depended on anything but the room and the position of the transducers in it.
Thank you. See, now there are 2 of us :-)
I’ve always been an advocate of the futility of automated room EQ. It’s nice to hear the thoughts of a like minded person.
Often with hi-fi, I believe costly solutions are created to solve minor issues. For every action, there are consequences. You have to weigh up whether the benefits of your actions outweigh the caveats.
If I had the time, money and resources, I’d like to take 2 identical rooms. Have a “,professional acoustician”?? treat ome room and leave the other room untreated. Apply automated room EQ to both rooms using multiple solutions, then compare the graphs.
I think Andrew might be referring to my system with correcting the big dip at 60Hz. In any case, after Andrew's calibration my system has been sounding fantastic. Great work! :)
sorry about the late reply ...could be :-)
Good stuff. I see the same issues with Dirac where the corrected doesn't match the after measurements with REW. I actually submitted a feature request for them to add a post correction measurement step in the software, we'll see if it happens.
Andrew is 100% CORRECT!
Thank you for making a video about this. I did this experiment myself 5-6 years ago.
The interesting part is that, i re-did the test 3 times, and i got wildly different graphs, even thou the measuring mic (umik1 that i used to graph before and after results) didn't move.
So i just don't EQ the speakers at all, only the subs and i don it manually.
Thanks for sharing!
What is your view on correction EQs like SoundID Sonarworks for headphones? Should they be used with caution because they might affect phase and transients, or is the difference on headphones not significant enough to cause disadvantages?
You’re the best! Agreed on this.
I've tried minidsp, dirac, Yamaha's ypao, & currently, deqx preMATE. The premate is quite a few steps ahead of the others, but requires more learning & understanding to use beyond the basic automation it can do (if you choose that route). And it does have a 'verify' feature, you can use after room correction. It's a remarkable product!
Thanks for that will take a look
Thank you for that..and I am so glad someone pointed this out. I couldn't agree more. I ran Dirac Live in my AudioControl Maestro X7 and it made the bass sound very dull and lifeless. I have had the best results with Dirac Live turned off and equalising the dual subs with miniDsp..... now it sounds great...good mains-to-sub integration, a nice looking house curve and have managed to eliminate room rattles by using low pass filters. I think miniDsp is an underutilised platform and too much reliance is placed on automated room correction software.
Thank you for the nice video - I have learnt a lot from all your posts...👍👍
You are most welcome thank you too!
I liken trying to raise a bass dip/null to throwing light into a black hole. You can throw a sun at a black hole and it’ll just swallow it up. In audio, you lower peaks to shrink the delta between peaks and dips. That’s why JL’s fathom subwoofers have 18 possible filters and a kajillion watt amplifier: if you’re lowering up to 18 different peaks to get closer to dips, you need amplifier headroom to make up the lost gain. Most room correction programs these days are doing a version of this, so it’s not new to audio companies. It’s just consumers who don’t fully understand what’s happening with these programs.
In fairness it took a >10 dB dip to about 5 dB after ARC. The post correction graphs look like high ratio smoothing. But you do make a great point and learned something that you need to do much more than rely on basic auto-eq. Get the the positioning down and use 4 subs and also bass traps at the problem frequencies.
Depends how you look at it. It reduced the peaks but in reality did not “increase” . But yes your point is effectively correct. The next issue I have is the actual measurement which I am digging into because I am seeing different results with my own calibrated test gear vs the results by this system which is also interesting.
That is how it really is multiple subs is beneficial in even Bass seat to seat an addressing nulls and THE BASS IMPACT in getting the CINEMA EXPERIENCE...
Thank you!
The dip is called a null or cancellation. 1st Harmonic Null = 50%.
Yes it is actually more correctly a Node but this is a simplistic explanation.
I've just done a reset on my Yammy avr, and I haven't redone my room cal / correction, and I believe it now sounds better! Processing = faults, so for now I'm just going to leave it...
I use minidsp 2x4hd for manual eq from 20-80hz, but my response is bad from 80-500hz what can I do I don’t understand, I can’t move my speakers.
Your speakers need to be in the right position for listening so yes moving them often is not an option (unlike subs) so this is either that nature of your speakers or the impact of room acoustics but with just this to go on its impossible to say
I run Dirac first, apply it, then run REW and add a filter over the top as needed.
Ok I’m a bit confused here. You cannot eq out a modal dip so that process will work for peaks but if you do that between dirac and rew you are potentially stealing q lot of energy from the system. You are far better off balancing subs and changing sub and seat positions with rew first then running dirac and then re measuring..
yeah I learned that the hard way :D not Eq filter can cure dips due to room modes, live with it :D
Dont live with it, just move subs or seats
Can you help me ?
Andrew, In my opinion Auto EQ/Room correction - a gimmick at best. It's there just to appease the average AVR owner. Before I learned the difference I was thinking I had done the right thing by running the Auto EQ and calling it good and done. Now that I know more tuning can and should be done, I have been pulling my hair out trying make my low budget system the best it can be. REW (Thanks John!) is a huge help when someone learns how to use it properly. It's quite a task to learn and I have only scratched the surface of it. But, with the level of AVR that I own there is only crossovers and distances that can be adjusted when the speaker/sub woofer placement is done, then adjust the crossovers again. Maybe someday, if I'm a really good boy I will be allowed to own a processor worthy of a "professional" tuning.
Wishing you and yours all the very best, Kevin
sorry its so late... I wouldn't call it a gimmick it can be useful but really only after all else is as best as it can be. But even then it needs to be verified.
@@HomeTheatreEngineering Yes sir. Auto Room Correction/Auto EQ can be helpful as a first run and, of course, it's all that can be done in the average AVR. Except for distance and crossover settings. Since using REW to confirm and adjust my old Onkyo 636 takes me several hours, I have a ton of respect for professionals like yourself that installs and tunes units like Trinnov. Your an AV Hero! I hope you have great day, Kevin
REW
MiniDSP
Yes and ? I think you may have misunderstood. We do know about REW and MiniDSP but thats not the topic of this video. This is info for those maybe not using tools like REW and MiniDSP but relying too much perhaps on auto room equipment