The 'Lost' River Neckinger - Lost Rivers of London (4K)
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- The 'Lost' River Neckinger - Lost Rivers of London - walk through Elephant and Castle, Borough and Bermondsey to the Thames
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A walk tracing the course of The River Neckinger, one of the Lost Rivers of London. The river rises on St George's Fields, now the park around the Imperial War Museum. From here it follows Brook Drive to Elephant and Castle. We walk along Newington Causeway to Borough High Street and pick up the echoes of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales which references this spot at the start of the pilgrimage. Our walk then follows the course of the river along Long Lane, past the Kipling Estate and the end of Bermondsey Street. Bermondsey Square sits on the site of Bermondsey Abbey, once one of the most important ecclesiastical institutions in Europe. The river is said to flow along Abbey Street which was once navigable as far as the Abbey. We follow the Neckinger across Druid Street and Jamaica Road to an area that was once known as Jacob's Island. Mill Street takes us to St Saviour's Wharf where the Neckinger makes its confluence with the Thames.
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I accompanied my dad throughout the 80s and 90s as an antique market trader at Bermondsey Square (where some ancient rule meant you could sell anything, stolen or otherwise, legally, under cover of darkness!) - which began at 2am and ended at midday, each Friday. The one thing I can't find a reference to anywhere, including the online archive of plague pits is that the square open area that remains in the middle had a roundabout in the middle of it covered in grass, with a metal fence and hedges around it and a small plaque saying it was a plague pit. I've assumed it's been 'buried' (pun intended) because properties don't market quite so well when they overlook a plague pit! Does anyone recall seeing the same sign in the middle of the square which was paved over around 2010?
There was a rumour that trafalgar square and sloane square are not built upon because bubonic plaque spores from pit would be exposed.
I worked on Bermondsey Adventure playground from 1978 until 1984. It was a fabulous community in spite of being economically wrecked by the closure of the docks at Rotherhithe just down the road, the death of "the print" in Fleet Street. Eight families were still living in post-war emergency prefab asbestos buildings. The lovely Rising Sun pub was run by Joyce Richardson who had been married to one of the Richardson gang folks. It was a superb pub - tons of stories from there that there's no room on here for!
once more, i say "and so to bed"! comforted by the efforts made in your walks, and the information they provide. my dear fellow, i must stress how terrific these are in buffering my mental health, as i am certain they provide the same harbour for others. peace and love from canada, john.
Excellent and enlightening video. As a ‘Norf’ Londoner growing up in the 60’s & 70’s we very rarely ventured over the river. A few of us stumbled across St Saviours Dock in the mid to late 70’s when the weather put paid to our planned visit to ‘Skate City’ on the other side of Tower Bridge. We messed about in the then abandoned warehouses as kids do. Hard to believe they are now luxury apartments. If you can track down a copy of Derek Jarman’s somewhat bizarre film ‘Jubilee’ shot around the same time, you can see what St Saviours Dock looked like before becoming gentrified.
That cybermen structure at the Elephant and castle is a sculpture commemorating Michael Faraday who invented the electric motor, transformer and generator. It covers up the substation for the underground.
thanks for that info Woden - if anyhing that increases the Dr Who vibes of the structure
How very "farty" not to have anything making that clear to the general passer-by
Also the rumor that Richard D. James (aka Aphex Twin) lived inside the old substation beneath the sculpture for a period. Obvious nonsense, but the rumor held sway for a suprisingly long time in electronic music circles.
@@gerard_carson_ He lived right by there in an old bank on newington way just by the bridge, possibly where the gasmask posters are at 13 mins
It's also a Grade II listed structure if I remember correctly. Now the roundabout has been removed it's great to be able to get up close to it.
Hello John. Very evocative walk. I lived just off Lambeth Walk in the early 90s and walked a lot in the area. Some of the back roads around there always reminded me of another time, pre -war for some reason. I love the names of of London’s lost rivers. The Cock and Pye Ditch for example. They make you wonder why they are so named and by whom. Keep up the good work mate! Jason.
That's great around Lambeth Walk Jason - used to loop into my lunchtime strolls when I worked in Kennington. You're right about the names - often they had various names, I forgot to mention that parts of the Neckinger went by different names as well
@@JohnRogersWalks so you old say that both of us have actually done the Lambeth Walk haha (rubbish joke). That song always used to pop in my head any time I read the street sign, or someone mentioned it. It was once the “West End” for working people around there wasn’t it. Hard to imagine how it used to look when you see the 60s brutalist architecture there now.
Wow your popularity is growing! I had no idea the Imperial War museum was once Bedlam...I work in social housing & it’s fascinating to see how much community still exists in many areas. I feel for those Haygate tenants. Decanting is usually temporary: someone might be decanted to a hotel while a flood is dealt with, for example. Sadly in your scenario, it’s more likely that the tenants have been re-homed, under homeless legislation they may have been in temporary accommodation while permanent solutions were found. I love the way you promote books & reading too.
Ahh .... so that’s the river Neckinger that runs into the Thames, I was there just 2 weeks ago, just love that stretch of the river!
Cheers Nigel
Thank you John. I watched with subtitles so it was the river Neck Injury for me!
Turns out the subtitles were right all along. Shouldn’t comment until I’ve watched the whole thing
That’s brilliant thanks for letting me know
Thrilling. Beormund's Ey! So great how the deeper stories you uncover give the present moment a sublime magic.
as someone else said these are episodes I always look forward to watching. As one of the thousands not watching terrestial TV anymore, these are as good, nay better , than anything I would pay a licence fee for.
that's very kind of you Julie
Wow. I was at St Saviour’s dock the day this was posted and discovered Neckinger the same day! Madness!
I regard your so-called "mistakes" as actually fortuitous enlightenment. I learn so much from your rambles. Carry on John.
Thanks Stephen
Often you 'remind me' and often you 'surprise me'. I know little of this part of London so this was an enjoyable revelation.
Hi John, I don't usually comment on RUclips videos, but I had to make an exception in this case. I used to live on Brook Drive, from ages 0 to 11, late 70's early 80's. I went to nursery around the back of the war museum, and my primary was just across the road. I learned to ride my bike in the tennis courts in the park. I have so many fond memories of that area. My parents met while working at All Saints Hospital on Austral Street, which is now an annex for the war museum. We always suspected that a river must run beneath, or close by, the street. In fact, the tube line is not far below and we could hear it rumble through the house. I've not been back in a while, but I remember when the old Lambeth hospital (previously the work house) was still there, the weird old wooden houses, the London Park Hotel. Walcot Stores was owned by Mr & Mrs Patel and was featured in the old Crays film! My dad used to go to the Eagles pub with his brothers. The park was always called Bedlam, and we never knew why. Much later in life I found out about Bethlehem hospital and it all made sense. I went to the London College of Printing for uni. The cybermen building is in fact the Michael Faraday memorial (he was a local lad) that's also some sort of tube infrastructure. I cannot thank you enough for this video and for bridging back such lovely memories! Keep it up, I'll be sure to check out the other videos about Kennington!
What a great video, really informative! I walk that area regularly at work and had no idea about this underground river, although I have often wondered about that sign that just says ‘Neckinger’. Nice conclusion as well, I always assumed that dock was nothing more than just a dock...
Great walk ; those evening shots are the end were really magical ! 🌟
Just found this one. Another lovely snapshot of London, and as always, sends me scurrying off looking on secondhand book websites… thank you
Another fascinating explore of London which you really bring alive
thanks Shaun
A pleasure joining you. Really interesting and in particular I loved the evening captures of the river scene and illuminated buildings under the azure blue sky.
Your enthusiasm is infectious. I’m going to go out tomorrow. Have to use up my annual leave before end of financial year
News for me, my interest is in Geoffrey Chaucer. His tomb in Westminster Abbey was paid for by his friend and fellow poet Richard Brigham, my family's only claim to fame. Keep making these great videos.
What a wonderful link Richard- thanks for sharing, not a bad claim to fame at all
Hello from Australia. I just discovered your channel by accident and am addicted, have subscribed. I went to London in 2008 want to go back one day, my ancestors were from London East End, (mainly Jewish, some not), it is an amazing and beautiful city. I didn't really get to explore the East End at all. This first video I have watched has shown me so much. I love to delve into the history of England, and especially where my ancestors came from. Thank you so much.
Hi Vicki - many thanks for subscribing, hope you enjoy exploring the East End through the videos and discovering the world of your ancestors
I love accompanying you on these walks,thanks.
Thanks Kerry Anne
I used to go to school at St.Olaves GS, now a hotel, just on the south side of Tower Bridge. We used to be taken on 'geography' walking outings around nearby Bermondsey, The smells of the industries were very memorable. The Sarson's factory, the tanneries, the Courage brewery - all different, all amazing to a young boy, even if the smells were not as pleasant as they might have been.
Thanks for another entertaining walk John , brilliant commentary as always , as a northerner you open up the streets of London and educate us about the hidden London, 👍
that's wonderful to hear Allen thanks very much
It is kind of sad how many rivers have been lost, either culvert or ending up as part of the sewer system
You may already be aware of Martin Zero who river hunts around Manchester - great work - Stay safe
Love your videos, John, and many thanks for all the wonderful walks. I beleive that as Jamaica Road approaches Borough it becomes Tooley Street, (where you were filming), and that Tooley Steet is a corruption of St Olaf Street. St Olaf's church is nearby. Olaf of course was the Scandanavian cheiftan who helped London resist one of many Dane invasions by roping a number of rowed vessels to London Bridge and pulling it down, thus preventing access to the city from the unguarded south. Thanks again, and see you on your next walk,...wherever that may be.
great bit of info Mark - thanks for that, I'd passed St Olaf's a number of times in the past and never made that connection to an important bit of London history
Wow. This was a literal walk down memory lane for me. I grew up on The Arnold Estate on Jamaica Road, played on the Neckinger Estate and roamed much of the area shown. We still had the spice warehouses at Dockhead at the time, bomb sites on the river front. What I didn't know at the time was the rich history of the area, that I played on what was once a literal Island. Just shared your video with my siblings. Thank you and you've got a subscribe from me
John always lovely and educational from you. Best wishes for 2021 to yourself and family.
Thanks Michael
Another lovely reminder of the mysteries of london - thank you!
my pleasure Timothy glad you enjoyed it
Great walk John. What I love about your recent walks is how by ending your walks at twilight and later you’ve captured the atmosphere of the city in Autumn/winter.
Thanks Dj, yes I do like the atmosphere of a winter twilight ending of a river walk
Rivetting river walk, very much appreciated, John. Extremely impressive and informative. Should be on terrestrial TV!
Lovely video. Great story telling.
Fascinating. Thank you so much.
thanks for watching Benedict
Fascinating... Like a time travelling Sherlock Holmes venturing through the block universe of London.
I love that description Monkey Trousers
Another great video John, hope you rewarded yourself with a few Beers at the end.....liked the part where a resident spoke about a divide, the rich the poor,.....that is London, a collection of Manors, the rich v the poor, but the Poor always more streetwise. Cheers John.
I loved going to the museum as a kid when I visited my dad up there
Me to friend
and me! and I never knew that building was once a Hospital.
@@julieblackstock8650 same here haha
interesting series, thank you for adding in the maps and captions
Wow, such an amazing interesting video! I've struggled to find out real meaty information on London's lost rivers, surprising how a bit of human geography can completely erase even the most furvent landmarks.
Thankyou for making this video, I'll subscribe to see more!
Another great walk. So glad to see the river at the end of the walk.
Thanks again John
thanks James - that was a great moment reaching the Thames
Very interesting video John. Terrible how the local council and the developers have treated the council tenants of the Elephant & Castle-symptomatic of modern business practice. Bermondsey looks fascinating, all I knew about it was that Tommy Steele was born there.
I absolutely love your videos!
thanks for that Alison
Yeah, you know Rivers are extremely powerful! I once fished a sea river in my boat on the Ribble in Lancashire....the power of water from the hills.
Another interesting walk.building up to the confulance at the old father himself..
Got recommended this. Not disappointed! Very informative
Thanks Chris - great to hear
Absolutely engrossing watch. Although I hate the new towering flats all over London, at the same time would love to live in London because of the amazing museums, architecture and history on your doorstep. I used to go to the old London College of Printing. I used to be terrified of the place, vast, echoey, noisy machines, creepiness. The tunnels to get there under the roads were an experience too.
I recently discovered your videos, what a joy!! Lived & worked around the city & the east end for 30 years, but after the referendum I figured it was best to go back home. So thank you for sharing these walks, takes me right back. Also, in regards to this video about the river Neckinger, there's a river in Switzerland called Necker & a river in southern Germany caller Neckar. Both names have etymological roots in the celtic language, apparently "Nic" meant wild & untamed. I wonder if the name of the Neckinger River has the same roots....
Thanks again & all the best from Germany
This is one of the most interesting documentaries I have ever watched. Thank you.
When you walked past the Inner London Court on Newington Causeway you crossed Harper Road on your right. This was once called Horsemonger Lane and a short detour would have taken you to Newington Gardens which was the site of the gaol where Dickens saw the hanging of Frederick and Maria Manning. Dickens based Hortense in Bleak House on Maria Manning. Also, Mrs Chivery's tobacco shop in Little Dorrit was located in Horsemonger Lane. I believe that horse traders were still operating at the Elephant up to the late 1940's.My dad remembered streets where the horse traders lived as being places to avoid due to the violence meted out to strangers! I grew up near the Elephant in the 50s and 60s and dont remember the horse traders but it was still a tough place.
excellent, thank you.
Superb walk John as always. Another good walk is from Greenwich to Tower Bridge along the Thames, with a stop in the Mayflower for an IPA.
As you were walking down Long Lane just before you got to Bermondsey Street you mentioned a tannery you were walking past. It was in fact a furrier. It was called Britz Brothers. The building itself is quite an interesting piece of architecture. If you had stayed south of Jamaica Road you would have come to the Enid where there was a lot of warehouses servicing Alaska Factory on Grange Road. There was some archaeological excavation in the site of Alaska factory during eighties by London Museum in the Barbican. They found tanning pits going back to Roman times.
Thanks for that info John
Don't mention it. I worked for thirteen years in Bermondsey. Lovely place.
Marvellous. A very enjoyable film, going to watch them all now, bravo.
Fantastic video, so much information and knowledge had to watch it over again! Thanks for posting.
Brilliant!
Great video, subbed within the first minute because I can tell I'll enjoy your videos
Great video thanks!
I lived about one minutes walk away from the Imperial War Museum, grew up there and moved away in my late teens. It was only about ten years later that the park that I had grown up knowing as Bedlam Park was in fact Geraldine Mary Harmsworth Park, I'd never heard of it! I understand the museum used to be an asylum and hence it's name used by the locals. btw, please please please don't call shopping centres as shopping malls...!
This is the first time we have watched one of your videos. Loved it. Husband is an ex Royal Engineer, Wife a Calif. native. We live in the lower part of Southern CA., are in lockdown again, and love catching up with anything new or any history about London. We met in London and had our children there. Thank You for the history and insites you are sharing with everyone. Have subscribed and we are looking forward to viewing more. An extra note regarding the comment from Alexanders Maggs, 2 days ago...his post was a very fascinating history.
Thanks so much Thia - glad you enjoyed the video. There are plenty more to come and hope you also find something of interest in my back catalogue. Glad you also looked at the comments- there’s always some really wonderful memories and information
Fantastic! I love this! I love your passion and the history of my old London. Thank you! for this! xxxxx
Many thanks for watching
Thank you for the walk John!
My pleasure Roxy - hope you’re well
What a really interesting video, different to the Manchester version who walks down the rivers.
I'll certainly be checking more of your videos out. Thanks for sharing them.
Love these river walks...
I worked in Bermondsey in the mid 70s at the far eastern end of Crucifix Lane, just South of the railway. I well remember the aroma of the Sarsons factory and the stink of the tannery near
Whites grounds. I'm guessing that the Tooley St. hotel, if it still exists is no longer a doss house. Down the back streets was the 'Leather Exchange Tavern', which sold excellent Fullers beer, our nickname for the pub was 'The Pervert'. Happy days, thanks for the entertaining video.
I love watching your river videos John. Very educational. How about you could walk along side south London Rivers and lost rivers. The falconbrook, Graveney Norbury brook, Effra and The Wandle are great choices. There's a few more I haven't listed. But I would love to see.your future walks xxxxx
Brilliant as always. I do love this area. 👍
Love hearing from John Lynch! I'm one of the 3 ward councillors for London Bridge and West Bermondsey which includes part of Lond Lane, Bermondsey Street, Abbey Street and Jamaica Road. Very proud of our history. Lovely bit of history John. I hope to link this to our ward page soon
Thanks again John.
Cheers Les
Energy balance and the presence of Nagas (water spirits, expressed in sources and streams) are very important in Tibetan place-making, so I imagine, the location of the Tibetan peace garden may have been chosen because of the presence of the Neckinger nearby
What a beautiful.
Pure Magic...
Thanks again John for another engaging walk sheer brilliance
SMILES👍🇬🇧👌
thanks C Gj
thank you once again John.
Another fantastic walk, thank you for this video. Keep well!
thanks Bonj
Thank you so much once again John for the wonderful video. Until now I have never heard of this river. It has been a lovely experience. Bob.
Glad you enjoyed it Bob
Thank you, cheers!
thanks Jim
Really enjoyable walk crammed with so many facts loved the Bermondsey road and Abbey stories. Another Gem John😊👍
Thanks Terry
Superb video once again. Loved the city views towards the end. What great historical documents your videos will be for future generations.
thanks G Phunk
I remember down by Bermondsey street all you could smell was the seasons factory. Surprised you missed the factory at the bottom of tower bridge road what was used in Charlie and the chocolate factory. But Bermondsey streets changed so much I did my work experience in the general iron foundries next to where the white cube is. My first job was the wine merchants that was where the white cube is now. Sad to see lot of the old places gone it’s only Als Cafe and the family who have the corner shop by tanner street left. Used to have such an amazing community in the area everyone knew everyone what old Bermondsey was like used to be loads of little pubs. I remember the Wolfpack when it had sawdust and a few teeth on the floor.
My step dad is from Elephant and Castle whereas we are from East London; it created a friendly competition on who was the most Cockney , , he reckoned enjoying jellied eels made him the winner!
I do think that "The Shard" looks like Orthanc as imagined and drawn by Tolkien. Saruman watching over all...
I usually come here when I come up to visit my sax player over at Waterloo. I have also been to the food market too along with the Shard.
Thanks for the palpable excitement of this one John. A whodunit couldn't have dunit better.
wonderful - thanks Mark, I love these hidden rivers walks
Always enjoy your videos when you're south of the river.
That was excellent low spot the shabby way the Estate folk were treated at the Elephant And Castle , I had a mate that lived there dunno where he’s gone . High spot at the end of the journey looking up
To all the buildings and all those lights in the window how they are lights shinning out from many people’s lives . Thank you John walking vicariously with you xxx
Thanks for coming along Morrigan
Just subscribed,love these kind of historical programmes of London. Keep on walking.
Thanks red mist - new video Sunday evening
Yay looking forward to this good evening
hope you enjoy it Daniel
@@JohnRogersWalks It was great revisiting the area, especially round the Elephant which is sadly going.
Fascinating video John I enjoyed it so much. Thank you.
thanks Christine
always look forward to a new video! always nice to wind down for the evening! good stuff
Hope you enjoy it EES
@@JohnRogersWalks it was fantastic! also noticed the neckinger sign on the st saviours wharf building near the end, which i thought was quite a nice feature
Interesting & informative as ever John. Thank you
great video as usual John
thanks Paul
Another wonderful film, John. As ever there are so many huge events and small details to pick out of this one: 27 million Russian victims of war ... 27,000,000!! almost unbelievable. & @ roughly 14:30 what looks like some lucky devil enjoying the fading light from their balcony as the sun drops down - although it may just be laundry put out to dry. 🙂 Knut's Trench? The history under your feet is almost frightening. And a final detail - what a gorgeous looking bike at the end of Bermondsey St. I've no real idea what it is but it reminds me of the 1970's 'off road' or 'Trials' bikes I lusted after in the early 1970's. Thanks for making this. Cheers 👍🏽
I worked in Bermondey st in the late 70' and with the vineger factory and the leather works, it did smell funny then.
Another great video John. Thank you from Brum again.
cheers Rob
I lived in a squat whilst at college off the Old Kent Road, just down from the Elephant and Castle in the early 90's, plus I worked at the market selling records of a weekend. It wasn't the nicest looking place but it had a lot of character, and characters. Cycling through the Elephant and Castle was certainly an adventure, I'd be scared to death to do it now.
I dread to think how much that squat is worth now...
There are some remains of the Abbey foundations in the floor of the restaurant on the corner of Bermondsey square. Sadly last time I went they had let them get really dirty but you can still vaguely see them through the floor.
Hello John just want to say how much I enjoy your videos. The music is awesome. I cannot travel to London but now I am seeing and learning about it. Very pleasant. Cheers from Shelley in hot, dry New South Wales, Australia.
Thanks so much Shelley - I remember those hot NSW summers well from my Sydney years.
Great walk and film thanks John
Thanks Sam
Xmas eve under Covid19 - but watching this fabulous video took me on an adventure, in the comfort of my own living room, merry xmas!