I think you're right about Britten: it's important that a composer doesn't exclude the possibility of other interpretations. Britten and Decca were at risk of doing precisely that (and Britten disdain for Jon Vickers' _Peter Grimes_ didn't help). I've enjoyed the Bedford Britten recordings, precisely because they are not quite the same as Britten's own. I don't have such a high opinion of HIckox's recordings of the same repertoire, but at least it's being played, recorded and sold! Mackerras's _Beggar's Opera_ is just a delight, and I'm glad it was he, with his consummate musicality, that got to record it: it's a terrific piece.
Loveliest thing in the Copland box is the track of him rehearsing that chamber Appalachian Spring. He's firm, but polite and funny. An absolute delight! Also have a soft spot for his Boston performance coupled with The Tender Land Suite, which I think you like too Dave, from memory.
There are a few composer-conductors who I got to see performing their works live, and I own CDs of the three conducting their music. Aside from Bernstein, who I only saw once and it was just one work, the Overture of Candide, I witnessed Witold Lutoslawski (ca. 1990), Luciano Berio (ca. 2000) and Cristóbal Halffter, the latter on quite a few occasions. Halffter always combined works of his own with well-estabished works by other composers after the intermission. The three of them are in my personal musical pantheon, along with many others. I also saw Karlheinz Stockhausen controlling the electronics in a few performances of his chamber works, back in 1999, and Kryzstof Penderecki, who was a leftie, three or four times. I need to explore Lutoslawski and Penderecki a bit more as far as recordings go.
Works that Stravinsky recorded multiple times over a period of years, even decades, have significant tempo and timing differences, so I'm not sure they're infallible references even for that aspect. Akin to Britten, I think Howard Hanson's recordings of his own music are both references and excellent performances. He also did very well by a whole range of American music by other composers.
Super interesting video. I’ll toss in my own love for Copland’s recording of “Our Town”, which is much slower than most (all?) others and really magnificently balanced, in my opinion. Such a beautiful, if thoroughly unimportant, work!
I doubt there even is a reference recording of the work, but I have always loved Bernstein's recording of Copland's Piano Concerto, with Copland as soloist.
This is easily one of your most informative videos Dave. It certainly was worth every minute, every opinion or judgement you put into it. Even so, I have to admit a certain sentimental weakness for Stravinsky conducting his own works. You did mention in a brief aside concerning the uniform excellence of Charles Mackerras conducting pretty much just about everything. I've been listening to a great deal of Mackerras lately and I've come to the almost impossible conclusion that there wasn't a "Dog" or even a weak link in anything he recorded. Have you listened to any examples to the contrary? If so I'd be most interested. Once again, thank you Dave for all you do for the cause of Classical Music. Take care!
Mackerras indeed was a thoroughly great conductor. Worth noting that he credited another great conductor, Václav Talich, with teaching him the art of leading and communicating with an orchestra.
For what it’s worth, and I do greatly admire Mackerras as a conductor, I thought his “Pirates of Penzance” was surprisingly bad. Cut, poor diction etc etc. I just got rid of it. But that’s the only one I can think of that’s not good, everyone has a bad day.
A very interesting talk - thank you! The Austrian composer Gottfried von Einem never took part in performances of his music. He not even corrected mistakes in tempo or balance, when others performed his music (in one case a very strange performance by Maazel). I asked von Einem, why he never intervened in the rehearsals, and he answered that, in his opinion, the composer finishes his job with the final bar line of a work. He was convinced that all ideas a composer has about a work, he writes into the score; therefore he has nothing more to add in a performance. The only exception to me seems Britten - sometimes. I guess that his recordings of "Lucretia" and the "War Requiem" are unsurpassed, and I think that in "Albert Herring" all have such a good time that this opera got just one other recording as far as I know (Bedford). Bernstein, is for me a strange case: I like him as composer and as conductor (in fact, my first encounter was the CBS-double-disk with his symphonies),, but in my opinion, he was best as conductor, when he conducted the works of other composers and when his own works have been conducted by other conductors. Although I admit, of course, that his own recordings are reference with the exception of "West Side Story", which he tries too hard to make an opera out of it. But I wonder that you did not mention the composer, who conducted his works better than any other conductors. So to say: What about Boulez? (Just joking....)
I had forgotten about Boulez. I saw him perform Le Marteau Sans Maitre and other works in the chamber hall of the National Auditorium in Madrid (seating around 700) back in the 1990s. It was quite a happening for fans of contemporary music.
To my mind, another example of this is Kapustin's own recordings of his piano works (despite other excellent and increasingly many recordings being made by other pianists).
Interesting video as always. I'm curious to know why you didn't mention Rachmaninoff's performances. Of course, Rachmaninoff did not record most of his own works, but the piano concertos he did perform are still excellent. Of course, you may have a different opinion.
Composers performing/conducting their own works is one of my favorite recording subgenres. Would you ever consider the Mahler piano rolls reference recordings? I feel like they are just not talked about enough.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think that there is really only one meaningful takeaway and it’s that the triplet in the trumpet solo should be played evenly (it very often is not). In Mahler’s performance of the Symphony No. 5 Trauermarsch transcription, the rising quarter note triplet in the opening trumpet solo right before the orchestra comes in is played evenly. I think that even though Mahler was playing on piano, the one thing that the piano roll and orchestra have in common is they start off with a solo voice and there’s no doubt in my mind that when he was playing the opening measures on piano, he was hearing a trumpet in his mind.
Thanks, very interesting. But are you saying that Copland is not popular and played often outside the US? I think I've been to at least 10 concerts with Coplands' music and on the Boosey & Hawks performance-list he is the second most performed US-composer at the moment. Next year his Dance Symphony will be performed here, conducted by Barbara Hannigan. Last year she conducted Music For The Theatre here too.
I think Dave's point is that it wasn't true while he was actively composing. When the Copland-led recordings first came out, for example, I was surprised so many were with London orchestras. Also, with the exception of Britten and Pears, I can't quickly think of British performers doing Copland at the time. I stress that I'm talking only about recordings.
@@steveschwartz8944 Copland's Columbia recordings of his own music were made in London, mostly with the LSO, for the same reason so many recordings were made there during the industry's heyday. It was cheaper. His relationship with the LSO began in the late 50s with two Everest recordings and he enjoyed working with British orchestras, who usually treated him well.
Another notable gap in the Britten-conducts-Britten discography is his last opera, Death in Venice; that one was conducted for Decca by Steuart Bedford -- a member of his circle -- with a cast that was probably identical to those that Britten himself would have employed, had he lived long enough to record it
He was alive when the recording was made. He was just to affected by his illness to conduct. The recording was made 1974 and Britten died 1976. Richard Hickox has also recorded the opera for Chandos .
@@ugolomb Yes I would belive so since Peter Pearce and Britten lived together as you know they must have rehearsed together at the piano at home, and probably he was appearent at the recording sessions .
I'm trying to understand how a piece can be "better conducted" than the composer's own version - assuming it's not a mediocre orchestra unable to follow the composer/conductor's instructions. The quality of a performance is usually evaluated largely with regard to how closely the composer's assumed intentions were undestood and followed. I guess "interpreted in a more enjoyable way" is what it should be called.
Unless a composer can conduct well, no matter how good or willing the orchestra is, the performance is likely to be sub-optimal in terms of things like ensemble, range of dynamics expressivity etc.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Makes sense, but that means those recordings are released despite the respective composers not being entirely happy with them. I guess that's where egos and commercial considerations come into play.
I think you're right about Britten: it's important that a composer doesn't exclude the possibility of other interpretations. Britten and Decca were at risk of doing precisely that (and Britten disdain for Jon Vickers' _Peter Grimes_ didn't help). I've enjoyed the Bedford Britten recordings, precisely because they are not quite the same as Britten's own. I don't have such a high opinion of HIckox's recordings of the same repertoire, but at least it's being played, recorded and sold! Mackerras's _Beggar's Opera_ is just a delight, and I'm glad it was he, with his consummate musicality, that got to record it: it's a terrific piece.
Loveliest thing in the Copland box is the track of him rehearsing that chamber Appalachian Spring. He's firm, but polite and funny. An absolute delight! Also have a soft spot for his Boston performance coupled with The Tender Land Suite, which I think you like too Dave, from memory.
Yes, the Boston performances are splendid.
Great lineup. Also wonderful discussion, with many novel points.
What an enlightening survey. Thank you.
There are a few composer-conductors who I got to see performing their works live, and I own CDs of the three conducting their music. Aside from Bernstein, who I only saw once and it was just one work, the Overture of Candide, I witnessed Witold Lutoslawski (ca. 1990), Luciano Berio (ca. 2000) and Cristóbal Halffter, the latter on quite a few occasions. Halffter always combined works of his own with well-estabished works by other composers after the intermission. The three of them are in my personal musical pantheon, along with many others. I also saw Karlheinz Stockhausen controlling the electronics in a few performances of his chamber works, back in 1999, and Kryzstof Penderecki, who was a leftie, three or four times. I need to explore Lutoslawski and Penderecki a bit more as far as recordings go.
Thank you for the talk, Dave.
Works that Stravinsky recorded multiple times over a period of years, even decades, have significant tempo and timing differences, so I'm not sure they're infallible references even for that aspect.
Akin to Britten, I think Howard Hanson's recordings of his own music are both references and excellent performances. He also did very well by a whole range of American music by other composers.
Super interesting video. I’ll toss in my own love for Copland’s recording of “Our Town”, which is much slower than most (all?) others and really magnificently balanced, in my opinion. Such a beautiful, if thoroughly unimportant, work!
'Beautiful, if thoroughly unimportant, works' - I wonder if Dave has considered this as a possible series!
@@davidhowe6905 A fine idea!
I doubt there even is a reference recording of the work, but I have always loved Bernstein's recording of Copland's Piano Concerto, with Copland as soloist.
This is easily one of your most informative videos Dave. It certainly was worth every minute, every opinion or judgement you put into it. Even so, I have to admit a certain sentimental weakness for Stravinsky conducting his own works. You did mention in a brief aside concerning the uniform excellence of Charles Mackerras conducting pretty much just about everything. I've been listening to a great deal of Mackerras lately and I've come to the almost impossible conclusion that there wasn't a "Dog" or even a weak link in anything he recorded. Have you listened to any examples to the contrary? If so I'd be most interested. Once again, thank you Dave for all you do for the cause of Classical Music. Take care!
Mackerras indeed was a thoroughly great conductor. Worth noting that he credited another great conductor, Václav Talich, with teaching him the art of leading and communicating with an orchestra.
I like Stravinsky's recordings too, but my personal preference isn't really the issue here.
For what it’s worth, and I do greatly admire Mackerras as a conductor, I thought his “Pirates of Penzance” was surprisingly bad. Cut, poor diction etc etc. I just got rid of it. But that’s the only one I can think of that’s not good, everyone has a bad day.
A very interesting talk - thank you! The Austrian composer Gottfried von Einem never took part in performances of his music. He not even corrected mistakes in tempo or balance, when others performed his music (in one case a very strange performance by Maazel). I asked von Einem, why he never intervened in the rehearsals, and he answered that, in his opinion, the composer finishes his job with the final bar line of a work. He was convinced that all ideas a composer has about a work, he writes into the score; therefore he has nothing more to add in a performance. The only exception to me seems Britten - sometimes. I guess that his recordings of "Lucretia" and the "War Requiem" are unsurpassed, and I think that in "Albert Herring" all have such a good time that this opera got just one other recording as far as I know (Bedford).
Bernstein, is for me a strange case: I like him as composer and as conductor (in fact, my first encounter was the CBS-double-disk with his symphonies),, but in my opinion, he was best as conductor, when he conducted the works of other composers and when his own works have been conducted by other conductors. Although I admit, of course, that his own recordings are reference with the exception of "West Side Story", which he tries too hard to make an opera out of it.
But I wonder that you did not mention the composer, who conducted his works better than any other conductors. So to say: What about Boulez? (Just joking....)
I had forgotten about Boulez. I saw him perform Le Marteau Sans Maitre and other works in the chamber hall of the National Auditorium in Madrid (seating around 700) back in the 1990s. It was quite a happening for fans of contemporary music.
That was fun. It’s funny how I have yearning for composers conducting their own works even they are acknowledged not to be the best.
To my mind, another example of this is Kapustin's own recordings of his piano works (despite other excellent and increasingly many recordings being made by other pianists).
Copland's performance of The Red Pony Suite is terrific in my humble opinion, and I don't believe Bernstein ever recorded it.
No, but Slatkin's is much better.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've never heard Slatkin's, I'll have to check that out on RUclips.
Villa-Lobos has a very interesting box by EMI - a must buy for his fans.
Except it's no longer EMI, it's Warner, and most of the stuff in it has by now been recorded in better sonics.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was thinking about the performance not the sound. And I worked for EMI Classics not Warner :)
Performances aren't that great either. They are OK and served their purpose for a while, but the French orchestra is mediocre.
Valuable talk; thinking the reference recording aspect - with its own requirements - removed Elgar and Richard Strauss from this discussion.
I'd be very interested to learn your views on Bartok as performer of his own music.
Interesting video as always. I'm curious to know why you didn't mention Rachmaninoff's performances. Of course, Rachmaninoff did not record most of his own works, but the piano concertos he did perform are still excellent. Of course, you may have a different opinion.
No. I picked the five examples I wanted to discuss. That's all.
Composers performing/conducting their own works is one of my favorite recording subgenres. Would you ever consider the Mahler piano rolls reference recordings? I feel like they are just not talked about enough.
I think they're pretty much irrelevant, sorry to say.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think that there is really only one meaningful takeaway and it’s that the triplet in the trumpet solo should be played evenly (it very often is not). In Mahler’s performance of the Symphony No. 5 Trauermarsch transcription, the rising quarter note triplet in the opening trumpet solo right before the orchestra comes in is played evenly. I think that even though Mahler was playing on piano, the one thing that the piano roll and orchestra have in common is they start off with a solo voice and there’s no doubt in my mind that when he was playing the opening measures on piano, he was hearing a trumpet in his mind.
Thanks, very interesting. But are you saying that Copland is not popular and played often outside the US? I think I've been to at least 10 concerts with Coplands' music and on the Boosey & Hawks performance-list he is the second most performed US-composer at the moment. Next year his Dance Symphony will be performed here, conducted by Barbara Hannigan. Last year she conducted Music For The Theatre here too.
I think Dave's point is that it wasn't true while he was actively composing. When the Copland-led recordings first came out, for example, I was surprised so many were with London orchestras.
Also, with the exception of Britten and Pears, I can't quickly think of British performers doing Copland at the time. I stress that I'm talking only about recordings.
Yes, thanks. That was the point.
@@steveschwartz8944 Copland's Columbia recordings of his own music were made in London, mostly with the LSO, for the same reason so many recordings were made there during the industry's heyday. It was cheaper. His relationship with the LSO began in the late 50s with two Everest recordings and he enjoyed working with British orchestras, who usually treated him well.
Finster is conducting!! Dave, did you ever conduct much?
No.
Is there any evidence to support the rumors some of the recordings released as being conducted by Stravinsky were actually conducted by Craft?
Another notable gap in the Britten-conducts-Britten discography is his last opera, Death in Venice; that one was conducted for Decca by Steuart Bedford -- a member of his circle -- with a cast that was probably identical to those that Britten himself would have employed, had he lived long enough to record it
He was alive when the recording was made. He was just to affected by his illness to conduct. The recording was made 1974 and Britten died 1976.
Richard Hickox has also recorded the opera for Chandos .
@@fred6904
Thanks for the correction. Do you know if he was involved in the recording -- e.g., consulting Bedford?
@@ugolomb Yes I would belive so since Peter Pearce and Britten lived together as you know they must have rehearsed together at the piano at home, and probably he was appearent at the recording sessions .
I'm trying to understand how a piece can be "better conducted" than the composer's own version - assuming it's not a mediocre orchestra unable to follow the composer/conductor's instructions. The quality of a performance is usually evaluated largely with regard to how closely the composer's assumed intentions were undestood and followed. I guess "interpreted in a more enjoyable way" is what it should be called.
Unless a composer can conduct well, no matter how good or willing the orchestra is, the performance is likely to be sub-optimal in terms of things like ensemble, range of dynamics expressivity etc.
Exactly. Conducting is a skill. If a composer lacks that skill, it won't matter what he wrote or intended. The result will be mediocre or worse.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Makes sense, but that means those recordings are released despite the respective composers not being entirely happy with them. I guess that's where egos and commercial considerations come into play.
I think that Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana is among the worst interpretations of the score.
I have a few CD's of Paul Hindemith conducting his music. All the performances are nice but on the mediocre side.
Definitely.
Elgar recorded a lot of his own music in the electrical era. A lot of it is refreshingly brisk and surprisingly listenable considering its age.