My understanding: Ultimecia is from far in the future where sorceresses get imprisoned/enslaved (which the game tells us) at a young age, when you fight her in the last form you can see a woman hanging upside down and I believe that this is Ultimecia's real body. I believe that her mind got so corrupted from being enslaved for such a long time, she found a way to escape it by mentally going outside of space time. Even though her mind was free again in het space-time Palace she still hungers for revenge, and the only way to execute her plan of destroying the world and becoming a god (and thus freeing her from her imprisonment and taking revenge on Human kind that enslaved her) is to take control over a sorceress in the past. What she doesn't fully realized is that when she takes over Edea she accidentally sets off a chain of events that will lead to her own demise. This is what she realised at the end of the final battle and why we says Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you, she has come to terms with the fact that she can not change what happened to her and this is where her story ends and she finally gets to die and be at peace.
Well she said she also forgot why she is doing things One of the most popular theories we're Squall dies at some point and rinoa becomes ultimecia (this theory was debunked by the development team of FFVIII) However there's still a chance that she lost someone maybe the person was murdered , your theory could play in to it She becomes the lover of a warden ,he frees her but gets killed as traitor ,over time she forgotten him ,but has still the anger and hatred
Yeah basically FF8 borrowed from FF1 but instead of Garland/Chaos having the four fiends use the power of the elemental crystals to send him back to the past before he died in the future, so he can take the power, become chaos and send the fiends forward to crate the loop. Ultimica uses the past sorceresses to basically create the same thing.
This is possible if ultimecia is conscious throughout the process, because she knows what's happening between loops. If this is her plan all along, then kudos to ultimecia!
its possible that ultimecia keeps knowledge of whom her powers pass through which then explains some of the old fan theories about ultimecia being rinoa its just that ultimecia saw rinoas memories so each loop she would essentially learn more and more about squall and his party since each loop would have variations she would see how they react each time / this in turn makes you wonder if at some point she starts giving edea power for more than one reason ~ maybe to test squall since she would know squall will eventually fight edea .... actually that also explains why edea knew where to shield from irvines sniper shot during the assassination mission / it would also explain why she takes seifer as a "knight" if ultimecia has rinoas and by that method edeas memories
I'm fully convinced Ultimecia is the true hero of the main plot...Ultimecia is attempting to SAVE herself from the timeloop of SeeD which only exists to destroy the Sorceress..she tricks squall and everyone into being killed in the future only to force a repetitive loop where squall tells Edea to create Garden and SeeD in the past....if Ultimecia is to ever succeed, a singular timeline where only she exists -is free from harm and able to live her life without fear of being hunted and murdered- will also allow her to be the final sorcerer thus ending the reasoning for a timeline where SeeD exists, where Sorcerers are hunted, and where society lives cohesively with one another....in relation to Squall and the timeline he exists in, he unknowingly forces himself into a timeloop by becoming SeeD and defeating future-ultimecia. It's likely that Ultimecia [allows] herself to be killed by squall in an attempt to initiate the timeloop and transfer her powers to Edea from the past...who will eventually be possessed by her in the future anyway. If the sorceress powers continue to grow, forcing herself to transfer her powers to a witch from the past allows her sorceress powers to grow unaffected by time travel....eventually, Ultimecia will succeed...she has every right to protect herself, as the sorceress powers are not something someone asks for, but rather forced into as the previous sorceress dies and the powers are forcefully given to anyone with magical affinity to contain it....Ultimecia, in conclusion, was forced into becoming a hated woman due to SeeD and knew she would one day be murdered...her motive is to eliminate all these points of suffering by using her magic to create a reality where she won't be murdered, SeeD won't exist, and the sorceress powers will end with her as she will have no one to pass her powers on to... (to support this theory: Squall defeats the version of ultimecia that exists within his future, however Rinoa will eventually pass her sorceress powers on and eventually reach the woman who inevitably becomes Ultimecia. Unless squall is able to discover the identity of the woman who eventually becomes Ultimecia, defeating her future-self only reactivates a timeloop. Squall, in attempt to save himself and rescue the timeline he exists in, unknowingly helps ultimecia. To repeat: ULTIMECIA WAS NEVER EVIL, the world she exists in far into the future forced her into isolation as society knew SeeD existed to destroy her as a sorceress, while she may appear cold on the surface, she sees the past-reality through which she travels to and manipulates Edea from, as a point in time that is RESPONSIBLE for forcing her future self to become helpless and victim to mistreatment for powers she never wanted....she is forced into being hated, given powers she never wanted, and through these circumstances becomes aware that she will, in fact, be murdered....Squall is both halting and aiding ultimecia, both helping and hurting. Until he exists in a timeline where he does not become SeeD (which will not happen) it will be ultimecia who pays the price for it...
@@finalfantasytheory - thank you my friend, I am currently playing through FF8 again and was able to pick up these overlooked plotnotes, especially about the Curse of Hyde which is what gives the sorceresses their powers....Hyne "immortalized" himself by making it that each body he possesses, they [have] to give the powers before that body can die......
From what I understand, this was the case. the 3 Initial Timelines- In the First Timeline... All the characters in the game that we know existed, but not with the same relevance as when we played, in that timeline, Ultimecia was eventually defeated by other characters. *Here I mean that it was NOT defeated by the Seeds, but by another institution for calling it that, Likewise, Ultimecia was not as strong as we knew her in the game either.* And as implied in the ending of the game, Ultimecia went back to the past to find a sorceress to pass on her powers (and essence with her thoughts and purposes). In a Second Timeline, Edea knows what will happen to her in the future after she received Ultimecia's powers and memories she knew it and couldn't avoid it, That's why she, in this timeline, started the Seeds project... *But not as perfected as we knew it in the game*, in which Squall was not involved either. As the years went by Ultimecia began to have more control over Edea Ultimecia's plans were carried out to the point that she (Ultimecia) was "born" in the future where (I guess) she killed Edea to regain her powers.. but this time, Ultimecia was defeated by The Seeds Third time line; Here are the events of FFVIII, if I remember correctly when Ultimecia possessed Edea, She (Ultimecia) remember the Seeds, those who defeated her in a past timeline.. Here there was an essential change compared to the previous timeline. Upon receiving Ultimecia's powers and memories, Edea knew that the project was successful, but not in the way expected Indeed Ultimecia was defeated, but they failed to stop Edea (Like in FFVIII) and the future was already all screwed So this time, she (Edea) perfected the Seed project even more, including the characters we use in the game. and they failed (again) Then everything continues as we already know, Squall and company defeat Ultimecia, at that moment where they were lost in time, Squall finds Edea and tells her about the Seed project that she started... and in the end everything seems that from this point on it will be an endless loop Maybe in a fourth timeline things could have been different Since this time Edea will know that it is not enough to just stop her (kill her), but they would also have to eliminate any existing sorceress at the time (including Rinoa) so that Ultimecia's power cannot reach anyone and is lost forever. Especially the one they would have to eliminate is Ellone because if they don't, in the future Ultimecia will use her ability to send her consciousness to the past (I suppose Ultimecia also learned to send her power) Remember that Ultimecia will always be born in the future. Despite the ending of Final Fantasy 8, Squall and company eliminated an adult Ultimecia who had already regained her powers and also took possession of Ellone, since in the end, Ultimecia returned to the past again and inherited her memories/consciousness, powers, etc. to Edea It's a pain if you think about it... they only have 2 ways to prevent history from repeating itself... eliminate all the sorceresses or eliminate Ultimecia before she is born (if you can call it that)
ORIGINAL CLOUD STRIFE A NORMAL BODY BOY WHO DOESN'T WEILD HEAVY SWORDS AND IS GENETICALLY MODIFIED!!!!. A.K.A USES A DAMN GUN NOT A HUGE SWORD. This was a normal reality service anouncement. Jak 2 has the same point ------------- FIRST TIMELINE "I WILL KILL YOU"(HE SAYS WHILE) ON TABLE GETTING SHOCKED. WHAT WAS FIRST JAK FROM JAK AND DAXTER?????
I'm going to buy that Ultimecia might have created a time loop... but I'm going to put a hard pass on her ultimately winning. Time travel, and especially 'time compression' would have to be insanely costly to do. So, she can set the loop and give the Matron her power, but after expending so much to try to compress time, do the battle (she's ultimately dying from the party as well, which is going to weaken her more) and then using more magic to send her power to the Matron through time (which is in a hell of a spot at the moment, so how knows if that'd be easier or harder), she'd probably only send... well how powerful Edea is, or less so and she grew in power by the time we fight her in VIII. Otherwise it's not a stable loop and something would break and the whole game is pointless, which I've yet to see a Final Fantasy that goes that route.
It’s certainly possible but I’ve always chalked it all up to this being the problem when you bring time into a medium. It puts so many plot holes an variables into play.
yes it does! Time travel always makes plot holes but it also makes for great theories. I think Final Fantasy 8 has the most theories of any of the games and it's due to the odd plot and time travel. Thanks for watching and subscribing!!!
I'm not sure how this would give ultimecia more power when what's happening is a time loop. It could only work if ultimecia existed outside the time loop itself. She gained enough power to allow her to begin the time compression, but was still defeated and travels back to pass her power to edea. The only way she could win this would be to break the loop, and if she breaks it she can't travel back in time to begin the process. It's a paradox
like I said time travel is confusing lol My thoughts on this and feel free to disagree lol is that Ultimecia culminates all of the power she has and then goes back and passes that power onto Edea which follows the cycle to Rinoa - whoever she passes onto - so on and so forth until Ultimecia gets her power. She added power into the time line that wasn't there at first and each time she goes back she adds more power into the sorceress line that wasn't there. Obviously I could be wrong, many commenters made excellent points and I'm glad everyone is having that conversation!
No. It only works if time is LINEAR. If it's a multiverse, then this really doesn't do anything... except for those timelines where her plan works out. Which, if the Multiverse theory works in the case of Ultimecia's Time Compression plan, she's ALREADY won. Then it's likely Ultimecia is the universe itself replaying it's memories through every person who EVER lived, so she can come back to consciousness as a God. The game implies that TIME is linear though, so... yes. By the simple 1,2,3, logic of mathematics and the principles of the sorceress's powers, Ultimecia won. It's only a matter of TIME.
@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561 the marvel multiverse concept wasn't known back when this game came out, at least outside the comics, so its unlikely they used that multiverse shit when they made this. Any story involving time travel has to establish its own rules for it, because they are not all the same
I don't think she's the winner. I think there was something incredibly dark and tragic hinted at during her dialogue at the later part during her final form. She wanted to know everything about the past, present and future. As she gained that knowledge she *also* gained the knowledge of how things were going to end up and that she had made a huge mistake she'd pay for forever. She realized she was going to lose. And she realized she was going to go around and around time forever. In other words, she was begging Squall: "Think... About your childhood..." (Please kill me before I reach her this time!) But Squall, the party and even the player can't understand. This is why Squall appears briefly to witness Ultimecia pass on the curse. Ultimecia used the last of her power to take Squall there on purpose to strike her down. So I interpreted her final line of "Can't... Die... Yet." as her horror at realizing this didn't work. It didn't work all the other times and it won't work now. The Sorceress of time will spend an eternity of doing time in time itself. It is a Jojo villain fate for her!
It's also even darker when you realized she may have killed every other human besides herself in the future tense. The fact that she fails to stop her horrific fate means as she dies so does humanity. Humans have an expiration date and there is nothing that can stop that. It's 'time locked'.
When I beat the game the 2nd time, I get the impression ultimacia won. While squall was lost in the void ultimacia deceived him to think she is rinoah with this forced happy ending so he could be her knight for the rest of his life.
Look, even with FFIX, I still thought that Terra would still assimilate Gaia in the end, and that they woukd have to accept their limited time left. Well, the copy I had at the time couldn't play FMVs so, I was left without the grand ending of Terra becoming the next crystalof Gaia. I still question that ending, and how Zidane even survived that attack of the Iifa Tree roots.
I like this theory! I believe my only counter-argument is that its not stated in the game that the sorceress powers stack with each timeloop, I think the time paradox was only to give context to Ultimecia’s time powers. Also great thumbnail.
It's true that it doesn't indicate the powers stack because the powers can also be lost if the sorceress doesn't find a successor. My assumption comes from the fact that Adel and Edea are so strong. Odine indicates there are no other sorceresses in the world but Rinoa and Adel at the time of Lunatic Pandora. Given how strong Edea was, this tells me the powers stack but that is just my thought. At the same time, you look at the time compressed world where you face off against the many sorceresses and they are all weak except the weird slug looking one. Unfortunately the lore doesn't dig deep enough into it.
@@finalfantasytheory I think the sorceress power do multiply. Although we never had the opportunity to see Edea casting a spell while unpossessed by Ultimecia, we could see how Rinoa struggled to control the immense power. She can cast spells by using 2 options: either through GF like before becoming a sorceress, or by using her new powers via her limit break Angel Wings. While using her wings the player can't control her and she casts spells randomly, as if she does not know what is she doing, but her spells are very powerful. On the other hand, when Edea received Ultimecia's powers, she already was a very skilled sorceress, so she probably had no trouble to adapt to increased powers... while Rinoa was just a noob in being a sorceress.
In Ultimecia's last form, you see her real body hanging from another form. My theory is that the other form is the original essence of Sorceress, Hein. Its such a mysterious entity, named throughout all of the game that it makes no sense to be forgotten. As ULtimecia gather the powers of all the Sorceress she becomes the true vessel of Hein, all its power finally joined in one place in time. So when it is defeated Hein just sends Ultimecia back in time again and again hoping that something will change... Elone may be part of Hein herself, being able to send cousciousness back in time, not being a Sorceress seems strange, it looks like a midpoint failsafe for her to able to control a huge extent of time. Jusy my 2 pennies here lol
Alt theory: Ulty wins because she frees herself from being persecuted and ends the sorceress line. Imagine, she's the last remaining sorceress getting hunted and possibly imprisoned for fear of being "Ultimecia." She does everything in FF8, and then goes back in time to relinquish her powers to Edea. If she does this, that means that in her original timeline, no one else would receive the power of Hein. She is free, and no one else will bear the burden of being a sorceress from her original time on.
An interesting proposition for a Remake sequel would be for Ultimecia to break that cycle and instead enter Squall's time line into another candidate and wreck havok.
This has been my head cannon since 1998 lol. Kefka and Ultamecia I consider the best bosses: Kefka cause he actually dooms the world and Ultimecia because of Time Kompression.
@@finalfantasytheory i think that was more of a localization thing. If memory serves me right, in the original Japanese her "tone" is more masculine than feminine. Tho the localization for FF8 is uniquely weird. 2 that stand out being Squall and Ultimecia. Squall - Jp: is more "introverted and blunt", Eng: "standoff-ish and rude." Ultimecia - Jp: best condenced "mature tomboy", Eng: fucking Russian witch lol I never fully understood him as far as his feelings for rinoa when playing cause he came off as rude in English than reserved and uninterested in Japanese. Its super subtle but enough to change his "realization" after rinoa gets taken away from "I've been a complete ass to her but I love her" in English to "I've pushed someone away who truly shows they care about me" in Japanese...if that makes sense?
@@Fluffykunn it does. You should check out Final Fantasy VIII in a nutshell by Rabtoons, very funny parody of the game and one of the things they mock is Squall suddenly going from hating Rinoa to loving her
It seems to me that this game its scenarios, locations, characters, are fixed and static while you/we the observer/central meaner are engaged in playing its stories. we imbue the game with are own vitality animating and engaging with what is essentially a reflection of ourselves. The themes and outcomes are set. Only when not playing after a cycle ends do the characters, locations and stories become unfixed and in flux with their potentialities returned to them. Is Squall dead in a way yes. Is Rinoa the final sorceress yes and no. When we play the game their characters and relationships are fixed in our mind. When we stop playing the game they return to a state of flux although the outcome remains the same. That they only exist and are animate through the observer within the unending loop of the game. There is no true resolution this is shown clearly in the final frames of the end credits where Squall and Rinoa can never quite Embrace. For this reason Ff8 is perhaps the most alluring and enigmatic of the mainline titles.
This is a very interesting theory; I may be thinking too much into this, but it seems to me if the power was looped from the same source for an increase in power it would be similar to a break in the founding law of thermodynamics, BUT if each loop her powers grew almost like someone gaining experience, adeptness and strength through practice and exercise it would make a tremendous amount of sense to me.
Big thumbs up! I never liked nor believed the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory but this...now this is believable. Great vid. I look forward to hearing more theories.
It is an infinite loop because you forget one thing. Rinioa gets Edea's powers and then Adel's making her stronger than the Ultimecia that casts Time Compression. Every loop Ultimecia gets stronger but so does Rinoa. The only way to break the loop is for Edea to kill Rinoa at the end of disc 1, and that's Edea'a play. History states that Seed beats Ultimicia, it never mentions Rinoa so Ultimecia never has Edea kill her before Rinoa becomes a sorceress.
I always believe the powers of the sorceress remain the same, it didn't multiply, sorceress will always have the same level of magic regardless of how many sorceress they gain powers from. the only reason Ultimacia wanted to go so further into the past was to achieve the time compression loop, why? who knows! but to do that she needed the powers of Elone, I don't think was because she needed more power. that is what i understand. And even if Ultimacia create a loop, that loop will lead to her defeat. At the end she lose because she die, defeated by Seed's.
They were each given shards from the first. So absorbing another's powers would give them more fragments and more powerful. Otherwise they wouldn't state "powerful sorceress," that means there are sorceress's of lesser powerful.
@@airnoiphongsavath3340 power in that case means she was a ruler and not one you could easily defeated, like for example saying Hitler was "powerful dictator" didn't mean he had dictatorship "powers" that stack up, because a dictador at the end is a man like any other but so to maintain their power they make a army to defend themselves. Utlimacia was a sorceress like any other, however, she lived in a floating castle not easily accesible, with many minions inside to protect her and demi bosses, even a omega weapon. So that explains the "power sorceress" statement.
I agree with your theory. I just played the remastered version. I came to the exact same conclusion you did, but I’ve been looking to see if anyone else has. Most videos don’t connect this. In my mind, it was just plain as day throughout the whole game and dialogue.
I find it interesting that people debate whether it is a time *loop* or not, without acknowledging other possibilities; I think it's more like a time *mobius*. A mobius being a single loop with a half twist. When Edea received Ultimecia's powers in the orphanage, everyone (the plot) entered the INSIDE of the loop. When Ultimecia is eventually defeated, this represents the one and only time where you cross that "twist" in the loop. When the party journeys back through the uncompression of time and "witnesses the same event again", it's actually just Squall and co. moving forward on the OUTSIDE of the loop. Squall witnessing the events he experienced as a child is explainable by the fact that time is uncompressing (i.e. the mobius has its twist here). The key to all of this is *you continue to live the rest of your life BEYOND the loop*. We see in the end credits everyone celebrating at Garden. It's like a loop-de-loop in Sonic; you go in, go around, and then go OUT. I came to this conclusion, in part, due to the "point-line-plane" postulate. Watch this video, and then the one on the 5th dimension on the same channel ruclips.net/video/MN4KC_zlW4g/видео.html&pp=ygUbSW1hZ2luaW5nIHRoZSA0dGggZGltZW5zaW9u basically, time is a dimension like any other (spatial), and thus, isn't simply linear. If shaped like a mobius, you can get a plot like this!
The real paradox is to understand how was the story before the loop started... because 'SeeD' would have never existed without Squall going to the past to tell Edea who are 'SeeD'... and if 'SeeD' never existed, Ultimecia and Squall would have never started the loop, so the entire story is a paradox... This means Ultimecia has no really the control of the time to decide to start the loop, but she is herself a victim of the time paradox too...
Time flows like a river and Ultimecia is upstream. I think the idea of seed came from her time as the "last seeds of hope" and maybe in defiance said they have always existed to defy the sorceress and a legendary seed would strike her down. Ultimecia fears death so despite her overwhelming power she wants to stop this threat by ending Seed from the begining. She scours time through her junction machine ellone. She uncovers Seed during Edea's time and in her first shot through time attempts to kill them. Mentions Seed and her knowledge that doesn't exist in the past at that point. She is defeated by someone(not squall and company) She travels back in time to young Edea and passes her power onto her and fades. I think Edea would do the same as before and ask who the seed was and they would explain they were seed from garden before popping out of her time and going back to the future. Then the cycle would repeat but now that the concept of seed has been introduced to the past, the events to the future alter slightly. This would fit as the game suggests this isn't the first time Ultimecia went back as Edea says she took on the powers of an unknown sorceress to prevent the children from becoming a sorcerss.
@@finalfantasytheory I think Squall is a key element for the time loop just as Ultimecia is,. And I agree it's not the 1st time then Ultimecia went back... it could be the 2nd... o maybe the 1000th... it is the same for Laguna's story. Laguna and friends won lots of battles thanks to "fairies"... who are coming from the future! That's is also the meaning of Liberi Fatali -> Sons of destiny. They are all subjected to their destiny. And also Ultimecia is. It's easier for Ultimecia to win if she can change an event that stops the paradox, more easier that extending the paradox to infinite. But she can't stop the paradox becuse she is also subjected to her destiny.
@@FF8FansChannel maybe the 1000th time they fought DAMNNNNN!!!!! what about HYNE too Then 1000 times (strenghtened or weakened)!!!!! Also any hints to Why Squall and crew (just in case a hidden witch to blame) So SPecial that the future people can do nothing to stop things from happening like Death in ChildBirth Power to Timeline (Squall's MOM)
Until Edea gets to powerful and can't be defeated by the party. Which in turn would change the future and make ultimacia not to be born to Inhert these powers. I feel it would only be the future powers sent to the past at its same power level
Well, the time loop is only created because the original Ultimecia became powerful to create time compression in the first place. So it would stand to reason in every subsequent loop she remains the most powerful sorceress. Otherwise the loop is broken. The loop should only be breakable by Ultimecia eventually remaining undefeated.
Ultimecia’s problem was never a lack of power. She was always powerful enough to cast time compression and she did so. Her problem was she did not possess Ellone’s power. Ellone was the ultimate trump card to Ultimecia. If even it existed, power stacking doesn’t change that.
So, if she knows, don't you think she would have known exactly who would slay her before hand, in each loop. Also, it's very unique how they front Edea as the antagonist, until Disc Three. I really like when they bring in plot twists like this, which also explains this has been a thing way before the plot we witness even happens. Adel is just very horrifically terrifying I never paid attention as to why they had no communications until the whole space station incident and the lunar Cry. Edit: Also, it looks like Ultimecia is reaching in for a hug in the thumbnail, hahaha!😂😂😂
huh, it does look like she wants a hug. I think it's like a harry potter Voldemort thing. She knows there are "Legendary" Seeds destined to kill her and she essentially causes this in each iteration. This could explain why Edea came up with Seed before you beat the game and went into the past.
Sorry you have so many stupid comments to this video, asking questions that you just answered in the video and bringing up other theories. Your theory rocks
I think you are somewhat right, and maybe its also a bit of a draw. I was thinking you could also see it that she simply has achieved her goal to rule time when you go to her castle this is already in another time dimension or something, couldnt it simply be that this is what she is ruling. And because of the seed getting there she simply resets the loop because she will loose to the seed. But if she compresses time she keeps the loop going that causes squall to start the whole loop again causing her to be ruler of her own dimension the whole game until the point you reach her.
I know it's confusing because magic and time travel is involved but the thing is Time Compression is why she's dead and why the Sorceress Power ends with Rinoa and Ultimecia. If it wasn't for the time loop of Ultimecia handing the power to Ednea to Rinoa which ends with Ultimecia again then we'd never get rid of her. It's the act of her giving the power to the past that allows us to escape Ultimecias Wraith. Because if she has no future successor then she can no longer exist. If she gave anyone her power at her own time period she can live on in a different way. But she chose to be the ultimate form of selfish desire and make the entire reality bend to her rather than build a legacy or memory. At the end of the game it's implied no one remembers Ultimecia thus making her entire existence feel invalidated as a sign of disrespect for all the harm she has caused. Meanwhile Squall and Rinoa live one to forge their own memories with all pain and trauma forgotten. Amazing story. Just to make sure you understand by having Ultimecia give the power into the past rather than the future she makes it so Sorceress's no longer exist past her own time period therefore she cannot exist past the point she was present. Because remember what Ednea said when Ultimecia appeared? "A Sorceresses cannot truly die until they pass on their power" and by having her do it in a timeloop with Ednea > Rinoa > Ultimecia > Ednea >>> Ultimecia we wouldn't be free of the Sorceress. It had to be Ednea if they wanted to break free. It was fate and luck that Squall led her there. If she picked any other person she would win but since she specifically picked Ednea she killed the Sorceress Power forever. That's kind why it was Lagunas plan. It's both his and her own plan but he was smarter by making her own plans backfire. Laguna predicted this. How? Not clear. It's vaguely implied thanks to Sqaull looking into the Past Laguna was able to see into the Future. That's why when they meet they're not really surprised.
But if she gives all that power to Edea, eventually Edea will be too powerful for a weaker Ultimecia to possess from the future. It's more likely shes in a prison repeating the same moments throughout all of time never ending.
Also definitely possible. That would still somewhat make her the winner in that she can still potentially break the loop if she realizes she is stuck in one.
Dying Ultimecia passes her powers -----> Edea Edea controlled by Ultimecia's consciousness -----> defeated by Squall Edea passes her powers -----> Rinoa Rinoa controlled by Ultimecia's consciousness ------> awakens Adel Adel absorbs Rinoa's powers -----> defeated by Squall Ultimecia made time compression ------> defeated by Squall Defeated Ultimecia passes her powers ------> Edea And loop goes on and on..
In fairness, 8 was the pre voice acting age which meant we were left to figure it out for ourselves. Dissaddia for the PSP pronounced Ultimecia like Ulta-me-sha. I personally always thought it more like Ulta-mesha
i always pronounced Edea with the "a" silent which would make it sound more like "Ead" which is like eat but with a "d" at the end or like how the word "concede" is pronounced but without the c o n c E D E lol but yea this was before we had voice actors so it was up to us to pronounce it how we read those words 😂 to me Chocobos will always be pronounced like Cocoa Bow 's
Squenix should remake FF8 for more mature audiences and canonize the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, make 2 parts where the 1st part explains the time loop and in the 2nd part it's up to the player to become part of the loop and live in a single infinite moment with Rinoa, or kill her and save the world, with the option of getting the happy ending after a second playthrough. If they do it right and plan out the story to match the time loop, it wouldn't feel repetitive, kind of like Netflix's Dark.
They should go more mature. Like most have people dying anyway, nothing wrong with blood. That's what pissed me off in the 7 Remake. They went weak and did fog or black ooze instead of blood
A big issue with that is that they hate the R=U theory and have outright shot it down in interviews. That those two are supposed to represent the dichotomy of sorceresses and are most definitely not the same person. There is more in common with Halicarnassus from FF5 and Ultimecia than there is between Riona and Ultimecia.
Been years since really played FF8. But if i remember she is "far" into the future. You are assuming that one of the sorceresses that does get the time looped power, does not change the future and Ulimecia may never be born or her life experience has change because of the power consolidation. Example: would any of us be alive if the titanic didn't sink, who extra would be alive. Further back, what if the American revolution never happened, has same question. Any event big or small. Will say she is dying when she transfers her power, so has little to lose anyways.
time travel is confusing lol We can tell from in game dialogue that at the very least, this is the second time Sorceress Ultimecia has been defeated and sent her powers into the past. as Edea tells the party she recieved two different Sorceresses powers. One when she was a child and one when she was watching the children in the orphange.
Oh I just realized why nobody gets it "The Sorceress" and Ultimecia are basically separate entities. That's why they explicitly state the previous Sorceress Wars because it was to show this happened long before Ellone was born. "The Sorceress" has always been evil. As for the true form of this "Sorceress" is greatly unknown. We can only assume Hyne had something to do with it. Which could be Hynes corrupted Identity through all the Guardian Forcesthey used throughout the years thus forgetting their true purpose other than to "Exist". But again I want to really emphasize after she's dead nobody remembers her. Alll thanks to Guardian Forces.
this is so good! That one sentence always bugged me. Did she project herself in squall's childhood at the end of the battle with the help of the ellen junction?
Time was compressed and squall was trying to get back to his friends. Either his thoughts were too vague and ended up at the orphanage and ultimecia followed or she used the last of her power to make it happen so she could complete the loop
@@finalfantasytheory thanks for the quick response! Makes sense the projection to the orphanage is a by-product of time compression. (Although i am not sure all of time has been compressed; just the post-adel to end of time). Let's assume your theory is true, and ultimecia becomes stronger over every loop ; if anyone were to realize her plan, would the "easiest" way to stop the loop be to sacrifice ellone, or to a lesser extend, rinoa?
Time loop sounds like ff1 with garland becomes chaos and ultimecia is similar but with the sorceress power in a ways or if rinoa is ultimecia like garland is chaos like they say for the theories of rinoa
Ff8 timeline makes no sense. In just 12 years, Edea builds the guardens, establishes seed, and learns about GF and how to use them, and then everyone involved gets anmnesia?
I like the theory,but I dont see Ultimecia gaining more power each loop. I rather think that she is traped in time loop and that this will only repeat forever her defeat is inveitable. In order for her to stop the seed she would create a paradoxon,where Edea doesn't get her power at that point nore Rinoa. She would need to to change the whole timeline. This theory would only for if she is lives/traped in a world and space ,where time doesn't exist ,but that would mean that she already compressed time and maybe only in the Castle. But this was never stated in the game so we dont know if the time in her Castle is compressed or not.
@@finalfantasytheory Yeah ,thats right ,but that would also mean that Edea and Rinoa would get more power each cycle ,therefore if Ultimecia gets stronger Rinoa will also ,maybe she is the reason why she always fail, also she doesn't say anything about Rinoa even though she is fighting her in the Final Battle ,we know that at the end of the game Rinoa is the one who saves Squall ,because she is not affected by Ultimecias time magic. I would like to see your theory being made into a FF 8 Remake,where Ultimecia finds out that the reason she always lose is Rinoa, because her power also grows with each cycle.
Perfect. Its almost a Lynchian time travel if you think about it. Could David Lynch have played FF8 before twin peaks season 3? ok, not important... but the thing i wanted to add... i believe you are right and game producers could explore this ambiguity in a future remake... but what i believe is that, even further, ultimecia is not ultimecia... she did not win... its a love story, marketed as such, beginning with the logo: squall was not tricked. it was his plan with rinoa all along, just so they could re-live their eternal love inside the loop, and laguna and julia were also part of the plan. They knew their love was so special that appearance couldnt kill it, they'd reincarnate as their sons and realize it... that's what happened.
Ultimecia walking around pigeon-toed on an episode of "Pregnant and Barefoot" in a tattoo parlor. I mean, she doesn't look pregnant but everything else is there. >________>
and i see connections here... not intentional i guess but anyway.... the thing about jenova... the life force that enslaves Mako, and the sorceresses... all things, all evils, seem to work in the same process in PSX's final fantasy games (I'm not into IX YET, coming back here years later or months later, maybe...)
Interesting, and if you go with sorceress power that gets passed on = Hyne living on through this process, he/artimesia get strong enough to return to his GodHood and fufill his goal of starting creation over. Damn lol
You have not considered the possibility that if sorceresses in the past become too strong because of receiving power from Ultimecia, young Ultimecia in the future could be defeated by a stronger sorceress (good or evil) that has all gained that power from the time loop. So maybe another sorceress in the future is the winner. But this would have happened anyway, as long the succession of sorceress powers is unstoppable, no matter if there's time loop or not.
in my theory, I'm only suggesting that the succession never changes, only the power level of each sorceress. Therefore the events of every sorceress transfer never change except for any changes their increased power might make. Now, that could mean a future version of Edea becomes too powerful for Ultimecia to overcome as Dr. Odine hypothesized that Adel could overcome Ultimecia's attempt at controlling her. This also depends on how the mind control works. Is it power related? Their will? The game doesn't fully explain. Will would make sense as if Adel might have been able to resist, her will to dominate everything would make her near Ultimecia's level of will as well. Arguably stronger since Adel feared nothing and Ultimecia feared getting old and death.
you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how causal loops work. it's only happening once, over and over again. edea is always gaining the same power from ultimecia and is then sought out by the past version of herself for that power. there is no gain. it's the same events re-occuring in an infinite loop. that's how bootstrap paradoxes operate.
How is she defeated by Squall the first time if her defeat is contingent on and adult Squall planting the idea of SeeD in the mind of Edea in the past?
@@finalfantasytheory yes, I know they try to explain it but it simply doesn’t work. This is the same cheap plot device used in the movie Interstellar. That film is beautifully made but ultimately a waste of time. No pun intended.
@@finalfantasytheory good point. I’m played through every numbered entry in the series again with my 13 year-old son. I can’t wait to get to the 13 trilogy again. Honestly, I understand the criticism of 13 but if you read the datalog entries the story is really well done. I wonder how a re-release would be received post-Darksouls/Elden Ring era now that we are comfortable with story being delivered via item descriptions.
I think your argument fill in holes to the story that other RUclipsrs aren’t discussing. It makes sense. I don’t agree with the idea that Rinoa is directly Ultimecia because i suspect they are two separate individuals. I suspected that Square Enix design Ultimecia to be another ultra-antagonist that follows a virw that Taurus-theme character are the ultimate villain. I see it in Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Ardyn and his brother, Darth Vader, Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet. To say that Rainos and Ultimecia are the same is like saying Jesus Christ and Emperor Palpatine are the same individuals.
Fair. I just wanted her to be more fleshed out. Her motives in game are very weak. It boils down to fearing aging and death which are very human fears which makes her semi sympathetic, but like kefka, her motives are too James bond villain.
@@finalfantasytheory i haven’t properly researched Kefka, but i can see where you are coming from and agree with you about her motivations and values. Furthermore, i suspect that a Final Fantasy Sequel, in the future, will have her and that one guy (i forget his name) who hides in his castle as antagonists in a story to a bigger conflict or trilogy. It will be dependent if Square Enix has the funding and desire to use them. It’s like they are building sequels around a bigger sequel. After COVID, it has left it’s mark and damage across all industries, and so I hope Square Enix can continue to produce more great titles and sequels. One thing that has kept me thinking what is the value or motivations for the previous titles. If all the different FF sequels are connect but segregated by planes or realities, what is the end game? Are we going to see Final Fantasies version of a Muti-verse wars like stage 4 Marvel and Kang the Conqueror. Are all the previous titles going to be pulled into an even bigger? Are they connected? As far as Ultimecia, I haven’t played FF8 for a good 20 years. If I had to guess what her motivation is, it’s to accumulate a large chunk of power in a cunning but risky approach, possibly what the character would believe to be in the short time with less effort. I get the impression she in an arms race for power. Instead of sitting around to increase her power, she passes it on and jumps to the future to caught it like a boomerang effect. Thats if it works in that manner. This is all theory crafting.
so... basically, ultimecia created an everlasting time loop to collect the power of witches until she becomes undefeatable? well, there are two little flaws in this theory: first, it's not ultimecia who makes squall return to the orphanage of the past, but rinoa. remember? rinoa made squall promise to meet her at the flower meadow behind the orphanage. thus, ultimecia's speech has nothing to do with the time loop. the second flaw are the witches we fight during the time travel. we fight three different types of witches and none of these fit into the story. I believe that the time loop (if there is one) is an accident and rather ultimecia's punishment. she is damned to re-live her defeat and rise over and over again.
@@finalfantasytheory if that's so, they should be mentioned anywhere and have names. but: neither do their outfits fit to their supposed represented time period nor do they have significant roles. what's even more strange: you fight six blue witches, four red-golden witches and one single caterpillar-like "mother witch". why do the two humanlike witches loop and the "mother-witch" doesn't? sorry, dude, no offense here, but something doesn't add up here.
@@phoneguy4637 I trust in FF8 there are in-universe history books which may mention some powerful evil sorceresses of the past who died under unknown circumstances. A simple logic points out their powers must be transfered to Rinoa after each single fight, which is not seen by graphical effects in the game.... maybe due to the physics in time-compressed realm. :)))
You cant create something from nothing. When Ultimecia is sent into the past for the final time, and passes her powers to Edea, Edea does not have Ultimecia's power before this. When the events of the game unfold (again), That power gets passed on, but any power that was Already there due to the events of the loop will remain constant and not duplicate. The only way this might be possible is to say this isnt a loop, but a multiverse, and there is no indication from the game producers or the game itself that hints to that. If what you said was true, as you said, she would reach a point where she would defeat Squall and enact he plans. But this would alter the events in her past, eliminating the very source of her power. You end up with a paradox. And as much as I'm sure Time Kompression (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) would achieve he goal, I don't think enacting a paradox is what she intended. Unless it was a bootstrap paradox, in which case, "Such devastation, this was not my intention!"
In the Japanese, she literally tells the party she pulls the ultimate GF from Squall's mind and who he believes is the strongest GF, which in his mind is Griever.
I don't get how Rinoa passed any of her power to Ultimecia or Adel. I remember the game well and RInoa doesn't die at all unless she dies during the fight with Ultimecia of course. So how is this power getting back to Ultimecia???
@@dragonprinceHP correct, but that is the lore of 8. That's my basis. I assume she dies an old age but passes her power on. The fact that Ultimecia is a sorceress in the future and Rinoa is the last standing sorceress in the present. Logically it would make sense that Rinoa has to pass that power on.
Yeah... BUT in the FF8 universe there shall be only one sorceress at a time. That's why Edea's powers are passed on to Rinoa, the nearest "vessel" available. It isn't possible that Edea became her powers from TWO different sorceress
Nah! Your theory assumes that Ultimecia is Hyne and that his powers belong to her. They don't. Her going back, created a double edged sword. Idea realised and started seed to stop her, that's where the idea was. But prior to that, in her original version SEED didn't exist. Seed is the difference.
The lore of the game is clear, all sorceressess possess a portion of the half of Hyne's soul. That's why they can't die until they pass on their power.
ultimecia and rinoa not beine the same person is what eventually makes ff8's story kinda stupid and the whole naming greivor thing completely pointless. i still don't know why they wouldn't have jumped on that despite it not being their intentions - it adds something interesting to a ff most people dislike
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She won because that dress slays 😍
you aren't wrong
Well it sure ain’t because of the goofy looking hair antlers
She ate
@@robthames5065 *handlebars ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
My understanding: Ultimecia is from far in the future where sorceresses get imprisoned/enslaved (which the game tells us) at a young age, when you fight her in the last form you can see a woman hanging upside down and I believe that this is Ultimecia's real body. I believe that her mind got so corrupted from being enslaved for such a long time, she found a way to escape it by mentally going outside of space time. Even though her mind was free again in het space-time Palace she still hungers for revenge, and the only way to execute her plan of destroying the world and becoming a god (and thus freeing her from her imprisonment and taking revenge on Human kind that enslaved her) is to take control over a sorceress in the past. What she doesn't fully realized is that when she takes over Edea she accidentally sets off a chain of events that will lead to her own demise. This is what she realised at the end of the final battle and why we says Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you, she has come to terms with the fact that she can not change what happened to her and this is where her story ends and she finally gets to die and be at peace.
Well she said she also forgot why she is doing things
One of the most popular theories we're Squall dies at some point and rinoa becomes ultimecia (this theory was debunked by the development team of FFVIII)
However there's still a chance that she lost someone maybe the person was murdered , your theory could play in to it
She becomes the lover of a warden ,he frees her but gets killed as traitor ,over time she forgotten him ,but has still the anger and hatred
This is my new sad boy head canon
@@ChrisAtheisthow was it debunked?
One of the producers in a final fantasy ultimania debunked it.
@@thecartoonfaxuator6878 how?
Yeah basically FF8 borrowed from FF1 but instead of Garland/Chaos having the four fiends use the power of the elemental crystals to send him back to the past before he died in the future, so he can take the power, become chaos and send the fiends forward to crate the loop. Ultimica uses the past sorceresses to basically create the same thing.
This is possible if ultimecia is conscious throughout the process, because she knows what's happening between loops. If this is her plan all along, then kudos to ultimecia!
its possible that ultimecia keeps knowledge of whom her powers pass through which then explains some of the old fan theories about ultimecia being rinoa its just that ultimecia saw rinoas memories so each loop she would essentially learn more and more about squall and his party since each loop would have variations she would see how they react each time
/
this in turn makes you wonder if at some point she starts giving edea power for more than one reason ~ maybe to test squall since she would know squall will eventually fight edea .... actually that also explains why edea knew where to shield from irvines sniper shot during the assassination mission
/
it would also explain why she takes seifer as a "knight" if ultimecia has rinoas and by that method edeas memories
I'm fully convinced Ultimecia is the true hero of the main plot...Ultimecia is attempting to SAVE herself from the timeloop of SeeD which only exists to destroy the Sorceress..she tricks squall and everyone into being killed in the future only to force a repetitive loop where squall tells Edea to create Garden and SeeD in the past....if Ultimecia is to ever succeed, a singular timeline where only she exists -is free from harm and able to live her life without fear of being hunted and murdered- will also allow her to be the final sorcerer thus ending the reasoning for a timeline where SeeD exists, where Sorcerers are hunted, and where society lives cohesively with one another....in relation to Squall and the timeline he exists in, he unknowingly forces himself into a timeloop by becoming SeeD and defeating future-ultimecia. It's likely that Ultimecia [allows] herself to be killed by squall in an attempt to initiate the timeloop and transfer her powers to Edea from the past...who will eventually be possessed by her in the future anyway. If the sorceress powers continue to grow, forcing herself to transfer her powers to a witch from the past allows her sorceress powers to grow unaffected by time travel....eventually, Ultimecia will succeed...she has every right to protect herself, as the sorceress powers are not something someone asks for, but rather forced into as the previous sorceress dies and the powers are forcefully given to anyone with magical affinity to contain it....Ultimecia, in conclusion, was forced into becoming a hated woman due to SeeD and knew she would one day be murdered...her motive is to eliminate all these points of suffering by using her magic to create a reality where she won't be murdered, SeeD won't exist, and the sorceress powers will end with her as she will have no one to pass her powers on to...
(to support this theory: Squall defeats the version of ultimecia that exists within his future, however Rinoa will eventually pass her sorceress powers on and eventually reach the woman who inevitably becomes Ultimecia. Unless squall is able to discover the identity of the woman who eventually becomes Ultimecia, defeating her future-self only reactivates a timeloop. Squall, in attempt to save himself and rescue the timeline he exists in, unknowingly helps ultimecia. To repeat: ULTIMECIA WAS NEVER EVIL, the world she exists in far into the future forced her into isolation as society knew SeeD existed to destroy her as a sorceress, while she may appear cold on the surface, she sees the past-reality through which she travels to and manipulates Edea from, as a point in time that is RESPONSIBLE for forcing her future self to become helpless and victim to mistreatment for powers she never wanted....she is forced into being hated, given powers she never wanted, and through these circumstances becomes aware that she will, in fact, be murdered....Squall is both halting and aiding ultimecia, both helping and hurting. Until he exists in a timeline where he does not become SeeD (which will not happen) it will be ultimecia who pays the price for it...
truly intriguing and well thought out!
@@finalfantasytheory - thank you my friend, I am currently playing through FF8 again and was able to pick up these overlooked plotnotes, especially about the Curse of Hyde which is what gives the sorceresses their powers....Hyne "immortalized" himself by making it that each body he possesses, they [have] to give the powers before that body can die......
From what I understand, this was the case.
the 3 Initial Timelines-
In the First Timeline...
All the characters in the game that we know existed, but not with the same relevance as when we played, in that timeline, Ultimecia was eventually defeated by other characters.
*Here I mean that it was NOT defeated by the Seeds, but by another institution for calling it that, Likewise, Ultimecia was not as strong as we knew her in the game either.*
And as implied in the ending of the game, Ultimecia went back to the past to find a sorceress to pass on her powers (and essence with her thoughts and purposes).
In a Second Timeline, Edea knows what will happen to her in the future after she received Ultimecia's powers and memories
she knew it and couldn't avoid it, That's why she, in this timeline, started the Seeds project...
*But not as perfected as we knew it in the game*, in which Squall was not involved either.
As the years went by Ultimecia began to have more control over Edea
Ultimecia's plans were carried out to the point that she (Ultimecia) was "born" in the future where (I guess) she killed Edea to regain her powers.. but this time, Ultimecia was defeated by The Seeds
Third time line;
Here are the events of FFVIII, if I remember correctly when Ultimecia possessed Edea, She (Ultimecia) remember the Seeds, those who defeated her in a past timeline..
Here there was an essential change compared to the previous timeline. Upon receiving Ultimecia's powers and memories, Edea knew that the project was successful, but not in the way expected
Indeed Ultimecia was defeated, but they failed to stop Edea (Like in FFVIII) and the future was already all screwed
So this time, she (Edea) perfected the Seed project even more, including the characters we use in the game.
and they failed (again)
Then everything continues as we already know, Squall and company defeat Ultimecia, at that moment where they were lost in time, Squall finds Edea and tells her about the Seed project that she started... and in the end everything seems that from this point on it will be an endless loop
Maybe in a fourth timeline things could have been different
Since this time Edea will know that it is not enough to just stop her (kill her), but they would also have to eliminate any existing sorceress at the time (including Rinoa) so that Ultimecia's power cannot reach anyone and is lost forever.
Especially the one they would have to eliminate is Ellone because if they don't, in the future Ultimecia will use her ability to send her consciousness to the past (I suppose Ultimecia also learned to send her power)
Remember that Ultimecia will always be born in the future. Despite the ending of Final Fantasy 8, Squall and company eliminated an adult Ultimecia who had already regained her powers and also took possession of Ellone, since in the end, Ultimecia returned to the past again and inherited her memories/consciousness, powers, etc. to Edea
It's a pain if you think about it... they only have 2 ways to prevent history from repeating itself... eliminate all the sorceresses or eliminate Ultimecia before she is born (if you can call it that)
SIRRRRRR!!!!! THANK YOU DID (edit:)Not EVEN READ YET!!!!!!!
ORIGINAL CLOUD STRIFE A NORMAL BODY BOY WHO DOESN'T WEILD HEAVY SWORDS AND IS GENETICALLY MODIFIED!!!!. A.K.A USES A DAMN GUN NOT A HUGE SWORD. This was a normal reality service anouncement.
Jak 2 has the same point ------------- FIRST TIMELINE "I WILL KILL YOU"(HE SAYS WHILE) ON TABLE GETTING SHOCKED. WHAT WAS FIRST JAK FROM JAK AND DAXTER?????
Is there actual evidence of all this or is it another theory?
Always had a crush on her
me too. i always wondered how she'd sound when she kums.
@@matttrent946....you really thought no one would see this, didn't you?
@@aeroevans9987But unless you know him irl, your statement holds little weight. 😔
I'm going to buy that Ultimecia might have created a time loop... but I'm going to put a hard pass on her ultimately winning. Time travel, and especially 'time compression' would have to be insanely costly to do. So, she can set the loop and give the Matron her power, but after expending so much to try to compress time, do the battle (she's ultimately dying from the party as well, which is going to weaken her more) and then using more magic to send her power to the Matron through time (which is in a hell of a spot at the moment, so how knows if that'd be easier or harder), she'd probably only send... well how powerful Edea is, or less so and she grew in power by the time we fight her in VIII. Otherwise it's not a stable loop and something would break and the whole game is pointless, which I've yet to see a Final Fantasy that goes that route.
I like the timeloop not ever ending. It makes sense in a meta context of it being a video game.
Right lol
Ah, Ultimecia and Edea. FF8 game me an undying fetish for hot evil women when I was 11.
Is it strange for anyone to think Ultimecia looks hot?
@@LordMalice6d9 m8 I've been fapping for her for over two decades now
@@LordMalice6d9 Nah she's a baddie.
It’s certainly possible but I’ve always chalked it all up to this being the problem when you bring time into a medium. It puts so many plot holes an variables into play.
yes it does! Time travel always makes plot holes but it also makes for great theories. I think Final Fantasy 8 has the most theories of any of the games and it's due to the odd plot and time travel. Thanks for watching and subscribing!!!
I'm not sure how this would give ultimecia more power when what's happening is a time loop. It could only work if ultimecia existed outside the time loop itself. She gained enough power to allow her to begin the time compression, but was still defeated and travels back to pass her power to edea.
The only way she could win this would be to break the loop, and if she breaks it she can't travel back in time to begin the process.
It's a paradox
like I said time travel is confusing lol My thoughts on this and feel free to disagree lol is that Ultimecia culminates all of the power she has and then goes back and passes that power onto Edea which follows the cycle to Rinoa - whoever she passes onto - so on and so forth until Ultimecia gets her power. She added power into the time line that wasn't there at first and each time she goes back she adds more power into the sorceress line that wasn't there. Obviously I could be wrong, many commenters made excellent points and I'm glad everyone is having that conversation!
Whenever you pull the time travel card its always confusing. Plus who is to say each loop is the same timeline.
No. It only works if time is LINEAR. If it's a multiverse, then this really doesn't do anything... except for those timelines where her plan works out. Which, if the Multiverse theory works in the case of Ultimecia's Time Compression plan, she's ALREADY won. Then it's likely Ultimecia is the universe itself replaying it's memories through every person who EVER lived, so she can come back to consciousness as a God.
The game implies that TIME is linear though, so... yes. By the simple 1,2,3, logic of mathematics and the principles of the sorceress's powers, Ultimecia won. It's only a matter of TIME.
@@thesurvivorssanctuary6561 the marvel multiverse concept wasn't known back when this game came out, at least outside the comics, so its unlikely they used that multiverse shit when they made this.
Any story involving time travel has to establish its own rules for it, because they are not all the same
Rinoa is stacked.
I like the idea of Rinoa becoming an Alternate Universe/2nd Ultimecia that compressed time to be alone due to Squall dying at the end of disc 1.
I like this one too man
I don't think she's the winner. I think there was something incredibly dark and tragic hinted at during her dialogue at the later part during her final form.
She wanted to know everything about the past, present and future. As she gained that knowledge she *also* gained the knowledge of how things were going to end up and that she had made a huge mistake she'd pay for forever. She realized she was going to lose. And she realized she was going to go around and around time forever. In other words, she was begging Squall: "Think... About your childhood..." (Please kill me before I reach her this time!) But Squall, the party and even the player can't understand. This is why Squall appears briefly to witness Ultimecia pass on the curse. Ultimecia used the last of her power to take Squall there on purpose to strike her down. So I interpreted her final line of "Can't... Die... Yet." as her horror at realizing this didn't work. It didn't work all the other times and it won't work now.
The Sorceress of time will spend an eternity of doing time in time itself. It is a Jojo villain fate for her!
It's also even darker when you realized she may have killed every other human besides herself in the future tense. The fact that she fails to stop her horrific fate means as she dies so does humanity. Humans have an expiration date and there is nothing that can stop that. It's 'time locked'.
This is how they could have worked an expanded an extra story.
When I beat the game the 2nd time, I get the impression ultimacia won. While squall was lost in the void ultimacia deceived him to think she is rinoah with this forced happy ending so he could be her knight for the rest of his life.
Look, even with FFIX, I still thought that Terra would still assimilate Gaia in the end, and that they woukd have to accept their limited time left. Well, the copy I had at the time couldn't play FMVs so, I was left without the grand ending of Terra becoming the next crystalof Gaia. I still question that ending, and how Zidane even survived that attack of the Iifa Tree roots.
I like this theory! I believe my only counter-argument is that its not stated in the game that the sorceress powers stack with each timeloop, I think the time paradox was only to give context to Ultimecia’s time powers.
Also great thumbnail.
It's true that it doesn't indicate the powers stack because the powers can also be lost if the sorceress doesn't find a successor. My assumption comes from the fact that Adel and Edea are so strong. Odine indicates there are no other sorceresses in the world but Rinoa and Adel at the time of Lunatic Pandora. Given how strong Edea was, this tells me the powers stack but that is just my thought. At the same time, you look at the time compressed world where you face off against the many sorceresses and they are all weak except the weird slug looking one. Unfortunately the lore doesn't dig deep enough into it.
@@finalfantasytheory I think the sorceress power do multiply.
Although we never had the opportunity to see Edea casting a spell while unpossessed by Ultimecia, we could see how Rinoa struggled to control the immense power. She can cast spells by using 2 options: either through GF like before becoming a sorceress, or by using her new powers via her limit break Angel Wings. While using her wings the player can't control her and she casts spells randomly, as if she does not know what is she doing, but her spells are very powerful. On the other hand, when Edea received Ultimecia's powers, she already was a very skilled sorceress, so she probably had no trouble to adapt to increased powers... while Rinoa was just a noob in being a sorceress.
What Ultimecia means by her statement is that one cannot escape time, only by controlling it, can you not be enslaved by it.
In Ultimecia's last form, you see her real body hanging from another form. My theory is that the other form is the original essence of Sorceress, Hein. Its such a mysterious entity, named throughout all of the game that it makes no sense to be forgotten.
As ULtimecia gather the powers of all the Sorceress she becomes the true vessel of Hein, all its power finally joined in one place in time.
So when it is defeated Hein just sends Ultimecia back in time again and again hoping that something will change... Elone may be part of Hein herself, being able to send cousciousness back in time, not being a Sorceress seems strange, it looks like a midpoint failsafe for her to able to control a huge extent of time. Jusy my 2 pennies here lol
Alt theory: Ulty wins because she frees herself from being persecuted and ends the sorceress line. Imagine, she's the last remaining sorceress getting hunted and possibly imprisoned for fear of being "Ultimecia." She does everything in FF8, and then goes back in time to relinquish her powers to Edea. If she does this, that means that in her original timeline, no one else would receive the power of Hein. She is free, and no one else will bear the burden of being a sorceress from her original time on.
An interesting proposition for a Remake sequel would be for Ultimecia to break that cycle and instead enter Squall's time line into another candidate and wreck havok.
Time Assassins
You uhh saying something?
I was uhh distracted by the thumbnail.
This has been my head cannon since 1998 lol. Kefka and Ultamecia I consider the best bosses: Kefka cause he actually dooms the world and Ultimecia because of Time Kompression.
Love that Ultimecia was Russian for some reason
@@finalfantasytheory i think that was more of a localization thing. If memory serves me right, in the original Japanese her "tone" is more masculine than feminine. Tho the localization for FF8 is uniquely weird. 2 that stand out being Squall and Ultimecia.
Squall - Jp: is more "introverted and blunt",
Eng: "standoff-ish and rude."
Ultimecia - Jp: best condenced "mature tomboy", Eng: fucking Russian witch lol
I never fully understood him as far as his feelings for rinoa when playing cause he came off as rude in English than reserved and uninterested in Japanese. Its super subtle but enough to change his "realization" after rinoa gets taken away from "I've been a complete ass to her but I love her" in English to "I've pushed someone away who truly shows they care about me" in Japanese...if that makes sense?
@@Fluffykunn it does. You should check out Final Fantasy VIII in a nutshell by Rabtoons, very funny parody of the game and one of the things they mock is Squall suddenly going from hating Rinoa to loving her
@@finalfantasytheory I love their parodies lol. And their ff8 one is perfect example of how awkward the translation was.
This would be even more confirmed if there were a new game plus where you level over 100 and every monster/boss still scaled with you
It seems to me that this game its scenarios, locations, characters, are fixed and static while you/we the observer/central meaner are engaged in playing its stories. we imbue the game with are own vitality animating and engaging with what is essentially a reflection of ourselves. The themes and outcomes are set. Only when not playing after a cycle ends do the characters, locations and stories become unfixed and in flux with their potentialities returned to them. Is Squall dead in a way yes. Is Rinoa the final sorceress yes and no. When we play the game their characters and relationships are fixed in our mind. When we stop playing the game they return to a state of flux although the outcome remains the same. That they only exist and are animate through the observer within the unending loop of the game. There is no true resolution this is shown clearly in the final frames of the end credits where Squall and Rinoa can never quite Embrace. For this reason Ff8 is perhaps the most alluring and enigmatic of the mainline titles.
This is a very interesting theory; I may be thinking too much into this, but it seems to me if the power was looped from the same source for an increase in power it would be similar to a break in the founding law of thermodynamics, BUT if each loop her powers grew almost like someone gaining experience, adeptness and strength through practice and exercise it would make a tremendous amount of sense to me.
Big thumbs up!
I never liked nor believed the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory but this...now this is believable.
Great vid. I look forward to hearing more theories.
I'm glad you liked it!!!!!
This theory work well with rinoa is ultimecia theory; all those convoluted timey wimey stuffs becoz rinoa want to end it all...
Very true, a lot of her dialogue hints at her and Ultimecia being the same!
It is an infinite loop because you forget one thing. Rinioa gets Edea's powers and then Adel's making her stronger than the Ultimecia that casts Time Compression. Every loop Ultimecia gets stronger but so does Rinoa. The only way to break the loop is for Edea to kill Rinoa at the end of disc 1, and that's Edea'a play. History states that Seed beats Ultimicia, it never mentions Rinoa so Ultimecia never has Edea kill her before Rinoa becomes a sorceress.
I always believe the powers of the sorceress remain the same, it didn't multiply, sorceress will always have the same level of magic regardless of how many sorceress they gain powers from. the only reason Ultimacia wanted to go so further into the past was to achieve the time compression loop, why? who knows! but to do that she needed the powers of Elone, I don't think was because she needed more power. that is what i understand. And even if Ultimacia create a loop, that loop will lead to her defeat. At the end she lose because she die, defeated by Seed's.
They were each given shards from the first. So absorbing another's powers would give them more fragments and more powerful. Otherwise they wouldn't state "powerful sorceress," that means there are sorceress's of lesser powerful.
@@airnoiphongsavath3340 power in that case means she was a ruler and not one you could easily defeated, like for example saying Hitler was "powerful dictator" didn't mean he had dictatorship "powers" that stack up, because a dictador at the end is a man like any other but so to maintain their power they make a army to defend themselves. Utlimacia was a sorceress like any other, however, she lived in a floating castle not easily accesible, with many minions inside to protect her and demi bosses, even a omega weapon. So that explains the "power sorceress" statement.
I like this theory. Keep more coming! Just watch out for the vocal fumbles and maybe re-record mistakes so that you have more momentum
Haha, yeaaaaa, this was one of my first ones and I was super noob. Still learning but getting much better I think.
I agree with your theory. I just played the remastered version. I came to the exact same conclusion you did, but I’ve been looking to see if anyone else has. Most videos don’t connect this.
In my mind, it was just plain as day throughout the whole game and dialogue.
Glad you liked the theory and have the same conclusion!!!
So like a new game+, eh? Thats an interesting thought.
This game needs it with more to do after completing the story. Like a tales of game.
I find it interesting that people debate whether it is a time *loop* or not, without acknowledging other possibilities; I think it's more like a time *mobius*. A mobius being a single loop with a half twist.
When Edea received Ultimecia's powers in the orphanage, everyone (the plot) entered the INSIDE of the loop. When Ultimecia is eventually defeated, this represents the one and only time where you cross that "twist" in the loop. When the party journeys back through the uncompression of time and "witnesses the same event again", it's actually just Squall and co. moving forward on the OUTSIDE of the loop.
Squall witnessing the events he experienced as a child is explainable by the fact that time is uncompressing (i.e. the mobius has its twist here).
The key to all of this is *you continue to live the rest of your life BEYOND the loop*. We see in the end credits everyone celebrating at Garden.
It's like a loop-de-loop in Sonic; you go in, go around, and then go OUT.
I came to this conclusion, in part, due to the "point-line-plane" postulate. Watch this video, and then the one on the 5th dimension on the same channel ruclips.net/video/MN4KC_zlW4g/видео.html&pp=ygUbSW1hZ2luaW5nIHRoZSA0dGggZGltZW5zaW9u basically, time is a dimension like any other (spatial), and thus, isn't simply linear. If shaped like a mobius, you can get a plot like this!
The real paradox is to understand how was the story before the loop started... because 'SeeD' would have never existed without Squall going to the past to tell Edea who are 'SeeD'... and if 'SeeD' never existed, Ultimecia and Squall would have never started the loop, so the entire story is a paradox...
This means Ultimecia has no really the control of the time to decide to start the loop, but she is herself a victim of the time paradox too...
Time flows like a river and Ultimecia is upstream. I think the idea of seed came from her time as the "last seeds of hope" and maybe in defiance said they have always existed to defy the sorceress and a legendary seed would strike her down. Ultimecia fears death so despite her overwhelming power she wants to stop this threat by ending Seed from the begining. She scours time through her junction machine ellone. She uncovers Seed during Edea's time and in her first shot through time attempts to kill them. Mentions Seed and her knowledge that doesn't exist in the past at that point. She is defeated by someone(not squall and company) She travels back in time to young Edea and passes her power onto her and fades. I think Edea would do the same as before and ask who the seed was and they would explain they were seed from garden before popping out of her time and going back to the future. Then the cycle would repeat but now that the concept of seed has been introduced to the past, the events to the future alter slightly. This would fit as the game suggests this isn't the first time Ultimecia went back as Edea says she took on the powers of an unknown sorceress to prevent the children from becoming a sorcerss.
@@finalfantasytheory I think Squall is a key element for the time loop just as Ultimecia is,. And I agree it's not the 1st time then Ultimecia went back... it could be the 2nd... o maybe the 1000th... it is the same for Laguna's story. Laguna and friends won lots of battles thanks to "fairies"... who are coming from the future!
That's is also the meaning of Liberi Fatali -> Sons of destiny. They are all subjected to their destiny. And also Ultimecia is.
It's easier for Ultimecia to win if she can change an event that stops the paradox, more easier that extending the paradox to infinite. But she can't stop the paradox becuse she is also subjected to her destiny.
@@FF8FansChannel maybe the 1000th time they fought DAMNNNNN!!!!! what about HYNE too Then 1000 times (strenghtened or weakened)!!!!! Also any hints to Why Squall and crew (just in case a hidden witch to blame) So SPecial that the future people can do nothing to stop things from happening like Death in ChildBirth Power to Timeline (Squall's MOM)
Until Edea gets to powerful and can't be defeated by the party. Which in turn would change the future and make ultimacia not to be born to Inhert these powers.
I feel it would only be the future powers sent to the past at its same power level
My thoughts exactly. An interesting theory nonetheless.
Well, the time loop is only created because the original Ultimecia became powerful to create time compression in the first place. So it would stand to reason in every subsequent loop she remains the most powerful sorceress. Otherwise the loop is broken. The loop should only be breakable by Ultimecia eventually remaining undefeated.
got to love time travel lol
Ultimecia’s problem was never a lack of power. She was always powerful enough to cast time compression and she did so. Her problem was she did not possess Ellone’s power. Ellone was the ultimate trump card to Ultimecia. If even it existed, power stacking doesn’t change that.
So, if she knows, don't you think she would have known exactly who would slay her before hand, in each loop.
Also, it's very unique how they front Edea as the antagonist, until Disc Three. I really like when they bring in plot twists like this, which also explains this has been a thing way before the plot we witness even happens. Adel is just very horrifically terrifying
I never paid attention as to why they had no communications until the whole space station incident and the lunar Cry.
Edit: Also, it looks like Ultimecia is reaching in for a hug in the thumbnail, hahaha!😂😂😂
huh, it does look like she wants a hug. I think it's like a harry potter Voldemort thing. She knows there are "Legendary" Seeds destined to kill her and she essentially causes this in each iteration. This could explain why Edea came up with Seed before you beat the game and went into the past.
Sorry you have so many stupid comments to this video, asking questions that you just answered in the video and bringing up other theories.
Your theory rocks
thank you! glad you liked it!!!!
If this is true, then in the End *No One* wins and *Everyone Wins* ... Depends on the angle you look from at it
I think you are somewhat right, and maybe its also a bit of a draw. I was thinking you could also see it that she simply has achieved her goal to rule time when you go to her castle this is already in another time dimension or something, couldnt it simply be that this is what she is ruling. And because of the seed getting there she simply resets the loop because she will loose to the seed. But if she compresses time she keeps the loop going that causes squall to start the whole loop again causing her to be ruler of her own dimension the whole game until the point you reach her.
I know it's confusing because magic and time travel is involved but the thing is Time Compression is why she's dead and why the Sorceress Power ends with Rinoa and Ultimecia. If it wasn't for the time loop of Ultimecia handing the power to Ednea to Rinoa which ends with Ultimecia again then we'd never get rid of her. It's the act of her giving the power to the past that allows us to escape Ultimecias Wraith. Because if she has no future successor then she can no longer exist. If she gave anyone her power at her own time period she can live on in a different way. But she chose to be the ultimate form of selfish desire and make the entire reality bend to her rather than build a legacy or memory. At the end of the game it's implied no one remembers Ultimecia thus making her entire existence feel invalidated as a sign of disrespect for all the harm she has caused. Meanwhile Squall and Rinoa live one to forge their own memories with all pain and trauma forgotten. Amazing story.
Just to make sure you understand by having Ultimecia give the power into the past rather than the future she makes it so Sorceress's no longer exist past her own time period therefore she cannot exist past the point she was present. Because remember what Ednea said when Ultimecia appeared? "A Sorceresses cannot truly die until they pass on their power" and by having her do it in a timeloop with Ednea > Rinoa > Ultimecia > Ednea >>> Ultimecia we wouldn't be free of the Sorceress. It had to be Ednea if they wanted to break free. It was fate and luck that Squall led her there. If she picked any other person she would win but since she specifically picked Ednea she killed the Sorceress Power forever. That's kind why it was Lagunas plan. It's both his and her own plan but he was smarter by making her own plans backfire. Laguna predicted this. How? Not clear. It's vaguely implied thanks to Sqaull looking into the Past Laguna was able to see into the Future. That's why when they meet they're not really surprised.
Considering how dreamlike the ending of the game is, I think it could be debated if you even actually defeat her.
But if she gives all that power to Edea, eventually Edea will be too powerful for a weaker Ultimecia to possess from the future.
It's more likely shes in a prison repeating the same moments throughout all of time never ending.
Also definitely possible. That would still somewhat make her the winner in that she can still potentially break the loop if she realizes she is stuck in one.
Just so we're all clear, her real name is Artemisia.
One thing bothers me: why didn't she play lottery? 🤔🤔🤔
I mean, she is from the future. She should know some results...
I mean you aren't wrong
Dying Ultimecia passes her powers -----> Edea
Edea controlled by Ultimecia's consciousness -----> defeated by Squall
Edea passes her powers -----> Rinoa
Rinoa controlled by Ultimecia's consciousness ------> awakens Adel
Adel absorbs Rinoa's powers -----> defeated by Squall
Ultimecia made time compression ------> defeated by Squall
Defeated Ultimecia passes her powers ------> Edea
And loop goes on and on..
Something something time travel . . . something something complete
The pronunciation of the NAAAAAMESS. 😭 cool theory tho
In fairness, 8 was the pre voice acting age which meant we were left to figure it out for ourselves. Dissaddia for the PSP pronounced Ultimecia like Ulta-me-sha. I personally always thought it more like Ulta-mesha
I always thought Ellone was 'alone' not 'ellen' personally
i always pronounced Edea with the "a" silent which would make it sound more like "Ead" which is like eat but with a "d" at the end or like how the word "concede" is pronounced but without the c o n c E D E lol but yea this was before we had voice actors so it was up to us to pronounce it how we read those words 😂 to me Chocobos will always be pronounced like Cocoa Bow 's
Squenix should remake FF8 for more mature audiences and canonize the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, make 2 parts where the 1st part explains the time loop and in the 2nd part it's up to the player to become part of the loop and live in a single infinite moment with Rinoa, or kill her and save the world, with the option of getting the happy ending after a second playthrough. If they do it right and plan out the story to match the time loop, it wouldn't feel repetitive, kind of like Netflix's Dark.
They should go more mature. Like most have people dying anyway, nothing wrong with blood. That's what pissed me off in the 7 Remake. They went weak and did fog or black ooze instead of blood
A big issue with that is that they hate the R=U theory and have outright shot it down in interviews. That those two are supposed to represent the dichotomy of sorceresses and are most definitely not the same person. There is more in common with Halicarnassus from FF5 and Ultimecia than there is between Riona and Ultimecia.
@@OrphimKitase just sub writer that time, he made statement without asking his fellow writer.
Been years since really played FF8. But if i remember she is "far" into the future. You are assuming that one of the sorceresses that does get the time looped power, does not change the future and Ulimecia may never be born or her life experience has change because of the power consolidation. Example: would any of us be alive if the titanic didn't sink, who extra would be alive. Further back, what if the American revolution never happened, has same question. Any event big or small.
Will say she is dying when she transfers her power, so has little to lose anyways.
time travel is confusing lol We can tell from in game dialogue that at the very least, this is the second time Sorceress Ultimecia has been defeated and sent her powers into the past. as Edea tells the party she recieved two different Sorceresses powers. One when she was a child and one when she was watching the children in the orphange.
My theory is Squall has crones disease and that is why he is able to force Crits because he’s always trying to hurry battles along so he can go potty
I’m not stuck in my body with Ultimecia, she’s stuck in there with me.
Holy shit that is terrifying!
Isn't it though?
Oh I just realized why nobody gets it "The Sorceress" and Ultimecia are basically separate entities. That's why they explicitly state the previous Sorceress Wars because it was to show this happened long before Ellone was born. "The Sorceress" has always been evil. As for the true form of this "Sorceress" is greatly unknown. We can only assume Hyne had something to do with it. Which could be Hynes corrupted Identity through all the Guardian Forcesthey used throughout the years thus forgetting their true purpose other than to "Exist". But again I want to really emphasize after she's dead nobody remembers her. Alll thanks to Guardian Forces.
There's one issue though, it is explicitly stated that every time a sorceress passes down her power, the power weakens.
I don't recall that. When? Was it the English or Japanese version? Truly curious. Thank you for bringing that up
this is so good! That one sentence always bugged me. Did she project herself in squall's childhood at the end of the battle with the help of the ellen junction?
Time was compressed and squall was trying to get back to his friends. Either his thoughts were too vague and ended up at the orphanage and ultimecia followed or she used the last of her power to make it happen so she could complete the loop
@@finalfantasytheory thanks for the quick response! Makes sense the projection to the orphanage is a by-product of time compression. (Although i am not sure all of time has been compressed; just the post-adel to end of time).
Let's assume your theory is true, and ultimecia becomes stronger over every loop ; if anyone were to realize her plan, would the "easiest" way to stop the loop be to sacrifice ellone, or to a lesser extend, rinoa?
Time loop sounds like ff1 with garland becomes chaos and ultimecia is similar but with the sorceress power in a ways or if rinoa is ultimecia like garland is chaos like they say for the theories of rinoa
I like it! Can we get a part 2?
ACTUALLY, I do have a part 2 I'm working on lol
@@finalfantasytheory I'm excited I can't wait
@@finalfantasytheoryI'm still waiting for part 2! One year later
@@goblin7372and...... Here we go ruclips.net/video/JKD6Uo6Ako8/видео.htmlsi=nYQEWuT45_IHvEeX
@@finalfantasytheory yes thank u!
Holy shit you're right. Still doesn't rule out R=U but this definitely is true
R=U was already admitted not to be true
is the same with Young xehanort finally becomes the Old xehanort we knew .. and then Ansem come into play..
Ff8 timeline makes no sense. In just 12 years, Edea builds the guardens, establishes seed, and learns about GF and how to use them, and then everyone involved gets anmnesia?
Right??? But I love 8 despite it's crazieness
So where is FFVIII-2? Where we see this timeline?
This is exactly what I thought!
Sounds a lot like what Garland did in FF1 which was later used as Idea for Dissidia which is why Feral Chaos is actually a thing
Never played 1. Plan to when the remasters come out
I assumed she created a perpetual loop. As long as everything repeats itself infinitely, she would attain immortality.
I like the theory,but I dont see Ultimecia gaining more power each loop.
I rather think that she is traped in time loop and that this will only repeat forever her defeat is inveitable.
In order for her to stop the seed she would create a paradoxon,where Edea doesn't get her power at that point nore Rinoa.
She would need to to change the whole timeline.
This theory would only for if she is lives/traped in a world and space ,where time doesn't exist ,but that would mean that she already compressed time and maybe only in the Castle.
But this was never stated in the game so we dont know if the time in her Castle is compressed or not.
But if she does gain more power she will eventually achieve time compression, meaning that all time is one, therefore paradox avoided
@@finalfantasytheory Yeah ,thats right ,but that would also mean that Edea and Rinoa would get more power each cycle ,therefore if Ultimecia gets stronger Rinoa will also ,maybe she is the reason why she always fail, also she doesn't say anything about Rinoa even though she is fighting her in the Final Battle ,we know that at the end of the game Rinoa is the one who saves Squall ,because she is not affected by Ultimecias time magic.
I would like to see your theory being made into a FF 8 Remake,where Ultimecia finds out that the reason she always lose is Rinoa, because her power also grows with each cycle.
@@doriansz3130 would be funny!
The first wannabe reality warper in the franchise. Her time compression thing is another word for reality warping.
Perfect. Its almost a Lynchian time travel if you think about it. Could David Lynch have played FF8 before twin peaks season 3? ok, not important... but the thing i wanted to add... i believe you are right and game producers could explore this ambiguity in a future remake... but what i believe is that, even further, ultimecia is not ultimecia... she did not win... its a love story, marketed as such, beginning with the logo: squall was not tricked. it was his plan with rinoa all along, just so they could re-live their eternal love inside the loop, and laguna and julia were also part of the plan. They knew their love was so special that appearance couldnt kill it, they'd reincarnate as their sons and realize it... that's what happened.
Ultimecia walking around pigeon-toed on an episode of "Pregnant and Barefoot" in a tattoo parlor. I mean, she doesn't look pregnant but everything else is there.
>________>
Well technically since she's stuck in a time loop she gets to live forever
and i see connections here... not intentional i guess but anyway.... the thing about jenova... the life force that enslaves Mako, and the sorceresses... all things, all evils, seem to work in the same process in PSX's final fantasy games (I'm not into IX YET, coming back here years later or months later, maybe...)
Love this theory
Interesting, and if you go with sorceress power that gets passed on = Hyne living on through this process, he/artimesia get strong enough to return to his GodHood and fufill his goal of starting creation over. Damn lol
And Hyne is brought to you in this vide 0:10 o coming out tomorrow! ruclips.net/video/JKD6Uo6Ako8/видео.htmlsi=nYQEWuT45_IHvEeX
I thought Hyne died in seclusion as did his descendents.
@@Joe_334 Hyne split his soul and when he did so, half of him went into a sleep. The other half was the sorceresses and their continued line
Lilith Scarlett and Hecate 😅
She won because she is right. Time should be kompressed.
You have not considered the possibility that if sorceresses in the past become too strong because of receiving power from Ultimecia, young Ultimecia in the future could be defeated by a stronger sorceress (good or evil) that has all gained that power from the time loop. So maybe another sorceress in the future is the winner. But this would have happened anyway, as long the succession of sorceress powers is unstoppable, no matter if there's time loop or not.
in my theory, I'm only suggesting that the succession never changes, only the power level of each sorceress. Therefore the events of every sorceress transfer never change except for any changes their increased power might make. Now, that could mean a future version of Edea becomes too powerful for Ultimecia to overcome as Dr. Odine hypothesized that Adel could overcome Ultimecia's attempt at controlling her. This also depends on how the mind control works. Is it power related? Their will? The game doesn't fully explain. Will would make sense as if Adel might have been able to resist, her will to dominate everything would make her near Ultimecia's level of will as well. Arguably stronger since Adel feared nothing and Ultimecia feared getting old and death.
you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how causal loops work. it's only happening once, over and over again. edea is always gaining the same power from ultimecia and is then sought out by the past version of herself for that power. there is no gain. it's the same events re-occuring in an infinite loop. that's how bootstrap paradoxes operate.
How do you guys pronounce Edea? I thought it was Eedee?
Uhdeeuh lol the pre voice acting age when we had to guess
Even Square can't agree they made a character named Edea in the voice acted Bravely Default and changed how they pronounced it between games
Bruh I cant get over the "Ultimeesha" you keep saying, who that is?? 😂😂😂😂
That's how they say it in dissadia the original
How is she defeated by Squall the first time if her defeat is contingent on and adult Squall planting the idea of SeeD in the mind of Edea in the past?
That is what we call a plot hole that they try to explain as something something time travel something something paradox something something complete
@@finalfantasytheory yes, I know they try to explain it but it simply doesn’t work. This is the same cheap plot device used in the movie Interstellar. That film is beautifully made but ultimately a waste of time. No pun intended.
@@DrVarner time travel is always risky and often lazy. I'm actually surprised that 13-2 did well at it
@@finalfantasytheory good point. I’m played through every numbered entry in the series again with my 13 year-old son. I can’t wait to get to the 13 trilogy again. Honestly, I understand the criticism of 13 but if you read the datalog entries the story is really well done. I wonder how a re-release would be received post-Darksouls/Elden Ring era now that we are comfortable with story being delivered via item descriptions.
This theory is a lot like the plot of Madoka Magica.
Every theory seems correct since the writers did shitty job at the end of the game events.
I think your argument fill in holes to the story that other RUclipsrs aren’t discussing. It makes sense. I don’t agree with the idea that Rinoa is directly Ultimecia because i suspect they are two separate individuals. I suspected that Square Enix design Ultimecia to be another ultra-antagonist that follows a virw that Taurus-theme character are the ultimate villain. I see it in Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Ardyn and his brother, Darth Vader, Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet. To say that Rainos and Ultimecia are the same is like saying Jesus Christ and Emperor Palpatine are the same individuals.
Fair. I just wanted her to be more fleshed out. Her motives in game are very weak. It boils down to fearing aging and death which are very human fears which makes her semi sympathetic, but like kefka, her motives are too James bond villain.
@@finalfantasytheory i haven’t properly researched Kefka, but i can see where you are coming from and agree with you about her motivations and values. Furthermore, i suspect that a Final Fantasy Sequel, in the future, will have her and that one guy (i forget his name) who hides in his castle as antagonists in a story to a bigger conflict or trilogy. It will be dependent if Square Enix has the funding and desire to use them. It’s like they are building sequels around a bigger sequel. After COVID, it has left it’s mark and damage across all industries, and so I hope Square Enix can continue to produce more great titles and sequels.
One thing that has kept me thinking what is the value or motivations for the previous titles. If all the different FF sequels are connect but segregated by planes or realities, what is the end game? Are we going to see Final Fantasies version of a Muti-verse wars like stage 4 Marvel and Kang the Conqueror. Are all the previous titles going to be pulled into an even bigger? Are they connected?
As far as Ultimecia, I haven’t played FF8 for a good 20 years. If I had to guess what her motivation is, it’s to accumulate a large chunk of power in a cunning but risky approach, possibly what the character would believe to be in the short time with less effort. I get the impression she in an arms race for power. Instead of sitting around to increase her power, she passes it on and jumps to the future to caught it like a boomerang effect. Thats if it works in that manner. This is all theory crafting.
Wouldn't killing Edea break the time loop ?
Maybe. She could also just pass the powers to another. In truth, Edeas death would likely end garden and seed which would make Ultimecia win.
I love the video
Glad you liked it!!!
so... basically, ultimecia created an everlasting time loop to collect the power of witches until she becomes undefeatable? well, there are two little flaws in this theory: first, it's not ultimecia who makes squall return to the orphanage of the past, but rinoa. remember? rinoa made squall promise to meet her at the flower meadow behind the orphanage. thus, ultimecia's speech has nothing to do with the time loop. the second flaw are the witches we fight during the time travel. we fight three different types of witches and none of these fit into the story. I believe that the time loop (if there is one) is an accident and rather ultimecia's punishment. she is damned to re-live her defeat and rise over and over again.
the three different witches are from history. Remember, past present and future all collided into one.
@@finalfantasytheory if that's so, they should be mentioned anywhere and have names. but: neither do their outfits fit to their supposed represented time period nor do they have significant roles. what's even more strange: you fight six blue witches, four red-golden witches and one single caterpillar-like "mother witch". why do the two humanlike witches loop and the "mother-witch" doesn't? sorry, dude, no offense here, but something doesn't add up here.
@@phoneguy4637 I trust in FF8 there are in-universe history books which may mention some powerful evil sorceresses of the past who died under unknown circumstances. A simple logic points out their powers must be transfered to Rinoa after each single fight, which is not seen by graphical effects in the game.... maybe due to the physics in time-compressed realm. :)))
They just need Shantotto to defeat her for good.
You cant create something from nothing. When Ultimecia is sent into the past for the final time, and passes her powers to Edea, Edea does not have Ultimecia's power before this. When the events of the game unfold (again), That power gets passed on, but any power that was Already there due to the events of the loop will remain constant and not duplicate. The only way this might be possible is to say this isnt a loop, but a multiverse, and there is no indication from the game producers or the game itself that hints to that.
If what you said was true, as you said, she would reach a point where she would defeat Squall and enact he plans. But this would alter the events in her past, eliminating the very source of her power. You end up with a paradox. And as much as I'm sure Time Kompression (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) would achieve he goal, I don't think enacting a paradox is what she intended.
Unless it was a bootstrap paradox, in which case, "Such devastation, this was not my intention!"
New video part for this one comes out tomorrow!!! ruclips.net/video/JKD6Uo6Ako8/видео.htmlsi=nYQEWuT45_IHvEeX
there is no way to understand FF8's time paradox that could easily be explained so don't be discouraged if you can't do either
Nice theory but can you make a theory on how Ultimecia got GF the Griever on the final fight ? thanks
probably going to do a combo theory because the theory on that fits with an existing theory someone wants me to do!!!
@@finalfantasytheory thanks new subs here bro. cant wait for your theories
In the Japanese, she literally tells the party she pulls the ultimate GF from Squall's mind and who he believes is the strongest GF, which in his mind is Griever.
not bad idea
I don't get how Rinoa passed any of her power to Ultimecia or Adel. I remember the game well and RInoa doesn't die at all unless she dies during the fight with Ultimecia of course. So how is this power getting back to Ultimecia???
eventually when Rinoa dies in the future she has to power on to someone or else she can't rest. I assume she goes to their version of Hell.
@@finalfantasytheory But we as players don't see her death though. That's done off-game so to speak unless I'm missing something.
@@dragonprinceHP correct, but that is the lore of 8. That's my basis. I assume she dies an old age but passes her power on. The fact that Ultimecia is a sorceress in the future and Rinoa is the last standing sorceress in the present. Logically it would make sense that Rinoa has to pass that power on.
Yeah... BUT in the FF8 universe there shall be only one sorceress at a time. That's why Edea's powers are passed on to Rinoa, the nearest "vessel" available. It isn't possible that Edea became her powers from TWO different sorceress
Edea was a sorceress at the same time Adel was. Rinoa was also a sorceress at the same time Adel was
i don't think the power actually stacks infinitely. extra dimensional as a power? sure. but a god is of a higher dimension than just the mortal realm.
Nah! Your theory assumes that Ultimecia is Hyne and that his powers belong to her. They don't. Her going back, created a double edged sword. Idea realised and started seed to stop her, that's where the idea was. But prior to that, in her original version SEED didn't exist. Seed is the difference.
The lore of the game is clear, all sorceressess possess a portion of the half of Hyne's soul. That's why they can't die until they pass on their power.
If this is true we are doomed! DOOOOOMED!!
ultimecia and rinoa not beine the same person is what eventually makes ff8's story kinda stupid and the whole naming greivor thing completely pointless.
i still don't know why they wouldn't have jumped on that despite it not being their intentions - it adds something interesting to a ff most people dislike