Wonderful. Thank you both. One of the detriments of extreme non-duality on my psyche was the loss of my ability to trust myself, my own perspective, my own insights, my own unctions. The recovery has not been easy, but it’s happening. ❤❤
Please spread this kind of message more. I was suffering so much because of this. I wasted years trying to reach enlightenment. Trying to destroy my ego. Now I am recovering thanks be to God. Thank you for this video 🙏
Thank you for this! I'm so glad I found you and your work. I'll write you at some point about my experiences, but suffice it to say I needed your message, and I hope you can help a lot of people!
Great talk. As a former (quite hard-line) atheist who eventually found that to not work for me, I found Hans Wilhelm’s Life Explained videos are the best I’ve seen at explaining how it all works and what our true purpose is.
Neo-Non-Dual Issue Resolved Thank you both for helping me clear an issue I found with Neo-Advaita. As I listened to these people, I didn’t realize they were talking about “Neo” Advaita, and thought they were teaching Advaita. While I have no problem believing we are all connected, and we come from “The Consciousness”, or over-all spiritual awareness many people call God, but some of the Neo-Advaita teaching didn’t make sense. For example: But when I heard these Neo-Advaita people claim I don’t exist, and I don’t make any of the decisions in my life, I started to question my own reality. Then I heard them claim everything we experience is an illusion created for us by the “One who is pure awareness”, and it is all 100% pre-determined. They said there doesn’t exist good or bad behavior, because we don’t choose our behavior. They claim karma doesn’t exist, because nothing is really real. AAAArrrrfgggghhhhh! Thank you for being the voice of sanity. :-D on
Determinism and therefore no free will is actually science. Everything that has ever happened, is literally caused by everything else that has ever happened. No 'self' just means that who 'you' are just a combination of your genes, environment, conditioning etc. it's actually really simple - just a 'causal matrix' which really is what 'one' means. but some people find it frightening. Others find it liberating because it means unpleasant feelings like guilt, blame and shame are illusive.
This is a really lovely talk between 2 knowledgeable, empathetic people who, from my pov had not had the particular experience they were seeking. The experience is real, though.
hello! Glad you enjoyed it. It's very real you're right, and did have the experience I was seeking, over and over again. My experience of personal absence ended up being a double edged sword. It radically freed me and eased some forms of suffering but eventually I found myself rather trapped in the boundlessness that was liberating for a long time, and new forms of suffering were created. I ended up perceiving too much of this precious human life as simply trivial, and was unable to be in relationships and fully enjoy them, and eventually I wasn't willing to sacrifice the preciousness of inter-personal intimacy and for detached impersonal serenity. Ironically a path that is meant to annihilate separateness ends up leaving many of us feeling more isolated from others than ever, understandably! It was a conscious choice I had to make, but it hasn't been easy. I've found a new experience of unity that brings the transcendent into the immanent, and doesn't negate individuation, and instead opens up an entire new relationship with each other and the world that comes from experiencing ourselves as both separate and always one. It's made all of existence feel sacred and significant, and has inspired me to participate enthusiastically in this miraculous world! I talk about this in another conversation here if you're interested! bit.ly/3MKua7l wishing you well!
I jumped on seeing the subject of this video. Been waiting for years for it! Thank you Guy Smith and the beautiful woman whose name I cannot see anywhere in the text. "I hate that head-space now," says Guy, "I used to love it..." (paraphrasing) And who wouldn't want a philosophy that frees us from the burdens of the western mind?? which has a tendency to fall in love with philosophies from foreign (and much older) cultures. And to pluck what looks most juicy, as though one could understand the depths of eons-old wisdom in a sitting! Dis-illusion is inevitable. As for myself, "consider the source" - a man on a rug in a sterile apartment in LA... the seductive gentle voice, the words that promise so much. Everything I need is in my own back yard, including wisdom that runs with the land where I am now rooted. It is rich with LIFE. The truths of Advaita Vendanta can co-exist with the realities of living in a sensual body on Earth. Firsts things first.
Isn't in ironic how in the attempt to be free from the Western mentality of consumerism, for example, it's being perpetuated by the White & privileged who are commodifying non-Western, non-white traditions, cherry picking the aspects that can be marketed as "instant enlightenment"? We've kept the instant gratification, quick fix Western mentality fully intact, and seeing the consequences of it which at it's worst has been deadly.
@@thegloriousbothand"White"? I wasn't aware people could be so simply defined by the color of their skin, or that "White" was a proper noun that required capitalization. Privileged?? So you would say people born into a world of consumerism and convenience have a privilege over people who are born into cultures that value other things more highly than material wealth and status?? These categorizations do not seem to come from a "spiritual" place.
So pleased to have found the grace of Oneness and deep Present faaaar away from books and concepts, systems and dogma. It came without searching; in times of raw vulnerability facing death of a beloved. Teaching me in every moment how to master the Embodiment of the Spirit/Inscention. How to live fully open the stream of life that i am. How to deal with reactivity, how to patiently dance with parts of the separated mind and the free nature of the expanded Spirit. Never thought that this would be my new true self:-)coming from the world of sport and journalism:-). But when the call comes it comes.💚Thank you for Being.
I love this discussion. I have been contemplating similar lately. Instead of one or the other, or seeking an "end" of seeking, I see it more of cyclicly moving back and forth between the oneness and the human experiencing, at least for this phase of my life.The real end of seeking or interacting with the earth, when my mission of learning is complete and I lack desire to create and entangle, I imagine leaving into the void, or staying and dedicating time to service. my cycle is like seek, be, flow, experience, contemplate, seek, be, flow, experience, contemplate, etc, etc.its like if you were to leave, you are done creating, which is a gift you were given to use.
In my experience what’s become true and possible is experiencing oneness and individuality simultaneously , oneness need not and in my view ought not to thrust us out of the human experience but make it more precious, a real expression of the universe!
@@thegloriousbothand thanks. i have yet to experience the oneness (in this lifetime anyhow) I have imagined it existing in meditation like formless so interesting to hear it can extend to individuality and interacting with others in form.
Seems to me that the neo-advaita message cancels itself out. I mean, why would someone pay to hear Tony Parsons or Jim Newman tell them over and over and over and over (and over and over!) again that 'It's just what's happening, man!' ? I mean, who gives a fuck? I'd rather dance or have some other creative fun!
That whole "Nobody has come to listen to a talk by nobody" thing, and they clearly believe they are being profound when they say it. All I think is, "Well, why are you telling us, then?!"
More than anything else, nonduality is a global presence without any center. Now there are hubs of activity, groups, ashrams, meetups, programs, etc., and each hub has a center and an organization. Some hubs are good, some suck. But the whole of all the hubs and people communicating about nonduality has no center. Also, the global presence is self-correcting as this video demonstrates. You guys are still part of the nonduality global presence because you're communicating about nonduality. That's how I see nonduality: as a culture, a community, a social layer, a global presence. The "I'm enlightened, you're not" disposition is not what the global presence is all about though it is included and could even be beneficial to people at some point in their life. Thanks for you work.
Very interesting, loved the talk. I guess I've been lucky to find "non-dual" teachers who i think would agree with everything in the video. And for me, the more I've meditated and explored the self, the sense of self has actually gotten stronger which just isn't accounted for or discussed in neo advaita.
Jessica, I'm very thankful for this channel and the interviews you're doing. From my experience which many guru's would say does not and never did exist, this all is a breath of fresh air to talk about the questions we have without just saying it's a story over and over again :) Avoiding, denying, lack of empathy or escaping by diving into neo-advaita as the ultimate is quite misleading. One guru said suffering is not even real. It's not real, until it's your real. These guru's once they go through real suffering will have to change their perspective or not. Either way, something may or may not be learned :) Depending on where we all live being threatened or being in real fights can happen. I myself was in the martial arts and have been in fights, and I did not start it, but real life happens and you are either prepared or not. In nonduality, they say it's just a happening. Like getting sucker punched on a NYC street and laying knocked out on the ground is just a happening. Again, once it happens to those who are into neo-advaita they may or may not question it all. The main thing we all may need to do is question the beliefs we have and the ones we take on from other countries. Honestly, what the hell do we all really believe without being told what to believe or this or that belief is the best one? Each one of us is influenced by our current environment, therefore we are all conditioned, and those of us who question that conditioning, habits and so on, may see through it or continue being deceived. Jessica, I'm presenting one of my favorite author's below with a quote that is quite thought provoking ... “For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.” ― Charles Bukowski
Beautiful conversation! This is where I'm heading recently....back to myself without the need for my annihilation. It's o.k. to be o.k. and not need other's opinions about how that should look.
This has been a truly remarkable interview, thank you both! I remember watching Guy years ago back when I had a spontaneous awakening, and I was wondering where he went. I never saw the lovely interviewer before but I loved everything she said here. The calm and intelligent discussion was food for my soul. I too am having a dissonance with radical non-duality and find myself slowly becoming a normal person again. Lol. I loved what Guy said about true freedom is being you - me - us - that is simply beautiful. I sort of have a curiosity - what do you guys think about the non dual teachers who became Law of Attraction/Assumption teachers? I used to think that non-duality is the antithesis of manifestation, but I find such correlation fascinating.
Hello friend! It's wonderful to hear about your trajectory leading you back to your fully human self :) I think there's a really fascinating intersection between de-realizing non-dual teachings and LOA, and it can be very powerful too. I went through a phase of experiencing everything as a dream within my own consciousness (a la Nisargadatta) and finding that this unlocked a powerful way to sort of "create my own reality" as if I was living in a lucid dream. It was an in between stage where I was still viewing the self/world as illusory but began valuing being engaged in and participating in the dream. It was a wild time, and was both personally empowering and unlocked the ability to form healthier habits but at the same time would slip into grandiosity, solipsism, nihilism, etc. I've simply found that when reality is merely a dream, an illusion, and we're all just fictional characters i.e. anything less than really happening, it eventually kills my motivation, sense of significance to things etc. and I just don't want it anymore, even though it can be radically freeing and remove so many mentally influenced obstacles....it's kind of like ok I feel the freedom to do anything I want...wow this is f*cking incredible!......not too long after....sh*t, now that all of this isn't actually real and just a projection, I don't really care to participate much anymore....I'm just going to sit here and be the supraconsciousness that everything is within.....that was utterly profound....and highly disfunctional....now I'm rambling :) I will reply to your email now that I just saw and maybe we can talk about it more together :)
@@thegloriousbothand fascinating! Thank you for your magnificent response, it gave me chills! For one, I can totally relate with the feeling of not being interested in the creation of one’s reality after the realization that it is merely a dream. Beautifully said. And also, I am deeply impressed with your command of your language and your ability to convey your thoughts. English is my second language and I moved as an adult (at 22 years old) to Connecticut and I only spoke Spanish, so I’m always fascinated by good grammar and vocabulary. I’m looking forward to read your email, and once again, thank you for your kind reply. Have a wonderful day! Rosie
'Trapped in heaven.' Yes - there's no nuance there. I wasn't fully absorbed in the non-dual space. I met some scary practitioners. I knew intuitively to walk my own way. Thank you for an interesting conversation. I've found some deeply intuitive teachers amongst traditional Therevardan monastic who mention 'the foreground' and 'the background.' I've found their perspectives both deeply sophisticated and fresh.
One of the teachers who led me towards the both/and, Jason Shulman pointed me towards a reality in which foreground and background come together into the same plane and are a single thing!
@@thegloriousbothand That sounds like the real and authentic non-duality. Also, that term has possibly outlived it's usefulness, as it so easily turns into a mind game...
Sounds like there is nothing good about neo-advaita......sounds a bit like a charicature of it....but then again when I listen to people like Mooji I feel it's vedanta for third graders....... then there is Buddhism lite which sees meditation as the cure to everything under the sun. The quality of teachers seems indeed poor. Listen to the nondual teacher Lisa Cairnes and I think this person is almost totally inarticulate. Others are more articulate but as you rightly point out misintepret of misuse the teachings.......the real deal of eastern teachings for liberation, like Buddhism ....are not for the faint of heart and one should avoid them unless one is serious about liberation. Listening to you two I am not quite sure what your defintion of liberation is....or if you feel there is such a thing. My understanding of Buddhism is that liberation consists of the realization of the unreality of a self as executive decision maker and the emptiness of all phenomenon. And that such as realization (liberation) is usually preceeded with terror of death and the fear of insanity. And as you point out, actual cases of mental breakdown rather than break through are entirely possible.
Hi Steven! These are wonderful nuanced insights. We didn't really go into our current personal relationship with spirituality and how we relate to the concept of "Liberation," you're right. Don't worry, those conversations will be coming! We wanted this one to focus mainly on the troubling dynamics of the understandably alluring yet too often denigrating Western "non-dual" scene, from the perspective of two people who were once enthusiastically immersed in it, and who were deeply cut by its' double edged sword. We should pick back up our penpal-ship soon!
Thanks for posting this interview, I feel it will be helpful to so many people whose heads and hearts have been messed up and are struggling to put them back together. Just because people are passionate in their belief system it doesn't make them right or the truth. That is why we have guys flying planes into skyscrapers others drinking the koolaid and thousands of years of history of wars where God is always on our side. Advaita is another belief system, people who are really into it will deny that but many people believe their particular faith is the only true way.
This is so poignantly expressed: "whose heads and hearts have been messed up and are struggling to put them back together." Thank you so much for sharing this!
I have experienced much of what you describe coming from a Vajrayana Buddhist experience. Not to say that I didn't get a lot out of the experience, but it was very difficult to recover from the negative issues that also accompanied the experience
Thanks for sharing that, it's really important, as a lot of the issues we touch on here are not at all exclusive to neo-advaita. I would actually say that neo-advaita falls under a greater umbrella category that includes all degrees of self-negating non-dual/liberation paradigms, and even that neo-advaita is a spectrum of teachings that often include elements of Advaita + strands of Buddhism as well, especially Tibetan & Zen Buddhism. I was influenced by a mash-up of all of these.
Thank you! I was not buying into non-duality, but I was wondering if something was wrong with me because I was not comfortable with non-duality. I love living in concert with spirit, and I love living in concert with my humanity.
definitely nothing wrong with you!! but the rhetoric has a strong pattern of making people feel that way - lots of subtle and overt shaming/pressuring/judging of those who have hesitations about it 😤 I too love the melody of spirit and humanity in concert, not in discordance!!
It is very pretentious and I feel that many people with a weak grasp or command of reality embrace "non duality' as a form of cope and escapism from themselves
I think people who struggle with Non duality (like I did too at one point) are people who took the words/concepts too literally and seriously and just built a new more unhealthy identity around non dual concepts. Non dual concepts aren't supposed to be taken on as beliefs, and that's where everyone (atleast most people) go wrong. Non dual isn't serious, it's about embracing every essence of life. Every emotion every sensation.
Hi there, thanks for replying. from everything I've experienced, witnessed, and learned, I I do see this as a common misconception - that adverse effects within non-dual context are always a result of clinging to beliefs and not having direct experience/losing their sense of self. There's an abundance of evidence throughout history, and in our current times, that those who have profoundly positive *experiential* shifts in perception, and do indeed lose a personal sense of self, from non-dual teachings, often experience adverse effects, often in tandem with positive ones - and many of them are quite different from negative effects that can come just from having beliefs and not experiences, such as memory issues, disassociation, loss of motivation, difficulty keeping a job to ensure financial stability, trouble with responsibly fulfilling roles such as being an engaged parent, varying levels of impaired functioning, etc. It's important in my view, not to reduce all struggles to doing something wrong, as it prevents a balanced understanding of what one should be prepared for, what to take into consideration when deciding to engage with this kind of pathway, and what those teaching it would be wise to understand and make known in a respectful, open way. You might find this research study on unexpected side effects of losing one's sense of self in an ND context eye-opening! digitalcommons.ciis.edu/advance-archive/60/.....I would also challenge you to acknowledge that while we can have what gets referred to as "direct experience" that beliefs point to, we are still taking on new beliefs, whether clinging to them or not. I don't mean this in a rude way, but just want to point out that much of your reply included belief statements. I don't see that as a problem, it just feels important to be clear that non-dual teachings revolve around a system of beliefs AND experiences they can point us to. The experience doesn't eradicate belief, even if you aren't consciously thinking them or saying them out loud. which again isn't a negative thing , unless you are aligned with beliefs that having beliefs is a problem/impediment...
I came across this channel and agree with a lot of the conversation. I’m going to provide an opinion and I do not expect anyone to agree with this at all. It’s just my way of understanding the spiritual pathless path. In my experience, even within a non dual awareness the existence of a spirit is absolutely present. There is no separate self but there is absolutely a presence watching. Even people who claim to have had a no self shift has awareness, or they would not be able to function. Long story short, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to teach someone they do not exist. Enlightenment can and will still be a possibility without these ridiculous and dangerous ways of teaching. The only thing that does not exist is the persons name. That is indeed not who we are. In that sense you do not exist. This is just an opinion. It holds no judgement if anyone chooses to disagree. Enlightenment can absolutely be reached without pushing people off the edge and telling them they never existed. That type of teaching should be prosecuted when someone is hurt over this ridiculous way of pointing to truth.
Hi! it sounds like your view is that we don’t exist as anything other than an impersonal, amorphous witnessing presence and that what concerns you is unskillful, dangerous delivery styles and language used to communicate this view in circles like neo-advaita? Just curious to understand!
@@thegloriousbothand exactly my experience and exactly what was meant by my comment. ❤️ we exist as life itself. As pure awareness. Formless spirit taking the shape of everything.
Does a whirlpool "exist"? Is a whirlpool a thing? What do you call a "thing" that is only a temporary configuration of mass and energy? Is it a "thing" or just a snapshot of an arrangement of mass and energy in a temporary configuration? Is a mountain a mountain, or just a temporary configuration of rock? Is a rock a rock or just a temporary configuration of sand? Is a grain of sand a grain of sand or is it a temporary configuration of silicon and oxygen atoms? Is a silicon atom a silicon atom or just a temporary comfiguration of protons, neutrons, and electrons? So do you exist? What is meant by the word "exist" or pointing that you don't exist? Is it not just illustrating that you are not a "thing" because in each instant, your temporary configuration is changing and never permanent? Is an ocean a thing, or is it just water? Do you see how there are no things at all and that all separation and categorization is indeed just an activity of mind and not something that maps actual reality? Can even say for sure a universe exists "out there" when we know everything we see, hear, smell, and touch are responses to nervous stimuli that are created by the interactions of trillions of neurons?? In short, we mistake the "maps" that are created by the activity in our brains for the "territory" of "external reality", which in truth we can say nothing about.
We loose awareness when under anesthesia though. That's what puzzles me. If there's a 'spirit' or 'pure awareness' in us that isn't our senses, thoughts or emotions, then it would stay aware when under anesthesia.
and yes!!!! y’all are spot on in the fact that the same insecurity that drives one towards dogmatic non duality for relief, and fir a time it can be a relief, but yes then one’s insecurities are triggered waiting to be lucky enough to wake up!!! it reinforces the same set up. I mean to the credit of some neo Advaita teachers they will say I don’t know anything you don’t know etc. etc. etc. but the fact that they won’t meet you where you are, because they think you don’t exist, to me that inability or lack of desire to meet you and sit with you right where you are is setting up division. OK I’ll stop rambling! I think it’s because I’m a mother of two children that I see firsthand every single day how important it is to meet people where they are. ❤️
Non duality has become a business providing a comfortable life for the new priests. Money changes everything. You can now go on the Internet and get a non dual guide for $100 to $200 an hour. I’m going back to traditional Buddhism and modesty.
“Offended monk” who leaves the world because he didn’t get what he wanted in the world and than starts claiming that he transcended the world but deep down he knows it’s a lie.
Hi, your video came on my RUclips feed. I do self-inquiry and find it brings relief for me from suffering. However I also do somatic therapy and personal work. I thought the other day, the c reason I wanted to “depersonalise “ is because so much of the conversation and media and world is subtly fear-based so it’s no wonder people want to unplug from it. I do that at times when I’m overwhelmed and then try to come back into my body and a personal self in a more uplifted way. This seems to be the process for me. I don’t think non-duality is bad but I think maybe it’s part of evolution - detach from personal self when in negative vibe, and then come back in with a more uplifted beliefs and then that happens again and so we can spiral into more positive being. Not sure if I’m explaining that well but that’s how I see it.
Hello! Thanks for sharing this. I like the emphasis on returning, more uplifted and positively engaged. Much of non-dual teachings that are popular today teach a permanent not just detachment but permanent loss of one's personal sense of self. Something that does happen for many people is that they find themselves stuck in either a detachment mode or totally impersonalized mode, and struggle to come back into the personal self and engage fully from selfhood, and part of this is due to teachings that don't emphasize that return/let's say being able to toggle back and forth, since they teach any "going back" the personal as going back into delusion, ignorance, and endless suffering. So this is one dynamic that is really causing people suffering and damage. It would be amazing to see more of a shift towards what you are describing - a sort of constructive detachment that can give us insights into how to live a healthier, more positive personal life, but there'd need to be a major shift in the common "non-duality" paradigm of permanent radical detachment from/disintegration of the personhood. Again, thank you for lending your balanced view :)
I think this is great. I got into non duality after a physical health issue. I do get it - my dad used to go on about maya and lilla. I have found it helpful to the extent that i now dont take everything personslly i look and see if the other person is having a bad day etc. But i agree we shouldnt use it to ignore thikgs that we can do something about. And also i dont like the apathetic element it can come a cross uncaring. But its a balance cos ive worn myseof out being too caring. I listen to my body now. I have gone bavk to my Christian roots with Christian mystics. And simone de beauvoir says " my philosophy must be from life itself ". I read that when i was 18. And recently understand now im 55 that my body is my truth abd staying healthy is important. Non duality is a great but you have to look at the time it developed in historically i think. We need to look after ourselves too. It needs to be applied with great care because as madonna sings we are living in a material world. Itvmay be something or nothing but theyvare both just words, pointers. Right off for a massage now!
turbo charges the inner troll!!! i love that. i mean , it got to a point where i could not have a single thought without the troll chastising me! for having a thought!!🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
my understanding is that yoga traditionally was meant as a means to an end of enlightenment defined as the extinguishment of the self / the cycle of rebirth
@@thegloriousbothand in real non duality subject and object, preceiver and preceived are one. Consciouness and object of consciousness is just two side of the same coin. Neoadvaita separate subject and object, therefore that is duality not nonduality
there's an individual by the name of Kim Michaels who runs a youtube channel and has only 1.6k followers, irrelevant from that he has a video titled "Non-duality 3. The Nonsense of Non-self" and it's about 44 minutes long. You want to know what it really is, The ultimate best explanation how non duality/duality truly works and what It truly is. The absolute best of the best explanation I've ever came across on these platforms. The dude has the knowledge!
hopefully not another guy proclaiming to know the "ultimate" truth - this is what I needed to move away from as this kind of authoritarianism became a stranglehold on my perception.
Interesting, but I got a bit lost in your discussion. I am happy being aware of my natural state, the I am. It's always there and beyond definition. My refuge. No more searching. Peace. Bliss. 😌
I find much of the versions of Nonduality that are popular today teach expanding one’s view in an imbalanced, extreme way, where healthy boundaries are denied/discouraged to an unhealthy point, and the particularities within an expanded view are either denied, illusorized or trivialized
Guy's reasons for not maintaining a web site --- yes yes yes!! the best spiritual teachers and people I know work one on one and have no time or interest in promoting themselves. Not to put down the others at all but these i love most. We sit on the porch... there are clouds, birds, and oh yes! dig those post holes before the sun is too hot.
wonderful comment, thank you Constance! I'm sitting in the sun right now, and over-heating :) the commodification and mis/appropriation of foreign traditions is quite a double edged sword with so many unintended harmful consequences. I just read this article interestingly, called "The Whiteness of The Spiritual but Not Religious" which talks about this topic and it's so fascinating. Maybe you'll like it canopyforum.org/2020/09/24/representation-and-whiteness-among-the-spiritual-but-not-religious/ She talks about White commodification of Hinduism
I’m sad that there is so many that turn non-duality into “you have no free will”. I arrived through my own gnosis in Science! Crazy, I know. But hear me out. It’s both. You are real. It is real. Stop dividing “real”. Programming. Ideas. Words. Images are more accurate, and hold much, much more information.
Yes, it feels most accurate that there are things we do not/cannot control, as well as things that we can, and that we certainly have meaningful choice, and what a precious thing that is!
Spirituality begins from the assumption of duality. It is always 'our' fault. The Spiritual person says, 'I have had everything this life can offer and I am still not happy.'
That is one perspective of what a "spiritual person" is. There's a vast multitude of what "spiritual" means to different folks. Non-duality that I followed seems so dogmatic to me in terms of claiming what "True" spirituality is. Or what a "truly" spiritual person is.(While also insisting there is no person) I came to find this extremely limiting and authoritarian. It also sounds like you're denying duality, as I once did. I humbly suggest considering whether negating multiplicity in order to affirm oneness is itself either/or dualism. From a both/and perspective, seemingly opposite poles are not mutually exclusive, but inter-dependent...co-arising. Also, if one has "experienced all that life has to offer" (is that really possible?) and is still not happy, another option is to cultivate greater ability to savor the seemingly "mundane" as utterly precious, and thereby cut through habituation to the miraculous that fuels the hungry ghost syndrome!
@@thegloriousbothand I think you might give a little more consideration to what I said about being 'spiritual'. The spiritual seeker is always on a quest to find 'something else.' They think that something is missing. They are waiting for something to happen. They are dissatisfied with the way things are. They are looking for a better experience. There are of course innumerable ways in which the spiritual person tries to satisfy these desires. Be it Faith, Religion, Yoga, Meditation or any number of 'Practices'. It all stems from a sense of lack. That is a consequence of assuming separation. The sense of separation is what brings about duality. There is no separation really. It is only an appearance. There is only what is. What is, includes everything that appears to be happening and therefore, it includes me and you. We are the Way it Is. We are This. There is no separation. No one is on a journey to find something that is missing. There is nothing missing. Nothing needs to happen for this to be what is happening already. It is not a reward for good behaviour or hard work. This is not trying to become something else. It is as it is.
@@thegloriousbothandWell said, a lot of contradictions in the whole concept, and then the fact that it's apparently "not a concept". It's not anything! It's really just too aloof and nebulous to be anything useful and as an idea it doesn't strengthen anyone like truly facing yourself and overcoming yourself does, rather, it dissassociates them and regresses them while convincing them they are enlightened.
It’s interesting to me that some Neo teachers present themselves under the guise of “Science and Non-Duality”, and yet there very dogmatic presentation precludes scientific analysis (such as Rupert Spira and Depok Chopra). I do believe though that science, when applied to an analysis of non-duality will help in the evolution of our understanding. Discussions like this are very important as part of that evolution. What I want, and hope for is Truth. Is there such a thing? Is Reality knowable?
Yes, I find it fascinating when I see material reductionists & spiritual reductionists teaming up against the reality of the self. One reducing it to the material, the other to immaterial. Truth - I'm inclined these days to veer away from "ultimate" truth paradigms, and instead decide what feels most compelling, inspires qualities/behavior that I feel support how I want to live and want to see society and evolution go towards....
The Spiritual person begins from the assumption of duality. He or she is dissatisfied with life. Something always seems to be missing. They assume that they are at fault in some way. They say, I have had everything this life can offer and I am still not happy. It must be my fault. To correct this sense of lack, there are no end of 'teachers' who will advocate some kind of 'practice' which will help. The practice will help to get something or get somewhere. Spiritual practice is the endless quest for 'something else.' It is the search for 'something else.' In other words it is the quest for more separation. It is the appearance of awareness and consciousness which gives the appearance of separation in the first place. Therefore Spirituality is the attempt to cure the ills of separation with more separation. The Spiritual person says, that they are too worldly. They need to be more moral or more pure. They need to find God's Will. they need to find pure faith or a higher dimension or some such nonsense. More separation leads to more separation. Awareness is separation. Consciousness is separation. Meditation is separation. Spiritual practice is separation. Monasticism is separation. Non duality says there is no separation. There is only what is. There is no separation. There is not two. This is empty but it is also full. It is empty fullness. It is the relative absolute. It is what is and what isn't. People suffer because they think there is a sense of lack when there is none. Nothing is missing from all there is. What is, is not trying to become something else. It is as it is.
When, as you said, "nothing is missing from all there is," why are you excluding anything? For nothing to be missing, nothing can be excluded. "A sense of lack when there is none." Even a sense of lack is included in all there is. Wholeness doesn't even require negating broken-ness, if it is fully whole. Separateness and oneness, not mutually exclusive, that's a dualistic, either/or fallacy, as I see it, which I used to hold. I'm comfortable with the description of a "oneness of multiplicity." And multiplicity is so very beautiful, precious and a sacred element of "all that is!"
@@thegloriousbothand I did not really understand your Post? I am not excluding anything. This or the Way it Is, is totally Free. It does not have to be one way or another. It is no - thing or NOTHING and yet it appears as everything. It is nothing and everything simultaneously. Space is nothing appearing as everything and so is Time. This is therefore infinite. You cannot get closer to it or further away from it.
I started out with Neo Advaita, but soon switched over to a study/immersion into Advaita Vedanta of Shankara/ Upanishads. Neo Advaita just didn’t make any sense to me.
friend, I wanted to humbly point out again that all of your comments have included perspectives, beliefs, opinions, whether or not they are based on your own experience, these are still interpretations that of those experiences, based on your unique perspective. that's okay, but I thought it would be helpful to point that out
you are using the yin/yang symbol. what does it mean to you? It doesn't represent a negation of separateness, but actually the opposite of that. It's a symbol of interdependent opposites, and represents that "all things in the universe exist as inseparable and contradictory opposites." as in, oneness and separateness, the personal and the universe, parts and the whole, etc. It points to oneness and separateness or let's say the one and the many as complimentary not contradictory. Thoughts?
@@thegloriousbothand you pretty much said it all. My understanding of yin yang comes from Alan Watts on the polarity of yin yang. ☯ It’s a good listen 😁
And "cigarettes can be bad for your health/kill you, if your lungs aren't resilient!" This is a radical over-simplification of the complexities discussed, which include toxic cult-like dynamics in a new-age spiritual movement where spiritualized mental illness, exploiting the vulnerable, and thinly veiled narcissistic abuse runs rampant. Perhaps you would find the book The Guru Papers enlightening. Highly recommended.
@@thegloriousbothand the radical non duality speakers all say the same thing. There is no free will. The individual is an illusion. Nothing is separate. ☯ The non duality teachers all say different things and turn it into a spiritual quest, which is bullshit! 😂☯
From brilliance to working class muddle in 20 short years. His old book is still great, though. It’s a shame with the den of modern culture can do to a great mind .
@@advaitawho apparently true? are you saying that what you're putting forth is apparently true, as in double-stating that it is true? Are you saying that it's apparently true as in it's self-evident and therefore unquestionable? what does it really mean...
Non-duality is NOT a dogma, rule set or system of beliefs. It’s a term used to describe the disillusion of the personal self. It’s after-the-fact. You’re arguing against something that is told to you as it is, by those who are “experiencing” it that way. You’ve built up a phony construct based on a failed understanding of non-duality. The people I’ve seen who are truly awake are so joyous and free, and totally unphasable it’s just astonishing to see you ascribe these concepts to something that is the opposite of a concept.
Actually, there's a wide range of paradigms, traditions, people that describe themselves as "non-dual", each with different perspectives on what it points to, and many of them have little or nothing to do with the dissolution of the personal self. I used to see it as you do, but not anymore. I want to point something out that I realized - what you just said is squarely dogmatic - you said that there are people who experience reality a certain way, and the way they interpret it (what it's told me to me as) is "the way it is" - meaning that they believe that because they experienced reality in a certain way (a way that I used to), it is automatically "absolute" truth. There's another possibility here - what we're experiencing, is a real way to experience/perceive reality, out of many ways humans can do so, that's it. The interpretations of those experiences might or might not be "the truth" but it's authoritarian to suggest that the way you perceive, and what you conclude about reality = the unquestionable truth, and anyone who questions it is ignorant and wrong. And I want to also add that I never ever want to be "unphaseable" again. That felt utterly freeing at first, and then ultimately de-humanizing. I want to feel touched and move by this bittersweet life, and the full range of fully aliveness, emotions and all, not indifferent, dis-effected etc. I no longer see such a thing as an ideal, and definitely not a "spiritual" ideal!
you might find something of value in this conversation with a guy who used to teach non-dual "ultimate" "truth" pointers ruclips.net/video/DonsKYcp94w/видео.htmlsi=ctOn7EUA6IFXKR6J
also, to your suggestion that I didn't "get it," I only have this youtube channel because I went so deeply into my own dissolution, for several years, and experienced it eventually as a double-edged sword. My understandings about all of it have changed, but I used to understand it the way you describe understanding it.
there's no consensus on free will, and a lot of the studies people point to, when you look into them, have been debunked, or at least shown to be non-conclusive in the ways they claim to be. if we smash our heads together, i guarantee you will feel our separateness, lol!
@@thegloriousbothand the science and psychology studies into free will show that free will is an afterthought. And, that it is better for a person’s well being to believe they have complete free Will…this is not the case! You must have read different studies to me! 🤔🤷♂☯
@@advaitawho I think one of the major studies you're talking about is Libet's. I used to find that study about afterthought compelling, but then I found this other interpretation of what may be happening, and definitely worth taking into account www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/09/free-will-bereitschaftspotential/597736/
Who said that there’s nothing you can do? It’s that there’s no one to do anything…yet things still appear to happen. ☯ There is plenty to apparently do. 😂
"there's nothing to do" and "no one to do it" is a very common message. some say what you just said above, but the fact remains that the whole path taught, led to such a radical kind of detached serenity that I got to a point that I had no motivation to do anything, and could literally have just sat on a bench and not gotten up again for the rest of my life. Maybe that sounds ideal to some people, but I'd say be very careful what you wish for.
it seems like what you're calling non-duality is conditional on a lot of things, like there being no free will, the self and separateness being an illusion, and is based heavily on excluding things from reality, not including. for me non-duality points to a unity of opposites, not the negation of one end of an inter-dependent polarity.
@@thegloriousbothand no free will is not a condition, it is a symptom of being human! You already have no free will with or without the knowing of it. 🤔☯ Separateness is not an illusion, it is apparent! The only illusion is the individual. The neti, neti approach is not what I’m talking about. There is no separation…therefore a unity, as you say, is all there is. 😁
@@advaitawho you're claiming that these are unquestionable truths, that most would agree are not conclusive - and that whether or not we have free will is not provable in the end. You are here again stating things that you believe are true, when you've also said there's no truth. Do you see that? How could there be unity with nothing to unify?
Hi there, yes I did, I found it felt utterly liberating in the beginning, but it was a kind of honeymoon phase, as while I'd gained this access to what felt like boundless serenity, I'd eventually found I'd become a rather zombified, lobotomized, vacuous empty shell who had extinguished her soul in exchange for a kind of freedom that required losing so much of my precious humanity. I discovered it had been a kind of deal with the devil, indeed. And also, it's really not that we no longer have a personal story, it's more like we forget it, we've detached it from it radically and aren't putting our attention it...but our history is still there to be described at any moment. And do we really stop having beliefs? For one, there's the belief that we have no beliefs...that it's better to not have beliefs or a personal story, it's a belief that there is no free will, that there is no self, even if these convictions are based on something we call "direct experience," all of these things we say are interpretations drawn from them. I point this out humbly, that most of your comments here include beliefs, and perspectives (which I don't see as a bad thing!) - "there are no conditions to nonduality" "there is no free will" etc. I ended up deciding that I don't need to stop having beliefs, but to change how I relate to my beliefs, and hold healthier, less limiting ones!
Neo-advaita as a name is actually not correct. It is more a neo-buddhism cloaked in the language of vedanta. Except in buddhism practise is important, but the directness of advaita is combined with the emptiness of self. Only the emptiness of neo advaita is not empty ittself, but full of emptiness. Forms are then emptiness forming. The fullness of emptiness gives the appearance of fullness of form, but is according to neo advaita actually empty. However any criticism on this will be denied as it is coming from an idea of knowing, therefore false. If you say that actually there is in neo advaita a form of knowing cloaked in not knowing, you get a full rejection, as they ‘know’ that knowing is just an appearance. That is why they get stuck, end up in a form of nihilism and reject any form of knowing and perspective.
When i listen to a neo advaita talk it is said there is nothing to hold onto to. That is exactly what they do, they hold on to nothing. Everything just appears, but actually there is just nothing. So they subtly hold on to nothingness ittself and manifestation is reduced to it. It is literally nothing as they say it, they give clues how they look at it. As nothing can be done with nothingness there is nothing that can be done. The nothing actually is being ‘done’. When this is understood it means nothing is really understood, as nothing is understood, it is conceptualised as nothing but telling this tot a neo advaita teacher this will be denied, as they will say nothing really can be known. In it is hidden that nothing is known, the nothing becomes a knowing. It becomes a hide and seek, but they declare there is nothing that can be found. End of discussion. It is a shapeshifting of the word nothing. They use it in way that is convenient for them at that moment. So they can always slip out of any attack, and even if you point it out, they just like to make you look ridiculous. That the ego just cannot take this message or something.
I relate to neo-advaita as a mash-up of Eastern self-negating teachings, blended into a new-age offering based on the Buddhist "no-self" doctrine and Advaita's "Self" as pure awareness...for me, when I say I was immersed in "neo-advaita" it was a combo of elements of zen buddhism, tibetan buddhism, as well as advaita vedanta, particularly neo-vedanta/contemporary advaita a la Ramana Maharshi & Nisargadatta Maharaj. But yes, the term is limiting and I prefer to say something more like "self-negating non-duality" as an umbrella term. And yeah, sounds like you're pointing to the dogmatism in "ultimate truth" paradigms claiming knowledge of another order that cannot be touched by the rational mind. Yet, it's always the rational mind itself making such claims, which is a major blind spot that I myself had in the past.
@@thegloriousbothand That is correct, however i would not confuse the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj with the western modern neo advaita. These teachers do actually offer a practise and acknowledge the sense of knowing.
There are definitely differences, you are right. Though there are core overlaps - I would say that the core of the teachings - radical denial of the person, for example - while there are huge contextual differences that are important to acknowledge, and some of them lead to danger when stripped away. My main concern with "neo-advaita" is the indiscriminate dissemination to the general public as a panacea. If this weren't happening there'd be no need for spreading awareness about the dangers, as the teachings would only have been reached by a tiny fraction of folks, rather than youtube being over-run with videos called YOU ARE NOT A PERSON. Imagine Ramana Maharshi walking the streets shouting this, lol.
@@thegloriousbothand the real problem with neo-advaita is that it seems to be fit for the lazy western person. Nothing to do, nothing to grasp and you reached the essence of reality. Which teachings of Ramana and Nisargadatta requires much work, which is usually to much to ask. But you have to understand that these people were ingrained in Hindu culture. They knew what was in the scriptures, westerners therefore need to take up the study of these scriptures as it not always clear in their writings. You usually need a context for those teachings.
Non-duality is really not for the faint of heart. It seems you just weren't mature or mentally resilient enough to accept it but criticising its teachings because you weren't adequately prepared is a little petulant. I agree that some in the community are corrupt but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater ..
Non-dual paths that welcome suffering as a price to pay for participating fully in the human experience as a personal expression of Being are not for the faint of heart either.
From what I have seen the type that love non duality are the faintest of all hearts. These people don't even have a single solid opinion or grasp on reality. They couldn't tell you what a woman or a man is but they have the gaul to fancy themselves as teachers or gurus of "enlightenment". It's embarrassing. They really are like children.
I'm also curious, what would constitute being adequately prepared? the non-dual teachings that are popular today tout the fact that they require zero preparation whatsoever...meaning, the majority of folks drawn into these teachings are not prepared in any way...so please do share what you think the teachers should be explaining to their followers is essential if one is to be prepared?
"Neo-Advaita", a stupid concept as it means "new not-two", utter nonsense. Besides, advaita, nonduality isn't a technique, a means to reach something or somewhere, isn't a way to get something, it is not something you can do, practice, it is just an expression of life, as anything else, it is life living itself, this is it, whether you like it or not, because that is it too. But as humans we tend to transform anything into something we can use, possess. How to use "no-thing"? What is the meaning of life? The meaning of life is... being... or the meaning you give to it. Discarding nonduality is as nonsensical as praising or promoting or teaching it.
Dear Glorious Both-And and Tim, Re mental suffering Suffering is a thought/concept . These thoughts come and go but that which is aware of thoughts is not the thoughts. We can recognize and abide in awareness-- to be aware knowingly. I am aware and know that I am aware that I am aware. The ignorance remains but the illusion disappears. The clearest pointing, narrative, storytelling, for me is from Rupert Spira. (Bernardo Kastrup) Let's celebrate our shared being instead of suffering ideas of separation. Thank you, Praise belongs to the Source. Tom Gregory PS intuiting that you both have had an extremely religious upbringing that dominates still your identity, coupled with high I Q.s
Oh but the both/and! Separateness causes suffering, and it's also a source of so much delight and preciousness! I'm celebrating, praising, and revering the manifestation of Source - the ground of Being *blooming!* And what an astonishing paradox that everything that exists in the universe is, including us, separate AND one at the same time, so that Being, the Universe can love itself, be in relationship with itself, as human 🥰 Separateness only was so painfully partial, as was my rejection of it... the truth for me now is the wholeness of *uni-duality,* and divine immanence ... blessings to you friend 🙏🏼
Wonderful. Thank you both.
One of the detriments of extreme non-duality on my psyche was the loss of my ability to trust myself, my own perspective, my own insights, my own unctions. The recovery has not been easy, but it’s happening. ❤❤
Please spread this kind of message more. I was suffering so much because of this. I wasted years trying to reach enlightenment. Trying to destroy my ego. Now I am recovering thanks be to God. Thank you for this video 🙏
Sending much love to you friend, we've been there too! Thankful to hear that you're recovering too 🙏🏼💚 Thank you for being you!
Thank you for this! I'm so glad I found you and your work. I'll write you at some point about my experiences, but suffice it to say I needed your message, and I hope you can help a lot of people!
So happy this was meaningful for you, message me anytime!
I love non dual philosophies and loved soo much this interview. Congratulations!!! 🙌🙌🙌👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great talk.
As a former (quite hard-line) atheist who eventually found that to not work for me, I found Hans Wilhelm’s Life Explained videos are the best I’ve seen at explaining how it all works and what our true purpose is.
I am so grateful to find your channel. You are helping me so much with the anxiety i have surrounding this :)
much love to you friend! So happy to hear this from you
Thank you so much for this information…this will help a lot of people (including myself) to not go insane, we are people after all…❤
This is so important. Please continue your work. Thank you.
More to come! Thanks for the encouragement friend
Neo-Non-Dual Issue Resolved
Thank you both for helping me clear an issue I found with Neo-Advaita. As I listened to these people, I didn’t realize they were talking about “Neo” Advaita, and thought they were teaching Advaita. While I have no problem believing we are all connected, and we come from “The Consciousness”, or over-all spiritual awareness many people call God, but some of the Neo-Advaita teaching didn’t make sense. For example:
But when I heard these Neo-Advaita people claim I don’t exist, and I don’t make any of the decisions in my life, I started to question my own reality. Then I heard them claim everything we experience is an illusion created for us by the “One who is pure awareness”, and it is all 100% pre-determined. They said there doesn’t exist good or bad behavior, because we don’t choose our behavior. They claim karma doesn’t exist, because nothing is really real. AAAArrrrfgggghhhhh!
Thank you for being the voice of sanity.
:-D on
Determinism and therefore no free will is actually science. Everything that has ever happened, is literally caused by everything else that has ever happened. No 'self' just means that who 'you' are just a combination of your genes, environment, conditioning etc. it's actually really simple - just a 'causal matrix' which really is what 'one' means. but some people find it frightening. Others find it liberating because it means unpleasant feelings like guilt, blame and shame are illusive.
This is a really lovely talk between 2 knowledgeable, empathetic people who, from my pov had not had the particular experience they were seeking. The experience is real, though.
hello! Glad you enjoyed it. It's very real you're right, and did have the experience I was seeking, over and over again. My experience of personal absence ended up being a double edged sword. It radically freed me and eased some forms of suffering but eventually I found myself rather trapped in the boundlessness that was liberating for a long time, and new forms of suffering were created. I ended up perceiving too much of this precious human life as simply trivial, and was unable to be in relationships and fully enjoy them, and eventually I wasn't willing to sacrifice the preciousness of inter-personal intimacy and for detached impersonal serenity. Ironically a path that is meant to annihilate separateness ends up leaving many of us feeling more isolated from others than ever, understandably! It was a conscious choice I had to make, but it hasn't been easy. I've found a new experience of unity that brings the transcendent into the immanent, and doesn't negate individuation, and instead opens up an entire new relationship with each other and the world that comes from experiencing ourselves as both separate and always one. It's made all of existence feel sacred and significant, and has inspired me to participate enthusiastically in this miraculous world! I talk about this in another conversation here if you're interested! bit.ly/3MKua7l wishing you well!
@@thegloriousbothand Thank you, all the best to you.
I jumped on seeing the subject of this video. Been waiting for years for it! Thank you Guy Smith and the beautiful woman whose name I cannot see anywhere in the text.
"I hate that head-space now," says Guy, "I used to love it..." (paraphrasing) And who wouldn't want a philosophy that frees us from the burdens of the western mind?? which has a tendency to fall in love with philosophies from foreign (and much older) cultures. And to pluck what looks most juicy, as though one could understand the depths of eons-old wisdom in a sitting! Dis-illusion is inevitable.
As for myself, "consider the source" - a man on a rug in a sterile apartment in LA... the seductive gentle voice, the words that promise so much. Everything I need is in my own back yard, including wisdom that runs with the land where I am now rooted. It is rich with LIFE. The truths of Advaita Vendanta can co-exist with the realities of living in a sensual body on Earth. Firsts things first.
Isn't in ironic how in the attempt to be free from the Western mentality of consumerism, for example, it's being perpetuated by the White & privileged who are commodifying non-Western, non-white traditions, cherry picking the aspects that can be marketed as "instant enlightenment"? We've kept the instant gratification, quick fix Western mentality fully intact, and seeing the consequences of it which at it's worst has been deadly.
Her name is Jessica Eve.
If you're separating the two it's just a spiritual head trip, substituting one mental reality for another.
@@tommyericsson8882 Also known as Jessica Nathanson on some of her other videos. A beautiful woman indeed.
@@thegloriousbothand"White"? I wasn't aware people could be so simply defined by the color of their skin, or that "White" was a proper noun that required capitalization. Privileged?? So you would say people born into a world of consumerism and convenience have a privilege over people who are born into cultures that value other things more highly than material wealth and status?? These categorizations do not seem to come from a "spiritual" place.
The insight of people coming to ND in desperation and also failing at ND and giving up- is so astute.
Well said and a very tragic thing. 🌿
the more people talk about it, the less tragedy I hope!
So pleased to have found the grace of Oneness and deep Present faaaar away from books and concepts, systems and dogma. It came without searching; in times of raw vulnerability facing death of a beloved. Teaching me in every moment how to master the Embodiment of the Spirit/Inscention. How to live fully open the stream of life that i am. How to deal with reactivity, how to patiently dance with parts of the separated mind and the free nature of the expanded Spirit. Never thought that this would be my new true self:-)coming from the world of sport and journalism:-). But when the call comes it comes.💚Thank you for Being.
how beautiful, I feel that sense of grace from you!
I love this discussion. I have been contemplating similar lately. Instead of one or the other, or seeking an "end" of seeking, I see it more of cyclicly moving back and forth between the oneness and the human experiencing, at least for this phase of my life.The real end of seeking or interacting with the earth, when my mission of learning is complete and I lack desire to create and entangle, I imagine leaving into the void, or staying and dedicating time to service. my cycle is like seek, be, flow, experience, contemplate, seek, be, flow, experience, contemplate, etc, etc.its like if you were to leave, you are done creating, which is a gift you were given to use.
In my experience what’s become true and possible is experiencing oneness and individuality simultaneously , oneness need not and in my view ought not to thrust us out of the human experience but make it more precious, a real expression of the universe!
@@thegloriousbothand thanks. i have yet to experience the oneness (in this lifetime anyhow) I have imagined it existing in meditation like formless so interesting to hear it can extend to individuality and interacting with others in form.
Thank you for what you do! if you can, I feel like a conversation between yourself and Bernardo Kastrup would be wonderful!
thank you for engaging with us!!
Throw away ALL of non-duality; live your life in this "real" world. None of it is worth keeping. Suffer and grow your lovely ego!
Seems to me that the neo-advaita message cancels itself out. I mean, why would someone pay to hear Tony Parsons or Jim Newman tell them over and over and over and over (and over and over!) again that 'It's just what's happening, man!' ? I mean, who gives a fuck? I'd rather dance or have some other creative fun!
it does cancel itself out...it cancels everything out! 😣
That whole "Nobody has come to listen to a talk by nobody" thing, and they clearly believe they are being profound when they say it. All I think is, "Well, why are you telling us, then?!"
These guys are very annoying and the ‘message’ is tedious. I feel like I’m stuck in a nightmarish loop back feed.😢
More than anything else, nonduality is a global presence without any center. Now there are hubs of activity, groups, ashrams, meetups, programs, etc., and each hub has a center and an organization. Some hubs are good, some suck. But the whole of all the hubs and people communicating about nonduality has no center. Also, the global presence is self-correcting as this video demonstrates. You guys are still part of the nonduality global presence because you're communicating about nonduality. That's how I see nonduality: as a culture, a community, a social layer, a global presence. The "I'm enlightened, you're not" disposition is not what the global presence is all about though it is included and could even be beneficial to people at some point in their life. Thanks for you work.
Very interesting, loved the talk. I guess I've been lucky to find "non-dual" teachers who i think would agree with everything in the video. And for me, the more I've meditated and explored the self, the sense of self has actually gotten stronger which just isn't accounted for or discussed in neo advaita.
Jessica, I'm very thankful for this channel and the interviews you're doing. From my experience which many guru's would say does not and never did exist, this all is a breath of fresh air to talk about the questions we have without just saying it's a story over and over again :)
Avoiding, denying, lack of empathy or escaping by diving into neo-advaita as the ultimate is quite misleading. One guru said suffering is not even real. It's not real, until it's your real. These guru's once they go through real suffering will have to change their perspective or not. Either way, something may or may not be learned :)
Depending on where we all live being threatened or being in real fights can happen. I myself was in the martial arts and have been in fights, and I did not start it, but real life happens and you are either prepared or not. In nonduality, they say it's just a happening. Like getting sucker punched on a NYC street and laying knocked out on the ground is just a happening. Again, once it happens to those who are into neo-advaita they may or may not question it all.
The main thing we all may need to do is question the beliefs we have and the ones we take on from other countries. Honestly, what the hell do we all really believe without being told what to believe or this or that belief is the best one? Each one of us is influenced by our current environment, therefore we are all conditioned, and those of us who question that conditioning, habits and so on, may see through it or continue being deceived.
Jessica, I'm presenting one of my favorite author's below with a quote that is quite thought provoking ...
“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.” ― Charles Bukowski
thank you as always for your deeply insightful and heartfelt replies!!
Beautiful conversation! This is where I'm heading recently....back to myself without the need for my annihilation. It's o.k. to be o.k. and not need other's opinions about how that should look.
so wonderful to hear!
This has been a truly remarkable interview, thank you both!
I remember watching Guy years ago back when I had a spontaneous awakening, and I was wondering where he went. I never saw the lovely interviewer before but I loved everything she said here.
The calm and intelligent discussion was food for my soul. I too am having a dissonance with radical non-duality and find myself slowly becoming a normal person again. Lol.
I loved what Guy said about true freedom is being you - me - us - that is simply beautiful.
I sort of have a curiosity - what do you guys think about the non dual teachers who became Law of Attraction/Assumption teachers? I used to think that non-duality is the antithesis of manifestation, but I find such correlation fascinating.
Hello friend! It's wonderful to hear about your trajectory leading you back to your fully human self :) I think there's a really fascinating intersection between de-realizing non-dual teachings and LOA, and it can be very powerful too. I went through a phase of experiencing everything as a dream within my own consciousness (a la Nisargadatta) and finding that this unlocked a powerful way to sort of "create my own reality" as if I was living in a lucid dream. It was an in between stage where I was still viewing the self/world as illusory but began valuing being engaged in and participating in the dream. It was a wild time, and was both personally empowering and unlocked the ability to form healthier habits but at the same time would slip into grandiosity, solipsism, nihilism, etc. I've simply found that when reality is merely a dream, an illusion, and we're all just fictional characters i.e. anything less than really happening, it eventually kills my motivation, sense of significance to things etc. and I just don't want it anymore, even though it can be radically freeing and remove so many mentally influenced obstacles....it's kind of like ok I feel the freedom to do anything I want...wow this is f*cking incredible!......not too long after....sh*t, now that all of this isn't actually real and just a projection, I don't really care to participate much anymore....I'm just going to sit here and be the supraconsciousness that everything is within.....that was utterly profound....and highly disfunctional....now I'm rambling :) I will reply to your email now that I just saw and maybe we can talk about it more together :)
@@thegloriousbothand fascinating! Thank you for your magnificent response, it gave me chills!
For one, I can totally relate with the feeling of not being interested in the creation of one’s reality after the realization that it is merely a dream. Beautifully said.
And also, I am deeply impressed with your command of your language and your ability to convey your thoughts. English is my second language and I moved as an adult (at 22 years old) to Connecticut and I only spoke Spanish, so I’m always fascinated by good grammar and vocabulary.
I’m looking forward to read your email, and once again, thank you for your kind reply. Have a wonderful day!
Rosie
Wow I also grew up in Connecticut! How synchronous ;)
'Trapped in heaven.'
Yes - there's no nuance there.
I wasn't fully absorbed in the non-dual space. I met some scary practitioners. I knew intuitively to walk my own way.
Thank you for an interesting conversation.
I've found some deeply intuitive teachers amongst traditional Therevardan monastic who mention 'the foreground' and 'the background.' I've found their perspectives both deeply sophisticated and fresh.
One of the teachers who led me towards the both/and, Jason Shulman pointed me towards a reality in which foreground and background come together into the same plane and are a single thing!
@@thegloriousbothand That sounds like the real and authentic non-duality. Also, that term has possibly outlived it's usefulness, as it so easily turns into a mind game...
This was very interesting 👍😁☯
Sounds like there is nothing good about neo-advaita......sounds a bit like a charicature of it....but then again when I listen to people like Mooji I feel it's vedanta for third graders....... then there is Buddhism lite which sees meditation as the cure to everything under the sun. The quality of teachers seems indeed poor. Listen to the nondual teacher Lisa Cairnes and I think this person is almost totally inarticulate. Others are more articulate but as you rightly point out misintepret of misuse the teachings.......the real deal of eastern teachings for liberation, like Buddhism ....are not for the faint of heart and one should avoid them unless one is serious about liberation. Listening to you two I am not quite sure what your defintion of liberation is....or if you feel there is such a thing. My understanding of Buddhism is that liberation consists of the realization of the unreality of a self as executive decision maker and the emptiness of all phenomenon. And that such as realization (liberation) is usually preceeded with terror of death and the fear of insanity. And as you point out, actual cases of mental breakdown rather than break through are entirely possible.
Hi Steven! These are wonderful nuanced insights. We didn't really go into our current personal relationship with spirituality and how we relate to the concept of "Liberation," you're right. Don't worry, those conversations will be coming! We wanted this one to focus mainly on the troubling dynamics of the understandably alluring yet too often denigrating Western "non-dual" scene, from the perspective of two people who were once enthusiastically immersed in it, and who were deeply cut by its' double edged sword. We should pick back up our penpal-ship soon!
@@thegloriousbothand Ben super busy but look forward to it
Thanks for posting this interview, I feel it will be helpful to so many people whose heads and hearts have been messed up and are struggling to put them back together.
Just because people are passionate in their belief system it doesn't make them right or the truth. That is why we have guys flying planes into skyscrapers others drinking the koolaid and thousands of years of history of wars where God is always on our side. Advaita is another belief system, people who are really into it will deny that but many people believe their particular faith is the only true way.
This is so poignantly expressed: "whose heads and hearts have been messed up and are struggling to put them back together." Thank you so much for sharing this!
very cool ! i read guy's book years ago (and about 200 other nonduality books) - this should be an interesting interview :)
Hope it lived up to your expectation!
I have experienced much of what you describe coming from a Vajrayana Buddhist experience. Not to say that I didn't get a lot out of the experience, but it was very difficult to recover from the negative issues that also accompanied the experience
Thanks for sharing that, it's really important, as a lot of the issues we touch on here are not at all exclusive to neo-advaita. I would actually say that neo-advaita falls under a greater umbrella category that includes all degrees of self-negating non-dual/liberation paradigms, and even that neo-advaita is a spectrum of teachings that often include elements of Advaita + strands of Buddhism as well, especially Tibetan & Zen Buddhism. I was influenced by a mash-up of all of these.
Thank you! I was not buying into non-duality, but I was wondering if something was wrong with me because I was not comfortable with non-duality. I love living in concert with spirit, and I love living in concert with my humanity.
definitely nothing wrong with you!! but the rhetoric has a strong pattern of making people feel that way - lots of subtle and overt shaming/pressuring/judging of those who have hesitations about it 😤 I too love the melody of spirit and humanity in concert, not in discordance!!
It is very pretentious and I feel that many people with a weak grasp or command of reality embrace "non duality' as a form of cope and escapism from themselves
I think people who struggle with Non duality (like I did too at one point) are people who took the words/concepts too literally and seriously and just built a new more unhealthy identity around non dual concepts. Non dual concepts aren't supposed to be taken on as beliefs, and that's where everyone (atleast most people) go wrong. Non dual isn't serious, it's about embracing every essence of life. Every emotion every sensation.
Hi there, thanks for replying. from everything I've experienced, witnessed, and learned, I I do see this as a common misconception - that adverse effects within non-dual context are always a result of clinging to beliefs and not having direct experience/losing their sense of self. There's an abundance of evidence throughout history, and in our current times, that those who have profoundly positive *experiential* shifts in perception, and do indeed lose a personal sense of self, from non-dual teachings, often experience adverse effects, often in tandem with positive ones - and many of them are quite different from negative effects that can come just from having beliefs and not experiences, such as memory issues, disassociation, loss of motivation, difficulty keeping a job to ensure financial stability, trouble with responsibly fulfilling roles such as being an engaged parent, varying levels of impaired functioning, etc. It's important in my view, not to reduce all struggles to doing something wrong, as it prevents a balanced understanding of what one should be prepared for, what to take into consideration when deciding to engage with this kind of pathway, and what those teaching it would be wise to understand and make known in a respectful, open way. You might find this research study on unexpected side effects of losing one's sense of self in an ND context eye-opening! digitalcommons.ciis.edu/advance-archive/60/.....I would also challenge you to acknowledge that while we can have what gets referred to as "direct experience" that beliefs point to, we are still taking on new beliefs, whether clinging to them or not. I don't mean this in a rude way, but just want to point out that much of your reply included belief statements. I don't see that as a problem, it just feels important to be clear that non-dual teachings revolve around a system of beliefs AND experiences they can point us to. The experience doesn't eradicate belief, even if you aren't consciously thinking them or saying them out loud. which again isn't a negative thing , unless you are aligned with beliefs that having beliefs is a problem/impediment...
I came across this channel and agree with a lot of the conversation. I’m going to provide an opinion and I do not expect anyone to agree with this at all. It’s just my way of understanding the spiritual pathless path. In my experience, even within a non dual awareness the existence of a spirit is absolutely present. There is no separate self but there is absolutely a presence watching. Even people who claim to have had a no self shift has awareness, or they would not be able to function. Long story short, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to teach someone they do not exist. Enlightenment can and will still be a possibility without these ridiculous and dangerous ways of teaching. The only thing that does not exist is the persons name. That is indeed not who we are. In that sense you do not exist. This is just an opinion. It holds no judgement if anyone chooses to disagree. Enlightenment can absolutely be reached without pushing people off the edge and telling them they never existed. That type of teaching should be prosecuted when someone is hurt over this ridiculous way of pointing to truth.
Hi! it sounds like your view is that we don’t exist as anything other than an impersonal, amorphous witnessing presence and that what concerns you is unskillful, dangerous delivery styles and language used to
communicate this view in circles like neo-advaita? Just curious to understand!
@@thegloriousbothand exactly my experience and exactly what was meant by my comment. ❤️ we exist as life itself. As pure awareness. Formless spirit taking the shape of everything.
Does a whirlpool "exist"? Is a whirlpool a thing?
What do you call a "thing" that is only a temporary configuration of mass and energy? Is it a "thing" or just a snapshot of an arrangement of mass and energy in a temporary configuration?
Is a mountain a mountain, or just a temporary configuration of rock? Is a rock a rock or just a temporary configuration of sand? Is a grain of sand a grain of sand or is it a temporary configuration of silicon and oxygen atoms? Is a silicon atom a silicon atom or just a temporary comfiguration of protons, neutrons, and electrons?
So do you exist? What is meant by the word "exist" or pointing that you don't exist? Is it not just illustrating that you are not a "thing" because in each instant, your temporary configuration is changing and never permanent?
Is an ocean a thing, or is it just water? Do you see how there are no things at all and that all separation and categorization is indeed just an activity of mind and not something that maps actual reality?
Can even say for sure a universe exists "out there" when we know everything we see, hear, smell, and touch are responses to nervous stimuli that are created by the interactions of trillions of neurons??
In short, we mistake the "maps" that are created by the activity in our brains for the "territory" of "external reality", which in truth we can say nothing about.
We loose awareness when under anesthesia though. That's what puzzles me. If there's a 'spirit' or 'pure awareness' in us that isn't our senses, thoughts or emotions, then it would stay aware when under anesthesia.
and yes!!!! y’all are spot on in the fact that the same insecurity that drives one towards dogmatic non duality for relief, and fir a time it can be a relief, but yes then one’s insecurities are triggered waiting to be lucky enough to wake up!!! it reinforces the same set up. I mean to the credit of some neo Advaita teachers they will say I don’t know anything you don’t know etc. etc. etc. but the fact that they won’t meet you where you are, because they think you don’t exist, to me that inability or lack of desire to meet you and sit with you right where you are is setting up division. OK I’ll stop rambling! I think it’s because I’m a mother of two children that I see firsthand every single day how important it is to meet people where they are. ❤️
Rambling is welcome here!
Non duality has become a business providing a comfortable life for the new priests. Money changes everything. You can now go on the Internet and get a non dual guide for $100 to $200 an hour. I’m going back to traditional Buddhism and modesty.
I see that too. ULTIMATE TRUTH INC. 🤨
Check out kashmir shavism also.
“Offended monk” who leaves the world because he didn’t get what he wanted in the world and than starts claiming that he transcended the world but deep down he knows it’s a lie.
Could be indeed. Or he is truly transcendant...you never know you never know
Hi, your video came on my RUclips feed. I do self-inquiry and find it brings relief for me from suffering. However I also do somatic therapy and personal work. I thought the other day, the c reason I wanted to “depersonalise “ is because so much of the conversation and media and world is subtly fear-based so it’s no wonder people want to unplug from it. I do that at times when I’m overwhelmed and then try to come back into my body and a personal self in a more uplifted way. This seems to be the process for me. I don’t think non-duality is bad but I think maybe it’s part of evolution - detach from personal self when in negative vibe, and then come back in with a more uplifted beliefs and then that happens again and so we can spiral into more positive being.
Not sure if I’m explaining that well but that’s how I see it.
Hello! Thanks for sharing this. I like the emphasis on returning, more uplifted and positively engaged. Much of non-dual teachings that are popular today teach a permanent not just detachment but permanent loss of one's personal sense of self. Something that does happen for many people is that they find themselves stuck in either a detachment mode or totally impersonalized mode, and struggle to come back into the personal self and engage fully from selfhood, and part of this is due to teachings that don't emphasize that return/let's say being able to toggle back and forth, since they teach any "going back" the personal as going back into delusion, ignorance, and endless suffering. So this is one dynamic that is really causing people suffering and damage. It would be amazing to see more of a shift towards what you are describing - a sort of constructive detachment that can give us insights into how to live a healthier, more positive personal life, but there'd need to be a major shift in the common "non-duality" paradigm of permanent radical detachment from/disintegration of the personhood. Again, thank you for lending your balanced view :)
I think this is great. I got into non duality after a physical health issue. I do get it - my dad used to go on about maya and lilla. I have found it helpful to the extent that i now dont take everything personslly i look and see if the other person is having a bad day etc. But i agree we shouldnt use it to ignore thikgs that we can do something about. And also i dont like the apathetic element it can come a cross uncaring. But its a balance cos ive worn myseof out being too caring. I listen to my body now. I have gone bavk to my Christian roots with Christian mystics. And simone de beauvoir says " my philosophy must be from life itself ". I read that when i was 18. And recently understand now im 55 that my body is my truth abd staying healthy is important. Non duality is a great but you have to look at the time it developed in historically i think. We need to look after ourselves too. It needs to be applied with great care because as madonna sings we are living in a material world. Itvmay be something or nothing but theyvare both just words, pointers. Right off for a massage now!
turbo charges the inner troll!!! i love that. i mean , it got to a point where i could not have a single thought without the troll chastising me! for having a thought!!🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
You're not alone Kate, it's inevitable and happens to the best of us! 💓
This is why yoga and Tantra came about
my understanding is that yoga traditionally was meant as a means to an end of enlightenment defined as the extinguishment of the self / the cycle of rebirth
The truth is that neoadvaita is not non duality. Thich nath nanh zen master speaks about real non duality
yet there are so many traditions and traditions within traditions that disagree about what non duality points to
@@thegloriousbothand in real non duality subject and object, preceiver and preceived are one. Consciouness and object of consciousness is just two side of the same coin. Neoadvaita separate subject and object, therefore that is duality not nonduality
@@matcollins6503 ah, I see what you are saying and yes I agree, that seeming opposites are two sides of same coin
there's an individual by the name of Kim Michaels who runs a youtube channel and has only 1.6k followers, irrelevant from that he has a video titled "Non-duality 3. The Nonsense of Non-self" and it's about 44 minutes long. You want to know what it really is, The ultimate best explanation how non duality/duality truly works and what It truly is. The absolute best of the best explanation I've ever came across on these platforms. The dude has the knowledge!
hopefully not another guy proclaiming to know the "ultimate" truth - this is what I needed to move away from as this kind of authoritarianism became a stranglehold on my perception.
A lot of people would benefit from watching a discussion between Guy and a non duality speaker from the Parsons ilk.
agreed :)
תודה רבה ממש טוב 🙏
So happy it was meaningful for you!
@@thegloriousbothand so happy i found you..have much gratitut for your brave claer stand
nonduality, no matter what they say, is deeply idealogical. Capture in the truest sense.
Getting rid of the self is not necessary, there are no conditions to radical non duality. 🤔☯
The positive takeaway is that various forms of non dualist location are available
Neo advaita is inherently murderously (passive) aggressive that's my beef with it. Such bad vibes...
Wow, “murderously passive aggressive,” that hits hard and deep. Really captures an important nuance. So true. Too true.
Interesting, but I got a bit lost in your discussion. I am happy being aware of my natural state, the I am. It's always there and beyond definition. My refuge. No more searching. Peace. Bliss. 😌
hello :) where I'm at now, I don't see any states as "un-natural," how can anything be un-natural that has evolved naturally?
“Anything to do with juice”
Yes, that’s it in a nutshell
« You can’t get this, bla blabla, there is nothing you can do to change this»… okay, thank you have a good day 👋👋
Former "Non Dualist" 😂
Sounds dualistic!
lol not sure what you mean by that. but in case it was meant as negative, I relate to duality as precious!
This is about seeing not thinking.
say more?
@@thegloriousbothand see douglas harding.
I'm very familiar with seeing reality headlessly
@@thegloriousbothand cool. Enjoy.
The whole thing is exhausting, frustrating and annoying af
with you friend!
To you. Not to everyone. I find it incredibly liberating.
nonduality in its expansive horizon offers freedom, peace and gives access to a lovely, nourishing silence.
I find much of the versions of Nonduality that are popular today teach expanding one’s view in an imbalanced, extreme way, where healthy boundaries are denied/discouraged to an unhealthy point, and the particularities within an expanded view are either denied, illusorized or trivialized
Guy's reasons for not maintaining a web site --- yes yes yes!! the best spiritual teachers and people I know work one on one and have no time or interest in promoting themselves. Not to put down the others at all but these i love most. We sit on the porch... there are clouds, birds, and oh yes! dig those post holes before the sun is too hot.
wonderful comment, thank you Constance! I'm sitting in the sun right now, and over-heating :) the commodification and mis/appropriation of foreign traditions is quite a double edged sword with so many unintended harmful consequences. I just read this article interestingly, called "The Whiteness of The Spiritual but Not Religious" which talks about this topic and it's so fascinating. Maybe you'll like it canopyforum.org/2020/09/24/representation-and-whiteness-among-the-spiritual-but-not-religious/ She talks about White commodification of Hinduism
I’m sad that there is so many that turn non-duality into “you have no free will”. I arrived through my own gnosis in Science! Crazy, I know. But hear me out. It’s both. You are real. It is real. Stop dividing “real”. Programming. Ideas. Words. Images are more accurate, and hold much, much more information.
Yes, it feels most accurate that there are things we do not/cannot control, as well as things that we can, and that we certainly have meaningful choice, and what a precious thing that is!
Spirituality begins from the assumption of duality. It is always 'our' fault. The Spiritual person says, 'I have had everything this life can offer and I am still not happy.'
That is one perspective of what a "spiritual person" is. There's a vast multitude of what "spiritual" means to different folks. Non-duality that I followed seems so dogmatic to me in terms of claiming what "True" spirituality is. Or what a "truly" spiritual person is.(While also insisting there is no person) I came to find this extremely limiting and authoritarian. It also sounds like you're denying duality, as I once did. I humbly suggest considering whether negating multiplicity in order to affirm oneness is itself either/or dualism. From a both/and perspective, seemingly opposite poles are not mutually exclusive, but inter-dependent...co-arising. Also, if one has "experienced all that life has to offer" (is that really possible?) and is still not happy, another option is to cultivate greater ability to savor the seemingly "mundane" as utterly precious, and thereby cut through habituation to the miraculous that fuels the hungry ghost syndrome!
@@thegloriousbothand I think you might give a little more consideration to what I said about being 'spiritual'. The spiritual seeker is always on a quest to find 'something else.' They think that something is missing. They are waiting for something to happen. They are dissatisfied with the way things are. They are looking for a better experience. There are of course innumerable ways in which the spiritual person tries to satisfy these desires. Be it Faith, Religion, Yoga, Meditation or any number of 'Practices'. It all stems from a sense of lack. That is a consequence of assuming separation. The sense of separation is what brings about duality. There is no separation really. It is only an appearance. There is only what is. What is, includes everything that appears to be happening and therefore, it includes me and you. We are the Way it Is. We are This. There is no separation. No one is on a journey to find something that is missing. There is nothing missing. Nothing needs to happen for this to be what is happening already. It is not a reward for good behaviour or hard work. This is not trying to become something else. It is as it is.
@@thegloriousbothandWell said, a lot of contradictions in the whole concept, and then the fact that it's apparently "not a concept". It's not anything! It's really just too aloof and nebulous to be anything useful and as an idea it doesn't strengthen anyone like truly facing yourself and overcoming yourself does, rather, it dissassociates them and regresses them while convincing them they are enlightened.
It’s interesting to me that some Neo teachers present themselves under the guise of “Science and Non-Duality”, and yet there very dogmatic presentation precludes scientific analysis (such as Rupert Spira and Depok Chopra). I do believe though that science, when applied to an analysis of non-duality will help in the evolution of our understanding. Discussions like this are very important as part of that evolution. What I want, and hope for is Truth. Is there such a thing? Is Reality knowable?
Yes, I find it fascinating when I see material reductionists & spiritual reductionists teaming up against the reality of the self. One reducing it to the material, the other to immaterial. Truth - I'm inclined these days to veer away from "ultimate" truth paradigms, and instead decide what feels most compelling, inspires qualities/behavior that I feel support how I want to live and want to see society and evolution go towards....
The Spiritual person begins from the assumption of duality. He or she is dissatisfied with life. Something always seems to be missing. They assume that they are at fault in some way. They say, I have had everything this life can offer and I am still not happy. It must be my fault. To correct this sense of lack, there are no end of 'teachers' who will advocate some kind of 'practice' which will help. The practice will help to get something or get somewhere. Spiritual practice is the endless quest for 'something else.' It is the search for 'something else.' In other words it is the quest for more separation. It is the appearance of awareness and consciousness which gives the appearance of separation in the first place. Therefore Spirituality is the attempt to cure the ills of separation with more separation. The Spiritual person says, that they are too worldly. They need to be more moral or more pure. They need to find God's Will. they need to find pure faith or a higher dimension or some such nonsense. More separation leads to more separation. Awareness is separation. Consciousness is separation. Meditation is separation. Spiritual practice is separation. Monasticism is separation.
Non duality says there is no separation. There is only what is. There is no separation. There is not two. This is empty but it is also full. It is empty fullness. It is the relative absolute. It is what is and what isn't. People suffer because they think there is a sense of lack when there is none. Nothing is missing from all there is. What is, is not trying to become something else. It is as it is.
When, as you said, "nothing is missing from all there is," why are you excluding anything? For nothing to be missing, nothing can be excluded. "A sense of lack when there is none." Even a sense of lack is included in all there is. Wholeness doesn't even require negating broken-ness, if it is fully whole. Separateness and oneness, not mutually exclusive, that's a dualistic, either/or fallacy, as I see it, which I used to hold. I'm comfortable with the description of a "oneness of multiplicity." And multiplicity is so very beautiful, precious and a sacred element of "all that is!"
@@thegloriousbothand I did not really understand your Post? I am not excluding anything. This or the Way it Is, is totally Free. It does not have to be one way or another. It is no - thing or NOTHING and yet it appears as everything. It is nothing and everything simultaneously. Space is nothing appearing as everything and so is Time. This is therefore infinite. You cannot get closer to it or further away from it.
Good
I started out with Neo Advaita, but soon switched over to a study/immersion into Advaita Vedanta of Shankara/ Upanishads. Neo Advaita just didn’t make any sense to me.
Out of curiosity, if you’re open to sharing, which aspects of more traditional advaita teachings clicked more for you?
Perspective needs separation.
Nothing is separate 🤔☯🤨
friend, I wanted to humbly point out again that all of your comments have included perspectives, beliefs, opinions, whether or not they are based on your own experience, these are still interpretations that of those experiences, based on your unique perspective. that's okay, but I thought it would be helpful to point that out
@@thegloriousbothand you’re missing the point 🤣😁☯
@@advaitawho please do enlighten me!
you are using the yin/yang symbol. what does it mean to you? It doesn't represent a negation of separateness, but actually the opposite of that. It's a symbol of interdependent opposites, and represents that "all things in the universe exist as inseparable and contradictory opposites." as in, oneness and separateness, the personal and the universe, parts and the whole, etc. It points to oneness and separateness or let's say the one and the many as complimentary not contradictory. Thoughts?
@@thegloriousbothand you pretty much said it all. My understanding of yin yang comes from Alan Watts on the polarity of yin yang. ☯ It’s a good listen 😁
It can be a tough message if you are not resilient,
And "cigarettes can be bad for your health/kill you, if your lungs aren't resilient!"
This is a radical over-simplification of the complexities discussed, which include toxic cult-like dynamics in a new-age spiritual movement where spiritualized mental illness, exploiting the vulnerable, and thinly veiled narcissistic abuse runs rampant.
Perhaps you would find the book The Guru Papers enlightening. Highly recommended.
This dude has a very different version of non duality to the radical non duality that I understand 🤔🤷♂☯
there tend to be variations among what these "speakers" say, they are not all saying exactly the same thing
@@thegloriousbothand the radical non duality speakers all say the same thing.
There is no free will.
The individual is an illusion.
Nothing is separate. ☯
The non duality teachers all say different things and turn it into a spiritual quest, which is bullshit! 😂☯
From brilliance to working class muddle in 20 short years.
His old book is still great, though.
It’s a shame with the den of modern culture can do to a great mind .
It's unfortunate when someone feels the need to belittle another's journey.
There is no truth! ☯
do you not view all of the claims you've shared in these comments to be true? just wanting to clarify from your view
@@thegloriousbothand no. Not one word anyone says is true! Only apparent! 😁☯
thoughts on this?
@@advaitawho apparently true? are you saying that what you're putting forth is apparently true, as in double-stating that it is true? Are you saying that it's apparently true as in it's self-evident and therefore unquestionable? what does it really mean...
@@thegloriousbothand Apparent: readily seen or understood; obvious.
Seeming, as opposed to real.
According to the dictionary. 🤔😁☯
Non-duality is NOT a dogma, rule set or system of beliefs. It’s a term used to describe the disillusion of the personal self. It’s after-the-fact. You’re arguing against something that is told to you as it is, by those who are “experiencing” it that way. You’ve built up a phony construct based on a failed understanding of non-duality. The people I’ve seen who are truly awake are so joyous and free, and totally unphasable it’s just astonishing to see you ascribe these concepts to something that is the opposite of a concept.
Actually, there's a wide range of paradigms, traditions, people that describe themselves as "non-dual", each with different perspectives on what it points to, and many of them have little or nothing to do with the dissolution of the personal self. I used to see it as you do, but not anymore. I want to point something out that I realized - what you just said is squarely dogmatic - you said that there are people who experience reality a certain way, and the way they interpret it (what it's told me to me as) is "the way it is" - meaning that they believe that because they experienced reality in a certain way (a way that I used to), it is automatically "absolute" truth. There's another possibility here - what we're experiencing, is a real way to experience/perceive reality, out of many ways humans can do so, that's it. The interpretations of those experiences might or might not be "the truth" but it's authoritarian to suggest that the way you perceive, and what you conclude about reality = the unquestionable truth, and anyone who questions it is ignorant and wrong. And I want to also add that I never ever want to be "unphaseable" again. That felt utterly freeing at first, and then ultimately de-humanizing. I want to feel touched and move by this bittersweet life, and the full range of fully aliveness, emotions and all, not indifferent, dis-effected etc. I no longer see such a thing as an ideal, and definitely not a "spiritual" ideal!
you might find something of value in this conversation with a guy who used to teach non-dual "ultimate" "truth" pointers ruclips.net/video/DonsKYcp94w/видео.htmlsi=ctOn7EUA6IFXKR6J
also, to your suggestion that I didn't "get it," I only have this youtube channel because I went so deeply into my own dissolution, for several years, and experienced it eventually as a double-edged sword. My understandings about all of it have changed, but I used to understand it the way you describe understanding it.
Even science/ psychology is catching up on the ideas that there is no free will and no self or separation! ☯🤔
there's no consensus on free will, and a lot of the studies people point to, when you look into them, have been debunked, or at least shown to be non-conclusive in the ways they claim to be. if we smash our heads together, i guarantee you will feel our separateness, lol!
@@thegloriousbothand the science and psychology studies into free will show that free will is an afterthought. And, that it is better for a person’s well being to believe they have complete free Will…this is not the case! You must have read different studies to me! 🤔🤷♂☯
@@advaitawho I think one of the major studies you're talking about is Libet's. I used to find that study about afterthought compelling, but then I found this other interpretation of what may be happening, and definitely worth taking into account
www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/09/free-will-bereitschaftspotential/597736/
@@thegloriousbothand ahh thanks I will take a goosey gander 👍😁
Who said that there’s nothing you can do? It’s that there’s no one to do anything…yet things still appear to happen. ☯ There is plenty to apparently do. 😂
"there's nothing to do" and "no one to do it" is a very common message. some say what you just said above, but the fact remains that the whole path taught, led to such a radical kind of detached serenity that I got to a point that I had no motivation to do anything, and could literally have just sat on a bench and not gotten up again for the rest of my life. Maybe that sounds ideal to some people, but I'd say be very careful what you wish for.
@@thegloriousbothand absolutely, ignorance is bliss! 😂☯ I too have lost all motivation, so I know what you mean. 🫤
I went through a phase of what I now think of as blissful nihilism. I wonder how long you've been exposed to folks like Jim Newman?
Unconditional non duality is a better term 🤔☯😁
it seems like what you're calling non-duality is conditional on a lot of things, like there being no free will, the self and separateness being an illusion, and is based heavily on excluding things from reality, not including. for me non-duality points to a unity of opposites, not the negation of one end of an inter-dependent polarity.
@@thegloriousbothand no free will is not a condition, it is a symptom of being human! You already have no free will with or without the knowing of it. 🤔☯ Separateness is not an illusion, it is apparent! The only illusion is the individual. The neti, neti approach is not what I’m talking about. There is no separation…therefore a unity, as you say, is all there is. 😁
@@advaitawho you're claiming that these are unquestionable truths, that most would agree are not conclusive - and that whether or not we have free will is not provable in the end. You are here again stating things that you believe are true, when you've also said there's no truth. Do you see that? How could there be unity with nothing to unify?
@@thegloriousbothand absolutely 👍😁☯ How could there be unity with nothing to unify!?! 🤷♂
Did you not find the lack of personal story and no beliefs freeing? 🤔☯
Hi there, yes I did, I found it felt utterly liberating in the beginning, but it was a kind of honeymoon phase, as while I'd gained this access to what felt like boundless serenity, I'd eventually found I'd become a rather zombified, lobotomized, vacuous empty shell who had extinguished her soul in exchange for a kind of freedom that required losing so much of my precious humanity. I discovered it had been a kind of deal with the devil, indeed. And also, it's really not that we no longer have a personal story, it's more like we forget it, we've detached it from it radically and aren't putting our attention it...but our history is still there to be described at any moment. And do we really stop having beliefs? For one, there's the belief that we have no beliefs...that it's better to not have beliefs or a personal story, it's a belief that there is no free will, that there is no self, even if these convictions are based on something we call "direct experience," all of these things we say are interpretations drawn from them. I point this out humbly, that most of your comments here include beliefs, and perspectives (which I don't see as a bad thing!) - "there are no conditions to nonduality" "there is no free will" etc. I ended up deciding that I don't need to stop having beliefs, but to change how I relate to my beliefs, and hold healthier, less limiting ones!
@@thegloriousbothand detachment is not the same as there being no one! 🤔☯ And if there is no separation, what is there to detach from?
In Radical non duality awareness isn’t necessary. ☯🤨
how does this pertain to the topics discussed?
Neo-advaita as a name is actually not correct. It is more a neo-buddhism cloaked in the language of vedanta. Except in buddhism practise is important, but the directness of advaita is combined with the emptiness of self. Only the emptiness of neo advaita is not empty ittself, but full of emptiness. Forms are then emptiness forming. The fullness of emptiness gives the appearance of fullness of form, but is according to neo advaita actually empty. However any criticism on this will be denied as it is coming from an idea of knowing, therefore false. If you say that actually there is in neo advaita a form of knowing cloaked in not knowing, you get a full rejection, as they ‘know’ that knowing is just an appearance. That is why they get stuck, end up in a form of nihilism and reject any form of knowing and perspective.
When i listen to a neo advaita talk it is said there is nothing to hold onto to. That is exactly what they do, they hold on to nothing. Everything just appears, but actually there is just nothing. So they subtly hold on to nothingness ittself and manifestation is reduced to it. It is literally nothing as they say it, they give clues how they look at it. As nothing can be done with nothingness there is nothing that can be done. The nothing actually is being ‘done’. When this is understood it means nothing is really understood, as nothing is understood, it is conceptualised as nothing but telling this tot a neo advaita teacher this will be denied, as they will say nothing really can be known. In it is hidden that nothing is known, the nothing becomes a knowing. It becomes a hide and seek, but they declare there is nothing that can be found. End of discussion. It is a shapeshifting of the word nothing. They use it in way that is convenient for them at that moment. So they can always slip out of any attack, and even if you point it out, they just like to make you look ridiculous. That the ego just cannot take this message or something.
I relate to neo-advaita as a mash-up of Eastern self-negating teachings, blended into a new-age offering based on the Buddhist "no-self" doctrine and Advaita's "Self" as pure awareness...for me, when I say I was immersed in "neo-advaita" it was a combo of elements of zen buddhism, tibetan buddhism, as well as advaita vedanta, particularly neo-vedanta/contemporary advaita a la Ramana Maharshi & Nisargadatta Maharaj. But yes, the term is limiting and I prefer to say something more like "self-negating non-duality" as an umbrella term. And yeah, sounds like you're pointing to the dogmatism in "ultimate truth" paradigms claiming knowledge of another order that cannot be touched by the rational mind. Yet, it's always the rational mind itself making such claims, which is a major blind spot that I myself had in the past.
@@thegloriousbothand That is correct, however i would not confuse the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj with the western modern neo advaita. These teachers do actually offer a practise and acknowledge the sense of knowing.
There are definitely differences, you are right. Though there are core overlaps - I would say that the core of the teachings - radical denial of the person, for example - while there are huge contextual differences that are important to acknowledge, and some of them lead to danger when stripped away. My main concern with "neo-advaita" is the indiscriminate dissemination to the general public as a panacea. If this weren't happening there'd be no need for spreading awareness about the dangers, as the teachings would only have been reached by a tiny fraction of folks, rather than youtube being over-run with videos called YOU ARE NOT A PERSON. Imagine Ramana Maharshi walking the streets shouting this, lol.
@@thegloriousbothand the real problem with neo-advaita is that it seems to be fit for the lazy western person. Nothing to do, nothing to grasp and you reached the essence of reality. Which teachings of Ramana and Nisargadatta requires much work, which is usually to much to ask. But you have to understand that these people were ingrained in Hindu culture. They knew what was in the scriptures, westerners therefore need to take up the study of these scriptures as it not always clear in their writings. You usually need a context for those teachings.
Non-duality is really not for the faint of heart. It seems you just weren't mature or mentally resilient enough to accept it but criticising its teachings because you weren't adequately prepared is a little petulant. I agree that some in the community are corrupt but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater ..
Non-dual paths that welcome suffering as a price to pay for participating fully in the human experience as a personal expression of Being are not for the faint of heart either.
@@thegloriousbothand great response, thank you for a new perspective :)
From what I have seen the type that love non duality are the faintest of all hearts. These people don't even have a single solid opinion or grasp on reality. They couldn't tell you what a woman or a man is but they have the gaul to fancy themselves as teachers or gurus of "enlightenment". It's embarrassing. They really are like children.
I'm also curious, what would constitute being adequately prepared? the non-dual teachings that are popular today tout the fact that they require zero preparation whatsoever...meaning, the majority of folks drawn into these teachings are not prepared in any way...so please do share what you think the teachers should be explaining to their followers is essential if one is to be prepared?
"Neo-Advaita", a stupid concept as it means "new not-two", utter nonsense. Besides, advaita, nonduality isn't a technique, a means to reach something or somewhere, isn't a way to get something, it is not something you can do, practice, it is just an expression of life, as anything else, it is life living itself, this is it, whether you like it or not, because that is it too. But as humans we tend to transform anything into something we can use, possess. How to use "no-thing"? What is the meaning of life? The meaning of life is... being... or the meaning you give to it. Discarding nonduality is as nonsensical as praising or promoting or teaching it.
how brilliantly condescending and rude
Dear Glorious Both-And and Tim,
Re mental suffering
Suffering is a thought/concept . These thoughts come and go but that which is aware of thoughts is not the thoughts.
We can recognize and abide in awareness-- to be aware knowingly. I am aware and know that I am aware that I am aware.
The ignorance remains but the illusion disappears.
The clearest pointing, narrative, storytelling, for me is from Rupert Spira. (Bernardo Kastrup)
Let's celebrate our shared being instead of suffering ideas of separation.
Thank you,
Praise belongs to the Source.
Tom Gregory
PS intuiting that you both have had an extremely religious upbringing that dominates still your identity, coupled with high I Q.s
Oh but the both/and! Separateness causes suffering, and it's also a source of so much delight and preciousness! I'm celebrating, praising, and revering the manifestation of Source - the ground of Being *blooming!* And what an astonishing paradox that everything that exists in the universe is, including us, separate AND one at the same time, so that Being, the Universe can love itself, be in relationship with itself, as human 🥰 Separateness only was so painfully partial, as was my rejection of it... the truth for me now is the wholeness of *uni-duality,* and divine immanence ... blessings to you friend 🙏🏼