I'm not necessarily saying that it isn't a good thing to get one extra, charge, I'm saying that the value from that ability is comparatively weak to a lot of other leader abilities, especially considering how many other sources of builder charges you can get in a game.
So, it sounds like the designers made China pretty accurately. An isolationist civ that plays very defensively, with slight bonuses to science and culture. I love how you say the Great Wall can be useful if you are getting invaded in the early game, which was the original purpose of the Great Wall.
Religions provide a large amount of yields you otherwise wouldn’t have. Interfaith dialogue, meeting houses etc. Also, getting a guaranteed religion means that’s one more AI that doesn’t get those bonuses on deity. I think you’re criminally undervaluing religions in Civ 6 if you think securing Stonehenge on deity isn’t valuable.
China seems to be built for longer than standard games (in a similar vein for how Gilgamesh seems to be built for human against AI). I find on Marathon games, it's not too hard to get most of the Eurekas, as many require interaction with the map, and you have more time to move the units around to get them.
Yeah I'd have to disagree with his opinion on the first emperor I find it to be an amazing ability for the early game and especially if you've got a good spot for the great wall
@@TheSaxyGamer Most games I play as China I can get nearly every Ancient and Classical era wonder which gives me a large boost. I do play on easier difficulties but the point still stands.
My great wall provides 6 gold and 4 culture, i have like 400 culture per turn before ad on Deity. Generally agree though that China is pretty underpowered, but one of the most fun to play imo since you can consistently get the few early game wonders you'd want and thus get a gameplan going and the great wall is just sexy if you can get it going well and have enough pop and cities. The insane culture output you can get also means that you get to building civic wonders before anyone else can. More wonders means even more culture via theater squares plus whatever the wonder provides, so you can see where this is going.
The thing is, to have Magnus you cant have anyone else. China allows you to get most of that ability and still get the 10% science/culture guy in your capital
until the modern era I get nearly every Heureka and inspiration. thats the way I play. with the chinese bonus I totally rush through the tech and culture tree.
I get the golden age perk where you can get builders with faith. I get the religious perk where wonders give you 4 faith. You can then spam workers with faith to build wonders effortlessly, even in cities with no production. Just gotta make sure you get Stonehenge, which is pretty easy since you can start building it from turn 1, which is the other advantage of spending builder charges on Wonders, you can start production on wonders before you unlock the tech
You say that "because Magnus exists" he is inferior to everyone using that. But, what if you arent near forests in the early game? Nothing to chop then. Also, you can use the builder charges in combination with Magnus or Liang. Instead of using chops to build on Wonders, you can instead use them to create other builders. With Magnus that's an easy 1 chop=1 builder. Then you can just gangbang the wonder with all the charges you've stacked up through mass producing builders. Similar with Liang though possibly not as good, each builder you create will have 1 more charge for you to use. This is bumped up 1 more if you manage to get Pyramids early on, not to mention the 2 free builders it gives you. Usually I don't plan city placements around wonders, but its worth it to have a flat desert tile in range if it means I can get Pyramids before anyone else. And think about the massive line of Great Wall improvements you can make towards the mid- and end-game with the charge boosts from Serfdom and Public Works.
To add to my comment, what's really cool about the builder charges for wonders is that it's percentage based. This means that you can make a city in the middle of the desert and with 3 builders make Petra in less than 10 turns even though it says it would take you 226, giving you one of the most efficient cities in the game.
I usually completely agree with what you say, but I disagree with your opinion on The First Emperor. It’s fantastic on Diety to beat out the AI for wonders. And an extra builder charge is a great bonus that really adds up over time. You practically get 10 free builders by the end of the game
Dynastic Cycle can be pretty when playing multiplayer teams, as long as you and your teammate(s) communicate so that you can get more eurekas/inspirations. Not overpowered, but when played right in teams it becomes a pretty noticeable bonus.
Why don't they let you build the great wall on the path's rivers use? Defensive bonus applies when someone crosses from the tile. It should also stop movement in early eras. Maybe each tile has a blue health bar and must be broken down.
So is China like a 4-5 city civilization? I'm fairly new to the game, won science with Rome and Culture with Gorgo, but I've been struggling to find a civ to play Gathering storm with, and what type of victory I want.
The long term benefit of the builder charge is whichever ancient and classical wonders you can spam before they are obsolete. Just like ghandi loses relevance on small player count games, China loses its relevance in deity when the AI can beat you to wonders. Still better than Egypt for wonders
u say it only does 15% But u can do it multiple times which means 1 builder with 4 charges (u can get 5 if u get the advisor and even 6 if u get the pyramids) can pretty much cut a wonder down by 60% at minimum if u have all 6 thats 90% reduction
Yeah, 15% per charge. The point I was making was that you could in most cases finish a wonder in only 3 or 4 chops, but using the ability would only get you to 60%, so it is a bit less effective than chopping.
I think +20% would be a nice change. I'd almost even go as far as to say that +25% would be okay. The ability is around for such a short time that I think it would be a good thing to have it be very strong while it is around.
Really wish they chose another leader. Other than the Great Wall, Qin Shi Huang was the person who united China but I don’t think that historical aspect shows here since his unique tile improvement and unit promotes a more defensive play style
If you hit all Eurekas and Inspirations, the 10% additional cost reduction is equivalent to a 20 % yield increase. If a tech costs 100 Science, it cost 60 with eureka usually, but 50 now. I.e. you having 5 Science per Turn you need 10 Turns to research it. Someone else with 6 Science need 10 Turns too. Unfortunately, the Strength of this Bonus gets reduces worse then linear from not having all Inspirations/Eurekas. If you have x% of the Eurekas, then the Bonus will be (100-0.4x)/(100-0.5x)*100-100 %. If you hit 50% of the Eurekas, that is 80/75 *100 -100 % = 6.6%
As a side effect of playing POE, I tend to notice multiplicity bonus. The 20% bonus is multiplied by other increase in science, although you only a few increase, Pingala, Oxford, and Amundsen-Scott Research Station.
Normally I like your videos, but to be honest, your biases are really showing on this one. China gets a very early tile improvement for culture and gold, which adds tourism later on. If you ring your empire with the Great Wall chain (which you should be doing for defense and to get all that sweet culture), you're looking at a huge tourism boost. Tourism is one of the areas where it is hard to get massive boosts: you need relics, works of art, artifacts, wonders, that sort of thing, and these are hard to get, and come late. Also, those Great Wall tiles get two gold each. Yes, if you ignore the Great Wall, you lose out on, on average, 3-6 tiles per city, meaning you don't get the extra 6-12 culture and gold. Per city. Writing off the Great Wall is a mistake for the cultural victory. China deserves better than average on that one victory type.
You also have to keep in mind though that if you choose to build Great Walls, not only do you lose out on the ability to build farms/mines etc, but you also must be working the tile to gain any bonuses from the Great Wall, tourism included. I would argue that tourism is actually quite easy to get in later eras, as seaside resorts and national parks become available. For instance, if you are able to get Cristo Redentor, a single seaside resort can provide upwards of 10 tourism on a single tile. That is almost infinitely better than having to use 5 tiles, being worked by 5 citizens, to receive the same benefit.
I can see China having problems to work the Great Wall tiles, but they're IN ADDITION of seaside resorts and other sources of tourism. Plus they have some extra tourism from early wonders. Moreover, seaside resorts have much difficult requirements to place (appeal-based, plain coastal tiles), and although Cristo Redentor is a must for lots of culture victories, you can't count on always having a wonder. I just think China needs to find sources of food/housing/amenities to work the Great Wall tiles, and that's all.
I don't know, to me this one seems pretty accurate. Especially compared to other civs. I personally hate the wall, I rather use the build charges for luxury resources to sell or mines. It will pay off much more than just going for a wall. I rather grow my cities early on so I would never focus culture anyway. Only reason I would build the wall is to suddenly have an increase in tourism later on. How can you compare this bonus to the other culture bonus civs? I would rather play trajan or kongo for culture.
Great works are not hard to come by, and you can start getting them early game, very early with some Civs (like Russia with their lavra). The wall is not very useful, and there are usually better things to build that provide more benefits for your empire. That said, the wall, on desert tiles with Petra affecting them make some very good tiles. Other than that, the wall is not useful.
I have to strongly disagree with you on China's abilities. Yes, the Crouching Tiger and Great Wall are pretty bad, and purely defensive uniques like these are made even more pointless by the fact that the AI doesn't really ever pose a military threat in which "turtling up" would be a necessary or useful strategy. The abilities, though, are both pretty good, and I believe you are underestimating them: The First Emperor - The extra builder charges do add up. They will mean more in the early game, but this is a consistent and useful bonus which will be with you throughout the entire game. It is very close in benefit to starting with a free Pyramids wonder from turn 1. The wonder rushing ability is also pretty good, as well as a lot of fun. Magnus chops have been nerfed a bit now (100% to 50%), and they do require you to both have Magnus established and sacrifice your forests (which will yield more the later you chop them). The direct wonder production boost from workers is easily accessible and flexible, as it allows you to rush wonders wherever you like, independently from city terrain and the availability of forests. It does only work for wonders from the first couple of eras, but there are quite a few of those, many of which are quite good. Dynastic Cycle - Again, this is a bonus which will help you from the very beginning throughout the entire game. I don't agree that getting Inspirations and Eurekas is something you can not consistently do. I believe most experienced players will exploit this mechanic for everything it is worth, actively pursuing boosts, and switching out research half-way to wait for the boost to finish it off. You also get boosts from other sources, such as Great Scientists. Overall, I believe in most of the games I play, I get boosts for a clear majority of the civics and techs I research.
Although its counter productive. I do love using china, building the great wall and just beef up my defense. Then I go to war with everyone at once. Test out the defense lol
To be honest as a Chinese I really DON'T like what they've done with China. Not because of the reasons you mentioned tho, but for the fact that they completely ignore China's ability to overwhelm much more powerful opponents military and science-wise through culture alone. It would be much more accurate and interesting if this cultural-syncretism is presented, rather than some small eureka boosts nonsense.
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I really think you are underrating the extra build charge. The action economy of it over the length of a campaign is pretty significant.
I'm not necessarily saying that it isn't a good thing to get one extra, charge, I'm saying that the value from that ability is comparatively weak to a lot of other leader abilities, especially considering how many other sources of builder charges you can get in a game.
So, it sounds like the designers made China pretty accurately. An isolationist civ that plays very defensively, with slight bonuses to science and culture. I love how you say the Great Wall can be useful if you are getting invaded in the early game, which was the original purpose of the Great Wall.
Sounds correct. Glad that China had some "pro-gamers" throughout history to make full use of its abilities.
Great Wall is a defensive structure but also a fortified supply line for offensive operations into the steppe.
The builder charge does allow Stonehenge on deity, which is otherwise almost impossible to get with any other civ
So what? That wonder is still the worst im the game and totally unnecessary.
@@redfella1527 it's gets a free religion very early,so it's not the worse it's actually pretty good
@@ricraftz76 so what? What's the purpose of an early religion, which you just have in one city and can't even spread without a shrine?
@@redfella1527 all wonders achievement
Religions provide a large amount of yields you otherwise wouldn’t have. Interfaith dialogue, meeting houses etc. Also, getting a guaranteed religion means that’s one more AI that doesn’t get those bonuses on deity. I think you’re criminally undervaluing religions in Civ 6 if you think securing Stonehenge on deity isn’t valuable.
China seems to be built for longer than standard games (in a similar vein for how Gilgamesh seems to be built for human against AI). I find on Marathon games, it's not too hard to get most of the Eurekas, as many require interaction with the map, and you have more time to move the units around to get them.
Ah, but those builder charges do add up over time...
True, but there are so many other ways to get builder charges in a game that the +1 becomes less and less valuable.
The +1 is most valuable and significant at the start
Yeah I'd have to disagree with his opinion on the first emperor I find it to be an amazing ability for the early game and especially if you've got a good spot for the great wall
@@TheSaxyGamer Most games I play as China I can get nearly every Ancient and Classical era wonder which gives me a large boost. I do play on easier difficulties but the point still stands.
@@etherealsouls9318 nope, because on higher difficulties the AI tends to rush wonders.
My great wall provides 6 gold and 4 culture, i have like 400 culture per turn before ad on Deity. Generally agree though that China is pretty underpowered, but one of the most fun to play imo since you can consistently get the few early game wonders you'd want and thus get a gameplan going and the great wall is just sexy if you can get it going well and have enough pop and cities. The insane culture output you can get also means that you get to building civic wonders before anyone else can. More wonders means even more culture via theater squares plus whatever the wonder provides, so you can see where this is going.
The Zeus Temple and update made China extremely strong, should be at least B+ tier now.
I combined Great Wall with Petra once on desert tiles, it was decent. But that is very situational.
The thing is, to have Magnus you cant have anyone else. China allows you to get most of that ability and still get the 10% science/culture guy in your capital
until the modern era I get nearly every Heureka and inspiration. thats the way I play. with the chinese bonus I totally rush through the tech and culture tree.
I think you've found a word and fallen in love with it
Best Civ in epic/marathon speed.
I don't know if I'd say best Civ, but they do definitely get better on the slower game speeds and worse on the quicker ones.
Sumeria
I get the golden age perk where you can get builders with faith. I get the religious perk where wonders give you 4 faith. You can then spam workers with faith to build wonders effortlessly, even in cities with no production. Just gotta make sure you get Stonehenge, which is pretty easy since you can start building it from turn 1, which is the other advantage of spending builder charges on Wonders, you can start production on wonders before you unlock the tech
You say that "because Magnus exists" he is inferior to everyone using that. But, what if you arent near forests in the early game? Nothing to chop then. Also, you can use the builder charges in combination with Magnus or Liang. Instead of using chops to build on Wonders, you can instead use them to create other builders. With Magnus that's an easy 1 chop=1 builder. Then you can just gangbang the wonder with all the charges you've stacked up through mass producing builders. Similar with Liang though possibly not as good, each builder you create will have 1 more charge for you to use. This is bumped up 1 more if you manage to get Pyramids early on, not to mention the 2 free builders it gives you. Usually I don't plan city placements around wonders, but its worth it to have a flat desert tile in range if it means I can get Pyramids before anyone else. And think about the massive line of Great Wall improvements you can make towards the mid- and end-game with the charge boosts from Serfdom and Public Works.
To add to my comment, what's really cool about the builder charges for wonders is that it's percentage based. This means that you can make a city in the middle of the desert and with 3 builders make Petra in less than 10 turns even though it says it would take you 226, giving you one of the most efficient cities in the game.
Yeah not to mention now gathering storm is nerfing Magnus which I think will inadvertently buff china not to mention the Pingala changes
I usually completely agree with what you say, but I disagree with your opinion on The First Emperor. It’s fantastic on Diety to beat out the AI for wonders. And an extra builder charge is a great bonus that really adds up over time. You practically get 10 free builders by the end of the game
Dynastic Cycle can be pretty when playing multiplayer teams, as long as you and your teammate(s) communicate so that you can get more eurekas/inspirations. Not overpowered, but when played right in teams it becomes a pretty noticeable bonus.
PetraCity+ChineseWall is really good
Why don't they let you build the great wall on the path's rivers use?
Defensive bonus applies when someone crosses from the tile.
It should also stop movement in early eras.
Maybe each tile has a blue health bar and must be broken down.
He feels like a base game leader, I don't have Rise and Fall, so Qin Shi Huang's first ability is a lot more useful
Why did he mention the warriors monks you get on his religion for a fighting unit. I would like to know more depth in that unit.
It’s not a Chinese unique unit.
So is China like a 4-5 city civilization? I'm fairly new to the game, won science with Rome and Culture with Gorgo, but I've been struggling to find a civ to play Gathering storm with, and what type of victory I want.
hope there's a balancing patch for leaders.
+5% eureka
+1 era score will help a lot
The long term benefit of the builder charge is whichever ancient and classical wonders you can spam before they are obsolete. Just like ghandi loses relevance on small player count games, China loses its relevance in deity when the AI can beat you to wonders.
Still better than Egypt for wonders
u say it only does 15% But u can do it multiple times which means 1 builder with 4 charges (u can get 5 if u get the advisor and even 6 if u get the pyramids) can pretty much cut a wonder down by 60% at minimum if u have all 6 thats 90% reduction
Yeah, 15% per charge. The point I was making was that you could in most cases finish a wonder in only 3 or 4 chops, but using the ability would only get you to 60%, so it is a bit less effective than chopping.
Perhaps if the ability was buffed slightly to provide, say, +20% per charge? Or would that cross over the line into OP?
I think +20% would be a nice change. I'd almost even go as far as to say that +25% would be okay. The ability is around for such a short time that I think it would be a good thing to have it be very strong while it is around.
You can't complete the wall with a City outside it unfortunately
Really wish they chose another leader. Other than the Great Wall, Qin Shi Huang was the person who united China but I don’t think that historical aspect shows here since his unique tile improvement and unit promotes a more defensive play style
Shoulda use cao cao
But would Cao Cao fit the play style on this version of China tho?
@@kaishiyang6888 no they would have to be more domination civ I think
If you hit all Eurekas and Inspirations, the 10% additional cost reduction is equivalent to a 20 % yield increase.
If a tech costs 100 Science, it cost 60 with eureka usually, but 50 now.
I.e. you having 5 Science per Turn you need 10 Turns to research it. Someone else with 6 Science need 10 Turns too.
Unfortunately, the Strength of this Bonus gets reduces worse then linear from not having all Inspirations/Eurekas.
If you have x% of the Eurekas, then the Bonus will be (100-0.4x)/(100-0.5x)*100-100 %.
If you hit 50% of the Eurekas, that is 80/75 *100 -100 % = 6.6%
You need to hit 2/3 of all Inspirations to get the 10% Saladin gets if he has his religious building in all cities.
As a side effect of playing POE, I tend to notice multiplicity bonus. The 20% bonus is multiplied by other increase in science, although you only a few increase, Pingala, Oxford, and Amundsen-Scott Research Station.
Normally I like your videos, but to be honest, your biases are really showing on this one. China gets a very early tile improvement for culture and gold, which adds tourism later on. If you ring your empire with the Great Wall chain (which you should be doing for defense and to get all that sweet culture), you're looking at a huge tourism boost. Tourism is one of the areas where it is hard to get massive boosts: you need relics, works of art, artifacts, wonders, that sort of thing, and these are hard to get, and come late.
Also, those Great Wall tiles get two gold each. Yes, if you ignore the Great Wall, you lose out on, on average, 3-6 tiles per city, meaning you don't get the extra 6-12 culture and gold. Per city.
Writing off the Great Wall is a mistake for the cultural victory. China deserves better than average on that one victory type.
You also have to keep in mind though that if you choose to build Great Walls, not only do you lose out on the ability to build farms/mines etc, but you also must be working the tile to gain any bonuses from the Great Wall, tourism included. I would argue that tourism is actually quite easy to get in later eras, as seaside resorts and national parks become available. For instance, if you are able to get Cristo Redentor, a single seaside resort can provide upwards of 10 tourism on a single tile. That is almost infinitely better than having to use 5 tiles, being worked by 5 citizens, to receive the same benefit.
I can see China having problems to work the Great Wall tiles, but they're IN ADDITION of seaside resorts and other sources of tourism. Plus they have some extra tourism from early wonders. Moreover, seaside resorts have much difficult requirements to place (appeal-based, plain coastal tiles), and although Cristo Redentor is a must for lots of culture victories, you can't count on always having a wonder.
I just think China needs to find sources of food/housing/amenities to work the Great Wall tiles, and that's all.
I don't know, to me this one seems pretty accurate. Especially compared to other civs. I personally hate the wall, I rather use the build charges for luxury resources to sell or mines. It will pay off much more than just going for a wall. I rather grow my cities early on so I would never focus culture anyway. Only reason I would build the wall is to suddenly have an increase in tourism later on. How can you compare this bonus to the other culture bonus civs? I would rather play trajan or kongo for culture.
Great works are not hard to come by, and you can start getting them early game, very early with some Civs (like Russia with their lavra). The wall is not very useful, and there are usually better things to build that provide more benefits for your empire. That said, the wall, on desert tiles with Petra affecting them make some very good tiles. Other than that, the wall is not useful.
He really let himself go after killing Hades.
The worker wonder boost is godly if you found a city in the middle of the desert then Petra rush it
I have to strongly disagree with you on China's abilities. Yes, the Crouching Tiger and Great Wall are pretty bad, and purely defensive uniques like these are made even more pointless by the fact that the AI doesn't really ever pose a military threat in which "turtling up" would be a necessary or useful strategy. The abilities, though, are both pretty good, and I believe you are underestimating them:
The First Emperor - The extra builder charges do add up. They will mean more in the early game, but this is a consistent and useful bonus which will be with you throughout the entire game. It is very close in benefit to starting with a free Pyramids wonder from turn 1. The wonder rushing ability is also pretty good, as well as a lot of fun. Magnus chops have been nerfed a bit now (100% to 50%), and they do require you to both have Magnus established and sacrifice your forests (which will yield more the later you chop them). The direct wonder production boost from workers is easily accessible and flexible, as it allows you to rush wonders wherever you like, independently from city terrain and the availability of forests. It does only work for wonders from the first couple of eras, but there are quite a few of those, many of which are quite good.
Dynastic Cycle - Again, this is a bonus which will help you from the very beginning throughout the entire game. I don't agree that getting Inspirations and Eurekas is something you can not consistently do. I believe most experienced players will exploit this mechanic for everything it is worth, actively pursuing boosts, and switching out research half-way to wait for the boost to finish it off. You also get boosts from other sources, such as Great Scientists. Overall, I believe in most of the games I play, I get boosts for a clear majority of the civics and techs I research.
Play him you only need to do one thing, find a desert and Petra rush. No civ in any difficulty can stop you.
I wish China got an alternate leader
Did they buff China since this?
They added a bit more yields to the great wall but that's all
Yeah but 33% more build charges is just more better.
Although its counter productive. I do love using china, building the great wall and just beef up my defense. Then I go to war with everyone at once. Test out the defense lol
Really dislike China overall. After the classical they feel like a vanilla civ albeit with better workers.
To be honest as a Chinese I really DON'T like what they've done with China. Not because of the reasons you mentioned tho, but for the fact that they completely ignore China's ability to overwhelm much more powerful opponents military and science-wise through culture alone. It would be much more accurate and interesting if this cultural-syncretism is presented, rather than some small eureka boosts nonsense.