On mussys is it better to build your anchor on top of or under the permanent gear? I’ve heard that if you build your anchor on top it can potentially cross load the carabiner on the chain links below. In this video it looks like you have one point over and one under though since your setup has rings. At sand rock where the accident occurred a few weeks ago, there are usually no rings- just some single tight chain links that are difficult to get even small carabiners into. I’ve been trying to debate whether I should clip under or over the mussys within these links- if I go underneath (between the hooks and the rock,) the system is very hard to undo when I’m weighting the mussys without a PAS like you’ve shown here, but if I go over I’ve been told it could crossload. There also isn’t much space for a PAS since the links are so tight. Becomes crowded quickly. Been trying to figure out best practice for setting quads there, especially because of the recent accident. If it would help I could post a video or photo of the anchor setup there. Guides at the rock have told me conflicting info on whether they clip over or under. Would love to hear your/others’ thoughts.
@noahjacobs7486 I will actually be there this weekend to take some photos and teach an @amgausa Single Pitch Instructor course and assessment. So maybe let me get back to you after this since it is a very specific scenario. And make sure you stay on me about commenting on here!
@@noahjacobs7486 the anchor in question actually had rings that could have been clipped with a carabiner and easy to remove. Clipping under will likely be best in most cases as cross loaded carabiners are not that strong. That being said I had to run a cord through some bolts to prevent carabiners from being cross loaded on an anchor while I was there. So there is no one type of solution that works for all situations.
the reason to use a PAS/cowtail is that a lot of sport climbers, and not just beginners, don't actually understand the physics of what they're doing and are just going by memory....skipping a step or changing the sequence can often lead to confusion and confusion can lead to an accident. this "by the book" stance is sadly becoming more and more prevalent by the day. couple of examples: when leading if i get all the way to the chains and have a nice solid stance I'll skip the prescribed pair of quickdraws and go straight to clipping in with my cowtail, less clutter......and i often get berated by other climbers for my "dangerous and irresponsible" behavior. trying to explain doesn't help. one lady even threatened to out me on climbing groups as a danger at crag. recently belayed a friend on her first lead and she wanted to clean the anchor as well. so i taught her the simple method of passing a bight of rope through the ring, tying a knot and clipping it to the belay loop with a locker and only then untying the rope from the harness. vety safe as the rope is always in the system and there is no fear of dropping it. to keep things easy i had her do a simple overhand knot in the bight. short and easy route where i could watch every step.....as she was lowering down a climbing instructor a couple of routes over spotted the overhand knot and totally freaked out....and again, explaining didn't help, i was being unsafe and irresponsible by teaching her anything other than the holy figure 8.
There is definitely a lot of misinformation out there and I hope my channel can debunk some of it. Yea really unfortunate about the overhand thing. You are 100% correct that it is fine in that situation. And the reason it is fine is the tail is super long. The only reason I might choose an 8 would be the fact that it is a little easier to untie. But that is about it. I usually use an overhand for simplicity.
I do take a pas since I lead not top rope so don’t know what’s at the top. Sometimes untying is required, I have never seen a mussy hook in the countries I climb in. I learned lead immediately not top rope so perhaps I am missing a trick, why HMS biners to the bolts/ rings? Seems offset d would be good there.
I generally carry HMS style carabiners since they can be use for either. However offset D has a more limited use. You are correct that this would be the application for them.
@soaringibex , it really depends on how the carabiners are oriented and if the gates will be impeded, also what type of chain or rings. So thought to say in global terms.
Question: I noticed when you used a quad anchor, you clipped both carabiners into the same two loops ( the center section of the sling). I've always done one locking carabiner on each of the two middle sections of the quad. Thoughts on one way over the other?
Yea, I don’t see a need for them to be in separate strands and sometimes they can bind up on each other. So generally I’ll just use two strands which actually keeps the anchor redundant and easy to move through the plane of force.
Recently, I lowered myself off mussy hooks using my gri gri. Halfway through, I experienced a large swing. Not sure what happened? But was it on the mussy hooks? I'm not sure if there was a curly Q situation and one of the strands popped out, or if it just was a weight distribution kind of thing. But it was the first (and so far only) time that I lowered off these hooks...
Why not just two opposite and opposed quick draws clipped to the two bolts for top roping? Maybe a teeny tiny bit less safe (if you really somehow manage to accidentally unclip opposed non-locking carabiners).
I'm not an expert, but it's my understanding that it's okay to use quickdraws under these circumstances: First, you must be able to see the bolts, to ensure your gates don't accidentally open, or the rope doesn't accidentally create one of those Q twists he was talking about, and become unclipped. Lockers eliminate this risk, and should always be used when the anchor is out of sight. Second, the bolts must be equal height, and close spacing, just like the bolts in this video. If the bolts are uneven, one quickdraw and bolt are supporting the entire force, and if they break, it can shock load the unloaded bolt and quickdraw. If the bolts are spaced too far apart, the angle created by using short quickdraws is too wide, and can multiply the forces put on each draw by over 100% in some cases. Last, you want no chance of rockfall or other debris falling, and landing on your quickdraw gates. This one is pretty obvious. Basically, for shorter, well bolted, and we'll maintained routes, two quickdraws are fine. Personally, I have the things to build an anchor, so that's what I'm going to do. I believe it's just good practice. But I've climbed with people that used quickdraws, and as long as those 3 things were met, I felt completely safe.
Because (normal draws) would not end up significantly below the mussies. The fact that your anchor point is well below the mussy hooks is what makes this system safe, because: You can clip the musses and weight them BEFORE undoing any of your own gear.
It's often easier to clean the setup he shows here. If the last climber is going to lead, just lower off a couple of quickdraws, but consider this if someone is going to clean after top-roping.
Back in the 80s, we used to climb on featherweight hollow aluminum caribbeaners. And never had a problem with them breaking. Why would you want to carry a 10 ton weight on your belt?
Can we please just stop using take as a command for tensioning the rope? Take and slack sound dangerously similar. Calling "tension" is much less likely to be confusing.
I think the problem with this is that the rings then get top ropes on and wear very quickly in these high traffic areas. So developers have gone to this to prevent accidents with the former.
But one could argue an experienced person could just solo the route and not use any gear. Of course I could have dealt with the miss-application of the single locker. But I don’t think that is the point here.
@howtoclimb but to use it the way they did is simple and safe, you get a good stance, which that route has a huge jug at the anchor, and you unlock the carabiner, and then just remove the carabiner from the bolt likely dumping the rope from it at the same time. The woman obviously just did something awkward, which could be done with your method here as well, for example if they could put the rope through the mussies backwards, which is far more likely with this big sling and 4 carabiners introducing all sorts of extra busyness at the anchor.
Solid. Completely agree with not adding additional possible points of failure / error (PAS). Great video
Great video!!!
On mussys is it better to build your anchor on top of or under the permanent gear? I’ve heard that if you build your anchor on top it can potentially cross load the carabiner on the chain links below. In this video it looks like you have one point over and one under though since your setup has rings.
At sand rock where the accident occurred a few weeks ago, there are usually no rings- just some single tight chain links that are difficult to get even small carabiners into. I’ve been trying to debate whether I should clip under or over the mussys within these links- if I go underneath (between the hooks and the rock,) the system is very hard to undo when I’m weighting the mussys without a PAS like you’ve shown here, but if I go over I’ve been told it could crossload. There also isn’t much space for a PAS since the links are so tight. Becomes crowded quickly. Been trying to figure out best practice for setting quads there, especially because of the recent accident.
If it would help I could post a video or photo of the anchor setup there. Guides at the rock have told me conflicting info on whether they clip over or under. Would love to hear your/others’ thoughts.
I have the same question. 👍
@noahjacobs7486 I will actually be there this weekend to take some photos and teach an @amgausa Single Pitch Instructor course and assessment. So maybe let me get back to you after this since it is a very specific scenario. And make sure you stay on me about commenting on here!
Wanted to check in on this! Did you come to a conclusion
@@noahjacobs7486 the anchor in question actually had rings that could have been clipped with a carabiner and easy to remove. Clipping under will likely be best in most cases as cross loaded carabiners are not that strong.
That being said I had to run a cord through some bolts to prevent carabiners from being cross loaded on an anchor while I was there.
So there is no one type of solution that works for all situations.
Excellent video! Definitely a video all new outdoor climbers should view. :)
Fore sure!
Great video. Let's hope this goes out to a wide audience.
Thanks John, I am hoping folks see it as well!
the reason to use a PAS/cowtail is that a lot of sport climbers, and not just beginners, don't actually understand the physics of what they're doing and are just going by memory....skipping a step or changing the sequence can often lead to confusion and confusion can lead to an accident. this "by the book" stance is sadly becoming more and more prevalent by the day. couple of examples:
when leading if i get all the way to the chains and have a nice solid stance I'll skip the prescribed pair of quickdraws and go straight to clipping in with my cowtail, less clutter......and i often get berated by other climbers for my "dangerous and irresponsible" behavior. trying to explain doesn't help. one lady even threatened to out me on climbing groups as a danger at crag.
recently belayed a friend on her first lead and she wanted to clean the anchor as well. so i taught her the simple method of passing a bight of rope through the ring, tying a knot and clipping it to the belay loop with a locker and only then untying the rope from the harness. vety safe as the rope is always in the system and there is no fear of dropping it. to keep things easy i had her do a simple overhand knot in the bight. short and easy route where i could watch every step.....as she was lowering down a climbing instructor a couple of routes over spotted the overhand knot and totally freaked out....and again, explaining didn't help, i was being unsafe and irresponsible by teaching her anything other than the holy figure 8.
There is definitely a lot of misinformation out there and I hope my channel can debunk some of it.
Yea really unfortunate about the overhand thing. You are 100% correct that it is fine in that situation. And the reason it is fine is the tail is super long. The only reason I might choose an 8 would be the fact that it is a little easier to untie. But that is about it. I usually use an overhand for simplicity.
Great video thank you!
Hi, what the name of the fixed protection on the left (the one uneven and linked by a chain)? What are it uses?
thanks! crystal clear!
Great information thanks
Your welcome!
Thank you.
Your welcome!
I do take a pas since I lead not top rope so don’t know what’s at the top. Sometimes untying is required, I have never seen a mussy hook in the countries I climb in. I learned lead immediately not top rope so perhaps I am missing a trick, why HMS biners to the bolts/ rings? Seems offset d would be good there.
I generally carry HMS style carabiners since they can be use for either. However offset D has a more limited use. You are correct that this would be the application for them.
Could you use the same single locking carabiner system that you used in the chains video (university student cleaning fatality).
No. You wouldn’t want to use that system.
Thanks for the video. Do you have a preference for clipping the carabiners above or below the chains?
@soaringibex , it really depends on how the carabiners are oriented and if the gates will be impeded, also what type of chain or rings. So thought to say in global terms.
Question: I noticed when you used a quad anchor, you clipped both carabiners into the same two loops ( the center section of the sling). I've always done one locking carabiner on each of the two middle sections of the quad. Thoughts on one way over the other?
Yea, I don’t see a need for them to be in separate strands and sometimes they can bind up on each other. So generally I’ll just use two strands which actually keeps the anchor redundant and easy to move through the plane of force.
Good info here!
Thx!
Recently, I lowered myself off mussy hooks using my gri gri. Halfway through, I experienced a large swing. Not sure what happened? But was it on the mussy hooks? I'm not sure if there was a curly Q situation and one of the strands popped out, or if it just was a weight distribution kind of thing. But it was the first (and so far only) time that I lowered off these hooks...
That is interesting for sure. I assume you couldn’t see the hooks after it happens to know if one unclipped?
@@howtoclimb no, I could not.
How dangerous is it to do this setup with non lockers?
Why not just two opposite and opposed quick draws clipped to the two bolts for top roping? Maybe a teeny tiny bit less safe (if you really somehow manage to accidentally unclip opposed non-locking carabiners).
I'm not an expert, but it's my understanding that it's okay to use quickdraws under these circumstances:
First, you must be able to see the bolts, to ensure your gates don't accidentally open, or the rope doesn't accidentally create one of those Q twists he was talking about, and become unclipped. Lockers eliminate this risk, and should always be used when the anchor is out of sight.
Second, the bolts must be equal height, and close spacing, just like the bolts in this video. If the bolts are uneven, one quickdraw and bolt are supporting the entire force, and if they break, it can shock load the unloaded bolt and quickdraw. If the bolts are spaced too far apart, the angle created by using short quickdraws is too wide, and can multiply the forces put on each draw by over 100% in some cases.
Last, you want no chance of rockfall or other debris falling, and landing on your quickdraw gates. This one is pretty obvious.
Basically, for shorter, well bolted, and we'll maintained routes, two quickdraws are fine.
Personally, I have the things to build an anchor, so that's what I'm going to do. I believe it's just good practice. But I've climbed with people that used quickdraws, and as long as those 3 things were met, I felt completely safe.
Because (normal draws) would not end up significantly below the mussies.
The fact that your anchor point is well below the mussy hooks is what makes this system safe, because:
You can clip the musses and weight them BEFORE undoing any of your own gear.
It's often easier to clean the setup he shows here. If the last climber is going to lead, just lower off a couple of quickdraws, but consider this if someone is going to clean after top-roping.
Back in the 80s, we used to climb on featherweight hollow aluminum caribbeaners. And never had a problem with them breaking. Why would you want to carry a 10 ton weight on your belt?
These are fixed on the anchors. Mostly in sport areas where there is high traffic and lots of folks lower off.
Can we please just stop using take as a command for tensioning the rope? Take and slack sound dangerously similar. Calling "tension" is much less likely to be confusing.
Could you position yourself so just your shadow is visible next time. Keep the vocal instructions though.
Also. Awesome tips.
Lighting has been an issue in the studio. I’ll try to work on it more.
@@howtoclimb I thought I was being funny... I loved the video. Great solution to preventing another accident.
@@Wyrmfather lol. Well it was late and I didn’t get the humor. 🤦♂️ but now that I have coffee! I love it!
Get rid of them and leave the rings. Single pitch lead climbing just used two opposing sport draws on the rings.
I think the problem with this is that the rings then get top ropes on and wear very quickly in these high traffic areas. So developers have gone to this to prevent accidents with the former.
@@howtoclimbdo people really top rope through the rings directly? I have never seen such poor form in person.
An experienced person can just as safely do this with the sand rock accident setup(one carabiner), this discussion is bullshit.
But one could argue an experienced person could just solo the route and not use any gear. Of course I could have dealt with the miss-application of the single locker. But I don’t think that is the point here.
@howtoclimb but to use it the way they did is simple and safe, you get a good stance, which that route has a huge jug at the anchor, and you unlock the carabiner, and then just remove the carabiner from the bolt likely dumping the rope from it at the same time.
The woman obviously just did something awkward, which could be done with your method here as well, for example if they could put the rope through the mussies backwards, which is far more likely with this big sling and 4 carabiners introducing all sorts of extra busyness at the anchor.