I'm currently running a Level 20 game with a barbarian in it. The barbarian has a Belt of Storm Giant Strength, so base strength score of 29. They can use their strength score in place of the result of a roll when it comes to skill checks. Like grappling. I threw a Tarrasque at the barbarian, alone, just to see what happened. The barbarian climbed onto its back and the Tarrasque could not shake it. I ruled that it meant it could really only be attacked with its claws rather than the bite or tail, due to their positioning. They got within about 10 HP of killing the thing solo. Just because of the way they climbed on and grappled the thing.
I mean inanimate objects already have hit points so if you use the cover rule technically there already is destroyable cover. That being said it would be nice if they mentioned that or redirected you to the chapter about that.
I recall an old story where the DM advises the party that the monster they were fighting had a bunch of hit points left, then a player asked how much HP the bridge the monster was standing on had.
Tumble/Overrun are very tactically useful. You dont incur attacks of opportunity from leaving a creatures space, just exiting their reach. So moving to the far side of them does not incur that attack of opportunity. Flanking as it is I feel takes to much out of the mechanics of some classes, such as samarai fighters or path of the wolf totem barbarians, are no longer useful because its so easy for advantage as is. So I changed flanking in my game to be a +2 per person adjacent to a max of +6. Now it stacks with advantage. Also do note that if it works for PCs, then it works for Monsters. Kobolds with an extra +6 to hit and advantage against lvl1 parties. >:) Shove Aside I just incorporated in the normal shove rules without the disadvantage, and it is perfectly balanced so far (4.5yr campaign). Disarm is useful, and does not take away from battlemaster, cause it takes an action. Battlemaster can do it as part of an attack, that can be an attack action or attack of opportunity.
The party has to escape but the rogue is caught behind enemy lines. Or the enemy wizard is behind a line of henchmen and the barbarian wants to get at him. Or the kidnapped villager is about to be sacrificed and a line of cultists stands in your way. All good times for using tumble or overrun I would think
the tumble and overrun are with conjunction with the rule moving through hostile creatures Moving Around Other Creatures You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the section.
I had a paladin with an extremely high AC and used Overrun rules to go into the center of a group of enemies, and hit two other than the one that I hit, basically causing all of them to hit me(and miss)
Absolutely have thrown these into my 5.1 E mix. More combat options and variability that doesn't rely on magic is great. Lion and Dragon's parry rules are fantastic in this regard. They've also become part of my 5.1.
Marking looks really powerfull for a rogue where he can get a free attack of oportunity granting sneakattack and still have his reaction for uncanny dodge or whatever
It's definitely an upgrade for all melee characters. Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians in particular get a boost, as they tend to have the best OAs. Conversely, ranged characters suffer just a bit, as melee foes become a bit more dangerous. Many complain about the superiority of ranged combat in 5E. The Marking mechanic is one way one might rein this in a bit. I recall that 5E's generous movement rules, including the absence of marking, was one thing that felt odd when we first began playing it.
I think overrun and tumble would be interesting additions if when you win the contest of skills you can either knock down the creature or have advantage on your next attack, but by failing you fall in front of the creature and recieve an opportunity attack made with advantage. This way it's a high-risk high-reward kind of move, which I think should be.
I love this idea, and I wrote a rule that is probably way too wordy, but I like it. > A creature can use an action or bonus action to attempt to move through a hostile creature's space. > If a creature attempts to overrun another creature, it makes a Strength (Athletics) check, which the other creature can contest with either a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the defending creature looses the contest, they are knocked prone and cannot make an opportunity attack against the attacker. If the defending creature wins the contest they may immediately use their reaction to make an opportunity attack against the attacking creature, and if they won using Strength (Athletics) the attacking creature is also knocked prone, and the opportunity attack is made with advantage. A creature attempting to overrun a creature one size larger than them makes the roll with disadvantage, while a creature attempting to overrun a creature at least one size smaller than them make the roll with advantage. > If a creature attempts to tumble past another creature, it must succeed on a Dexterity (Acrobatics) contest with the opposing creature. If the tumbling creature wins the contest, they may move through the hostile creature's space and the opposing creature cannot make an opportunity attack against them. If the other creature wins the contest, they may use their reaction to immediately make an opportunity attack against the tumbling creature. I like allowing overrun to be contested by Acrobatics, because it makes it more like the shove action, but with a bit of a higher risk. The changes would sort of enable someone to abuse this to get a free shove and then make multiple attacks against a prone opponent, but I would rule they just can't do that and can only use this to keep running past that enemy.
Pretty sure they intent of these options is to move to the other side of an opponent. No opportunity attack if you don't leave the creatures 5ft radius. Useful if you get cornered by opponents or want to position to flank a creature in a narrow passage. Use it to evade some pack tactics, break ambushes etc. Its a good optional rule for cqb type dungeons. I have one coming up and navigating enemies to create openings for the party will be key.
honestly never seen people taking longer on their turns with flanking in 5e, thou i feel it makes alot of abilities redundant and we just add a +4 to hit instead
Moepsii yeah the extra time being a problem is never an actual reason. I personally think the redundancy is a good thing. Save your more situational advantage giving abilities for when you get caught out.
"Removes that sort of uniqueness" The uniqueness was dealing damage while disarming... like eveything else the battle master does, tripping while doing damage, shoving while doing damage.
I meant more that disarming is only allowed if your a battle master. If you're anyone else the DM has to opt to use a variant rule to allow it. I'd say in most games a battle master is the only one who'd be able to disarm
@@NerdImmersion but its not like shoving is treated so special either though, its allowed as long as you drop the damage per attack used. BM doing the attacks damage, with dice anyway seems to be their thing. I simply run a fair game with my players, if they can benefit from something, so can i. Flanking, disarming, called shots, etc. Essentially i let them decide how complicated combats gonna be.
@@NerdImmersion but think of this, why should a unique sub set of fighter be the only people in the dnd universe who can disarm people? To disarm is to potentially end a combat in a peaceful manner. Its a big story opportunity.
If the mark rule made opportunity attacks against other non-marked targets at disadvantage it would be a cool trade off for the player. Maybe being marked would negate the disengage action for the price of not being able to opportunity attack other enemies in range as well that would be cool for a character that wants to duel opponents.
@@anthonynorman7545 I was unfamiliar with the swashbuckler till you commented, but after looking I think it would work weirdly with their fancy footwork trait. However the trait is worded as if the swashbuckler would go in, attack, then retreat out of range, not allowing the enemy to make the marked action at all. I do think it might be a bit powerful if any enemy were able to make this action, maybe making a variant for the dueling fighting style would be good.
Cleave is wonderful in how it is never in danger of messing with game balance, but incredibly satisfying when it does happen (and since the players will always be excited to get it to go off, it is also not a GM headache). It also gives strength melee characters something only they can do. To me cleave on enemy brutes also symbolizes why you don't send a bunch of regular rabble after certain threats, and it is a demonstration of how adventurers came to be. Since most level appropriate enemies are damage sponges in d&d, cleave will only occasionally mean something when it really counts, and then only a small bit of extra damage.
Tumble and overrun are for getting through someone where there is no other path like in a blocked doorway or being surrounded. The destructible cover isn’t explicitly mentioned but guidelines for objects HP/AC are in the DMG so they’re already in the game if you wanna go that route.
Overrun and Tumble can be beneficial in a handful of scenarios. Remembering that opportunity attacks occur when you leave the engagement range of a creature. A. You are completely surrounded and are trying to escape your captors. Action to disengage and bonus action to Overrun/Tumble depending on what stat is higher or what makes the most sense to the DM. B. You enter a narrow corridor, a mere 5-feet wide. Up ahead a creature blocks your path. The use of Overrun/Tumble allows the players a chance at avoiding combat and begin a chase. These variant rules are also very fun if you spice them up with a little homebrew. Overrun. When you exceed an Overrun attempt by 5, the creature is knocked prone. Tumble. When you exceed a Tumble attempt by 5, the creature does not get an opportunity attack on you. I've also heard some DMs impose disadvantage if you pick up a weapon and attack with it in the same turn or picking up a disarmed weapon costs half your movement. I like the idea of a penalty to the Disarm rule because it makes the players consider different tactical advantages they may be able to get.
I like flanking like many others do, however I feel that the version of +1 per flanking ally to a cap made more sense and feels better than just advantage. If you swarm an enemy it would make sense that they are less likely to defend against attacks from many directions as they would just facing someone one on one. Since it's opposite sides the size of the creature sets the cap on a grid since only so many melee combatants can get close enough on that side. I think it also means that if the players are fighting a large creature in a setting where you can give them weak npc's for assistance (town guard for example) these guys may not do much damage but they can provide flanking and soak damage if the players are having trouble.
The overrun and tumble is so you cant be surrounded with no option of escape but downing a bad guy. These are interesting and in a very low magic game could help to spice up combat. Great video.
For Overrun -- I recently had this come up in a game. The party was fighting a hag in a cabin. The hag needed to move to another room to grab an item, but a PC was in the doorway. Since you can't move through a hostile creature's space, I had the hag make Acrobatics checks to try to slip past the PC in the doorway, contested by an Athletics roll by the PC. It definitely doesn't come up often, but in clustered rooms, it can become important that creatures can't move through other hostile creatures' spaces.
Also i think overrun/tumblng makes more sense if the enemy is blocking a doorway or something, especially if you do not intend to move past them but to impart flanking for your allies. I gave my players the option to use marking and they completely forgot about it. It's mostly good for GISH users
@@kylethomas9130 I had a DM use it against me despite my sharpshooter. Ended up shooting an ally. Thankfully it was a ragin barbarian and I rolled low for damage
Mark was the tanking mechanic that 4e used, it worked similar to the cavalier and barbarian of the ancient spirits effects that grant disadvantage to attack others
Mark I can see as being something you need to study to effectively run in a game. The way I see it, different classes could benefit. You would want the enemies to be using this a lot too. Fighters: Could us maneuvers or even the new fighting style that lets you reduce damage Rogues: Scouts can move way and everyone else can half damage on one attack Paladins: Defensive fighting style and shield spell are still able to be used Barbarians: Can move away with the new variant or return fire later on. Spell casters have ton reactions. Tumble and overrun, shove aside are for people using battlemaps with tons of things going on. Pushing people into hole or harmful spot, trying to move through hallway or choke point. Rush into a room, 25 feet wide, 45 feet back. Wall to wall 10 feet ahead is a defender line of shield wielding foes, behind them the villain holds a NPC hostage, they are tied over a fire pit by rope, the man is manically cutting the rope. Start a turn 20 Lair action for the rope, with 3 turns till breaks. Roll initiative. Overrun or tumble in this time sensitive situation might be the best way to get through, as the rogue could bonus action tumble, main action disengage to get past the shield line.
The overrun and tumble are something you use in conjunction with moving through hostile creatures quote from basic rules Moving Around Other Creatures You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the section.
About disarm; Yes the fighter gets one maneuver to do that after an attack that deals an extra dice of damage. But the fighter also gets a maneuver for knocking someone prone after an attack that deals an extra dice of damage. And that is already a action in the game. Battle Master is doing things that would cost one attack. Also, Battle Master's disarm is a STR-ST; While the action disarm will cost the entire action, so no damage done that round, and it's a attack roll vs a skill check and the target may choose between two skills. You're not making the battle mater worst by having the disarm action as a option, and it's a cool thing monsters could do. Just imagine a goblin running away with the +1 wand of the war mage the wiz just got, how crazy the adventurers would go after that guy.
You might want to look up rules clarification before doing this in the future. The overrun and tumble don't give an opportunity attack unless you fail the check. The first time I had the jester do this and pop up in the fighters face before tumbling away was priceless. In one of those hardcover books that you don't read very often is also a fun rule for harming the foot of a much larger foe as they attack your players as an opportunity attack. Fun and hidden in the body of another ability. Have fun finding it.
I think overrun and tumble are interesting in that they are super situational, but maybe useful if there's just an object behind a creature that they're guarding. Or you could take the disengage action in combination with this to save movement speed.
Makes sense since that's equal to half cover anyways. Edit: though I honestly doubt it's needed since it's doubtful all those enemies will be lined up unless they use Pact Tactics and even then it's still doubtful. And if they are all lined up it's much easier to just AoE kill them.
@@isaackarr6576 depends on the system, but for big bonuses id use -5. Making firearm feats and you can use piercing shot there, if the shot shoots through at +5 your oppnents ac, and itll suffer -5 to hit the one behind for half the orignal shots damage. Or another where you can empty more clip for just one attack but each successive shot will suffer -5 but it can crit despite bonuses and can still be high rolls after. This is a high cost for dealing extra attacks. -2 is pretty free and lackluster, id say, i woudlnt give it much of a bonus for such an inconsequential penalty. Even on vanilla though, -5 to hit for flat 10 is pretty common... if you really wanted to scale it down, by the example given... -2 to hit, for +4, as the damage is double the negative to hit. As for dnds dice rules... a shield provides a bonus of +2, pretty significant, if you dont think so you dont math properly... it a 10% less chance of getting hit, every point of AC is equivalent to a +5% harder to hit score. So at level 1i can make a fighter with shield and chainmail start and defense fighting style for a whopping 19 ac! Might not seem like too much but gotta consider the enemies atthis level are using 1d20+4 to hit, so the lowest they can hit me with is a nat 15 on the die roll. Thats 1/4 a chance of an attack even touching me... sure things change over levels too but even a +9 which is pretty high attack ngl, will only hit me 50% of the time. The only random factor is the die roll and even that is limited to pick from 1-20. So kobolds max attack range is 24, +9 maybe death knight? 29.
11:00 I personally would house rule that Mark is a class feature exclusive to Barbarian when they rage. The idea being that while enraged, the Barbarian has "blinders" on and solely focuses on a single enemy until they are downed.
Overrun/tumble: in regards to opportunity attacks; I would add that if you beat the target by 5 or more, they cant take OA against you. otherwise they do it with disadvantage. something I've decided that I'm going to do is that when I DM, I'm going to give my players flanking advantage if they've done so in a tactical way. I won't ever say "flanked/flanking" i'll just tell them to make the attack with advantage, as a way to reward a player for thinking tactically & describing what they're doing. Example: Getting behind a creature who didn't have line of sight on you for at least 1 turn, Given that they may be focused on your ally, you could hide & then get behind them without them noticing. As in you beat their passive perception (since to choose to search for something requires an action on their part) this would mean it still works in theatre of the mind or even with minis on a grid, but it means that the player made intelligent decisions to get to where they were rather than just walk up to an enemy & sidestep till they hit the flanking bonus.
the thing you want about destroyable cover already exists. inanimate objects already have an AC and HP, so if you hit a wooden table, that would be a large or medium resilient or fragile object made probably of wood, so it would have an AC of 15 for wood, and HP of up to 5d10 depending on the size/fragility you decide on
Technically I believe there is a general rule about not being able to move through spaces of hostile creatures. In situations like a hallway that is totally blocked by hostile creatures, but you need to reach the other side and beyond it as fast as possible, the overrun rule remedies that general rule pretty much forcing you to fight to the death.
Some thoughts. Destroying cover should be easy to implement. Everything in dnd has ac and hp. I believe theres a chart in the dmg that talks about destroying objects. Id check those out before u reinvent the wheel :) Overrun and Tumble Through: These arent about avoiding opportunity attacks, theyre about moving thru anspace u otherwise could not. U cant move through hostile creatures spaces normally, so if orc #2 is blocking the only exit to the collapsing temple, these r a good option. Disarming: i use this one all the time. Get the wizards staff! And it doesnt make the gighter maneuver redundant, that maneuver does standard and superiority die damage, so its actually superior. The same thing goes for the relationship between tripping attack and the shove action.
I have one homebrew rule, and it can be a bit exploited by making people NOT take the war-caster feat, and it is that arcane focus count as free hand for vocal and somatic spells just as it does for material spells. I hate that the rule says that "somatic rule" needs a free hand to cast a spell and "material rule" tell that you need one hand to hold the material or the spell focus and that this hand CAN BE THE SAME you use to do somatic - BUT then it doesn't apply when you use a spell that doesn't have material component and then the issue pops up that "my arcane focus, magic staff, is actually making it so my right hand is NOT free and I have a shield on the left, so I have to drop the staff, cast the spell and pick the staff back up" situation. It's just, well, dumb. It's micromanaging interactions to cast spells that have material component while holding the staff and dropping it to cast the ones that need a free hand.
Tumbling through a creature space does not give opportunity attacks. You get OA only when you leave a creature reach, not when you leave a threatened square. In dnd 5e, you can dance around a creature without leaving its reach and you would not get OAd, unless the creature has some sort of special power or ability. Following the tumbling example, if you end up your movement withing reach of the creature you tumbled through, nothing bad happens.
Mark is essentially just a way to buff a gish I suppose so they could attack their target but still counterspell or cutting words or for a rogue to use shield or their ability to lower damage
Benefit of Tumble and Overrun is that normally you cannot move through a hostile creature's space, meaning the square they actually occupy, with both of those rules you have a way to do that. So lets say you are cornered by two other creatures, or by one large creature, you are in a ten foot wide corridor and they block the entrance, unless you Overrun or Tumble you cannot move past them because you cannot move through a hostile creature's space. This way you have an option to get past them, though they do get a chance to hit you. It's not something you'll use every combat, but it is something that's nice to have when you need it. To be clear it's not allowing you to move through their reach, it's allowing you to move through their space/square. With Cleaving Through I've never understood why the creature has to be undamaged, do undamaged creatures have more protection? I used it with a group of 5 against an army (200) Gargoyles at choke points. Worked well, downed three PC's (though they lived) and had the rest thinking they were doomed, but it made for some epic combat. I've used almost all of these (haven't used Marking).
I think advantage is really strong. I think I got it from Matt Colville, have the player that is helping you to flank roll a d4 and add that to your attack roll, seems like a cool option.
Something I've been trying for flanking is reducing the enemies AC by 1 for each adjacent player to that creature (only if there are 2 or more) so if they dog pile and its 4 players surrounding the enemies, the enemy has - 3 AC. But this doesn't happen since I have 2 ranged, a bard and 3 melee characters and there's usually more than 1 enemy.
I use flanking. It's not as decisive as you think in terms of damage so long as you use more minions with your boss. Yes, positioning becomes more important. That's just more realistic and strategy is something I want to encourage. Also, if the players can have flanking then the baddies can do so also. If there are many weak creatures against your powerful party.... now those little guys are that much more of a threat and can actually hit.
Hitting an object, like a table, you would use the rules in the DMG for destroying an object. So table would prob be a medium object giving it 4d8hp. Simple on the fly rule would be if it drops below half hp, than it only grants half the AC benefit.
I would limit the cleaving rule to use reaction, but work no matter how much health target had before being hit. If there's damage that carries over, and target in melee reach, You can attack them too. I'm not sure however how it would work with different rules, like paladin smite or rogue's sneak attack. Does sneak damage carry over? Does it carry, if second target isn't valid target for sneak attack? Does smite carry over? Can I add new smite to second attack?
Disarm is pointless without attacks of opportunity, like in previous editions. Same with the shove action to knock someone prone. There's no disadvantage to the opponent. You use your action to shove or disarm your opponent. Cool. On their turn, their pick their weapon back up or stand up for half their movement, and then wail on you. What should have been done is you attacking them up to four times during your round. It's nice that disarm is in the optional rules, but it can stay there.
The Battlemaster’s “disarming attack” is superior to a normal disarming attack since it also does damage. The only con (IMO) is it uses a set DC instead of a contested roll. In my experience most strength based melee types opt to be proficient in Athletics and so would have a statistically better success rate with a contested roll.
With the overrun, there wouldn't be any opportunity attack (since they didn't leave their melee range by running through their space) they just can go passed the line of enemies blocking the way
Since both tumble and overrun are an action or bonus action, can't you use your action to disengage (if you are not a rogue) and the tumble or overrun to go through someone?
The benefit is supposed to be positioning, and dynamic encounters. These are all meant to be used against the party as well. They are not freebies for the party to get more xp.
my level 9 barbarian jumped on a dragon and dealt a shitton of damage to it while the dragon was flying up and trying to throw him off. after i tanked a breath weapon i fell down and survived with around 5 hitpoints due to the fall damage. legendary moment in our campaign: the meteorite barbarian
Something I will say for dungeon masters make flanking not work against legendary creatures so that it makes dealing with minions easy but boss monsters are still tough.
There really should be an attack of opportunity for creatures to defend theirselves if youre ginna be running around in their threatening range... who would WILLINGLY let you get a flank off? The monsters know youre flanking, see you attempting flanking, why is there not even an attack for punishing such behavior in 5e in the flanking rules?
I think advantage of flanking is too much because it make some stuff useless like reckless or guiding bolt... but i still want to give something to character that focus on fighting and positioning so if they flank i give them +1d6 damage and its working fine.
I wonder if overrun and tumble might an interesting alternate to the disengage action. Might try it out and see if people like it. At worst it's just more dice to roll which could negatively affect the pacing of the game and lead to burnout
My favorit game mechanic is fighting on this death machines in ascend of avernus. You fall down and on your turn you climbo back on the machine cuas the car had not his turn and thus has not yet driven away.🤣
Overrun and tumble exist because RAW you CANNOT move through a hostile creatures space unless it is 2 sizes larger or smaller than you and only under those circumstances can you do so and it is considered difficult terrain. IT IS NOT JUST DIFFICULT TERRAIN like most people who don't actually read the rules think it is. Also disarm is such a joke, since its a free action to pick up a weapon off the ground for the disarmed creature, you waste your action for literally nothing
From my understanding opportunity attacks only happen if you leave an enemies threatening space. So, so long as you don’t get more than five feet from a monster no attacks happen
I find flanking too easy, especially because my players got racial feats level 1 and elven accuracy is a thing, so I house ruled that flanking required the reaction of the non-attacking party. Essentially you can use the help action as a reaction while you are flanking.
I like that, but still would make moving 5 ft in the creatures threatening range an attack of opportunity. Otherwise yes, flanking is totally free in 5e cause theres no threat or punish for freely being in their threatening range and moving without disengage or such
Your reaction to "Marking" makes me believe you did not play 4E. I sort of miss the stickiness of 4E's "Defenders"/front-liners, but I've never used Marking in 5E. I'd consider using it with a smaller party with a surplus of squishy characters.
No discussion about 5e initiative variants? It’s not hard to have certain ability checks become the initiative rolls depending on the situation. My favorite is CON check for initiative for when someone gets hit in a surprise round or deception/insight for when you’re backstabbing a guy who you’re trying to be civil with. (I run surprise rounds before initiative is rolled for the sake of making combat smooth.)
I don't think flanking is too powerful. It encourages the party to work together and think tactically. Narrative wise, I imagine it as the two PCs are ganging up on the same enemy and helping each other land their hits.
Cover can be destroyed. There is Hardness and HP for wood and stone and such so when you hit the cover, you damage it and can destroy it. It doesn't need to be covered in the cover rules because it is already there.
The only thing I don't get about Cleave is the condition that the target needs to be un-damaged... like... why could you not cleave a damaged enemy? Heck, finishing off an enemy and cleaving through to the next actually makes sense... so long as the original enemy dies, that is.
Mark would make more sense if you gained advantage on opportunity attack against the marked target but you can't make opportunity attacks against other targets.
@@NerdImmersion Yes but that implies the Marked target actually gives you your opportunity attack. What I'm suggesting is you mark the target and if they move or they don't, you can't make opportunity strikes on other targets instead. In other words you are so focused on this target you are oblivious to any other opportunities.
In 5th edition you don't take AoO unless you move out of their range anyway. So literally the ONLY situation overrun oe Tumble would work is if there is 3 enemies each spaced with a 5 foot square between them and you are trying to move around the middle one.
On top of that, disengage already exists. They are adding in features to allow non rogues/rangers/monks to di what those classes can as a class feature.
No, Disengage lets you move through a hostile creature's reach without taking opportunity attacks, Tumble/Overrun let's you move through the creature (or more accurately their space), which you otherwise cannot do. A large creature has a space of 10x10 a medium is 5x5 they both have reaches that extend beyond that, but their space is within those numbers, RaW you cannot move through those spaces in combat. With Tumble/Overrun you can if you are successful.
@@Lurklen yes but you can move diagonally for no extra movement, so without anything extra you can easily move to the other side of a creature. It's a useless addition.
@@Vashy434 Unless you can't because there's another creature there, or because they are blocking your path. It's not useless when you need it, it's just not needed all the time.
I think you misunderstood the value of Tumble and Overrun. A character cannot pass through a hostile creature’s space unless there is a size difference of two. Hostile creature bars the door. You need to get out. You tumble or overrun and take that opportunity attack.
Technically, yes. In usual play, it doesnt come up because what player wants to keep track of 9 differant hp pools and 9 seperate ac's... So it depends on the table your playing at. Old grognards would totally do it, including hp for potions. But must tables today dont bother.
Geezer here... I fail to understand the need for destroying cover rules. Opponent A wants to hit C and B is between. Ok. Kill B first, or attack C which should not affect B at all. Baddies hiding in the tree tops firing arrows? We always went fireball when possible. 5e still allows mechanics for smashing the inanimate, most cover is in my experience. Game on.
**Flanking: ** always use flanking ... always. you dont like advantage make it +2 you will encourge people to be more focused and engage. and reward who thinks tachticly. This ruin the game and make it too easy people say ... ha Look at Crit role and other streaming shows that use flanking and see how many times people actually do it. **Disarm:** Adv everyone can do it you know like in real life, But only the fighter battlemaster can cause DAMAGE and enhance said damage at the same time. **Mark:** Adv Sentinel, Mage slayer, Monk arrow catching, spellcasters this is much more handy than you think and it tell the story of you focusing on that quarey. and if you are a fighter marking 4 creatures as an action surge sure will be amazing with sentinel and make fighters much more epic. **hitting Covor:** if something get hit it loses HP bper the attack and it get destroyed when it exceed its HP. I believe it does mention covor damage in the object section but I dont remember **Cleave:** one word ... Minions ... minion rule of 4e . either make them 1 hp or 5 hp or 10 hp. depend on how tough you want them and how easy on your self. and it kinda reduce the tyranny of range weapon of 5e. even though you might allow a line effect on that.
First off, proofread your posts it would make them much easier to read than us having to try to decipher what you're trying to say. Second flanking does more than just make combat "too easy" it negates all the cool abilities and spells that grant advantage. Critical role only employed flanking this campaign, and critical role has only Beau who wants to get into melee, other than that they have a ranged rogue and 4 full casters who don't want to be on melee. That's why it's not overpowered in that specific example. I employ almost all of the variant combat options except flanking. I personally would look into the facing rules rather than the flanking rules, it makes sense for the person attacking from behind to gain advantage but not really for the person attacking within the opponents front side.
@@evangregory14 I think my wording was clear enough. as for Crit role They did have it last campaign too check again. Yasha, Fjord and even jester all engage in melee fighting. Flanking give the people who dont have cool abilities a chance to experience just that.
The problem is that flanking is free in the action economy when it should cost a bonus action or reaction or something. People aren't just going to stand there and let themselves be easily surrounded.
Flanking doesn’t work for 5e for the simple fact that getting advantage so easily from position undoes several powerful spells and entire class feature that are meant to give advantage. I play w/ minis and it doesn’t matter the class rules just don’t support that rule.
Wait, you are aware that both with the tumble and overrun rules neither would provoke an AoO right? You are never leaving their threat range. You are passing through squares that they threaten, but never leaving their reach. Even tumbling through their square, you never leave.
Yes, I should have stated clearly that when I thought of it, I was thinking of it as a means to move through someone's space to keep going. I never stated that, which is my bad.
I didn't cover Facing like I didn't cover Diagonals. Yes they are variant rules but I feel those are befitting a miniature or war game scenario than d&d. Again the same argument could be made for flanking. They make the focus solely and the minis and the map and less about the story and what's happening
I'm currently running a Level 20 game with a barbarian in it. The barbarian has a Belt of Storm Giant Strength, so base strength score of 29. They can use their strength score in place of the result of a roll when it comes to skill checks. Like grappling.
I threw a Tarrasque at the barbarian, alone, just to see what happened. The barbarian climbed onto its back and the Tarrasque could not shake it. I ruled that it meant it could really only be attacked with its claws rather than the bite or tail, due to their positioning. They got within about 10 HP of killing the thing solo. Just because of the way they climbed on and grappled the thing.
I mean inanimate objects already have hit points so if you use the cover rule technically there already is destroyable cover. That being said it would be nice if they mentioned that or redirected you to the chapter about that.
I recall an old story where the DM advises the party that the monster they were fighting had a bunch of hit points left, then a player asked how much HP the bridge the monster was standing on had.
Tumble/Overrun are very tactically useful. You dont incur attacks of opportunity from leaving a creatures space, just exiting their reach. So moving to the far side of them does not incur that attack of opportunity.
Flanking as it is I feel takes to much out of the mechanics of some classes, such as samarai fighters or path of the wolf totem barbarians, are no longer useful because its so easy for advantage as is.
So I changed flanking in my game to be a +2 per person adjacent to a max of +6. Now it stacks with advantage. Also do note that if it works for PCs, then it works for Monsters. Kobolds with an extra +6 to hit and advantage against lvl1 parties. >:)
Shove Aside I just incorporated in the normal shove rules without the disadvantage, and it is perfectly balanced so far (4.5yr campaign).
Disarm is useful, and does not take away from battlemaster, cause it takes an action. Battlemaster can do it as part of an attack, that can be an attack action or attack of opportunity.
tumble and overrun would be useful in a hallway to get behind someone
Not every hallway encounter, but when discretion is needed I can see a use of it.
The party has to escape but the rogue is caught behind enemy lines. Or the enemy wizard is behind a line of henchmen and the barbarian wants to get at him. Or the kidnapped villager is about to be sacrificed and a line of cultists stands in your way.
All good times for using tumble or overrun I would think
the tumble and overrun are with conjunction with the rule moving through hostile creatures
Moving Around Other Creatures
You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you.
Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.
If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the section.
I homebrew so much, that its nice to see a lot of these variants and the systems D&D "officially" uses so I can base my own homebrew off of it
Ted, one could tumble behind an enemy to get into flanking then cleave through it. SYNERGY!
Good point lol!
I had a paladin with an extremely high AC and used Overrun rules to go into the center of a group of enemies, and hit two other than the one that I hit, basically causing all of them to hit me(and miss)
Just wanted to say thank you. You put out quality content on a game I love to play.
Absolutely have thrown these into my 5.1 E mix. More combat options and variability that doesn't rely on magic is great. Lion and Dragon's parry rules are fantastic in this regard. They've also become part of my 5.1.
Marking looks really powerfull for a rogue where he can get a free attack of oportunity granting sneakattack and still have his reaction for uncanny dodge or whatever
It's definitely an upgrade for all melee characters. Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians in particular get a boost, as they tend to have the best OAs.
Conversely, ranged characters suffer just a bit, as melee foes become a bit more dangerous. Many complain about the superiority of ranged combat in 5E. The Marking mechanic is one way one might rein this in a bit.
I recall that 5E's generous movement rules, including the absence of marking, was one thing that felt odd when we first began playing it.
Just use the object hitpoints/ac chart in the DMG for the cover
I think overrun and tumble would be interesting additions if when you win the contest of skills you can either knock down the creature or have advantage on your next attack, but by failing you fall in front of the creature and recieve an opportunity attack made with advantage. This way it's a high-risk high-reward kind of move, which I think should be.
I love this idea, and I wrote a rule that is probably way too wordy, but I like it.
> A creature can use an action or bonus action to attempt to move through a hostile creature's space.
> If a creature attempts to overrun another creature, it makes a Strength (Athletics) check, which the other creature can contest with either a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the defending creature looses the contest, they are knocked prone and cannot make an opportunity attack against the attacker. If the defending creature wins the contest they may immediately use their reaction to make an opportunity attack against the attacking creature, and if they won using Strength (Athletics) the attacking creature is also knocked prone, and the opportunity attack is made with advantage. A creature attempting to overrun a creature one size larger than them makes the roll with disadvantage, while a creature attempting to overrun a creature at least one size smaller than them make the roll with advantage.
> If a creature attempts to tumble past another creature, it must succeed on a Dexterity (Acrobatics) contest with the opposing creature. If the tumbling creature wins the contest, they may move through the hostile creature's space and the opposing creature cannot make an opportunity attack against them. If the other creature wins the contest, they may use their reaction to immediately make an opportunity attack against the tumbling creature.
I like allowing overrun to be contested by Acrobatics, because it makes it more like the shove action, but with a bit of a higher risk. The changes would sort of enable someone to abuse this to get a free shove and then make multiple attacks against a prone opponent, but I would rule they just can't do that and can only use this to keep running past that enemy.
Pretty sure they intent of these options is to move to the other side of an opponent. No opportunity attack if you don't leave the creatures 5ft radius. Useful if you get cornered by opponents or want to position to flank a creature in a narrow passage. Use it to evade some pack tactics, break ambushes etc. Its a good optional rule for cqb type dungeons. I have one coming up and navigating enemies to create openings for the party will be key.
honestly never seen people taking longer on their turns with flanking in 5e, thou i feel it makes alot of abilities redundant and we just add a +4 to hit instead
Moepsii yeah the extra time being a problem is never an actual reason. I personally think the redundancy is a good thing. Save your more situational advantage giving abilities for when you get caught out.
I use a -2 penalty to AC, as its simply reverse cover
should be 2 for each hero more than 1 imo. but that's what i thought! (makes adv abilities redundant on occassion)
I liked listening to you talk through variant rules. Thanks for putting in the time!
"Removes that sort of uniqueness"
The uniqueness was dealing damage while disarming... like eveything else the battle master does, tripping while doing damage, shoving while doing damage.
I meant more that disarming is only allowed if your a battle master. If you're anyone else the DM has to opt to use a variant rule to allow it. I'd say in most games a battle master is the only one who'd be able to disarm
@@NerdImmersion but its not like shoving is treated so special either though, its allowed as long as you drop the damage per attack used. BM doing the attacks damage, with dice anyway seems to be their thing.
I simply run a fair game with my players, if they can benefit from something, so can i. Flanking, disarming, called shots, etc. Essentially i let them decide how complicated combats gonna be.
@@NerdImmersion but think of this, why should a unique sub set of fighter be the only people in the dnd universe who can disarm people? To disarm is to potentially end a combat in a peaceful manner. Its a big story opportunity.
@@SadBoi_1066 you can do that without dealing damage, its a regular attack to disarm or trip
@@elgatochurro twas what I was implying. i was advocating for the use of that variant rule.
This was super useful, I was just going of the DMG again and it was nice to get someone else’s view point.
I absolutely adore your videos, please keep making them.
I was wondering if you could do a video on how you prep for a session? thanks!
If the mark rule made opportunity attacks against other non-marked targets at disadvantage it would be a cool trade off for the player.
Maybe being marked would negate the disengage action for the price of not being able to opportunity attack other enemies in range as well that would be cool for a character that wants to duel opponents.
That's a cool flavor idea, but does it step on the toes of the Swashbuckler?
@@anthonynorman7545 I was unfamiliar with the swashbuckler till you commented, but after looking I think it would work weirdly with their fancy footwork trait. However the trait is worded as if the swashbuckler would go in, attack, then retreat out of range, not allowing the enemy to make the marked action at all. I do think it might be a bit powerful if any enemy were able to make this action, maybe making a variant for the dueling fighting style would be good.
@@legomonster7747 Swashbuckler and mobile are not disengage action so they dont trigger sentinel.
Cleave is wonderful in how it is never in danger of messing with game balance, but incredibly satisfying when it does happen (and since the players will always be excited to get it to go off, it is also not a GM headache). It also gives strength melee characters something only they can do. To me cleave on enemy brutes also symbolizes why you don't send a bunch of regular rabble after certain threats, and it is a demonstration of how adventurers came to be. Since most level appropriate enemies are damage sponges in d&d, cleave will only occasionally mean something when it really counts, and then only a small bit of extra damage.
Tumble and overrun are for getting through someone where there is no other path like in a blocked doorway or being surrounded.
The destructible cover isn’t explicitly mentioned but guidelines for objects HP/AC are in the DMG so they’re already in the game if you wanna go that route.
Overrun and Tumble can be beneficial in a handful of scenarios. Remembering that opportunity attacks occur when you leave the engagement range of a creature.
A. You are completely surrounded and are trying to escape your captors. Action to disengage and bonus action to Overrun/Tumble depending on what stat is higher or what makes the most sense to the DM.
B. You enter a narrow corridor, a mere 5-feet wide. Up ahead a creature blocks your path. The use of Overrun/Tumble allows the players a chance at avoiding combat and begin a chase.
These variant rules are also very fun if you spice them up with a little homebrew.
Overrun. When you exceed an Overrun attempt by 5, the creature is knocked prone.
Tumble. When you exceed a Tumble attempt by 5, the creature does not get an opportunity attack on you.
I've also heard some DMs impose disadvantage if you pick up a weapon and attack with it in the same turn or picking up a disarmed weapon costs half your movement. I like the idea of a penalty to the Disarm rule because it makes the players consider different tactical advantages they may be able to get.
I like flanking like many others do, however I feel that the version of +1 per flanking ally to a cap made more sense and feels better than just advantage. If you swarm an enemy it would make sense that they are less likely to defend against attacks from many directions as they would just facing someone one on one. Since it's opposite sides the size of the creature sets the cap on a grid since only so many melee combatants can get close enough on that side. I think it also means that if the players are fighting a large creature in a setting where you can give them weak npc's for assistance (town guard for example) these guys may not do much damage but they can provide flanking and soak damage if the players are having trouble.
Another very helpful and informative video offering much needed help for DMs.
The overrun and tumble is so you cant be surrounded with no option of escape but downing a bad guy. These are interesting and in a very low magic game could help to spice up combat. Great video.
Gotta say Taking20 made a good video on why flanking should be a +1. It also makes things not unbalanced.
For Overrun -- I recently had this come up in a game. The party was fighting a hag in a cabin. The hag needed to move to another room to grab an item, but a PC was in the doorway. Since you can't move through a hostile creature's space, I had the hag make Acrobatics checks to try to slip past the PC in the doorway, contested by an Athletics roll by the PC.
It definitely doesn't come up often, but in clustered rooms, it can become important that creatures can't move through other hostile creatures' spaces.
Also i think overrun/tumblng makes more sense if the enemy is blocking a doorway or something, especially if you do not intend to move past them but to impart flanking for your allies.
I gave my players the option to use marking and they completely forgot about it. It's mostly good for GISH users
I like the idea of using the hitting cover rule with using creatures as cover more often, but we often dont do that.
Gives spells akin to Lightning Bolt able to stay competitive with spells more like Fireball.
@@kylethomas9130 I had a DM use it against me despite my sharpshooter. Ended up shooting an ally. Thankfully it was a ragin barbarian and I rolled low for damage
Mark was the tanking mechanic that 4e used, it worked similar to the cavalier and barbarian of the ancient spirits effects that grant disadvantage to attack others
Mark I can see as being something you need to study to effectively run in a game. The way I see it, different classes could benefit. You would want the enemies to be using this a lot too.
Fighters: Could us maneuvers or even the new fighting style that lets you reduce damage
Rogues: Scouts can move way and everyone else can half damage on one attack
Paladins: Defensive fighting style and shield spell are still able to be used
Barbarians: Can move away with the new variant or return fire later on.
Spell casters have ton reactions.
Tumble and overrun, shove aside are for people using battlemaps with tons of things going on.
Pushing people into hole or harmful spot, trying to move through hallway or choke point.
Rush into a room, 25 feet wide, 45 feet back. Wall to wall 10 feet ahead is a defender line of shield wielding foes, behind them the villain holds a NPC hostage, they are tied over a fire pit by rope, the man is manically cutting the rope.
Start a turn 20 Lair action for the rope, with 3 turns till breaks.
Roll initiative.
Overrun or tumble in this time sensitive situation might be the best way to get through, as the rogue could bonus action tumble, main action disengage to get past the shield line.
The overrun and tumble are something you use in conjunction with moving through hostile creatures quote from basic rules
Moving Around Other Creatures
You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you.
Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.
If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the section.
About disarm; Yes the fighter gets one maneuver to do that after an attack that deals an extra dice of damage.
But the fighter also gets a maneuver for knocking someone prone after an attack that deals an extra dice of damage. And that is already a action in the game.
Battle Master is doing things that would cost one attack. Also, Battle Master's disarm is a STR-ST; While the action disarm will cost the entire action, so no damage done that round, and it's a attack roll vs a skill check and the target may choose between two skills.
You're not making the battle mater worst by having the disarm action as a option, and it's a cool thing monsters could do. Just imagine a goblin running away with the +1 wand of the war mage the wiz just got, how crazy the adventurers would go after that guy.
You might want to look up rules clarification before doing this in the future.
The overrun and tumble don't give an opportunity attack unless you fail the check.
The first time I had the jester do this and pop up in the fighters face before tumbling away was priceless.
In one of those hardcover books that you don't read very often is also a fun rule for harming the foot of a much larger foe as they attack your players as an opportunity attack. Fun and hidden in the body of another ability. Have fun finding it.
I think overrun and tumble are interesting in that they are super situational, but maybe useful if there's just an object behind a creature that they're guarding. Or you could take the disengage action in combination with this to save movement speed.
For cleaving through creature's I would use descending accuracy - 2 to hit for next target
Makes sense since that's equal to half cover anyways.
Edit: though I honestly doubt it's needed since it's doubtful all those enemies will be lined up unless they use Pact Tactics and even then it's still doubtful. And if they are all lined up it's much easier to just AoE kill them.
Only -2?
@@elgatochurro How much deflective power should a huminoid sheild provide in a fantasy setting? And that's per target.
@@isaackarr6576 depends on the system, but for big bonuses id use -5.
Making firearm feats and you can use piercing shot there, if the shot shoots through at +5 your oppnents ac, and itll suffer -5 to hit the one behind for half the orignal shots damage. Or another where you can empty more clip for just one attack but each successive shot will suffer -5 but it can crit despite bonuses and can still be high rolls after. This is a high cost for dealing extra attacks. -2 is pretty free and lackluster, id say, i woudlnt give it much of a bonus for such an inconsequential penalty.
Even on vanilla though, -5 to hit for flat 10 is pretty common... if you really wanted to scale it down, by the example given... -2 to hit, for +4, as the damage is double the negative to hit.
As for dnds dice rules... a shield provides a bonus of +2, pretty significant, if you dont think so you dont math properly... it a 10% less chance of getting hit, every point of AC is equivalent to a +5% harder to hit score. So at level 1i can make a fighter with shield and chainmail start and defense fighting style for a whopping 19 ac! Might not seem like too much but gotta consider the enemies atthis level are using 1d20+4 to hit, so the lowest they can hit me with is a nat 15 on the die roll. Thats 1/4 a chance of an attack even touching me... sure things change over levels too but even a +9 which is pretty high attack ngl, will only hit me 50% of the time. The only random factor is the die roll and even that is limited to pick from 1-20. So kobolds max attack range is 24, +9 maybe death knight? 29.
11:00 I personally would house rule that Mark is a class feature exclusive to Barbarian when they rage. The idea being that while enraged, the Barbarian has "blinders" on and solely focuses on a single enemy until they are downed.
Overrun/tumble: in regards to opportunity attacks; I would add that if you beat the target by 5 or more, they cant take OA against you. otherwise they do it with disadvantage.
something I've decided that I'm going to do is that when I DM, I'm going to give my players flanking advantage if they've done so in a tactical way. I won't ever say "flanked/flanking" i'll just tell them to make the attack with advantage, as a way to reward a player for thinking tactically & describing what they're doing.
Example: Getting behind a creature who didn't have line of sight on you for at least 1 turn, Given that they may be focused on your ally, you could hide & then get behind them without them noticing. As in you beat their passive perception (since to choose to search for something requires an action on their part)
this would mean it still works in theatre of the mind or even with minis on a grid, but it means that the player made intelligent decisions to get to where they were rather than just walk up to an enemy & sidestep till they hit the flanking bonus.
the thing you want about destroyable cover already exists. inanimate objects already have an AC and HP, so if you hit a wooden table, that would be a large or medium resilient or fragile object made probably of wood, so it would have an AC of 15 for wood, and HP of up to 5d10 depending on the size/fragility you decide on
Technically I believe there is a general rule about not being able to move through spaces of hostile creatures. In situations like a hallway that is totally blocked by hostile creatures, but you need to reach the other side and beyond it as fast as possible, the overrun rule remedies that general rule pretty much forcing you to fight to the death.
Some thoughts.
Destroying cover should be easy to implement. Everything in dnd has ac and hp. I believe theres a chart in the dmg that talks about destroying objects. Id check those out before u reinvent the wheel :)
Overrun and Tumble Through: These arent about avoiding opportunity attacks, theyre about moving thru anspace u otherwise could not. U cant move through hostile creatures spaces normally, so if orc #2 is blocking the only exit to the collapsing temple, these r a good option.
Disarming: i use this one all the time. Get the wizards staff! And it doesnt make the gighter maneuver redundant, that maneuver does standard and superiority die damage, so its actually superior. The same thing goes for the relationship between tripping attack and the shove action.
I have one homebrew rule, and it can be a bit exploited by making people NOT take the war-caster feat, and it is that arcane focus count as free hand for vocal and somatic spells just as it does for material spells.
I hate that the rule says that "somatic rule" needs a free hand to cast a spell and "material rule" tell that you need one hand to hold the material or the spell focus and that this hand CAN BE THE SAME you use to do somatic - BUT then it doesn't apply when you use a spell that doesn't have material component and then the issue pops up that "my arcane focus, magic staff, is actually making it so my right hand is NOT free and I have a shield on the left, so I have to drop the staff, cast the spell and pick the staff back up" situation.
It's just, well, dumb. It's micromanaging interactions to cast spells that have material component while holding the staff and dropping it to cast the ones that need a free hand.
Tumbling through a creature space does not give opportunity attacks. You get OA only when you leave a creature reach, not when you leave a threatened square. In dnd 5e, you can dance around a creature without leaving its reach and you would not get OAd, unless the creature has some sort of special power or ability. Following the tumbling example, if you end up your movement withing reach of the creature you tumbled through, nothing bad happens.
Mark is essentially just a way to buff a gish I suppose so they could attack their target but still counterspell or cutting words or for a rogue to use shield or their ability to lower damage
Benefit of Tumble and Overrun is that normally you cannot move through a hostile creature's space, meaning the square they actually occupy, with both of those rules you have a way to do that. So lets say you are cornered by two other creatures, or by one large creature, you are in a ten foot wide corridor and they block the entrance, unless you Overrun or Tumble you cannot move past them because you cannot move through a hostile creature's space. This way you have an option to get past them, though they do get a chance to hit you. It's not something you'll use every combat, but it is something that's nice to have when you need it. To be clear it's not allowing you to move through their reach, it's allowing you to move through their space/square.
With Cleaving Through I've never understood why the creature has to be undamaged, do undamaged creatures have more protection? I used it with a group of 5 against an army (200) Gargoyles at choke points. Worked well, downed three PC's (though they lived) and had the rest thinking they were doomed, but it made for some epic combat.
I've used almost all of these (haven't used Marking).
I think advantage is really strong. I think I got it from Matt Colville, have the player that is helping you to flank roll a d4 and add that to your attack roll, seems like a cool option.
Something I've been trying for flanking is reducing the enemies AC by 1 for each adjacent player to that creature (only if there are 2 or more) so if they dog pile and its 4 players surrounding the enemies, the enemy has - 3 AC. But this doesn't happen since I have 2 ranged, a bard and 3 melee characters and there's usually more than 1 enemy.
I use flanking. It's not as decisive as you think in terms of damage so long as you use more minions with your boss. Yes, positioning becomes more important. That's just more realistic and strategy is something I want to encourage. Also, if the players can have flanking then the baddies can do so also. If there are many weak creatures against your powerful party.... now those little guys are that much more of a threat and can actually hit.
Hitting an object, like a table, you would use the rules in the DMG for destroying an object. So table would prob be a medium object giving it 4d8hp. Simple on the fly rule would be if it drops below half hp, than it only grants half the AC benefit.
Awesome video I will be considering this for my next game thanks
Disarm; you mention dropping an item from a creatures belt, but disarm only works on items in said creatures grasp.
I would limit the cleaving rule to use reaction, but work no matter how much health target had before being hit. If there's damage that carries over, and target in melee reach, You can attack them too. I'm not sure however how it would work with different rules, like paladin smite or rogue's sneak attack. Does sneak damage carry over? Does it carry, if second target isn't valid target for sneak attack? Does smite carry over? Can I add new smite to second attack?
Disarm is pointless without attacks of opportunity, like in previous editions. Same with the shove action to knock someone prone. There's no disadvantage to the opponent. You use your action to shove or disarm your opponent. Cool. On their turn, their pick their weapon back up or stand up for half their movement, and then wail on you. What should have been done is you attacking them up to four times during your round. It's nice that disarm is in the optional rules, but it can stay there.
The Battlemaster’s “disarming attack” is superior to a normal disarming attack since it also does damage. The only con (IMO) is it uses a set DC instead of a contested roll. In my experience most strength based melee types opt to be proficient in Athletics and so would have a statistically better success rate with a contested roll.
With the overrun, there wouldn't be any opportunity attack (since they didn't leave their melee range by running through their space) they just can go passed the line of enemies blocking the way
Same with Tumble, since RAW says "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach."
Right, I guess I should have explained that my thought was you'd be doing this to get past the enemy and keep going
Mark sounds really good if you have the Sentinel feat. Like, really really good. Haha.
Since both tumble and overrun are an action or bonus action, can't you use your action to disengage (if you are not a rogue) and the tumble or overrun to go through someone?
The benefit is supposed to be positioning, and dynamic encounters. These are all meant to be used against the party as well. They are not freebies for the party to get more xp.
my level 9 barbarian jumped on a dragon and dealt a shitton of damage to it while the dragon was flying up and trying to throw him off. after i tanked a breath weapon i fell down and survived with around 5 hitpoints due to the fall damage. legendary moment in our campaign: the meteorite barbarian
Something I will say for dungeon masters make flanking not work against legendary creatures so that it makes dealing with minions easy but boss monsters are still tough.
Make it give a +1 instead, so surrounding is still helpful, but doesn't give an effective +5 to attacks like advantage does
There really should be an attack of opportunity for creatures to defend theirselves if youre ginna be running around in their threatening range... who would WILLINGLY let you get a flank off? The monsters know youre flanking, see you attempting flanking, why is there not even an attack for punishing such behavior in 5e in the flanking rules?
I think advantage of flanking is too much because it make some stuff useless like reckless or guiding bolt... but i still want to give something to character that focus on fighting and positioning so if they flank i give them +1d6 damage and its working fine.
Lol, the baby noise in the background made me think it was my baby crying in the other room.
Yeah had to go and shut the basement door lol
@@NerdImmersion No worries, lol. Quality content as always and babies gonna baby.
I wonder if overrun and tumble might an interesting alternate to the disengage action. Might try it out and see if people like it. At worst it's just more dice to roll which could negatively affect the pacing of the game and lead to burnout
My favorit game mechanic is fighting on this death machines in ascend of avernus. You fall down and on your turn you climbo back on the machine cuas the car had not his turn and thus has not yet driven away.🤣
Someone is guarding a door and you need to get through, now. Overrun is suddenly incredibly useful.
Overrun and tumble exist because RAW you CANNOT move through a hostile creatures space unless it is 2 sizes larger or smaller than you and only under those circumstances can you do so and it is considered difficult terrain. IT IS NOT JUST DIFFICULT TERRAIN like most people who don't actually read the rules think it is.
Also disarm is such a joke, since its a free action to pick up a weapon off the ground for the disarmed creature, you waste your action for literally nothing
I think that cleaving action should be doable if the damage exceeds both the maximum and current hit point limits of the target.
You could always remove amount of first targets max hit point value from transferred damage.
I prefer to have flanking and i do it as a +2 to negate the bonus from cover or shields
From my understanding opportunity attacks only happen if you leave an enemies threatening space. So, so long as you don’t get more than five feet from a monster no attacks happen
Right, I guess I should have explained that my thought was you'd be doing this to get past the enemy and keep going
Nerd Immersion ah I see. Me though I was thinking about positioning or just cutting off enemy escape
I find flanking too easy, especially because my players got racial feats level 1 and elven accuracy is a thing, so I house ruled that flanking required the reaction of the non-attacking party. Essentially you can use the help action as a reaction while you are flanking.
I like that, but still would make moving 5 ft in the creatures threatening range an attack of opportunity.
Otherwise yes, flanking is totally free in 5e cause theres no threat or punish for freely being in their threatening range and moving without disengage or such
Objects have AC and HP. The hitting cover rules work just fine for destroying those objects.
Your reaction to "Marking" makes me believe you did not play 4E.
I sort of miss the stickiness of 4E's "Defenders"/front-liners, but I've never used Marking in 5E. I'd consider using it with a smaller party with a surplus of squishy characters.
I did not play 4e
No discussion about 5e initiative variants?
It’s not hard to have certain ability checks become the initiative rolls depending on the situation. My favorite is CON check for initiative for when someone gets hit in a surprise round or deception/insight for when you’re backstabbing a guy who you’re trying to be civil with. (I run surprise rounds before initiative is rolled for the sake of making combat smooth.)
With the fact that "greyhawk initiative" was a whole Unearthed Arcana, initiative variants will likely end up as it's own video
As an rogue could mark someone without giving up their reactions.
I don't think flanking is too powerful. It encourages the party to work together and think tactically. Narrative wise, I imagine it as the two PCs are ganging up on the same enemy and helping each other land their hits.
I feel like your videos are really good, though I feel like your audio could stand to be a little louder
I can do that!
Cover can be destroyed. There is Hardness and HP for wood and stone and such so when you hit the cover, you damage it and can destroy it. It doesn't need to be covered in the cover rules because it is already there.
I actually use a lot of these because I come from 3.5 and had used them there. I also use a grid surface which makes some of these much easier.
Am I confused? I thought he said he'd link or post the optional rules below, but I'm not seeing them.
CLIMB UP ONTO THE HYDRAS BACK
The only thing I don't get about Cleave is the condition that the target needs to be un-damaged... like... why could you not cleave a damaged enemy? Heck, finishing off an enemy and cleaving through to the next actually makes sense... so long as the original enemy dies, that is.
Yeah that's how I've always used it.
Mark would make more sense if you gained advantage on opportunity attack against the marked target but you can't make opportunity attacks against other targets.
Well it still says you're limited to only one opportunity attack
@@NerdImmersion Yes but that implies the Marked target actually gives you your opportunity attack. What I'm suggesting is you mark the target and if they move or they don't, you can't make opportunity strikes on other targets instead.
In other words you are so focused on this target you are oblivious to any other opportunities.
In 5th edition you don't take AoO unless you move out of their range anyway. So literally the ONLY situation overrun oe Tumble would work is if there is 3 enemies each spaced with a 5 foot square between them and you are trying to move around the middle one.
On top of that, disengage already exists. They are adding in features to allow non rogues/rangers/monks to di what those classes can as a class feature.
No, Disengage lets you move through a hostile creature's reach without taking opportunity attacks, Tumble/Overrun let's you move through the creature (or more accurately their space), which you otherwise cannot do. A large creature has a space of 10x10 a medium is 5x5 they both have reaches that extend beyond that, but their space is within those numbers, RaW you cannot move through those spaces in combat. With Tumble/Overrun you can if you are successful.
@@Lurklen yes but you can move diagonally for no extra movement, so without anything extra you can easily move to the other side of a creature. It's a useless addition.
@@Vashy434 Unless you can't because there's another creature there, or because they are blocking your path. It's not useless when you need it, it's just not needed all the time.
@@Vashy434 yea cause getting surrounded isn’t a thing apparently
I think you misunderstood the value of Tumble and Overrun. A character cannot pass through a hostile creature’s space unless there is a size difference of two. Hostile creature bars the door. You need to get out. You tumble or overrun and take that opportunity attack.
Hey can you tell me how you set up your dm note when preparing for games.
John Zambrano that would be a cool video.
Wait, if cover has hit points, doesn't that mean adventuring gear and armor does as well?
Technically, yes. In usual play, it doesnt come up because what player wants to keep track of 9 differant hp pools and 9 seperate ac's... So it depends on the table your playing at. Old grognards would totally do it, including hp for potions. But must tables today dont bother.
Another reason why they probably didn't offer Sunder as an option
I feel like Cleave is a useful but situational rule
Geezer here...
I fail to understand the need for destroying cover rules.
Opponent A wants to hit C and B is between. Ok. Kill B first, or attack C which should not affect B at all.
Baddies hiding in the tree tops firing arrows? We always went fireball when possible.
5e still allows mechanics for smashing the inanimate, most cover is in my experience.
Game on.
**Flanking: ** always use flanking ... always. you dont like advantage make it +2 you will encourge people to be more focused and engage. and reward who thinks tachticly. This ruin the game and make it too easy people say ... ha Look at Crit role and other streaming shows that use flanking and see how many times people actually do it.
**Disarm:** Adv everyone can do it you know like in real life, But only the fighter battlemaster can cause DAMAGE and enhance said damage at the same time.
**Mark:** Adv Sentinel, Mage slayer, Monk arrow catching, spellcasters this is much more handy than you think and it tell the story of you focusing on that quarey. and if you are a fighter marking 4 creatures as an action surge sure will be amazing with sentinel and make fighters much more epic.
**hitting Covor:** if something get hit it loses HP bper the attack and it get destroyed when it exceed its HP. I believe it does mention covor damage in the object section but I dont remember
**Cleave:** one word ... Minions ... minion rule of 4e . either make them 1 hp or 5 hp or 10 hp. depend on how tough you want them and how easy on your self. and it kinda reduce the tyranny of range weapon of 5e. even though you might allow a line effect on that.
First off, proofread your posts it would make them much easier to read than us having to try to decipher what you're trying to say.
Second flanking does more than just make combat "too easy" it negates all the cool abilities and spells that grant advantage. Critical role only employed flanking this campaign, and critical role has only Beau who wants to get into melee, other than that they have a ranged rogue and 4 full casters who don't want to be on melee. That's why it's not overpowered in that specific example. I employ almost all of the variant combat options except flanking. I personally would look into the facing rules rather than the flanking rules, it makes sense for the person attacking from behind to gain advantage but not really for the person attacking within the opponents front side.
@@evangregory14 I think my wording was clear enough.
as for Crit role They did have it last campaign too check again. Yasha, Fjord and even jester all engage in melee fighting.
Flanking give the people who dont have cool abilities a chance to experience just that.
The problem is that flanking is free in the action economy when it should cost a bonus action or reaction or something. People aren't just going to stand there and let themselves be easily surrounded.
@@evangregory14 I made it require a reaction by the person who isnt attacking so it has a cost
*Disarm*: literal garbage since the creature can just pick up the weapon for free on their next turn.
Hitting cover allows that objects do have hit points and can be destroyed.
Flanking doesn’t work for 5e for the simple fact that getting advantage so easily from position undoes several powerful spells and entire class feature that are meant to give advantage.
I play w/ minis and it doesn’t matter the class rules just don’t support that rule.
Wait, you are aware that both with the tumble and overrun rules neither would provoke an AoO right? You are never leaving their threat range. You are passing through squares that they threaten, but never leaving their reach. Even tumbling through their square, you never leave.
Yes, I should have stated clearly that when I thought of it, I was thinking of it as a means to move through someone's space to keep going. I never stated that, which is my bad.
due to 5e "stream lining" normal weapons feels very bare bones
The downside to all these combat rules is that enemies get to used them too.
what about facing?
Mark is pretty overpowered simply because it takes up no action economy. Maybe if it were a bonus action this would be more balanced.
Really flanking shouldn't be a thing if you can just freely run around enemies...
We. It going to talk about Variant Rule; Facing? It’s in the same section as Flanking
I didn't cover Facing like I didn't cover Diagonals. Yes they are variant rules but I feel those are befitting a miniature or war game scenario than d&d. Again the same argument could be made for flanking. They make the focus solely and the minis and the map and less about the story and what's happening
Nerd Immersion I agree it’s more complicated, I just saw it as more befitting thematically than flanking. More complicated but more dynamic.
Second
Your baby is crying ;)
First! HI :)
why try to explain rules you don't understand?