Because it's just 240V, which needs about the same insulation thickness as your computer's power cord. Quite unlike a big railway catenary that carries 15,000 Volts and needs those long ceramic insulators.
Truly excellent video. Great detailed explanation of the controls. You clearly have some heavy duty electronic control experience. Very nice workmanship on the wiring and control boards. The steeple cab seems to have substantially more power than the open unit. I assume it was intended to pull some cars - yes? Thanks for your efforts - keep 'em coming.
Thank you very much! The steeple cab was designed for pulling multiple cars, thus it carries larger power equipment. More vids to come on this subject :)
They are from Radio Shack! I bought a bunch of them on clearance when they were closing up, I do miss having those basic electronic parts right down the street. RIP Radio Shack...
I prefer to use discrete circuitry whenever I can, there is much enjoyment derived from having to piece together logic gates and op amps to get the functionality you want. I do like using microprocessors for certain tasks, but my coding skills arent as good as my circuit design skills lol
This seems a very sophisticated rive system with all those electronics. I'm comparing it with the trams on the Manx Electric Railway on the Isle of Man. Well over 100 years old but still using the original control systems.
I’m echoing others… Yes, a presentation of the braking systems would be great! Does any tram use resistive (maybe not regenerative) motor braking as well? And do the air brakes have variable pressure control (aka Westinghouse valves), or more a set-unset spring vs air-pressure mechanism? Great work, I’m full of envy… 😅
When I had some permanent magnet motors on the equipment we did have dynamic braking as it is very easy to implement as the motor is always acting as a generator when not powered. Once I switched over to series wound it become a bit more work that wasn't really worth it, although totally doable. Just requires more contactors to reconfigure the field to be seperated from the armature circuit, the field then connected to the IGBT through a low value resistor and the armature would be connected to a large grid resistor. If I get bored someday I'll add that circuit, provisions were made on the steeple cab for such a mod.
This is really interesting. So basically, each piece of equipment carries it's own power supply, which produces a somewhat controlled 36 VDC supply for the golf cart motors, and then a solid state controller controls the DC voltage to the motor so that you don't need any resistance grids or anything like that? All of those capacitors I assume also absorb the starting current which is why your draw on the overhead is so low, and you don't have to worry so much about burning in loose connections. I thought it was interesting that you highlighted the microswitch and contactor for shuting off current. Working on electric golf carts many years ago I remember they had a 36 volt solenoid and microswitch that served the same purpose. Electric railway equipment handles the same thing with the line switch. I had two questions, which may be answered in part 2. There doesn't seem to be any protection on these circuits, for shorts or overloads. Is it just that everything is so oversized you don't have to worry about it, or that it would be cheaper to just replace a component that burns up? The other is whether you've ever thought about how this system might work with multiple control? I don't think you mentioned whether the control power comes from the same supply as traction or it's own supply. I wonder whether you could control multiple control boards with a single controller?
The catenary is fused, the control circuits are fused, however the traction circuits onboard are not. This is one of the reasons why I have a lot of instrumentation, if there is a short or something drawing a lot of current I will see it quickly. You are also correct in that everything is oversized so its not really an issue, if something is shorted bad enough to burn up, it was bad anyways so no protection will save it at that point lol
I forwarded this to a mate that's interested in electronics. Tho I don't understand it entirely I agree with another subscriber it's a joy to watch anything that you show regarding the railway. Glad you got more subs. Of anything that is a backyard railway anywhere on RUclips this is far by the most interesting 👍
Very well done, I enjoy watching your videos. The TL494 has been around since the early 1980's and has proven itself to be very reliable I have many in hand and they are one of my prefered parts. What is the leakage current on the 240VAC overhead wiring? The 240VAC motor with a VFD is an interesting idea, it should work fine, the rectified DC capacitor bank in the VFD may work as an energy storage in much the same way the capacitor bank works in your 36 voltage controller. It may even be possible to store more energy due to the V^2 in the power formula. I do like the simple 36VDC PWM system, it could at a pinch run from onboard batteries. kk
There is almost no leakage current on the catenary, even when everything is soaking wet which is really surprising considering the wire rests directly on the wooden cross arms. For the VFD, I fully plan on adding more capacitors to the front end if it is deemed necessary however the VFD that I sourced already has a very large bank and it will power the motor for quite some time after the power is interrupted. My biggest concern with using a VFD has always been the voltage input tolerance, because sometimes the line voltage can sag down to 200V when pulling up the hill at high speed. Supposedly the VFD I have will go down to 180V before it faults, so we shall see :) I agree that the 36V system is best for simplicity, which is one of the reasons I have used it for so many years. But like everything in the world, there comes a time to evolve so it is time to experiment a bit, just as we began the transition away from resistor based speed controls 25 years ago. Should be a fun experiment and I'm hoping it works out well. You are right about the ol TL494, I've been using them in this fashion since the late 90's and have never had a single failure. At one point I tried to use an LM3524 as its technically more fitting for this application but I had nothing but problems with oscillation and instability so I scrapped that design and kept using the 494. No need to fix what wasn't broken!
Thank you very much for your reply, it is very interesting, I guess the volts per inch of wood is quite low. It will be interesting to see how the drop out voltage on the VFD capacitors works out, maybe a diode to a battery with a voltage just above the VFD cut out voltage would work, it could auto charge when sufficient voltage is available. I expect there will be cheap batteries from EV's that have lost sufficient capacity for there intended purpose that could be modified for use. A battery could replace additional capacitors and potentially get you home if the 240VAC fails. Many VFD's pump up the capacitor bank voltage when braking, this excess power could dump into the battery. If you decide to "role your own" VFD some of the dsPIC's are quite good. Microchip tends not to make chips obsolete they just seem to get more expensive. @@CNW4145
I have considered the possibility of using a small bank of lithium batteries for extra backup if needed, and at one point started work on designing my own VFD so that I could avoid the low voltage alarms altogether. Nowadays they are so cheap I figured why not try an off the shelf model first, for the $250 I spent if it doesn't work out I can put it on my shop air compressor or something. Looking forward to trying it out, first I have to modify the trucks to accept the motors and then its play time. There will be videos on the whole process so be sure to stick around :)
You would be surprised how good wood is as an insulator at these relatively lower voltages. Those wood strains used on the curves were commonly used by electric railways on 600 volt trolley wire. Third rail beams, mounted to a grounded truck frame, were made of wood. In the early days, the CA&E even supported the 600v 3rd rail on wood blocks. In the case of this line, that 240 would have to get across the cross arm and down the pole to get a path to ground.
Those higher voltage motors are much more expensive than the low voltage ones, because everyone else is using them! I am however planning an AC traction system with a VFD very soon, so stay tuned for that :)
You're only 30 min from us. It's pretty cool. So, do you have visitors that come ride during the season like an attraction, or is this just a self hobby? My autistic son (16 in May) is really liking your setup.
I'm always impressed by the amount of work and craftmanship in this operation! The GE controller of the 119 seems like those used in Milan (Italy) fleet of Peter Witt streetcars (built in 1930, still in revenue service).
I saw some of those older cars in operation in Milan when I was there last fall, sadly I didn't get to ride one but they sure looked great running through the streets!
Very interesting that in the 119 the position for the controller is on the right side intsted of the left! I'd have to hange out the side of cab to drive it LOL! I'd love to see a video in the curvesider car at some point as it has always looked half way finished and not fully complete, let me know if my view is incorrect of course. As an electrical nerd I did appreciate this video especially your use of the transformers on the cars!
I will make a video on that car, it has many problems that need addressed before it is fully functional so you are correct in that its not quite finished.
OMG. That clacking from that controller sounds exactly as I remember it from the trams of my youth. I always wondered why they made that noise, and now, a couple of decades later, I know. Do you know if, in a big tram, they set different resistor combinations or something else? If it's the former, then they worked the same way a CGA or EGA graphics card produces different colours on its port lines.
Love your content. Forgot to subscribe a couple of weeks ago and couldn’t remember the name of the channel. It was really difficult finding the channel again. I searched electric 24in gauge or overhead rr stuff like that. Maybe there’s a way to add search tags or make the channel pop up in searches better. Would think it would greatly increase your traffic and revenue.
I like how this actual old school GE controller is backed by modern power electronics. It made it feel like an actual old tram while having benefits of modern technology.
il like lo meriti in pieno...un video molto bello e istruttivo. Mi piace l'impianto che hai fatto, solo elettronica vecchio stile, niente microprocessori..fantastico. Mi piace anche il compressore sulla steeple cab. Ma di compressore ne hai uno o due?
i have some complete golf carts can i take all the stuff out off it and make a setup top cable + rail - will that work in dc like that if not why thank you
I’ll dare a simple and partial answer…; The traction system needs lots of amps, and that demands chunky cables. An overhead wire at 36 V DC would be very cumbersome and expensive. A transformer trades (AC) amps to voltage (with some loss). Low amps and higher voltage means a light thin overhead cable - but also a shock risk…😅 The solution for 36v DC @ ≈ 100 A could be a third contact rail on the ground. But THAT is not friendly to kids or animals - or anyone else…😅 Simple beginning: Use batteries in the rebuilt golf cart tram…?
In the very early days of this railway they tried to use 120V AC for the catenary but found that the rust on the rail was enough insulation that the cars would not operate smoothly. The other problem is that as the voltage gets lower, you need more current- a long run of catenary would have to use very large wire to be effective. I do have a friend who is using a 3rd rail powered with 36 V DC and its working ok for him, but its a fairly short and flat run. Many trolley systems in the US used 600V DC, while in Europe 1.5KV, 3KV, and 25KV AC are the norm. These voltage are instantly lethal and could not be used safely in a hobby setting, but I threw them out there for comparison. The other poster is correct on all accounts, and I agree a battery system would be your easiest way to start.
@@CNW4145 ok thank you i will haft to go batery then and put a cable up for looks and i anly have a 2 acker lot to play on and live i just think your set up is cool and wanted one off my own
I am wondering why the choice to run the railroad on electricity vs internal combustion engines? What you did is beyond imagination. Really super nice but it seems like a lot more work using electricity to run the railroad.
It was done this way to be as prototypical as possible, as almost all trolley operations are powered by catenary. For me, running via electricity is much simpler than dealing with gas, oil, and engines. However if I was a mechanic and not an electrical guy then I would probably feel different lol
The entire operation is a joy and privilege to watch, it is a testament to simple yet durable and effective.
Thank you!
I would like to know more about the airbrake system on the steeple cab.
Video coming in the future about this!
Interesting Electrical explanation
Nice Review !!!. Very heavy duty, love it.
Hi 👋🏻 Dude 😊 I know nothing about electronics but I found that really interesting 🤔 I only do 00 model railways 👍🏻🏴
Why does it look like none of the catenary lines are insulated at the power poles or on the trolly car?
Because it's just 240V, which needs about the same insulation thickness as your computer's power cord. Quite unlike a big railway catenary that carries 15,000 Volts and needs those long ceramic insulators.
Truly excellent video. Great detailed explanation of the controls. You clearly have some heavy duty electronic control experience. Very nice workmanship on the wiring and control boards.
The steeple cab seems to have substantially more power than the open unit. I assume it was intended to pull some cars - yes?
Thanks for your efforts - keep 'em coming.
Thank you very much! The steeple cab was designed for pulling multiple cars, thus it carries larger power equipment. More vids to come on this subject :)
Pretty cool! I recognized the little prototyping board for the PWM circuit in the open car; I used to buy those little boards at Radio Shack!
They are from Radio Shack! I bought a bunch of them on clearance when they were closing up, I do miss having those basic electronic parts right down the street. RIP Radio Shack...
I prefer to use discrete circuitry whenever I can, there is much enjoyment derived from having to piece together logic gates and op amps to get the functionality you want. I do like using microprocessors for certain tasks, but my coding skills arent as good as my circuit design skills lol
This seems a very sophisticated rive system with all those electronics.
I'm comparing it with the trams on the Manx Electric Railway on the Isle of Man. Well over 100 years old but still using the original control systems.
I am definitely NOT a tech nerd, but it is always interesting to watch somebody who obviously knows what he is talking about.
Woo! Another RRVT video!
I’m echoing others… Yes, a presentation of the braking systems would be great!
Does any tram use resistive (maybe not regenerative) motor braking as well?
And do the air brakes have variable pressure control (aka Westinghouse valves), or more a set-unset spring vs air-pressure mechanism?
Great work, I’m full of envy… 😅
When I had some permanent magnet motors on the equipment we did have dynamic braking as it is very easy to implement as the motor is always acting as a generator when not powered. Once I switched over to series wound it become a bit more work that wasn't really worth it, although totally doable. Just requires more contactors to reconfigure the field to be seperated from the armature circuit, the field then connected to the IGBT through a low value resistor and the armature would be connected to a large grid resistor. If I get bored someday I'll add that circuit, provisions were made on the steeple cab for such a mod.
The brakes are simply a variable pressure valve that operates a spring return cylinder, there will be a video in the future about this.
great video please keep them coming😊
This is really interesting. So basically, each piece of equipment carries it's own power supply, which produces a somewhat controlled 36 VDC supply for the golf cart motors, and then a solid state controller controls the DC voltage to the motor so that you don't need any resistance grids or anything like that? All of those capacitors I assume also absorb the starting current which is why your draw on the overhead is so low, and you don't have to worry so much about burning in loose connections. I thought it was interesting that you highlighted the microswitch and contactor for shuting off current. Working on electric golf carts many years ago I remember they had a 36 volt solenoid and microswitch that served the same purpose. Electric railway equipment handles the same thing with the line switch. I had two questions, which may be answered in part 2. There doesn't seem to be any protection on these circuits, for shorts or overloads. Is it just that everything is so oversized you don't have to worry about it, or that it would be cheaper to just replace a component that burns up? The other is whether you've ever thought about how this system might work with multiple control? I don't think you mentioned whether the control power comes from the same supply as traction or it's own supply. I wonder whether you could control multiple control boards with a single controller?
The catenary is fused, the control circuits are fused, however the traction circuits onboard are not. This is one of the reasons why I have a lot of instrumentation, if there is a short or something drawing a lot of current I will see it quickly. You are also correct in that everything is oversized so its not really an issue, if something is shorted bad enough to burn up, it was bad anyways so no protection will save it at that point lol
WOW I thought I knew electronics, you blew me away !!!!! You are a genus Keep up with the great work and videos.
Very interesting...thanks for sharing!
I forwarded this to a mate that's interested in electronics. Tho I don't understand it entirely I agree with another subscriber it's a joy to watch anything that you show regarding the railway. Glad you got more subs. Of anything that is a backyard railway anywhere on RUclips this is far by the most interesting 👍
Fascinating. Everything made sense apart from "charlie car". The minutes of Google has produced no results that seem to fit.
Very well done, I enjoy watching your videos. The TL494 has been around since the early 1980's and has proven itself to be very reliable I have many in hand and they are one of my prefered parts.
What is the leakage current on the 240VAC overhead wiring? The 240VAC motor with a VFD is an interesting idea, it should work fine, the rectified DC capacitor bank in the VFD may work as an energy storage in much the same way the capacitor bank works in your 36 voltage controller. It may even be possible to store more energy due to the V^2 in the power formula. I do like the simple 36VDC PWM system, it could at a pinch run from onboard batteries. kk
There is almost no leakage current on the catenary, even when everything is soaking wet which is really surprising considering the wire rests directly on the wooden cross arms. For the VFD, I fully plan on adding more capacitors to the front end if it is deemed necessary however the VFD that I sourced already has a very large bank and it will power the motor for quite some time after the power is interrupted. My biggest concern with using a VFD has always been the voltage input tolerance, because sometimes the line voltage can sag down to 200V when pulling up the hill at high speed. Supposedly the VFD I have will go down to 180V before it faults, so we shall see :) I agree that the 36V system is best for simplicity, which is one of the reasons I have used it for so many years. But like everything in the world, there comes a time to evolve so it is time to experiment a bit, just as we began the transition away from resistor based speed controls 25 years ago. Should be a fun experiment and I'm hoping it works out well. You are right about the ol TL494, I've been using them in this fashion since the late 90's and have never had a single failure. At one point I tried to use an LM3524 as its technically more fitting for this application but I had nothing but problems with oscillation and instability so I scrapped that design and kept using the 494. No need to fix what wasn't broken!
Thank you very much for your reply, it is very interesting, I guess the volts per inch of wood is quite low. It will be interesting to see how the drop out voltage on the VFD capacitors works out, maybe a diode to a battery with a voltage just above the VFD cut out voltage would work, it could auto charge when sufficient voltage is available. I expect there will be cheap batteries from EV's that have lost sufficient capacity for there intended purpose that could be modified for use. A battery could replace additional capacitors and potentially get you home if the 240VAC fails. Many VFD's pump up the capacitor bank voltage when braking, this excess power could dump into the battery. If you decide to "role your own" VFD some of the dsPIC's are quite good. Microchip tends not to make chips obsolete they just seem to get more expensive. @@CNW4145
I have considered the possibility of using a small bank of lithium batteries for extra backup if needed, and at one point started work on designing my own VFD so that I could avoid the low voltage alarms altogether. Nowadays they are so cheap I figured why not try an off the shelf model first, for the $250 I spent if it doesn't work out I can put it on my shop air compressor or something. Looking forward to trying it out, first I have to modify the trucks to accept the motors and then its play time. There will be videos on the whole process so be sure to stick around :)
You would be surprised how good wood is as an insulator at these relatively lower voltages. Those wood strains used on the curves were commonly used by electric railways on 600 volt trolley wire. Third rail beams, mounted to a grounded truck frame, were made of wood. In the early days, the CA&E even supported the 600v 3rd rail on wood blocks. In the case of this line, that 240 would have to get across the cross arm and down the pole to get a path to ground.
It's very interesting, thank you so much. I have a question: why you are not using a high voltage motor and use this very big transformer?
Those higher voltage motors are much more expensive than the low voltage ones, because everyone else is using them! I am however planning an AC traction system with a VFD very soon, so stay tuned for that :)
@@CNW4145Nice! As an engineer, I really want to see this solution *_* Thank you, I love rail transport, especially it is electrical.
@@CNW4145 I would love to see this too :D
You're only 30 min from us. It's pretty cool. So, do you have visitors that come ride during the season like an attraction, or is this just a self hobby?
My autistic son (16 in May) is really liking your setup.
Unfortunately I have to keep the railway private because of liability concerns, so its just a hobby. Glad to hear your son is enjoying the content :)
Thanks for sharing! There is a LOT more to these than I expected and it looks like you thought of everything and then some!
Интересно!
I'm always impressed by the amount of work and craftmanship in this operation!
The GE controller of the 119 seems like those used in Milan (Italy) fleet of Peter Witt streetcars (built in 1930, still in revenue service).
I saw some of those older cars in operation in Milan when I was there last fall, sadly I didn't get to ride one but they sure looked great running through the streets!
Very interesting that in the 119 the position for the controller is on the right side intsted of the left! I'd have to hange out the side of cab to drive it LOL!
I'd love to see a video in the curvesider car at some point as it has always looked half way finished and not fully complete, let me know if my view is incorrect of course. As an electrical nerd I did appreciate this video especially your use of the transformers on the cars!
I will make a video on that car, it has many problems that need addressed before it is fully functional so you are correct in that its not quite finished.
Never say NEVER! You have now invoked a potential catastrophic failure. 😢
Hush! No failures lol
OMG. That clacking from that controller sounds exactly as I remember it from the trams of my youth. I always wondered why they made that noise, and now, a couple of decades later, I know.
Do you know if, in a big tram, they set different resistor combinations or something else? If it's the former, then they worked the same way a CGA or EGA graphics card produces different colours on its port lines.
For many years resistor banks were the primary speed control on this type of equipment. Nowadays most everything is semiconductor based.
Love your content. Forgot to subscribe a couple of weeks ago and couldn’t remember the name of the channel. It was really difficult finding the channel again. I searched electric 24in gauge or overhead rr stuff like that. Maybe there’s a way to add search tags or make the channel pop up in searches better. Would think it would greatly increase your traffic and revenue.
You were close, I use 2 foot gauge as a tag lol. In any case, welcome back aboard!!
I like how this actual old school GE controller is backed by modern power electronics. It made it feel like an actual old tram while having benefits of modern technology.
That was the goal, I'm glad you see it too!
สุดยอดเลยครับ 🥷🇹🇭
il like lo meriti in pieno...un video molto bello e istruttivo. Mi piace l'impianto che hai fatto, solo elettronica vecchio stile, niente microprocessori..fantastico. Mi piace anche il compressore sulla steeple cab. Ma di compressore ne hai uno o due?
There is only 1 compressor, but everything else is duplicated.
i have some complete golf carts can i take all the stuff out off it and make a setup top cable + rail - will that work in dc like that if not why thank you
I’ll dare a simple and partial answer…; The traction system needs lots of amps, and that demands chunky cables. An overhead wire at 36 V DC would be very cumbersome and expensive.
A transformer trades (AC) amps to voltage (with some loss). Low amps and higher voltage means a light thin overhead cable - but also a shock risk…😅
The solution for 36v DC @ ≈ 100 A could be a third contact rail on the ground. But THAT is not friendly to kids or animals - or anyone else…😅
Simple beginning: Use batteries in the rebuilt golf cart tram…?
In the very early days of this railway they tried to use 120V AC for the catenary but found that the rust on the rail was enough insulation that the cars would not operate smoothly. The other problem is that as the voltage gets lower, you need more current- a long run of catenary would have to use very large wire to be effective. I do have a friend who is using a 3rd rail powered with 36 V DC and its working ok for him, but its a fairly short and flat run. Many trolley systems in the US used 600V DC, while in Europe 1.5KV, 3KV, and 25KV AC are the norm. These voltage are instantly lethal and could not be used safely in a hobby setting, but I threw them out there for comparison. The other poster is correct on all accounts, and I agree a battery system would be your easiest way to start.
@@CNW4145 ok thank you i will haft to go batery then and put a cable up for looks and i anly have a 2 acker lot to play on and live i just think your set up is cool and wanted one off my own
I am wondering why the choice to run the railroad on electricity vs internal combustion engines? What you did is beyond imagination. Really super nice but it seems like a lot more work using electricity to run the railroad.
It was done this way to be as prototypical as possible, as almost all trolley operations are powered by catenary. For me, running via electricity is much simpler than dealing with gas, oil, and engines. However if I was a mechanic and not an electrical guy then I would probably feel different lol
@@CNW4145 Ok, got it. Thank you
Very neat how some of the cars have actual trolley controls in them.
I wish I had a few more of those controls, they are really cool.
🎉 💙