There actually was a mass combat supplement in 1st edition AD&D... the Battlesystem boxed set. The best thing about it was the cover of the boxed set with a battle ax wielding barbarian riding on a triceratops.
And the 1983-1985 Frank Mentzer BECMI system includes mass combat as part of the Companion Rules (green box). I ran a number of mass combat encounters using them in the 80’s and 90’s in the progress of the characters acquiring dominions later in their careers in several campaigns.
I would love to play a wargame for mass combat for D&D but I think the problem is, nowadays, most players wouldn't have the interest in learning some pretty complicated rules just to run big battles that might happen only rarely in a campaign. It's only for the wargamers.
Bring on the spikegrowth, bonfires, and hey you can banish your own lads if they just get into that much trouble if they get into that much trouble. Provided you have access to it.
Ah, but you see, I deliberately had both factions be almost identical save for their uniforms. By the end of the battle, the players were questioning the entire point of the war, which was exactly what I had intended. It also helped that it was a Napoleonic setting with muskets.
Before i get through the video i want to explain how i just did a mass combat in my game for my players and see how similar or different it was to how you described! Conclusion: Holy crap our systems were so similar! Because my dudes were low level i didn't make as many systems as you have but i'll be taking a lot of these ideas in the future if they are higher level! Basically my armies were separated into units. Each unit was either 100 or 200 people (hp) and i adjusted their total health pool accordingly. They could move 10 feet per turn on our board but you'd change it based on your setting, my board was quite small so it made sense. Units were either ranged or melee, never a mix. A player could take command of one of the units but if they didn't the unit would move twords the nearest enemy unit. When my players took charge of a unit they would merge spaces with them and were able to do all their normal actions. When 2 units clashed both would take action at the same time rolling a d20 for damage vs the units health pool and then the players would take a percentage of that damage. My guys were level 5 so it was like 30% or something like that. Then the players could go and instead of rolling to hit they would just instantly roll their damage for the ability they used. If they used an AOE it would do 1.5x damage. This really made them feel like great heros on the battle cleaving through the enemy. In my particular setting they were fighting hords of goblins so it made sense. They were defending a city. If one unit was 2x larger than another they would deal 2x damage to simulate being able to overwhelm and surround the enemy. So there was lots of falling back to the medical tents which gave passive HP per turn and made things like flanking and cavalry charges really effective. The goblins had a trebuchet and a shaman who was dropping magic bombs on the players (I used real spells like fireball) and the players had 4 ballistas on the walls. It was a lot of fun, the players got SUPER attached to a lot of NPCs which i never planned on making. One of my players was even visiting the medical tents after the battle and wanted to help heal the NPC soldiers, i didn't expect that from them but it was an easy and awesome world building flavor break. Due to their actions and not just gameafying my DND game i gave them bonuses in that town such as discounts sense they really got immersed into those NPCs.
This is great! Thanks for sharing! I'm seeing up for a 5e seige battle, and I was looking for ideas. This is my second attempt at a "storm the castle" scenario. My first focused on what you referred to as "traversing the battlefield as a maze". This next scenario, I was thinking of isolated side encounters to tip the battle in their side's favor, or allowing the players to command troops in battle. Your video has given me great ideas for the latter. I don't have time before my session to incorporate your battle system, but I plan to simplify the idea for this session and use more as I have time to plan... and if the players enjoy it. I also like the comments. I have played D&D since '87, and I've used mostly core books as a basis for homebrew adventures. I had no idea about the supplements for mass combat.
The battalion combat reminds me of the newer fire emblem system. I like it and the tweaks you made are great. I’m going to implement this system for sure. With narrative tweaks ofc
Haven't even touched anything related to mass combat in 5e. In prior 3.5 and 4 games we've done a few more one shotty type things. Mostly my strategy is up the time scale, but largely run it like a standard combat where rounds represent minutes of action and some of the more nitty gritty rules like AOOs are smoothed over for the sake of a grander battle abstraction. I was running an epic level 3.5 Planescape campaign where the PCs were involved in a sort of reverse Helm's Deep. The Defending forces were not only fortified, but also much better armed, more numerous and organized. The PCs had to obtain a particular item from the fortress, and they encountered a small force that could only just maintain a blockade. The PCs being epic level adventurers were able to convince the blockade force that they could not only stage a successful attack, but also recapture their lost fortress. Course the PCs just wanted a distraction. I let the PCs handle organization, build siege equipment, but once the battle started each of them were their own unit on the battlefield with options to command their allies kind of like a summoned beast in 5e. Course once the druid became a huge elemental tornado everything kind of went to hell, but it worked pretty well. The other time was a brand new 4E campaign that took inspiration from the opening battle of Gladiator. The PCs were convicts drafted to be the front lines of a very well organized Romanesque army. The opposing force was initially a massive barbarian mob with various beasts, and the convicts were meant only to help slow the initial charge (but if they survive they would earn their freedom). Given the PCs were level 1s I used a dual map model where I had a total battle view, and the PCs could only see a very small section. We started with a pretty standard battle, but added that they had the option of moving to another section: essentially retreat back to their army, move toward the enemy army, or strafe along the battle lines that were being quickly mowed over by the barbarian mob. And some random odds that governed reinforcements from either side and "environmental" hazards like arrows, rampaging beasts or siege weapons firing in the area. And then the BBEG and its dragons showed up and the scenario changed from navigate a battlefield to THERE IS FIRE EVERYWHERE JUST FREAKIN RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good times.
There is also a very good, though also a bit abstract and crunchy, system from BECMI called war machine that I used back then and have adapted for use in 5e? The only reason I bring it up is because you didn't mention it so I thought I'd see if you came across it in your research?
Others have already mentioned, but echoing the sentiment: BattleSystem (1e and 2e), mass combat in BECMI, various Dragon magazine takes, the mass combat for Dark Sun and Birthright, etc. Then in 3.x we had the Miniatures Handbook, Heroes of Battle, and more. There are sooo many official D&D mass combat rules over the years throughout the editions.
"Think about the battle scene from ANTZ"
I can assure you, I am not emotionally prepared to think about the battle scene from ANTZ.
There actually was a mass combat supplement in 1st edition AD&D... the Battlesystem boxed set. The best thing about it was the cover of the boxed set with a battle ax wielding barbarian riding on a triceratops.
I still have it.
And the 1983-1985 Frank Mentzer BECMI system includes mass combat as part of the Companion Rules (green box). I ran a number of mass combat encounters using them in the 80’s and 90’s in the progress of the characters acquiring dominions later in their careers in several campaigns.
I would love to play a wargame for mass combat for D&D but I think the problem is, nowadays, most players wouldn't have the interest in learning some pretty complicated rules just to run big battles that might happen only rarely in a campaign. It's only for the wargamers.
Bring on the spikegrowth, bonfires, and hey you can banish your own lads if they just get into that much trouble if they get into that much trouble.
Provided you have access to it.
Ah, but you see, I deliberately had both factions be almost identical save for their uniforms. By the end of the battle, the players were questioning the entire point of the war, which was exactly what I had intended. It also helped that it was a Napoleonic setting with muskets.
Before i get through the video i want to explain how i just did a mass combat in my game for my players and see how similar or different it was to how you described!
Conclusion: Holy crap our systems were so similar! Because my dudes were low level i didn't make as many systems as you have but i'll be taking a lot of these ideas in the future if they are higher level!
Basically my armies were separated into units. Each unit was either 100 or 200 people (hp) and i adjusted their total health pool accordingly. They could move 10 feet per turn on our board but you'd change it based on your setting, my board was quite small so it made sense. Units were either ranged or melee, never a mix. A player could take command of one of the units but if they didn't the unit would move twords the nearest enemy unit. When my players took charge of a unit they would merge spaces with them and were able to do all their normal actions. When 2 units clashed both would take action at the same time rolling a d20 for damage vs the units health pool and then the players would take a percentage of that damage. My guys were level 5 so it was like 30% or something like that. Then the players could go and instead of rolling to hit they would just instantly roll their damage for the ability they used. If they used an AOE it would do 1.5x damage. This really made them feel like great heros on the battle cleaving through the enemy. In my particular setting they were fighting hords of goblins so it made sense. They were defending a city. If one unit was 2x larger than another they would deal 2x damage to simulate being able to overwhelm and surround the enemy. So there was lots of falling back to the medical tents which gave passive HP per turn and made things like flanking and cavalry charges really effective.
The goblins had a trebuchet and a shaman who was dropping magic bombs on the players (I used real spells like fireball) and the players had 4 ballistas on the walls.
It was a lot of fun, the players got SUPER attached to a lot of NPCs which i never planned on making. One of my players was even visiting the medical tents after the battle and wanted to help heal the NPC soldiers, i didn't expect that from them but it was an easy and awesome world building flavor break. Due to their actions and not just gameafying my DND game i gave them bonuses in that town such as discounts sense they really got immersed into those NPCs.
This is great! Thanks for sharing!
I'm seeing up for a 5e seige battle, and I was looking for ideas. This is my second attempt at a "storm the castle" scenario. My first focused on what you referred to as "traversing the battlefield as a maze". This next scenario, I was thinking of isolated side encounters to tip the battle in their side's favor, or allowing the players to command troops in battle. Your video has given me great ideas for the latter. I don't have time before my session to incorporate your battle system, but I plan to simplify the idea for this session and use more as I have time to plan... and if the players enjoy it.
I also like the comments. I have played D&D since '87, and I've used mostly core books as a basis for homebrew adventures. I had no idea about the supplements for mass combat.
Your commentary on your own statements is hilarious, this channel is so underrated
The battalion combat reminds me of the newer fire emblem system. I like it and the tweaks you made are great. I’m going to implement this system for sure. With narrative tweaks ofc
Haven't even touched anything related to mass combat in 5e. In prior 3.5 and 4 games we've done a few more one shotty type things.
Mostly my strategy is up the time scale, but largely run it like a standard combat where rounds represent minutes of action and some of the more nitty gritty rules like AOOs are smoothed over for the sake of a grander battle abstraction.
I was running an epic level 3.5 Planescape campaign where the PCs were involved in a sort of reverse Helm's Deep. The Defending forces were not only fortified, but also much better armed, more numerous and organized. The PCs had to obtain a particular item from the fortress, and they encountered a small force that could only just maintain a blockade. The PCs being epic level adventurers were able to convince the blockade force that they could not only stage a successful attack, but also recapture their lost fortress. Course the PCs just wanted a distraction. I let the PCs handle organization, build siege equipment, but once the battle started each of them were their own unit on the battlefield with options to command their allies kind of like a summoned beast in 5e. Course once the druid became a huge elemental tornado everything kind of went to hell, but it worked pretty well.
The other time was a brand new 4E campaign that took inspiration from the opening battle of Gladiator. The PCs were convicts drafted to be the front lines of a very well organized Romanesque army. The opposing force was initially a massive barbarian mob with various beasts, and the convicts were meant only to help slow the initial charge (but if they survive they would earn their freedom). Given the PCs were level 1s I used a dual map model where I had a total battle view, and the PCs could only see a very small section. We started with a pretty standard battle, but added that they had the option of moving to another section: essentially retreat back to their army, move toward the enemy army, or strafe along the battle lines that were being quickly mowed over by the barbarian mob. And some random odds that governed reinforcements from either side and "environmental" hazards like arrows, rampaging beasts or siege weapons firing in the area. And then the BBEG and its dragons showed up and the scenario changed from navigate a battlefield to THERE IS FIRE EVERYWHERE JUST FREAKIN RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good times.
There is also a very good, though also a bit abstract and crunchy, system from BECMI called war machine that I used back then and have adapted for use in 5e?
The only reason I bring it up is because you didn't mention it so I thought I'd see if you came across it in your research?
It did not! We will have to take a look at this!
@@SkullSplitter let me know if you want my first draft of the 5th edition version in a word doc.
Others have already mentioned, but echoing the sentiment: BattleSystem (1e and 2e), mass combat in BECMI, various Dragon magazine takes, the mass combat for Dark Sun and Birthright, etc. Then in 3.x we had the Miniatures Handbook, Heroes of Battle, and more. There are sooo many official D&D mass combat rules over the years throughout the editions.
Battle System in 2e or Skirmish rules
that hair is rad
Speaking of the realism of fire arrows, The Eastern Roman Empire had napalm flamethrowers
Wasn't it called greek fire or similar?
@@SkullSplitter indeed it was.
Was looking for the rule set you said was posted in description. Did it get taken down?
Will there be a document available?
warmachine and battlesystem
🥳❤️👍🏿
Huzzah!