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Interesting. Im thinking of getting the (upcoming) Wiim Ultra (as a preamp/streamer) and 2x Fosi V3 monoblock amps. Im guessing that would be a good combination. Will adding a Geschelli J2 DAC give an audible difference (for the better) in SQ or will it be very minimal?
Excellent job Randy! I think you are ready to sing "I've been everywhere" (Johnny Cash)! But I digress. I bought the WiiM Pro and Su-1 based on your reviews and am very happy with it. I think that combination offers me more options since I can connect my Teac CD P-650 into the SU-1 so I then can play my Ipod Classic lossless files through the SU-1. I am currently in sonic heaven with the above. Streaming is just so amazing to a 70+ senior audiophile with bad hearing and stiff joints. Thanks again Randy for all the time and effort you put in so I can enjoy a cup of coffee with you while you expound on your passions.
Hi Randy, It’s my first time commenting here or on you tube, love your shows as it has brought so much enjoyment to my audiophile journey! I just got the new WiiM Pro Plus and after looking at the measurements re: ADC, I fully thought I’d be returning it along with the WiiM Pro I bought a couple of weeks ago. But, this new model excels as a remote controllable preamp. I have it now connected to a record player and the improvements over the Pro are substantial! A-B switching between my straight phono preamp and WiiM Pro Plus is nearly indistinguishable compared to the WiiM Mini’s and Pro’s ADC. Also, there is a “cross fade” switch on the WiiM app that eliminates some clicks and pops. I hope this is helpful for everyone.
I just AB’d my new AKM J2 with sparkos dual op amp with my previous topping e30 mkII, which I really like. Biggest difference was the more recessed soundstage lending to a more natural and less in your face presentation. It give my room an overall deeper feel as well. The J2 is a killer for jazz and vocal performances.
Based on your past reviews I've had a J2 on order for a few months. It just arrived this week and I have to agree with you that the Wiim Pro +J2 sounds great. Soundstage is expansive and bass is tight, not muddy like it can get in my room.
I love music but usually can't tell one DAC from another. Even so, you have a way of getting me to want to upgrade to your latest favorites (I'm weak). Thanks for another great comparison video.
Just ordered the J2 S. charcoal aluminum case and blue cover to match my emotiva TA1 and A2 amp. Running KEF Q350's with Klipsch sub and a Rega p2 turntable. I've been on the fence between the geshelli dac and a new cartridge for the turntable. Randy I hope my 50 plus year old ears like the DAC, I bought it because your always praising it. Other people really liked it too.
The DAC will easily beat any turntable, but it all comes down to the quality of the source material. The digital media is much more abused by the loudness war today, the vinyl sometimes sounds better because of its limitation and can't be as abused as digital... But with quality mixing / mastering, a good DAC will really shines and leave any turntable in the "dust". 😀
Lolol! Fidgety stacks at the intro 😂👌🏼But seriously, appreciate the time taken in defining the intricacies in some impressive equipment relative to cost. My interest is always peaked with these comparisons, in particular how well the J2 holds up in so many situations.
I own the WiiM Pro and have it streaming via digital coax to my PS Audio GainCell DAC/Pre. But! I heard all of the hype about the SU-1 so I bought one, as you never know... Some of this inexpensive gear can sound incredibly good on the right system. I am using a 1970 vintage Sansui 4000 stereo receiver to power my Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers. The PS Audio unit handles the digital side of things through its analog output to the Sansui AUX in, and is also the preamp as it is true analog on its output, not digital. I am using Mogami 2964 coaxial wire and Eminence RCA interconnects with all of the gear. Well, being honest here, the DAC in the WiiM Pro actually sounds better on my particular system, vs having the SU-1 in the chain, by a lot. If I did not have the PS Audio in the stream, and went directly to the Sansui via the line out of the WiiM, I could live with the WiiM internal DAC, on my system. Unfortunately, the SU-1 was rather flat sounding and a bit veiled, none of the sparkle or dynamics were there that the WiiM Pro, and I have a WiiM mini, both produced with the old Sansui 4000 receiver via line out of both WiiM units. I was actually taken aback at the results. Just to add, I read one review on Amazon that compared the SU-1 to the Pontus II. The reviewer stated it was 80% there on his system. Not hard to believe, depending upon the system. Which brings up my experience with the Denafrips Venus II 12th DAC, which I recently sold... It too sounded like a wet blanket and veiled when paired with the PS Audio and or the Sansui receiver. So, there is something to that gentleman's review regarding the sound of the SU-1 and Denafrips DACs. If he is getting 80% of the Pontus II out of the SU-1, it would also say to me, that I would get a veiled and wet blanket experience with the SU-1, and that is exactly what I experienced. I wish I had something else to use the SU-1 with to see its true potential, but I don't, so I sent her back.
Similar experience here. Was really disappointed in the SU-1 (relative to the Schitt Modi 3+ already in my system) - wet blanket is perfect description - and returned the SU-1. (Tried it in another system using the WiiM mini this time, with similar results.) I don't understand the hype about this product. Thanks for corroborating my experience.
Geshelli will have a new J2 featuring the AKM 4499 DAC chip released soon. I was told end of August. We are there and I am waiting for my notification to order.
I have an Ares II, and have tried all 3 different firmware updates. They all sound different, but it's hard to say one is really better than the others. I also have an SU-1, and can honestly say I enjoy music from it just as much as the Ares. Never tried the J2, but suspect it's along the same lines. Products like the FOZ SSX can give you more soundstage and separation, but at the cost of sounding less natural. Whether it's more clinical or warm, wide separation or more intimate, it's all personal preference. It really does come down to the speakers and room. I'd love to see this test done blind with a few volunteers and hear their opinions.
I just hooked up the SU1 to my Bluesound node and it significantly better - although as Randy pointed out, the bass is bit much. That said, I also have REL hooked up and toned it down. Happy now.
Where do you live would love to be a part of that testing. We need to get to the bottom of this dac debate, I believe the differences these reviews talk about is insignificant a lot of the time.
Great video! I've just bought the wiim pro plus, I used to listen to my music via Bluetooth...my ears got a sonic shock 😂 that's impressive. I'm listening to more music now, I'm rediscovering my playlist.
Excellent video, Randy...Wiim make one heck of a product. Thanks for all the time you must have had to dedicate for this multi- comparison review. GRRReat!! all the best to you & your family, as always. Cheers from Japan.
SMSL is definitely crushing it. It has better sonic measurements than Geshelli DAC and beats it in ranking. I'm going to order my first DAC today! Thank you CAM!
Great review Randy. Outstanding info here. Happy for the bonus comparo to the Node. Pro plus appears to be a solid product especially at its price point. Thank you !
I'm contemplating a purchase of the Geshelli Labs J2S, with the Sparkos Op Amp. Since this comparison was about just the J2, the Sparkos OpAmp wasn't involved. So, I wonder how it would have ended up with the J2s (with Sparkos OpAmp) in the comparison.
@@TheDarius1968 I have a Topping D70s hooked up to a Keces E40 which I had used for a couple of years which I both found thru Soundnews review . I bought another E40 for desktop (small like a Rega Brio) so looked at other dacs as options. iWii reviewed the Aune with a Sparkos upgrade and claimed it upped the ante in SQ, which it did and it was around the time of the holidays when both Aune and Sparkos were on sale. So, for about the price of the Geshelli which I also considered I gave it a shot. Not that it matters, but another person in a response stated he preferred his Aune over the Geshelli (he had both) so I bet they are on a similar level but do not know if any upgrades were mentioned. I like the Aune with the upgrade, for me it matches the SQ of the d70s and seems to be a bit better with voice and perhaps presence, not much but noticeable for me. One uses AKM and the other an ESS Without the Sparkos it didn't impress me as it sounded typical of a $200 to $300 dac. A sparkos opamp may do similar for the Geshelli for all I know. On higher end equipment, do not know when either would become a bottle neck but they are good dacs for my uses. Lots of choices today.
Man, that sounds like a lot of work. I ran a similar test yesterday with Audrivana Studio connected via USB to an iFi Zen Signature and also connected via UPNP to a Wiim Mini. The Mini was connected to the optical input on the Paradigm Link room correction module and the Zen was connected via the Link's analog input. The sound was much closer than I would have thought. For the most part, it was indistinguishable. If all you're doing is streaming music, the Mini is the more cost-effective choice.
It would also be nice if the wiim could have a usb out like the bluesound node. A lot of cheaper dacs sound better with its usb input, due to better filtering section. Also wiim has promised peq availability. Now that would be something! (hdmi would be nice, but the optical input sort of makes up for it)
Although this is another great video, it still falls short of evaluating streamers. Every streamer review I have seen previously compares them using their internal DACs. In this video, Randy is comparing the internal DACs vs external. I would like to see a review comparing streamers, all using the same external DAC. Many of us already use an external DAC so, aside from differences in the UI or inputs/outputs, is there a sound quality difference between various streamers when using the same external DAC? Can you do one of those Randy?
He'll need help setting up a single or double blind test, which I thought is not that helpful in the context of what this channel is for. Ab testing is somewhat discredited as it mostly picked up the difference between a and b and not long term musical satisfaction. That's why "boom and tizz" speakers sell better at Best buy. I think the food industry still do ab tests religiously because they score points in meeting rooms. That's why mikey D's and supermarket food taste the way they do. Maybe USA is a foodie nirvana, maybe not.
You’re watching the wrong videos if you’re looking for credibility and transparency. Professional reviewers are full of it. Look for folks who buy the gear they review.
Randy, try to snag an expensive streamer and use an external DAC and do A/B's with a Wiim to start to get a handle on how much the streaming functions effect sound. Or don't because it's sure to be, as we used to say, a huge can of worms. Maybe the last component to consider for your system, after hi zoot cables and wires, so not worth consideration on moderately priced systems. I dunno. Does anybody?
I upgraded from a crappy karaoke amp to the yamaha as 301 (105€ used) with the SMSL Su1 (67,99 new) first i tried the ymaha on my pc withoout the dac then with the dac it makes quite a difference worth it.
One the Geshelli website there are three different DAC Chipsets for the J2 ( ES9026PRO / ES9038Q2M / AK4493). Which one do you use? Do you know anything about the differences between these? Thanks!
I have the Wiim Pro and Geshelli J2 AKM. It sounds really good but my Orchard Audio Pecan Pi streamer with dual Burr Brown chips is head and shoulders better in my system.
The pro has Chromecast and more connections if that’s important to you. I’m very happy with a mini and an external DAC, but Chromecast support is a really nice feature.
@@kraig7777 Yep, you get the higher resolutions through the coaxial connection vs the optical. Just a cleaner more dynamic sound, at least on my system. I own both the mini and the pro.
SO im really liking the SU1 that i got for my dedicated stereo setup. I’ve compared to the internal Node DAC and the Arylic S50 Pro DAC as well. Sound stage is wider and the overall is sounds airy. Bass in the higher side, and a tad bit flabby I thought. Toned it down on the REL, and smidge lower bass via tone control and all is well. Now i was explore adding this to my Marantz receiver. BUTT it has no optical out. I guess can just buy a streamer and a RCA switch. Ideas/thoughts on this welcome
When TV drop fibre optical output then HDMI is going to be needed. For stereo I doubt that there would be a noticeable difference. Wiim Pro with a pair of Adam Audio T5V, T7V or T8V (bass down to 33Hz) active speakers, and if budget is tight up grade to external DAC later, makes for a neat set up. If more inputs are needed get a switch box.
I like the sound profile of my Wiim pro better than my Geshelli labs dac with the AKM4493 velvet sound. That said the Gesheli lab dac is so much cleaner. So I just EQ it up with the Schitt audio EQ. The Wiim 10 band EQ does not seem strong enough when feeding the external dac, but great with the internal dac.
It would be interesting to see if the sound of the Wiim Pro + could be improved by using its internal 10-band EQ to tame its base response to something more neutral sounding. It might improve soundstage and imaging too. I know that sounds a bit crazy, but I have found with my own system that if I EQ it to a generally flatter frequency response, the sound stage broadens considerably and imaging is much better. I think frequency response bumps and dips somehow mess with perceived instrument placement. It might be a cheap way to get a little closer to the Wiim/J2 combo sound.
The EQ in the WiiM streamers is simply incredible for fixing the SQ of the stream. When listening to a raw stream with no EQ in the chain, at least in my setup, it totally sucks. That EQ had me cancelling my order for the Eversolo streamer. The WiiM is simply a game changer in regards to its internal OS. I have an $800 Mercury v2 here, and quite frankly, the WiiM Mini and Pro, both walk all over it in my current system.
@@michaelwright1602 Thanks for sharing. Not sure if your using an external dac. but could you hear much of a difference between the mini and the pro ? Thanks
@@deadline7610I did, but is more due to the connection, digital coax vs optical, there is more detail, and just overall better sound via digital coax. And yes, I use a PS Audio DAC, but have used both the Mini and the Pro with direct connections. Don't get me wrong, they both sound good, the Pro just has that little extra spice to it. And, it will depend too on how you listen. If it is just to listen, not getting critical, just enjoying the music, either works fine. Critical listening, and you want to dig as much out of the music at this budget, then the Pro would be the way to go.
@@michaelwright1602 Thanks. Sometimes it's just the little things like a coax cable. I just picked up an ifi power 2 and I noticed an immediate uptick in fidelity in the mini.
I bought the Bluesound Node X a couple of months ago and I can't say I have been very impressed with the sound. I bought it to connect to my Shure SRH1840 and the sound wasn't nice. I connected it to my Beyerdynamic COP and it did sound better, mainly because it has more bass and isn't as detailed. But in the end I went back to my Topping DXPro 3 for my headphones and the Node X is connected to my Roksan K2 integrated amp, which has a really good inbuilt sounding dac
Now what would happen is you'd supplement the Wiim Pro Plus again with an SMSL SU1 for instance? Would this just be a redundant or would this again take the quaility up?
I love your reviews, the new wiim pro plus is the streamer I'm finally going to buy. Thanks! FYI, Your recent videos have had very quiet audio levels According to RUclips stats you are almost 14db too quiet. You could easily up the video volume by 8-9db and still have no clipping.
I recently tried the SMSL SU1 and I got 2 defective units. 1 played intermittently and the replacement just refused to work. I tested with different inputs - Wiim Mini, Wiim pro plus and a computer via SPDIF from soundcard with the same results. Sent them back and ordered a J2
Some of us remain skeptical of listening comparisons that are not done blind. As an Audio HiFi enthusiast, I know enough about how DACs work and feel strongly enough about the stories behind them that I do not trust my lizard brain to make valid sighted judgement. Since using multiple Wiims as sources allows for easy instantaneous switching, I think this would be a perfect opportunity for some trusted RUclips audiophile to blind test Wiim, Pro, Pro+, Pro+ or w/DAC and provide objective as to how big the perceived differences really are.
You're also assuming that external DAC differences will all be 'flushed out' using a $200 streamer. Unlikely. Over SPDIF, you're feeding that DAC using a cheap clock inside the Wiim and not doing much to filter digital noise. I'm not saying the Wiim sounds bad, nor does a Node, but if that's all you use to AB a DAC, blind or otherwise, you're begging the question of whether an improved streamer, or a reclocker from a cheap one like the Node with USB out, will net more than climbing the DAC ladder.
@thestocktrader6544 you can get good sound without overthinking it. There is a lot of gear, no doubt. You also get what you pay for. Randy does a good job showing you that you can get great sound on a budget, but there is a reason that million dollar systems exist. There are no $500 speakers that beat the $30k versions. It's just not reality. Instead of some technical response to your questions, why not visit a dealer, or ring one on the phone? Tell them your use case and your goals, and they will happily advise you on a system, or a ecosystem if you're trying to do whole house or multi-room audio from multiple systems. And if you consult a dealer, hopefully you purchase from them and support them!
@@erics.4113 my dac could care less about the streamer clock, those days are gone. The wiim is bit perfect ! Where is all this digital noise ? How come it didn't show up on ASR measurements.
@thestocktrader6544 the problem is that audiophiles listen to the nonsense, and always believe there is something wrong. One of the best is the Hans bloke on RUclips, he actually believes that upgrading the power supply on a router and buying a network switch with a fancy power supply will improve digital transmission.
@@r423fplip if you have a dealer in range that has high end systems and streamers, ask to bring your Wiim in, because you're not convinced you need a high dollar streamer. Run the experiment yourself!
I have two WiiM hockey puck streamers are bulletproof. I have one system with the SU-1 and the other with the Schiit Modi 3. I don't need anything else until something dies.
Perhaps a dumb question, but I have a mini and been using its internal dac (line out). Would the smsl be a definite upgrade for me? Will be connecting to a fosi v3 with jamo s803.
So the wiim mini and a smsu 1 is the best budget option. Would of loved to see the sound comparison between the mini and the external dac and the pro and external DAC
@@spamcan9208 Exactly. Both offer an independently verified Bit perfect S/PDIF output. The Audio Science Review community (the bane of audiophools) has tested both the existing Mini and Pro models and found they perform pretty much the same when using the digital output AND - for those who think the Pro offers better one box performance - when using the analogue output of the internal DAC. So unless you require the extra features of the Pro, you're better off buying the Mini. The new Pro+ is the mystery box as far as the internal DAC goes, but it's going to be no different to the existing boxes as far as the digital output goes.
Thanks for the great and informative video! I have two questions. Let’s say I’m getting the WiiM Pro Plus. What I will lose not having an HDMI eARC like on the Bluesound Node? And another one. Let’s say that I’m getting only an external DAC like the SU-1 or Geshelli Labs J2 hooked up to directly to my smart TV via optical output. Will I miss a lot of sound quality compared to a streamer like WiiM Pro Plus?
Thanks for this connected series of reviews of the new WiiM streamer. I connected my Wiim Pro to a Topping E50 DAC …and it’s damn nice! Keep up the fight! ☕️🍕🔥🥓👍
Dig your reviews and a new subscriber..... I REALLY like the Geshelli J2 DAC and am on the fence but is it overkill to plug it into a vintage setup with a streaming DAC? I have a Pioneer sx626 pushing Cerwin Vega VS120's and it sounds pretty bitchin as it is.... I can't imagine it having any more warmth, focus or imaging but I could be wrong, will I notice the difference? Need to add streaming and don't particularly want to do a basic BT module, leaning heavily toward the Wiim Pro as at least I'll get an RCA out.... what's the best way to connect to my vintage Pioneer receiver for the best sound quality? Was checking out the Ayima t9 Pro but for around the same price the Wiim Pro seems like the one to get, thoughts?
A lot depends on how revealing/resolving the amp+speakers are. If you have $10,000 speakers/amp, going from a $200 DAC to a $2000 DAC is going to make a HUGE difference. But in a $1000 speaker/amp pair, it will make little difference to upgrade the DAC.
Hey Randy, I was using the Wiim mini with a Modius from Schiit. I recently bought an Eversolo DAC-Z6 and a Wiim Pro. I like that combination's sound; However, I am still within my 30-day return period. My question to you is, should I return the DAC-Z6 and Wiim Pro and upgrade to the DAC-Z8 and use it with the Wiim mini, or should I spend a bit more and get the Eversolo DMP-A6?
DMP-A6 so you have only one device and the sound i would expect to sit between Z6 and Z8. On the Wiim Pro the coax sounds noticable better compaired to the optical out, so i would guess the mini sounds pretty much the same as Pro on optical. I would just get the DMP-A6, or i would keep the Wiim Pro, use it with COAX and upgrade the dac when the time comes. What speakers and amp do you have?
Thank you for the reply. Currently, I'm using KEF Q150s with a Klipsch 10-inch Subwoofer. An Ayima A07 with an upgraded 48v power supply. I have my smart TV connected to the Z6 over Optical for movies and my computer connected over USB, running Audirovana as a media player. I haven't tried the coax out on the Pro. I will give that a try tonight and see how it sounds. I also have a Cambridge AXA35, but I only use that with my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO turntable to play records. As 90% of my listening is streaming from Spotify, Tidal, and Amazon music, I want the best sound for that option. I don't mind upgrading to the Z8 if the sound is noticeably better than the Z6. Also, since I'm up in that price bracket, would it be better to spend a bit more and get a Denafrips ARES II or something from SMSL? My budget right now is about 1k, so anything in that price range is an option. @@ionescugeorge2003
This was very insightful!! Quick question.. I purchased an Onkyo TX-RZ50 and modded it. It has a built-in streamer. I am leaning towards the Ge shelling labs J2 dac. I wanted to know if it's better to buy the Wiim pro plus or keep the Onkyo receiver that streams and connect it to the Shelli J2?
I still don’t understand if I should get the pro Plus over the pro if I already have a good external dac. I don’t have a streamer and I don’t want to spend money in features that I won’t use (internal dac).
I just purchased the wiim pro and the wiim pro plus and connected them to the same amp via a mixer. I streamed the same song from amazon music and I did not hear any difference in the quality of sound. they both sound good. I'm I supposed to hear any difference between them?
In theory, yes. I ran them both into a preamp and definitely heard a difference. Maybe running them through a mixer “leveled” the playing field. Either way I guess you know that if you’re running it through a mixer then you don’t need the pro plus
E arc and an input and output selector knob on front of unit. I hate having to dig into 2 different menus in Wiim app to change output and input. Auto detect has not worked for me.
Thank you for your great review! now I have a Wiim Pro and directly optical out to Audiolab 9000A, Do you think it would be a bigger upgrade to add Geshelli J2?
Randy thank you for all of the quality content. Based on your suggestion I purchased a Geshelli J2 (pallet wood case!). I current stream amazon music via firetv 4k max through my TV optical to the J2 (then to either a McIntosh MA5100 or a Yaqin MC-13S to original Heresy 1's) . I am using almost 100% amazon music - is there any sonic benefit to adding the WIIM Pro vs from the firetv 4k??
Randy are you using Geshelli with akm chip? If it's same chip as Smsl su1, is it just a different implementation that's giving the Geshelli the more organic sound? I'm using a bluesound node into the smsl su1 and powered by mid level high output ( 200 wpc) Class d amp. Was going to order Geshelli, but after seeing so much hype on smsl su1, I cut costs and ordered it. Just to dip my feet in the external DAC pool, so to speak...😊
I needed a desktop DAC because my PC's audio card is defective. I preferred just plugging in an old fashioned stereo-Y RCA cable to a 2.1 system.. but so be it. I have been using my headphone amp, an iFi iDSD signature for a while. However, it's a hassle when I want to listen to headphones. Anyway.. I got the SU-1 to replace the iFi. 1 big positive is that I can now use the Windows volume control; that's helpful during work. I just wonder how much break-in it's going to need. Out of the box, the SU-1 is very sibilant. I wondered if it needs to play for 200 hours or so like most gear to fully settle into its sound. Have you tried running the SU-1 for a long time then gone back and listened again? I'm on the fence about it. It's ok. It's very intense sounding.. not musical to me... very technical. It's a very articulate, detailed presentation for sure. Just too much of it for me. I'm used to a much more finessed presentation. But I've been listening to hifi and comparing it at a fairly large scale for a few decades. I'm kind of out of it now, just need something 'good enough' but I get the bug on occasion. I thought the SU-1 was a giant killer. But I think it's more of a small killer. As in, it's probably better than you'd expect for $70-150. It's not going to best $700+ dac's. Now that I've got that realization out of the way, I just want it to sound less etched/digital and more musical. I'd expect the Geshelli J2 to accomplish this... so I may have to step up to get what I consider adequate organic sound. Mainly I was just wondering if the SU-1 got better with break-in in yours (or anyone's) experience... otherwise, this sound just isn't for me.
HDMI in would make it the WiiM Pro Plus into the WiiM Pro double-plus-good. The flexibility of a very good if not best in class analog output from the Plus is a perfect fit for my use case, so I just ordered the Plus for that reason, even if I might go with an external DAC at some future date. One less box and worst case, you buy an outboard DAC later and still have an output "good enough" for streaming lossy content. I have a big heavy class AB system connected to ELAC UB52s (would have gone UF52 if space permitted) and SVS subs rolling off 24 dB/octave around 65 Hz to handle the rest and a little Fosi Audio BT20A driving a pair of KEF Q150s that I enjoy using to stream Audible, TuneIn, and lossy digital music to because of its convenience. Having a "pretty-good-fi" output for the little class-D amp is arguably useful. If either digital into my receiver's DAC or analog out to the BT20A unexpectedly turn out to be disappointing, I can still get an external DAC for the big system. In this case, the WiiM analog out is still useful for most of my listening hours, which are often at TuneIn or 128K MP3 quailty, not FLAC or better quality. If you add an external DAC at least it's just one, and not two boxen with possible issues swapping cables to share with two systems. So you save a box in many cases but aren't painted into a corner. A word about the little class-D amp. Fosi Audio BT20A sounds surprisingly good, especially from a wired source. No, it doesn't seem to compete clear power-wise with a 160W/channel class AB amp, but the big win here is the same WiiM feeding the "big system" via digital output can also feed the BT20A audio via a DAC that's at least "fairly hi-fi" if not top end. Considering that the WiiM supports TuneIn, Audible, and Spotify, this means ditching Bluetooth SBC streaming, which has to be one of the major performance-limiting factors. That's such a huge improvement that worrying about the DAC at this level is probably silly when we're talking fairly low rate digital perceptual encoding. The receiver's DAC is hopefully very good. If it isn't, then I can still purchase an outboard DAC and still use the second analog output for the convenient small systems I use more than the big one and on a lot less critical content. Still worth the money vs. TWO outboard DACs and the cable swaps or switching or cabling required, so I see it as eliminating one box is providing something useful for the extra $60. So far, I've concluded 1. Fosi Audio BT20A and KEF Q150s are worth considering as a pair that play together well, especially given the BT20's ability to tweak bass and treble. To my ears the Q150s sound best at flat bass and about 10 degrees rotation in boost on treble, where they start to sound more similar to the ELAC UB52 mains. Don't underestimate the value of graphical EQ or even basic tone controls when you're considering an amplifier. I put the ELAC UB52s on the BT20A and ended up leaving both tone controls defeated and was very pleased with its sound via a wired CD player source. The KEFs needed that slight boost to really shine for me, but once that was done, both speakers sounded fantastic to me. They both image and soundstage way above their price and both seem to deliver surprising volume before distorting or falling apart. For $350 the KEFs are great. For $800 the UB52s are even better. But the take away from this is equalizer or tone control might be a feature you want to have in your amplifier(s). 2. If there are significant audible differences between non-crap DACs, I haven't heard them. Yet. Maybe I will with the setup I'm building. Will check back in if I can figure out a way to do a real A/B comparison test where the results would be meaningful. My inner skeptic wonders if there really is an audible difference between well-designed DACs above the low tier, or whether this is sighted listening and expectation bias.
For a Lego aficionado, your DAC/Streamer stacking requires some practice. 😂 Thank you for this great comparison and helpful information. Much appreciated. I'm sure many new purchasers and some existing owners will be able to make more informed decisions with this input. Take care and all the best, Sir.
Thanks Randy! I have been watching your videos a few weeks now. I really enjoy the content! Throwing a hypothetical out there... IF you had a Pioneer SX650, Klipsch RP600m, SVS SB-1000 PRO. Do you think the Geshelli J2 would pair well with this setup? If not what would you recommend?
I have a wiim pro plus and Klipsch The Nines on the way. Would it be best to connect the wiim to the nines digitally to utilize the internal DAC in the nines or use the internal DAC of the wiim pro plus and connect via RCA to the nines?
I just learned as much as I could and built my first pc then I got a Fosi amp and two polk es15 for sound, Now I am trying to learn about the audio side and I want to build a nice Dolby atmos home theater but I am confused as to If my reciever is Atmos compat, if I use a blutooth amp for the rear speakers would it need to be atmos compat too? Great videos.
I appreciate the review but I think the comparison would have been best left to WiiM pro plus dac performance to smsl, as that is a close match. If the pro plus were to seem better than smsl, then I could see a further comparison to a ‘better’ dac. Thanks for the video!
Do you think if you used the balanced out of the J2, the volume difference would have been mitigated? Also am curious about the Sparkos option on the J2 for a future video.
I tried Wiim Mini + SMSL SU-1, it sounded so better. Tried Wiim Ultra , was not as good as the earlier combination. Then tired Wiim Ultra with J2s (4499) Sounded soo good much better. Only drawback was Wiim Ultra has no Airplay2 and Wiim Mini has it but the streamer in it is not so good. Hence I just ordered Wiim Pro Plus that has Airplay 2 and 4493. Let me try how it is going to sound with Airplay 2. Apple music sounds really crisp and deep. I have Kef Q350 and Klipsch RP 600m-II. I Like Klipsch though. This is a never ending chase. Will stop after I open the Wiim Pro plus today. Your reviews are too good. I bought Wiim Amp in the first place to start all this journey and chase. Love music , so it is inevitable. Bought Rega Brio in between for want of good musical sounding of my Vinyl collection. That research is still pending. Again your product reviews are great, hope viewers save some dollars after listening to you. Sorry forgot to add, if Wiim Pro plus does not sound good, then I will use it as streamer with J2 using Airplay2 . There ends my journey.
Really interesting comparisons in here - thank you. My system is all still in my mind at the moment, but there's one comparison I'd love to see, and that's between a good DAC like the Geshelli into traditional type of amp, and the WIIM (or Node) sending its digital signal directly into a fully digital amp, like the Sabaj A30A (or the Peachtree GAN...) Anyway, thanks again for the interesting video.
Thank You for your review, I'm thinking about buying a streamer for my home hi-fi (Pathos Acoustics TT amplifier, Sonus Faber Grand Piano speakers, Audiolab 8200 Cd, this Cd player has the ESS Sabre 32-bit Dac that can be used as external DAC for other units) So my question is: Wiim Pro with Audiolab Cd player DAC, Wiim Pro Plus? Or Bluesound Node? I din't know if the Audiolab 8200 cd internal dac is a good one or not, it is a product fron 2012. I hope you can help me, I'm a beginner about streamers, thank You, Rob.
Hey Cheap Audio Man. How much better would the Wiim Pro Plus be then me using HEOS on my Marantz SR7015. I would be running the WiiM back through my Marantz
The Wiim Pro + SU-1 is my combo in a secondary system and it sounds very nice :). But also the amp is a very important component. I run a Russ Andrews RAVE 1 amp...not much power, but fairly enough for the Rega's RS-1 speakers. But, I think about an update...which one do you recommend: SMSL A300 or AL200? Thanks and keep up the good work, it's a pleasure to watch this channel ;). Cheers from Romania.
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Interesting. Im thinking of getting the (upcoming) Wiim Ultra (as a preamp/streamer) and 2x Fosi V3 monoblock amps. Im guessing that would be a good combination. Will adding a Geschelli J2 DAC give an audible difference (for the better) in SQ or will it be very minimal?
I upgraded my Audioquest Dragonfly Red by painting it with gold paint, and adding a white racing stripe. Sounds fantastic!
Excellent job Randy! I think you are ready to sing "I've been everywhere" (Johnny Cash)! But I digress. I bought the WiiM Pro and Su-1 based on your reviews and am very happy with it. I think that combination offers me more options since I can connect my Teac CD P-650 into the SU-1 so I then can play my Ipod Classic lossless files through the SU-1. I am currently in sonic heaven with the above. Streaming is just so amazing to a 70+ senior audiophile with bad hearing and stiff joints. Thanks again Randy for all the time and effort you put in so I can enjoy a cup of coffee with you while you expound on your passions.
You’re aware that depending on camera angle as you move about that the last two letters on the T-shirts logo disappear?
Not sure I want to visit there
@@CJNooberson Definitely not for everyone, myself included. I just thought ole greybeard might get a chuckle from that.
dac offs! 😂
lol
@@TriAmpMyFi OMG that was hilarious. Thanks for pointing that out.
Loved your visual "stacking symmetry" with the gear!
Hi Randy, It’s my first time commenting here or on you tube, love your shows as it has brought so much enjoyment to my audiophile journey! I just got the new WiiM Pro Plus and after looking at the measurements re: ADC, I fully thought I’d be returning it along with the WiiM Pro I bought a couple of weeks ago. But, this new model excels as a remote controllable preamp. I have it now connected to a record player and the improvements over the Pro are substantial! A-B switching between my straight phono preamp and WiiM Pro Plus is nearly indistinguishable compared to the WiiM Mini’s and Pro’s ADC. Also, there is a “cross fade” switch on the WiiM app that eliminates some clicks and pops. I hope this is helpful for everyone.
I just AB’d my new AKM J2 with sparkos dual op amp with my previous topping e30 mkII, which I really like. Biggest difference was the more recessed soundstage lending to a more natural and less in your face presentation. It give my room an overall deeper feel as well. The J2 is a killer for jazz and vocal performances.
New J2 coming soon with AKM 4499 chip!
Based on your past reviews I've had a J2 on order for a few months. It just arrived this week and I have to agree with you that the Wiim Pro +J2 sounds great. Soundstage is expansive and bass is tight, not muddy like it can get in my room.
is it hifiman re comeback
I love music but usually can't tell one DAC from another. Even so, you have a way of getting me to want to upgrade to your latest favorites (I'm weak). Thanks for another great comparison video.
Just ordered the J2 S. charcoal aluminum case and blue cover to match my emotiva TA1 and A2 amp. Running KEF Q350's with Klipsch sub and a Rega p2 turntable. I've been on the fence between the geshelli dac and a new cartridge for the turntable. Randy I hope my 50 plus year old ears like the DAC, I bought it because your always praising it. Other people really liked it too.
The DAC will easily beat any turntable, but it all comes down to the quality of the source material. The digital media is much more abused by the loudness war today, the vinyl sometimes sounds better because of its limitation and can't be as abused as digital... But with quality mixing / mastering, a good DAC will really shines and leave any turntable in the "dust". 😀
Lolol! Fidgety stacks at the intro 😂👌🏼But seriously, appreciate the time taken in defining the intricacies in some impressive equipment relative to cost. My interest is always peaked with these comparisons, in particular how well the J2 holds up in so many situations.
I own the WiiM Pro and have it streaming via digital coax to my PS Audio GainCell DAC/Pre. But! I heard all of the hype about the SU-1 so I bought one, as you never know... Some of this inexpensive gear can sound incredibly good on the right system. I am using a 1970 vintage Sansui 4000 stereo receiver to power my Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers. The PS Audio unit handles the digital side of things through its analog output to the Sansui AUX in, and is also the preamp as it is true analog on its output, not digital. I am using Mogami 2964 coaxial wire and Eminence RCA interconnects with all of the gear.
Well, being honest here, the DAC in the WiiM Pro actually sounds better on my particular system, vs having the SU-1 in the chain, by a lot. If I did not have the PS Audio in the stream, and went directly to the Sansui via the line out of the WiiM, I could live with the WiiM internal DAC, on my system.
Unfortunately, the SU-1 was rather flat sounding and a bit veiled, none of the sparkle or dynamics were there that the WiiM Pro, and I have a WiiM mini, both produced with the old Sansui 4000 receiver via line out of both WiiM units. I was actually taken aback at the results.
Just to add, I read one review on Amazon that compared the SU-1 to the Pontus II. The reviewer stated it was 80% there on his system. Not hard to believe, depending upon the system. Which brings up my experience with the Denafrips Venus II 12th DAC, which I recently sold... It too sounded like a wet blanket and veiled when paired with the PS Audio and or the Sansui receiver.
So, there is something to that gentleman's review regarding the sound of the SU-1 and Denafrips DACs. If he is getting 80% of the Pontus II out of the SU-1, it would also say to me, that I would get a veiled and wet blanket experience with the SU-1, and that is exactly what I experienced.
I wish I had something else to use the SU-1 with to see its true potential, but I don't, so I sent her back.
Similar experience here. Was really disappointed in the SU-1 (relative to the Schitt Modi 3+ already in my system) - wet blanket is perfect description - and returned the SU-1. (Tried it in another system using the WiiM mini this time, with similar results.) I don't understand the hype about this product. Thanks for corroborating my experience.
@@michaelcastellon5617 And thank you right back, you know how folks get about this stuff.
I really like my J2. Probably one my best purchases in a long time. Great review, another kickass Tshirt as well!
Thanks! The J2 which chip did you have in your device?😊
Geshelli will have a new J2 featuring the AKM 4499 DAC chip released soon. I was told end of August. We are there and I am waiting for my notification to order.
I have an Ares II, and have tried all 3 different firmware updates. They all sound different, but it's hard to say one is really better than the others. I also have an SU-1, and can honestly say I enjoy music from it just as much as the Ares. Never tried the J2, but suspect it's along the same lines. Products like the FOZ SSX can give you more soundstage and separation, but at the cost of sounding less natural. Whether it's more clinical or warm, wide separation or more intimate, it's all personal preference. It really does come down to the speakers and room. I'd love to see this test done blind with a few volunteers and hear their opinions.
Are you exaggerating? I'm waiting for my SU-1 too, but comparing 80 dollar DAC to a 800-ish dollar DAC, somehow... unbelievable.
I just hooked up the SU1 to my Bluesound node and it significantly better - although as Randy pointed out, the bass is bit much. That said, I also have REL hooked up and toned it down. Happy now.
@@Mullster yeah, it's a solid dac. Excellent value, and would probably score very high in a blind test with much more expensive devices.
Where do you live would love to be a part of that testing. We need to get to the bottom of this dac debate, I believe the differences these reviews talk about is insignificant a lot of the time.
@@nddung92not unbelievable, blind tested and level matched it will become apparent, it's practically impossible to tell differences between dacs.
Great video! I've just bought the wiim pro plus, I used to listen to my music via Bluetooth...my ears got a sonic shock 😂 that's impressive. I'm listening to more music now, I'm rediscovering my playlist.
Excellent video, Randy...Wiim make one heck of a product. Thanks for all the time you must have had to dedicate for this multi- comparison review. GRRReat!! all the best to you & your family, as always. Cheers from Japan.
SMSL is definitely crushing it. It has better sonic measurements than Geshelli DAC and beats it in ranking. I'm going to order my first DAC today! Thank you CAM!
Thanks for the breakdown Randy. I kind of figured it would work out just as you posted. Rock on mate!!
Great review Randy. Outstanding info here. Happy for the bonus comparo to the Node. Pro plus appears to be a solid product especially at its price point. Thank you !
I love these head to head to head to head competitions...
That's a lot of head in one video dude
I'm contemplating a purchase of the Geshelli Labs J2S, with the Sparkos Op Amp. Since this comparison was about just the J2, the Sparkos OpAmp wasn't involved. So, I wonder how it would have ended up with the J2s (with Sparkos OpAmp) in the comparison.
If the Sparkos does for the Geshelli what it did for my Aune x8, the difference can be significant.
@nc3419 What made you consider the Aune X8 over the Geshelli Labs J2S. Just curious.
@@TheDarius1968 I have a Topping D70s hooked up to a Keces E40 which I had used for a couple of years which I both found thru Soundnews review . I bought another E40 for desktop (small like a Rega Brio) so looked at other dacs as options.
iWii reviewed the Aune with a Sparkos upgrade and claimed it upped the ante in SQ, which it did and it was around the time of the holidays when both Aune and Sparkos were on sale. So, for about the price of the Geshelli which I also considered I gave it a shot.
Not that it matters, but another person in a response stated he preferred his Aune over the Geshelli (he had both) so I bet they are on a similar level but do not know if any upgrades were mentioned.
I like the Aune with the upgrade, for me it matches the SQ of the d70s and seems to be a bit better with voice and perhaps presence, not much but noticeable for me. One uses AKM and the other an ESS Without the Sparkos it didn't impress me as it sounded typical of a $200 to $300 dac. A sparkos opamp may do similar for the Geshelli for all I know.
On higher end equipment, do not know when either would become a bottle neck but they are good dacs for my uses. Lots of choices today.
Me too and very interested in the J2 w/ Sparkos and how it compares in the mix. J2 vs J2-Sparkos would be a good comparison review.
I think the sparkos helped. It added some vibrancy that took the j2 up a notch.
The car analogy is great😂😂 love ur content, Randy!
Man, that sounds like a lot of work. I ran a similar test yesterday with Audrivana Studio connected via USB to an iFi Zen Signature and also connected via UPNP to a Wiim Mini. The Mini was connected to the optical input on the Paradigm Link room correction module and the Zen was connected via the Link's analog input. The sound was much closer than I would have thought. For the most part, it was indistinguishable. If all you're doing is streaming music, the Mini is the more cost-effective choice.
WOW..... That was a LOT of information but you clearly and simply shared it here. Well done Randy!
It would also be nice if the wiim could have a usb out like the bluesound node. A lot of cheaper dacs sound better with its usb input, due to better filtering section. Also wiim has promised peq availability. Now that would be something! (hdmi would be nice, but the optical input sort of makes up for it)
Although this is another great video, it still falls short of evaluating streamers. Every streamer review I have seen previously compares them using their internal DACs. In this video, Randy is comparing the internal DACs vs external. I would like to see a review comparing streamers, all using the same external DAC. Many of us already use an external DAC so, aside from differences in the UI or inputs/outputs, is there a sound quality difference between various streamers when using the same external DAC? Can you do one of those Randy?
Are we ever going to get a blind test with these products? It would go a long way with credibility and transparency.
He'll need help setting up a single or double blind test, which I thought is not that helpful in the context of what this channel is for. Ab testing is somewhat discredited as it mostly picked up the difference between a and b and not long term musical satisfaction. That's why "boom and tizz" speakers sell better at Best buy. I think the food industry still do ab tests religiously because they score points in meeting rooms. That's why mikey D's and supermarket food taste the way they do. Maybe USA is a foodie nirvana, maybe not.
You’re watching the wrong videos if you’re looking for credibility and transparency. Professional reviewers are full of it. Look for folks who buy the gear they review.
Geshelli went back paying the Randy? ;-)
@@RoguesNtheHouse I'm curious, if you think he's "full of it", why are you here? Really, can you answer this question?
Yes there is too much bias here, plus the man is a advertisement board and being paid.
Randy, try to snag an expensive streamer and use an external DAC and do A/B's with a Wiim to start to get a handle on how much the streaming functions effect sound. Or don't because it's sure to be, as we used to say, a huge can of worms. Maybe the last component to consider for your system, after hi zoot cables and wires, so not worth consideration on moderately priced systems. I dunno. Does anybody?
I upgraded from a crappy karaoke amp to the yamaha as 301 (105€ used) with the SMSL Su1 (67,99 new) first i tried the ymaha on my pc withoout the dac then with the dac it makes quite a difference worth it.
One the Geshelli website there are three different DAC Chipsets for the J2 ( ES9026PRO / ES9038Q2M / AK4493).
Which one do you use? Do you know anything about the differences between these?
Thanks!
I have the Wiim Pro and Geshelli J2 AKM. It sounds really good but my Orchard Audio Pecan Pi streamer with dual Burr Brown chips is head and shoulders better in my system.
So why not just get the WiiM Mini and the J2 DAC? To me the Wiim Pro seems redundant.
The pro has Chromecast and more connections if that’s important to you. I’m very happy with a mini and an external DAC, but Chromecast support is a really nice feature.
Coaxial output of the Pro is the reason to purchase. I own both the Pro and mini, the digital coax out on the Pro makes a world of difference in SQ.
@@kraig7777 Yep, you get the higher resolutions through the coaxial connection vs the optical. Just a cleaner more dynamic sound, at least on my system. I own both the mini and the pro.
I have both. I can change the volume with my phone volume buttons with the pro+ but not using the optical outputs on the mini
Thanks Randy! I just got my WiiM Pro and SU-1 last month and was a curious how they compared. You really cleared that up for me.
So who is better?
SO im really liking the SU1 that i got for my dedicated stereo setup. I’ve compared to the internal Node DAC and the Arylic S50 Pro DAC as well. Sound stage is wider and the overall is sounds airy. Bass in the higher side, and a tad bit flabby I thought. Toned it down on the REL, and smidge lower bass via tone control and all is well.
Now i was explore adding this to my Marantz receiver. BUTT it has no optical out. I guess can just buy a streamer and a RCA switch. Ideas/thoughts on this welcome
Thx Randy love to watch your reviews !!!!
When TV drop fibre optical output then HDMI is going to be needed. For stereo I doubt that there would be a noticeable difference. Wiim Pro with a pair of Adam Audio T5V, T7V or T8V (bass down to 33Hz) active speakers, and if budget is tight up grade to external DAC later, makes for a neat set up. If more inputs are needed get a switch box.
I like the sound profile of my Wiim pro better than my Geshelli labs dac with the AKM4493 velvet sound. That said the Gesheli lab dac is so much cleaner. So I just EQ it up with the Schitt audio EQ. The Wiim 10 band EQ does not seem strong enough when feeding the external dac, but great with the internal dac.
We look forward to the Wiim Pro Plus MKII with arc hdmi input... 😉
I'm curious how the J2 AKM sounds compared to the Ares 2.
I have the same question....
I'm using the Schiit Modi and the WiiM Pro. I have two (2) SMSL SU 1's connected to my (2) Bluesound Nodes. Good review, Randy.
which combo sounds better?
It would be interesting to see if the sound of the Wiim Pro + could be improved by using its internal 10-band EQ to tame its base response to something more neutral sounding. It might improve soundstage and imaging too. I know that sounds a bit crazy, but I have found with my own system that if I EQ it to a generally flatter frequency response, the sound stage broadens considerably and imaging is much better. I think frequency response bumps and dips somehow mess with perceived instrument placement. It might be a cheap way to get a little closer to the Wiim/J2 combo sound.
The EQ in the WiiM streamers is simply incredible for fixing the SQ of the stream. When listening to a raw stream with no EQ in the chain, at least in my setup, it totally sucks. That EQ had me cancelling my order for the Eversolo streamer. The WiiM is simply a game changer in regards to its internal OS. I have an $800 Mercury v2 here, and quite frankly, the WiiM Mini and Pro, both walk all over it in my current system.
@@michaelwright1602
So there's,
Wiim EQ, fix the SQ, with OS better than V2.
Got it. 😁
@@michaelwright1602 Thanks for sharing.
Not sure if your using an external dac.
but could you hear much of a difference between
the mini and the pro ?
Thanks
@@deadline7610I did, but is more due to the connection, digital coax vs optical, there is more detail, and just overall better sound via digital coax. And yes, I use a PS Audio DAC, but have used both the Mini and the Pro with direct connections. Don't get me wrong, they both sound good, the Pro just has that little extra spice to it. And, it will depend too on how you listen. If it is just to listen, not getting critical, just enjoying the music, either works fine. Critical listening, and you want to dig as much out of the music at this budget, then the Pro would be the way to go.
@@michaelwright1602 Thanks.
Sometimes it's just the little things like a coax cable.
I just picked up an ifi power 2 and I noticed an immediate uptick in fidelity in the mini.
I bought the Bluesound Node X a couple of months ago and I can't say I have been very impressed with the sound. I bought it to connect to my Shure SRH1840 and the sound wasn't nice. I connected it to my Beyerdynamic COP and it did sound better, mainly because it has more bass and isn't as detailed. But in the end I went back to my Topping DXPro 3 for my headphones and the Node X is connected to my Roksan K2 integrated amp, which has a really good inbuilt sounding dac
Now what would happen is you'd supplement the Wiim Pro Plus again with an SMSL SU1 for instance? Would this just be a redundant or would this again take the quaility up?
Pro+ does have a higher sampling rate and better clock
I love your reviews, the new wiim pro plus is the streamer I'm finally going to buy. Thanks! FYI, Your recent videos have had very quiet audio levels According to RUclips stats you are almost 14db too quiet. You could easily up the video volume by 8-9db and still have no clipping.
I recently tried the SMSL SU1 and I got 2 defective units. 1 played intermittently and the replacement just refused to work. I tested with different inputs - Wiim Mini, Wiim pro plus and a computer via SPDIF from soundcard with the same results. Sent them back and ordered a J2
Some of us remain skeptical of listening comparisons that are not done blind. As an Audio HiFi enthusiast, I know enough about how DACs work and feel strongly enough about the stories behind them that I do not trust my lizard brain to make valid sighted judgement. Since using multiple Wiims as sources allows for easy instantaneous switching, I think this would be a perfect opportunity for some trusted RUclips audiophile to blind test Wiim, Pro, Pro+, Pro+ or w/DAC and provide objective as to how big the perceived differences really are.
You're also assuming that external DAC differences will all be 'flushed out' using a $200 streamer. Unlikely. Over SPDIF, you're feeding that DAC using a cheap clock inside the Wiim and not doing much to filter digital noise.
I'm not saying the Wiim sounds bad, nor does a Node, but if that's all you use to AB a DAC, blind or otherwise, you're begging the question of whether an improved streamer, or a reclocker from a cheap one like the Node with USB out, will net more than climbing the DAC ladder.
@thestocktrader6544 you can get good sound without overthinking it. There is a lot of gear, no doubt. You also get what you pay for. Randy does a good job showing you that you can get great sound on a budget, but there is a reason that million dollar systems exist. There are no $500 speakers that beat the $30k versions. It's just not reality.
Instead of some technical response to your questions, why not visit a dealer, or ring one on the phone? Tell them your use case and your goals, and they will happily advise you on a system, or a ecosystem if you're trying to do whole house or multi-room audio from multiple systems.
And if you consult a dealer, hopefully you purchase from them and support them!
@@erics.4113 my dac could care less about the streamer clock, those days are gone. The wiim is bit perfect ! Where is all this digital noise ? How come it didn't show up on ASR measurements.
@thestocktrader6544 the problem is that audiophiles listen to the nonsense, and always believe there is something wrong. One of the best is the Hans bloke on RUclips, he actually believes that upgrading the power supply on a router and buying a network switch with a fancy power supply will improve digital transmission.
@@r423fplip if you have a dealer in range that has high end systems and streamers, ask to bring your Wiim in, because you're not convinced you need a high dollar streamer. Run the experiment yourself!
Wow that was insightful. I use a Wiim Pro with a Soekris 1021 R2R DAC. Planning to get the J2. What are your thoughts?
Good DAC battle would be Schiit Bifrost 2/64 vs Geshelli JNOG2 SOCKETED [J2S] with AK4493 Chip and Sparkos Opamps
Thanks!
You bet!
Nice one Randy! Great motor car metaphor and fully understood.
Su 1 is 80usd? J2 300? Is there a 220usd difference?
I have two WiiM hockey puck streamers are bulletproof. I have one system with the SU-1 and the other with the Schiit Modi 3. I don't need anything else until something dies.
Perhaps a dumb question, but I have a mini and been using its internal dac (line out). Would the smsl be a definite upgrade for me? Will be connecting to a fosi v3 with jamo s803.
What Chip set did you preferer on the J2 they have 4 options?
Fascinating video! Thank You!
So the wiim mini and a smsu 1 is the best budget option. Would of loved to see the sound comparison between the mini and the external dac and the pro and external DAC
The mini's the same isn't it - different connections, same engine?
I’ve owned both Mini and Pro which are different machines. Not the same engine.
@@bradburnside7644 it's why I like to have a comparison of the wiim mini with external DAC and the wiim pro /plus
As long as the DAC is receiving the same exact file over the same exact connection, I don't see how it should matter where the file is coming from.
@@spamcan9208
Exactly.
Both offer an independently verified Bit perfect S/PDIF output.
The Audio Science Review community (the bane of audiophools) has tested both the existing Mini and Pro models and found they perform pretty much the same when using the digital output AND - for those who think the Pro offers better one box performance - when using the analogue output of the internal DAC.
So unless you require the extra features of the Pro, you're better off buying the Mini.
The new Pro+ is the mystery box as far as the internal DAC goes, but it's going to be no different to the existing boxes as far as the digital output goes.
Thanks for the great and informative video! I have two questions.
Let’s say I’m getting the WiiM Pro Plus. What I will lose not having an HDMI eARC like on the Bluesound Node?
And another one. Let’s say that I’m getting only an external DAC like the SU-1 or Geshelli Labs J2 hooked up to directly to my smart TV via optical output. Will I miss a lot of sound quality compared to a streamer like WiiM Pro Plus?
Thanks for this connected series of reviews of the new WiiM streamer.
I connected my Wiim Pro to a Topping E50 DAC …and it’s damn nice!
Keep up the fight!
☕️🍕🔥🥓👍
Dig your reviews and a new subscriber..... I REALLY like the Geshelli J2 DAC and am on the fence but is it overkill to plug it into a vintage setup with a streaming DAC? I have a Pioneer sx626 pushing Cerwin Vega VS120's and it sounds pretty bitchin as it is.... I can't imagine it having any more warmth, focus or imaging but I could be wrong, will I notice the difference? Need to add streaming and don't particularly want to do a basic BT module, leaning heavily toward the Wiim Pro as at least I'll get an RCA out.... what's the best way to connect to my vintage Pioneer receiver for the best sound quality? Was checking out the Ayima t9 Pro but for around the same price the Wiim Pro seems like the one to get, thoughts?
For me nothing beats a $40 dell Wyse running Daphile (with the material skin) to an external DAC. you should do a video about it.
Thanks for a lot of great info, Randy! I find your videos to be helpful and good advice. Thank you. Subscribing. :)
A lot depends on how revealing/resolving the amp+speakers are. If you have $10,000 speakers/amp, going from a $200 DAC to a $2000 DAC is going to make a HUGE difference. But in a $1000 speaker/amp pair, it will make little difference to upgrade the DAC.
Hey Randy, I was using the Wiim mini with a Modius from Schiit. I recently bought an Eversolo DAC-Z6 and a Wiim Pro. I like that combination's sound; However, I am still within my 30-day return period. My question to you is, should I return the DAC-Z6 and Wiim Pro and upgrade to the DAC-Z8 and use it with the Wiim mini, or should I spend a bit more and get the Eversolo DMP-A6?
DMP-A6 so you have only one device and the sound i would expect to sit between Z6 and Z8. On the Wiim Pro the coax sounds noticable better compaired to the optical out, so i would guess the mini sounds pretty much the same as Pro on optical. I would just get the DMP-A6, or i would keep the Wiim Pro, use it with COAX and upgrade the dac when the time comes. What speakers and amp do you have?
Thank you for the reply. Currently, I'm using KEF Q150s with a Klipsch 10-inch Subwoofer. An Ayima A07 with an upgraded 48v power supply. I have my smart TV connected to the Z6 over Optical for movies and my computer connected over USB, running Audirovana as a media player. I haven't tried the coax out on the Pro. I will give that a try tonight and see how it sounds. I also have a Cambridge AXA35, but I only use that with my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO turntable to play records. As 90% of my listening is streaming from Spotify, Tidal, and Amazon music, I want the best sound for that option. I don't mind upgrading to the Z8 if the sound is noticeably better than the Z6. Also, since I'm up in that price bracket, would it be better to spend a bit more and get a Denafrips ARES II or something from SMSL? My budget right now is about 1k, so anything in that price range is an option. @@ionescugeorge2003
@@RetroResurrectionAI Upgrade those speakers, they are as entry level as it gets. Don't even sweat on it, even a Z6 is way overkill for them.
Did you realize that the content is being resampled to 48/16 when WiiMs are linked? With not the best quality WiiM resampler?
I have had the Wiim mini for a while. I just bought the SMSL SU-1 and am waiting for time to try the combo out.
Did it make a big difference with the SU-1? I'm using Wiim mini dac and wondering if there is a noticeable difference with getting the SU-1
@@Sallo4 I feel that there is, but sound is so subjective.
If using external DAC, does Wiim Pro+ sound any better than Wiim Pro or even Wiim Mini?
Passion for Sound just posted this exact comparison about a week or so ago. Take a look.
This was very insightful!! Quick question.. I purchased an Onkyo TX-RZ50 and modded it. It has a built-in streamer. I am leaning towards the Ge shelling labs J2 dac. I wanted to know if it's better to buy the Wiim pro plus or keep the Onkyo receiver that streams and connect it to the Shelli J2?
I still don’t understand if I should get the pro Plus over the pro if I already have a good external dac. I don’t have a streamer and I don’t want to spend money in features that I won’t use (internal dac).
I just purchased the wiim pro and the wiim pro plus and connected them to the same amp via a mixer. I streamed the same song from amazon music and I did not hear any difference in the quality of sound. they both sound good. I'm I supposed to hear any difference between them?
In theory, yes. I ran them both into a preamp and definitely heard a difference. Maybe running them through a mixer “leveled” the playing field. Either way I guess you know that if you’re running it through a mixer then you don’t need the pro plus
E arc and an input and output selector knob on front of unit. I hate having to dig into 2 different menus in Wiim app to change output and input. Auto detect has not worked for me.
Thank you for your great review! now I have a Wiim Pro and directly optical out to Audiolab 9000A, Do you think it would be a bigger upgrade to add Geshelli J2?
Randy thank you for all of the quality content. Based on your suggestion I purchased a Geshelli J2 (pallet wood case!). I current stream amazon music via firetv 4k max through my TV optical to the J2 (then to either a McIntosh MA5100 or a Yaqin MC-13S to original Heresy 1's) . I am using almost 100% amazon music - is there any sonic benefit to adding the WIIM Pro vs from the firetv 4k??
Please tell us how you powered these devices. My experience with WiiM Pro and SU1 is that cleaner and more dynamic power delivers better sound.
Randy are you using Geshelli with akm chip? If it's same chip as Smsl su1, is it just a different implementation that's giving the Geshelli the more organic sound?
I'm using a bluesound node into the smsl su1 and powered by mid level high output ( 200 wpc) Class d amp. Was going to order Geshelli, but after seeing so much hype on smsl su1, I cut costs and ordered it. Just to dip my feet in the external DAC pool, so to speak...😊
I needed a desktop DAC because my PC's audio card is defective. I preferred just plugging in an old fashioned stereo-Y RCA cable to a 2.1 system.. but so be it. I have been using my headphone amp, an iFi iDSD signature for a while. However, it's a hassle when I want to listen to headphones. Anyway..
I got the SU-1 to replace the iFi. 1 big positive is that I can now use the Windows volume control; that's helpful during work.
I just wonder how much break-in it's going to need.
Out of the box, the SU-1 is very sibilant. I wondered if it needs to play for 200 hours or so like most gear to fully settle into its sound. Have you tried running the SU-1 for a long time then gone back and listened again?
I'm on the fence about it. It's ok. It's very intense sounding.. not musical to me... very technical. It's a very articulate, detailed presentation for sure. Just too much of it for me. I'm used to a much more finessed presentation. But I've been listening to hifi and comparing it at a fairly large scale for a few decades. I'm kind of out of it now, just need something 'good enough' but I get the bug on occasion. I thought the SU-1 was a giant killer. But I think it's more of a small killer. As in, it's probably better than you'd expect for $70-150. It's not going to best $700+ dac's. Now that I've got that realization out of the way, I just want it to sound less etched/digital and more musical. I'd expect the Geshelli J2 to accomplish this... so I may have to step up to get what I consider adequate organic sound.
Mainly I was just wondering if the SU-1 got better with break-in in yours (or anyone's) experience... otherwise, this sound just isn't for me.
Exactly what I wanted to see. Even if i won't like result (didn't see whole video yet) it's LIKE no doubts 🤘
HDMI in would make it the WiiM Pro Plus into the WiiM Pro double-plus-good.
The flexibility of a very good if not best in class analog output from the Plus is a perfect fit for my use case, so I just ordered the Plus for that reason, even if I might go with an external DAC at some future date. One less box and worst case, you buy an outboard DAC later and still have an output "good enough" for streaming lossy content.
I have a big heavy class AB system connected to ELAC UB52s (would have gone UF52 if space permitted) and SVS subs rolling off 24 dB/octave around 65 Hz to handle the rest and a little Fosi Audio BT20A driving a pair of KEF Q150s that I enjoy using to stream Audible, TuneIn, and lossy digital music to because of its convenience.
Having a "pretty-good-fi" output for the little class-D amp is arguably useful. If either digital into my receiver's DAC or analog out to the BT20A unexpectedly turn out to be disappointing, I can still get an external DAC for the big system. In this case, the WiiM analog out is still useful for most of my listening hours, which are often at TuneIn or 128K MP3 quailty, not FLAC or better quality. If you add an external DAC at least it's just one, and not two boxen with possible issues swapping cables to share with two systems. So you save a box in many cases but aren't painted into a corner.
A word about the little class-D amp. Fosi Audio BT20A sounds surprisingly good, especially from a wired source. No, it doesn't seem to compete clear power-wise with a 160W/channel class AB amp, but the big win here is the same WiiM feeding the "big system" via digital output can also feed the BT20A audio via a DAC that's at least "fairly hi-fi" if not top end. Considering that the WiiM supports TuneIn, Audible, and Spotify, this means ditching Bluetooth SBC streaming, which has to be one of the major performance-limiting factors. That's such a huge improvement that worrying about the DAC at this level is probably silly when we're talking fairly low rate digital perceptual encoding. The receiver's DAC is hopefully very good.
If it isn't, then I can still purchase an outboard DAC and still use the second analog output for the convenient small systems I use more than the big one and on a lot less critical content. Still worth the money vs. TWO outboard DACs and the cable swaps or switching or cabling required, so I see it as eliminating one box is providing something useful for the extra $60.
So far, I've concluded
1. Fosi Audio BT20A and KEF Q150s are worth considering as a pair that play together well, especially given the BT20's ability to tweak bass and treble. To my ears the Q150s sound best at flat bass and about 10 degrees rotation in boost on treble, where they start to sound more similar to the ELAC UB52 mains. Don't underestimate the value of graphical EQ or even basic tone controls when you're considering an amplifier. I put the ELAC UB52s on the BT20A and ended up leaving both tone controls defeated and was very pleased with its sound via a wired CD player source. The KEFs needed that slight boost to really shine for me, but once that was done, both speakers sounded fantastic to me. They both image and soundstage way above their price and both seem to deliver surprising volume before distorting or falling apart. For $350 the KEFs are great. For $800 the UB52s are even better.
But the take away from this is equalizer or tone control might be a feature you want to have in your amplifier(s).
2. If there are significant audible differences between non-crap DACs, I haven't heard them. Yet. Maybe I will with the setup I'm building. Will check back in if I can figure out a way to do a real A/B comparison test where the results would be meaningful. My inner skeptic wonders if there really is an audible difference between well-designed DACs above the low tier, or whether this is sighted listening and expectation bias.
For a Lego aficionado, your DAC/Streamer stacking requires some practice. 😂 Thank you for this great comparison and helpful information. Much appreciated. I'm sure many new purchasers and some existing owners will be able to make more informed decisions with this input. Take care and all the best, Sir.
Thanks Randy! I have been watching your videos a few weeks now. I really enjoy the content!
Throwing a hypothetical out there... IF you had a Pioneer SX650, Klipsch RP600m, SVS SB-1000 PRO. Do you think the Geshelli J2 would pair well with this setup? If not what would you recommend?
I noticed the same on the SU1. The sub bass is better compared to my topping E30ii dac. Buy the pro and add a better dac such as the SU1.
Great comparison, will love to see a comparing with schiit mobi 3+ as external dac?
I have a wiim pro plus and Klipsch The Nines on the way. Would it be best to connect the wiim to the nines digitally to utilize the internal DAC in the nines or use the internal DAC of the wiim pro plus and connect via RCA to the nines?
I have the PS Audio Digital Link, do u think the J2 will make a huge improvement?
I just learned as much as I could and built my first pc then I got a Fosi amp and two polk es15 for sound, Now I am trying to learn about the audio side and I want to build a nice Dolby atmos home theater but I am confused as to If my reciever is Atmos compat, if I use a blutooth amp for the rear speakers would it need to be atmos compat too? Great videos.
I appreciate the review but I think the comparison would have been best left to WiiM pro plus dac performance to smsl, as that is a close match. If the pro plus were to seem better than smsl, then I could see a further comparison to a ‘better’ dac. Thanks for the video!
Or was the point of this video to just go rah rah Geshelli one more time.
What is the max resolution bandwidth for optical/coax connection between DACs and wiim pro / wiim pro plus
I hate to use the wiim as a preamp because it doesn't have a second pre-out or a sub out for a subwoofer
@Click-here_to-Massage----- Are you a freakin massage therapist?
9 out of 10 people could not differentiate between DACs, maybe 99 out of 100. Only the golden ears on RUclips.
can i hook this up to the klipsch five and still hook the fives up the the tv via the hdmi arc and still take full advantage of the wiim?
Do you think if you used the balanced out of the J2, the volume difference would have been mitigated? Also am curious about the Sparkos option on the J2 for a future video.
No, because for whatever reason Geshelli Labs made both the XLR and RCA out 2.5 Volts instead of the industry standard 4 volts for XLR.
What do you think about compare pro plus and power bank + dac like for example denafrise ares vs expensive streamer
Would a digital coax be better than toslink to connect the wiim pro to the dac?
I tried Wiim Mini + SMSL SU-1, it sounded so better. Tried Wiim Ultra , was not as good as the earlier combination. Then tired Wiim Ultra with J2s (4499) Sounded soo good much better. Only drawback was Wiim Ultra has no Airplay2 and Wiim Mini has it but the streamer in it is not so good. Hence I just ordered Wiim Pro Plus that has Airplay 2 and 4493. Let me try how it is going to sound with Airplay 2. Apple music sounds really crisp and deep. I have Kef Q350 and Klipsch RP 600m-II. I Like Klipsch though. This is a never ending chase. Will stop after I open the Wiim Pro plus today. Your reviews are too good. I bought Wiim Amp in the first place to start all this journey and chase. Love music , so it is inevitable. Bought Rega Brio in between for want of good musical sounding of my Vinyl collection. That research is still pending. Again your product reviews are great, hope viewers save some dollars after listening to you. Sorry forgot to add, if Wiim Pro plus does not sound good, then I will use it as streamer with J2 using Airplay2 . There ends my journey.
How is the Wiim Mini internal dac vs using the Wiim Mini + the SMSL SU-1?
Really interesting comparisons in here - thank you. My system is all still in my mind at the moment, but there's one comparison I'd love to see, and that's between a good DAC like the Geshelli into traditional type of amp, and the WIIM (or Node) sending its digital signal directly into a fully digital amp, like the Sabaj A30A (or the Peachtree GAN...) Anyway, thanks again for the interesting video.
Thank You for your review, I'm thinking about buying a streamer for my home hi-fi (Pathos Acoustics TT amplifier, Sonus Faber Grand Piano speakers, Audiolab 8200 Cd, this Cd player has the ESS Sabre 32-bit Dac that can be used as external DAC for other units) So my question is: Wiim Pro with Audiolab Cd player DAC, Wiim Pro Plus? Or Bluesound Node? I din't know if the Audiolab 8200 cd internal dac is a good one or not, it is a product fron 2012. I hope you can help me, I'm a beginner about streamers, thank You, Rob.
Hey Cheap Audio Man. How much better would the Wiim Pro Plus be then me using HEOS on my Marantz SR7015. I would be running the WiiM back through my Marantz
The Wiim Pro + SU-1 is my combo in a secondary system and it sounds very nice :). But also the amp is a very important component. I run a Russ Andrews RAVE 1 amp...not much power, but fairly enough for the Rega's RS-1 speakers. But, I think about an update...which one do you recommend: SMSL A300 or AL200? Thanks and keep up the good work, it's a pleasure to watch this channel ;). Cheers from Romania.
Great review , what would you prefer in terms of audio quality? Pro plus + j2 or eversolo dmp 6?