Many brands are aware that most don't care too much about spec,so just reveal whatever reads best in their brochures .As Floyd Toole pointed out,there's more information on the side of a tyre than on a speaker spec sheet and are often economical with the. truth.
BAM.... My point EXACTLY... who has more integrity ?? What company/person would you trust in business more ?? The fluffer or the one that under rates ? It tells you a lot about whom you are dealing with..
You hit the nail on the head with the pro audio reference. Impossible with flea wattage. Not cheap. Not great efficiency. Deficits are covered with power. Bass frequencies use amperage. Why my wife bought Yamaha NS-5000 for our 500 watt Ice Modules.
My Rig plays -3DB at 12Hz. Anyone that claims that there’s no content in the 20Hz area is not experienced. Super low frequencies help to give the illusion of the sounds in concert hall and large room noises. Also low bass frequencies have harmonics below the fundamental. Adjusting 20Hz, 25hz, 31.5 hz with EQ all contribute significantly to bass instrument tonality. Reproduction of those frequencies are required in order for a stereo system to give “true to life” playback. 😊
@@OCDHIFiGuy I’ve got an actual measurement that shows 12Hz to 20KHz +~ 3 DB taken from the listening position, but RUclips doesn’t allow me to post any photos here. I’ll send the proof to your phone.
I have McIntosh XR200 and Dirac with Earthworks M30 mic measures +3db@20Hz in 20x30 room. My previous speakers McIntosh LS360s also measured up at 20Hz in room. Those speakers with California Audio Labs MCA2500 could hit 120db but not sure what 20Hz level was.
My favorite is 'in room response' where they can add room gain to claim that they go down lower. Maybe you can comment on active speaker measurements, do you find that they are more usable since active EQ can be used to widen and flatten the response?
Something that is missed completely in speaker measurements is what sound is actually coming out? e.g. a small driver speaker used as a woofer when pushed hard will "double". it will produce sound pressure, but some will be at the 2nd harmonic of the fundamental sent to it. So you put in a 20hz signal and use a mic to measure the SPL. The total energy the mic detects might be at say 3db down from say 1kHz. But not all that sound pressure is just 20hz. Some is 40hz, ... but all you know is the total SPL, not what all is in it. Or ports, which provide an output that is out of time because of the internal delay path of the sound. But to that mic, it is signal and will be included in the overall measurements. IOW just because there is some sound pressure measured at a specific frequency does not mean that speaker goes that low with any accuracy. Just that it makes noise at a certain SPL when that frequency is input.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Random neuron firings! My family is less appreciative of them. 🙂 I was at the press release announcement for the first DBX auto-room EQ (DBX 20/20?). I was a DBX Rep at the time. Pink noise generator with calibrated mic. Would do a narrow band sweep internally to adjust the bands. I suggested that if the speaker was having problems at 30hz it would double and create 60hz signals. So this thing would boost 30hz because it is low, causing even more doubling, and drop the 60hz because of the added energy from the 30hz doubling. I was literally escorted out of the room.
In my limited experience a big room (and a good amp) allows a speaker to better reveal the low frequency performance it has. I don’t know what the sweet spot is but I know its not 13x14 feet unless you really like 40hz. My goal is to experience a measurably flat room and then see if this is actually desireable or not.
You bet Bruce ! I did mean that -3dB is half as loud. Do you know otherwise ? Total output is system dependent, and I was keeping this vid about published speaker specs and how they can be useless sometimes.
I think that 3db is half as much power, 10db is half as loud. That's what I have always seen quoted. 3db down is noticeably quieter but more than half as loud.
@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks, Mikey. My understanding is that -3 dB is a noticeable change in loudness but not 50% and that -10 would be perceived as half as loud. As Dave, below, indicates perception of loudness is logarithmically related to actual power. But, I may be wrong or am getting tripped up on semantics. In all events, Mikey and Dave, thanks for great stuff!
This is not different in most industries, new Corvette stats on the website, 495 HP, 8 speed transmission, 0-60 in X, and that's about it. Manufactures save the dyno and details for third party reviewers, an entirely separate industry that lives in the same ecosystem.
Yep, that's where they find out its not anywhere near spec at the rear wheels. So yes, thanks for cementing my point that Manufacturers, many times only care about specsmanship, fluff, and marketing. Thumbs DOWN...
Stereophile full reviews have detailed measurements from John Atkinson - folks may find those articles a helpful reference, if the relevant speaker has been reviewed (not a comment on editorial content, simply that they publish detailed measurements beyond what any manufacturer shares)
@@OCDHIFiGuy ha! Some, not so much perhaps…learning how to read impedance & impedence phase (and other measurements) interesting in understanding, broadly, amplifier matching and the engineering underlying some of what we hear (obviously listening is what ultimately matters). Also, once one knows what a real set of measurements looks like, then one knows what a maker is NOT telling you in their marketing. Re: makers, Klipsch somewhat notorious for overstating speaker sensitivity by 4-5 dB (they must be applying some “room gain” in what they publish), but it’s Klipsch so we love them anyway. Fun post, thanks again
the 32 foot stop on an organ goes down to about 16.5hz, and gives a wonderful throb in a large building - described by a local organist as 'an expensive draft'. chasing after that in your living room is a waste of time imo!
vivid audio tells you speaks to +-2DB and +-6 DB My 2 way YG acoustics speaker had a spec that said "usable bass down to 30 htz!!!" It was more like 45
Very interesting! A great pop song for testing "low frequency reproduction for the common man" is "Billy Jean" where the bass line running in the background can be heard only faintly on most speakers I have tested. You once talked about having visited a studio where they have state of the art equipment which can deliver (recorded) music at crazy db levels - this is most likely as good as it gets bass wise... unlike you, most people(me included) will never have the chance to experience the difference between this and their (supposedly) "world class" hifi set.
+/-3db is referring to power. +/-10db is loudness/volume I understand your point, but in the interest of accuracy, wanted to set the record straight. +/-3db is often used as 3db is the difference in volume that average people can readily detect. +/-1.5db is a better measure to use for “audiophiles”.
Dear Mr.P, you are basically right but how many people(and i,of course) do you think would understand exactly what all these full specs mean and how they affect our ears and our room if the speaker companies gave them out as they were supposed to? Thank you very much Happy new year
Great question!! It has NOTHING to do with how or who would understand it. It has to do with the attitude of the manufacturer. One company divulges the MOST they are willing to, and the other divulges the LEAST they are willing to. It is a peek into the minds and thought process of the manufacturer. One is transparent, and one is secretive. One thinks you deserve to know the details the other feels you don't deserve it. One feels you may be sophisticated enough to understand it and gives you the benefit of the doubt, the other presumes you are too stupid to understand. One is a real person and deals with you as an equal. The other is an arrogant elitist who considers you less than they are. Are you picking up what I'm laying down ? ;-) 😉 Do you like to be subordinated by a dominator, or do you like to be treated with equal respect ? Are you a buying human, or are you a money pig ? These are potentially cues into the psyche of the manufacturer.... man or machine... soul or soulless..
@@OCDHIFiGuy I understand,you are right,you are right I,of course, insist that the average consumer (including me) has a hard time acquiring the knowledge and experience that you have. Average consumer i consider even the one can spend a million $ for a hifi system Be healthy & strong My best regards
Very few companies list a speaker down to 20hrtz unless you really start spending money, unless it’s powered bass. Magicos are known for bass and even they lost 25hrz in the lower models which is still excellent. You can hear that Magico go down to 25 unless your def.
LOL magico doesn't even tell you the Frequency response to their stuff!!! SPECIFICATIONS Magico M3 over 100k Driver Complement: 1 X 1” (2.8cm) Diamond Coated Beryllium Dome Tweeter 1 X 6” (12.24cm) Graphene Nano-Tec Midrange 3 X 7” (17.78cm) Graphene Nano-Tec Bass Sensitivity: 91 dB Impedance: 4 Ohms Recommended Power: 20 - 500 watts Dimensions: 48"H x 19"D x 13W (120cm x 49cm x 34cm) Weight: 320 lbs. (145 kg) Experience the M3
I like and listened to those speakers some years ago. I did not think people were Building them anymore. Also I don't care anything about Spects. If I listen to a speaker. & like it Someone at one time was fucking around Building or rediscovering the speakers. Not too long ago.
YEP Mikey . . . a LOT of marketing hype in which the speakers SOUND good but only on PAPER ! LOL I have always been such NON fan of Wilson . . . they spend SO much time and SUCH expense on the bling with fancy time alignment adjusters and fancy Porsche paint choices . . .Wilson RAR is probably a measurement when the speaker is stuffed in a corner to boost its bass response . . . enough said.
I liked Sasha 2... that was the one that I heard and liked back in the day. I think if I got a hold of some I could put them with the right gear to get the goodness out of them. They always seem to be teamed with the "wrong" gear in my opinion... but every audio show is the same result for me, from them. It's weird..
I will Chip in with a unqualified possible explanation about the headphones going to 20hz possibly like the transfer function inside a car that the low frequencies extension goes to 20hz because it's boosting the low frequencies and driving the space in the interior maybe it's the same in the ear canal ?
FYI - A change of 3 dB is accepted as the smallest difference in level that is easily heard by most listeners listening to speech or music. 3 dB rule: A 3 dB gain means twice (x2) the power. A 3 dB loss means half the power. For example, a system with 40 watts of input power and a 6 dB insertion loss will only have 10 watts of output power. dB: Decibel, a logarithm (equal to 10 times) ratio of the difference between two values.
BS audio…sorry, I stand corrected, PS AUDIO states their new loudspeakers have no problem hitting 20HZ. Let’s hear your input on PS AUDIO Mikey !! All the best brother
@@DirkJensenI guess you don’t watch Paul videos. Always gives himself a “shameless plug” and states the speakers have no problems going down to 20HZ. Not 28, I know what they show on the spec sheet
Well, about 75% of what you said is somewhat true. There are a lot of details regarding the physics of sound reproduction that is missing from your explanation.
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE if you like my message ! Yes, I know I got dyslexic with the -1.5db thing on the Duntech.. It was right there in the spec.
Many brands are aware that most don't care too much about spec,so just reveal whatever reads best in their brochures .As Floyd Toole pointed out,there's more information on the side of a tyre than on a speaker spec sheet and are often economical with the. truth.
I almost quoted him in the vid.... lol. Great quote...
REL doesnt give their specs at -3db but at -6db. This is a sub company you would expect them to give -1.5 db like JL Audio.
BAM.... My point EXACTLY... who has more integrity ?? What company/person would you trust in business more ?? The fluffer or the one that under rates ? It tells you a lot about whom you are dealing with..
-6db is reasonable , its the lowest output magnitude audible .
JL must be using EQ and servos to not quote a -6db point ..
Great video and man your videos have greatly improved. It really comes down to listening.
Thanks D !!
Hey Mike! This was a very informative presentation. I learned alot. you are the best! Thankyou for your courage and honesty. JC. Peace!!!
You hit the nail on the head with the pro audio reference. Impossible with flea wattage.
Not cheap. Not great efficiency. Deficits are covered with power. Bass frequencies use amperage. Why my wife bought Yamaha NS-5000 for our 500 watt Ice Modules.
Really a good one here, the emperor has no clothes😅
Very possibly...
My Rig plays -3DB at 12Hz. Anyone that claims that there’s no content in the 20Hz area is not experienced. Super low frequencies help to give the illusion of the sounds in concert hall and large room noises. Also low bass frequencies have harmonics below the fundamental. Adjusting 20Hz, 25hz, 31.5 hz with EQ all contribute significantly to bass instrument tonality. Reproduction of those frequencies are required in order for a stereo system to give “true to life” playback. 😊
Prove it...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I’ve got an actual measurement that shows 12Hz to 20KHz +~ 3 DB taken from the listening position, but RUclips doesn’t allow me to post any photos here. I’ll send the proof to your phone.
I have McIntosh XR200 and Dirac with Earthworks M30 mic measures +3db@20Hz in 20x30 room. My previous speakers McIntosh LS360s also measured up at 20Hz in room. Those speakers with California Audio Labs MCA2500 could hit 120db but not sure what 20Hz level was.
Definitely not 120dB... but yes, I'm clear on rooms. The video was more about manufacturers published speaker spec.
My favorite is 'in room response' where they can add room gain to claim that they go down lower. Maybe you can comment on active speaker measurements, do you find that they are more usable since active EQ can be used to widen and flatten the response?
Exactly... I think tuning the rig on the fly for the room/amp/speakers actively is where things will inevitably head..
Every 3db boost uses twice the power , too much EQ to compensate for bandwidth roll off kills dynamics and sounds unnatural unless HT playback ...
Interesting insights about the microphone frequency response. I doubt any loudspeaker company factors that into their specifications profile.
These are the things they DONT tell you. Another is the speakers distortion spec.
@@OCDHIFiGuyAnd that begs the question about the distortion specs of the test microphone.
@dragocelander6671 as well as the distortion specs of your own eardrum and its associated CNS. LOOK, A SQUIRREL !!
Something that is missed completely in speaker measurements is what sound is actually coming out? e.g. a small driver speaker used as a woofer when pushed hard will "double". it will produce sound pressure, but some will be at the 2nd harmonic of the fundamental sent to it. So you put in a 20hz signal and use a mic to measure the SPL. The total energy the mic detects might be at say 3db down from say 1kHz. But not all that sound pressure is just 20hz. Some is 40hz, ... but all you know is the total SPL, not what all is in it.
Or ports, which provide an output that is out of time because of the internal delay path of the sound. But to that mic, it is signal and will be included in the overall measurements. IOW just because there is some sound pressure measured at a specific frequency does not mean that speaker goes that low with any accuracy. Just that it makes noise at a certain SPL when that frequency is input.
Great addition to the message Glen, 👏 thanks !!
@@OCDHIFiGuy Random neuron firings! My family is less appreciative of them. 🙂
I was at the press release announcement for the first DBX auto-room EQ (DBX 20/20?). I was a DBX Rep at the time. Pink noise generator with calibrated mic. Would do a narrow band sweep internally to adjust the bands. I suggested that if the speaker was having problems at 30hz it would double and create 60hz signals. So this thing would boost 30hz because it is low, causing even more doubling, and drop the 60hz because of the added energy from the 30hz doubling.
I was literally escorted out of the room.
In my limited experience a big room (and a good amp) allows a speaker to better reveal the low frequency performance it has. I don’t know what the sweet spot is but I know its not 13x14 feet unless you really like 40hz. My goal is to experience a measurably flat room and then see if this is actually desireable or not.
Why isn't Jay very good at this stuff!! Nice job Mike!!
Aww man, go easy on him, he's doing his own thing his own way... ;-) its all good in the Hood..
Isn't it -6dB point where sound pressure is half? And the - 3dB point where rolloff starts?
I don't think you meant that -3 dB is half as loud. Also, in the bass region is not the total output not also a critical spec? Thanks, Mikey!
You bet Bruce ! I did mean that -3dB is half as loud. Do you know otherwise ? Total output is system dependent, and I was keeping this vid about published speaker specs and how they can be useless sometimes.
I think that 3db is half as much power, 10db is half as loud. That's what I have always seen quoted. 3db down is noticeably quieter but more than half as loud.
@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks, Mikey. My understanding is that -3 dB is a noticeable change in loudness but not 50% and that -10 would be perceived as half as loud. As Dave, below, indicates perception of loudness is logarithmically related to actual power. But, I may be wrong or am getting tripped up on semantics. In all events, Mikey and Dave, thanks for great stuff!
This is not different in most industries, new Corvette stats on the website, 495 HP, 8 speed transmission, 0-60 in X, and that's about it. Manufactures save the dyno and details for third party reviewers, an entirely separate industry that lives in the same ecosystem.
Yep, that's where they find out its not anywhere near spec at the rear wheels. So yes, thanks for cementing my point that Manufacturers, many times only care about specsmanship, fluff, and marketing. Thumbs DOWN...
Stereophile full reviews have detailed measurements from John Atkinson - folks may find those articles a helpful reference, if the relevant speaker has been reviewed (not a comment on editorial content, simply that they publish detailed measurements beyond what any manufacturer shares)
Bravo to that... wonder how the speaker manufacturers like the way he measures..
@@OCDHIFiGuy ha! Some, not so much perhaps…learning how to read impedance & impedence phase (and other measurements) interesting in understanding, broadly, amplifier matching and the engineering underlying some of what we hear (obviously listening is what ultimately matters). Also, once one knows what a real set of measurements looks like, then one knows what a maker is NOT telling you in their marketing. Re: makers, Klipsch somewhat notorious for overstating speaker sensitivity by 4-5 dB (they must be applying some “room gain” in what they publish), but it’s Klipsch so we love them anyway. Fun post, thanks again
Now you see why im building my own speakers
Best of luck. It's a black art...
Mickey, ever had a chance to evaluate "the loudspeaker" from Troels Gravesen? Thnx..@@OCDHIFiGuy
That's what I'm digging to know the truth from long time & curiosity running in my mind .. mikey revealing it.. great information 👍
Thanks for watching!
Thank, Mikey
Professor Mikey - a good teaching episode.
the 32 foot stop on an organ goes down to about 16.5hz, and gives a wonderful throb in a large building - described by a local organist as 'an expensive draft'. chasing after that in your living room is a waste of time imo!
BINGO !!
Outstanding video! Thanks for
Glad you liked it!
Thanks. More like this, please
You bet..
vivid audio tells you speaks to +-2DB and +-6 DB My 2 way YG acoustics speaker had a spec that said "usable bass down to 30 htz!!!" It was more like 45
Good info. "Useable" to whom, how, and for what ? Lol. It's such a vague statement, but people just swallow it hook, line, and sinker.
My ears and my parasympathetic nervous system are the boss.
That's it.
Thank you, Jesus
You are welcome, my son.
Very interesting!
A great pop song for testing "low frequency reproduction for the common man" is "Billy Jean" where the bass line running in the background can be heard only faintly on most speakers I have tested.
You once talked about having visited a studio where they have state of the art equipment which can deliver (recorded) music at crazy db levels - this is most likely as good as it gets bass wise... unlike you, most people(me included) will never have the chance to experience the difference between this and their (supposedly) "world class" hifi set.
So true, on all points !
+/-3db is referring to power. +/-10db is loudness/volume
I understand your point, but in the interest of accuracy, wanted to set the record straight.
+/-3db is often used as 3db is the difference in volume that average people can readily detect. +/-1.5db is a better measure to use for “audiophiles”.
Yeah, I got SPL and volume/loudness mixed up.
Dear Mr.P,
you are basically right but how many people(and i,of course) do you think would understand exactly what all these full specs mean and how they affect our ears and our room if the speaker companies gave them out as they were supposed to?
Thank you very much
Happy new year
Great question!!
It has NOTHING to do with how or who would understand it.
It has to do with the attitude of the manufacturer. One company divulges the MOST they are willing to, and the other divulges the LEAST they are willing to. It is a peek into the minds and thought process of the manufacturer. One is transparent, and one is secretive. One thinks you deserve to know the details the other feels you don't deserve it. One feels you may be sophisticated enough to understand it and gives you the benefit of the doubt, the other presumes you are too stupid to understand. One is a real person and deals with you as an equal. The other is an arrogant elitist who considers you less than they are.
Are you picking up what I'm laying down ? ;-) 😉 Do you like to be subordinated by a dominator, or do you like to be treated with equal respect ? Are you a buying human, or are you a money pig ? These are potentially cues into the psyche of the manufacturer.... man or machine... soul or soulless..
@@OCDHIFiGuy
I understand,you are right,you are right
I,of course, insist that the average consumer (including me) has a hard time acquiring the knowledge and experience that you have.
Average consumer i consider even the one can spend a million $ for a hifi system
Be healthy & strong
My best regards
You are a very interesting thinking person,i wish could meet you but that is probably impossible
Be healthy and strong
Thank you
Very few companies list a speaker down to 20hrtz unless you really start spending money, unless it’s powered bass. Magicos are known for bass and even they lost 25hrz in the lower models which is still excellent. You can hear that Magico go down to 25 unless your def.
I don't become curious about measurements until after I realize I like the speaker..lol.
I can relate...
LOL magico doesn't even tell you the Frequency response to their stuff!!! SPECIFICATIONS
Magico M3 over 100k
Driver Complement:
1 X 1” (2.8cm) Diamond Coated Beryllium Dome Tweeter
1 X 6” (12.24cm) Graphene Nano-Tec Midrange
3 X 7” (17.78cm) Graphene Nano-Tec Bass
Sensitivity: 91 dB
Impedance: 4 Ohms
Recommended Power:
20 - 500 watts
Dimensions:
48"H x 19"D x 13W
(120cm x 49cm x 34cm)
Weight: 320 lbs. (145 kg)
Experience the M3
BUT it's MAGIC !!!
In the audio world it's all about M&m. Money & Marketing. 😂😂🙏🏼🙏🏼😂😂
thats the WHOLE world, my brother.... Banks, Big Pharm, Health
"care", Automobile Industry, Watches, I could go on and on... lol
I like and listened to those speakers some years ago. I did not think people were
Building them anymore. Also I don't care anything about Spects. If I listen to a speaker. & like it
Someone at one time was fucking around Building or rediscovering the speakers. Not too long ago.
Maybe Wilson should call it ROOM DEPENDENT RESPONSE. RDR
LOL, anybody know what it means yet ??
love your content, but -3dB isn't "half as loud". -10 dB would be perceived as "half as loud". -3 dB would require half the POWER
Yeah, I got it. -3dB is half the SPL... it's not the important part of my message however.
Vaf I93 claim 21-1900 +/_ 1.2 db. I believe accurate spec.
Would be interesting to measure. They can print whatever they want.
YEP Mikey . . . a LOT of marketing hype in which the speakers SOUND good but only on PAPER ! LOL I have always been such NON fan of Wilson . . . they spend SO much time and SUCH expense on the bling with fancy time alignment adjusters and fancy Porsche paint choices . . .Wilson RAR is probably a measurement when the speaker is stuffed in a corner to boost its bass response . . . enough said.
I liked Sasha 2... that was the one that I heard and liked back in the day. I think if I got a hold of some I could put them with the right gear to get the goodness out of them. They always seem to be teamed with the "wrong" gear in my opinion... but every audio show is the same result for me, from them. It's weird..
@@OCDHIFiGuy thanks for your perspective . . . well taken :-)
actually the room is most important 20hz has a wavelenght of 17 m....go figure its the law of physics
How is it we can hear 20Hz in headphones ?
I will Chip in with a unqualified possible explanation about the headphones going to 20hz possibly like the transfer function inside a car that the low frequencies extension goes to 20hz because it's boosting the low frequencies and driving the space in the interior maybe it's the same in the ear canal ?
-3db is NOT half as loud. Wow.
Holy shit call the cops !!
FYI - A change of 3 dB is accepted as the smallest difference in level that is easily heard by most listeners listening to speech or music.
3 dB rule: A 3 dB gain means twice (x2) the power. A 3 dB loss means half the power. For example, a system with 40 watts of input power and a 6 dB insertion loss will only have 10 watts of output power. dB: Decibel, a logarithm (equal to 10 times) ratio of the difference between two values.
That's pedantic.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
1db is the least notable change. Not 3db. 3db in SPL is either twice as loud or quite! Dramatically noticeable.
Yes, good point, but I agree it's much smaller. I like tenth of a dB steps for gain.
@@OCDHIFiGuy With a good stepped attenuator!
❤
Dun-Tech!? ShOuld be CalleD DUM-Tech!! Derf-Derf-Derf-Derf!!!!!! Mwhaaaaaaaaa-DERF DERF DERF! derf.
You don't like them ? They are wicked from what I know. Like top level...
@@OCDHIFiGuy Dude I was just being retarded. I have no idea what Duntech even is, just had some crazy energy I needed to get out. :) DERF!!!! 🤣🤣
BS audio…sorry, I stand corrected, PS AUDIO states their new loudspeakers have no problem hitting 20HZ. Let’s hear your input on PS AUDIO Mikey !! All the best brother
Well, what did you learn from this video ?? To ask them how many dB down is that measurement and how was it measured ... ;-)
Always learn something from you with every video! Love it Mikey
PS Audio FR30 are speced on their website at 28 Hz @-6dB. I don't see where they claim 20 Hz.
@@DirkJensenI guess you don’t watch Paul videos. Always gives himself a “shameless plug” and states the speakers have no problems going down to 20HZ. Not 28, I know what they show on the spec sheet
Possibly 20hz in room instead of anechoic
Well, about 75% of what you said is somewhat true. There are a lot of details regarding the physics of sound reproduction that is missing from your explanation.
That's by design. I'm not an Engineer and so I don't play one on T.V.