Most Controversial Cars in History - 1986 Cadillac Eldorado / Seville - Part 2 (with John Manoogian)
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Part 2 of the most controversial cars in history, featuring the 1986 Eldorado and Seville, with guest John Manoogian.
Part 1 can be found here:
• Most Controversial Car... 
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I wonder how many drawings John has in his personal collection from his career. He really was prolific. And he's fascinating to listen to. Tell him thanks. 😊👍
The interviews with the various designers are my absolute favorites of your videos. Really can't get enough of them. Thank you!
We are always excited to see that John is back for another show. The insights, the stories, the problems and their solutions - it's all fascinating. We simply cannot get too much of "The Designers" on RCC.
Every single time youtube tells me there is a new “episode” with John I start planning when I am going to watch it, what I will be drinking while doing it etc. just to make sure nothing, absolutely nothing would disturb me. And btw. The sketch at 6:00 WHAT A BEAUTY!!! I would love to see that full size. Some Jaguar XJ 220 feeling there.
I'm so grateful that Mr. Manoogian was able to share his experience with these cars. I'd love to hear about the evolution these cars took through their production, as Cadillac was rushing to bump their sales.
Adam, your interviews with the designers provide so much insight on what they had to go through to bring a concept to production. People look at the 70's and 80's thinking, "Why did they design such ugly cars?" But your conversations reveal that the designers were up against government safety regulations, idiotic 5 mph bumpers, corporate average fuel economy, busy-body executives and (as you have noted) short-sighted bean counters. Not that designers are perfect, but they understand "brand integrity" better than most others.
These interviews are fantastic. John is clearly passionate about his craft - his excitement is contagious!
All of these concepts had modern sized wheels and tires. Makes a huge difference.
Young artists who love cars, please take my word: follow your dreams and make good choices. What a dream to go to work and let the automotive creativity flow. Ugh. This is awesome.
Again, thanks to John!
I was among the haters of these cars for a long time, and I certainly couldn't imagine these cars being any narrower than they were. HOWEVER, in recent years, I've come to appreciate them more. Like Adam and John observed, I feel like these cars have aged surprisingly well. Despite their shortcomings, they come off as significantly more modern than their predecessors, largely I think due to the smaller size, integrated bumpers, aircraft-style doors, and floor shifters. It's too bad John and Wayne didn't have a little more car to work with.
Fortunately, Seville and Eldorado were able roar back in a big way with the '92 models.
My dad had an 88 Seville. We had it for only 8 years before he sold it for a new Aurora. He put over 300k on it with very few problems. The biggest issues related to the HVAC system. Over the years it needed a compressor, an evaporator, and a condenser. Front brakes twice, rears once. No suspension, major engine, or transmission work was ever done. One of the radiator tanks was replaced as was the power antenna. I miss that car a lot.
Adam, have you considered the idea of having John and Wayne together for a live stream where viewers could also ask questions via the comments? You obviously have a great ability to engage with these talented designers and uncover history not available elsewhere.
Excellent idea!
You've elicited my "I want one" response again. This was a superb presentation. Thank you,
I special ordered a 1990 Buick Electra/Park Avenue....after looking at these two Caddies; I just felt that the Buick was a great value; I got the "Prestige Option Package" on my P/A, so it had extras that NEITHER Caddy had at that price level. I LOVED THAT CAR!
Hey Adam, thanks for sharing this interesting interview with John!!! 👍👍🙂
EVERYTHING is wrong with those cars... Proportions, interiors, the once glorious Eldorados, Sevilles, Rivieras, Toronados, ripped to shreds, they once represented class, luxury, uniqueness and did much to enhance the prestige of their respective brands, to have reduced them to these models is one of GM's biggest crime... They literally killed the segment of personal luxury cars with these, way to small, it's clear the designers had no hope of bringing something good with the sizes and restrictions, no wonder sales tanked, for Cadillac in particular, the final nail in the coffin, the 85 DeVille was pretty awful but these? Did anybody sane put these cars next to the previous model side by side wthout cringing? I don't know if Mr Wayne Cady was still in charge in the conception of these, but considering his past accomplishments, he'd be better off skipping an interview to even comment on these, designers were not responsible but management? After the glorious 70's, early 80's models, what a downfall...
Sales crashed by 72% for the '86 models, and it was estimated that the failure of these cars cost GM something like $500 million per year.
@@dagr382 Those figures are awful for sure but well deserved, I remember their pitiful attempts to make them appear longer by stretching out bumpers and fillers before having time for a complete redesign, nobody was fooled, they got what they deserved, I loved those models in the past, I only bought a new 95 Riviera when they got back to their senses, but a lot of unredeemable damage was done, hope a few heads rolled for this debacle...
Thank you Adam for inviting John Manoogian again. I liked what he had to say. The thing that caught my ear is when he said that GM executive said that these two cars were too close to the N Bodies. They were and I know Buick and Oldsmobile caught flack for that and they still do when they always show the N bodies with the E/K Bodies why they talk about these cars. I was glad with they fixed these models in 1988 model year. GM knew it was a mistake and it time time to correct so much from this era. They really corrected things with the 1992 models. You can see the next generation Seville in his concepts as you said Adam. These designers you have shared are some really forward thinking people. I know that GM thought the gas prices were going to be expensive and it did not happen and that happened as they were introducing all these cars during some turbulent times at GM. It was not just Cadillac that suffered either. GM went through some rough times in the 1980's with all the brands. I always refer to this era as the downsized era. The 1988 facelift help and the 4100 become the 4.5 Liter V8 then 4.9 helped too. Thank you again.
Again, thanks to you and to John for featuring design ideas for these two Cadillacs. I really enjoyed it.
Always a pleasure with the both of you, I see a LOT of the next gen Seville in some of those sketches as well.
I think that generation of Eldorado and Seville have aged extremely well. I surprise myself by saying that because back in 1986 I really disliked these downsized cars. They were just too small. However, over the last 30+ years, all cars got smaller, wheels were pushed out to the ends of the cars, eliminating the front and especially rear overhang that cars had had since the 1940s. Now, the ‘86 and later Eldorado and Seville are a perfect size and they look tailored and taut and almost customized. They’re both very handsome cars, it just took 35 years for us to catch up to what John was doing back then.
We didn't catch up,what happens is that the cars nowadays are so crappy and ugly that makes these cars look good.
You got to choose between Satan and Lucifer to get the less evil.
John is a great guest, hes got the stories :)
80MM or no my 87' Seville still looked like a hippo on a bar stool anyway!! Excellent share John -I'm taking that to work with me tomorrow -guys will love it🙂
Great interview! I want one! What a talent.
I could listen to Manoogian speak all day long. So charismatic and fun. It's cool how some of the early drawings look like larger Fieros and some look very Chrysler Concorde-ish. Very, very forward (cab? Lol) thinking for 1980. Turned into an iconic car with its own distinct look.
At 10:53, you mentioned the rear lights of the Eldorado was changed after 1 year. I have a 1987 Eldorado Biarritz and the make over ( including the rear lights ) was in 1988. Only a small detail and I am so I pressed with your detailed knowledge!
Originally I was impressed with yiur mechanical abilities ( and the fact that your hands are not mechanic hands….lol), but so much information that it brings me memories. For a man born in the 80’s, how do you know so much of these older cars? Keep up the great work! Fred
Thank you for posting these kinds of videos, this gentleman is truley an artist
I started working at Ed Estes Cadillac in 1973 in Atlanta Ga. As a porter. Stayed at GM Dealerships until 2008. This brings back good and bad memories. Sad to say GM has been on a slow roll to death.
Absolutely love your channel - especially the design focused ones! Keep up the good work!
I liked the looks of this generation of Eldorado (I owned an '88 back in the day). What i didn't like was its lackluster performance. Adam, thanks for putting these programs together!
You must be able to handle a lot of rejection in the design vs end product.Very interesting
I really wish some if his Eldorado sketches made it into production! They are gorgeous!!!
These interviews are so fascinating! Keep ‘em coming Adam.
Now those 2 parts were really fun. John is honest & forthright…And he’s very very talented. Those Seville & Eldorado designs were spectacular.
Thanks for this video. Mr. Manoogian's wonderful artwork made the late-1980s Seville and Eldorado look far better than the actual cars. The sketches captured a more vivid styling statement which would have made the cars stand out from GM's cringe-worthy cookie-cutter approach at that time. GM toned their looks down so much that they wound up looking too much like deformed GM A-bodied Celebrity/6000/Cutlass Cierra/Century. It was like the Cadillac Cimarron disaster all over again. The rationales GM had for refusing to do some things with the design of these cars was so circular and contradictory. It's like someone should have forced all of the executives to sit in a room and discuss what the meaning of the project was in the first place. If the intent of the Seville was to produce a small(er) Cadillac that would appeal to younger buyers and lure them away from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc., the late-80s Eldorado and Seville were getting pretty far off-track. Cadillac would have been better off taking the Eldorado and Seville off of modifed A- or C- body designs of that era; the Pontiac 6000STE was far closer to being a "sport sedan" competitor with the Europeans than the Seville/Eldorado ever was in the 1980s. A slightly smaller version of the C-body, configured with a fuel-injected Buick 3.8 V6 with a balance shaft, with suspension for better handling, would have made the Seville/Eldorado into superior Cadillac sport sedans, and with better gas mileage than the Cadillac V8. And the most shocking screw-up of that era was that GM allowed the Pontiac 6000STE to get all-wheel-drive, but GM never produced a 1980s Cadillac with AWD. Not one. The Seville and Eldorado needed something to distinguish themselves from the Olds Toronado and Buick Riviera. All-wheel-drive was the ticket. Instead they waste time and money shoe-horning a V8 into their downsized cars, effectively defeating the purpose of their multi-billion-dollar downsizing program in the first place. GM's 1980s irony goes from the absurd to the sublime.
What the hell is with the giant wheels on the sketches!?! Both John & Wayne's, was there a memorandum in Cadillac to do that??
In the summer of ‘85 my dad was seriously considering an ‘85 Eldorado but I , as the car enthusiast in the family, convinced him to wait for the all new design which I told him would be awesome. He ordered one in September and took delivery 6 weeks later… when it arrived he couldn’t believe he waited for this.
I never lived that piece of advice down!
1:13 I loved the coarse egg-crate on the '76 Seville, but the subsequent 3 grilles looked a little J.C. Whitney to my eyes. I always wondered if customer complaints or focus groups drove that change.
Very challenging for John to navigate the (too small) packaging of these cars although I must say, I do like the Seville.
What a cool guy. Thanks for sharing this with us! Love his designs!!
Adam, this made my Sunday! Thank you!
I love the how the 1986 had a smooth rear end and flat top front of fenders
Fascinating discussion!
The downsized 86 cars evolved into the ETC and STS trims which to my eye really have aged the best. John did quite well with this one.
I always wondered how the program would have played out if John and the design team were able to just update the 1979 design. That platform already had 4 wheel disc brakes, 4 wheel independent suspension, and plenty of room under the hood to put the new 4.5 and transmission in transversely.
If anyone with art and graphics software skills can chime in, maybe you can try to apply some of John’s sketches to the 1985 Eldorado, keeping the same General dimensions.
Liked them both, the Seville and the Eldorado but the Eldorado had the sharpest look imo. One of my favorites well into the 90's, especially the refresh.
John is a nice guy, very interesting and fun to listen to.. good eye, great style.
I miss my El Dorado
That grey Eldo concept at 0:30 ... I see soooo much Lagonda influence there. It's just perfect. Can you just imagine an Aston-Martin/Cadillac cooperative Eldorado? GM's money and manufacturing, Manoogian's design, A-M's panel beaters AND their glorious V8 under that hood? Perfect halo car.
As a teenager in the 70’s I had a great experience with a 53 Cadillac coupe and later a parts car Coupe de Ville. Every part is bolted on, no 3M here. Hydraulic windows!!
A small Cadillac is like alcohol-free vodka. That's how those designs came out. Neither fish nor fowl.
Really cool interview. It’s a shame how the designers were fettered by inept management because, despite their efforts, the design was horribly compromised and the cars basically destroyed the brand.
It wasn't really the designers' fault, because they had such a small package to work with, but these tiny Eldorados give the appearance of being cheap, flimsy, and plasticky. Maybe it's the plastic bumpers, the sloped hood that gives no presence, the lightweight feel throughout. No wonder these cars did not sell well.
Although I think these cars were very cheesy looking for any luxury car brand, I always enjoy Adam's perspectives. I also didn't realize how many challenges GM was facing at the time. Anyhow, the 1990's was better times for Cadillac, going back to more traditional styled automobiles that defined the brand. That generation should have featured a more developed Northstar and Cadillac might have remained on top of their game.
I had the 1991 Seville as shown in Part 1 silver with Grey Blue interior. 4.5 Litre 8 CYL. Transmission prematurely went at 60K. Car was never the same after the repair.
Love these conversations with the designers!
This Manoogians design style of the 80s is modern today. Few lines but perfect.
At 6:05….. What a beautiful design!!! Prettiest I’ve ever seen for years!
Throughly enjoyed this two segments of this era of Cadillac. BTW, these drawings still look relevant.
I always kind of liked these designs; they were certainly very modern compared to what went before. I only imagine if they had been about 10-15% larger they wouldn't have been the flops that they proved to be, because the design itself it very handsome.
Adam, will you make any more Manoogian videos? Also, do you like Regular Car Reviews?
Hopefully. He’s a gentleman and great guest.
60% of rcr is complaining about boomers + making fart/shit noises.
@@evanc6110 Do you think he’s woke?
John is articulate and portrays intelligence and class and awareness of his role as well as how far he could push the envelope and get his job done.
Unfortunate the manic Cadillac Seville style choices. 1975-79 started off on the right foot…..had they jumped right to 1986 design for Seville? Who knows. However the 1979-85 Eldo, Riviera were perfect. And likely minted profit!
@@stoneylonesome4062 He literally said he couldn't drive some 60s ford (Galaxy? Fairlane? Can't remember, it was convertible.) Because the people who designed the car were "racist, misogynistic, etc" and he couldn't handle it.
So I guess he is probably "woke". And I do not mean that in a positive way.
Adam, what would you think of having John, Wayne, and Marc analyzing a styling theme? Off the top of my head I can't think of a recommendation, but that would be wild! You'd look good in a lion tamer's outfit.
typically I prefer the traditional american design theme as compared to the euro/touring versions of a particular car but the Eldorado ETC and STS of thos generation are one of my favorite euro flavored cars. the eldo looks so low and stable ar the back end it simultaneously says class and muscle.
Would love to see a video about the history and review of the first generation '80s Pontiac Bonneville SSE
The first rendering at the beginning is my favorite, modern yet still Cadillac like.
Another thing I remember from this era is that GM was notorious for having huge lenses for accent/turn signal lights that had one lonely bulb instead of the two or three needed before LEDs.
My parents were Cadillac drivers. (Still are) I remember as a teen when the ‘86 Eldorados and Sevilles hit the showroom. My Dad in particular was not impressed. He wound up with a refreshed ‘90 Biarritz. The refresh helped win him back. While I understand the packaging constraints the designers were up against, if I recall the ‘92 Eldos had the same platform and wheelbase but looked more “Cadillac” so to speak in size and presentation. Was there a weight or design reason a bigger body was not used earlier on in the process? I nearly fell off the sofa when John shared that the E/K nearly went into production thee inches less wide! Wow. That would have been tiny. Anyway, I love these talks. Always interesting.
Working on 80,s GM products was a nightmare.
These were very popular in Europe. Many Sevilles. Rare now. But I remember a white STS parked in the neighborhood that was extremely beautiful.
The body lines and roof lines make it look like a high top sneaker.
I love my 86 Coupe DeVille the fiber optic fender and interior brake lights indicators I though was ingenious. no bulbs
This gen Eldorado and Seville, while nice looking, I think we're too similar to the equivalent Deville. The 79 Eldorado in particular was just a great size of car, with good usable space inside. When it was downsized, although packaging was still good, it was now competing with the very modern and also fwd Coupe deville for 85. Bill from Curious Cars posited that all Sevilles should've been STS, and I really agree. Having the Deville and Seville both with the 4100... I mean which would you pick? What were the practical differences? Commuting to an overall more sporty package (different engine tune and exhaust, and of course the touring sedan trim changes) might've helped differentiate them.
That being said, I still see this gen Eldorado on marketplace occasionally and I'm always tempted. The late 80s models with the improved 4100 and even 4.5 would honestly probably be a pretty decent car today. I think the design of those and the Seville have held up very well.
Thanks for sharing all the amazing sketches again, John Adam! I have to agree that there's definitely 90s Cadillacs that took inspiration from some of these. I saw the 92 Eldorado and Seville but also the 93 Fleetwood and 94 Deville. John was absolutely ahead of the ball with these early 80s sketches and models. That full size clay with the lower grill and wrap around from windshield was really a great design!
Designers did a lot with the size restrictions. It is a shame that these couldn't have been new models, instead of replacements for beloved larger cars? Perhaps all would have sold well.
Sort of off topic, but on topic- Does anyone know why GM decided to leave Chevy out of the 2nd round of downsizing their Caprice/Impalas? I remember when the downsized Boneville came out and thought that Chevy would do the same with the Caprice. Are their any concept drawings out there of what a 1986 fwd Caprice/Impala would have looked like? I've doodled a few- I think it would have looked like a slightly larger Celebrity much the same way the other GM full sizers looked similar to their midsized offerings.
I must go on record & confess that this was always my least favorite body style of the Seville. I understand that the name of the game in the 1980's was efficiency, & this car DID have a gorgeous interior, but you could literally park this car next to a Buick Skylark/Somerset, Oldsmobile Calais, or Pontiac Grand Am of the same year & people would be very hard-pressed to tell the difference.
Adam, I wonder if you would ask John why starting in the 80's, it was thought to be a good idea to start eliminating trunk space by decreasing trunk length?
The front end of the red drawing at 1:38 looks like the redesigned 1992 Seville and 1994 DeVille.
more more more. this is tragical. it is tragical as it shows a mirror how cars could have been much earlier. wow. love those wide stance caddys. should've been made all of them. wonder how would mr Manoogian design Corvettes. I mean it would be very interesting to see how would he make it in the 80s. After the C4 of course. Would the C5 still be a front engine or... ?
John, were you the man responsible for the 1988 Cadillac Eldorado slight revision? If not who was if i may ask? I thought the 1988 model looked much much more "Cadillac" and sales reflected it.
Wayne Kady led the revision for ‘88
@@dznr723 i feel bad you to work wit GM at that time it must have very hard .also you have great designs...my dad built cars at Studebaker in Hamilton Ontario 19 years..
The same was said about the 1987 DeVille/Fleetwood refresh and 1989 redesign. Many Cadillac buyers didn't like the flat rear end of the 1985-86 DeVille/Fleetwood so the 1987 rear end added side extensions and had formal looking wrapped around taillights which many said was an improvement over the 1985-86 rear end. Also, the composite headlights that appeared on the 1987 refresh gave it a nice touch as well.
Great great great stuff! There is not much similar out there in the endless youtube universe...
I also rekognize the 92 Seville/Eldorado in some of John's proposals.
The A pillers had a rust problem
The E/K should have probably just been another variant of the C/H cars. It would have saved more money. They could have avoided tooling up for those Electra/98 Coupes that they only sold a handful of anyway.
I had a 90 Seville back in the day. I really liked it. Too bad that the northstar engines are trash.
I remember the Toronado Trofeo had these smoked back lights 🇺🇸
Wow…so the initial engineering spec given to Design was the N car platform? Who knew? The the extra 80 mm made them the E-K platform? I think that’s my take away anyway. Please clarify/correct as needed.
John, your skill as an artist is outstanding. Another great watch from Adam and John....
I always thought the 86 Seville and Eldorado did resemble the N car Calais
Why not chiseled tailfins being brought back? Talk about a Caddy signature. I like it that more thoughtful detail are in today's cars but this was a good study of what was happening in the Eighties!
It took Nissan to do it in the 2000's to show it could've been done! I luv the look
I always thought the 86 Eldorado was a bit lacking especially the back end but it got new Larger taillights in 87 which looked much better and they kept the look through 91, I believe.
The Eldorado I absolutely don't like and never did was the 75-78.
My friends dad who liked and owned nice luxury cars , bought a new 91 Eldorado touring coupe, very nice car, it was his last car as he passed away about 1993, so his wife kept it till about 1997 when she got a new red Eldorado
At 6:00 that would have been great with RWD and the design treated like the Cadillac flagship...No hold barred, top quality luxury...Something they would not do and they have paid the price.
I admit, I actually did like the Seville STS from that generation. It looked really sporty at that time.
It is very interesting seeing the sketchesd but I think that all the cool ideas that made it to production ended up looking wrong and disproportionate, except for the seville's tail lights, those were cool.
John is a true master designer, and no doubt worked within the confines of both management’s desires and financial constraints. But it seems Cadillac simply lost its way in the mid 80s. Smaller is ok, but too small is not a Cadillac any longer. Some of the designs on paper look great, but a lot of them never saw the light of day, except if they were changed markedly. Mistakes made during the mid 80s have dogged Cadillac to this day.
The big forehead just don't look right
Automotive History!
These would be perfectly fine cars if they said Pontiac GrandAm on them.
@Eric Ruud yep, rolling Garbage Motors stock at it's clingiest. At least if a Toyota has a cheapish interior is put together well and the whole car is reliable.
I did like the design of these cars but their failure was the way they were engineered. All the reviews at the time pointed out they were filled with half compromises that resulted in a car that appealed to no one. They could not perform like a 300E, 6 or 5 series, or Audi Quattro. They did not have the presence of their prior generation. So they were a mediocre car that’s whole purpose was to be aspirational. I had a 1985 Olds Calais Supreme. I liked the car. And as pointed out they looked like 4/5 versions of the Eldorado, Riviera and Tornado. Why would someone pay 50% more for a car that not only looked the same but was not considered elite like the European competition? They didn’t sell. Another factor that was such a big deal was they were manufactured with a NEW factory that Roger Smith called the wave of the future. It included robots for welding and assembly. They screwed up more than they got right. So for 1986 and 1987 model years the cars were painted terribly, the bodies were compromised with lack luster build quality. The only saving grace for the robots were that no one was buying them. So the production delays did not have as much impact as they should have.
The 1989 Riviera and Toronado were lengthened and had far greater presence. They sold better too, but by then the breed of executive coupes were coming to a close.
Exactly, good points I was thinking same. Mom bought a brand new bigger/better Buick Riviera in '89 and it had the industry's first touchscreen console, snazzy interior and was actually a good performer/reliable. It lasted her till 99 when she got a new ElDorado!
Mom loved her "executive coupes"!
The Toronado was lengthened thirteen inches in 1990, using the same size 1986 to 1989 hood.
I'd take that Seville over electric cadillac any day. The wheels looked good pushed to the edges nice stance.
Hardly as controversial as the Bangle Butt BMW's, which demonstrated to me, as do current Toyotas, that styling is soundly trumped by perceived status/value.
1986 Eldorado and Seville look better to me than today's CT5, although I do like the CT4.
Funny enough i own that pink eldorado they refrence 10:28 solid car overall
I much prefer John to Wayne Katie