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A problem is that schools teach citation as this thing you have to do so you don't get in trouble, rather than something you provide the audience with to help them better understand your content. Once I realized this, the quality of my citations improved so much. I'm of the belief that the sources should be in the video itself when possible, because the description is not always easily accessible for people watching on TVs or other platforms. Tom Ska also had a good take on plagiarism. Not all plagiarism is the same. He came up with different tiers and talked about the gray area between plagiarism and inspiration. Definitely worth a watch.
I only got this once I started reading some (older) philosophy / sociology with extremely lackluster original citations but very trough translators notes attempting to fix that
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's such a good thought! We absolutely DESPISE doing citations exactly for that reason of *it's that thing you HAVE to do but that most people don't pay attention to anyway and is utterly pointless 😒* Treating it as something that could help people understand what we're saying and where we're coming from sounds like a way better frame of mind. Plus it might help us use citations in a way that would be more helpful to people rather than just being *the footnotes section no one reads*
That's something that I think education struggles with conveying to students in general, to be honest! The "why" is so important, and unfortunately even a curious learner who has the curiosity to try to **ask** why will usually get a slap on the wrist for insubordination (at least in most of the USA) because culturally we still have the "do what I say or else" mindset. Literally everyone would benefit from understanding the "why"s
@@ZombiBunni_I'll actually have to pass this onto a family friend who's studying at uni atm and involved with student organization so they may try to pass it forward
As soon as you said “The answer is simple: punish them,” my immediate thought was “Zoe that goes against everything you’ve taught me. Something’s up here.”
It was really well done because it did the slow build TO that conclusion. So you can be in general agreement from the start, just buy into the "facts" that are being presented, so that by the time the final claim hits you are stuck in either agreeing or rejecting the "facts".
People seem to be forgetting that he didn't just palagrize; he also used the goodwill built off of his plagarism (and also false information) to spearhead harrassment campaigns against anyone who tried to call him out and effectively scam the hell out of a lot of people for his fake movie studio
That's true, however this video isn't just about Somerton, if it was, then yeah, I guess it would make sense to focus on that, but this is about plagiarism as a whole and how to discourage it, and prevent it. Although again, Somerton is a piece of shit, and I do personally believe he deserved to have his career ruined, like he in particular really seems like a complete piece of shit.
The funniest part of the plagiarism accusations against ARANOCK and my Star Wars video was that I appeared in both, in both playing a Star Wars style character
Clicking "sort by new" and ending up with your comment on top, I had to double check I didn't sort by top comment for a sec haha but no it was just perfect timing
I think some people don't actually understand what plagiarism is. Like, it's not the same thing as homage or parody, but I've seen quite a few people saying media + content creators who do this work being accused of plagiarism.
It's really funny that your username has a 1 at the end. Didn't know the Star Wars video existed, will watch. Your Guardians of the Galaxy video was amazing, i wanted to thank you lots for making it happen :)
I have an extreme case of ADHD, and was fairly annoyed that James Somerton used that as one of his excuses for his plagiarism. ADHD doesn’t make you forget something that important. edit: alright, this may have been a bit of an oversimplification. I clarified in my replies, but figured I'd write it here. Yes, you can forget any number of things not matter how important. For instance, I forgot my therapist appointment literally three times in a row. The point is people with ADHD will definitely forget to write down sources. But after getting called out for it once (or even a few times), we tend to overcompensate and create thorough processes so that it prevents us from forgetting to write down sources because it will literally be built into the process you create. And yes we still won’t be perfect, but we wouldn’t respond the way he did because it would be a legitimate mistake
He makes it sound like a mysterious force that just swoops in and removes knowledge, which is just unfair to real ADHDers I know whose lives are like 70% learned ADHD coping strategies.
In my experience ADHD makes it easier to write your own stuff than to sit and read and steal other people's. It's a more active therefore preferable activity. But what ADHD makes you forget depends on what you find important. If you don't give a shit about crediting people or being honest about your research and highlighting other writers then you're more likely to forget those things. Somerton's just lying and trying to garner sympathy though and I'm glad most people see through it.
@@morgantrias3103 "But what ADHD makes you forget depends on what you find important. If you don't give a shit about crediting people or being honest about your research and highlighting other writers then you're more likely to forget those things." Totally agree! I was going back and forth in whether or not I wanted to explain this, but in the end, I didn't want to make my initial comment so long explaining every nuance lol, but you're totally right.
My boss uses her ADHD as an excuse for forgetting really important stuff that could make me and my colleagues who are under her in a bad light and even harm us professionally. I totally get why you're angry. ADHD is not equal to irresponsability and it never will.
Yeah. If anything it just gives you anxiety that leads to editing more cautiously to make sure that you actually remembered to cite your sources appropriately.
zoe: and if we're so obsessed with catching plagiarists, we should probably investigate where they come from me whispering to myself, nodding solemnly: _ohio..._
@@hanzobonaza Ohio has become somewhat of a Meme state in the past few years. It’s a very basic slice of American, not on a coast, not fully in the Midwest, not much special and a little heavier on meth addicts than you’d ask for, but mostly just very normcore America….. And plagiarism is an odd crime that’s not news worthy, no Florida man stuff… so it’s funny to claim that all plagiarism is somehow irreversibly to Ohio.
@@Gus-n9uAs a Californian, Ohio is also a state where people come from. I’ve never been to Ohio… oh wait, I forgot! I actually did spend the night in Ohio once. I forgot lol. Anyway, I’m adding to your explanation, as a self absorbed “coastal elite,” to say that Ohio is a place that people are from. Not a place that people move to or go to on purpose. So blank saying “From Ohio” is funny. It’s not particularly political, as it’s not New York, the south, etc. It’s always in the news as a swing state. So, it stands to reason, that “normal” people live in Ohio, leave Ohio, and go fill the rest of the US doing such activities as plagiarism and such ❤
I was a student conduct officer in undergrad (professional narc, whaddup lol), and I sat on a number of boards for allegations of plagiarism. Every single time, the student knew that they'd done something wrong, they copped to it immediately, and expressed that they only did it because of a failure of time management or other stressful situation that left them without time to complete the work the proper way. Notably, these cases were only brought when a professor showed an assignment to the Dean of Studies, so a professor had to realize it for a case to even start, and in every board I sat on, the professor reported that they noticed pretty immediately. With very few exceptions, our usual sanction that we assigned was to invalidate the assignment and recommend to the professor that the student be allowed to redo it, which the professors almost always accepted. This is all to say, we all mutually understood why it was wrong, and most students didn't at all need to be told why (I mean, they chose to go to a pretty academically challenging college after all), not to mention that the people who did it usually did it once, copped to it immediately, and never did it again. The kind of plagiarism we tended to see was because someone desperately tried to cut a corner in a non-ideal situation. Not the kind of plagiarism that goes unnoticed, or that feels very morally bankrupt. So I agree, often the consequences of plagiarism are pretty negligible. I mean, no student was stealing any money or academic credit from another scholar in their field, it was just undergrad papers for basic course credit, haha. But the situation definitely gets more tense when there's money and livelihoods on the line, and your audience is millions of strangers as opposed to just one teacher who's helping you learn to write and research. I would stand by that the strict, but limited in scope and compassionate approach that we had at my college is a good way to approach it. We of course had a lot of power; we had the ability to do everything up to and including expelling students from the college, but we never seriously considered something so extreme for the cases we tended to hear. Obviously the flagrant offenders need a stronger response, but coming at people with compassion tended to serve us pretty well!
I’d be fascinated to learn if you deal with AI cases, students using Chat-GPT for their writing, and if you guys have made any precedents on that already.
flew too close to the sun with the fake quotes, i immediately felt the urge to google whether "rhonda santis" was a real person with a VERY unfortunate name
This is my first time on this channel but something pinged for me with that name specifically as well. Glad my critical thinking isn't completely asleep today LOL.
Personally, I think falsifying data is way more egregious than plagarism. Plagarism is effectively stealing which hurts the one who did the actual work. Falsifying data is not only stealing, it’s full-on fraud and it hurts everyone who believes the data and uses it to form arguments. Francesco Gino is who I particularly have in mind. I don’t think she’s evil, but I think her behavior has demonstrated that she values her status more than honesty and data. Lastly, self-plagarism is bogus and I hate it.
This is how I have always felt on the matter, particularly when it comes to what I’ll call “info dump media” (video essays, history podcast, ect.) anyone who collects data for the right reasons should care more about the spreading of valid data than they do about credit… not to say credit isn’t important, but if it’s the goal, you are an ass and a bad researcher. Often you can tell the difference between plagiarism and laziness with these kind of situations. Look at The Dollop, a history podcast. Anyone who listens to even 20 minutes understands that these two COMEDIANS have not created the research they are discussing and disseminating, however, it’s also clear they want to spread ideas they believe are true and correct. When they got caught up in a “plagiarism scandal”, it was pretty clear on the outset that it was classic laziness and not malice of any kind. This is an example of something that is inherently wrong, but not the thing I want us focusing on. False data is a far greater threat than improperly cited data. Both can be fixed at once, but I’d rather fix a house fire BEFORE a dumpster fire?
I think they are different in that the damage to the one person being plagiarized usually impacts them specifically and both personally and professionally whereas falsified data is not done to nobody in particular and mostly has professional consequences. It's like having something stolen from you specifically vs money embezzeled from your country's budget.
@@leow.2162 I see your point, but consider the consequences of those who trust in the falsified data. Those who use that data to build their arguments, write their dissertations, and publish their books are all compromised by that falsified data. To me, having someone steal from me is personal, having someone dupe me into believing something that was false and cite it to make my argument not only feels like theft, it makes me tainted by proxy as now my arguments are skewed as they were realiant upon incorrect assumptions.
@ReflectionsofChristianMadman it also often leads to alot of people actually getting hurt physically. Just think about how many people died in the pandemic because of BS pseudoscience.
Zoe Today: "I'm confident and successful. I know what my audience likes, I do what I want!" Zoe Community Post Yesterday: "Are you guys reaaaallly sure that you like my cat?? 🥺"
@@TinLeadHammer She didn't get confident and successful by listening to the writing advice of someone who confuses thourough analysis of a topic with a rant.
@@thatguythere6161In fairness, I can see this comment as standard tongue-in-cheek internet snark rather than actual confusion and/or a complaint. But I could be wrong!
I think one of the more insidious things about Somerton's plagiarism was using the good ideas of others to couch his own bad ideas, the Tod in the Shadows video adds a whole different depth to what Somerton did
Yeah like his weird misogynistic takes were treated as gospel because of his more intellectual "takes", it's actually the reason I stopped watching him wayy before his plagiarism was called out.
pirates known for welfare XD ok its a genuine good study , like how was that in and not caught, its a good study how easy you can more wrong stuff presented confedent with true stuff.
Todd's video is much more damning on top of Harry's, seeing how much he stole then how much he lied outright was a fucking nasty two punch combo. @@marocat4749
And not only to couch his own bad ideas, but to couch his cowriter's straight up made up "facts". It's honestly funny how basically everything Somerton wrote was plagiarised from somewhere and everything his cowriter wrote was made up bs because that guy, in his own words, does not read and does not do research.
can you imagine being this mystery creator whom she considered exposing for plagiarism and watching this video with an absolute iron grip on your chair
I'm upset she'd allow someone to continue tricking thousands of people. It's dishonorable to do that, and to knowingly allow it. She wouldn't be ruining his livelyhood. He ruined it making poor choices.
@@samanthadelacroix640Yeah I agree 100% see something say something is a motto I live by. Unless it puts you in an obviously dangerous situation it is important to call out when someone is doing wrong. I know her “sources” at the start were fake but it’s true that if you don’t “punish” someone as she says they *will* keep doing it since there is no reason for them to stop. Also I agree it wouldn’t be ruining his livelihood! He is the one who ruined it by doing this in the first place. I’ve heard that so many times with women coming forward about men abusing them and people go “Why did you say anything this will ruin his life!” He ruined his own damn life!! I know it’s not to the same level as abuse but it is still the same mindset which bothers me
i can imagine that she followed her own advice she gives at the end. maybe she reached out privately to the creator? i want to be optimistic like that. i hope if the creator reacted negatively to her reaching out, she would've said something.
did you guys just not watch the video? did you just hear her talk about it and explain her decision and didn't pay attention??? also equating her stance on plagiarism to SA apologists is WILD and inappropriate
And the audio space! As someone who mainly listens (because I am at work fixing cars, and my neighbors tend to listen to right wing radio): I love the cat purrs.
Carl Jobst even exposed his OWN cheated speed run from many years ago. Exposing your own mistakes before they're caught, by the way, is a good way to preserve trust.
after hbomber video some youtubers did the same. Sadly i can only remember one name (Tomska) but i remember some content creator mentioning few others.
@@samamies88 No, I didn't watch the Tomska video. I don't watch his channel. I was talking about Carl Jobst. Dude, did you even read my comment? Edit: Oh, I see what happened. We played the pronoun game. When I said "he" I was referring back to Carl Jobst in my original comment. You thought I was referring back to Tomska in your reply.
What I like about Tomska is that he admits numerous times that he has made several mistakes. His Somerton scale video, Fun Facts and F*ckups, and the fan meetups video show that he isn’t some flawless creator, and he holds himself accountable for his many faults, which helps to build trust.
I know this isn't the point of the video, but I love how around 39 minutes in, the cat is so happy you can just hear them purring into the mic as Zoe goes on her lecture.
Well one of the things that goes against Somerton is the fact that when critcisms against his plagiarism came to light before the Hbomberguy video, even with a person who wanted to give him a chance to improve, he weaponized the idea of a queer witch hunt against a creator and used his massive platform to crush them.
I love how James went through all this completely unscathed instead, as he was after the goofy cancellation attempt over Ghostbusters 2016. The guy is uncancellable.
Like a year ago I was accused of plagiarism by a teacher. The situation was luckily fixed in less than 24 hours - apparently I was mixed up with another student who had an extremely similar name to mine. But those few hours were fucking terrifying, it truly felt like my life was over. The teacher was horrible, and despite me trying to send him proof I hadn’t plagiarized like turn it in scores, he refused to look at anything I had sent because he was so sure it was me. Since it happened I’ll admit my thoughts on plagiarism have changed a lot. Obviously it’s bad, it shows a lack of respect and taking credit for others peoples works is wrong and can have real world consequences beyond people just thinking you’re smarter than you are. But I feel like people go about punishing it in such a vicious way that doesn’t help anything at all. I think back to that assignment I was accused of plagiarizing, which was only like 200 words total, and wonder what happened to the guy who actually did plagiarize (and whether or not he even did plagiarize in the first place). At the college I go to plagiarizing punishments go from failing the class to being expelled, depending on how bad it was. For a 200 word assignment the kid probably wasn’t expelled or anything, but they likely failed the class and could have even lost scholarships. In my eyes a 200 word assignment isn’t worth that from a student standpoint, but the punishment also seems kinda extreme to me. I wasn’t even the one who plagiarized and it’s still affected me, making me overly anxious about assignments and the thought I might be accused again
If the COVID pandemic taught us anything, it's that it's not about the words you're saying; it's about if you have books behind you that some dying magazine can psychoanalyze for clicks while you're saying them.
I smelled something fishy when you started quoting Dr. Tobias Menteur (_menteur_ is the literal French word for "liar"), but I never suspected for a second you were actually taking us for a ride. Well played, Zoe! 👍
On the subject of that creator you suspect of plagiarism, while I think you're right to have some skepticism toward the idea of making a callout video, I think the big takeaway from Hbomberguy's video (and especially his asides about drama youtube) is that plagiarism isn't about the plagiarists themselves, and it especially isn't about the random nitwits who happen to find it. At the end of the day, plagiarism is about the people having their work stolen. As such, whether you choose to do anything with the information you've compiled or not, you should definitely inform the original creators that they've been robbed. If nothing else, they deserve a chance to take action themselves before a huge witch hunt kicks up on their behalf, especially since they might not even know that people are paying thousands of dollars for their work with all the money going into someone else's pockets.
The part of plagiarism that has always rubbed me the wrong way is the "squishy" aspect of it that you mentioned. When I was in my first semester of community college, I got reprimanded and nearly put on academic suspension for "plagiarism" because I didnt cite my sources correctly. At that point in time, I was very unaware of how to format my citations properly in a paper because my high school didnt prepare me for the standards of citation I would be subject to in college. I had zero intent of stealing the work of others and passing it off as my own, yet I was accused of plagiarism and nearly had my whole college career stained by it. The intent portion should be absolutely integral in accusations of plagiarism. Because some people, like myself, might not be aware of what is ethical and what is required of them when using someone elses work to support ones own.
I didn't include proper citations in my papers until I started writing my master's thesis, fortunately that was before universities started implementing computer assisted plagiarism control so nobody really cared, and it was in philosophy which has like 20+ different modes of citations depending on which classical philosopher you quote.
That's so awful. At the university I worked at first offenders would get a sit down interview going over the issues with their work and a warning and that was it. Only if a student was caught multiple times for the same sort of plagiarism would it warrant being put on their permanent record. And poor citations would cost you marks, not count as plagiarism. Copying a large amount of text counted as plagiarism regardless of whether it was cited properly or not.
At my university we were taught how to cite in the first week of classes. I think all universities should do that, primarily to teach people who might genuinely not know how to cite, but also to remove "I didn't know" as an excuse for actual plagiarism. And this wasn't a single slide in a presentation. They gave us guides, had us practice, and do a quiz. Not too much, but enough to check we understood, and we knew who we could ask if we wanted to check.
To be fair, before you tackle any course in varsity you are suppose to do a course on academic writing. It's usually the first course you do at most/if not all universities. So that no one can claim ignorance.
your perspective as an English teacher is the one i’ve been wanting to see on the internet’s current Plagiarism Zeitgeist because you understand the importance of responsible citation but also the fuzziness of literary originality. fantastic video, Zoe
I have always said to teachers who got annoyed with me for asking why: If I (/students) understood why we were doing what we were doing, many more of us would choose to do the task without further questioning, unless it was out of joy. A recent example: my printmaking lecturer asked us to etch for 10min then 20min, and to rinse the plate and look at it in between. I found this annoying as it was inefficient and served little obvious purpose to me. I asked her about it and she explained that practicing observation and regular checks of a process builds the habit that prevents major errors and a deep understanding of the material being worked with. I was happy with this and now check every time. Sometimes a why is the difference between contempt or corner cutting and genuine learning. (And yes ik I was being a bit silly in retrospect but it kinda just serves my point more tbh, annoying ppl also deserve to learn)
Another example from my own life (also a little silly): My dad would always be on me for not leaving things on top of the top-load freezer. I always kind of ignored it until I asked him why and he explained that extra weight/pressure would ruin the seal over time.
I think the point at the very end is important. Elementary/high school always gave very mixed messages about citations and plagiarism. "You must cite your claims." vs "This must be entirely your own work." I was always worried that if I cited something, I'd be admitting that the paper wasn't entirely my own work.
This is such an important point. Thanks for highlighting it. School and the internet’s obsession with originality is one of the big motivators that disincentivize proper attribution. I am a derivative artist through and through, but it took me a while to be ok with that because every time I started my explanation of my work with “it’s based on this property that I specifically did not create” the reaction was “when are you going to do something original?” despite me explicit adding unique elements (or at least elements from real life). It has made me consider trying to hide my influences or renaming characters that I changed the characterization of so it’s inspired by instead being the copyrighted work, but I still haven’t stopped citing my sources no matter how annoying my family can be about how openly derivative I am with my work.
I think a lot of people need to stop thinking the proper punishment for a plagiarist is "I need to personally ruin them on behalf of those they wronged." And instead look at it as a largely community driven repercussion, where individuals collectively remove the rewards the content thief is thriving on. I.E. canceling patreon, unsubscribing, watching/supporting the creators that they stole from. Too many people take it a step further and seek out excessive retribution when there are far more nuetral and even positive stances you can take that still "punish" the transgressor.
Plagiarists literally aren't punished at all (unless they're students & music artists, etc). That's the problem. Social reactions do eventually become codified, either due to trend or direct recommendations/ lobbying. I personally hope that RUclips requires all content creators to attribute all non-original sources for their content just like they do music.
I used to support Somerton, but immediately cancelled my donation to his Patreon within hours of the Hbomberguy video debut. In January, I began to support Alexander Avila since Somerton stole from this wonderful creator. I just hope that Somerton has the decency to remove my name from his list of patrons on his past videos. If he doesn't, I might give him a gentle nudge.
@@FIRING_BLIND I completely agree. I mean over the top behavior such as doxxing them or their family members, or harassing them on social media. That's too far.
I remember at University the plagiarism was rife. Mostly through ignorance and not paying attention to guidance. I was an absolute demon when it came to citations, I’d highlight every point in my assignments that came from a source and wouldn’t even put it in the document until it was in the reference list. My dissertation had over 200 sources with the bibliography being even longer, some people on my course had less than 20! For a dissertation??? Madness
And I’m not a super magical special student who’s any different to any other student. I was respectful of the work that came before me and loved my research area so much that they deserved the credit. I wove their points together with my research and allowed their work to back up my own. It was symbiotic and every time I struck a gold mine of new sources I’d get a rush of adrenaline. It felt good to cite, it felt good to get into their sources and their sources sources sources. I miss University so much 😭😭
@@lololpoppy I know, I try to be thorough and people act like there's some magic. I just care and put in the work. My system is similar to the one described in the video, in fact. Plagiarism can be confusing, but avoiding it is so easy, there's a format, there's clear guidance, when in doubt you can just do it. It's such an easy thing to get (more or less) right. Who wouldn't want that easy win?
I'm a history student, and any time I am quoting someone the first thing I do is throw quote marks around the line itself and immediately add a footnote; not necessarily a formal footnote in the full Chicago style, just a quick 'author, page number' so I can go back and put the full citation back in later. I do the same with citing someone's argument in my own words, even if I later decide that a footnote isn't necessary for a particular example (i.e., having already done so in an earlier line of mine and so another footnote would be redundant), it's just SO MUCH BETTER and SO MUCH EASIER to have citations ready to go the instant I am citing someone else's work.
Footnotes are king. Easy to use, and other disciplines lack the joy of seeing a page that's 50% footnote, reading the footnote, and finding it continues on and takes up half the next page as well.
I think having to use Chicago style is so beneficial because you HAVE to stay ontop of all the information as you go otherwise it’s a mine field (I’m art history so have the chaos of both literary and visual sources of all kinds). I find my friends in the sciences who haven’t had to do Chicago are often the ones who struggle because it’s easier to be lax with the other ref styles
I didn't realise that some people write and then cite later on, I've always done citations as I write, like (Author Surname, Year) for research papers after the cited text
Same. Don’t know if the German style is similar but when I started a essay for university the document was footnotes before everything else. In average I only had to add 1-2 sources after writing the whole thing (mostly facts I researched while writing). But I also think that history is quite strict how to cite. Also studied literature and proofread other essays and they’re often laid back in comparison to history.
You touched upon a critical point: the betrayal of distrust that is felt by the viewer can spread to other areas of their lives, making the distrust in people a way of viewing the world. What was once about a stranger who uploads videos you like, infects the way you view people in general, including family and friends. As a person with BPD, this is often the case for me. These scandals just reinforce my tendency to distrust everyone I know.
@@LeopardGeckoful yes we do - the people who he actually harmed can issue dmca takedowns or send cease and disaster letters. Mob justice isn't justice.
@@LeopardGeckoful I think not supporting them and spreading the word to fans without making endless videos about their reactions and apologies would be good. This isn’t meant to be sarcastic either btw. I see like ten videos re: james somerton, mostly from people not even involved with him, and it’s like, don’t make this a “lolcow” thing.
i definitely always put my sources on-screen when i cite them, BUT i also sometimes HAVE to use an external google doc for sources solely because there's a character limit on the description box. usually i try to put my source links in the description box itself, but for a REALLY long video like my recent gamergate video, i had 118 sources for that, and the description box character limit cut me off LOL. so i agree with you for the most part! thanks for this!
Rhonda Santis... I did a double-take at that name; the researcher is not the governor of Florida. Lol. Edit: the researcher is not real. How could you do this to me?!
Now I have to wonder whether you privately called out that plagiarising creator you found and asked them to stop or whether they'll continue to steal and get away with it
I recommend that anyone who thinks Aranock using "The Editor" is plagiarism go and watch TomSka & Friends' "Guide to Plagiarism (The Somerton Scale)". It comes out somewhere between level 1 (Parallel thinking) to level 3 (Inspiration), i.e. well into the safe zone.
Yess, I found the TomSka vid myself just a few days ago! It was SOOOOO helpful in parsing the discourse, because my brain likes spectrums a lot better than black-and-white boxes. (I also didn't know he MADE the asdfmovie's, and now I know who to credit for those!)
That is a pretty important video in the discourse. In the example of "the editor", that's like someone accusing Metallica of plagiarising The Beatles because both these bands have 2 guitarists, a bassist and a drummer. It's device-employment. Devices can be metaphorical or physical tools, but can't be copyrighted, because that would limit creativity too much. If devices were copyrightable or so protected, no one would be allowed to use a paint-brush anymore, or make a story about a rebelious young person because that plagiarises something that was done that way before.
@@guidokreeuseler9566 I agree completely. Or in another comparison, it'd be like a romance author writing about a handsome billionaire. It also, I think, weakens the conversation against people who are stripmining other people's content to compare the two things and call them both "plagiarism", because if you want that accusation to have meaningful impact, you have to preserve the definition.
I know this is tooting my own horn, but when you mentioned the first reference I thought "this paper seems interesting" and paused the video to look it up... I didn't find anything, obviously, but assumed it was just an error on my part or something, because I had trust in you as a creator
Citation rules can be confusing but especially outside of schools you just need enough information to actually find the source. So author's name, title, and a permalink (or link with access date) or book version is usually good enough
I hope you did end up talking to that anonymous creator at least. The problem is that intellectual theft is often thought of as victimless, but when people's livings are defined by people attributing ideas to them and paying them via patreon or memberships, creators really should know better. At the very least that anonymous creator should apologize offline, if not compensate whoever they stole from.
Yeah that part made me feel a bit uncomfortable, not because I'd want to go and harass the creator but because I'd want to know if I were supporting someone who was plagiarizing so that I can go give my support to the person who actually did the work. Especially given how often the original authors have much smaller platforms and quite frankly need the material support a lot more.
I thought that the “plot twist” there was going to be discovering that the author of the paper was actually the youtuber in question but they didn’t have their real name on their channel so it looked like they plagiarized it. But that’s probably not the case if they just didn’t cite anything ever
@@uncurled520You could always check yourself using similar methods i.e pasting video quotes into Google as a quotation to see if it comes up with anything using the same exact words.
I get why you did it, but nothing erodes trust in the community quite like saying "There is a chronic plagiarist you might watch. I won't tell you who." 😅
Yeah... I can see why she didn't want to pull the trigger on this, espectically in context of the broader point she's making here. But the idea that I might unknowingly be supporting a creator who has this iissue doesn't sit that well with me either.
I feel the best case if Zoe found a plagiarist is to go to those affected and ask what they’d want done. In the booktok community, Cait Corrain ruined her own career by targeting other authors of color and refusing their multiple attempts to privately deal with the situation. It was only then that Xiran Zhao went public. I think giving that power to those affected is a much better step than “well I found a plagiarist but something bad could happen if they’re exposed so I will keep their secret”
She did provide clues; watch out for someone who puts their sources behind a paywall, for example. And I imagine she took some action behind the scenes, as well.
Yeah idk it was weird for me that she was just like "A popular video essayist with many subscribers is a plagiarist but...I felt too good about exposing them so now I won't?" Like. I actually would very much like to make sure I'm not supporting them? I hope she contacted the people who were plagiarised
I don't often write 'important' comments. I tend to just meme, but this video got me thinking. I as a severely neurodivergent person always felt that avoiding plagiarism via citation was a 'required evil'. It was a enormous amount of work to keep the citations flowing, while forming original ideas around them. It takes videos like this to get me to think about it on a deeper level. I like to think my foundational control of language is fairly strong, but I found myself falling behind because of the weight of citations. I could do the work, but I found myself failing to grasp a good work flow. The lack of that workflow eventually crippled my ability to be creative. This ultimately came to a head in college writing class, where I fell behind due to a combination of factors, and I found my work looking more like Plagerism. I eventually stopped, failed the class, and didn't submit my work. I realized that I was teetering dangerously close to a ledge, I could jump and hope I made it through the class, or I could bite the bullet. I chose the latter. I'm retaking that class now for those concerned about my continued education. I plan on being a therapist. I've done a lot of speedrunning in my time, so much so that I've dedicated thousands of hours to mastering obscure fights/games. When I saw a high profile Monster Hunter Blindfolded cheating scandal my blood boiled, because I understood the amount of work required to actually achieve that feat. I now, thanks to videos like this, recognize the amount of work required to write well and with an eye to academic integrity. I still struggle obviously. I am however failing upwards and rather proud of that fact. This video got my mind chewing on my own processes and my own perspectives on trust, or even skill. I let myself grow complacent and it took a pretty big jolt to get me to unstick from that position. This was a very long winded neurodivergent way of saying. Cheers, you got me to think and that is worth more than I'll ever be able to articulate with my command of the English language. (Edited to fix a typo I found. Figured straight up horrible spelling on the first line was in poor taste on an English teachers video.)
If it makes you feel better, most of the papers that I end up reading in my field of study have citations on almost every sentence, sometimes multiple per sentence. Oftentimes, this stiff is used to frame original ideas which will come much later. The idea isn't to form original ideas around cited works, it's to use those works to build up to and frame and support an original idea. And the original idea doesn't need to be big for it to be significant. So to start of with, maybe go "OK so this is my original idea" and then go "so and so says this, and someone else says that which supports the idea" for example "angler fish and some types of octopus are pretty similar. Angler fish school (1) so do some kinds of octopus (2). Plus they're about the same size (3) and get eaten by some of the same predators (4)." (For the record, this is completely fake. There are some similarities between angler fish and octopus, but that is the limit of the truth of this example as far as I'm aware). So the original idea isn't being formed around cited works, but instead being supported by and framed by cited works. Idk if that will help, but as someone who is pretty neurodivergent myself, sometimes reframing how you go about writing something and why you do it makes it a lot easier.
I'd like to know if somebody I'm watching is plagiarizing so I can decide whether to continue to give clicks or not. There's a difference between informing the audience and a "take down piece"
Completely agreed. There's a point to be made about the way in which plagiarism is exposed, but knowingly protecting plagiarism by not revealing it when one notices it is irresponsible and condones it imo...
I never really liked the sudden burst of people jumping at the chance to lynch anyone for perceived plagiarism or really any wrongdoing. It never tends to feel honest, it just feels like people seeking retribution for self satisfaction and moral superiority.
Yeah, one thing that occurred to me when discussing the "why" of these recent public plagiarist floggings is that for better or for worse, I think humans in our society are itching to find a villain to take down, and plagiarism looks like a transgression for which we're "allowed" to take the gloves off. Nasty stuff.
I can't have been the only person who heard you say "RUclips channels with more subscribers are found to be of higher quality" and immediately think of those five second craft channels, and think that can't possibly be true...
I was so close to clicking out in the first 5 minutes going, "Wow, this doesn't feel like a Zoe Bee video. What happened to her? And how unfortunate of a name is Rhonda Santis?" This was a fun video, and even though my burning desire for retribution wants to know who... I think you helped remind me to tap into my empathy more regularly. Thanks, Zoe. "Help-Im-A-Real-Lawyer" giving off real pinnocch vibes
My wife and I started a pretty small channel (not the one I'm currently commenting with) a couple years ago relating to media theory in games and anime, and I think we came up with a pretty decent format for citations. - Main citations are cited when they are quoted during the video and at the end of a video. - Citations for supplementary material (games, images, clips) are displayed on the top left corner of the screen, and at the end of a video. - Music is also cited at the end of the video in order of when they are played, even music from games. Everyone deserves credit.
Thank you for this! Every video of quality should have a footprint for others to follow and benefit from so they can continue their learning. Even if it's just to look up sweet jams.
I think that the institutional education approach to citation fails everyone. We concentrate so much on the essay needing x amount of citations, and the formula for how you write out the citation, that the actual value of citing sources loses meaning. Losing points on a 3000 word essay because you put a comma in the wrong place in your appendix doesn't enforce the moral, ethical, and educational value of citation, it just makes citation feel like punishment.
i agree on a whole with some of what you said, and you're well spoken, but some of these parts just don't add up for me. i hope you reached out to that Nameless RUclipsr in private, and I'm not saying you should have made a huge blowup of their spot, but it doesn't sit right with me to keep something like that from the audience of that creator. those people have the right to make an informed decision about who they're watching/donating to/etc, and the people who have their content stolen from deserve to have the credit. I just don't like how "we need to hold people accountable" sounds when there's no evidence to suggest that you held the person you uncovered accountable.
Yeah my assumption is that Zoe followed up with the creator privately, but didn't bring that up in the video for some reason. I guess if something more identifiable happened (like someone Zoe had told had told the creator, and the creator did an apology to their audience - or they were publicly called out by someone else) Zoe might not have wanted to mention the follow-up. But I feel like there would be a vague way to confirm it had been followed up on and the creator is at least aware of the issue.
@@veelogation3890 yeah exactly. I was waiting for a "I reached out to the person" at the end when she was talking about steps that can be taken and she brought up talking to the creator privately. I understand not wanting to invite a mob, though. I didn't join in on the crusade against James Somerton, but I did watch him before HBomb's video and haven't since so that's the angle I'm coming from. it's a tricky thing to navigate, because once something is out you can't control how people react and unfortunately a lot of people don't just silently unsub and move on
This was my thought too. The problem that Zoe didn't seem to bring up is that some of the creators mentioned in H.Bomb's videos were told that they were caught plagiarizing, usually in comments, and one of their immediate reactions was to hide all evidence that they had been called out and/or to try and hide it better. The whole point of H.Bomb's video was that these people steal their words because they don't respect the source enough to properly cite it and they don't care about the ideas being said, just that it makes them money.
Whats funny is that last night was when I FINALLY watched the hbomberman and ToddintheShadows’ video after ignoring it for about a few months. This was way too well timed to add to my list.
@ville__ Non-binary people are the physical manifestation of sensory perception. And in the same sense that when your senses are overloaded in any particular way (whether they're overloaded with pleasure or overloaded with pain), if your senses keep receiving that same stimulus over and over, you are not going to have as strong of a reaction to that same stimulus.
I'm definitely not sold on the overwhelming reliance on "just educate them, guise!!! :)" Like, yes, that works on people who don't *know* why plagiarism is bad, but it also has literally no effect on people who don't *care.* Taking Somerton as an example, he definitely knew what he was doing and that it was harmful - in fact, he gave his fans harassment targets when people called him out before. To people who steal on purpose, even after it's brought to their attention, the reason is generally pretty clear: they simply care more about fame and/or money.
My primary response to those kinds of people is that they'll typically act the same regardless of the system, so we can't hold the system as failing just because it can't fix an unfixable situation. She didn't mention this, but from what I understand there's a similar issue in finance where super high punishments like very large fines don't actually change behavior but actually increasing the likelihood of being caught even with small punishments. So, by educating more people about plagiarism and providing tools on how to identify it, I think that Ms. Bee is providing a solution we have reason to believe would make a difference.
Something I came aross in college was that when plagerism was brought up, it was framed as if students were already plagerising, treating all students as guilty untill proven innocent. Some of my classmates were second-guessing themselves on if they'd accidentially plagerised, which lead to unneeded stress. We couldn't use a plagerism checker ourselves, while lecurers could check the final essays, by which time it would be too late, the student would be disaplined and couldn't fix any issues. I can imagine it could even have driven some students to plagerise anyway, as if lecturers view students as already being dishonest, then they might as well get the benefit out of it. Since ChatGPT has been released there's been more plagerism by an order of magnitude in some colleges. Which is concerning, because what happens when AI models can hide plagerism better, allowing both ease of access and ease of obfuscation.
Those plagiarism checkers can be so stressful for students. Students did see the results of the plagiarism checker at our institution but it usually had a lot of false flags. We would do a quick check over what the plagiarism checker found and most of what it found was fine/innocuous. Like if they had to describe a simple concept and there were only so many ways to do that, or the axes of a graph getting flagged. Whenever someone had 90%+ of their work flagged for plagiarism it turned out this was their second submission of the same work through the checker and they were 'plagiarising' themself. We always emphasised to students that the plagiarism checker rating was not at all definitive, especially since the more texts (eg. previous students' work) it has the higher the percentage will get. I was just thinking it might be better not to show students the results since they might panic and think they had to change their work when they didn't. But that's only if your educators aren't misusing the tool. And I never get why people think they'll get good results by treating people like they're already doing things wrong. Especially with students, assuming the best/benefit of the doubt often models to students what being a good student requires and that it feels good.
I really hope you've spoken with the people who were affected by the plagiarism of the anonymous creator. I feel like that's the most moral thing to do. People don't deserve to have their livelihoods ruined, but creators also don't deserve to have their work exploited. I think the right thing to do is to let the original creators in the know and let them deal with the situation.
I would like to personally thank Desmond for his purring during the video, it really helped keep me grounded on a topic that can get me really heated, so Thanks Desmond! And thanks Zoe for being a cool head in a chaos circus.
My dad is a university professor and last year he had to put a presentation together on how to paraphrase and cite, because a lot of his students are international students coming from education systems that rewarded just parroting the textbook. So they literally just didn’t know how to avoid plagiarism and how to isolate the relevant information
“They don’t know how to avoid plagiarism”, no, what they don’t know is (presumably, you sound very USian) USian academia’s preferred citation and writing practices. Which is not the end all be all objectively correct way of doing things. Not by a long shot, in fact.
@@gkcadadr I’m Australian lmao, Americans say “college”. And from what I heard from dad, these students genuinely learned to parrot their textbooks, they were marked down for changing the words up at all in school, so they needed to learn paraphrasing in uni to get good at, not just academic writing, but articulating original thought in general
@@voidify3 Yeah it really happens. One thing I quickly realized after the hbomberguy video released was that… I had been very much on the line of plagiarism with the vast majority of my essays throughout elementary school, middle school and early high school. I’m in late high school right now and never really thought about it because I was taught to simply find a source and paraphrase it when I was learning to write essays in Elementary School. Which sounds fine- but it was one source and it was never any of my original ideas. Just a mixed up bowl of one or two sources to get a good grade. My writing style was fine so I managed to get good grades this way. My alternative high school I go to now doesn’t really do to many essays and none of my schools thought to check for this kind of thing. I feel kinda stupid for not realizing how unoriginal and bad of a way this was to write my essays. I’m very glad I never posted any of the video essays that I had written. And I’m very glad about this RUclips storm because I probably would have continued this way into college unless a teacher had caught it. I’ve written a few new essays this year for school since learning about this massive blunder of mine, and I’ve realized that it’s also far more satisfying and I feel much prouder of the essays I write. I also remember the essay I actually wrote far more. And my teacher said she was very proud of my writing abilities, which despite the grades I had gotten before, was never something that had happened. So I think it’s also very possible for those born in the US, to have this issue as well. Of course I think if this mistake is not realized by the time a person is going to university that’s probably on them- and honestly it’s on me for not realizing earlier since I very much have unrestricted access to the internet. But I think it’s very much worth pointing out bad writing education in schools in the US. Because I’ve had other writing issues growing up BECAUSE of my schooling. Although a lot of them are a lot less serious, such as telling me I was NEVER allowed to use the words said or say, or that I should never write in certain ways that could be a valid artistic choice.
Really enjoyed the video, but I do question the tip you bring up around 54:40. Bad faith actors like Somerton have historically used polite and good faith criticism as a vector to direct followers in harassment campaigns. It seems worth mentioning this.
I'm actually relieved! I put this video on in the back while folding laundry. I was just thinking "Man, this is a lot of bad takes in a row!" Then you dropped the source Rhonda Santis and I finally got it.
@@tarastargaze3833 it's those darn Big Horse elitist shills that did it I tell you, they don't want us to realise horses aren't real nor do they want us to giggle at funny numbers. You can't do anything anymore these days, people are so sensitive!
I think I know the creator that you are talking about. I wrote a comment to them about their sources being behind a paywall and they went off on me. Personally, I do not trust any creator who tries to get me to pay more for their sources. I do think the Google docs is not a bad idea if they also made a Google folder that had all the source documents in it. I hate the fact that academic journals are not free. Knowledge belongs to the people.
Wow! I took your advice to heart Zoe, and _actually_ read the one of the articles you cited in the description ("Making the Hard Choice: Community Safety and Moral Purity" - Dr. Robias Menteur, New York Times). I must say, it TOTALLY changed my entire outlook on plagiarism, internet culture as a whole, and - dare I say - my _entire_ life! I STRONGLY recommend that anyone reading this comment scroll back up to the description, and click on the link.
@@The_pillow_fort By "TRAITOR", don't you _actually_ mean: "OMG, I completely second this comment and I couldn't agree more. Zoe eloquently explains the community benefit of us commenters walking the walk & checking out her sources, but reading this article was really its own reward anyway - so scroll up, and give it a read." 🤫
I havent watched yet, when I do I will probably have a more coherent statement on the content of the work, but thank you for actually crediting me for my work. People very rarely do, sometimes even the people I did the work for. I know you know how much I care about integrity on that topic so its appreciated. Its very tiring having my contributions always downplayed and ignored by most people.
I understood from the start that using a similar rhetorical device is not the same thing as "stealing" an idea. It's the same as authors using different voices (1st person, 2nd person, omniscient) to set the tone for their novels/stories. I never understood why some people would latch onto that as being a problematic thing.
Claudine Gay's "plagiarism" was more about career assassination than actual plagiarism. The Guardian has an article by Andrew Lawrence that discussed the severity of her "crime." not even close to Somerton-level "In some works, Gay credits a source in the wrong sentence. In others, she borrows language that even those who were ostensibly plagiarized accept as common phrasing within their field of study. 'I am not at all concerned about the passages,' said the political science professor David Canon, whose work the Washington Free Beacon accused Gay of plagiarizing. 'This isn’t even close to an example of academic plagiarism.'" (note: I'm posting this comment at just after the 11 minute mark. if you get into this, I haven't gotten there yet.) Edit: changed "Maxine Gay" to "Claudine Gay." not sure how I messed that up; thank you @conormclaughlin5811
Yeah.. also, imo it's worth mentioning that it was a pseudoscandal fabricated by Christopher Rufo, and almost all the mainstream media fell for it completely without really fact-checking. Michael Hobbes did a complete analysis of the 46 plagiarism accusations only 2 plausibly crossed the ethical line but only barely, because it was a matter of paraphrasing (with attribution) rather than plagiarism, which is indifferent for most academics. It's all laid out on a bonus episode of his podcast If Books Could Kill.
Absolutely. The motivations were clearly wanting to shut down any criticism and dissenting opinions more than anything. Really disgusting but I am glad the door swung back in their faces.
This. Though it is Claudine, not Maxine. And as I continued to watch the video I kept thinking about how important this exact kind of correction is because it would be really easy for someone to point to all of the societal factors as being obvious signs that Dr. Gay did this for all of these reasons. Which is especially dangerous when these sorts of things are said about Black Women who already are viewed as suspicious and assumed to be incompetant.
One issue with your suggestions is that in the case of James Somerton when their plagiarism was pointed out to them by people with less or no power in comparison to them they attacked them. When someone is knowingly plagiarizing others to make a living it is in their interest to go into fight, flight, freeze, or faun defense mechanism. I don't have a solution as I also don't like online mobbing but politely pointing out discrepancy just doesn't work. And if a public person decides to turn their audience on you as a non-public person that can be very mentally taxing.
WAIT I just realised that the secondary effect of those early citations is that we all end up accidentally getting practice following the tips you've given about how to communicate about these things more healthily, and that is pretty baller. Kudos.
one thing that always stressed me out when writing papers in school was accidental plagerism. also i always found keeping track of and properly formatting sources always threw me off my writing momentum when i did get into the paper proper. you had some interesting tips on workflow. thank you.
Make sure to list Zoe Bee as a source DEEP in the description below 124 links to your different social medias and promos and just list the name of the channel with no links to the video or even the channel itself
I once got in "trouble" at school for over citing works. I was so worried about plagiarism, as they made a HUGE song and dance about it in year 9, that I cited teachers if they'd been the one to mention the topic in class, and even Shakespeare lines that are now just common phases. Was a right royal mess.
Hey, I for one appreciate this video because while I greedily devoured mr. bomberguy's 4h takedown of internet plagiarists, I was craving a sincere "why does this happen and what can we do to disincentivize this behavior?" video (because it doesnt occur in a vacuum). This hit the spot. Now: This essay provides a good backdrop for me to explain something that I've had a difficult time wrapping my head around, which is that I sincerely don't understand why someone would plagiarize. Your narrative of how you avoid "accidentally" plagiarizing crystallized it for me--it's because for me, I really value what others have written on a topic, and I respect the hell out of anyone who has done the hard work of finding and reading other people's words on a topic. Why would you want to _hide_ that? It's a badge of honor! For me, it's maybe just as valuable to know and understand what others have said as it is to have said those things yourself. Hell, I _want_ to show off whose ideas I've read. Then: I realize my whole process for doing lit reviews reflects this mindset. I create a separate document where I list every source and copy/paste highlighted excerpts from that source as I read it. I don't write anything original in that document, it's just a way for me to collect information. But for me, this is because I know I will forget who said what, and this gives me a safety net so I don't lose it all. As a sidenote, pick up a citation manager if you're worried about this or think it's hard. Go check out Zotero, it's free and has a Chrome addon that lets you add basically anything in a browser tab to your library with one click. Super convenient and a great skill to learn.
I’m glad you wrote the above: I both tend to keep notes of my own thoughts and to do a fair amount of writing in longhand, but VERY FORTUNATELY I am also almost preternaturally lazy … so whenever I need to cite anything, or to reference reams of text, I resort to digital tools - screenshots, copy-and-paste, embedded files - which means today it would be basically impossible for me to forget where some length of text originated from. Now, as to why someone would plagiarize deliberately - outside of the pressures of modern-day higher education or under fear of being fired or something - I’m with you; right now it’s hard for me to imagine being in those shoes. But unless it’s a scenario of purely personal gain - like the online bozos lazily copying videos shot-for-shot and word-for-word because TikTok will do NOTHING about it, ever - then it’s also hard not to feel a twinge of sympathy. Young adulthood is no breeze. Homelessness sucks. Vulnerability is punished, so one manufactures a façade just to retain some control over one’s fragile and eroding personhood. What may seem to others unforgivable may have seemed to the desperate - tired, scared, given bad information and on the brink of breaking - like the only reasonable last-ditch option. “IN CASE OF EMERGENCY BREAK RULES.” My first college kinda sucked: I won’t belabor all the ways it sucked, but to boost its numbers it enrolled all kinds of kids who had little chance of succeeding at higher education unaided … and then, rather than direct a CENT towards aiding those students, it bought real estate and directed funds towards foggy projects which always seemed to somehow benefit the family of one trustee or another, and so on. In a school which focused heavily on reading ENORMOUS lengths of English-language texts and on writing pages and pages of essays, a few students barely even spoke a word of English - but they brought in more grant money, it seems, so there they were: privyet, tovarishch! So when some of these students produced letter-perfect essays, when mere days before they’d barely been able to comprehend the book’s title, the culture which developed around such events was one of looking the other way: they had it hard enough, we all had it hard at that school … so we were all in it together. (Usually. Often. There were also quite horrible, notable, scarring exceptions. Suffice it to say, few competent students remained there longer than two years.) I’m not suggesting looking the other way is always the answer. Again, there are the TikTok plagiarists, and no one placed pressure on James Somerton other than himself, no one held a gun to his head and told him “Live high off the hog or else,” no one made him quit his day job and buy expensive cameras and finance the whole operation by not only stealing, but by then badly misrepresenting most of what he’d stolen. But we should learn to distinguish between those times when someone is acting maliciously, selfishly, and/or thoughtlessly, and those times when someone has been through some shit, and is tired, and feels utterly alone, and literally cannot conceive another way not to lose what’s left of their life. We all flee bad situations and walk into new ones thinking “Here comes my happy life!” and oftentimes, a few short years later, more bruised and battered than before but now trying more desperately to hold it together, the shell-shocked thought occurs: “I tried so fucking hard, I really fucking tried…” We never really know what people have been through. And sometimes we never will: in U.S. society, the first thing people who seek help often learn is “Telling makes it worse, telling always makes it worse.” So being a little nicer is always an option. We don’t need to let criminals off the hook but … making a bloodsport out of “punishing them what’s got it coming,” especially when the dread malefactors are basically powerless, is only recreating and perpetuating the dominant ideology underpinning our toxic economic system - and nobody needs that!! [To be clear: not countering anything you wrote, just riffing off of and expanding upon it.]
Desmond's presence and occasional interruptions enhance my enjoyment of your videos. It's a nod to the fact that 1. yes, video essays aren't filmed in one continuous take, and 2. many people find it more pleasing when a video's atmosphere is dynamic rather than static. I look forward to many more episodes with feline supervision and amusing bloopers at the end.
47:00 I remember an Innuendo Studios video (I Hate Mondays) that explained why some people still prefer punitive solutions even if they don't actually reduce plagiarism. It's not about actually solving the problem, it's about adopting the correct moral stance about who should be punished for the problem, because the solutions that would actually deal with the problem are _too disruptive to the status quo._ Those people take the first seven minutes of your video literally because it gives them a semblance of _power_ over others, the perceived "wrongdoers", power that they would not have under the more constructive solution. They would claim that examining the reasons that people plagiarize is a complete waste of time, because we don't need to know why it's bad to know that people need to suffer for doing it.
It’s a little tangential, but I’ll add, relating to people opting for punishment rather than for examining the system: child-beating, spanking, “corporal punishment” in general, is NOT something which has historically or presently been implemented by the majority of the uppermost ruling classes … in fact, the lower down the socio-economic scale a group now is or has been historically, the more likely they are or have been to beat their kids. And the REASON for this is kinda grimly interesting: in feudal, monarchic, and slave-holding societies, anyone of a higher rank could punish the children of anyone of a lower rank for misbehaving or even just for looking at their “betters” the wrong way - which could even, and not unusually, end in the death of that child … which was of course seen by the “law” as justified. Child-beating seems to have arisen among the subaltern classes as a way of impressing upon their children - literally, in the sense of bruises and welts - the prevalent ideology imposed by the rulers, basically the social relations of production. So child punishment, including quite horrible punishment, was developed among the subaltern classes as a way both of preventing worse fates from befalling one another, i.e. preventing their being outright murdered by the ruling classes - but also, as a way of never having to outright confront the rulers or the system perpetuating the unjust hierarchy. And arguably, gruesome punishments overall were developed this way: by the subaltern classes internalizing the ideology keeping them down, and then brutally enforcing upon one another the performance of this ideology, thus perpetuating it. We may not be so far off from our forebears, continuing to internalize the prevalent ideology rather than examining it, and then helping to perpetuate it by meting out on one another the most horrible, inhumane punishments, sometimes even followed by gloating over it.
RUclips must have the ability to check this on their end. If they can fingerprint a song, they can check the text people use in their videos and then flag it.
I was half-listening while doing chores, as I do with every RUclips video, and was like "It sounds legit", until the quote from Rhonda Santis. I did a double take and only then realize you were fooling us. Great way to get my full attention. Chores will be postponed for another 50 minutes, while I finish watching the video.
I really appreciate your more empathetic approach towards this issue. A lot of the discourse in the past two months acts like those who plagiarize are villains looking to intentionally steal other people's work. I’m sure that’s occasionally the intention of some creators (Somerton himself seemed to go out of the way to erase those he stole from), but it’d be nice to show at least a little bit of grace towards those who may have just plagiarized unintentionally.
The sudden PURRRRRRRR sounds at around 37:18 at first seemed like an ominous aesthetic choice. Then I tabbed back in to the video and saw the cat near the mic lmao
Plagiarism became a very hot topic in my country, Norway, of all places, this year. It was revealed that Mrs. Sandra Borch, a prominent cabinet minister in the Ministry of Education, had done a plagiarism in her master's thesis back in 2014. She stepped down immediately from her post. At the same time, it was also revealed that Mrs. Ingvild Kjerkol, the Minister of Health, had done a plagiarism in her master's thesis from 2021. She is denying the severity of the allegations, and is still in office as of now. This latter case is the far more interesting. Why did she, a woman in her late 40's with over a decade in office, feel it necessary to get a master's degree? This sparked a debate over the nature of a master's degree, with "Master's degree disease" or "Master's degree mania" (Norwegian: "mastersyken") probably becoming the neologism of the year. UPDATE: on the 12th of April, Mrs. Kjerkol's master's thesis was revoked/annulled (or whatever the proper term is) due to plagiarism, and Prime Minister Støre forced her to step down from her post. This is the 8th Minister in 2 years who has had to step down due to scandal. Only two of these were concerning plagiarism in their theses; the other six cases were sexual misconduct, insider trading, nepotism, tax evasion.
"sexual misconduct, insider trading, nepotism, tax evasion" soooo everything the American Republican front-runner for President openly brags about doing...
"What if their trust had been built on lies and false promises?" This is why I get so confused when people say "just give Somerton another chance!" Another chance... to do what? What was he bringing to the table? It's not like he lied about his qualifications and became a world-class doctor or something-he didn't actually... do the stuff.
I'm actually looking that up and can't find anything on that study or that researcher, but "Rhonda Santis" was apparently a name used to mock (?) him. Edit: Nevermind I read some other comments and it seems to be intentional.
@@Kriae Did you watch the video? You don't need to read the comments to know that it wasn't a real study or researcher. inb4 "Ah, you're right! You don't need to read the comments to know if it was a real study or researcher, as the video states it is (sic) a real study by a real researcher! Thanks for the clarification! Is there anything else you need?"
i think a huge part of the definition that’s missing is “a pattern of behavior”. as was pointed out, mistakes happen, people are imperfect, etc. that’s why the known recent plagiarists are so egregious. there isn’t just a singular instance of a missed citation, but a clear pattern of using the work of others without proper attribution. for people who aren’t familiar with academic citation, but who care about doing ethical work, explaining how to clearly cite things is going to be appreciated. meanwhile, plagiarists do not want to take accountability. even if they admit a mistake was made, they shut down further discussion of the issue and continue to do the unethical behavior. that’s how i identify plagiarism, at least. i don’t expect College Thesis Level citations from my free entertainment, but i should at least theoretically be able to trace the ‘idea road map’ a creator took when making a video. it’s also why i’m always fine waiting six months+ for my favorite video essayists. it’s hard work researching and writing! it takes so long! that anyone can do it in a year let alone a couple times a month boggles the mind.
I'm grateful your channel is taking an active role in establishing norms and standards among this community of video essayists. This sort of decentralized coordination is crucial for cultivating a thriving space of intellectual engagement. Otherwise it would slide into aesthetically captivating misinformation, like so much online "content" has in recent years
I get the point of not wanting to stir unnecessary things up, but surely something was done to address the anonymous plagiarist in the video? Did you contact them? Do their viewers know that the ideas were not theirs? Are they still profiting from the plagiarism? Whatever consequences there may be, I think it's infinitely more important to bring the truth to light
Yeah this is what I was thinking... did she discover an essay youtuber with many subscribers was stealing peoples work and lying to their audience and choose not to do anything about it because...it felt too good??
Yeah, I really think she should say something when she feels prepared to. If someone else were in her position, she'd want them to speak up! It's the right thing to do.
There is always a form of accountability where we can also inform people who have been CONSISTENTLY stolen from (for videos and creators that use total works or books that stuff) so that maybe the creator has to face the person they stole from and have to talk about it. It humanizes the people behind the work we consume, and it also makes plagiarists describe their reasons for doing so. It doesn’t have to be “punishing,” but it does have to be a productive conversation. It might not be perfect and this isn’t meant to put the onus on the people being stolen from, but if they want to reach out, I think they should be informed.
53:30 "If you use your platform to exploit others, you don't deserve that platform." But we have no way of taking a platform away from a content creator. RUclips does have that power, but they don't use it. The only tool available to the audience is public awareness and shaming (not harassing) that content creator into changing their behavior. Systemically, we can't enforce reform on here. So we must reduce the harm, instead. With the above in mind, I feel that not outing plagiarists is bad. In my opinion, you should reach out the anonymous plagiarist and tell them they must remove their content or go public. If they don't, please identify them. I don't think doing nothing with the information is moral, as it allows the deception to continue. If they admit to it, change their behavior, and don't do it again, best result achieved! But intentional plagiarism tends to be a serial offense, because if you don't get caught once... well why not do it again? In reference to a part of Hbomberguys video: If you catch them once, odds are they rolled those dice a few times before getting caught.
yep drama as last resort only is ther , and working, because youtube doesnt care if you dont make any kind of drama for attention. To be clear witchhunts bad, thats literally what hbomb did say not to do, harass, and god witchhunts are bad. But still drama works on social media as social media if all else fails. Like with harassments and assaults, if all avenues are cut, media drama can punish somewhat. But still its just a reality to get attention, and of couse should be used responsible, but is also a tool, that exists, where youtube else fails usually. Or like a lot sexual asaulter are made in social media a point, because else ther is no justice. With like abuses of power, social media is just a viable way if all fails.
Also, as a viewer and potential consumer of the content in question, I want to know if I’m watching a plagiarist???? So I don’t get brainrot??? I get that there are valid concerns about harassment but I would like to know, check for myself, and then never think about it again.
Practice critical thinking and stay informed on breaking news by subscribing through my link ground.news/zoebee to receive 30% off the Vantage Subscription which is about $5/month for unlimited access to all the features needed to improve your news consumption habits.
Don't tell me what to do!
Nearly 300,000 subscribers, on the 27th of February 2021 you had 127.
@@marywilson8119 And I am forever thankful and absolutely floored 🙏
Maybe you should learn some critical thinking. The creators that are allowed to succeed are the most easy to monetize not the most credible.
@@patrickryan7829 you should rewatch the video. to the end this time, it'll help.
A problem is that schools teach citation as this thing you have to do so you don't get in trouble, rather than something you provide the audience with to help them better understand your content.
Once I realized this, the quality of my citations improved so much. I'm of the belief that the sources should be in the video itself when possible, because the description is not always easily accessible for people watching on TVs or other platforms.
Tom Ska also had a good take on plagiarism. Not all plagiarism is the same. He came up with different tiers and talked about the gray area between plagiarism and inspiration. Definitely worth a watch.
I only got this once I started reading some (older) philosophy / sociology with extremely lackluster original citations but very trough translators notes attempting to fix that
Thank you for saying this, making the distinction between punitive forced compliance and actually mapping out thought!
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's such a good thought!
We absolutely DESPISE doing citations exactly for that reason of *it's that thing you HAVE to do but that most people don't pay attention to anyway and is utterly pointless 😒*
Treating it as something that could help people understand what we're saying and where we're coming from sounds like a way better frame of mind.
Plus it might help us use citations in a way that would be more helpful to people rather than just being *the footnotes section no one reads*
That's something that I think education struggles with conveying to students in general, to be honest! The "why" is so important, and unfortunately even a curious learner who has the curiosity to try to **ask** why will usually get a slap on the wrist for insubordination (at least in most of the USA) because culturally we still have the "do what I say or else" mindset.
Literally everyone would benefit from understanding the "why"s
@@ZombiBunni_I'll actually have to pass this onto a family friend who's studying at uni atm and involved with student organization so they may try to pass it forward
The Rhonda Santis bit is genuinely a great name for a bit character representing fake sources
Classic zoe
Right, I was thinking "wow what an unfortunate name" until the reveal😂
Little Rhonda......,.
The triple take I took when I heard the name
I wasn't watching i was just listening and when I heard it i didn't get Rhonda so I was like "hmmm" But the Rhonda bit is very cool
Source: "The King died in 1756"
Writing your paper: "The King was no longer present after 1756"
Makes it sound like The King went to go buy some milk
@MacZephyrZ Nah, we know the truth.
He went to buy cigarettes.
@@yukaiyamiHe'll be back. He said we'd get ice cream!
The King was tired! XD
@@MacZephyrZ The King suddenly respawned in 2009.
For those who care about the ACTUAL star of the show
First cat appearance 18:42
First cat chaos at 30:55
Thank you byby
Thnx
Thank you for doing this crucial work
adding to it
35:28 for cat purring
@@tirone7520 OMG, the purring!
The hero we deserve
As soon as you said “The answer is simple: punish them,” my immediate thought was “Zoe that goes against everything you’ve taught me. Something’s up here.”
fr something felt real fishy XD
I was passively listening up until then, but my response was basically the cut in “BUt ZoOeE”
Yeah I was interested in where it was going but at that point I was like "what are you a cop 🤨"
Yeah I was like hmm I'll hear you out, but I am immediately suspicious of punitive justice. Nice twist and great essay
It was really well done because it did the slow build TO that conclusion. So you can be in general agreement from the start, just buy into the "facts" that are being presented, so that by the time the final claim hits you are stuck in either agreeing or rejecting the "facts".
People seem to be forgetting that he didn't just palagrize; he also used the goodwill built off of his plagarism (and also false information) to spearhead harrassment campaigns against anyone who tried to call him out and effectively scam the hell out of a lot of people for his fake movie studio
Don't forget he likely pulled viewers away from genuine creators in the LGBT space by stealing their work and passing it off as his own.
That's true, however this video isn't just about Somerton, if it was, then yeah, I guess it would make sense to focus on that, but this is about plagiarism as a whole and how to discourage it, and prevent it.
Although again, Somerton is a piece of shit, and I do personally believe he deserved to have his career ruined, like he in particular really seems like a complete piece of shit.
He also created funding campaigns for projects that still have yet to see any movement on them
He also manipulated everyone with a fake su¡c¡de note, only to latter sit back & horny tweet from his secret alt acount
@@ApexGaleThat may be what upsets me the most about the situation, queer creators already have a hard enough time getting noticed
Bold of you to wear a black shirt while owning a cat. No disrespect meant. As a cat owner, we wear it as a badge of honor.
Gotta love how the cat is *really* into this video!
Wait what? I'm confused. Is it the cat fur? I mean all ye gotta do for that is to not have yer shirts on the floor and properly stored away.
@@Stirling-ShadeIf the cat rubs on you, the hair sheds.
@@Stirling-ShadeYou'd be surprised how much cat hair can just float around, or how much gets on you if they get anywhere near you.
Just get a black cat.
edit: I now see that the cat was chosen to coordinate with the throw blanket.
I'm here for "another video just riding the trend of hbomberguy's plagiarism video". His was too short I need more
I love the "his was too short" like he didnt make a 4 hour long video + bonus video on it, amazing joke
Your perception of time will change once you've watched a 12 hour video essay. 4 hours will feel like nothing
@@powerviolentnightmare5026As someone who watched through Lily Simpson's 10 hour Harry Potter video, I can confirm
@ville__ whats this got to do with women specifically
I want to eat more slop.
i really just heard the name "rhonda santis", thought "wow, thats funny, sounds just like ron desantis" and did not question it any further
Saaame 😂
The relief I felt when I saw her name on screen overpowered my critical thinking skills
The funniest part of the plagiarism accusations against ARANOCK and my Star Wars video was that I appeared in both, in both playing a Star Wars style character
Clicking "sort by new" and ending up with your comment on top, I had to double check I didn't sort by top comment for a sec haha but no it was just perfect timing
That's crazy. You plagiarized the idea of you playing a Star Wars style character?
For real, good content.
I saw both videos and I had no idea there was a controversy lol thank god I’m not on Twitter
I think some people don't actually understand what plagiarism is. Like, it's not the same thing as homage or parody, but I've seen quite a few people saying media + content creators who do this work being accused of plagiarism.
It's really funny that your username has a 1 at the end. Didn't know the Star Wars video existed, will watch. Your Guardians of the Galaxy video was amazing, i wanted to thank you lots for making it happen :)
I have an extreme case of ADHD, and was fairly annoyed that James Somerton used that as one of his excuses for his plagiarism. ADHD doesn’t make you forget something that important.
edit: alright, this may have been a bit of an oversimplification. I clarified in my replies, but figured I'd write it here. Yes, you can forget any number of things not matter how important. For instance, I forgot my therapist appointment literally three times in a row.
The point is people with ADHD will definitely forget to write down sources. But after getting called out for it once (or even a few times), we tend to overcompensate and create thorough processes so that it prevents us from forgetting to write down sources because it will literally be built into the process you create.
And yes we still won’t be perfect, but we wouldn’t respond the way he did because it would be a legitimate mistake
He makes it sound like a mysterious force that just swoops in and removes knowledge, which is just unfair to real ADHDers I know whose lives are like 70% learned ADHD coping strategies.
In my experience ADHD makes it easier to write your own stuff than to sit and read and steal other people's. It's a more active therefore preferable activity.
But what ADHD makes you forget depends on what you find important. If you don't give a shit about crediting people or being honest about your research and highlighting other writers then you're more likely to forget those things.
Somerton's just lying and trying to garner sympathy though and I'm glad most people see through it.
@@morgantrias3103 "But what ADHD makes you forget depends on what you find important. If you don't give a shit about crediting people or being honest about your research and highlighting other writers then you're more likely to forget those things."
Totally agree! I was going back and forth in whether or not I wanted to explain this, but in the end, I didn't want to make my initial comment so long explaining every nuance lol, but you're totally right.
My boss uses her ADHD as an excuse for forgetting really important stuff that could make me and my colleagues who are under her in a bad light and even harm us professionally. I totally get why you're angry. ADHD is not equal to irresponsability and it never will.
Yeah. If anything it just gives you anxiety that leads to editing more cautiously to make sure that you actually remembered to cite your sources appropriately.
zoe: and if we're so obsessed with catching plagiarists, we should probably investigate where they come from
me whispering to myself, nodding solemnly: _ohio..._
As a teacher in Ohio, I can neither confirm or deny this….. however, some of my students could neither corroborate or disprove this.
😂😂😂
I'm not from America and Google is not helping, I want to understand this joke 😂😅
@@hanzobonaza Ohio has become somewhat of a Meme state in the past few years. It’s a very basic slice of American, not on a coast, not fully in the Midwest, not much special and a little heavier on meth addicts than you’d ask for, but mostly just very normcore America…..
And plagiarism is an odd crime that’s not news worthy, no Florida man stuff… so it’s funny to claim that all plagiarism is somehow irreversibly to Ohio.
@@Gus-n9uAs a Californian, Ohio is also a state where people come from. I’ve never been to Ohio… oh wait, I forgot! I actually did spend the night in Ohio once. I forgot lol. Anyway, I’m adding to your explanation, as a self absorbed “coastal elite,” to say that Ohio is a place that people are from. Not a place that people move to or go to on purpose. So blank saying “From Ohio” is funny. It’s not particularly political, as it’s not New York, the south, etc. It’s always in the news as a swing state. So, it stands to reason, that “normal” people live in Ohio, leave Ohio, and go fill the rest of the US doing such activities as plagiarism and such ❤
Rhonda Santis will surely join the hallowed ranks of Mike Hawk and Hugh Jass
Jack Mehoff and Mike Hunt aren't happy about being missed from your list
And what about Ben Dover?
Juan Tueded agrees.
@@symbungee I used Jack Mehoff for something one time. Was really funny when something came in the mail addressed to that name
Feel bad for not getting it ':D
I was a student conduct officer in undergrad (professional narc, whaddup lol), and I sat on a number of boards for allegations of plagiarism. Every single time, the student knew that they'd done something wrong, they copped to it immediately, and expressed that they only did it because of a failure of time management or other stressful situation that left them without time to complete the work the proper way. Notably, these cases were only brought when a professor showed an assignment to the Dean of Studies, so a professor had to realize it for a case to even start, and in every board I sat on, the professor reported that they noticed pretty immediately. With very few exceptions, our usual sanction that we assigned was to invalidate the assignment and recommend to the professor that the student be allowed to redo it, which the professors almost always accepted.
This is all to say, we all mutually understood why it was wrong, and most students didn't at all need to be told why (I mean, they chose to go to a pretty academically challenging college after all), not to mention that the people who did it usually did it once, copped to it immediately, and never did it again. The kind of plagiarism we tended to see was because someone desperately tried to cut a corner in a non-ideal situation. Not the kind of plagiarism that goes unnoticed, or that feels very morally bankrupt. So I agree, often the consequences of plagiarism are pretty negligible. I mean, no student was stealing any money or academic credit from another scholar in their field, it was just undergrad papers for basic course credit, haha.
But the situation definitely gets more tense when there's money and livelihoods on the line, and your audience is millions of strangers as opposed to just one teacher who's helping you learn to write and research. I would stand by that the strict, but limited in scope and compassionate approach that we had at my college is a good way to approach it. We of course had a lot of power; we had the ability to do everything up to and including expelling students from the college, but we never seriously considered something so extreme for the cases we tended to hear. Obviously the flagrant offenders need a stronger response, but coming at people with compassion tended to serve us pretty well!
I hope this comment gets to the top, it's really informative
Nailed it. The culture of zero tolerance authoritarianism does nothing to prevent bad actions or outcomes, and in fact often causes them.
May I ask what school, or would that be giving away too much?
This is how it should be done. Most of the time, cheating ends up being almost as much work if you are going to get away with it.
I’d be fascinated to learn if you deal with AI cases, students using Chat-GPT for their writing, and if you guys have made any precedents on that already.
about the speedrunners, i heard somewhere once: "they don't cheat to get a faster time, they cheat to get a time faster"
Karl Jobst
"Researcher Rhonda Santis..."
Yeah, I had to tab over to the video for that citation, because just listening, that sent a chill down my spine. 😅
Okay, it's three minutes later, and now I'm *more* embarrassed.
Lol same
I was folding my laundry and paused "...waiiiit a second"
I looked up in a panic
I instantly did a double take, but was getting dressed and didn't care enough to look 😅😂😂
flew too close to the sun with the fake quotes, i immediately felt the urge to google whether "rhonda santis" was a real person with a VERY unfortunate name
This is my first time on this channel but something pinged for me with that name specifically as well. Glad my critical thinking isn't completely asleep today LOL.
@@beddingdowninbedlam same lmao I was halfway paying attention and I did a double take and rewinded 😂
Look up the British Alex Jones
@@xant8344 i feel like that's a common enough first & last that there's probably plenty of unfortunate folks having their good names besmirched by him
wait what does it mean
Personally, I think falsifying data is way more egregious than plagarism. Plagarism is effectively stealing which hurts the one who did the actual work. Falsifying data is not only stealing, it’s full-on fraud and it hurts everyone who believes the data and uses it to form arguments. Francesco Gino is who I particularly have in mind. I don’t think she’s evil, but I think her behavior has demonstrated that she values her status more than honesty and data.
Lastly, self-plagarism is bogus and I hate it.
This is how I have always felt on the matter, particularly when it comes to what I’ll call “info dump media” (video essays, history podcast, ect.) anyone who collects data for the right reasons should care more about the spreading of valid data than they do about credit… not to say credit isn’t important, but if it’s the goal, you are an ass and a bad researcher. Often you can tell the difference between plagiarism and laziness with these kind of situations.
Look at The Dollop, a history podcast. Anyone who listens to even 20 minutes understands that these two COMEDIANS have not created the research they are discussing and disseminating, however, it’s also clear they want to spread ideas they believe are true and correct. When they got caught up in a “plagiarism scandal”, it was pretty clear on the outset that it was classic laziness and not malice of any kind.
This is an example of something that is inherently wrong, but not the thing I want us focusing on. False data is a far greater threat than improperly cited data. Both can be fixed at once, but I’d rather fix a house fire BEFORE a dumpster fire?
@@Gus-n9uexactly
I think they are different in that the damage to the one person being plagiarized usually impacts them specifically and both personally and professionally whereas falsified data is not done to nobody in particular and mostly has professional consequences.
It's like having something stolen from you specifically vs money embezzeled from your country's budget.
@@leow.2162 I see your point, but consider the consequences of those who trust in the falsified data. Those who use that data to build their arguments, write their dissertations, and publish their books are all compromised by that falsified data.
To me, having someone steal from me is personal, having someone dupe me into believing something that was false and cite it to make my argument not only feels like theft, it makes me tainted by proxy as now my arguments are skewed as they were realiant upon incorrect assumptions.
@ReflectionsofChristianMadman it also often leads to alot of people actually getting hurt physically. Just think about how many people died in the pandemic because of BS pseudoscience.
Zoe Today: "I'm confident and successful. I know what my audience likes, I do what I want!"
Zoe Community Post Yesterday: "Are you guys reaaaallly sure that you like my cat?? 🥺"
Zoe today: I am confident and successful, so I'll rant for an hour instead of delivering a concise 15-minute message.
@@TinLeadHammer She didn't get confident and successful by listening to the writing advice of someone who confuses thourough analysis of a topic with a rant.
@@TinLeadHammerYou really thought you could be clever by slinging that "zinger"? Just admit you're dumb and stick to Shorts and TikTok.
@@thatguythere6161In fairness, I can see this comment as standard tongue-in-cheek internet snark rather than actual confusion and/or a complaint. But I could be wrong!
I think one of the more insidious things about Somerton's plagiarism was using the good ideas of others to couch his own bad ideas, the Tod in the Shadows video adds a whole different depth to what Somerton did
Yeah like his weird misogynistic takes were treated as gospel because of his more intellectual "takes", it's actually the reason I stopped watching him wayy before his plagiarism was called out.
pirates known for welfare XD ok its a genuine good study , like how was that in and not caught, its a good study how easy you can more wrong stuff presented confedent with true stuff.
Todd's video is much more damning on top of Harry's, seeing how much he stole then how much he lied outright was a fucking nasty two punch combo. @@marocat4749
And not only to couch his own bad ideas, but to couch his cowriter's straight up made up "facts". It's honestly funny how basically everything Somerton wrote was plagiarised from somewhere and everything his cowriter wrote was made up bs because that guy, in his own words, does not read and does not do research.
can you imagine being this mystery creator whom she considered exposing for plagiarism and watching this video with an absolute iron grip on your chair
I'm upset she'd allow someone to continue tricking thousands of people. It's dishonorable to do that, and to knowingly allow it. She wouldn't be ruining his livelyhood. He ruined it making poor choices.
@@samanthadelacroix640Yeah I agree 100% see something say something is a motto I live by. Unless it puts you in an obviously dangerous situation it is important to call out when someone is doing wrong.
I know her “sources” at the start were fake but it’s true that if you don’t “punish” someone as she says they *will* keep doing it since there is no reason for them to stop.
Also I agree it wouldn’t be ruining his livelihood! He is the one who ruined it by doing this in the first place. I’ve heard that so many times with women coming forward about men abusing them and people go “Why did you say anything this will ruin his life!” He ruined his own damn life!!
I know it’s not to the same level as abuse but it is still the same mindset which bothers me
@@samanthadelacroix640yeah i’m weirded out by that too
i can imagine that she followed her own advice she gives at the end. maybe she reached out privately to the creator? i want to be optimistic like that. i hope if the creator reacted negatively to her reaching out, she would've said something.
did you guys just not watch the video? did you just hear her talk about it and explain her decision and didn't pay attention??? also equating her stance on plagiarism to SA apologists is WILD and inappropriate
Your co-host really holds down their screen space.
And the audio space!
As someone who mainly listens (because I am at work fixing cars, and my neighbors tend to listen to right wing radio): I love the cat purrs.
Im new to the channel and the cohost has an immaculate vibe
Mew mew! Spo wise and enlightening , mew!
@@mxpants4884 YES. Comforting kitty purrs make for a good video. Also, I appreciate the fact that the blanket matches the co-host.
@@mxpants4884Holy shit, same! I loved listening to those purrs
Carl Jobst even exposed his OWN cheated speed run from many years ago. Exposing your own mistakes before they're caught, by the way, is a good way to preserve trust.
I agree. I find it weirdly just as comforting as someone who claims they’ve never cheated. The slightest dip in trust
after hbomber video some youtubers did the same. Sadly i can only remember one name (Tomska) but i remember some content creator mentioning few others.
@@samamies88 His was way before that video. He did it as basically one of his many videos exposing cheaters.
@@samamies88 No, I didn't watch the Tomska video. I don't watch his channel. I was talking about Carl Jobst. Dude, did you even read my comment?
Edit: Oh, I see what happened. We played the pronoun game. When I said "he" I was referring back to Carl Jobst in my original comment. You thought I was referring back to Tomska in your reply.
What I like about Tomska is that he admits numerous times that he has made several mistakes. His Somerton scale video, Fun Facts and F*ckups, and the fan meetups video show that he isn’t some flawless creator, and he holds himself accountable for his many faults, which helps to build trust.
I know this isn't the point of the video, but I love how around 39 minutes in, the cat is so happy you can just hear them purring into the mic as Zoe goes on her lecture.
The “more subs actually means they’re more reliable” thing was surprising, but I didn’t start thinking “wait this can’t be real” until “Rhonda santis”
Well one of the things that goes against Somerton is the fact that when critcisms against his plagiarism came to light before the Hbomberguy video, even with a person who wanted to give him a chance to improve, he weaponized the idea of a queer witch hunt against a creator and used his massive platform to crush them.
I love how James went through all this completely unscathed instead, as he was after the goofy cancellation attempt over Ghostbusters 2016.
The guy is uncancellable.
Like a year ago I was accused of plagiarism by a teacher. The situation was luckily fixed in less than 24 hours - apparently I was mixed up with another student who had an extremely similar name to mine. But those few hours were fucking terrifying, it truly felt like my life was over. The teacher was horrible, and despite me trying to send him proof I hadn’t plagiarized like turn it in scores, he refused to look at anything I had sent because he was so sure it was me. Since it happened I’ll admit my thoughts on plagiarism have changed a lot. Obviously it’s bad, it shows a lack of respect and taking credit for others peoples works is wrong and can have real world consequences beyond people just thinking you’re smarter than you are. But I feel like people go about punishing it in such a vicious way that doesn’t help anything at all. I think back to that assignment I was accused of plagiarizing, which was only like 200 words total, and wonder what happened to the guy who actually did plagiarize (and whether or not he even did plagiarize in the first place). At the college I go to plagiarizing punishments go from failing the class to being expelled, depending on how bad it was. For a 200 word assignment the kid probably wasn’t expelled or anything, but they likely failed the class and could have even lost scholarships. In my eyes a 200 word assignment isn’t worth that from a student standpoint, but the punishment also seems kinda extreme to me. I wasn’t even the one who plagiarized and it’s still affected me, making me overly anxious about assignments and the thought I might be accused again
I totally fell for that bit, you were standing in front of a bookcase and everything!
These books aren't just for show, they've got words in them too!
If the COVID pandemic taught us anything, it's that it's not about the words you're saying; it's about if you have books behind you that some dying magazine can psychoanalyze for clicks while you're saying them.
I smelled something fishy when you started quoting Dr. Tobias Menteur (_menteur_ is the literal French word for "liar"), but I never suspected for a second you were actually taking us for a ride. Well played, Zoe! 👍
@ville__
The inane ramblings of an incel.
I got suspicious when she didn’t act like anything was odd about the name “Rhonda Santis” but wasn’t expecting the reveal either, lol.
@@snood4743 Not going to lie, that one went right over my head! Nice catch! 👍
@ville__ omg and you've copypasted it under several comments
@@rogaldorn4759 check out his channel and other comments, he relentlessly spams nonsense and then gets really mad when people call him out lol
On the subject of that creator you suspect of plagiarism, while I think you're right to have some skepticism toward the idea of making a callout video, I think the big takeaway from Hbomberguy's video (and especially his asides about drama youtube) is that plagiarism isn't about the plagiarists themselves, and it especially isn't about the random nitwits who happen to find it. At the end of the day, plagiarism is about the people having their work stolen.
As such, whether you choose to do anything with the information you've compiled or not, you should definitely inform the original creators that they've been robbed. If nothing else, they deserve a chance to take action themselves before a huge witch hunt kicks up on their behalf, especially since they might not even know that people are paying thousands of dollars for their work with all the money going into someone else's pockets.
The part of plagiarism that has always rubbed me the wrong way is the "squishy" aspect of it that you mentioned. When I was in my first semester of community college, I got reprimanded and nearly put on academic suspension for "plagiarism" because I didnt cite my sources correctly. At that point in time, I was very unaware of how to format my citations properly in a paper because my high school didnt prepare me for the standards of citation I would be subject to in college. I had zero intent of stealing the work of others and passing it off as my own, yet I was accused of plagiarism and nearly had my whole college career stained by it. The intent portion should be absolutely integral in accusations of plagiarism. Because some people, like myself, might not be aware of what is ethical and what is required of them when using someone elses work to support ones own.
I didn't include proper citations in my papers until I started writing my master's thesis, fortunately that was before universities started implementing computer assisted plagiarism control so nobody really cared, and it was in philosophy which has like 20+ different modes of citations depending on which classical philosopher you quote.
That's so awful. At the university I worked at first offenders would get a sit down interview going over the issues with their work and a warning and that was it. Only if a student was caught multiple times for the same sort of plagiarism would it warrant being put on their permanent record. And poor citations would cost you marks, not count as plagiarism. Copying a large amount of text counted as plagiarism regardless of whether it was cited properly or not.
insane
At my university we were taught how to cite in the first week of classes. I think all universities should do that, primarily to teach people who might genuinely not know how to cite, but also to remove "I didn't know" as an excuse for actual plagiarism.
And this wasn't a single slide in a presentation. They gave us guides, had us practice, and do a quiz. Not too much, but enough to check we understood, and we knew who we could ask if we wanted to check.
To be fair, before you tackle any course in varsity you are suppose to do a course on academic writing. It's usually the first course you do at most/if not all universities. So that no one can claim ignorance.
your perspective as an English teacher is the one i’ve been wanting to see on the internet’s current Plagiarism Zeitgeist because you understand the importance of responsible citation but also the fuzziness of literary originality. fantastic video, Zoe
Thank you so much! :)
Love & respect to all good teachers!
I have always said to teachers who got annoyed with me for asking why:
If I (/students) understood why we were doing what we were doing, many more of us would choose to do the task without further questioning, unless it was out of joy.
A recent example: my printmaking lecturer asked us to etch for 10min then 20min, and to rinse the plate and look at it in between. I found this annoying as it was inefficient and served little obvious purpose to me.
I asked her about it and she explained that practicing observation and regular checks of a process builds the habit that prevents major errors and a deep understanding of the material being worked with.
I was happy with this and now check every time.
Sometimes a why is the difference between contempt or corner cutting and genuine learning.
(And yes ik I was being a bit silly in retrospect but it kinda just serves my point more tbh, annoying ppl also deserve to learn)
Another example from my own life (also a little silly): My dad would always be on me for not leaving things on top of the top-load freezer. I always kind of ignored it until I asked him why and he explained that extra weight/pressure would ruin the seal over time.
I think the point at the very end is important. Elementary/high school always gave very mixed messages about citations and plagiarism. "You must cite your claims." vs "This must be entirely your own work." I was always worried that if I cited something, I'd be admitting that the paper wasn't entirely my own work.
This is such an important point. Thanks for highlighting it.
School and the internet’s obsession with originality is one of the big motivators that disincentivize proper attribution. I am a derivative artist through and through, but it took me a while to be ok with that because every time I started my explanation of my work with “it’s based on this property that I specifically did not create” the reaction was “when are you going to do something original?” despite me explicit adding unique elements (or at least elements from real life). It has made me consider trying to hide my influences or renaming characters that I changed the characterization of so it’s inspired by instead being the copyrighted work, but I still haven’t stopped citing my sources no matter how annoying my family can be about how openly derivative I am with my work.
I think a lot of people need to stop thinking the proper punishment for a plagiarist is "I need to personally ruin them on behalf of those they wronged." And instead look at it as a largely community driven repercussion, where individuals collectively remove the rewards the content thief is thriving on. I.E. canceling patreon, unsubscribing, watching/supporting the creators that they stole from. Too many people take it a step further and seek out excessive retribution when there are far more nuetral and even positive stances you can take that still "punish" the transgressor.
Plagiarists literally aren't punished at all (unless they're students & music artists, etc). That's the problem. Social reactions do eventually become codified, either due to trend or direct recommendations/ lobbying.
I personally hope that RUclips requires all content creators to attribute all non-original sources for their content just like they do music.
I used to support Somerton, but immediately cancelled my donation to his Patreon within hours of the Hbomberguy video debut. In January, I began to support Alexander Avila since Somerton stole from this wonderful creator. I just hope that Somerton has the decency to remove my name from his list of patrons on his past videos. If he doesn't, I might give him a gentle nudge.
"personally ruin them" how??? Outing them as a plagiarist isn't ruining them. They did that themselves
@@FIRING_BLIND I completely agree. I mean over the top behavior such as doxxing them or their family members, or harassing them on social media. That's too far.
@@CynthiaMcG Alexander avila is great, and james didnt even stole from his recent even better banger.
I remember at University the plagiarism was rife. Mostly through ignorance and not paying attention to guidance. I was an absolute demon when it came to citations, I’d highlight every point in my assignments that came from a source and wouldn’t even put it in the document until it was in the reference list. My dissertation had over 200 sources with the bibliography being even longer, some people on my course had less than 20! For a dissertation??? Madness
And I’m not a super magical special student who’s any different to any other student. I was respectful of the work that came before me and loved my research area so much that they deserved the credit. I wove their points together with my research and allowed their work to back up my own. It was symbiotic and every time I struck a gold mine of new sources I’d get a rush of adrenaline. It felt good to cite, it felt good to get into their sources and their sources sources sources. I miss University so much 😭😭
@@lololpoppy I know, I try to be thorough and people act like there's some magic. I just care and put in the work. My system is similar to the one described in the video, in fact. Plagiarism can be confusing, but avoiding it is so easy, there's a format, there's clear guidance, when in doubt you can just do it. It's such an easy thing to get (more or less) right. Who wouldn't want that easy win?
As soon as you said punishment was the best way to solve a problem, an alarm went off in the back of my mind.
I'm a history student, and any time I am quoting someone the first thing I do is throw quote marks around the line itself and immediately add a footnote; not necessarily a formal footnote in the full Chicago style, just a quick 'author, page number' so I can go back and put the full citation back in later. I do the same with citing someone's argument in my own words, even if I later decide that a footnote isn't necessary for a particular example (i.e., having already done so in an earlier line of mine and so another footnote would be redundant), it's just SO MUCH BETTER and SO MUCH EASIER to have citations ready to go the instant I am citing someone else's work.
Footnotes are king. Easy to use, and other disciplines lack the joy of seeing a page that's 50% footnote, reading the footnote, and finding it continues on and takes up half the next page as well.
I think having to use Chicago style is so beneficial because you HAVE to stay ontop of all the information as you go otherwise it’s a mine field (I’m art history so have the chaos of both literary and visual sources of all kinds). I find my friends in the sciences who haven’t had to do Chicago are often the ones who struggle because it’s easier to be lax with the other ref styles
I didn't realise that some people write and then cite later on, I've always done citations as I write, like (Author Surname, Year) for research papers after the cited text
Same. Don’t know if the German style is similar but when I started a essay for university the document was footnotes before everything else. In average I only had to add 1-2 sources after writing the whole thing (mostly facts I researched while writing). But I also think that history is quite strict how to cite. Also studied literature and proofread other essays and they’re often laid back in comparison to history.
You touched upon a critical point: the betrayal of distrust that is felt by the viewer can spread to other areas of their lives, making the distrust in people a way of viewing the world. What was once about a stranger who uploads videos you like, infects the way you view people in general, including family and friends.
As a person with BPD, this is often the case for me. These scandals just reinforce my tendency to distrust everyone I know.
I genuinely started googling one of those papers to put on my to-read list, haha.
Sucks to see the internet saw that video and thought "Hey new punching bags"
Gosh I know. I feel like there are people that follow every canceling and just hop from one to the next to berate the people.
What would you prefer?/gen It’s not like we have any other way to keep people accountable
@@LeopardGeckoful yes we do - the people who he actually harmed can issue dmca takedowns or send cease and disaster letters. Mob justice isn't justice.
@@LeopardGeckofulI mean maybe people could simply stop watching their content?
@@LeopardGeckoful I think not supporting them and spreading the word to fans without making endless videos about their reactions and apologies would be good. This isn’t meant to be sarcastic either btw. I see like ten videos re: james somerton, mostly from people not even involved with him, and it’s like, don’t make this a “lolcow” thing.
i definitely always put my sources on-screen when i cite them, BUT i also sometimes HAVE to use an external google doc for sources solely because there's a character limit on the description box. usually i try to put my source links in the description box itself, but for a REALLY long video like my recent gamergate video, i had 118 sources for that, and the description box character limit cut me off LOL. so i agree with you for the most part! thanks for this!
Love your videos Savy!!💕 very good point you made here about long videos with many sources~
36:36 purring cat audio 🥺🥺
You're a real one
Desmond was ON ONE today. Going like a chainsaw.
Absolutely crucial timestamp
that whole time I was like a sports announcer "IS IT GONNA OH MY GOD ITS DOING IT TOUCHDOWN"
Yeee, here we go, I was just smiling the entire time he was purring.
Rhonda Santis... I did a double-take at that name; the researcher is not the governor of Florida. Lol. Edit: the researcher is not real. How could you do this to me?!
I had to do the same
@ville__the hell are you talking ab lol
@ville__big fan of that one specific guy penguinz0 covered like two years ago, huh?
@@RattlesnakeJakeyits a spam account
@ville__you are not a real human
Now I have to wonder whether you privately called out that plagiarising creator you found and asked them to stop or whether they'll continue to steal and get away with it
I recommend that anyone who thinks Aranock using "The Editor" is plagiarism go and watch TomSka & Friends' "Guide to Plagiarism (The Somerton Scale)". It comes out somewhere between level 1 (Parallel thinking) to level 3 (Inspiration), i.e. well into the safe zone.
Yess, I found the TomSka vid myself just a few days ago! It was SOOOOO helpful in parsing the discourse, because my brain likes spectrums a lot better than black-and-white boxes. (I also didn't know he MADE the asdfmovie's, and now I know who to credit for those!)
That is a pretty important video in the discourse.
In the example of "the editor", that's like someone accusing Metallica of plagiarising The Beatles because both these bands have 2 guitarists, a bassist and a drummer.
It's device-employment.
Devices can be metaphorical or physical tools, but can't be copyrighted, because that would limit creativity too much. If devices were copyrightable or so protected, no one would be allowed to use a paint-brush anymore, or make a story about a rebelious young person because that plagiarises something that was done that way before.
@@guidokreeuseler9566 I agree completely. Or in another comparison, it'd be like a romance author writing about a handsome billionaire. It also, I think, weakens the conversation against people who are stripmining other people's content to compare the two things and call them both "plagiarism", because if you want that accusation to have meaningful impact, you have to preserve the definition.
I know this is tooting my own horn, but when you mentioned the first reference I thought "this paper seems interesting" and paused the video to look it up... I didn't find anything, obviously, but assumed it was just an error on my part or something, because I had trust in you as a creator
This is also a useful warning on the idea of checking sources - it is easy to check but then assume you’ve just not looked hard enough
Citation rules can be confusing but especially outside of schools you just need enough information to actually find the source. So author's name, title, and a permalink (or link with access date) or book version is usually good enough
I hope you did end up talking to that anonymous creator at least. The problem is that intellectual theft is often thought of as victimless, but when people's livings are defined by people attributing ideas to them and paying them via patreon or memberships, creators really should know better. At the very least that anonymous creator should apologize offline, if not compensate whoever they stole from.
Yeah that part made me feel a bit uncomfortable, not because I'd want to go and harass the creator but because I'd want to know if I were supporting someone who was plagiarizing so that I can go give my support to the person who actually did the work. Especially given how often the original authors have much smaller platforms and quite frankly need the material support a lot more.
Agreed.
I thought that the “plot twist” there was going to be discovering that the author of the paper was actually the youtuber in question but they didn’t have their real name on their channel so it looked like they plagiarized it. But that’s probably not the case if they just didn’t cite anything ever
@@uncurled520You could always check yourself using similar methods i.e pasting video quotes into Google as a quotation to see if it comes up with anything using the same exact words.
I get why you did it, but nothing erodes trust in the community quite like saying "There is a chronic plagiarist you might watch. I won't tell you who." 😅
Yeah... I can see why she didn't want to pull the trigger on this, espectically in context of the broader point she's making here. But the idea that I might unknowingly be supporting a creator who has this iissue doesn't sit that well with me either.
I feel the best case if Zoe found a plagiarist is to go to those affected and ask what they’d want done. In the booktok community, Cait Corrain ruined her own career by targeting other authors of color and refusing their multiple attempts to privately deal with the situation. It was only then that Xiran Zhao went public. I think giving that power to those affected is a much better step than “well I found a plagiarist but something bad could happen if they’re exposed so I will keep their secret”
She did provide clues; watch out for someone who puts their sources behind a paywall, for example. And I imagine she took some action behind the scenes, as well.
Yeah idk it was weird for me that she was just like "A popular video essayist with many subscribers is a plagiarist but...I felt too good about exposing them so now I won't?" Like. I actually would very much like to make sure I'm not supporting them? I hope she contacted the people who were plagiarised
yeah this is very bizarre
I don't often write 'important' comments. I tend to just meme, but this video got me thinking.
I as a severely neurodivergent person always felt that avoiding plagiarism via citation was a 'required evil'. It was a enormous amount of work to keep the citations flowing, while forming original ideas around them. It takes videos like this to get me to think about it on a deeper level.
I like to think my foundational control of language is fairly strong, but I found myself falling behind because of the weight of citations. I could do the work, but I found myself failing to grasp a good work flow. The lack of that workflow eventually crippled my ability to be creative. This ultimately came to a head in college writing class, where I fell behind due to a combination of factors, and I found my work looking more like Plagerism. I eventually stopped, failed the class, and didn't submit my work.
I realized that I was teetering dangerously close to a ledge, I could jump and hope I made it through the class, or I could bite the bullet. I chose the latter.
I'm retaking that class now for those concerned about my continued education. I plan on being a therapist.
I've done a lot of speedrunning in my time, so much so that I've dedicated thousands of hours to mastering obscure fights/games. When I saw a high profile Monster Hunter Blindfolded cheating scandal my blood boiled, because I understood the amount of work required to actually achieve that feat.
I now, thanks to videos like this, recognize the amount of work required to write well and with an eye to academic integrity.
I still struggle obviously. I am however failing upwards and rather proud of that fact.
This video got my mind chewing on my own processes and my own perspectives on trust, or even skill. I let myself grow complacent and it took a pretty big jolt to get me to unstick from that position.
This was a very long winded neurodivergent way of saying.
Cheers, you got me to think and that is worth more than I'll ever be able to articulate with my command of the English language.
(Edited to fix a typo I found. Figured straight up horrible spelling on the first line was in poor taste on an English teachers video.)
If it makes you feel better, most of the papers that I end up reading in my field of study have citations on almost every sentence, sometimes multiple per sentence.
Oftentimes, this stiff is used to frame original ideas which will come much later. The idea isn't to form original ideas around cited works, it's to use those works to build up to and frame and support an original idea. And the original idea doesn't need to be big for it to be significant.
So to start of with, maybe go "OK so this is my original idea" and then go "so and so says this, and someone else says that which supports the idea" for example "angler fish and some types of octopus are pretty similar. Angler fish school (1) so do some kinds of octopus (2). Plus they're about the same size (3) and get eaten by some of the same predators (4)." (For the record, this is completely fake. There are some similarities between angler fish and octopus, but that is the limit of the truth of this example as far as I'm aware).
So the original idea isn't being formed around cited works, but instead being supported by and framed by cited works.
Idk if that will help, but as someone who is pretty neurodivergent myself, sometimes reframing how you go about writing something and why you do it makes it a lot easier.
I'd like to know if somebody I'm watching is plagiarizing so I can decide whether to continue to give clicks or not. There's a difference between informing the audience and a "take down piece"
Completely agreed. There's a point to be made about the way in which plagiarism is exposed, but knowingly protecting plagiarism by not revealing it when one notices it is irresponsible and condones it imo...
I never really liked the sudden burst of people jumping at the chance to lynch anyone for perceived plagiarism or really any wrongdoing. It never tends to feel honest, it just feels like people seeking retribution for self satisfaction and moral superiority.
YOU STOLE THIS COMMENT!! AAAAAAAA GET 'EM
Yeah, one thing that occurred to me when discussing the "why" of these recent public plagiarist floggings is that for better or for worse, I think humans in our society are itching to find a villain to take down, and plagiarism looks like a transgression for which we're "allowed" to take the gloves off. Nasty stuff.
The important thing is you have found a way to feel superior to them.
I can't have been the only person who heard you say "RUclips channels with more subscribers are found to be of higher quality" and immediately think of those five second craft channels, and think that can't possibly be true...
I was so close to clicking out in the first 5 minutes going, "Wow, this doesn't feel like a Zoe Bee video. What happened to her? And how unfortunate of a name is Rhonda Santis?"
This was a fun video, and even though my burning desire for retribution wants to know who... I think you helped remind me to tap into my empathy more regularly. Thanks, Zoe.
"Help-Im-A-Real-Lawyer" giving off real pinnocch vibes
I knew who it was as soon as she said: "sources behind a paywall".
This has me thinking hard... Do I follow anyone who puts their sources behind a paywall? I don't think I do... 🤔🧐
@@jamesphillips2285 I've been trying to think who that is myself
My wife and I started a pretty small channel (not the one I'm currently commenting with) a couple years ago relating to media theory in games and anime, and I think we came up with a pretty decent format for citations.
- Main citations are cited when they are quoted during the video and at the end of a video.
- Citations for supplementary material (games, images, clips) are displayed on the top left corner of the screen, and at the end of a video.
- Music is also cited at the end of the video in order of when they are played, even music from games.
Everyone deserves credit.
Thank you for this! Every video of quality should have a footprint for others to follow and benefit from so they can continue their learning. Even if it's just to look up sweet jams.
I think that the institutional education approach to citation fails everyone. We concentrate so much on the essay needing x amount of citations, and the formula for how you write out the citation, that the actual value of citing sources loses meaning. Losing points on a 3000 word essay because you put a comma in the wrong place in your appendix doesn't enforce the moral, ethical, and educational value of citation, it just makes citation feel like punishment.
i agree on a whole with some of what you said, and you're well spoken, but some of these parts just don't add up for me. i hope you reached out to that Nameless RUclipsr in private, and I'm not saying you should have made a huge blowup of their spot, but it doesn't sit right with me to keep something like that from the audience of that creator. those people have the right to make an informed decision about who they're watching/donating to/etc, and the people who have their content stolen from deserve to have the credit. I just don't like how "we need to hold people accountable" sounds when there's no evidence to suggest that you held the person you uncovered accountable.
I agree with that tbh.
Yeah my assumption is that Zoe followed up with the creator privately, but didn't bring that up in the video for some reason. I guess if something more identifiable happened (like someone Zoe had told had told the creator, and the creator did an apology to their audience - or they were publicly called out by someone else) Zoe might not have wanted to mention the follow-up. But I feel like there would be a vague way to confirm it had been followed up on and the creator is at least aware of the issue.
@@veelogation3890 yeah exactly. I was waiting for a "I reached out to the person" at the end when she was talking about steps that can be taken and she brought up talking to the creator privately. I understand not wanting to invite a mob, though. I didn't join in on the crusade against James Somerton, but I did watch him before HBomb's video and haven't since so that's the angle I'm coming from. it's a tricky thing to navigate, because once something is out you can't control how people react and unfortunately a lot of people don't just silently unsub and move on
This was my thought too. The problem that Zoe didn't seem to bring up is that some of the creators mentioned in H.Bomb's videos were told that they were caught plagiarizing, usually in comments, and one of their immediate reactions was to hide all evidence that they had been called out and/or to try and hide it better. The whole point of H.Bomb's video was that these people steal their words because they don't respect the source enough to properly cite it and they don't care about the ideas being said, just that it makes them money.
Whats funny is that last night was when I FINALLY watched the hbomberman and ToddintheShadows’ video after ignoring it for about a few months. This was way too well timed to add to my list.
@ville__ What are you on about? :/
@@joeiechristiansantana9641 They are an anti-woke hate-bot. Been reporting them for months. Not sure why they are not banned yet.
@ville__
Non-binary people are the physical manifestation of sensory perception. And in the same sense that when your senses are overloaded in any particular way (whether they're overloaded with pleasure or overloaded with pain), if your senses keep receiving that same stimulus over and over, you are not going to have as strong of a reaction to that same stimulus.
@@joeiechristiansantana9641 @Numbabu This ville__ guy's a bot farming controversy, just report and ignore it
I'm definitely not sold on the overwhelming reliance on "just educate them, guise!!! :)" Like, yes, that works on people who don't *know* why plagiarism is bad, but it also has literally no effect on people who don't *care.* Taking Somerton as an example, he definitely knew what he was doing and that it was harmful - in fact, he gave his fans harassment targets when people called him out before.
To people who steal on purpose, even after it's brought to their attention, the reason is generally pretty clear: they simply care more about fame and/or money.
My primary response to those kinds of people is that they'll typically act the same regardless of the system, so we can't hold the system as failing just because it can't fix an unfixable situation. She didn't mention this, but from what I understand there's a similar issue in finance where super high punishments like very large fines don't actually change behavior but actually increasing the likelihood of being caught even with small punishments. So, by educating more people about plagiarism and providing tools on how to identify it, I think that Ms. Bee is providing a solution we have reason to believe would make a difference.
Something I came aross in college was that when plagerism was brought up, it was framed as if students were already plagerising, treating all students as guilty untill proven innocent. Some of my classmates were second-guessing themselves on if they'd accidentially plagerised, which lead to unneeded stress. We couldn't use a plagerism checker ourselves, while lecurers could check the final essays, by which time it would be too late, the student would be disaplined and couldn't fix any issues.
I can imagine it could even have driven some students to plagerise anyway, as if lecturers view students as already being dishonest, then they might as well get the benefit out of it.
Since ChatGPT has been released there's been more plagerism by an order of magnitude in some colleges. Which is concerning, because what happens when AI models can hide plagerism better, allowing both ease of access and ease of obfuscation.
Those plagiarism checkers can be so stressful for students. Students did see the results of the plagiarism checker at our institution but it usually had a lot of false flags. We would do a quick check over what the plagiarism checker found and most of what it found was fine/innocuous. Like if they had to describe a simple concept and there were only so many ways to do that, or the axes of a graph getting flagged. Whenever someone had 90%+ of their work flagged for plagiarism it turned out this was their second submission of the same work through the checker and they were 'plagiarising' themself. We always emphasised to students that the plagiarism checker rating was not at all definitive, especially since the more texts (eg. previous students' work) it has the higher the percentage will get.
I was just thinking it might be better not to show students the results since they might panic and think they had to change their work when they didn't. But that's only if your educators aren't misusing the tool.
And I never get why people think they'll get good results by treating people like they're already doing things wrong. Especially with students, assuming the best/benefit of the doubt often models to students what being a good student requires and that it feels good.
I stress about unintentionally plagiarizing too! It's one of my biggest fears I think?
I really hope you've spoken with the people who were affected by the plagiarism of the anonymous creator.
I feel like that's the most moral thing to do.
People don't deserve to have their livelihoods ruined, but creators also don't deserve to have their work exploited.
I think the right thing to do is to let the original creators in the know and let them deal with the situation.
Zoe: you know what to do, you've been here before
Me, literally here for the first time:
Also, Desmond is adorable!
I would like to personally thank Desmond for his purring during the video, it really helped keep me grounded on a topic that can get me really heated, so Thanks Desmond! And thanks Zoe for being a cool head in a chaos circus.
My dad is a university professor and last year he had to put a presentation together on how to paraphrase and cite, because a lot of his students are international students coming from education systems that rewarded just parroting the textbook. So they literally just didn’t know how to avoid plagiarism and how to isolate the relevant information
“They don’t know how to avoid plagiarism”, no, what they don’t know is (presumably, you sound very USian) USian academia’s preferred citation and writing practices. Which is not the end all be all objectively correct way of doing things. Not by a long shot, in fact.
@@gkcadadr I’m Australian lmao, Americans say “college”.
And from what I heard from dad, these students genuinely learned to parrot their textbooks, they were marked down for changing the words up at all in school, so they needed to learn paraphrasing in uni to get good at, not just academic writing, but articulating original thought in general
@@gkcadadr
@@voidify3 Yeah it really happens. One thing I quickly realized after the hbomberguy video released was that… I had been very much on the line of plagiarism with the vast majority of my essays throughout elementary school, middle school and early high school. I’m in late high school right now and never really thought about it because I was taught to simply find a source and paraphrase it when I was learning to write essays in Elementary School. Which sounds fine- but it was one source and it was never any of my original ideas. Just a mixed up bowl of one or two sources to get a good grade. My writing style was fine so I managed to get good grades this way. My alternative high school I go to now doesn’t really do to many essays and none of my schools thought to check for this kind of thing. I feel kinda stupid for not realizing how unoriginal and bad of a way this was to write my essays. I’m very glad I never posted any of the video essays that I had written. And I’m very glad about this RUclips storm because I probably would have continued this way into college unless a teacher had caught it. I’ve written a few new essays this year for school since learning about this massive blunder of mine, and I’ve realized that it’s also far more satisfying and I feel much prouder of the essays I write. I also remember the essay I actually wrote far more. And my teacher said she was very proud of my writing abilities, which despite the grades I had gotten before, was never something that had happened. So I think it’s also very possible for those born in the US, to have this issue as well. Of course I think if this mistake is not realized by the time a person is going to university that’s probably on them- and honestly it’s on me for not realizing earlier since I very much have unrestricted access to the internet. But I think it’s very much worth pointing out bad writing education in schools in the US. Because I’ve had other writing issues growing up BECAUSE of my schooling. Although a lot of them are a lot less serious, such as telling me I was NEVER allowed to use the words said or say, or that I should never write in certain ways that could be a valid artistic choice.
Really enjoyed the video, but I do question the tip you bring up around 54:40. Bad faith actors like Somerton have historically used polite and good faith criticism as a vector to direct followers in harassment campaigns. It seems worth mentioning this.
I'm actually relieved! I put this video on in the back while folding laundry. I was just thinking "Man, this is a lot of bad takes in a row!" Then you dropped the source Rhonda Santis and I finally got it.
I, too was thinking, “dang! These are some pretty specious claims. How would you even research that?”
Hold your what? HOLD YOUR WHAT?! Horses don't exist, Zoe! How can I hold something that DOES NOT EXIST???
Goodbye horses,
You don’t exist at all…
@tarastargaze3833 I'd give a like to your comment, but right now you have 69 likes and messing with that just seems wrong
@@SashaIsNotAvailable Well, that seems to have changed, so feel free to do your part against horse propaganda.
@@tarastargaze3833 it's those darn Big Horse elitist shills that did it I tell you, they don't want us to realise horses aren't real nor do they want us to giggle at funny numbers. You can't do anything anymore these days, people are so sensitive!
horses are... lost... media?!?!
I think I know the creator that you are talking about. I wrote a comment to them about their sources being behind a paywall and they went off on me. Personally, I do not trust any creator who tries to get me to pay more for their sources. I do think the Google docs is not a bad idea if they also made a Google folder that had all the source documents in it. I hate the fact that academic journals are not free. Knowledge belongs to the people.
Wow! I took your advice to heart Zoe, and _actually_ read the one of the articles you cited in the description ("Making the Hard Choice: Community Safety and Moral Purity" - Dr. Robias Menteur, New York Times). I must say, it TOTALLY changed my entire outlook on plagiarism, internet culture as a whole, and - dare I say - my _entire_ life! I STRONGLY recommend that anyone reading this comment scroll back up to the description, and click on the link.
TRAITOR
@@The_pillow_fort By "TRAITOR", don't you _actually_ mean: "OMG, I completely second this comment and I couldn't agree more. Zoe eloquently explains the community benefit of us commenters walking the walk & checking out her sources, but reading this article was really its own reward anyway - so scroll up, and give it a read."
🤫
I knew what this was going to be and I did it anyway HEAD FIRST FEARLESS
Ok but 'menteur' is French for 'liar' so that adds a new layer of fun lmao - Zoe knows the game and she's gonna play it, some might say!!
I havent watched yet, when I do I will probably have a more coherent statement on the content of the work, but thank you for actually crediting me for my work. People very rarely do, sometimes even the people I did the work for. I know you know how much I care about integrity on that topic so its appreciated.
Its very tiring having my contributions always downplayed and ignored by most people.
Just wanted to say thanks for your ideas and participation in the Spiderverse chat. Really enjoyed that one ^_^
@@Nortarachanges Im glad you enjoyed it 💜
I understood from the start that using a similar rhetorical device is not the same thing as "stealing" an idea. It's the same as authors using different voices (1st person, 2nd person, omniscient) to set the tone for their novels/stories. I never understood why some people would latch onto that as being a problematic thing.
i really appreciate that desmond matches the blanket behind u
Claudine Gay's "plagiarism" was more about career assassination than actual plagiarism. The Guardian has an article by Andrew Lawrence that discussed the severity of her "crime." not even close to Somerton-level
"In some works, Gay credits a source in the wrong sentence. In others, she borrows language that even those who were ostensibly plagiarized accept as common phrasing within their field of study. 'I am not at all concerned about the passages,' said the political science professor David Canon, whose work the Washington Free Beacon accused Gay of plagiarizing. 'This isn’t even close to an example of academic plagiarism.'"
(note: I'm posting this comment at just after the 11 minute mark. if you get into this, I haven't gotten there yet.)
Edit: changed "Maxine Gay" to "Claudine Gay." not sure how I messed that up; thank you @conormclaughlin5811
Yeah.. also, imo it's worth mentioning that it was a pseudoscandal fabricated by Christopher Rufo, and almost all the mainstream media fell for it completely without really fact-checking. Michael Hobbes did a complete analysis of the 46 plagiarism accusations only 2 plausibly crossed the ethical line but only barely, because it was a matter of paraphrasing (with attribution) rather than plagiarism, which is indifferent for most academics. It's all laid out on a bonus episode of his podcast If Books Could Kill.
Yeah my older sister who was in grad school was like 'everyone does this. This doesn't matter'
Absolutely. The motivations were clearly wanting to shut down any criticism and dissenting opinions more than anything. Really disgusting but I am glad the door swung back in their faces.
Yes! Literally scrolled through the comments to see if anyone else explains this!
This. Though it is Claudine, not Maxine. And as I continued to watch the video I kept thinking about how important this exact kind of correction is because it would be really easy for someone to point to all of the societal factors as being obvious signs that Dr. Gay did this for all of these reasons. Which is especially dangerous when these sorts of things are said about Black Women who already are viewed as suspicious and assumed to be incompetant.
I remember the time someone stole a joke from me and I got mad. I can't imagine how it would feel to have an entire essay stolen!
One issue with your suggestions is that in the case of James Somerton when their plagiarism was pointed out to them by people with less or no power in comparison to them they attacked them. When someone is knowingly plagiarizing others to make a living it is in their interest to go into fight, flight, freeze, or faun defense mechanism.
I don't have a solution as I also don't like online mobbing but politely pointing out discrepancy just doesn't work. And if a public person decides to turn their audience on you as a non-public person that can be very mentally taxing.
I thought you quoted Ron D Santis lol, I had to do a double take on the source to see it was Ronda Sandis.
Same! I was so caught off guard
same lol
I mean she said later that the whole part was made up so I think you were supposed to do a double take.
That was the joke.
@@WolfDeityOh man I didn't even pick up on that lol, good catch!
WAIT I just realised that the secondary effect of those early citations is that we all end up accidentally getting practice following the tips you've given about how to communicate about these things more healthily, and that is pretty baller. Kudos.
one thing that always stressed me out when writing papers in school was accidental plagerism. also i always found keeping track of and properly formatting sources always threw me off my writing momentum when i did get into the paper proper. you had some interesting tips on workflow. thank you.
I'd like to introduce my new idea for a video essay I might make one day, "Plagiarism and the death of the Video Essay." (name is the explanation)
Genius idea, love it, so original 🙏
I think that titles already taken. Try "Plagiarism and the death of Video Essays". That's completely original.
Make sure to list Zoe Bee as a source DEEP in the description below 124 links to your different social medias and promos and just list the name of the channel with no links to the video or even the channel itself
I once got in "trouble" at school for over citing works. I was so worried about plagiarism, as they made a HUGE song and dance about it in year 9, that I cited teachers if they'd been the one to mention the topic in class, and even Shakespeare lines that are now just common phases. Was a right royal mess.
Hey, I for one appreciate this video because while I greedily devoured mr. bomberguy's 4h takedown of internet plagiarists, I was craving a sincere "why does this happen and what can we do to disincentivize this behavior?" video (because it doesnt occur in a vacuum). This hit the spot.
Now: This essay provides a good backdrop for me to explain something that I've had a difficult time wrapping my head around, which is that I sincerely don't understand why someone would plagiarize. Your narrative of how you avoid "accidentally" plagiarizing crystallized it for me--it's because for me, I really value what others have written on a topic, and I respect the hell out of anyone who has done the hard work of finding and reading other people's words on a topic. Why would you want to _hide_ that? It's a badge of honor! For me, it's maybe just as valuable to know and understand what others have said as it is to have said those things yourself. Hell, I _want_ to show off whose ideas I've read.
Then: I realize my whole process for doing lit reviews reflects this mindset. I create a separate document where I list every source and copy/paste highlighted excerpts from that source as I read it. I don't write anything original in that document, it's just a way for me to collect information. But for me, this is because I know I will forget who said what, and this gives me a safety net so I don't lose it all. As a sidenote, pick up a citation manager if you're worried about this or think it's hard. Go check out Zotero, it's free and has a Chrome addon that lets you add basically anything in a browser tab to your library with one click. Super convenient and a great skill to learn.
I’m glad you wrote the above: I both tend to keep notes of my own thoughts and to do a fair amount of writing in longhand, but VERY FORTUNATELY I am also almost preternaturally lazy … so whenever I need to cite anything, or to reference reams of text, I resort to digital tools - screenshots, copy-and-paste, embedded files - which means today it would be basically impossible for me to forget where some length of text originated from.
Now, as to why someone would plagiarize deliberately - outside of the pressures of modern-day higher education or under fear of being fired or something - I’m with you; right now it’s hard for me to imagine being in those shoes. But unless it’s a scenario of purely personal gain - like the online bozos lazily copying videos shot-for-shot and word-for-word because TikTok will do NOTHING about it, ever - then it’s also hard not to feel a twinge of sympathy.
Young adulthood is no breeze. Homelessness sucks. Vulnerability is punished, so one manufactures a façade just to retain some control over one’s fragile and eroding personhood. What may seem to others unforgivable may have seemed to the desperate - tired, scared, given bad information and on the brink of breaking - like the only reasonable last-ditch option. “IN CASE OF EMERGENCY BREAK RULES.”
My first college kinda sucked: I won’t belabor all the ways it sucked, but to boost its numbers it enrolled all kinds of kids who had little chance of succeeding at higher education unaided … and then, rather than direct a CENT towards aiding those students, it bought real estate and directed funds towards foggy projects which always seemed to somehow benefit the family of one trustee or another, and so on. In a school which focused heavily on reading ENORMOUS lengths of English-language texts and on writing pages and pages of essays, a few students barely even spoke a word of English - but they brought in more grant money, it seems, so there they were: privyet, tovarishch!
So when some of these students produced letter-perfect essays, when mere days before they’d barely been able to comprehend the book’s title, the culture which developed around such events was one of looking the other way: they had it hard enough, we all had it hard at that school … so we were all in it together. (Usually. Often. There were also quite horrible, notable, scarring exceptions. Suffice it to say, few competent students remained there longer than two years.)
I’m not suggesting looking the other way is always the answer. Again, there are the TikTok plagiarists, and no one placed pressure on James Somerton other than himself, no one held a gun to his head and told him “Live high off the hog or else,” no one made him quit his day job and buy expensive cameras and finance the whole operation by not only stealing, but by then badly misrepresenting most of what he’d stolen.
But we should learn to distinguish between those times when someone is acting maliciously, selfishly, and/or thoughtlessly, and those times when someone has been through some shit, and is tired, and feels utterly alone, and literally cannot conceive another way not to lose what’s left of their life. We all flee bad situations and walk into new ones thinking “Here comes my happy life!” and oftentimes, a few short years later, more bruised and battered than before but now trying more desperately to hold it together, the shell-shocked thought occurs: “I tried so fucking hard, I really fucking tried…”
We never really know what people have been through. And sometimes we never will: in U.S. society, the first thing people who seek help often learn is “Telling makes it worse, telling always makes it worse.”
So being a little nicer is always an option. We don’t need to let criminals off the hook but … making a bloodsport out of “punishing them what’s got it coming,” especially when the dread malefactors are basically powerless, is only recreating and perpetuating the dominant ideology underpinning our toxic economic system - and nobody needs that!!
[To be clear: not countering anything you wrote, just riffing off of and expanding upon it.]
Desmond's presence and occasional interruptions enhance my enjoyment of your videos. It's a nod to the fact that 1. yes, video essays aren't filmed in one continuous take, and 2. many people find it more pleasing when a video's atmosphere is dynamic rather than static. I look forward to many more episodes with feline supervision and amusing bloopers at the end.
absolutely incredible video, 10/10, resisting the urge to steal the script so hard
The cat purr subaudio is perfection
.......purrfection? :)
@@zoe_bee purrfection
You should do that media literacy video so I can send it to my brother
I love that RUclips gives me the option to auto-translate this comment into English. ("The cat purr is the perfect soundtrack")
47:00 I remember an Innuendo Studios video (I Hate Mondays) that explained why some people still prefer punitive solutions even if they don't actually reduce plagiarism. It's not about actually solving the problem, it's about adopting the correct moral stance about who should be punished for the problem, because the solutions that would actually deal with the problem are _too disruptive to the status quo._
Those people take the first seven minutes of your video literally because it gives them a semblance of _power_ over others, the perceived "wrongdoers", power that they would not have under the more constructive solution. They would claim that examining the reasons that people plagiarize is a complete waste of time, because we don't need to know why it's bad to know that people need to suffer for doing it.
It’s a little tangential, but I’ll add, relating to people opting for punishment rather than for examining the system: child-beating, spanking, “corporal punishment” in general, is NOT something which has historically or presently been implemented by the majority of the uppermost ruling classes … in fact, the lower down the socio-economic scale a group now is or has been historically, the more likely they are or have been to beat their kids. And the REASON for this is kinda grimly interesting: in feudal, monarchic, and slave-holding societies, anyone of a higher rank could punish the children of anyone of a lower rank for misbehaving or even just for looking at their “betters” the wrong way - which could even, and not unusually, end in the death of that child … which was of course seen by the “law” as justified. Child-beating seems to have arisen among the subaltern classes as a way of impressing upon their children - literally, in the sense of bruises and welts - the prevalent ideology imposed by the rulers, basically the social relations of production.
So child punishment, including quite horrible punishment, was developed among the subaltern classes as a way both of preventing worse fates from befalling one another, i.e. preventing their being outright murdered by the ruling classes - but also, as a way of never having to outright confront the rulers or the system perpetuating the unjust hierarchy. And arguably, gruesome punishments overall were developed this way: by the subaltern classes internalizing the ideology keeping them down, and then brutally enforcing upon one another the performance of this ideology, thus perpetuating it.
We may not be so far off from our forebears, continuing to internalize the prevalent ideology rather than examining it, and then helping to perpetuate it by meting out on one another the most horrible, inhumane punishments, sometimes even followed by gloating over it.
RUclips must have the ability to check this on their end. If they can fingerprint a song, they can check the text people use in their videos and then flag it.
YT directly profits from these channels. Why would they do anything about it, if the entities who are harmed do nothing about it?
I was half-listening while doing chores, as I do with every RUclips video, and was like "It sounds legit", until the quote from Rhonda Santis. I did a double take and only then realize you were fooling us.
Great way to get my full attention. Chores will be postponed for another 50 minutes, while I finish watching the video.
I really appreciate your more empathetic approach towards this issue. A lot of the discourse in the past two months acts like those who plagiarize are villains looking to intentionally steal other people's work. I’m sure that’s occasionally the intention of some creators (Somerton himself seemed to go out of the way to erase those he stole from), but it’d be nice to show at least a little bit of grace towards those who may have just plagiarized unintentionally.
Can we all pour one out for Rhonda Santis? Think of how much work she needs to do to correct confused people.
The sudden PURRRRRRRR sounds at around 37:18 at first seemed like an ominous aesthetic choice. Then I tabbed back in to the video and saw the cat near the mic lmao
My cat went right over to the TV and started trying to figure out where the purring cat was hiding, lol.
I was watching this while playing Minecraft and thought it was something in the game lol
Plagiarism became a very hot topic in my country, Norway, of all places, this year. It was revealed that Mrs. Sandra Borch, a prominent cabinet minister in the Ministry of Education, had done a plagiarism in her master's thesis back in 2014. She stepped down immediately from her post.
At the same time, it was also revealed that Mrs. Ingvild Kjerkol, the Minister of Health, had done a plagiarism in her master's thesis from 2021. She is denying the severity of the allegations, and is still in office as of now. This latter case is the far more interesting. Why did she, a woman in her late 40's with over a decade in office, feel it necessary to get a master's degree? This sparked a debate over the nature of a master's degree, with "Master's degree disease" or "Master's degree mania" (Norwegian: "mastersyken") probably becoming the neologism of the year.
UPDATE: on the 12th of April, Mrs. Kjerkol's master's thesis was revoked/annulled (or whatever the proper term is) due to plagiarism, and Prime Minister Støre forced her to step down from her post. This is the 8th Minister in 2 years who has had to step down due to scandal. Only two of these were concerning plagiarism in their theses; the other six cases were sexual misconduct, insider trading, nepotism, tax evasion.
"sexual misconduct, insider trading, nepotism, tax evasion" soooo everything the American Republican front-runner for President openly brags about doing...
"What if their trust had been built on lies and false promises?"
This is why I get so confused when people say "just give Somerton another chance!" Another chance... to do what? What was he bringing to the table? It's not like he lied about his qualifications and became a world-class doctor or something-he didn't actually... do the stuff.
The "Researcher Ron DeSantis" at 5:49 caught me so off guard lmao.
I really need to stop listening to video essays on the second monitor.
I'm actually looking that up and can't find anything on that study or that researcher, but "Rhonda Santis" was apparently a name used to mock (?) him.
Edit: Nevermind I read some other comments and it seems to be intentional.
hahaha same
@@Kriae Did you watch the video? You don't need to read the comments to know that it wasn't a real study or researcher.
inb4 "Ah, you're right! You don't need to read the comments to know if it was a real study or researcher, as the video states it is (sic) a real study by a real researcher! Thanks for the clarification! Is there anything else you need?"
The fact that this video was posted in the same week I have lectures on plagiarism at my university is super fitting. Great video as always, Zoe
All those universities jumping the bandwagon after hbomberguy's video is cringe
Good luck with your papers at university!
i think a huge part of the definition that’s missing is “a pattern of behavior”. as was pointed out, mistakes happen, people are imperfect, etc. that’s why the known recent plagiarists are so egregious. there isn’t just a singular instance of a missed citation, but a clear pattern of using the work of others without proper attribution.
for people who aren’t familiar with academic citation, but who care about doing ethical work, explaining how to clearly cite things is going to be appreciated. meanwhile, plagiarists do not want to take accountability. even if they admit a mistake was made, they shut down further discussion of the issue and continue to do the unethical behavior.
that’s how i identify plagiarism, at least. i don’t expect College Thesis Level citations from my free entertainment, but i should at least theoretically be able to trace the ‘idea road map’ a creator took when making a video.
it’s also why i’m always fine waiting six months+ for my favorite video essayists. it’s hard work researching and writing! it takes so long! that anyone can do it in a year let alone a couple times a month boggles the mind.
I'm grateful your channel is taking an active role in establishing norms and standards among this community of video essayists. This sort of decentralized coordination is crucial for cultivating a thriving space of intellectual engagement. Otherwise it would slide into aesthetically captivating misinformation, like so much online "content" has in recent years
I get the point of not wanting to stir unnecessary things up, but surely something was done to address the anonymous plagiarist in the video? Did you contact them? Do their viewers know that the ideas were not theirs? Are they still profiting from the plagiarism? Whatever consequences there may be, I think it's infinitely more important to bring the truth to light
I agree with this tbh.
Yeah this is what I was thinking... did she discover an essay youtuber with many subscribers was stealing peoples work and lying to their audience and choose not to do anything about it because...it felt too good??
Yeah, I really think she should say something when she feels prepared to. If someone else were in her position, she'd want them to speak up! It's the right thing to do.
Thank you for saving me 30 minutes
There is always a form of accountability where we can also inform people who have been CONSISTENTLY stolen from (for videos and creators that use total works or books that stuff) so that maybe the creator has to face the person they stole from and have to talk about it. It humanizes the people behind the work we consume, and it also makes plagiarists describe their reasons for doing so. It doesn’t have to be “punishing,” but it does have to be a productive conversation.
It might not be perfect and this isn’t meant to put the onus on the people being stolen from, but if they want to reach out, I think they should be informed.
53:30 "If you use your platform to exploit others, you don't deserve that platform."
But we have no way of taking a platform away from a content creator. RUclips does have that power, but they don't use it. The only tool available to the audience is public awareness and shaming (not harassing) that content creator into changing their behavior. Systemically, we can't enforce reform on here. So we must reduce the harm, instead.
With the above in mind, I feel that not outing plagiarists is bad. In my opinion, you should reach out the anonymous plagiarist and tell them they must remove their content or go public. If they don't, please identify them. I don't think doing nothing with the information is moral, as it allows the deception to continue. If they admit to it, change their behavior, and don't do it again, best result achieved! But intentional plagiarism tends to be a serial offense, because if you don't get caught once... well why not do it again?
In reference to a part of Hbomberguys video: If you catch them once, odds are they rolled those dice a few times before getting caught.
yep drama as last resort only is ther , and working, because youtube doesnt care if you dont make any kind of drama for attention.
To be clear witchhunts bad, thats literally what hbomb did say not to do, harass, and god witchhunts are bad.
But still drama works on social media as social media if all else fails. Like with harassments and assaults, if all avenues are cut, media drama can punish somewhat.
But still its just a reality to get attention, and of couse should be used responsible, but is also a tool, that exists, where youtube else fails usually. Or like a lot sexual asaulter are made in social media a point, because else ther is no justice. With like abuses of power, social media is just a viable way if all fails.
Also, as a viewer and potential consumer of the content in question, I want to know if I’m watching a plagiarist???? So I don’t get brainrot??? I get that there are valid concerns about harassment but I would like to know, check for myself, and then never think about it again.