Would you Change this Fuse Board..? WHY..? Understanding your new Consumer Unit
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- Опубликовано: 24 апр 2024
- In this video we look at the level of circuit protection offered by an old consumer unit with BS 3036 fuses and a 100mA RCD main switch. We then compare it with the level of protection offered by the new replacement fuse box with a type 2 SPD and 30mA type A RCBOs for each final circuit. We talk about the need for the consumer unit to be metal, circuit protection to offer selectivity and AC and DC leakage currents.
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== 🕐 Time Stamps - Cut to the action 🕕 ==
00:00 - Consumer unit upgrade
00:48 - Made of metal
01:19 - 100mA RCCB
01:47 - Time for a break
02:13 - BS3036 fuses
02:43 - Issues when rewiring the fuse
03:22 - Old consumer layout
03:33 - Plastic consumer units
04:03 - New fuse box
04:11 - Type 2 SPD
05:18 - Back EMF
06:21 - NOT a direct lightning strike
06:40 - Main switch
07:12 - Disconnects both line and neutral
07:41 - Types of MCB's
08:27 - RCBO
08:47 - Type A RCBO
09:24 - Say NO to AC RCDs
09:45 - The reason why our RCDs should be type A as a minimum
10:26 - Types of RCDs
11:38 - Why do we leave spare ways
12:35 - Natural earth leakage current explained
13:49 - 9mA
14:50 - Summary
Videos are training aids for City and Guilds (C and G) and EAL courses Level 1, 2, 3 plus AM2, AM2S and AM2E.
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A few little observations:
- SWA not glanded into back of old board
- Two circuits don't appear to be 4 mm2 or larger but have 30 amp fuse carriers (first and second from the left)
Every time I see one of those RCDs I can't help but wonder how these came to be sold in the UK under Wylex and Hackbridge Faraday brands. As far as I can tell, the original design dates back to the 1960s and can be traced to F&G Austria. F&G was initially a German company but during WWII they built a factory in a remote corner of Austria (at that time occupied by Germany) to prevent bombing. After the war this company became independent and is claimed to have built the first production-ready 30 mA RCD.
Around the early 1960s they introduced a very sturdy range of MCBs and RCDs, which looked exactly like the Wylex one in the video, except for having the F&G Neptune logo moulded into the case. The exact same design was produced by eastern German state-owned VEB Elektroschaltgeräte Dresden until the Berlin wall fell. F&G Austria discontinued the design a few years earlier, perhaps in the mid-1980s. A surprising number of these units are still in service, in Austria although most RCDs are 100, 300 or even 500 mA types and therefore replaced as any updating is carried out. The MCBs also predate modern B/C trip curves and provide inferior overload protection.
On the plus side the old Wylex boards have double screw connections which to me always seemed a more secure connection.
Great point 👍🏻
A point I have made previously. Two screws per connection, round terminals ( not square like mcbs) on incoming tail connections and outgoing ways . Shower pull cords and cooker outlets etc had 2 screws per terminal, now it's one big screw but is useless as it just splays the strands and can be wiggled out .
@@barnabybot we should be telling the manufacturers this . Might be a selling point for them to promote
There might not be any truth in this. But a guy I talked to a few years ago worked for SSE . He said in his own home he would never have mcbs in his own home due to the fact he’s seen fires caused by faulty mcbs ..Hence he would only use rewireable or cartridge fuses in his house. I often wonder if there was any truth in what he said.or could it just be down to loose screws? in some ways in old Wylex were far better having the 2 screws on each terminal,excluding the earth.
@@andysims4906 I worked for a network operator for nearly 40 years and the vast majority , if not all, of meter board fires that I attended were due to loose terminals within the consumer units. We were always taught to re-check every connection after cables were installed and dressed. Quite often you would be able to further tighten the terminal screws.
Proving your own point about a level of skill required with rewiring fuses - you illustrated winding the wire the wrong way round the retaining screw, so tightening the screw will tend to push the wire out.
😀👍🏻
Paul you giving your age away. I was about to comment similar
The problem you had with winding the fuse wire the so called right way round was it tended to snap the thinner 5 amp fuse wire . We used to do one end the right way round and the other end the wrong way round , ( for 5 a ) the little washer preventing push out.
When I was still contracting I have updated the fuse carriers to MCB's which plugged straight in in place of the fuse, if they are still available it is a quick and safe way of updating your system.
Did the same retrofit to my Wylex consumer unit. Cost less than fifty quid. I had an external 30ma RCD fitted which looks like the one in the video.
All well and good and legitimate, but you still lack RCD protection, you would either need separate RCDs for each circuit or one RCD for the lot which would give a total blackout if tripped. Recommendation would always be a new fuseboard.
Wylex plug in MCBs are available from Screwfix and Toolstation.
They also offer the major benefit of being able to safely reset a tripped circuit (assuming the fault has cleared itself, e.g. a blown incandescent light bulb that's now open) without having to turn off the main switch. If there's one thing I definitely wouldn't want it's try and insert a fuse carrier with nice fresh fuse wire into a short circuit.
@@Ragnar8504 Best to turn main switch off to do that.
Great video, but I was always taught to put the higher load circuits next to the main switch , keep bus bar less loaded .
Busbar is made of metal, whilst the current along it may vary, the fact it is metal means the entire busbar will rise in temperature regardless of where those high current circuits are placed along it.
Another reason for placing high current circuits close to the main switch is to reduce the length of busbar the current passes through and thereby keep the voltage drop across it to a minimum. This will then result in the highest possible voltage at the load end of the circuit.
But given the length of the cable in the final circuit is going to be considerably longer than the length of the busbar and likely to be of smaller cross sectional area, the voltage drop across the length of the cable is going to be a fair degree higher get than the voltage drop across the busbar.
This then brings in to question whether the voltage drop across the busbar is even worth worrying about, unless you are in an edge case scenario and you are desperate to save every volt or every half volt you can.
And then, finally, the only other reason for doing it, is to reduce the I Squared R loss in the busbar and reduced the wasted energy, which in current (pun intended) times might be worth doing given the now high unit cost of electricity.
@@deang5622 _"Busbar is made of metal, whilst the current along it may vary, the fact it is metal means the entire busbar will rise in temperature regardless of where those high current circuits are placed along it."_
_"And then, finally, the only other reason for doing it, is to reduce the I Squared R loss in the busbar and reduced the wasted energy, which in current (pun intended) times might be worth doing given the now high unit cost of electricity."_
You've basically contradicted yourself. Temperature rise (and power loss) can be minimised by placing the highest current loads closest to the switch. The length of the cable is pretty irrelevant since the cable only carries current to the load it's connected to. The bus bar closest to the switch carries the current for ALL the circuits.
Less loaded?
Great vlog to send customers who may have questions or be non believers .
Thanks for the positive feedback 👍🏻
Brilliant Gary. Keep em coming
Thanks 👍🏻
My Wylex board didn't have any RCD protection, so it's days were numbered anyway. Then one day the electric shower stopped working and I found the 30A fuse carrier had got warm over time, so much so that when i pulled the fuse to check it, the holder broke into two pieces, leaving the live pin in! Nice! The new RCBO board with surge protectors is a fair bit safer!
Hi, getting the same shower fuse burning as well and tripping out. When you replaced consumer unit did you have to rewire that circuit
@@MimiS6000 No I didn't need to rewire the shower circuit, the issue was only with the 30Amp Wylex fuse and holder in the old consumer unit. The new shower RCBO is a 40Amp RCBO anyway, so much safer. I went for the 'Fusebox' 14 way consumer unit with all RCBO's to give me some expansion options for later.
Absolutely brilliant teacher
Thanks for watching 👍🏻
Good shout out as always guys👍
Thanks 👍🏻
Great video going through the advantages that the customer should get if they had their old fuse board upgraded to a modern consumer unit to the latest regulations. But their existing unit was adhering to the regulations at time of design so if that is the case they do not need to replace it but would improve the safety of the installation if they did. Pedantic I know, but hey everyone has to have a hobby.
True… however it’s like having a betamax video recorder when everyone else is streaming.
The board was charged as the property was undergoing major works. The video was to show learners what a new consumer unit can offer however I did leave out AFDD’s this time but will include it in a later video 👍🏻
@@GSHElectrical I always think its more like having a 1950's car, you can tell the customer the obvious benefits of fitting a seatbelt, but it's the customers choice to have it fit, we shouldn't be able to force them. But if they're having the car fully refurbished it should be upto the latest regulations...imo
my home has one of those old units, 4-way without RCB.
Like the loo break Gaz 😁 A very good tuition video. 👍
Thanks for watching and the great feedback 👍🏻
Rimmer would be disappointed. He’d use 3 sheets, one up, one down and one to polish 🤓
This explanation was really informative. I have in my home, the old style Wylex board you showed at the start of the video. Can you please advise how I should go about finding a Qualified Electrician to test my installation with a view to a board change as a minimum, but probably a complete re wire. I live in North London. I don’t want to take a chance on getting in an unqualified person, by calling someone from a newspaper ad. Thank you. Great presentation.
Ask to see their qualification and identify card (with photograph) and membership of an appropriate electrical installation body such as NICEIC.
Great Video. Informative.
Thanks
My home was an ex pub built in the early 1700's with 24 inch thick solid stone walls including the interior walls.
I have a 40+ year old fuse board.
Never had an issue so no need to change it.
It was hilarious watching the sparky turn up with his poxy little battery drill to plumb in and fit the electric shower.
Everything is a fight, nothing is flat, square, level, plumb or easy.
Thanks for commenting and watching 👍🏻
I love my wire fuse board, 40 old years old never missed a beat and never had any of these problems.
I've still got an old steel clad Wylex consumer unit and I've replaced the old outdated re-wirable fuses with plug in breakers as in my experience they're much safer as they trip out MILES faster than any fuse can blow and if there's ever a short circuit in the fixed wiring the cable doesn't get all shot to bits as it does with the old fuses which can make the repair much harder and a miles bigger job.
Yes I would change to introduce RCD to 30ma protection on bathroom lighting and sockets probably would include arc fault detection
The follow up video will introduce AFDD’s 👍🏻
Excellent v log
Thanks
I follow your videos and instruction with great interest as i have a very old CU which is due for replacement. My box looks the same as the one at the start of your video but is non-metal. Having checked the writing on my box i notice that i only have one ring main for the whole house and likewise only one lighting circuit the same. No split for upstairs and downstairs. How can these be split into separate circuits for upstairs and downstairs? Do you have a video to explain how this would be achieved?
Too many variables to answer without an electrician looking at it but you're probably looking at a partial rewire as a minimum. Perhaps you'd go for a full rewire out of choice or necessity.
You only need one lighting circuit. The load from led lights is lower than the load of 60w and 100w when the installation was originally done.
If the installation was originally a TT system - the 100mA rcd may have been a reasonable choice considering the regulations in force at the time.
Superb video, thank you. Would you be kind enough to answer a few questions please. Is it fair to say if (like in this example) a consumer unit that is equipped with RCBO devices, all circuits presented to the box need to be uniformly fitted with this type of protection? In the box within the video, the two spare slots are not RCBO's. If later used this would present an issue as these two channels have zero earth leakage protection and potentially present an unsafe installation. Second question, what load is attached to the "SPD MCB" breaker?
No, not at circuits need to be individually protected by RCBO's. However if you wish to do that, you may.
Question for you Gaz. I have an EVSE fitted during the 17th edition regs. It has a direct connection to the TN earthing (TN-S at the service head). It has no PEN fault protection. How would you code on an EICR?
I would have thought that would be a c2. Surely an earth rod should have been installed?
If the service is TN-S, you didn't need PEN fault protection at the time; TN-C-S is the only earthing arrangement with a PEN conductor and thus the possibility of experiencing a PEN fault. Back when 17th was the norm, you weren't required to assume that it may one day be changed to TN-C-S. It's not compliant with today's standards, but it wasn't installed today; it's compliant with the standard that was in force at the time, so it's a C3. I do recommend you have PEN fault protection installed (or have the EVSE changed to something that has that built-in), simply because your DNO may end up modifying your supply in the future and introducing the possibility of experiencing that fault. This could happen, for example, if, during a periodic inspection, your Ze is noted to be above 0.8 Ohms (the maximum allowed for TN-S). The quickest way for the DNO to fix that is to convert it to TN-C-S at the service head (assuming the new Ze would be below 0.35 Ohms), so that's what they'd probably end up doing.
I'm not a sparks like most of you here, but I worked for 30 years at Klippon and then Phoenix Contact who are the market leaders for Rail Mounted Terminals and PCB Terminals & Connectors, and my question is - based on the comments mentioning the old two-screw connections being better than the newer single screw connections:
- Why are the units not being fitted with spring connections nowadays?
They remove all of the problems that screw connections have.
Torque screwdrivers or X years of experience are not needed at the wiring stage as the spring automatically clamps down with the optimum level of force.
Temperature cycling does not reduce the spring force whereas it does loosen screws.
What am I missing?
Connection resistance is higher. There is another RUclips channel called Great Scott if I recall correctly. They compared the wago blocks with the wire nuts widely used in America. The wagos were better in all respects except one. Skill level needed to connect correctly, integrity under persistent fault current conditions (tested to melting point of the plastic assembly) were all superior for the wago block connector. But the wire nut was superior in terms of connection resistance. The wire nuts exhibited a lower temperature under rated load. That said, the temperatures were still perfectly fine for the wago blocks.
So to answer your question, I think “resistance to change” is the most pertinent reason. Why change something, when what you’ve got works perfectly well, even if the costs in terms of labour and materials are higher? Change is weighed up against risk, and the electrical industry is a rather risk averse. I love wago blocks, but others especially in North America are suspicious.
I'm not sure I would've left the MCBs there for the spare ways. A cowboy may just use it, result is a new circuit with no RCD protection. I would've got a couple more blanks instead.
Great point 👍🏻
They could still take a blank out and just put a breaker in..
@@kieranthomas8558 And not always the same make.
Hi Gaz I was thinking about the possible problems we may have with DC leakage in our electrical system’s from thing like phone chargers washing machines or even the clock/ timer on electric cookers ?
Now i’am not saying it’s wrong but if DC leakage is a problem isn’t it more likely to be coursed by smart meters as they are hard wired in to the system not just plugged in to the nearest socket ? We all know how much electronics smart meters have inside them , so are they adding to the problem? If so get rid of them and it may solve the problem?
See I can be a good boy sometimes and ask sensible question’s . 🤣 I have always had a lot of respect for you guys. I get annoyed when I give a opinion and some idiot turns it into an argument like yesterday on one of Gary’s videos.
Any DC using equipment can leak DC current if the right conditions occur
Smart meters are on the other side of the RCD...
Any reason you couldn't swap the rewireable fuse carriers with rated breakers/rcd. I remember many years ago this being done as the unit and wiring and main breaker was fine!!
It's been 13 our 14 years ago we had our old school cu like shown replaced with a newer plastic one when we had our kitchen done
I literally threw away the replacement fuse wire earlier this week
Now the entire house is being rewired room by room I'm still looking into what the best future proof cu and breaker type at the end of the day in a few months
Any advice would be appreciated
Currently have a 14 way (12 populated) with a 100a fuse but we will also need to add in the fire alarm circuit in the future as its currently battery rather than wired (it's wired, just not connected)
Thanks
Moving forward then, if your not using a competent diligent electrician, as a minimum id recommend that you need to Upgrade the cu to metal enclosure with builtin spd T2, all circuits to be A type rcbos, and all socket circuits upto 32A to have afdds. Oh and we're waiting for them to bring out socket outlets with type 3 surge protection built in and pen fault devices for the cu, we are so slow in the UK for this kind of thing, but all of the above should see you through to the 19th edition😉
@@brianhewitt8618 see, I understood what you said there, but I just know I'm going to be in a position where I'll spend loads of money getting things done and then they'll change the rules again 🤣
And we are not in a position to have the entire house in bits so the loft is fine, the first floor is done, there's enough wire floating about to finish off the down stairs sockets when the time arrives to make a mess
Which is when the cu will get changed
Just want to know what to ask him to fit if he's fitting something else instead 👍
@@brianhewitt8618 he’s also going to need deep pockets 😉
If by fire alarm circuit you mean for mains powered smoke detectors they should be wired in with the local lighting circuits. The idea behind this is if they were on a separate circuit and it tripped you wouldn't know for a while until the batteries died . If it was on with the lights you would realise straight away and fix it or you would be in the dark .
Unfortunately it's hard to know right now what the best option is for future proofing.
Afaict Hager have historically been the best at maintaining compatibility. Their arc fault detection products however leave a lot to be desired. They are two modules wide, are not designed for the busbar styles we typically use in the UK and do not integrate RCD protection, so need to be used in conjunction with a seperate RCD or RCBO.
Other brands offer single module combination RCBO/AFDD devices but haven't been as good at maintianing compatibility and/or are pretty new to the market.
Looks like my old fuse board except mine was an 8 way. Not long had it replaced with a 10 way with the two rcd’s as shown in the replacement, along with the old single 30amp fuse box in the garden shed that powered a few sockets and lights. (Lights were fused down using 5 amp spur from 30 amp) and now has a 32 & 6 amp garage fuse box. The old unit had to go as the trip had a fault and it had a 100 Ma trip. You’ve probably guessed I’m no sparky by my terminology🙂. No I didn’t replace it, had a sparks do it. I used to be ok at adding a spur in the old days, not that you can do that now unless a competent sparky, but replacing a fuse box is a far different matter and not a diy job no matter how much you think you know. A man’s got to know his limitations if he wants to avoid electrocuting himself or burning his house down.
Hi can you inform me.. How match it cost me if i want change or update the old cunsomer unit very basic one with theree or foylur fuses in eara lndond or you can make video when you doing the job
Thanks
When my daughter and her children moved in my old Wylex board made me very nervous so I weighed up the risks of changing it out myself Vs the risk of fire and electrocution. I'm not a sparky but I do have an HNC in electronic engineering and decided I was sufficiently competent to do the job so I bought a Kewtech meter which is very nice bit of test kit, metal CU board and RCBOs for all circuits and now I'm much happier. Sure, I know it's notifiable work that needs signing off but I trust my own work far more than someone I don't know. EG when some fella popped round to change out to a smart meter there was no safe isolation, no lock off, no paper work and no testing he just shoved it in and left, personally, I thought he was more like a contractor called in by the energy companies for that specific task.
I will wait for the sparkies to catch their breaths and compose themselves before breathing venom my way 😁
No venom required, you have improved an installation and by the sound of it have the ability to ensure that the results were all satisfactory. You do not sound like 'dave from the pub' type. Obviously you would have taken time to know the earthing arrangement, know its maximum permissible values, check this with your meter, then check all following results from testing to ensure you would achieve your disconnection times etc. The paperwork is important for renting or selling, other than that - the paperwork is imo the least valuable. A safe install is the important thing here. Bonding conductors in place and readings below max permissible etc.
Sadly there are too many people that 'have a go' but get it wrong - sure it works, but it is far from compliant and not close to safe.
I have met electrical engineers and electricians that work in specific fields that cannot carry out a basic install in most domestic and commercial settings because they arent practised in it. Builders + Landlords used to be the worst but thankfully the new legislation is slowly eradicating the shoddy ones as they have to have the paperwork to let it out.
I personally hate consumer unit changes, we always test before we change it so we can make the landlord aware of any additional work required to bring it upto compliance - if not you would have to rectify the issues after the change but before it is energised and this can be costly / unexpected!
Give me a rewire anyday, i know the quality of the install from top to bottom then lol (no limitations on concealed cables etc)
Well done and glad you managed to stay safe while carrying the work out mate!
@@danielfisher2954 if a circuit falls above the max zs value which is on an existing installation ect what is the rule then?
Also on a TT u might have a zs of 50 ohms ect. Where that us acceptable but it won't operate the protective device under an earth fault. So install rcd protection required if zs exceeded for the above reasons?
Zs needs to be brought below max zs. For the TT, add earth rods
For circuits you have multiple options, change the type of MCB from say D to a C or even B (depends on circuits start up current)
Run an overlay earth? We do this on SWA installs to bring the Zs down
You could break the circuit and turn it into two circuits. Ring circuit into two radials on 20a MCB will give higher max zs and lower readings.
There are always alternate methods but you have to see which is right, which the customer can afford etc.
Hope I've been able to help, still half asleep and probably just rambling haha
@@danielfisher2954 How can a tt system ne allowed up to 200 ohms though?
@@carlmarquardt994 that is only with 'additional protection' in the form of a 30ma RCD. While the 200 ohms is compliant, it is preferred to have it lower.
That being said, we recently had a reading of 24ohms on an overhead supply. The main earth coming from the rod was only 4mm. I spoke to UK power networks who maintain the infrastructure in my area.
If the reading exceeds 20 ohms, it is considered a fail by then and needs rectification. On a TT the homeowner is responsible for the cable from the rod to the DB, UK power networks are only responsible for the rod itself. We changed the cable to 16mm and it brought the reading down under 20 ohms
Lots of well installed old wylex rewireable fuse boards have been removed and poorly installed , poorly designed consumer units put in their place . The old wylex had good design features which are not in modern consumer units . It's a shame that everything is now the cheapest available thing that's installed.
Many great points - thanks Gaz 👍🏻
@@GSHElectrical the main point is that cables aren't square, so why do we have square box terminals on mcbs ? The old wylex had 2 screws per termination . New boards it's one . Poor design and cheapness
Chill out Dennis. They’re not compliant anymore. End of
@@fitzanderson1980 why ?
When you recommend changing a db to the client the usual reply is " well it's been ok for the last 40 yrs " , very true but have they just been lucky .
No they are perfectly fine
Guarantee any new panel will trip far more often and honestly be no safer unless someone does something dumb
Could you elaborate a bit more about the isolator switch?
Understanding Your Consumer Unit Layout, Identifying Conductors, SPD's, MCB’s and RCD's (fuse box)
ruclips.net/video/1qerkAYMRtQ/видео.html
Has anyone seen an old installation protected with 16A for ring sockets upstairs and 16A for the ground floor? Would that be compliant with the regs? Pretty sure said property was formerly converted into apartments. Has a CU inside and outside alleyway has another CU. There are two showers in the property but no circuits in the CU indoors.
have you got a video on choosing an electrician (for this type of job)?
Sparkys usually charge based upon the customers preceived ability to pay their over inflated rates.
Why do you fit a 32 amp mcb before the surge arrestor, why not wire the surge arrestor using 16 mmm wire after the main switch?
That’s how fuse box do it 👍🏻
If the spd does not have overcurrent protection built in then the purpose of the mcb is to prevent the the main supplier fuse from blowing sending the property in to the stone age
Depends on the manufacturer. Hager have inbuilt protection to their type 2 SPD’s so do not require an additional mcb.
This post is not directed at Gary hayers, or any one personally. It is just my own personal opinion/ observation.
Health and safety executive’s note in BS7671 AMENDMENT 2 existing installations that have been installed in accordance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations may not comply with the 18th edition in every respect this does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require up grading .
Page 99 off the onsite guide ,
Installers adding or amending circuits in dwellings will encounter older consumer units,ie those not complying with regulation 421.1.201 for many years to come , It is important that installers do not advise the replacement of consumer units simply because they do not comply with the current version of BS7671 . To ensure the ongoing use of such enclosures and assemblies, the installer must ensure the following:
You can read the rest your self if you can be bothered. But of course a few sparks don’t bother to read it as long as they can boost their bank balance they will continue do unnecessary CU changes .but who am I to argue i’am just a humble spark who’s opinion means nothing .
Fantastic video as always Gaz.
This installation was having a roof extension hence the board change to accommodate the new final circuits… NOT charging for unnecessary work…
@@GSHElectrical page 99 onsite guide installers adding or amending circuits. . It can’t be any clearer .
Also I did not say you were doing it to boost your bank balance I said that why most sparks do CU changes . You made a good point about rewireble fuses and people not replacing the fuse wire with the correct size. That’s not our problem we can’t prevent people doing such things like wise we can’t prevent them from doing there own electrical work. We can only do a visual inspection looking for signs of damage overheating burning exposed conductive parts, and if all is well we then test in accordance with the current edition of BS7671 and if our test results are as specified in BS7671 the we can sign it of as safe for continued service. We do not have the right or legal offorrety to tell the client what they can or can’t do in there own home . What they do once we have left is down to them . Also the regs can not and should not be back dated.
But as usual my opinion means nothing.
@@GSHElectrical still not a reason to change the CU as the existing circuit could be extended.
@@Dog-whisperer7494 your opinion 👍🏻
@@GSHElectrical not just my opinion health and safety executive’s note in BS7671 and the note on page 99 of the onsite guide is as clear as glass . But hey if you want to ignore it that’s up to you,
You may not like me or my comments. But you know i’am right and that’s what you don’t like.
Toilet roll 😅😅
Thanks for your excellent videos explaining every details 👍🙏
👍🏻
Thanks for commenting and watching 👍🏻
If you do an eicr on a dual RCD board and the leakage does exceed the 30% rule, does it get coded at all.
Great question
C3
@@GSHElectrical if the rule is based on being more related to nuisance tripping as opposed to safety I guess it’s unlikely to be a fail and more of a recommendation
If your 70plus living with that yes keep it ,but honestly it should be updated …years ago the worst thing about them was 15 amp fuse wire in 5amp fuses and I’ve seen a metal hanger been cut and put in a 30 amp fuse ..I’ve seen nails in them plastic fuse cover removed ..( massive fire risk).. as I done my apprenticeship in the 70s there were loads around , and the mem boxes with porcelain fuses today it has been improved massively , better tools , better equipment , ie test equipment .. in my days at college my lap top was a pencil , rubber, sharpener ..,
We had an EICR done on a house, the electrician included an estimate on the back for changing the consumer unit "so it would be 18th edition compliant". The one already there was plastic, but fitted by Norweb to a high standard. My wife went in and paid before I could stop her, within 10 mins (I'm not exaggerating) the consumer unit was ripped out and replaced, when I asked for the EICR report to see how it was rated, he denied there was a EICR form for an installation less than 100 amps, even after I printed one out for him, (and paid for it), and said the notification for change of consumer unit was all that was needed. The letting agents say he has done lots of these changes for them, I'm not surprised at £750 a pop.
Massive thanks for your input 👍🏻
@@GSHElectrical I left the industry 8 years ago, but it never leaves you, and I try to keep up with new ideas. Thanks for your channel!
How should ac rcds be coded whilst carrying out an eicr going forward??
C3
@@GSHElectrical ok how about if it is a tt system with one ac 30mA upfront Rcd? So the Rcd in this case is providing fault protection, would this then warrant a c2 code?
I really wouldn't want to be without a 30ma RCD. What's 100ma just used to protect property.
No mention of Ka rating of rcbo or main switch ie if sub station close by the Ka rating would need to go as a example 3KA to 8KA
Now what does Guidance Note 3 say about fault currents in domestic CUs where the service cut-out fuse will save your bacon ;)
why doesn't the kitchen have its own socket circuit on that consumer unit? I appreciate it is an example but if all sockets blew you could loose your fridge or freezer being on the same circuit.
Is a modern consumer unit likely to trip if it upgraded an old fuse box in a house with 50 year old wiring that really needs a rewire? i.e. Both should be replaced at the same time.
Fault protection, overload protection, protection against direct & indirect contact. All in a days work
manufacturers are you watching, look a the twisting of the MCB's + Main Switch, it's hard even when you use a torque wench to keep these from curling out of place,
I don't know if they are still available, but those Wylex fuses could be replaced with MCBs (at a cost). I did that and added a separate 30mA RCD.
Stock image of a nylon compression gland termination on some SY in an Air Con unit. Horrid but unsurprising unfortunately
Why are Fuseboard RCBOs so much cheaper than the other brands?
Why is there SPD so much cheaper than other more established brands?
Were we just getting ripped off before fuseboard came along?
Pass on price I just went with the images Marcus sent me. Massive thanks for watching and commenting. Gaz 👍🏻
@@GSHElectrical Always watch as many of your videos as I possibly can I use them as CPDs.
So would i change it?
Absoloutly i would personally, along with the wiring but that's just me.
Breakers, RCD's, OCP, UV all being my primary reasons.
My secondary would be to accomadte my 3 way mechanical interlocks, that allow me to switch to Batterys or even a (small) generator.
But does it need changing, well if its just a house bored, the wiring passes inspection and its all visually good, id probably leave it as, it may not be as safe as a modern install would be, but it would be in my opinion acceptable.
Disclosure - I don't do single phase installs or residential, all my electrical training and experience is in a datacenter and ill stick to that [Teres someone around to stop me doing anything catastrophic] its also mostly DC in the datacentre these days anyways, AC at hardware levels ain't really a thing anymore
How many type 2 surge incidents a year occur that lead to damage to installed equipment country wide? Does anyone have the stats? 10'000, 1000, 100? Does anyone Know?
why doesn't the SPD cartridge just plug-in to the main switch, would save a slot and an MCB.
God I miss the Crabtree C50
😀👍🏻
New CU is missing the inslection/testing dates 😂
Great observation 👀😂
the new board - why does it have an unmarked RCBO, and is leaving spare MCBs a good idea, I'd prefer to see blanks or RCBOs
Thanks for adding you thoughts 👍🏻
Gaz I do hope you’re not taking my comments personally. I just giving my opinion. And showing we should take a bit notice from the HSE notes .
See I can be a good boy sometimes and ask sensible question’s . 🤣 I have always had a lot of respect for you guys. I get annoyed when I give a opinion and some idiot turns it into an argument like yesterday.
My head is getting done by the lean of the breakers, leading to the tiny gap on the left of each 😔
👀 thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏻
Question anybody looks like my fuse board whats the ish est cost new Consumer Unit fitted I had some crazy prices ..(i known its subjective) to the Consumer Unit and other things
One thing I don't understand about the regulations: our house was built in the 1960s and the lighting circuit doesn't have an earth wire. We recently had a new extension built which obviously had to be wired to the latest standards. The electrician said that if he replaced our old consumer unit (with wired fuses) with a new one the whole house would have to be rewired. So what he did was install a new consumer unit just for the extension and new circuits. The old unit could remain for the existing wiring.
I cannot understand why an old unit cannot be replaced with a new one. Obviously the old lighting circuit is not as safe as one with earth wiring but the overall safety of the old installation would be far greater with a modern consumer unit than it is now. It doesn't make sense that the regulations don't allow an upgrade that would greatly improve the safety of an old installation without having to commit to completely replace the old installation, but they do allow the old installation, with its lower level of safety, to remain in place.
Can someone explain the logic of this?
As far as I am aware there is no regulation that requires a consumer unit, which doesn’t conform to the current regulations to be upgraded to one that does. It is only when modifications to the existing installation e.g. adding a new ring circuit or adding a garden shed supply feed etc. are to added that the consumer unit would be required to be upgraded to satisfy the current regulations.
If you think about it, there must be millions of consumer units in use that don’t conform, and you cannot expect every body to upgrade just because they don’t. Regulations can change on a frequent basis and again you couldn’t expect householders and the like to continually upgrade every time there were to be a change to the requirements. I can see where your electrician is coming from and tend to agree with him, but then I’m not an expert. Like the old saying, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
@@DaveH-zl3vd that's the thing, I would like to upgrade the consumer unit but I don't want to have the house rewired just because of the lack of earthed lighting circuit, but apparently that's not possible. I think the argument was that if he replaced the consumer unit he would have to certify the whole installation as meeting the current standard, which of course it wouldn't even though it would still be safer than it was before!
I wonder why the electrician said that your whole house would have to be rewired, did he give you you specific reasons?
@@DaveH-zl3vd well basically like I said above i.e. that he'd have to sign off an installation that wasn't fully compliant with the regulations because the lighting circuit had no earth.
The electrician is playing safe. He doesn't want to sign it off, just only doing the upgrade of the consumer unit.
But the fact is, if you upgrade to a new consumer unit with RCBO's specifically put on the lighting circuit, then you're covered, in terms of an electrocution risk. Put in an AFD too
Sorry but as an Industrial JIB GOLD CARD APPROVED Electrician of 50 years and have never seen avoltage surge in the hundreds if contracts I've worked on or hundreds of my workmates have never seen it so in my humble opinion it is just another expensive unit not required in domestic dwellings,but yes I would change the board for an 18th edition metal consumer unit ,but unlike most modern sparks I'm a great beleiver in ringmain circuits in domestic dwellings for kitchens and I've never wired a ringmain in 2.5mm cable we would wire ringmain circuits in 4mm minimum sometimes if the area we were wiring was of a certain size we would sometimes wire in 6mm
Up for on down for off, European, opposite to all other switches in the house, surge never to be replaced each appliance needs to have it built in not miles away in the dB, crazy world
All circuits should really have their own RCD when the supply is a TT type, the one where you don't get a proper earth in the supply cable. And an elcb can be nuisance tripped by leakage current in the earth caused by leakage currents in the mains input filters of many modern switched mode power supplies which are now very widespread in all manner of modern electronic appliances, and in little AC adapters and chargers and those filter components in those power supplies are a legal requirement so that they meet EMC requirements to prevent interference travelling back down the mains wiring and interfering with vital life support systems such as kidney dialysis which some folk depend on.
Why a double pole main switch? Do you not connect the Neutral Conductor to Earth where the supply enters the building? So the Neutral is at Earth potential, no need to switch it! In New Zealand we also strap the Neutral and Earth Bus bars together inside the fuse box, we do not switch the neutral at the Distribution board, just the Active (Live). Why bother having a double pole switch, why do you switch the Neutral??
Double pole switch is safest.
No chance of any voltage down stream from it when it is in the off position
You are relying on the earth being present to ensure safety and that might not be the case.
I need my CU replacing. I have an old wylex CU similar to the one featured. I had a fire in my conservatory a few years ago, I left a small Lipo battery on charge overnight. The battery burst into flames. Luckily for me and family the fire was contained in the conservatory, I didn't know it at the time but polycarbonate roofing is fire retardant so the fire burned out. If I had left the patio door open it would've took the house and us. My question is, what would have prevented this (apart from my stupidity of leaving a battery on charge). Would an RCD be enough or MCB, RCBO?
None, the battery charger is at fault.
@@tresslerj1985 never leave a charger unattended
@@barnabybot I’m pretty much certain that an AFDD would not have stopped this. When lipos attack, it’s because the battery itself just gives up the ghost. Not anything to do with bad contacts or the 230V side at all, so it shouldn’t be something the AFDD can detect at all.
Would blame the charger. The battery in this case would be isolated from the mains by the charger's double wound transformer whether the charger has a traditional linear or a switchmode supply.
@@JasperJanssen All sounds very worrying. You'd think the MCB would at least trip if there is a raging electrical fire. Not surprised my antique CU kept feeding power but I'd like to think if this is whole thing melted then the contacts would fuse and trip. This fire was serious, nearly killed us. I want to upgrade my CU but from what you guys are saying there seems little point
Did he say B6 oh no you sunk my battleship
😂
I've just fitted a fully RCBO csu to a customer ( AB TYPE) & THE CUSTOMER insists on turning off the double socket & unplugging the dishwasher which quite often knocks the RCBO out !!! The dishwasher is new & works perfectly. Should i change the kitchen ring 32a RCBO for a differnt style such as an B curve ? Or tell the customer to buy a cleaning brush & do away with the dishwasher !!
What’s triggering? The MCB side or the RCD side? One would expect the RCD side, but it’s pretty damn weird for it to trigger on removal of a plug, especially while the socket is turned off.
You could try a socket with a dual pole switch, I believe those are allowed in the UK. Then it should at least not trigger on plug removal, although it might instead trigger on the switching of the neutral.
@@JasperJanssen its definatly the rcd side. When the dishwasher is turned off ( by its own button) the wall switch gets turned off & thats when it knocks out the rcbo.
Customer until last week had an old csu with sepearate rcd so i changed it for new csu with all RCBO'S because i assumed having the whole installation hanging on 1 main rcd wasnt good. I was thinking of getting a 13Amp plug in filter for dishwasher.
Its a strange issue.
@@merlin5476 well, anyway, if it’s the RCD side that trips then it doesn’t matter whether it’s B/C/D curve on the MCB side of the RCBO, so changing that out won’t help.
I’m thinking maybe some form of back EMF spike that gets sent up the neutral when you disconnect the line?
@@JasperJanssen back EMF is what i thought too, i think a new crabtree D/P socket is in order & install it where the customer wont keep pulling it out, if it persists i will put a filter socket in 👍
Looks like a tiny panel for a whole house...we have bout 25-30 breakers usually
What country are you in..?
USA? They don't do ring mains but every plug is a radial spur?
In the UK the old houses normally had 2 light circuits ( up stairs and down ) and one power ring
Plus something for a cooker . Old electrician here
230v never plugged my loop tester in and seen 230v in my life 42 years all ways over 240v
It's my opinion if the people running our industry were serious about safety in the world of electricity they would many years ago pushed for it to be illegal for anybody not qualified in the electrical trade to be able to carry out any work on an electrical system but they haven't and won't,for many years men at the top of this industry politicians,employers with the help of top union officials have attempted to deskill this industry for decades by allowing non skilled people into our industry ,my vast experience in this industry has shown me what has happened and frankly I'm glad that I am retired because what I have witnessed over the last 2 decades in this industry is horrendous
we only have one RCD for the entire house and there has never been any issues,.
Until it trips in the night time and your entire property is plunged into darkness.
I don't like that Fusebox board. The breakers are all leaning to the right. It's a bad design of the din rail-ish mounting, which affects fitting the lid.
Massive thanks for your input 👍🏻
You wound the fuse wire the wrong way round the screw !!!
Any electrician who can't re-wire a fuse because it "requires a certain level of skill" is in the wrong job!
Yes 100 percent replace...1. Superior overload protection in terms of rated amps. 2. Speed of disconection.3. Ability to set type rating for reduction of nuisance tripping. 4. Ease of resetting. 5. Split loads.....
Ffs wylex ars outdated crap. If correctly installed a modern fuse box is just safer and Superior....
Will trip more for no reason, will cost a fortune, speed of trip is irrelevant. It works its stable not all modernisation is a plus as in arc units !
As an Industrial JIB GOLD CARD APPROVED Electrician of 50 years:I gree with you that the consumer unit does need changing but that's where our agreement ends:I don't think the surge protection unit is justified for epically for rural domestic properties :over my 50 years in the industry with hundreds of industrial workmates and many domestic electrician friends none of them have come across voltage surge in any rural domestic properties:I live only 50 yards from a transformer which did lose power and it was restored ño voltage surge:the transformer was recently isolated and the transformer changed to a new one again when powered up no voltage surge so I think you are just following the status quo with no justification for them being fitted.dual boards are still being sold and as for those arc rcbos:who the he'll is going to pay that outrageous price for them:it's the same as this torque screwdriver nonsense because as you know 75% of an installations connections are away from the consumer unit or distribution board yet you are just torqueing at the board you can't torque connectors or at light fittings or switches because you will end up with a pile of broken parts:if the industry had any concerns about loose connections the would have insisted years ago that any connections at consumer units or distribution boards that the final connections should be tinned or have barrel crimps fitted and for high amp units Allen keys madatory:just a thought
Sorry I don't agree that most domestic dwellings of average size doesn't require the whole board to be wired in rcbos ,its not rocket science to switch off all the circuits covered by the rcd that has tripped ,switch the rcd back on then in sequence turn each circuit back on until one trips the rcd then investigate the fault but leave all the other circuits energised
Yes and no.
If it's not broke dont fix it
So glad i left housebashing behind over 10 yr ago. What a lot of boring old shit. Seems more and more desined to make money for manufacturers too.
That's way too much bog roll.....
O…
If it's not broken and it fits its purpose then, why fix it. Money is scarce and new installations cost.
Why fix it? To make it safer. To prevent electrocution. Or doesn't that matter to you?
I would rather be alive with a bit less money. No point being the richest man in the grave yard. 😅 Just wait for AFDs to come in properly they cost Evan more than the RCBOs
@@haydenclark812 Sledge hammer to knock in a tin tack. It's going to get worse.
@@haydenclark812affds will come down. Rcbos were eye watering when they first came out as well.
@@haydenclark812think the point is, you’re less likely to be in the graveyard (prematurely). 🫢
Am I the only one that saw it? Why you sat on toilet
😊