One weird thing i realized a while back as a toplaner is that if you play ignite vs TP there are scenarios in wich you kill your opponent (or force him back, but let's say straight up kill for now) and still lose lane. If in the Fiora example GP committed to fighting lv 1, died with the FIora being 30% HP and then TP'd back he'd probably be able to freeze the wave on the Fiota, since Fiora's waveclear is non existent and GP can leverage his big HP advantage by rushing lv 2. Since death timers are so short in the first few minutes weirdly enough dying lv 1 and freezing as soon as you respawn is very possible against low waveclear champs or champs that are not particularly stronger than you. The closer the MU is the worst ignite is IMO, since you will win the fight with very low HP and you wont be able to crash the wave before the opponent TPs and freezes. Besides this fighting the opponent with Ignite vs TP when the enemy wave pushes to you is almost always a bad idea, a lot of champs wont be able to crush a wave that is pushing to them even around 7-8 minutes, so even if you kill the opponent you end up losing 1-3 waves. Often running Ignite vs TP when i wasn't in a dominant matchup or with an early waveclear champion i ended up killing the opponent only to end up 15 CS and one level behind , resulting in a net loss. Im not saying the video is wrong, im pointing out something important IMO (leverageing Ignite only when you know you'll be able to crash the wave) as well as pointing out something i personally struggle with xD This is the whole reason why im such a big enjoyer of TP Ignite :D
While that's true, it heavily depends on waveclear. If renekton or jayce or something gets a kill even early on, he can probably shove the wave and recall before the 10 or so seconds of recall + tp timing.
This makes sense haha. My favorite strategy is to take teleport mid. I don't shove usually, but instead just constantly prevent the enemy w/ ignite from getting any sort of meaningful crash with my waveclear and poke. Eventually they're in a super awkward situation and I just get to abuse teleport to win the lane.
Whether you value HP or resistances more on the tank in question. For Rammus, more resistances equals more damage, so he would usually want Jak'Sho. For Mundo, more health means more powerful W, R, and passive, so he would usually want Heartsteel. For some tanks it's harder to tell what they like better and it's not as clear.
Sometimes depends on champ, and whether they specifically scale better with health or resistances. If its a tank that doesnt something specific, theres a few ways to go about it. If the enemy has a lot of percent health damage, you dont want to stack too much health, so jaksho would be a better option. Heartsteel is also unique based on whether you can get the stack or not. Some champs just dont have ways to get close to proc it consistently. And since the item heavily relies on stacking it, its not worth going if you cant get them.
One question... you said to take ignite when it can flip a lv 1 matchup on its head and allow you to get push. But suppose the enemy that usually beats you ALSO takes ignite. Now the situation is the same as before, no? Wouldn't you have been better off going TP then? Seems like taking ignite when you're the losing side of the lv1 matchup is a gamble that either pays off in a big way or potentially puts you way behind from the outset. It seems like taking TP would be the much safer option.
this guide is weird. its aimed at low elo players (bronze/silver) but says "pick one depending on the match up which you have to know how it works out", which i feel like isnt something low elo players are particular good evaluating at. this leaves almost more questions thans answers.
Wait but like the midgame though Youre advertising "this is when tp shines, this is when ignite shines" but by taking ignite you also cut off your legs in midgame, which is especially painful for splitpush heavy characters who like flanking such as fiora or camille Thats obviously also why you basically never see non-tp in proplay The way you explain it here, ignite is just better (you can force push with ignite, get a reset, opponent trades tp and you have far lower CD) whenever it actually does something) but in my head the tradeoff is more like ignite is a) riskier (die to a gank and lose the game right there), b) borderline worthless after 15 minutes c) capable of flipping an entire lane on its own while tp is a) more reliable b) harder to use c) better in midgame
You have to remember this is a video meant to help as many people as possible, and most people aren't pro players, most players are in silver or bronze. The most important things in these ranks is a good early game. I could make a 40minuite long video about every detail but that won't be relevant to 99% of players and takes focus away from the simple things that will help people the most :D
@@CoachRogue copers without laning fundamental understanding or ppl with no fingers put so much overrated importance on mid-late game macro when 99% of solo q climbing is laning
It takes a long time until TP becomes a powerhouse of a summoner - basically, post-lane. And ignite is nowhere near useless mid-lategame. In that sense, tp is actually far less reliable, because teh game may very well be over by the time it is a good summoner. Early on, it is more of a crutch that prevents losing lane very early. And the risk really depends on the champ/matchup.
@@mert111 Wait but thats such a delu thing to say things can still have advantages that arent just laning wtf if 99% of soloq climbing is laning then i am the best midgame player history has ever seen, cause macro got me to high elo
@@brisca1668 u can climb thru macro what I mean it the most guaranteed and reliable way to climb is to always win lane and its also the best direct way to improve individual skill so its what most people should focus on mastering. otherwise u can climb in many diff ways ofc.
Doesn't a lot of the theory in this vid basically fly out of the window in ignite vs ignite games(which are extremely common these days)? Aside from that, TP has such a giant CD that I find it hard to justify these days. Ignite is just up so much more often it's hardly comparable.
Yup, TP is worthless most of the time. You forfeit laning power for something only effective after 14 minutes. Meanwhile in that time you can use Ignite like 4 times to kill the enemy laner, get at least 2 3 plates on your lane a potential tower with Herald. Even after 14 minutes where Tp shines, your team and you need to be at least on the same lv with the enemy team for Tp counter fight to have any advantages outcome.
In the video I mention how bad it is to take Ignite and lose push, in the Ignite vs Ignite matchup this is essentially the case. One person will lose push despite commiting to taking Ignite, instantly forfeiting the main reason you might have for taking it in the first place. (This is far more so the case in top lane tho)
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One weird thing i realized a while back as a toplaner is that if you play ignite vs TP there are scenarios in wich you kill your opponent (or force him back, but let's say straight up kill for now) and still lose lane. If in the Fiora example GP committed to fighting lv 1, died with the FIora being 30% HP and then TP'd back he'd probably be able to freeze the wave on the Fiota, since Fiora's waveclear is non existent and GP can leverage his big HP advantage by rushing lv 2. Since death timers are so short in the first few minutes weirdly enough dying lv 1 and freezing as soon as you respawn is very possible against low waveclear champs or champs that are not particularly stronger than you. The closer the MU is the worst ignite is IMO, since you will win the fight with very low HP and you wont be able to crash the wave before the opponent TPs and freezes.
Besides this fighting the opponent with Ignite vs TP when the enemy wave pushes to you is almost always a bad idea, a lot of champs wont be able to crush a wave that is pushing to them even around 7-8 minutes, so even if you kill the opponent you end up losing 1-3 waves.
Often running Ignite vs TP when i wasn't in a dominant matchup or with an early waveclear champion i ended up killing the opponent only to end up 15 CS and one level behind , resulting in a net loss.
Im not saying the video is wrong, im pointing out something important IMO (leverageing Ignite only when you know you'll be able to crash the wave) as well as pointing out something i personally struggle with xD
This is the whole reason why im such a big enjoyer of TP Ignite :D
While that's true, it heavily depends on waveclear. If renekton or jayce or something gets a kill even early on, he can probably shove the wave and recall before the 10 or so seconds of recall + tp timing.
@@brubie7584 Yeah, that's why champs like Renekton or Riven run ignite most of the time, especially around Plat and DIamond elo
you right!
This makes sense haha. My favorite strategy is to take teleport mid. I don't shove usually, but instead just constantly prevent the enemy w/ ignite from getting any sort of meaningful crash with my waveclear and poke. Eventually they're in a super awkward situation and I just get to abuse teleport to win the lane.
can you please explain the difference between jaksho and heartsteel and when to take either one on tanks?
Hey for sure I'll get around to it but I have some other ideas i wanna do first.
In the meantime checkout probuilds and copy what pro players do!
Whether you value HP or resistances more on the tank in question. For Rammus, more resistances equals more damage, so he would usually want Jak'Sho. For Mundo, more health means more powerful W, R, and passive, so he would usually want Heartsteel. For some tanks it's harder to tell what they like better and it's not as clear.
Sometimes depends on champ, and whether they specifically scale better with health or resistances. If its a tank that doesnt something specific, theres a few ways to go about it. If the enemy has a lot of percent health damage, you dont want to stack too much health, so jaksho would be a better option. Heartsteel is also unique based on whether you can get the stack or not. Some champs just dont have ways to get close to proc it consistently. And since the item heavily relies on stacking it, its not worth going if you cant get them.
Thanks, now I know how to argue the use of teleport for support )
LOL
the most underrated league channel, u the goat
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One question... you said to take ignite when it can flip a lv 1 matchup on its head and allow you to get push. But suppose the enemy that usually beats you ALSO takes ignite. Now the situation is the same as before, no? Wouldn't you have been better off going TP then? Seems like taking ignite when you're the losing side of the lv1 matchup is a gamble that either pays off in a big way or potentially puts you way behind from the outset. It seems like taking TP would be the much safer option.
I use TP + Ignite, Flash is inutile to me, in top lane.
can you ADC videos please? thanks
I run shaco top why choose?
this guide is weird. its aimed at low elo players (bronze/silver) but says "pick one depending on the match up which you have to know how it works out", which i feel like isnt something low elo players are particular good evaluating at. this leaves almost more questions thans answers.
Wait but like the midgame though
Youre advertising "this is when tp shines, this is when ignite shines" but by taking ignite you also cut off your legs in midgame, which is especially painful for splitpush heavy characters who like flanking such as fiora or camille
Thats obviously also why you basically never see non-tp in proplay
The way you explain it here, ignite is just better (you can force push with ignite, get a reset, opponent trades tp and you have far lower CD) whenever it actually does something) but in my head the tradeoff is more like
ignite is a) riskier (die to a gank and lose the game right there), b) borderline worthless after 15 minutes c) capable of flipping an entire lane on its own while tp is a) more reliable b) harder to use c) better in midgame
You have to remember this is a video meant to help as many people as possible, and most people aren't pro players, most players are in silver or bronze. The most important things in these ranks is a good early game. I could make a 40minuite long video about every detail but that won't be relevant to 99% of players and takes focus away from the simple things that will help people the most :D
@@CoachRogue copers without laning fundamental understanding or ppl with no fingers put so much overrated importance on mid-late game macro when 99% of solo q climbing is laning
It takes a long time until TP becomes a powerhouse of a summoner - basically, post-lane. And ignite is nowhere near useless mid-lategame.
In that sense, tp is actually far less reliable, because teh game may very well be over by the time it is a good summoner. Early on, it is more of a crutch that prevents losing lane very early.
And the risk really depends on the champ/matchup.
@@mert111 Wait but thats such a delu thing to say things can still have advantages that arent just laning wtf
if 99% of soloq climbing is laning then i am the best midgame player history has ever seen, cause macro got me to high elo
@@brisca1668 u can climb thru macro what I mean it the most guaranteed and reliable way to climb is to always win lane and its also the best direct way to improve individual skill so its what most people should focus on mastering. otherwise u can climb in many diff ways ofc.
Doesn't a lot of the theory in this vid basically fly out of the window in ignite vs ignite games(which are extremely common these days)?
Aside from that, TP has such a giant CD that I find it hard to justify these days. Ignite is just up so much more often it's hardly comparable.
Yup, TP is worthless most of the time. You forfeit laning power for something only effective after 14 minutes. Meanwhile in that time you can use Ignite like 4 times to kill the enemy laner, get at least 2 3 plates on your lane a potential tower with Herald. Even after 14 minutes where Tp shines, your team and you need to be at least on the same lv with the enemy team for Tp counter fight to have any advantages outcome.
In the video I mention how bad it is to take Ignite and lose push, in the Ignite vs Ignite matchup this is essentially the case. One person will lose push despite commiting to taking Ignite, instantly forfeiting the main reason you might have for taking it in the first place. (This is far more so the case in top lane tho)
I hate playing vs ignite top.
midbeast lookin thumbnail
Midbeast is handsome, I'll take that comment xD
@@CoachRogue tru