Yu have that 2 cost trick that turn every zombie deadly. Yeah that bullshit op card is the answer to everything not just apotatosaurus dude. Just play a 1 cost and turn it deadly.
This is actually really interesting. Recently in hearthstone they changed the iconic 'destroy a minion that has 5 or more attack' priest card to two mana, to make it viable. This makes me think that the shamrocket problem is a lot deeper than a number problem like what fry said.
the problem is that gargs themselves are way to slow and are bad even when you get play them with few exceptions (surprise, supernova, hippity hop garg and gas giant)
@@melvint-p9500 Yah, 5 cost and either you have a untrickable card like Parasoul before you place Garg, or you risk having 2 cost trade lost. Basically we need to factor how Heroes work with Zombies going second before plants
@@Predator20357 Not really. Gargs that have immediate effect are good. It's just that most gargs are too slow, even in a meta with no removal. No competitive decks with gargs run untrickable, so removal isn't the issue, bad gargs are.
Shamrocket, exploding fruitcake what are you talking about c'mon it's turn 11 lets play garg feast Edit: For all peeps taking this seriously this is like a time travel to the past meme. Like when PvzHeroes first came out
the issue is, well for starters he made garg's feast cost 10, but the real issue is that now the meta is even faster from the extensive control nerfs practically murdering that entire archetype. Because of this, no game ever will make it late enough to reach turn 10, and you will never be able to play garg's feast.
If hard removal costs that much then just spamming gargs becomes way too powerfull. Some of the expensive big cards could be slightly cheaper or more impactful, but even thete you need to be careful.
Eyespore as a 4-cost 2/2 (bullseye), plant-evolution: destroy a zombie with 5 or more attack. Problems with nerfing plant removal is that plants have less strong cards when compared to gargs, so the plants with removal abilities should not cost more but have a condition, such as less than 3 or more than 5/6
Fry gets deep into possible changes to cards when we all know one thing where its re-addition can make the game so much better: the reinstatement of the Galactic Gardens Menu Theme
5:48 Same for plants, you waste lot of resources to keep a plant strong and alive and it just gets hard removed, shouldn’t zombie removal also get nerfed?
Zombie removal has the issue of being zombie tricks which are inherently worse than plant tricks. Despite this, I do think that it should be nerfed too but not to as harsh a degree.
Not really, aggro is already the best garg counter and control is already bad against them. Gargs still wouldn't be viable, they'd just be even better against their best matchup.
I love watching these tier list/discussion videos! It's fun because Fry's not just saying this and that is OP but he's also giving reasons why it is OP and how to fix it. When he started doing the tier lists I started watching him frequently and became a much better player. So thank you Fry!😁
the funny thing is, rocket is actually better than sham due to control in general being better on zombies. also, due to teleports, which are both universal in it's class and in the same class as rocket, rocket is almost just as non-commital as sham, which is fry's main issue with sham and the main point he brings up when people argue about rocket and sham being the same card on paper.
It's debatable, really. Sham is nice because you don't have to save sun to play it, but it is countered by Graves and teleportation. Rocket is a bit clunkier because you have to save brains in the Zombie phase to have enough to use it, but you can remove any threat with no fear of surprises.
Shamrocket really isn't though, it just seems like he's baised towards zombies. Does he really think it's fair that plants would have to waste their entire turn 6 play, which in his words you should really be trying to focus on your win condition this turn just to remove like a drone engineer that had grown out of control or something? Nerfing shamrocket and doom shroom would leave Guardian plants completely unable to remove big zombies without running out of cards or wasting their turn. It would just be so unbalanced, especially since it isn't a great class anyway.
Fry, I love ya, but having removal cost THAT MUCH is not exactly good logic. Here, I'll put it this way: Big dudes in pvz hero's usually cost 5 or more, right? It's at these turns where you can play these cards that your trying to finish off your opponent. Having good removal to counter it makes it so that the opponent can't just play a big dude and get away with it. The reason rocket and shamrocket cost as much as they do is so you can still play other cards to counter other plays besides just the big dude. If removal on plants were to cost this much, big dudes on zombies would become too strong because, while they could still be removed, other plays on the field would be unable to be counted, thus making removal cards like shamrocket a massive loss of tempo for the plants side. He'll, there's a reason that plant removal is typically better than zombie removal: because big zombie dudes are so much better than plant ones. Another aspect of having plant removal being cheap is so that plants can also have a chance to play their big dudes when possible. As stated earlier, on turns 5 and onward, your trying to win the game. Removal isn't supposed to cost as much as a finisher because it ISN'T A FINISHER! Anyways, that's just my opinion on things. Hope I was able to open you guys up to a new take on things.
Well said. I think what they were going for was a rocket science for the plants. Plus it’s an event card making it harder to obtain in the first place.
honestly plant removal is just garbage and unusable so shamrocket being able to get you an advantage is a good thing. it’s way better than just sticking 3 minions in front of it
I'd change: Beta Carrotina's super: Conjure any card from the entire game, and it costs 2 less. It gets +1 +1, Team-up and amphibious. Seedling: 2 Cost, 0Attack, 2Health start of turn: This transforms into a plant that costs 6 or less. It gets +1 +1 (That to prevent them turning into 1/1 useless plants, they'll be 2/2 instead, which is great. 1/1= 1attack 1 health)
I personally hate seedling, because no matter what ever time my oppent decides to run seedling, I shit you not, I turns into a dandy lion king. I know for most this doesn't happen, but for me giving it an extra 1/1 would make the kings even more fucking annoying
It’s cool how fry deeply considers the impact of every card change in the overall meta. Changes this video from a “top 10 best cards” to an actual thought-provoking discussion.
Im going to have to disagree with you. Zombie removal can only remove what they played the other turn after it did damage, or they have to predict the plants playing a card and save brains. They have a risk. Plant’s don’t
@@henrysurev6908 i understand that but its too biased towards the plants. If all the plants control gets nerfed then the zombies would also need more adjustments than just fruit cake. Gargs were meant to counter plants that dont have high removal just like how deadly is made to control plants with large minions. For example cards like soul patch are completely unplayable against deadly sneakly class. The problem isnt shamrocket the problem is that everyone runs guardian class because the rest suffer from zombie control decks such as valk and trickster.
Tbh i think fry is kinda overreacting, I can understand him being annoyed about removal, but plant removal has never been meta, because 1. tempo on plants is way better. Almost every meta plant deck rn is tempo and aggro (aggro WK, ringzilla GK 3-rings midrose etc.) 2. Comparing to LoR removal doesnt make sense because LoR works with spell mana and reaction spells. 3. with nerfing removal into oblivion you r basicly taking paper out the rock paper scissors meta which isnt a great thing to do to a card game.
Yeah. He says lategame decks are bad because of removal and that nerfing removal to the ground will fix them. No, all that does is make lategame decks unplayable because now they have no way to survive long enough to win.
Agree, he seems to be trying to make the game more fun but in my experience nerfing alot instead of buffing or side nerfing is always better in terms of fun
Aggro GK and midrose have very poor match ups against control decks. I know some people have a mentality that control decks are bad, but I suggest you test those against Control Impfinity and Valkster. These nerfs don't affect control decks as much as they affect tempo decks, as control decks are content passing every turn and only using removal cards, so they should have plenty of resources even after these nerfs. Tempo decks on the other hand benefit the most from cheap control, as they can develope minions and remove opponents' minions in the same turn.
Also,if you keep on playing your big minion over and over again their gonna run out of that removal because in this game you can only put 4 copies of 1 type of card and its not like your opponent will always draw a removal in a match they play
@@FryEmUpGaming Except these changes do massively affect control and make it literally unplayable now. Let's look at Plant control. Yes, control just wants to pass every turn and only use removal cards, but how are they ever gonna survive the early game with base hard removal now costing 7? Control was already horrible against aggressive decks, and now it's completely garbage because they start being able to play removal tools by the time aggro's already won the game! Making a few finishers cost 1 less doesn't help at all when every piece of removal is blatantly overpriced. You nerf the shit out of control while doing nothing against aggro, and then claim that control is perfectly fine? You say that these nerfs are to make tempo decks worse. "as they can develop minions and remove opponents' minions in the same turn". Yeah, you can play a 2-cost minion on t5 because you wasted 3 sun to kill Gargantuar instead of just ignoring it and focusing on finishing the game. There's a reason no top decks run Shamrocket; it's a waste of tempo and it's just not worth removing a big card when you could counter with a big card on your own.
Fry I absolutely love your content but I'mma have to side with the reddit on the removal nerfs . Gargs and big minions are not bad because of good plant removal, they are bad because they are too slow with the aggro or fast tempo meta that is now. Plant Control sucks right now, it needs a buff. I agree there cards are annoying af, but they are in no way broken. Sham is balanced, Squash and Doom are bad and unviable.
@@FryEmUpGamingSure. And again it's not that control is completely unviable , it's just that it will directly compete with aggro, and the meta is just way too fast paced right now. Nerfing removal wouldn't slow the meta down, buffing gargs and nerfing aggro would.
@@FryEmUpGaming how delusional can you be? the point is that top tier plant control cannot compete with the other top tier plant decks. the reason why your plant control decks win sightly consistently is that you test them on ladder, where half of the people are playing with a blindfold and finish for me decks. ladder is in no way competitive. you could go in with a half decent deck and a bit of luck and get an easy 10-0. using “reddit thinks plant control sucks because reddit can’t build plant control” as an argument is on another level of delusional. you think you’re better than anyone else that can play this game but you’re not, there are plenty of other people just as good if not better than you that think control is bad and have built highly optimised plant control. and no, don’t use “i beat sushi in a best of 3 with a counterdeck as your rebuttal.” 3 games is not enough to say you’re better than someone. i’m sorry, but it’s true.
I see what u mean about Rocket science in comparison to Shamrocket now. Even the general removal system. Cause I never like to commit to a singular trick on a turn. Thats why even when I do control Boogaloo, I like to play a 5 cost garg on turn 6 cause having that bungee, nibble or lightning feels a lot safer with that unit there. Same backwards as well. Having a cheese cutter or conman on the field helps the commitment of waiting to rocket science.
The whole point of removal is to get ahead on tempo. Sham costing 6 would render it completely useless, since you will spend 6 on something that costs 6, so what’s the point? The best way to beat gargs and the reason they’re bad isn’t shamrocket, it’s the fact that the plant player can just drop a way more impactful 5 drop (repeat moss + CC ult, astrocado, B-rex and a chump block, you name it). Also, tempo and aggro plant decks laugh at gargs and don’t even need shamrocket.
What if gargantuars don't have the "zombie" tag anymore? So remove a zombie would only be able to remove a zombie (or maybe an imp) and not a card that has Gargantuar in it's tags
That would be interesting and would be consistent with how gargantuars work in past games with them being unable to be instantly destroyed by things like squash and cherry bomb
My godness fry, I coudn't watch the stream, and I watched in Twitch the four hours, and Now I need to watch everything again?, this is the best day ever!
A 6 cost shamrocket would be completely unusable. Basically, you're whole rant is to get rid of removal on the plant side. You fail to see that plants have to have strong removal, otherwise zero tempo can be built, let alone any strategy. Plant are weaker than zombies because zombie have last say. You'd kill the game
the thing i think he is trying to say is that when the zombies play a big guy, the plants should either play another big guy or to remove it, but not both, which is usually why shamrocket is annoying, because it is dirt cheap that you can do both options, i think costing 5 might be justifiable
@@paulyeung2544 The counter to gargs is winning before late game comes. Aggro and Tempo can do this, but control can't. This is why control usually looses against gargs. Nerfing shamrocket wouldn’t make gargs good.
@@melvint-p9500 I'm sorry? Control also does very well against garg decks. Most garg decks comes with small and medium removal, as well as some small minions to tag along. It's not your average control boogaloo, but viable garg decks are more of a tempo-styled garg deck, which is why control decks sometimes hard counter garg decks since they have answers like DMD in late or wingnut in mid
@@melvint-p9500 Normal garg decks won't leave out such obvious weaknesses, they always have counters to aggro. Tempo for plants can be a problem for them, exactly why nerfing shamrocket is justifiable. Imagine you play something big, they answered it with a sham, and played another guy. Exactly why tempo deals so hard with garg decks. On the other hand, rocket science requires you to plan ahead and anticipate what your opponent is going to play, in a sense a lot different from the reaction-based nature of shamrocket. That's why, at least in my opinion, i agreed that shamrocket should cost more for the benefit of not needing to plan ahead that turn unlike its zombie counterpart
The problem isnt shamrocket the problem is that everyone runs guardian class because the rest suffer from zombie control decks such as valk and trickster. (EVEN WOSRT INFINITY PIRATE SWARM)
Here's my idea for how octo zombie could work in the current meta; same stats and ability, but gets a new one; When played: For the rest of the game, a plant and all copies of that plant (In the deck not just on the field) have 0 attack and cannot be buffed. This 1. Makes its immortality ability useful 2. Counters win conditions and completely changes how the game is going and 3. Makes it extremely risk for plants to remove, since the zombie hero can play it again and make another late game card virtually unplayable. Give me feedback if you think this too over/under powered.
I get wanting to weaken plant removal, and I can sympathize, but then plant stats need buffs, or else there's no way to compete once they start playing gargs. Basically if you're not playing bounce or winter squash decks you would loose as a plant Hero in this Garg meta.
I think shamrocket should just be a 4 cost, it's not as OP as you think it is. Yes, it kind of counters strategies that are reliant on buffing up dry zombies to the moon, but that's a good thing. You shouldn't be able to just get an insanely strong zombie because your opponent gets unlucky and then just win the game. Also, you can only run 4 in your deck and there's no guarantee you can get it, and there are many counters to it and ways to play around it. Also, with your examples with paparazzi and unlife, you don't lose the value of those cards or tricks when those two zombies die, and they are 1 cost zombies, so shamrocketing them is a desperation move and an attempt to get back into the game. At 6 cost it would be completely unplayable. Same goes for Doom-shroom, I think doom-shroom should cost 6 but 8 is ridiculous
Shamrocket should just be removed outright. Mostly because if they nerf shamrocket, all the other removal cards will have to be nerfed subsequently to avoid power creep. If there are no viable removal options, you will just get an aggro meta, which is arguably less fun. If shamrocket is in the solution, there will only be another problem. (If they do delete it, just give everyone who has it 1000 sparks per copy)
Ok so from what I can interpret, he wants to nerf plant control and plant control finishers so playing big dry zombies is viable, and “fun”. But he’s getting it all wrong. No matter how many plant removal cards you butcher, Gargs will still be unviable. This is due to the fact that games end quickly. Good, competitive decks are able to close games by T5-6. That is near nowhere to play most Gargs. And it’s funny, because by nerfing control, you kill the control archetype, making aggro an even BETTER strategy, rendering Gargs even more useless. Oh and don’t get me started on giving Octo Untrickable. That doesn’t solve its problem! It’s too slow! And making DMD and Plank cost 9 just makes them useless! (I mean they were going to be useless anyways since Fry killed most control tools.) And changing Doom Shrooms cost to 8 makes it worse. Doom Shroom is slow and unplayable, and you want... to nerf it? But to be fair he has some good changes, like 2 cost Flourish, and- WAIT IS THAT 3 COST BANANASAURAS REX WHAT THE FU-
one of the best early game combos is Quickdraw Con Man and exploding fruit cake. I love that combo cuz you can get bullseye damage and remove opponent minions
Ok, so I may have an idea, armored minions can't be killed by removal, but instead will survive with the amount of armored it has, example is if defensive end got shamrocketed, it would survive with 1 hp
if shamrocket cost 6 it will kill the card and defensive end garg will make it cost 8 (only 1) how its fair to the plant hero ? also guardian class do not have ways to gain extra sun (only wall knight) if you put 2 defensive ends its gg them ? also you can teleport zombies making shamrocket useless and buffing the card with tricks or using parasol zombie ... please fry think again the game is based in in pvz 1 and 2 to defense your lawn not die to zombies with no response
I feel like wannabe would need to be 7 because of the prospect of gargologist ramp, if wannabe is 6, you can now play it on 4, where the plants have, noshamrocket, no big minion, with a 6attack 21health in the field that they can to nothing about it
I am curious why you want to increase the cost of squash when I never see you use it at 5. I understand it is outclassed by shamrocket, but for every non-walnut solar hero, if the card should be nerfed, shouldn’t most competitive decks run it?
It’s due to how if you listen, Squash would just replace Shamrocket once it’s at 5 cost, you have no limitations on it. If Shamrocket is nerfed to a 5 cost card, then Squash would need to have a slight nerf so that the Event card doesn’t just become useless.
I feel like PvZ Heroes' big cards would either work: - if mana cheating would be actually viable (instead in hearthstone, where having cards like Gather your Party (summon a minion from your deck), Boomship (legendary, summon three from hand) and it works incredibly well if it's well balanced -- NOT talking about cards like voidcaller which are stupidly balanced). Right now, for zombie side it requires you running almost up to 3 almost dead-lategame cards in your hand/wasting your tempo on 3 to setup a combo and for plant side, it requires your minions to survive to give value to you (which even then it doesn't, since the only hero with efficient card draw will run aggro decks since they're just this better), - if, just onto what the Fry said, there wasn't SO MUCH removal packed into this hell of a game. From my early days of this game, people non-stop use Locust Swarm, Plumber, Rockets, Cuts, Spikeweeds, and the like and most non-Taco ranks haven't moved on from that concept yet to use a deck without half of it being removal cards (ofc it's good to use them, but other strategies also exist-- or, would rather exist if some cards wouldn't be as efficient). I think that making atleast some other strategies (like Big decks or Midrange) much more promising and reliable would make this game's meta MUCH different from what it always was.
Big cards would work if this game actually had good removal so that games could go on longer. Want gargs to be better? Buff Zombie removal so that you can survive long enough to actually play them. Want Cornucopia to be better? Buff Plant removal so that you can survive until t10 to play it. Removal doesn't need nerfs; it needs buffs for both sides so that late-game strategies can flourish.
@@boberttheboss8990 the thing is, some removals just don't allow some cards to exist in meta bc usually turn 5 is where all minion cards start dying to most removal (squash and swarm mark that spot) My point is, that the harder is it to spend your mana to remove a card AND build tempo (place minions) the better it will be for the game. Removal being cheaper/better will do the opposite, as it will allow faster decks to shine (allowing on t5 to e.g. spring bean supernova garg and place tricarrotops, which puts the opponent at a HUGE layback in the match)
@@aloe7794 Except that's not how the game works. All a 2 cost card t5 does is blockcharge or deal chip damage, and your opponent can just plunk that Supernova down next turn. Better removal doesn't make faster decks better; faster decks still won't run removal because they want to win as quickly as possible, not remove threats they don't care about. Making removal cheaper means that control decks can actually counter faster decks and not die early on, thus slowing down the game and letting lategame strategies be played.
Forget me Nuts needs a rework to make the game more fun. Especially with the fruitcake and rocket nerf forget me nuts becomes way too good at protecting other big plays by the plants
@@rein9407 Turn 1 you can't kill forget me nuts. So on turn 2, plants make a turn 2 that can't be answered cause you need to deal with forget me nuts. Turn 3 same thing, turn 2 play still on the field. This goes on each turn until zombies are able to get the perfect answers or just lose to the tempo disadvantage.
@@travisprescott9708 (same thing as I replied to @Floof or Poof). Turn 1 you can't kill forget me nuts. So on turn 2, plants make a turn 2 that can't be answered cause you need to deal with forget me nuts. Turn 3 same thing, turn 2 play still on the field. This goes on each turn until zombies are able to get the perfect answers or just lose to the tempo disadvantage.
@@franinja2000 that is the point of forget me nuts and dont worry they always have a op rolling stone. And do yu have problem with teacher zombie too? I bet no cuz yu are a zombie main.
EDIT: Something that I should say is that I don't hate fry as a person, i just heavily disagree with him and want to share my opinion on the subject. Funny that you say you want the game to have more variety, because you killed the deck that you were trying to help and already was struggling or straight-up didn't exist. All these changes do is make the game faster than it already is. Control straight-up dies because all removal is gone. The reason gargs and other big zombies don't see play aren't just because of one card in one class (no, I am NOT counting doom/squash because they are currently completely unviable) because, theoretically, gargs would be pretty good against the 6 heroes that can't run the card. It's because those cards are currently too slow for the meta. Either that, or they were always garbage and need a rework. In reality, gargs do better AGAINST sham becuase if the hero is running sham, that means that they are playing slower and that gives you time to get your gargs out on the field. If you nerf all removal and kill control because of it, gargs will become even worse because nobody will be running slow decks anymore and all there will be are really fast aggro and tempo decks because you barely nerfed aggro, and gargs (and control in general) will be unplayable.
I have been trying to find a comment like this on Frys' videos. This is the real truth! If you nerf shamrocket and other removal, then just screw removal I guess. Tempo beats control. Control is slow, that's how its supposed to work. Tempo is good against control because they are gonna have big minions, and its gonna be hard to take out the field of big minions. By removing removal, plants have no reason to run control (as if they had a reason to run it before), and the meta becomes faster than before. People wont run any removal. They'll just run aggro and tempo, and now that removal is obsolete, these decks become faster than before. Gargs will be even MORE unplayable.
I agree with a bit of what you’re saying, but I don’t understand the argument that gargs are good against sham. If you play a 5 cost garg and they sham it, then they have 2 suns left to fuck you up with tempo. It gets worse when you run more expensive gargs like wannabe hero or king of the grill.
Fry: *talking about very decent buffs and nerfs* Devs: *sees the chat disagreeing and saying squash should cost 4 and valk/trickster should be buffed* “Take notes, take notes”
I really disagree about fry's take on haunted Pumpking. The entire reason why the card is too strong isn't because of its stats, rather how terrible the monsters you conjure are on average. If those cards were as good as what exploding fruitcake could give you the card would be perfectly balanced. Nerfing the stats would kill the card entirely along with killing the best budget deck on the plants side.
@@FryEmUpGaming It would for sure but I really think that's just the wrong way to nerf it. You've said it yourself how weak most of the cards it conjures are. By doing that it'd make the game more fun since cards like ghost and could be a functional sticky card and cosmic yeti could be a fun and strong card.
Im surprised you never said anything about grave removal, aren't big gravestones unviable because of how cheaply you can remove them? I was thinking gravebuster (and possibly blockbuster) should be changed to: Reveal a zombie and deal 5 damage to it. This still kills all early gravestones , allows expensive gravestones to survive and still get value out of them.
The way to develope big gravestones is to run earlier gravestones, to absorb the opponent's grave removal. If they pass on early gravestones, you gain an early tempo advantage. This is really well demonstrated by Pogo MUG.
@@FryEmUpGaming That just happens to be the same strat used in control decks by the reddit. I would like you to try and use that strat. Have cards like nova absorb sham and then use your finisher (i think garg throwing garg would work the best). I think that could help counter sham and make these cards work.
Shamrocket should be a super rare card, like rocket science, it’s counterpart. That’s just me. But I don’t see why they couldn’t do that, or at least make it destroy 5 attackers or more
6 cost shamrocket is even worse than celestial custodian , it would be so trash it would make the bin look like a mansion , imagine a brick where every card in your hand are 6 cost unplayable cards , it should cost 4 at MAX
Low ranks is great because only 1/10 guardian matches have 1 shamrocket EDIT: This is like the Community patch for DbD, only this game is not being developed rn.
Tricarrotops: Will become a 4/4. Laser Bean: Will get Bullseye. Aloesaurus: Will get Strikethrough. Coffee Grounds: Will cost 3. Doom-Shroom: Will only destroy the Zombies. Cornucopia: Will make Team-Up Plants also in the lanes with a Plant. Squash: Will cost 6. Bean Counter: Will be a 2/1, but will Conjure one more Bean card. Jumping Bean: Will be a 2/2. Locust Swarm: Will cost 6. Ancient Vimpire: Will cost 3. Gargantuar-throwing-Gargantuar: Will get Frenzy. Gentleman Zombie: Will become a Gourmet card, not a Party card anymore. Cut Down to Size: Will target Plants with 6 Strength or more. Rocket Science: Will target Plants with 5 Strength or more.
This sounds weird but it would make Shamrocket rather unique than stupid if they completely rework it, such as "destroy a zombie with 2 traits or more" in my opinion
well the thing right now is because when zombie plays a big guy, the plants get too much value by both killing that zombie with this then stick another minion on the field. So the nerf i think is justified so that the plants can either themselves play a big guy themselves or answer the zombie big guy, but not both
Make a card called “Stun” and its a zombie trick. Its a 2 or 3 cost card and it disables opponents block meter and its super-rare So the block meter cant move up or trigger for a turn. Works if you have a lethal but the opponent block is almost full
You mean Stun Grenade (5 cost legendary card) when played on a lane do 2 damage to a plant here and next door, enemy block meter cannot not trigger or go up
My thoughts on shamrocket Stay as a 3 cost Make squash 4 cost Same with the zombie side and make doomshroom should be a 7 cost And a way to make gargs good Make an untrickable Garg that makes then all untrickable
Ironically, while fry constantly complains about how gargantuars are completely useless because of sham, gargs are actually better against decks that run it.
Gargs aren't bad because of removal, they're bad because they take too long to get started and as such are easily beat by aggressive decks. By using shamrocket instead of just focusing on winning, it slows both players down, giving gargs more time to get a foothold and start overwhelming the opponent.
@@rein9407 Gargologist already exists to do that, and gargs are still garbage. If removal was better, though, then games might actually go long enough for gargs to start winning without having to rely on unreliable cards to get enough brains to cheat out gargs early. Of course, actual garg early game would help, but buffing removal for both sides would be a huge step in the right direction.
You comitted all your brains on gaining more tempo. They plop down a B. Rex on an empty lane on turn 3. It's turn 4: The B. Rex is either a 4/4 or a 5/5 , depending on block meter shenanigans. You saved up all of your brains to use Rocket science on the B. Rex. They either plop down a Plantern on Spikeweed Sector, covered a little Buddy with an Elderberry, a Veloci-Radish hunter or another B. Rex and use holo flora to buff both of them. You can have 7/7 or 5/5 worth of stats on the battlefield on turn 4. You then proceed to smash your phone with a hammer. Plus, it's double strike. Bananasaurus Rex is already balanced as she is. We don't need to make her completely broken. Me: In this case Starch lord would be op. This also doesn't mention the fact that they can also play Re-Peat Moss dry with more pressure. They don't have to worry about Moss being removed off the field because the zombie hero would be spending most of their brains getting rid of the B. Re
Your nerf explanation for sham rocket and squash makes sense. Guardian class only has sham rocket, and squash is only solar class. You want the better removal, you need to change your hero.
Making pogo 5 makes it so you can get him in bmr tough that might be broken since then you can open up a line for your highest attack guy that you get in bmr and just wreck the plant hero
I love how whenever Fry clicks with his mouse, the entire building he’s in shakes
God's hand, wielded by Fry Em Up.
I'm very surprised that the zombies don't have a beefy card that is untrickable like Apotatosaurus.
@silent *add some dino roars, a time to shine and a plant food in, and some sun left to use*
@@rein9407 Ahh yes, the classic poor all my resources into a 6 cost card, unga bunga.
@@phoenix7646 yes *untrickable*
Yu have that 2 cost trick that turn every zombie deadly. Yeah that bullshit op card is the answer to everything not just apotatosaurus dude. Just play a 1 cost and turn it deadly.
@@hesamhm9383 giving a card deadly to kill a plant??? Goodness how has nobody ever thought of this idea???
Seedling should be 1 attack 0 health. It's too way op
5 cost 1/0
@@mattyhq3094 yes
Thanks dio
1 cost
0/5
At the start of turn: turn into a plant that costs between 8-10
No..... Cost 7.1000 attack 0 health balance
I remember the "we need a leap", now its gold pure
More like lEAp it only costs some 20 dominican dollars xd
Nvm make it 50 xd
I will never forget that
@@baltazargucci4757 ye... ok u have 4 copies of lEAp fry where mah 200 dominican dollars xd
Now it's gold cringe :)
This is what will happen when Fry becomes the developer of pvzh
I love how you said "when" and not "if"
yeah. i call it the control rapture personally.
@Jared Sabatelli yep
the horror
One word will ruin this comment is EA
39:01 ah yes, my favorite zombie trick, shamrocket
This is actually really interesting. Recently in hearthstone they changed the iconic 'destroy a minion that has 5 or more attack' priest card to two mana, to make it viable. This makes me think that the shamrocket problem is a lot deeper than a number problem like what fry said.
the problem is that gargs themselves are way to slow and are bad even when you get play them with few exceptions (surprise, supernova, hippity hop garg and gas giant)
@@melvint-p9500 Yah, 5 cost and either you have a untrickable card like Parasoul before you place Garg, or you risk having 2 cost trade lost. Basically we need to factor how Heroes work with Zombies going second before plants
@@Predator20357 Not really. Gargs that have immediate effect are good. It's just that most gargs are too slow, even in a meta with no removal. No competitive decks with gargs run untrickable, so removal isn't the issue, bad gargs are.
@@melvint-p9500 True
Shamrocket, exploding fruitcake what are you talking about c'mon it's turn 11 lets play garg feast
Edit: For all peeps taking this seriously this is like a time travel to the past meme. Like when PvzHeroes first came out
the issue is, well for starters he made garg's feast cost 10, but the real issue is that now the meta is even faster from the extensive control nerfs practically murdering that entire archetype. Because of this, no game ever will make it late enough to reach turn 10, and you will never be able to play garg's feast.
I wish that conversation happens
Cryo brain would like to talk to you
@@aristoshii Control Boogaloo .-.
Problem solved for pogo mug. Make pogo be in a different class that sneaky. That's all you have to do
The amount of content Fry got from this game is soooo amazing and how he is able to make even more content. Great job man!!!
Fry there’s no need to nerf shamrocket, just run clock zombie to bait it
-another reason why clock zombie has the best synergy
Spikeweed: *henlo*
@@rein9407 play on heights then
@@leaf7401 oh no, no *no-* _slaps lightnng reed down_
@@rein9407 bruh
*Galactacactus has enter to the chat.*
If hard removal costs that much then just spamming gargs becomes way too powerfull. Some of the expensive big cards could be slightly cheaper or more impactful, but even thete you need to be careful.
Yeah, that was what i was thinking do, this could be balanced by giving plants more removal options, deadly plants, buff anulators, etc.
And by making gargs give more short lapse benefits, for example dropping cards, giving free brains, etc.
Eyespore as a 4-cost 2/2 (bullseye), plant-evolution: destroy a zombie with 5 or more attack.
Problems with nerfing plant removal is that plants have less strong cards when compared to gargs, so the plants with removal abilities should not cost more but have a condition, such as less than 3 or more than 5/6
Your videos get me through this time, please never stop
Fry gets deep into possible changes to cards when we all know one thing where its re-addition can make the game so much better: the reinstatement of the Galactic Gardens Menu Theme
5:48 Same for plants, you waste lot of resources to keep a plant strong and alive and it just gets hard removed, shouldn’t zombie removal also get nerfed?
Neither should get nerfed because exhaust shouldn't be a good strategy.
Well… that ones difficult
Didnt he literally explain that
Zombie removal has the issue of being zombie tricks which are inherently worse than plant tricks. Despite this, I do think that it should be nerfed too but not to as harsh a degree.
@@toxic_shr00min practice it doesnt mean that much though since your not committing all your brains as Zombies 90% of the times
fry, you forget that gargs CAN become TOO GOOD. a garg meta wouldnt be the most fun either, because the only counter would be aggro.
Not really, aggro is already the best garg counter and control is already bad against them. Gargs still wouldn't be viable, they'd just be even better against their best matchup.
I love watching these tier list/discussion videos! It's fun because Fry's not just saying this and that is OP but he's also giving reasons why it is OP and how to fix it. When he started doing the tier lists I started watching him frequently and became a much better player. So thank you Fry!😁
agreed, reasons are important
Most of this video is just fry talking about why rocket science is balanced and shamrocket is op
the funny thing is, rocket is actually better than sham due to control in general being better on zombies. also, due to teleports, which are both universal in it's class and in the same class as rocket, rocket is almost just as non-commital as sham, which is fry's main issue with sham and the main point he brings up when people argue about rocket and sham being the same card on paper.
It's debatable, really. Sham is nice because you don't have to save sun to play it, but it is countered by Graves and teleportation. Rocket is a bit clunkier because you have to save brains in the Zombie phase to have enough to use it, but you can remove any threat with no fear of surprises.
Skip to 1:04:08 if you don't wanna hear about shamrocket
Shamrocket really isn't though, it just seems like he's baised towards zombies. Does he really think it's fair that plants would have to waste their entire turn 6 play, which in his words you should really be trying to focus on your win condition this turn just to remove like a drone engineer that had grown out of control or something? Nerfing shamrocket and doom shroom would leave Guardian plants completely unable to remove big zombies without running out of cards or wasting their turn. It would just be so unbalanced, especially since it isn't a great class anyway.
@@SecureBirch410 agree
Fry, I love ya, but having removal cost THAT MUCH is not exactly good logic. Here, I'll put it this way: Big dudes in pvz hero's usually cost 5 or more, right? It's at these turns where you can play these cards that your trying to finish off your opponent. Having good removal to counter it makes it so that the opponent can't just play a big dude and get away with it. The reason rocket and shamrocket cost as much as they do is so you can still play other cards to counter other plays besides just the big dude. If removal on plants were to cost this much, big dudes on zombies would become too strong because, while they could still be removed, other plays on the field would be unable to be counted, thus making removal cards like shamrocket a massive loss of tempo for the plants side. He'll, there's a reason that plant removal is typically better than zombie removal: because big zombie dudes are so much better than plant ones. Another aspect of having plant removal being cheap is so that plants can also have a chance to play their big dudes when possible. As stated earlier, on turns 5 and onward, your trying to win the game. Removal isn't supposed to cost as much as a finisher because it ISN'T A FINISHER! Anyways, that's just my opinion on things. Hope I was able to open you guys up to a new take on things.
Thank you colonel Sanders
Well said. I think what they were going for was a rocket science for the plants. Plus it’s an event card making it harder to obtain in the first place.
Shamrocket should cost 4 imo, it screws over more strats then just gargs
honestly plant removal is just garbage and unusable so shamrocket being able to get you an advantage is a good thing. it’s way better than just sticking 3 minions in front of it
plant removal is not that good cuz people do not use big guys but it just makes some zombies strategies unusable
Plant removal isnt garbage, its just completely outclassed by sham rocket. Thats the entire point that Fry is making in this video
@@laukeabsil7804 and it’s outclassed for a reason. almost all removal tricks are just too slow to even consider running
@@onesweatyboy4000 yeah but he just nerfed everything just to buff gargs and the zombies would be extreamly OP
@@laukeabsil7804 lava guava, tactical cuke, sizzle, cherry bomb, need i say more?
I'd change:
Beta Carrotina's super: Conjure any card from the entire game, and it costs 2 less. It gets +1 +1, Team-up and amphibious.
Seedling: 2 Cost, 0Attack, 2Health
start of turn: This transforms into a plant that costs 6 or less. It gets +1 +1
(That to prevent them turning into 1/1 useless plants, they'll be 2/2 instead, which is great. 1/1= 1attack 1 health)
I personally hate seedling, because no matter what ever time my oppent decides to run seedling, I shit you not, I turns into a dandy lion king. I know for most this doesn't happen, but for me giving it an extra 1/1 would make the kings even more fucking annoying
I would give shamrocket an ability that would only take effect when you earned at least 6 sun, so you can still play it for 3 sun.
It’s cool how fry deeply considers the impact of every card change in the overall meta. Changes this video from a “top 10 best cards” to an actual thought-provoking discussion.
He just wants to completely nerf plant control and leave zombie control. (Zombies have more removal cards than plants)
Basically.
Rose ramp to removals will be a thing lmao
Im going to have to disagree with you. Zombie removal can only remove what they played the other turn after it did damage, or they have to predict the plants playing a card and save brains. They have a risk. Plant’s don’t
He even explained that at 27 minutes
@@henrysurev6908 i understand that but its too biased towards the plants. If all the plants control gets nerfed then the zombies would also need more adjustments than just fruit cake.
Gargs were meant to counter plants that dont have high removal just like how deadly is made to control plants with large minions. For example cards like soul patch are completely unplayable against deadly sneakly class. The problem isnt shamrocket the problem is that everyone runs guardian class because the rest suffer from zombie control decks such as valk and trickster.
Tbh i think fry is kinda overreacting, I can understand him being annoyed about removal, but plant removal has never been meta, because
1. tempo on plants is way better. Almost every meta plant deck rn is tempo and aggro (aggro WK, ringzilla GK 3-rings midrose etc.)
2. Comparing to LoR removal doesnt make sense because LoR works with spell mana and reaction spells.
3. with nerfing removal into oblivion you r basicly taking paper out the rock paper scissors meta which isnt a great thing to do to a card game.
Yeah. He says lategame decks are bad because of removal and that nerfing removal to the ground will fix them. No, all that does is make lategame decks unplayable because now they have no way to survive long enough to win.
Agree, he seems to be trying to make the game more fun but in my experience nerfing alot instead of buffing or side nerfing is always better in terms of fun
Aggro GK and midrose have very poor match ups against control decks. I know some people have a mentality that control decks are bad, but I suggest you test those against Control Impfinity and Valkster. These nerfs don't affect control decks as much as they affect tempo decks, as control decks are content passing every turn and only using removal cards, so they should have plenty of resources even after these nerfs. Tempo decks on the other hand benefit the most from cheap control, as they can develope minions and remove opponents' minions in the same turn.
Also,if you keep on playing your big minion over and over again their gonna run out of that removal because in this game you can only put 4 copies of 1 type of card and its not like your opponent will always draw a removal in a match they play
@@FryEmUpGaming Except these changes do massively affect control and make it literally unplayable now. Let's look at Plant control. Yes, control just wants to pass every turn and only use removal cards, but how are they ever gonna survive the early game with base hard removal now costing 7? Control was already horrible against aggressive decks, and now it's completely garbage because they start being able to play removal tools by the time aggro's already won the game! Making a few finishers cost 1 less doesn't help at all when every piece of removal is blatantly overpriced. You nerf the shit out of control while doing nothing against aggro, and then claim that control is perfectly fine? You say that these nerfs are to make tempo decks worse. "as they can develop minions and remove opponents' minions in the same turn". Yeah, you can play a 2-cost minion on t5 because you wasted 3 sun to kill Gargantuar instead of just ignoring it and focusing on finishing the game. There's a reason no top decks run Shamrocket; it's a waste of tempo and it's just not worth removing a big card when you could counter with a big card on your own.
Fry I absolutely love your content but I'mma have to side with the reddit on the removal nerfs . Gargs and big minions are not bad because of good plant removal, they are bad because they are too slow with the aggro or fast tempo meta that is now. Plant Control sucks right now, it needs a buff. I agree there cards are annoying af, but they are in no way broken. Sham is balanced, Squash and Doom are bad and unviable.
Try playing some of my control decks some time, both for plants and zombies. They are quite good if built/played correctly.
@@FryEmUpGamingSure. And again it's not that control is completely unviable , it's just that it will directly compete with aggro, and the meta is just way too fast paced right now. Nerfing removal wouldn't slow the meta down, buffing gargs and nerfing aggro would.
@@FryEmUpGaming how delusional can you be? the point is that top tier plant control cannot compete with the other top tier plant decks. the reason why your plant control decks win sightly consistently is that you test them on ladder, where half of the people are playing with a blindfold and finish for me decks. ladder is in no way competitive. you could go in with a half decent deck and a bit of luck and get an easy 10-0. using “reddit thinks plant control sucks because reddit can’t build plant control” as an argument is on another level of delusional. you think you’re better than anyone else that can play this game but you’re not, there are plenty of other people just as good if not better than you that think control is bad and have built highly optimised plant control. and no, don’t use “i beat sushi in a best of 3 with a counterdeck as your rebuttal.” 3 games is not enough to say you’re better than someone. i’m sorry, but it’s true.
@@arthurcoleman5307 I agree, but no need to call him delusional
@@Erik_Montesinos thats what he is though. what other word is there
A couple of things. 36:34 Rolling stone counters tricarrotops. And you should try OTK Snowdrop.
I see what u mean about Rocket science in comparison to Shamrocket now. Even the general removal system. Cause I never like to commit to a singular trick on a turn. Thats why even when I do control Boogaloo, I like to play a 5 cost garg on turn 6 cause having that bungee, nibble or lightning feels a lot safer with that unit there. Same backwards as well. Having a cheese cutter or conman on the field helps the commitment of waiting to rocket science.
The whole point of removal is to get ahead on tempo. Sham costing 6 would render it completely useless, since you will spend 6 on something that costs 6, so what’s the point? The best way to beat gargs and the reason they’re bad isn’t shamrocket, it’s the fact that the plant player can just drop a way more impactful 5 drop (repeat moss + CC ult, astrocado, B-rex and a chump block, you name it). Also, tempo and aggro plant decks laugh at gargs and don’t even need shamrocket.
This was suggested to me after the new balance changes 😂
real
What if gargantuars don't have the "zombie" tag anymore? So remove a zombie would only be able to remove a zombie (or maybe an imp) and not a card that has Gargantuar in it's tags
That would be interesting and would be consistent with how gargantuars work in past games with them being unable to be instantly destroyed by things like squash and cherry bomb
My godness fry, I coudn't watch the stream, and I watched in Twitch the four hours, and Now I need to watch everything again?, this is the best day ever!
We don’t talk about how this man was saying that an 18/18 would be just fine to teleport (Zombot)
Fry:
“All these cards right here become better with hard removal nerfed”
The 6 people who still use teleimps:
A 6 cost shamrocket would be completely unusable. Basically, you're whole rant is to get rid of removal on the plant side. You fail to see that plants have to have strong removal, otherwise zero tempo can be built, let alone any strategy. Plant are weaker than zombies because zombie have last say. You'd kill the game
Plant's are better I try Garg decks boom sham rocket and doom shroom to annoying
the thing i think he is trying to say is that when the zombies play a big guy, the plants should either play another big guy or to remove it, but not both, which is usually why shamrocket is annoying, because it is dirt cheap that you can do both options, i think costing 5 might be justifiable
@@paulyeung2544 The counter to gargs is winning before late game comes. Aggro and Tempo can do this, but control can't. This is why control usually looses against gargs. Nerfing shamrocket wouldn’t make gargs good.
@@melvint-p9500 I'm sorry? Control also does very well against garg decks. Most garg decks comes with small and medium removal, as well as some small minions to tag along. It's not your average control boogaloo, but viable garg decks are more of a tempo-styled garg deck, which is why control decks sometimes hard counter garg decks since they have answers like DMD in late or wingnut in mid
@@melvint-p9500 Normal garg decks won't leave out such obvious weaknesses, they always have counters to aggro. Tempo for plants can be a problem for them, exactly why nerfing shamrocket is justifiable. Imagine you play something big, they answered it with a sham, and played another guy. Exactly why tempo deals so hard with garg decks.
On the other hand, rocket science requires you to plan ahead and anticipate what your opponent is going to play, in a sense a lot different from the reaction-based nature of shamrocket. That's why, at least in my opinion, i agreed that shamrocket should cost more for the benefit of not needing to plan ahead that turn unlike its zombie counterpart
The problem isnt shamrocket the problem is that everyone runs guardian class because the rest suffer from zombie control decks such as valk and trickster. (EVEN WOSRT INFINITY PIRATE SWARM)
Pop cap when sees this video:
Ok, let’s make small plants better than big zombies
Zombie has 4 attack Shamrocket: And I took that personally
Here's my idea for how octo zombie could work in the current meta; same stats and ability, but gets a new one; When played: For the rest of the game, a plant and all copies of that plant (In the deck not just on the field) have 0 attack and cannot be buffed. This 1. Makes its immortality ability useful 2. Counters win conditions and completely changes how the game is going and 3. Makes it extremely risk for plants to remove, since the zombie hero can play it again and make another late game card virtually unplayable. Give me feedback if you think this too over/under powered.
It's still too bad cause it's so slow. Games rarely last till turn 8
I get wanting to weaken plant removal, and I can sympathize, but then plant stats need buffs, or else there's no way to compete once they start playing gargs. Basically if you're not playing bounce or winter squash decks you would loose as a plant Hero in this Garg meta.
I think shamrocket should just be a 4 cost, it's not as OP as you think it is. Yes, it kind of counters strategies that are reliant on buffing up dry zombies to the moon, but that's a good thing. You shouldn't be able to just get an insanely strong zombie because your opponent gets unlucky and then just win the game. Also, you can only run 4 in your deck and there's no guarantee you can get it, and there are many counters to it and ways to play around it. Also, with your examples with paparazzi and unlife, you don't lose the value of those cards or tricks when those two zombies die, and they are 1 cost zombies, so shamrocketing them is a desperation move and an attempt to get back into the game. At 6 cost it would be completely unplayable. Same goes for Doom-shroom, I think doom-shroom should cost 6 but 8 is ridiculous
imo doom-shroom should actually be deleted. It's worse than sham in basically any situation where you're not irreparably behind.
Doom Shroom works at 7 cost, because depending on how many strong zombies are on the field, it's like many shamrockets/squashs.
Shamrocket should just be removed outright. Mostly because if they nerf shamrocket, all the other removal cards will have to be nerfed subsequently to avoid power creep. If there are no viable removal options, you will just get an aggro meta, which is arguably less fun. If shamrocket is in the solution, there will only be another problem. (If they do delete it, just give everyone who has it 1000 sparks per copy)
I really don’t see the problem with most removal. I have countless times lost because i simply didn’t draw my removal
Ok so from what I can interpret, he wants to nerf plant control and plant control finishers so playing big dry zombies is viable, and “fun”. But he’s getting it all wrong. No matter how many plant removal cards you butcher, Gargs will still be unviable. This is due to the fact that games end quickly. Good, competitive decks are able to close games by T5-6. That is near nowhere to play most Gargs. And it’s funny, because by nerfing control, you kill the control archetype, making aggro an even BETTER strategy, rendering Gargs even more useless. Oh and don’t get me started on giving Octo Untrickable. That doesn’t solve its problem! It’s too slow! And making DMD and Plank cost 9 just makes them useless! (I mean they were going to be useless anyways since Fry killed most control tools.) And changing Doom Shrooms cost to 8 makes it worse. Doom Shroom is slow and unplayable, and you want... to nerf it? But to be fair he has some good changes, like 2 cost Flourish, and-
WAIT IS THAT 3 COST BANANASAURAS REX WHAT THE FU-
I mean, 6 cost apotatosaurus, 3 cost veloci-raptor, 2 cost tricarrotops, 3 cost bananasaurus just follows the tradition.
@@businessman6629 B-Rex is off curve because Double Strike is better than the other Dino's traits by a very wide margin.
Jumping bean is basically playing apple saucer and springbean as 1 card on turn 5
one of the best early game combos is Quickdraw Con Man and exploding fruit cake.
I love that combo cuz you can get bullseye damage and remove opponent minions
Double Mint rework idea: 1/2 2 cost, untrickable, start of turn: Choose to double this plant's strength or health.
I have never NEVER clicked a video so fast!
shamrocket: costs 6 squash: *its my time to shine*
Ok, so I may have an idea, armored minions can't be killed by removal, but instead will survive with the amount of armored it has, example is if defensive end got shamrocketed, it would survive with 1 hp
The way I would nerf time to shine is either make it make a random plant do a bonus attack or make a random plant or zombie do a bonus attack.
No, thats a horrible idea.
A zombie do a bonus attack with a plant super power??? No thanks. Be careful not to be assassinated .yu are way too smart.
if shamrocket cost 6 it will kill the card and defensive end garg will make it cost 8 (only 1) how its fair to the plant hero ? also guardian class do not have ways to gain extra sun (only wall knight) if you put 2 defensive ends its gg them ? also you can teleport zombies making shamrocket useless and buffing the card with tricks or using parasol zombie ... please fry think again the game is based in in pvz 1 and 2 to defense your lawn not die to zombies with no response
I think it should cost 5
Fry states that big plants are counters to big zombies
U h, freeze exists?
removal for 1
Well,we still have spring bean
Shamrocket should cost 4 at most. Costing 6 would make it bullshit.
I feel like wannabe would need to be 7 because of the prospect of gargologist ramp, if wannabe is 6, you can now play it on 4, where the plants have, noshamrocket, no big minion, with a 6attack 21health in the field that they can to nothing about it
I am curious why you want to increase the cost of squash when I never see you use it at 5. I understand it is outclassed by shamrocket, but for every non-walnut solar hero, if the card should be nerfed, shouldn’t most competitive decks run it?
It’s due to how if you listen, Squash would just replace Shamrocket once it’s at 5 cost, you have no limitations on it. If Shamrocket is nerfed to a 5 cost card, then Squash would need to have a slight nerf so that the Event card doesn’t just become useless.
@@Predator20357 But for that to happen, you would need to justify nerfing squash, which is ridiculous.
@@melvint-p9500 It’s a common card versus a Event Card, a Event Card is going to have better treatment than a common one.
We are finally getting some balance changes after 3 years
One idiot kept on spamming that Pineclone needed a buff to compete with Cro Mag.
If you wanna make gargs viable the answer isn't just as simple as nerfing sham and doom the issue with big stated minions is they're slow and bricky
maybe make wizard garg grant all gargs untrickable
@@thesmartestluigi still kinda slow tbh also outclassed by umbrella zombie
@@ljtheone oh
I feel like PvZ Heroes' big cards would either work:
- if mana cheating would be actually viable (instead in hearthstone, where having cards like Gather your Party (summon a minion from your deck), Boomship (legendary, summon three from hand) and it works incredibly well if it's well balanced -- NOT talking about cards like voidcaller which are stupidly balanced). Right now, for zombie side it requires you running almost up to 3 almost dead-lategame cards in your hand/wasting your tempo on 3 to setup a combo and for plant side, it requires your minions to survive to give value to you (which even then it doesn't, since the only hero with efficient card draw will run aggro decks since they're just this better),
- if, just onto what the Fry said, there wasn't SO MUCH removal packed into this hell of a game. From my early days of this game, people non-stop use Locust Swarm, Plumber, Rockets, Cuts, Spikeweeds, and the like and most non-Taco ranks haven't moved on from that concept yet to use a deck without half of it being removal cards (ofc it's good to use them, but other strategies also exist-- or, would rather exist if some cards wouldn't be as efficient). I think that making atleast some other strategies (like Big decks or Midrange) much more promising and reliable would make this game's meta MUCH different from what it always was.
Big cards would work if this game actually had good removal so that games could go on longer. Want gargs to be better? Buff Zombie removal so that you can survive long enough to actually play them. Want Cornucopia to be better? Buff Plant removal so that you can survive until t10 to play it. Removal doesn't need nerfs; it needs buffs for both sides so that late-game strategies can flourish.
@@boberttheboss8990 the thing is, some removals just don't allow some cards to exist in meta bc usually turn 5 is where all minion cards start dying to most removal (squash and swarm mark that spot)
My point is, that the harder is it to spend your mana to remove a card AND build tempo (place minions) the better it will be for the game. Removal being cheaper/better will do the opposite, as it will allow faster decks to shine (allowing on t5 to e.g. spring bean supernova garg and place tricarrotops, which puts the opponent at a HUGE layback in the match)
@@aloe7794 Except that's not how the game works. All a 2 cost card t5 does is blockcharge or deal chip damage, and your opponent can just plunk that Supernova down next turn. Better removal doesn't make faster decks better; faster decks still won't run removal because they want to win as quickly as possible, not remove threats they don't care about. Making removal cheaper means that control decks can actually counter faster decks and not die early on, thus slowing down the game and letting lategame strategies be played.
Devs: *see this*
Devs after seeing this: *pretends to be dead by not updating anything*
Forget me Nuts needs a rework to make the game more fun. Especially with the fruitcake and rocket nerf forget me nuts becomes way too good at protecting other big plays by the plants
*n i b b l e*
What's wrong with forget me nuts
@@rein9407 Turn 1 you can't kill forget me nuts. So on turn 2, plants make a turn 2 that can't be answered cause you need to deal with forget me nuts. Turn 3 same thing, turn 2 play still on the field. This goes on each turn until zombies are able to get the perfect answers or just lose to the tempo disadvantage.
@@travisprescott9708 (same thing as I replied to @Floof or Poof). Turn 1 you can't kill forget me nuts. So on turn 2, plants make a turn 2 that can't be answered cause you need to deal with forget me nuts. Turn 3 same thing, turn 2 play still on the field. This goes on each turn until zombies are able to get the perfect answers or just lose to the tempo disadvantage.
@@franinja2000 that is the point of forget me nuts and dont worry they always have a op rolling stone. And do yu have problem with teacher zombie too? I bet no cuz yu are a zombie main.
If you want gargs to be better removal isn’t the problem the problem is gargs themself they don’t have enough support
Pumpking should have been nerfed by conjuring a garg instead of a monster since more gargs fit the theme than monsters
EDIT: Something that I should say is that I don't hate fry as a person, i just heavily disagree with him and want to share my opinion on the subject.
Funny that you say you want the game to have more variety, because you killed the deck that you were trying to help and already was struggling or straight-up didn't exist. All these changes do is make the game faster than it already is. Control straight-up dies because all removal is gone. The reason gargs and other big zombies don't see play aren't just because of one card in one class (no, I am NOT counting doom/squash because they are currently completely unviable) because, theoretically, gargs would be pretty good against the 6 heroes that can't run the card. It's because those cards are currently too slow for the meta. Either that, or they were always garbage and need a rework. In reality, gargs do better AGAINST sham becuase if the hero is running sham, that means that they are playing slower and that gives you time to get your gargs out on the field. If you nerf all removal and kill control because of it, gargs will become even worse because nobody will be running slow decks anymore and all there will be are really fast aggro and tempo decks because you barely nerfed aggro, and gargs (and control in general) will be unplayable.
I have been trying to find a comment like this on Frys' videos. This is the real truth! If you nerf shamrocket and other removal, then just screw removal I guess. Tempo beats control. Control is slow, that's how its supposed to work. Tempo is good against control because they are gonna have big minions, and its gonna be hard to take out the field of big minions. By removing removal, plants have no reason to run control (as if they had a reason to run it before), and the meta becomes faster than before. People wont run any removal. They'll just run aggro and tempo, and now that removal is obsolete, these decks become faster than before. Gargs will be even MORE unplayable.
maybe the next part, he will try to balance early game cards as well
ramp to removals xd
I agree with a bit of what you’re saying, but I don’t understand the argument that gargs are good against sham. If you play a 5 cost garg and they sham it, then they have 2 suns left to fuck you up with tempo. It gets worse when you run more expensive gargs like wannabe hero or king of the grill.
If the meta is fast paced then people would change decks too, gargs are pain if you don't have a removal in hand
It would be epic if this game got a mod that worked like a set 5.
buffing sizzle? nah, more like nerfing everything so they're the same level as sizzle. like that will ever work
Sizzle cost 3 then there won't be anything else that needs a nerf
Summary of this video. Nurf every good plant and buff every zombies. No thanks. Very bad ideas. Annoying zombie mains.
Exactly, fry is so toxic. Just watch all his zombie playing video he is so annoying
Fry: *talking about very decent buffs and nerfs*
Devs: *sees the chat disagreeing and saying squash should cost 4 and valk/trickster should be buffed* “Take notes, take notes”
Do the devs even look at this game anymore.
@@Erik_Montesinos no
@@Erik_Montesinos nope
He isnt talking about decent buffs or nerfs hes trying to make the game all aggro
Squash should actually cost 4. It's irredeemably bad right now at 5.
I really disagree about fry's take on haunted Pumpking. The entire reason why the card is too strong isn't because of its stats, rather how terrible the monsters you conjure are on average. If those cards were as good as what exploding fruitcake could give you the card would be perfectly balanced. Nerfing the stats would kill the card entirely along with killing the best budget deck on the plants side.
1 cost 4/1 wouldn't be viable???
@@FryEmUpGaming It would for sure but I really think that's just the wrong way to nerf it. You've said it yourself how weak most of the cards it conjures are. By doing that it'd make the game more fun since cards like ghost and could be a functional sticky card and cosmic yeti could be a fun and strong card.
@@FryEmUpGaming I prefer a 3/2
but fruitcake is also busted
Entiendo muy poco pero disfruto viendo a Fry. Like si no hablas inglés y lo ves :D
Posdata: you are the best Fry!
Seedling is SOOOOOO OP that SHAM ROCKET CANT even KILL IT
What about making Time to Shine give a plant -1 or -2 attack then does a Bonus Attack?
20k subs congrats
He needs more
The leap flavored text for leap should be: we need one we really do.
Im surprised you never said anything about grave removal, aren't big gravestones unviable because of how cheaply you can remove them?
I was thinking gravebuster (and possibly blockbuster) should be changed to:
Reveal a zombie and deal 5 damage to it.
This still kills all early gravestones , allows expensive gravestones to survive and still get value out of them.
*flick em up*
The way to develope big gravestones is to run earlier gravestones, to absorb the opponent's grave removal. If they pass on early gravestones, you gain an early tempo advantage. This is really well demonstrated by Pogo MUG.
@@FryEmUpGaming That just happens to be the same strat used in control decks by the reddit. I would like you to try and use that strat. Have cards like nova absorb sham and then use your finisher (i think garg throwing garg would work the best). I think that could help counter sham and make these cards work.
let's nerf a bricky silver bullet, yay
Shamrocket should be one cost
n o
in my opinion sham could stay as a 3 cost, maybe add draw like PvZH: U did
In my opinion smarocket is to powerful to my garg decks make it cost 6
In my opinion, Garg Throwing Garg should have lower strength and higher health so it's gimmick can shine more
It should cost less, that's the problem..
@@aalamvirsinghdhaliwal1701 I agree
32:10 ah yes, I used the wing nut to destroy the wing nut
Shamrocket should be a super rare card, like rocket science, it’s counterpart. That’s just me. But I don’t see why they couldn’t do that, or at least make it destroy 5 attackers or more
6 cost shamrocket is even worse than celestial custodian , it would be so trash it would make the bin look like a mansion , imagine a brick where every card in your hand are 6 cost unplayable cards , it should cost 4 at MAX
Low ranks is great because only 1/10 guardian matches have 1 shamrocket
EDIT: This is like the Community patch for DbD, only this game is not being developed rn.
How about for Briar Rose:
If a zombie hurts a flower and it survives, destroy it.
5cost briar is already pretty balanced though it's slower bricks more has underwhelming stats
Or you can make it's ability "once per turn"
Grave Buster should also be buffed because it trades equally for 2 cost Gravestone zombies, but there are so many gravestones more than 2 cost
Did you mean to write nerfed?
But it can also be useless
Two things one the way to buff bucket bay is giving the zombies in that environment armor and 2 poor pickle
Tricarrotops: Will become a 4/4.
Laser Bean: Will get Bullseye.
Aloesaurus: Will get Strikethrough.
Coffee Grounds: Will cost 3.
Doom-Shroom: Will only destroy the Zombies.
Cornucopia: Will make Team-Up Plants also in the lanes with a Plant.
Squash: Will cost 6.
Bean Counter: Will be a 2/1, but will Conjure one more Bean card.
Jumping Bean: Will be a 2/2.
Locust Swarm: Will cost 6.
Ancient Vimpire: Will cost 3.
Gargantuar-throwing-Gargantuar: Will get Frenzy.
Gentleman Zombie: Will become a Gourmet card, not a Party card anymore.
Cut Down to Size: Will target Plants with 6 Strength or more.
Rocket Science: Will target Plants with 5 Strength or more.
Wow this was uploaded quickly
Imo shamrocket instead of destroying zombies with 4 or more damage it should destroy zombies that cost a certain amount of brains or more like 5 or 6
This sounds weird but it would make Shamrocket rather unique than stupid if they completely rework it, such as "destroy a zombie with 2 traits or more" in my opinion
guys if shamrocket costed 6 then defensive end would be too good
well the thing right now is because when zombie plays a big guy, the plants get too much value by both killing that zombie with this then stick another minion on the field. So the nerf i think is justified so that the plants can either themselves play a big guy themselves or answer the zombie big guy, but not both
Make a card called “Stun” and its a zombie trick. Its a 2 or 3 cost card and it disables opponents block meter and its super-rare
So the block meter cant move up or trigger for a turn. Works if you have a lethal but the opponent block is almost full
Stun should be a legendary and four cost. Too OP as a 2-3 cost and super rare.
You mean Stun Grenade (5 cost legendary card) when played on a lane do 2 damage to a plant here and next door, enemy block meter cannot not trigger or go up
Fry what card do you despise more, Shamrocket or starch lord?
Weenie beanie
probably the viable one becuase there's at least a reason to hate it other than it being overrated (according to fry at least)
Yourself
My thoughts on shamrocket
Stay as a 3 cost
Make squash 4 cost
Same with the zombie side and make doomshroom should be a 7 cost
And a way to make gargs good
Make an untrickable Garg that makes then all untrickable
no
@@rein9407 why not
Tricks don't make gargs bad. Untrickable Gargs are still bad. It's cause they are way too slow. Aggro decks are too strong rn so gargs are unplayable
@@aalamvirsinghdhaliwal1701 control garg
@@Orpheus_224 The meta favours aggro way too much. Control Gargs is a bad deck because it's too slow
Why can't shamrocket would make zombie player conjure something when it destroyed a zombie
Thts actually pretty smart
he fixed it!
that would be a useless nerf (as if it needs one) because conjure literally isn't that good of a downside to a powerful card
14:54
Someone give derpyking a hug....
Ironically, while fry constantly complains about how gargantuars are completely useless because of sham, gargs are actually better against decks that run it.
Why are they better?
Gargs aren't bad because of removal, they're bad because they take too long to get started and as such are easily beat by aggressive decks. By using shamrocket instead of just focusing on winning, it slows both players down, giving gargs more time to get a foothold and start overwhelming the opponent.
@@boberttheboss8990 hearty should have ways of getting extra brains so they should be a little better
@@rein9407 Gargologist already exists to do that, and gargs are still garbage. If removal was better, though, then games might actually go long enough for gargs to start winning without having to rely on unreliable cards to get enough brains to cheat out gargs early. Of course, actual garg early game would help, but buffing removal for both sides would be a huge step in the right direction.
You comitted all your brains on gaining more tempo. They plop down a B. Rex on an empty lane on turn 3. It's turn 4: The B. Rex is either a 4/4 or a 5/5 , depending on block meter shenanigans. You saved up all of your brains to use Rocket science on the B. Rex. They either plop down a Plantern on Spikeweed Sector, covered a little Buddy with an Elderberry, a Veloci-Radish hunter or another B. Rex and use holo flora to buff both of them. You can have 7/7 or 5/5 worth of stats on the battlefield on turn 4. You then proceed to smash your phone with a hammer. Plus, it's double strike. Bananasaurus Rex is already balanced as she is. We don't need to make her completely broken. Me: In this case Starch lord would be op. This also doesn't mention the fact that they can also play Re-Peat Moss dry with more pressure. They don't have to worry about Moss being removed off the field because the zombie hero would be spending most of their brains getting rid of the B. Re
skill issue
Your nerf explanation for sham rocket and squash makes sense. Guardian class only has sham rocket, and squash is only solar class. You want the better removal, you need to change your hero.
heyo u wwnt some *f r e e z e ?*
that's horrible logic. by your logic, sizzle is fine.
Squash: costs 5
Fry: lest make sham rocket cost 5 or more
He suggestes making squash 7
@@Reginald_Ritmo i know and is also dumb because Fry thinks: "hey how about needing a 7 cost card to kill a 4 cost Garg combo".
Wow genius
I would want to see teacher be a 4/2 3 cost that makes zombie tricks cost two less. I feel like that would make it more balanced.
Eyespore: cost 2 stats 1/3
When zombie lost his health and strength once per turn, it's get +1/+1. Fusion: a zombie losts -2/-2
i think haunted pumkin should stay the same but instead of conjure a monster make it so it draws a card
Making pogo 5 makes it so you can get him in bmr tough that might be broken since then you can open up a line for your highest attack guy that you get in bmr and just wreck the plant hero
Hey less chances to get mug from bmr I'll take it