I think I heard ideas like this described as "medium core". There's a drawback to losing, but it's not like you lose your whole character. It'll be an adjustment for some casual players for sure, but I think many SC players will actually enjoy this change once they're used to it.
As someone who was exclusively HC before the game got too big and long and meta-balanced, people really want mediumcore anyway even if they don't say it. They secretly want high impact, dangerous gameplay, where your decisions actually matter, where you're rewarded for doing well, where success has actual value and banging your head against a wall isn't a viable option. Hardly anyone enjoys minecraft in creative mode, or playing games with all kinds of cheats on.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS That just it. I want some risk (beyond losing some XP), I just don't want to have to start from scratch. This looks to be a nice middle ground.
90% of the PoE subreddit is incapable of adjusting the laces on their shoes let alone to a mechanic like this. The crying is going to be absolutely monumental over there.
I'm worried that it will encourage the scummy tactic of logout macros. If they don't fix that issue, I don't really see a point in locking people out of maps when they die.
I play totems a lot. I used to abuse the hell out of the fact that if you die, your totems stayed alive for their duration and continued blasting the boss. In fact so much so that I thought I'd never be able to beat half the bosses if they ever took that away. But then they did take it away. It was rough at first but then I realized I was only so shit I needed to abuse that because I never bothered (or needed to) play and build better. I had the ability to get good enough at the game to not abuse that. This will get people out of their comfort zone. Those who have no desire to get better will instead play other games. Nothing wrong with that. Those who do adapt will get better at the game and maybe even find more enjoyment as I did. There are plenty of other ARPG games that do it the other way. There are none I know of that do it this way. Those who do not wish to adapt have a ton of other choices but those who like this system have none. Not every game needs to be for everyone but it's nice for some games to fill a niche that no other would.
@liquideblade8075 thats wrong, poe van be played in any build, you need to simply reach a threshold, any build can reach 8 digit dps number with investment
Yes AND this means bosses are DESIGNED with '1 chance' in mind. Rather than 6. This will increase overall quality and feel big time. AND it could make the game more 'designed with Hardcore in mind' instead of an afterthought.
Ya but how is anyone supposed to learn boss mechanics with 1 chance here and there? That's my only issue. Give me hard bosses, but give me the Dark Souls approach of unlimited chances but you actually have to learn the mechanics. And the boss resets it's health when you die. That was the real issue with PoE 1. Being able to "chisel" bosses.
@@JayBigDadyCy Agreed that chipping away was also lame. But going for a 1:1 with single player Dark Souls bosses wouldn't be the right fit for the endgame of an ARPG. Remember, you do get unlimited chances in the campaign bosses (where the comparison to Dark Souls is more fair)
@@JayBigDadyCyremember ben said if you don’t know how strong the boss is just overlevel and overgear so that the difficulty doesn’t matter that much anymore. This address players who blast through things, game just aáks you to go way slower and observe more carefully
@JayBigDadyCy i agree with this a lot. I really wouldn't mind having to one shot a boss to win if every time I failed, i could just release and instantly go again. They have already said if you fail, it is just gone and how they designed poe 1, I doubt they would ever design rereaching the boss again would ever be that quick.
I think it is super important they hold to the one death per map. Not only does it allow them to make the rewards better because they are not guaranteed but it puts a cap on build degeneracy. Should also have a good impact on the balancing of the game. It has always felt gross dying 5 times in a map, the last 2 portals running around picking up loot because the unique that has been slaughtering you catches up. This is the main reason POE 1 players will cry about this. They are used to being able to juice their maps far past what they ought to but getting away with it. You can choose the waystone level & you can see when you are fighting bosses. From everything I have seen you have a ton of agency at end game so death is more avoidable than it ever has been.
It will also have the effect of more recommended builds being reasonable. I've always hated the six portal meta because it meant that I end up hating most meta mapping builds. I hate dying and have no interest in glass cannon builds but because the six portal meta is a thing most builds are glass cannons. That shouldn't be a thing in POE 2.
Oddly dying and being tanky aren't necessarily the same. If your damage projection is good enough [I.E. quickly & reliably wiping the screen] you probably won't die much. Out of the last 4-5 leagues my character with the least number of deaths was actually a mapper where my goal was to "not get hit" and/or to wipe the screen before I would get randomly hit.
I think that's what they'll end up eventually doing when game officially releases. Not being able to retry pinnacle bosses while learning mechanics is backward.
@@rich1231 I already think in poe 1 you should be able to learn bosses with a particular invite or whatever that doesnt drop loot. What if i want to learn a fight or heck enjoy the fight without the fee a loot based fight would bring?
@@soulstealer5625 Agree. I hear (hope?) that GGG redesigns the game up so that the only times you will die is if [somehow] you "let" yourself get surrounded OR you are not able to get out of the way of a powerful attack that is BOTH highly telegraphed AND has a slow windup so you'll have plenty of time to recognize and get out of the way.
@@erutherford I member sirius before he was a fragment boss. Oh here you are after 28 maps or so to fight him. Oh you died six times cause hes confusing and poorly designed? See you later in another 28+ maps by which time u probably forgetten how how operates.
That's more the way i approached poe1 anyways. Great that poe2 now enforces this. I mostly played softcore but used builds that are hc viable. Playing a glass cannon and dying to random stuff just isn't fun. The only thing i "corpse rushed" where some bosses that where part of challenges but i couldn't do deathless. Either becaue my build wasn't a bosser or i sucked at the boss mechanics. 😅
You do need a good build in softcore, it's just that your definition of what is a good build is very different because you're a regular HC player. I can tell you, as a scrub that without a good build I get absolutely fucked against any endgame boss. I would not be surprised if they give us more than one chance at pinacle bosses during early access. We'll have to see how the difficulty works and how points in each "league" tree makes those bosses harder.
Great points Lily. Personally I do not play HC, but I almost always play like I was. I prefer to never die, and are quite aware of any weaknesses my build has. Normally I manage to get to like lvl 95 with zero or maybe 2-3 deaths, and I think for me this way of dealing with player mortality is great. Also, no more Cast on Death builds, even if it was severely nerfed a few leagues back, I always thought it was so stupid.
The worst thing about POE1 was how spikey damage was. POE2 being balanced around being able to complete content deathless gives me confidence that damage will be more manageable. Agree 100% about bossing, no keys we just sell away is going to make bossing profitable to do again.
The current state of the Atlas design will definitively cut down most glass-cannon build approaches to gameplay. Your defenses will have to be attended to very seriously or else. On the upside, as far as I understand it, if you completely brick-wall yourself by repeat dying, you will be able to randomly generate a new Atlas map to restart your exploration. Personally, I love this concept.
The issue is they are trying for a dark souls type of boss fight and in that game you get multiple attempts and its only a short distance to get back to them. You need repetition to get experience in the fight and learn it. If i fight a boss and he kills me, it might be hours before I find him again on the atlas. They should give you the 6 attempts, but the boss should completely reset when a portal is used. So its 6 attempts (per atlas node), but you have to still kill them in a single attempt.
yup. You can also go spend an hour at an xp grind spot and crank out 20 levels, then spend that in vitality to get 20-50% more hp, then take 30 minutes to get some weapon upgrade items and max out your weapon and then try again. In poe, if your build is shit, you may need hundreds of hours to significantly improve it.
@@j.lucasdecastroaraujo761 Easier but maybe not cheaper. It'll cost you tons of gold if your are respeccing late in the game. Just something to keep in mind;)
" If i fight a boss and he kills me, it might be hours before I find him again on the atlas" Shaper/Elder influence on the Atlas PTSD starts kicking in... what a nightmare of a mechanic that was, even worse if the league had way too little map drops.
I'm not sure if this approach will sit as well as some people think. I think the better approach for bosses is the more Dark souls-like approach which is have as many attempts as you want. But if you die the boss goes back to full health. That way there's no continuously fighting the boss six times and chiseling away at their health. You have to actually learn the mechanics in order to beat the fight. I think GGG Is trying to head in this direction for difficulty. I think they are taking a lot of notes from from soft's book which is incredible. I wish more people would. But this will be more of a trial thing and we'll see how the community really feels about it. Once everybody gets to play it. Maybe it'll be awesome and it'll be something that everybody likes. Maybe most people will be like. Ah, this could be better.
Boss going back to full health would be a much better system, I think. I would be surprised if the current system - being locked out of the map - will stay after early access.
What makes Dark Souls and co so great for me is the fact that it's okay to fail. What would you do with this? Instead of closing a map when you die, you could simply delete all the loot. This would make it possible to really learn a boss without devaluing the loot.
I said the exact same in my comment. We'll see how the community feels about it. But I have a feeling that they'll have to make some changes. Especially to bosses because if they want to go the Dark Souls route which is kind of what they're doing. You really should give people infinite tries at the boss, but you have to actually learn the fight and the mechanics in order to beat it. Instead of like in poe1 where you can just chisel the boss's health away six times and you either lose or you finally beat them just by chipping away at their health. I mean, how am I supposed to learn the mechanics to a fight if I only get one shot at it every so often?
@@JayBigDadyCy they are not going Dark Souls route in fights, you can think that because of the footage we've seen that was either made to be slower (for new people to the game) or was slower due to content creators experimenting and wanting to show off stuff as well as go through as much as they can as fast as they can, but Dark souls combat is slow paced 1 hit at a time. Poe 2 is not slow paced 1 hit at a time, you're doing multiple hits and you can very well do multiple BIG hits to a boss depending on your build and skills. Like watch Subtractem video where he shows off Merc and Sorc. He dropped +2 to cold skills and 47% inc cold dmg staff, and he absolutely obliterated early game bosses. What does it mean? That you can absolutely obliterate end game bosses with a good build just like in Poe 1 without problems
@@trixon2118 If PoE 2 is anything like PoE 1 there is worlds of difference between campaign and pinnacle bosses. Besides, you can die repeatedly to campaign bosses. We just haven't seen any late game bosses yet to gauge how successful fights against them will be.
The number of portals doesn't have anything to do with the profitability of bossing, at least not more than any other difficulty lever. The profit you can get from spam killing a boss is mostly defined by the difficulty of the boss and the usefulness of its drops, reducing the number of portals just increases the difficulty. The "gambling" issue is gonna stay there, it's always gonna stay there, because the alternative is a small consistent profit every time which gets boring extremely fast. There's a reason nobody runs memories despite them pretty much always being profitable: you get nearly the exact same profit every time, and each run plays out pretty much the same. That said, going down to 1 portal is great because it makes it impossible to go -60% exp because of the sunk cost fallacy. Other than that this changes nothing about the game
"The number of portals doesn't have anything to do with the profitability of bossing" -> "not more than any other difficulty lever" -> "The profit you can get...is mostly defined by the difficulty of the boss" ... bro are you ok? did you have a stroke? Seek a doctor
I personally think its just gonna be gamba with the boss drops ..since you will lose all portals if you die players will just sell the boss portal to some optimised bosser build...I dont think NEW poe players will have a good time with this...its just my opinion..only time will tell..hope poe 2 will be awesome..
yep, it could be very frustrating if we end up with stuff like kalandra level of rares where you would rip 6 portals to a single mob because it rolled a bad set of mods which make it stronger than a pinnacle boss
@@InfinitesimaLacuna i kinda get what you’re saying. Yes you can die to Sirus die beam, come back hit him more, die again, repeat, die to the maze, repeat and still kill him. But seriously, 6 tries is not the same as “infinite” tries.
Awful take. I didn’t sign up to play ruthless. Maybe don’t condition your player base to 6 portals and then all of a sudden drop down to 1. Sticking with poe1 till they fix this in poe2
@@kuroh0241I don’t think they will fully backtrack, but will instead make it possible to mitigate somehow. So like you can maybe get another try, but doing so requires some rare resource that you gotta get elsewhere
Amen. PoE is such a MASSIVE time sink, that just makes the idea of Hardcore insane to me. But I hate having next to no consequences for dying in softcore. PoE 2's method sounds amazing.
I do not think this is a good thing for the vast majority of the player base, since almost everyone is scared to do hard content, that's exactly the reason "services" for said content is the best seller on discords, but we will need to see for ourselves how it is going to be
I think I will never do a boss unless I have a strong enough character to never die to the mechanics. I was never a fan of the bosses in Poe. (Or any ARPG for the matter). Maybe with WASD controls, I’ll be able to navigate the storm of crap on the green trying to kill me.
I doubt that will be [much of?] an option with PoE2. Fortunately I suspect attacks will be telegraphed more so you won't necessarily have to "memorize" the fight(s).
Ah I finally found a same-minded player ! I also don't play ARPG's for the bossfights, that's why I have been very demotivated and anti-hyped for PoE 2. The recent reveal finally did hype my up a bit, but I'll be the guy that does all the non-boss maps and probably avoid most bosses.
@ yeah. I also feel like I’m in the minority for not liking bosses. I managed to do most non uber bosses in poe, but always many seasons later when they weren’t new anymore. The latest bosses were ok, I guess. But I can’t see how people think a “Simon says” game in the middle of boss fight in an ARPG is fun.
This has a pretty decent chance to backfire hard aswell, unless they fix alot of the oneshots and poor visual clarity that PoE 1 has. It wont really affect me that much since I got 2,4k hours in Poe 1 so i will be more used to how to play an arpg but imagine Joe Dude who has never played an arpg once in his life tries PoE 2 has fun and then finally gets to the endgame, he steps into a map dies instantly and has no idea why and now he is nolonger able to go into the map, and i that is the case I think a large portion of new players will just leave the game at that and never return, Insted I think the early maps should allow 6 attempts and as you move up in tiers and difficulty you go to 4 then 2 then 1 Since tier 1 should be for ppl learning the game. (sorry if i formulated this poorly english is not my native language)
BIG TRUE, people are gonna ha ve a field day with this dying thing now. I do belive its healthier for the game that you can now "lose" and not just "oh I lost money doing this"
This is huge. I remember hitting a wall back when I was new at around 200-300 hours into the game, because I kept making characters and forcing them through the campaign even I though I kept dying to bosses. This is because none of my characters had any defense- I would always pick damage nodes- and the game DOES NORTHING to teach players about the ele resist penalty you get after killing Kitava. So I would spend all this time, for me it was like 1 week to get a character to maps at the time, and then get to maps, and struggle through t1-5 until i scrapped the build because i thought it wasn't good unless i had 1000000 exalts, top currency at the time. So i think not being able to brute force a boss is definately a 10000% bonus.
Where exactly are these 6-portal builds? It seems like we're living 7-8 years ago. People still refer to mathil builds as 3k life builds but that's just not a thing. This change will kill build diversity even more than it has been and will suck out the joy of playing jank. This will not survive until launch. The thing described in the video just doss not exist.
So people are already scared to even attempt bosses with 6 ports now we make it so people now only have 1 attempt or get fucked. I have a bunch of friends that will not attempt bosses unless someone is on that is able to come save it and they generally use 3-4 portals then call someone in. Now I don't think any of them will ever do a boss again.
@@obscurside3652 for sure that is why most people never bother to even attempt to learn even know they have 6 portals currently. They will be even less likely to attempt to learn with 1. Can't gain skill without practice.
what is sad is in poe1 people just don't want to miss out on possible jackpot, its all about the Divs and not the experience.... that "scared" you talking about is just FOMO, which in a videogame is kinda lame
@@obscurside3652I mean, you can say skill issue all you want but the outcome is still the same. The game will lose players if this isn't executed right.
Good point, but there are issues too, for instance atlases are independent. So after grinding with friends, you go to your ho and you have nothing explored there.
Thats a very "I play 10 hours a day" take. Imagine elden ring if you, after dying to a boss, needs to go back to the start of the game before going back to that boss and try again. That seems a miserable time.
I do not play 10 hours a day. I enjoy PoE for the challenge aspect - I havent been playing all that long, still learning, still kinda bad. I will 100% get largely bored of PoE when I have "done everything" in softcore. Personally greatly look forward to the change in gameplay philosophy in PoE2. There are plenty of sandbox games out there - an endless supply in fact. I enjoy a bit of challenge - all of the games I prefer to play contain some degree of challenge.
> "needs to go back to the start of the game before going back to that boss" You don't go back to the start of the game, that what hardcore would be. You just lose a run and need to do some work to get back to it. A ton of games work like this, a ton of games pull off much harsher punishment and are definitely not miserable time, stop being dramatic
Exactly, if they want thsi to be Path of Dark Souls they will need to give the player the tools to deal with failure. Failing a boss you won't see again for days is not that.
as someone who played all souls games before trying poe 1 i was turned off when i found out dying to bosses meant nothing. back then i thought poe is like souls you get stronger, beat bosses and beat the game after acts.
you do relized that people play softcore can be either they don't have enough time to practice hardcore or simply don't have a stable enough internet connection to consistently survive ? and what problem are you talking about ? there is already a solution for said problem in poe 1 and it's called "HARDCORD MODE", if you want a mediumcore mode then make one, don't shove it down the throat of people who enjoyed traditional softcore mode
One thing I don't like is how you cannot force a boss fight, you need to find it on the altas map, it is just random with zero control on the player side. This is delve all over again and honesty I hate it.
Something I haven't seen any discussion on is trading. I am frequently porting out to make a trade in PoE1, now that can't happen. I wonder how they plan on addressing this, a more "complete" Faustus that has items too? Otherwise trading is going to be even worse than it is now. I dunno? Probably OD'd on turkey at this point!
I only play solo-self found. My builds are dependent on the gear I can find or craft. Sometimes fortune smiles on me, usually it does not. I think this system is going to feel a bit more punishing. I don't mind working for it as long as the game gives me a fair chance to succeed.
I still don't get what happens exactly on the map. Does it keeps expanding and we keep going in a direction like delve? Is there a way to reset it in case you somehow box yourself in? What makes it scale in difficulty, just the glyphs we're slotting or the 'depth' of the distance we've traveled?
I don't think this feature is going to remain in poe2 for long... the softcore version anyway. Otherwise casual players will probably not stick around for long.
i think this should not get implemented without any contermesure to not brick your progression ( for example dc a few times and then the whole area is unaccessable)
Only 3000? Playing in Papua New Guinea, if my build can't tank a 10sec lag spike it's useless. Not looking forward to the 1 attempt Pinacle boss fights as majority of my deaths are due to DC's
Since boss hp is already comming back to 100% and you HAVE to kill them from 100 to 0, having only 1 portal to a map in an EA is a HUUUGE mistake. There's no way the game is ballanced enough in order for this change not be frustrating and make the new players rage quit, plus learning boss mechanics in one take is definitelly not the way to go, and also since you can't risk dieing and losing everything the mobs dropped, you'll HAVE to be constantly picking the loot as you progress further in the map, so it tends to make delirium and breach boring with all the backtracking. One more thing, MELEE!!! this system tends to keep PoE2 as PoE1, where people avoid melee at all cost (even having 6 portals), imagine having just 1? Idk... i need more thoughts on it...
No, the reason You can do 100 uber bosses and still lose money is challanges, and TFT has a big part in it, there are people on TFT who can do challenge carry service all day, they buy the invitation, take the loot and 3-5 people with them and make them pay for getting a challenge done, that covers the cost of entry and more, so they never can lose money if they get a bad drop, unless they fail a boss. This brings up the price of entry because these people don't care how much the entry is, as other players pay for them basically, and brings down the price of the good loot so even if You get it after 20-30 entries You still lose money. This makes doing aspirational uber endgame content almost impossible to be profitable, unless You are very lucky, or You bring other people with You and make them pay You for challenge. People were still doing that on global/trade chat before TFT existed but TFT made it much, much, much more common and most of people who do it all day for a month are doing it to RMT the currency later The only way to solve this in PoE1 is to stop making Pinnacle Boss challenges, which is not ideal because they are supposed to be challenge. Or a better solution which I think would actually solve the issue, make the challenge count only for the host.
I think the idea here is to encourage players to balance their damage vs survivability. That's why I always liked some sort of penalty for dying in softcore. It forced me to invest in at least one type of defense. In something like D4, glass cannons are way better than tanky builds, so everybody just prioritizes dps.
I agree but in games like PoE1 it could go too far the other way. I've had characters with half a million armour, 90% all ele res, 75+% chaos res ; recover full life in about 4 seconds ... all get shredded randomly at times. Fortunately [hopefully?] I understand that the design goal is to at least make it FEEL LIKE if you die it was almost certainly your fault so some of the "BS" in PoE1 shouldn't happen any more.
@erutherford Oh yeah, for sure. I agree with everything you said. Hopefully PoE2 can improve in that department. On a side note, I for one like that they are slowing down the zoom zoom gameplay. Not necessarily a fan of souls-like or No rest for the wicked gameplay, but PoE1 gameplay was becoming ridiculous. Watching any of the Mathil builds these days is like watching a giant blur.
I don't think getting one attempt at a boss every few hours is a fun way to learn a fight. I'd rather have them disable loot, but give us more portals so we actually get to learn and practice fights. That was one of my only complaints with PoE1 actually, that the entry-cost was so high for a lot of bosses that learning was too resource and time-consuming - especially for newer players. I mean, imagine a Dark Souls boss where you get 1 try and then you have to work your way through hours of regular enemies before you get to try it again. I don't know. I don't think that's going to be fun, unless the boss mechanics are really intuitive and telegraphed.
I play SC cause I know i dont have the skill or patience for HC. Getting dicked over by server issues is also an issue. Medium core isnt too bad as I'm also a player who hates corpse rushing something and will take a character death hard even if its not a big deal compared to HC. I'm hard on myself if ive died 5 times for act 10 Kitava, I've seen SC andies corpse rush Kitava and finish in like 100 deaths.
I'm not understanding but it sounds like if you die to a "waystone" map, you'll lose access to it permanently? Or just for the found waystone, can you try again with another? Cause in my head what if I have a crappy build and I "lose" all the maps? Am I then permanently effed?
If we are lucky they can add back in the fun of perandus league, you can complete half the lab and then lag out and lose it all as shaders and other elements refuse to load. It will give consequences and help us rage quit more.
I think disconnects are handled differently than deaths so you might (?) be able to use a logout macro / disconnect as oppose to outright loosing a map.
i like it for normal maps/bosses but for big bosses i think they should allow multiple portals (but full fight reset if you die) if you only get 1 attempt on a pinnacle boss people will feel like they have to study multiple videos before even trying the fight which i dont think is very good and if the fight resets you still have to learn the fight and be strong enough to beat it in 1 go.
I'm not going to cast a vote yet, I will wait and try myself. If the bosses are what they promised it will be fine by me, something along the lines of Dark Souls/Elden Ring were I know exactly why I died, it looks fine watching the videos but I'm not yet sure. Now if it's like PoE 1 where I have to go to wiki to find out that X boss has elemental penetration or somehing else that completely invalidade the defenses I built without having a chance to learn the fight it will suck, a lot. I honestly think it won't survive the EA, we will know soon enough.
im very confused so how does this work for like the campaign? does this mean when you lose to a act boss or die in a certain area of the game ur character is just bricked? lol
Sorry, I dont agree with your take on this mechanic in softcore... this isnt a "people should just get used to it thing." There are hundres of new bosses and the map bosses have different AI mechanics from the campaign bosses. The is an L take in my opinion. You should have multiple attempts on maps and bosses, refill the bosses health to full when you die.. thats fine, but giving only 1 attempt for a map and its bosses is a big L. This is my only concern with POE2, I enjoy everything else. I really hope they adjust this so everyone doesnt have to just "deal with it" from HC players points of view.
That actually solves a major issue I had with most ARPGs (and I feel I'm not alone in that), is that softcore almost has ZERO consequences for dying and hardcore has severe consequences, it's actually one of the reasons I drop most ARPGs after a little while, softcore becomes so boring and thoughtless very quickly after you try out few builds and see what the game has to offer, and hardcore becomes too intense and too risky because you could lose your character due to bad luck or RNG (or in case of online RPGs due to connection issues which is even worse). So I think it's freaking brilliant that they are creating a very nice middle ground between softcore and hardcore that makes you feel the intensity of HC while also not completely destroying your enjoyment like when you die a luck based death in HC, my hope is that they stand their ground and don't change things when predictably some people would start crying about it.
this would be acceptable if literally anything about the game mechanics was explained in depth. and it didn't take 4-5 third party tools to play. and the devs didn't playtest anything. need I go on?
@@johnturtle6649 No, you are full of shit, the game isn't out yet and we actually know very little about what it feels like to play the endgame, so stop making shit up because it's really embarrassing.
i'm really happy there's no life nodes on the tree, the game is balanced around that and you can invest into more interesting defence mechanics than just clicking a small life node + notable along the way. literally less choice = more choice
I'm 100% sure they will come back from this, sooner than later. It's all nice and shiny on paper, but if you just look at player retention and not scaring away the D4 people that they won over, those won't stay if they lose one every other map. Losing stuff is just not fun, losing a map is not fun, playing the devil's advocate here, people won't stay if they keep losing their maps. It's not like in Dark Souls, where dying is expected. I'm neutral on this, I'm fine with either way probably, but I'm sure if they keep this the success of the game will suffer in the long term. I do worry especially about build diversity though, this approach removes a great ton of experimentation out and the best type of defense will determine what builds people will play, it will happen, and that's probably the biggest reason why theyy will at least change this system before the official release. Imagine releasing a game and already all the players that know what they're doing will play the same type of build, that's a nightmare scenario.
"Dying is optimal" wtf are you even talking about? No one likes dying or wants to die 6 times in a row that shits miserable. Reduce the portals to 3 but give a 25% quant/rarity penalty each time you die and make that clearly visible to the player. Let people realize, "damn i gotta beat this boss in one try to get full potential rewards, and if i fail completely i gotta come back to this later","Ok im gonna try my best these last 2 portals to see where my build is lacking, or learn the fight a bit more and NEXT time im gonna dunk on this guy". Force people to struggle, but allow them to learn. So when they come back and overcome that obstacle they get that hit of dopamine, sense of accomplishment and mastery of the game, plus better loot.
One problem here is that many casual players (That GGG are aiming to keep around this time) do not trade a lot and trivialize SC content with glass cannon builds in POE. Lots of people play SC and hardly trade, giving them 6 portals and still probably not a great chance to win. They aren't going in and infinitely trying again with no challenge to eventually kill boss. They are failing 6 times and quitting. Failing once and quitting wont be better. So the system to find a new way to try again will have to be really well done to keep those players or the same problem is there.
Id say its an improvement if it only applied to endgame bosses. Regular maps and other basic content it just gatekeeps. Glass cannon play style is just as respectable as afk simulacram farmer. The tankier you are the less you have to even pay attention in normal content. This isnt a change at all for hardcore players or people that enjoy tanky play style. But it completely screws anyone that enjoys the challenge of playing a low defense character. I get mad if I die once with 6 portals... But, If I only get 1 life, Id be an idiot to even try to play that challenge. Meaning either the game has to be piss easy, or build diversity just got cut massively.
TFare you on about, “losing”. You’re viewing the game from the eyes of someone with 1000s of hours. Or just completely forgot what it’s like to play as a person with a job. Dude, for the vast majority of the games existence it was extremely easy to brick your atlas. Get off your high horse pls
The single death thing wont survive. Once GGG sees their play base dwindle after the first month they will abandon that bad idea. I not a god gamer like you ds lily. I NEED multiple attempts at difficult content or i will just put it down and come back much much later. POE 1 is perfect when it comes to that. They don’t have to change everything, and they shouldn’t.
I'm really looking forward to this change. I hate the gameplay pattern of just mindlessly portaling back into a boss room to do as much dps as possible, ignoring the mechanics. Imo its bad design. This should make every boss encounter alot more intense and as they said, they can make them alot more rewarding aswell. Can't wait to try it out
Good Vid in that it provokes a conversation. I must admit I don't totally agree. I see the point that is made, but for me it totally depends on how GGG treated 'sales' of Boss invitations. If they are 'easiely' sellable via a discord server, that is absoluetly a step in the wrong direction in my humble opinion. IF it leads to more people actually trying the boss fights because they can't sell the invites I think I would actually agree with the point made in the video, for now I am simply afraid that this design might push the TFT discord once again.
I’m interested to see how this plays out. A large portion of ARPG players including PoE players are drawn to the power fantasy of it all, zooming around and deleting screens and collecting loot. Turning it into a Soulslike is a fundamentally different game experience. I love Souls games and understand the appeal of overcoming difficulty, but again, these are different games than ARPGs like PoE. The pursuit of loot and character building and incremental progress is the heart of ARPGs, not some arbitrary difficulty pass/fail.
i like one try on maps! :) less glass cannon builds. and it also will encourage multiplayer. but onely one try on a pinnacle bosses seems bad when still learning the mechanics...
To those who are not onboard with this - the atlas is INFINITE. Brick a map, wipe your tears, and run another map… find the boss again… play the game. I’ll be so disappointed if GGG goes back on this if people cry about it too much before they get used to it.
@@JayBills3 no one was complaining about not having gold. Using that as an example that they will change anything. Loosing a map due to one death, most likely due to a single modifier, will make the game objectively worse for most people and it will be a major complaint.
I think I heard ideas like this described as "medium core". There's a drawback to losing, but it's not like you lose your whole character. It'll be an adjustment for some casual players for sure, but I think many SC players will actually enjoy this change once they're used to it.
And posting before finishing the video meant I hadn't gotten to you mentioning Medium core yourself. That'll teach me :D
As someone who was exclusively HC before the game got too big and long and meta-balanced, people really want mediumcore anyway even if they don't say it. They secretly want high impact, dangerous gameplay, where your decisions actually matter, where you're rewarded for doing well, where success has actual value and banging your head against a wall isn't a viable option. Hardly anyone enjoys minecraft in creative mode, or playing games with all kinds of cheats on.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS That just it. I want some risk (beyond losing some XP), I just don't want to have to start from scratch. This looks to be a nice middle ground.
90% of the PoE subreddit is incapable of adjusting the laces on their shoes let alone to a mechanic like this. The crying is going to be absolutely monumental over there.
I'm worried that it will encourage the scummy tactic of logout macros. If they don't fix that issue, I don't really see a point in locking people out of maps when they die.
I don't mind dying six times in a map, but I do agree this is a good and challenging fix.
Peak game design.
you say that like youre doing the dishes. bro its a videogame not a chore
?
I play totems a lot. I used to abuse the hell out of the fact that if you die, your totems stayed alive for their duration and continued blasting the boss. In fact so much so that I thought I'd never be able to beat half the bosses if they ever took that away. But then they did take it away. It was rough at first but then I realized I was only so shit I needed to abuse that because I never bothered (or needed to) play and build better. I had the ability to get good enough at the game to not abuse that.
This will get people out of their comfort zone. Those who have no desire to get better will instead play other games. Nothing wrong with that. Those who do adapt will get better at the game and maybe even find more enjoyment as I did. There are plenty of other ARPG games that do it the other way. There are none I know of that do it this way. Those who do not wish to adapt have a ton of other choices but those who like this system have none. Not every game needs to be for everyone but it's nice for some games to fill a niche that no other would.
People will just be forced into playing meta builds and build variety will be lessened.
@liquideblade8075 thats wrong, poe van be played in any build, you need to simply reach a threshold, any build can reach 8 digit dps number with investment
Yes AND this means bosses are DESIGNED with '1 chance' in mind. Rather than 6. This will increase overall quality and feel big time. AND it could make the game more 'designed with Hardcore in mind' instead of an afterthought.
Ya but how is anyone supposed to learn boss mechanics with 1 chance here and there? That's my only issue. Give me hard bosses, but give me the Dark Souls approach of unlimited chances but you actually have to learn the mechanics. And the boss resets it's health when you die. That was the real issue with PoE 1. Being able to "chisel" bosses.
@@JayBigDadyCy Agreed that chipping away was also lame. But going for a 1:1 with single player Dark Souls bosses wouldn't be the right fit for the endgame of an ARPG. Remember, you do get unlimited chances in the campaign bosses (where the comparison to Dark Souls is more fair)
@@JayBigDadyCyremember ben said if you don’t know how strong the boss is just overlevel and overgear so that the difficulty doesn’t matter that much anymore. This address players who blast through things, game just aáks you to go way slower and observe more carefully
What it will do is bosses that have superhigh hp and telegraphed oneshots
@JayBigDadyCy i agree with this a lot. I really wouldn't mind having to one shot a boss to win if every time I failed, i could just release and instantly go again. They have already said if you fail, it is just gone and how they designed poe 1, I doubt they would ever design rereaching the boss again would ever be that quick.
I think it is super important they hold to the one death per map. Not only does it allow them to make the rewards better because they are not guaranteed but it puts a cap on build degeneracy. Should also have a good impact on the balancing of the game.
It has always felt gross dying 5 times in a map, the last 2 portals running around picking up loot because the unique that has been slaughtering you catches up. This is the main reason POE 1 players will cry about this. They are used to being able to juice their maps far past what they ought to but getting away with it.
You can choose the waystone level & you can see when you are fighting bosses. From everything I have seen you have a ton of agency at end game so death is more avoidable than it ever has been.
It will also have the effect of more recommended builds being reasonable. I've always hated the six portal meta because it meant that I end up hating most meta mapping builds. I hate dying and have no interest in glass cannon builds but because the six portal meta is a thing most builds are glass cannons. That shouldn't be a thing in POE 2.
Oddly dying and being tanky aren't necessarily the same. If your damage projection is good enough [I.E. quickly & reliably wiping the screen] you probably won't die much. Out of the last 4-5 leagues my character with the least number of deaths was actually a mapper where my goal was to "not get hit" and/or to wipe the screen before I would get randomly hit.
@@erutherford My point is that I don't want a build that needs to kill stuff first or die to the simplest shit. No thanks.
I think 1 death is ok on a normal map, but on bosses is more fun to allow 6 portals and resetting the boss life to full
I think that's what they'll end up eventually doing when game officially releases. Not being able to retry pinnacle bosses while learning mechanics is backward.
Yeah, they gonna tweak it during the EA
@@rich1231 I already think in poe 1 you should be able to learn bosses with a particular invite or whatever that doesnt drop loot. What if i want to learn a fight or heck enjoy the fight without the fee a loot based fight would bring?
@@soulstealer5625 Agree. I hear (hope?) that GGG redesigns the game up so that the only times you will die is if [somehow] you "let" yourself get surrounded OR you are not able to get out of the way of a powerful attack that is BOTH highly telegraphed AND has a slow windup so you'll have plenty of time to recognize and get out of the way.
@@erutherford I member sirius before he was a fragment boss. Oh here you are after 28 maps or so to fight him. Oh you died six times cause hes confusing and poorly designed? See you later in another 28+ maps by which time u probably forgetten how how operates.
That's more the way i approached poe1 anyways. Great that poe2 now enforces this.
I mostly played softcore but used builds that are hc viable. Playing a glass cannon and dying to random stuff just isn't fun. The only thing i "corpse rushed" where some bosses that where part of challenges but i couldn't do deathless. Either becaue my build wasn't a bosser or i sucked at the boss mechanics. 😅
I agree, maps should be taken more serious, not just a rite of passage
You do need a good build in softcore, it's just that your definition of what is a good build is very different because you're a regular HC player. I can tell you, as a scrub that without a good build I get absolutely fucked against any endgame boss. I would not be surprised if they give us more than one chance at pinacle bosses during early access. We'll have to see how the difficulty works and how points in each "league" tree makes those bosses harder.
I'm excited how all this goes because i have skill issues. I want to see how far can i go.
Great points Lily.
Personally I do not play HC, but I almost always play like I was. I prefer to never die, and are quite aware of any weaknesses my build has.
Normally I manage to get to like lvl 95 with zero or maybe 2-3 deaths, and I think for me this way of dealing with player mortality is great.
Also, no more Cast on Death builds, even if it was severely nerfed a few leagues back, I always thought it was so stupid.
The worst thing about POE1 was how spikey damage was. POE2 being balanced around being able to complete content deathless gives me confidence that damage will be more manageable. Agree 100% about bossing, no keys we just sell away is going to make bossing profitable to do again.
not in ea rhough, probably)
The current state of the Atlas design will definitively cut down most glass-cannon build approaches to gameplay. Your defenses will have to be attended to very seriously or else. On the upside, as far as I understand it, if you completely brick-wall yourself by repeat dying, you will be able to randomly generate a new Atlas map to restart your exploration. Personally, I love this concept.
Or go glass cannon and dont juice the maps which could also be fun
The issue is they are trying for a dark souls type of boss fight and in that game you get multiple attempts and its only a short distance to get back to them. You need repetition to get experience in the fight and learn it. If i fight a boss and he kills me, it might be hours before I find him again on the atlas. They should give you the 6 attempts, but the boss should completely reset when a portal is used. So its 6 attempts (per atlas node), but you have to still kill them in a single attempt.
yup. You can also go spend an hour at an xp grind spot and crank out 20 levels, then spend that in vitality to get 20-50% more hp, then take 30 minutes to get some weapon upgrade items and max out your weapon and then try again. In poe, if your build is shit, you may need hundreds of hours to significantly improve it.
Greatest take in this comment section for sure!
@@Alex.Holland Not exactly since respec is now done with money instead of regrets, so it may be cheap to respec some points to try new things.
@@j.lucasdecastroaraujo761 Easier but maybe not cheaper. It'll cost you tons of gold if your are respeccing late in the game. Just something to keep in mind;)
" If i fight a boss and he kills me, it might be hours before I find him again on the atlas" Shaper/Elder influence on the Atlas PTSD starts kicking in... what a nightmare of a mechanic that was, even worse if the league had way too little map drops.
I'm not sure if this approach will sit as well as some people think. I think the better approach for bosses is the more Dark souls-like approach which is have as many attempts as you want. But if you die the boss goes back to full health. That way there's no continuously fighting the boss six times and chiseling away at their health. You have to actually learn the mechanics in order to beat the fight. I think GGG Is trying to head in this direction for difficulty. I think they are taking a lot of notes from from soft's book which is incredible. I wish more people would. But this will be more of a trial thing and we'll see how the community really feels about it. Once everybody gets to play it. Maybe it'll be awesome and it'll be something that everybody likes. Maybe most people will be like. Ah, this could be better.
Boss going back to full health would be a much better system, I think. I would be surprised if the current system - being locked out of the map - will stay after early access.
What makes Dark Souls and co so great for me is the fact that it's okay to fail. What would you do with this? Instead of closing a map when you die, you could simply delete all the loot. This would make it possible to really learn a boss without devaluing the loot.
I said the exact same in my comment. We'll see how the community feels about it. But I have a feeling that they'll have to make some changes. Especially to bosses because if they want to go the Dark Souls route which is kind of what they're doing. You really should give people infinite tries at the boss, but you have to actually learn the fight and the mechanics in order to beat it. Instead of like in poe1 where you can just chisel the boss's health away six times and you either lose or you finally beat them just by chipping away at their health. I mean, how am I supposed to learn the mechanics to a fight if I only get one shot at it every so often?
@@JayBigDadyCy they are not going Dark Souls route in fights, you can think that because of the footage we've seen that was either made to be slower (for new people to the game) or was slower due to content creators experimenting and wanting to show off stuff as well as go through as much as they can as fast as they can, but Dark souls combat is slow paced 1 hit at a time. Poe 2 is not slow paced 1 hit at a time, you're doing multiple hits and you can very well do multiple BIG hits to a boss depending on your build and skills.
Like watch Subtractem video where he shows off Merc and Sorc. He dropped +2 to cold skills and 47% inc cold dmg staff, and he absolutely obliterated early game bosses. What does it mean? That you can absolutely obliterate end game bosses with a good build just like in Poe 1 without problems
@@trixon2118 If PoE 2 is anything like PoE 1 there is worlds of difference between campaign and pinnacle bosses. Besides, you can die repeatedly to campaign bosses. We just haven't seen any late game bosses yet to gauge how successful fights against them will be.
as a SC player that can't stomach HC but has interest in it, I'm really excited for this as a middle ground
The number of portals doesn't have anything to do with the profitability of bossing, at least not more than any other difficulty lever. The profit you can get from spam killing a boss is mostly defined by the difficulty of the boss and the usefulness of its drops, reducing the number of portals just increases the difficulty.
The "gambling" issue is gonna stay there, it's always gonna stay there, because the alternative is a small consistent profit every time which gets boring extremely fast.
There's a reason nobody runs memories despite them pretty much always being profitable: you get nearly the exact same profit every time, and each run plays out pretty much the same.
That said, going down to 1 portal is great because it makes it impossible to go -60% exp because of the sunk cost fallacy. Other than that this changes nothing about the game
"The number of portals doesn't have anything to do with the profitability of bossing" -> "not more than any other difficulty lever" -> "The profit you can get...is mostly defined by the difficulty of the boss" ... bro are you ok? did you have a stroke? Seek a doctor
I personally think its just gonna be gamba with the boss drops ..since you will lose all portals if you die players will just sell the boss portal to some optimised bosser build...I dont think NEW poe players will have a good time with this...its just my opinion..only time will tell..hope poe 2 will be awesome..
in theory it sounds cool, in practice it could be pretty unfun with enough unbalanced monsters/mechanics at launch until they sort that out
yep, it could be very frustrating if we end up with stuff like kalandra level of rares where you would rip 6 portals to a single mob because it rolled a bad set of mods which make it stronger than a pinnacle boss
@@dfsg21 PoE was balanced around that kind of junk though. If they have any idea of what they're doing/actually playtest, they will sort that out.
then dont be bad
@@Paultimate7 true
just get good
it feels like poe is going through the doom -> doom eternal phase, where the power fantasy has to be earned, and it isnt just handled to you
Idk what you mean by bosses are guaranteed in softcore, I use up my 6 portals and lose my boss all the time x_X
I also didn’t understand.
I was thinking “what is she on about? This is not D2, you can’t do the bosses infinitely many times”.
@@EmmaDaRose I was also confused about that statement haha.
They really are, maybe Uber bosses aren't but the regular versions of them, pretty much are free. Maven, Sirus, Shaper, Elder, Searing, EoW
PoE is balanced around 6 portals. PoE2 won't be. I expect a similar level of difficulty, just not based on 6 portals this time.
@@InfinitesimaLacuna i kinda get what you’re saying. Yes you can die to Sirus die beam, come back hit him more, die again, repeat, die to the maze, repeat and still kill him.
But seriously, 6 tries is not the same as “infinite” tries.
Awful take. I didn’t sign up to play ruthless. Maybe don’t condition your player base to 6 portals and then all of a sudden drop down to 1. Sticking with poe1 till they fix this in poe2
I love POE but since i am just a casual i do die a lot in end game usually once i hit tier 7-8 maps . So for me i guess i gotta be more cautious.
You gonna adapt and build more defenses, you will be fine
They will backtrack on this system 100%.
@@kuroh0241I don’t think they will fully backtrack, but will instead make it possible to mitigate somehow. So like you can maybe get another try, but doing so requires some rare resource that you gotta get elsewhere
@@kuroh0241 I hope they dont I like it
Carrying services go brrrrr
Amen. PoE is such a MASSIVE time sink, that just makes the idea of Hardcore insane to me. But I hate having next to no consequences for dying in softcore. PoE 2's method sounds amazing.
I'm stoked on this. I want a more slow and methodcal and difficult game. Can't wait
I do not think this is a good thing for the vast majority of the player base, since almost everyone is scared to do hard content, that's exactly the reason "services" for said content is the best seller on discords, but we will need to see for ourselves how it is going to be
good they can play d4
I think I will never do a boss unless I have a strong enough character to never die to the mechanics.
I was never a fan of the bosses in Poe. (Or any ARPG for the matter).
Maybe with WASD controls, I’ll be able to navigate the storm of crap on the green trying to kill me.
I doubt that will be [much of?] an option with PoE2. Fortunately I suspect attacks will be telegraphed more so you won't necessarily have to "memorize" the fight(s).
Ah I finally found a same-minded player ! I also don't play ARPG's for the bossfights, that's why I have been very demotivated and anti-hyped for PoE 2. The recent reveal finally did hype my up a bit, but I'll be the guy that does all the non-boss maps and probably avoid most bosses.
@ yeah. I also feel like I’m in the minority for not liking bosses.
I managed to do most non uber bosses in poe, but always many seasons later when they weren’t new anymore.
The latest bosses were ok, I guess. But I can’t see how people think a “Simon says” game in the middle of boss fight in an ARPG is fun.
Agreed! But it will be harder to spam bosses and really learn the fight
Hardcore is going to be so fun, can't wait to give my soul to PoE 2
This has a pretty decent chance to backfire hard aswell, unless they fix alot of the oneshots and poor visual clarity that PoE 1 has. It wont really affect me that much since I got 2,4k hours in Poe 1 so i will be more used to how to play an arpg but imagine Joe Dude who has never played an arpg once in his life tries PoE 2 has fun and then finally gets to the endgame, he steps into a map dies instantly and has no idea why and now he is nolonger able to go into the map, and i that is the case I think a large portion of new players will just leave the game at that and never return, Insted I think the early maps should allow 6 attempts and as you move up in tiers and difficulty you go to 4 then 2 then 1 Since tier 1 should be for ppl learning the game.
(sorry if i formulated this poorly english is not my native language)
Lol
You're acting like the developer didn't play PoE1...
They did. They know all the issues.
@@harborwolf22 I hope so :D
BIG TRUE, people are gonna ha ve a field day with this dying thing now. I do belive its healthier for the game that you can now "lose" and not just "oh I lost money doing this"
This is huge. I remember hitting a wall back when I was new at around 200-300 hours into the game, because I kept making characters and forcing them through the campaign even I though I kept dying to bosses. This is because none of my characters had any defense- I would always pick damage nodes- and the game DOES NORTHING to teach players about the ele resist penalty you get after killing Kitava.
So I would spend all this time, for me it was like 1 week to get a character to maps at the time, and then get to maps, and struggle through t1-5 until i scrapped the build because i thought it wasn't good unless i had 1000000 exalts, top currency at the time.
So i think not being able to brute force a boss is definately a 10000% bonus.
Where exactly are these 6-portal builds? It seems like we're living 7-8 years ago. People still refer to mathil builds as 3k life builds but that's just not a thing. This change will kill build diversity even more than it has been and will suck out the joy of playing jank. This will not survive until launch. The thing described in the video just doss not exist.
So people are already scared to even attempt bosses with 6 ports now we make it so people now only have 1 attempt or get fucked.
I have a bunch of friends that will not attempt bosses unless someone is on that is able to come save it and they generally use 3-4 portals then call someone in. Now I don't think any of them will ever do a boss again.
skill issues
@@obscurside3652 for sure that is why most people never bother to even attempt to learn even know they have 6 portals currently. They will be even less likely to attempt to learn with 1.
Can't gain skill without practice.
@@voodoo1069 im talking about you and your friends, no one else
what is sad is in poe1 people just don't want to miss out on possible jackpot, its all about the Divs and not the experience.... that "scared" you talking about is just FOMO, which in a videogame is kinda lame
@@obscurside3652I mean, you can say skill issue all you want but the outcome is still the same. The game will lose players if this isn't executed right.
Grouping is a hell of a lot stronger now, 6 man party all go in, if someone dies the others than bring out his loot.
Good point, but there are issues too, for instance atlases are independent. So after grinding with friends, you go to your ho and you have nothing explored there.
Group play getting unfair advantages while solo player get gatekept harder. Seems like poe 1 philosophy holding true.
Thats a very "I play 10 hours a day" take. Imagine elden ring if you, after dying to a boss, needs to go back to the start of the game before going back to that boss and try again. That seems a miserable time.
I do not play 10 hours a day. I enjoy PoE for the challenge aspect - I havent been playing all that long, still learning, still kinda bad. I will 100% get largely bored of PoE when I have "done everything" in softcore. Personally greatly look forward to the change in gameplay philosophy in PoE2. There are plenty of sandbox games out there - an endless supply in fact. I enjoy a bit of challenge - all of the games I prefer to play contain some degree of challenge.
@@jonsimon2095 Why does it seem like I never played Elden Ring? I did. Finish both the main game, NG+ and the DLC.
@@joelphinthedolphin7945 not you, the other dude. Even though aftet reading his comment again I realize I misundertood it.
> "needs to go back to the start of the game before going back to that boss"
You don't go back to the start of the game, that what hardcore would be. You just lose a run and need to do some work to get back to it. A ton of games work like this, a ton of games pull off much harsher punishment and are definitely not miserable time, stop being dramatic
Exactly, if they want thsi to be Path of Dark Souls they will need to give the player the tools to deal with failure. Failing a boss you won't see again for days is not that.
as someone who played all souls games before trying poe 1 i was turned off when i found out dying to bosses meant nothing. back then i thought poe is like souls you get stronger, beat bosses and beat the game after acts.
Very good point about dying in 1 not really being a failure
Sounds good. I'm sure a lot of people will hate it, but I know I use the 6 deaths as a crutch that prevents me from improving/learning.
you do relized that people play softcore can be either they don't have enough time to practice hardcore or simply don't have a stable enough internet connection to consistently survive ?
and what problem are you talking about ? there is already a solution for said problem in poe 1 and it's called "HARDCORD MODE", if you want a mediumcore mode then make one, don't shove it down the throat of people who enjoyed traditional softcore mode
One thing I don't like is how you cannot force a boss fight, you need to find it on the altas map, it is just random with zero control on the player side. This is delve all over again and honesty I hate it.
Something I haven't seen any discussion on is trading. I am frequently porting out to make a trade in PoE1, now that can't happen. I wonder how they plan on addressing this, a more "complete" Faustus that has items too? Otherwise trading is going to be even worse than it is now. I dunno? Probably OD'd on turkey at this point!
you can portal out without it closing
I only play solo-self found. My builds are dependent on the gear I can find or craft. Sometimes fortune smiles on me, usually it does not. I think this system is going to feel a bit more punishing. I don't mind working for it as long as the game gives me a fair chance to succeed.
I still don't get what happens exactly on the map. Does it keeps expanding and we keep going in a direction like delve? Is there a way to reset it in case you somehow box yourself in? What makes it scale in difficulty, just the glyphs we're slotting or the 'depth' of the distance we've traveled?
I don't think this feature is going to remain in poe2 for long... the softcore version anyway. Otherwise casual players will probably not stick around for long.
I'm pretty much 100% sure we'll get back 6 portals for end game bosses but start with 100% boss health if we die;)
i think this should not get implemented without any contermesure to not brick your progression ( for example dc a few times and then the whole area is unaccessable)
They discussed this during a recent interview. If you brick your atlas you will be able to reroll the atlas progression in some way.
What happen if I not complete the map, I will just log out from the game.
Is the map is marked as failed and I can't enter it anymore?
no clue
You can still used portals to stash your loot, so I assume a logout is the same thing.
At least they give the player change to access that map again but with a trade
hopefully I can build tanky enough not to die during the 3000 ping lag spikes
Only 3000? Playing in Papua New Guinea, if my build can't tank a 10sec lag spike it's useless. Not looking forward to the 1 attempt Pinacle boss fights as majority of my deaths are due to DC's
Since boss hp is already comming back to 100% and you HAVE to kill them from 100 to 0, having only 1 portal to a map in an EA is a HUUUGE mistake.
There's no way the game is ballanced enough in order for this change not be frustrating and make the new players rage quit, plus learning boss mechanics in one take is definitelly not the way to go, and also since you can't risk dieing and losing everything the mobs dropped, you'll HAVE to be constantly picking the loot as you progress further in the map, so it tends to make delirium and breach boring with all the backtracking.
One more thing, MELEE!!! this system tends to keep PoE2 as PoE1, where people avoid melee at all cost (even having 6 portals), imagine having just 1?
Idk... i need more thoughts on it...
No, the reason You can do 100 uber bosses and still lose money is challanges, and TFT has a big part in it, there are people on TFT who can do challenge carry service all day, they buy the invitation, take the loot and 3-5 people with them and make them pay for getting a challenge done, that covers the cost of entry and more, so they never can lose money if they get a bad drop, unless they fail a boss. This brings up the price of entry because these people don't care how much the entry is, as other players pay for them basically, and brings down the price of the good loot so even if You get it after 20-30 entries You still lose money. This makes doing aspirational uber endgame content almost impossible to be profitable, unless You are very lucky, or You bring other people with You and make them pay You for challenge. People were still doing that on global/trade chat before TFT existed but TFT made it much, much, much more common and most of people who do it all day for a month are doing it to RMT the currency later
The only way to solve this in PoE1 is to stop making Pinnacle Boss challenges, which is not ideal because they are supposed to be challenge. Or a better solution which I think would actually solve the issue, make the challenge count only for the host.
I think the idea here is to encourage players to balance their damage vs survivability. That's why I always liked some sort of penalty for dying in softcore. It forced me to invest in at least one type of defense. In something like D4, glass cannons are way better than tanky builds, so everybody just prioritizes dps.
I agree but in games like PoE1 it could go too far the other way. I've had characters with half a million armour, 90% all ele res, 75+% chaos res ; recover full life in about 4 seconds ... all get shredded randomly at times. Fortunately [hopefully?] I understand that the design goal is to at least make it FEEL LIKE if you die it was almost certainly your fault so some of the "BS" in PoE1 shouldn't happen any more.
@erutherford Oh yeah, for sure. I agree with everything you said. Hopefully PoE2 can improve in that department. On a side note, I for one like that they are slowing down the zoom zoom gameplay. Not necessarily a fan of souls-like or No rest for the wicked gameplay, but PoE1 gameplay was becoming ridiculous. Watching any of the Mathil builds these days is like watching a giant blur.
Pls do not say Money if you mean ingame ressources. People starting to get confused more and more :).
I don't think getting one attempt at a boss every few hours is a fun way to learn a fight. I'd rather have them disable loot, but give us more portals so we actually get to learn and practice fights. That was one of my only complaints with PoE1 actually, that the entry-cost was so high for a lot of bosses that learning was too resource and time-consuming - especially for newer players. I mean, imagine a Dark Souls boss where you get 1 try and then you have to work your way through hours of regular enemies before you get to try it again. I don't know. I don't think that's going to be fun, unless the boss mechanics are really intuitive and telegraphed.
I play SC cause I know i dont have the skill or patience for HC. Getting dicked over by server issues is also an issue. Medium core isnt too bad as I'm also a player who hates corpse rushing something and will take a character death hard even if its not a big deal compared to HC. I'm hard on myself if ive died 5 times for act 10 Kitava, I've seen SC andies corpse rush Kitava and finish in like 100 deaths.
I'm not understanding but it sounds like if you die to a "waystone" map, you'll lose access to it permanently? Or just for the found waystone, can you try again with another? Cause in my head what if I have a crappy build and I "lose" all the maps? Am I then permanently effed?
the atlas is infinite, you cannot lose all the maps, and if u fail the first 4 you can reset it
@@dslily ok good I was scared for a bit lol
starting in hardcore and then continuing to softcore when you die sounds like a good idea, but you lose your stash when you swap right?
Im not sure if anyone has talked about it but with maps locking paths in failure, could you softlock yourself if you fail all available paths?
I am gripping rn but not because of PoE but because of PoE2
If we are lucky they can add back in the fun of perandus league, you can complete half the lab and then lag out and lose it all as shaders and other elements refuse to load. It will give consequences and help us rage quit more.
I think disconnects are handled differently than deaths so you might (?) be able to use a logout macro / disconnect as oppose to outright loosing a map.
Jokes on you! I use my portal in the boss room as soon as I enter.
I'm curious how they handle map performance - even simple Delve map starts stuttering after spending bunch of hours in mines...
Agreed. Actually never thought about it this way
i like it for normal maps/bosses but for big bosses i think they should allow multiple portals (but full fight reset if you die)
if you only get 1 attempt on a pinnacle boss people will feel like they have to study multiple videos before even trying the fight which i dont think is very good and if the fight resets you still have to learn the fight and be strong enough to beat it in 1 go.
I'm not going to cast a vote yet, I will wait and try myself. If the bosses are what they promised it will be fine by me, something along the lines of Dark Souls/Elden Ring were I know exactly why I died, it looks fine watching the videos but I'm not yet sure. Now if it's like PoE 1 where I have to go to wiki to find out that X boss has elemental penetration or somehing else that completely invalidade the defenses I built without having a chance to learn the fight it will suck, a lot.
I honestly think it won't survive the EA, we will know soon enough.
The economy will adapt to this. I wonder what creative people come up with.
Look, if you had one shot or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?
im very confused so how does this work for like the campaign? does this mean when you lose to a act boss or die in a certain area of the game ur character is just bricked? lol
I like this mechanic it makes the game soft hardcore
Sorry, I dont agree with your take on this mechanic in softcore... this isnt a "people should just get used to it thing." There are hundres of new bosses and the map bosses have different AI mechanics from the campaign bosses. The is an L take in my opinion. You should have multiple attempts on maps and bosses, refill the bosses health to full when you die.. thats fine, but giving only 1 attempt for a map and its bosses is a big L. This is my only concern with POE2, I enjoy everything else. I really hope they adjust this so everyone doesnt have to just "deal with it" from HC players points of view.
i think you should get as many tries as you want but it should make u get 0 loot if u die
@@dslily 😭😭😭 No please no. Why do you hate us non HC players 😭😭😭
That actually solves a major issue I had with most ARPGs (and I feel I'm not alone in that), is that softcore almost has ZERO consequences for dying and hardcore has severe consequences, it's actually one of the reasons I drop most ARPGs after a little while, softcore becomes so boring and thoughtless very quickly after you try out few builds and see what the game has to offer, and hardcore becomes too intense and too risky because you could lose your character due to bad luck or RNG (or in case of online RPGs due to connection issues which is even worse).
So I think it's freaking brilliant that they are creating a very nice middle ground between softcore and hardcore that makes you feel the intensity of HC while also not completely destroying your enjoyment like when you die a luck based death in HC, my hope is that they stand their ground and don't change things when predictably some people would start crying about it.
this would be acceptable if literally anything about the game mechanics was explained in depth. and it didn't take 4-5 third party tools to play. and the devs didn't playtest anything.
need I go on?
@@johnturtle6649 No, because you aren't making any sense.
garbage person
@@AscendantStoic I am making absolute sense and the only reason you don't think so is personal bias.
@@johnturtle6649 No, you are full of shit, the game isn't out yet and we actually know very little about what it feels like to play the endgame, so stop making shit up because it's really embarrassing.
i'm really happy there's no life nodes on the tree, the game is balanced around that and you can invest into more interesting defence mechanics than just clicking a small life node + notable along the way. literally less choice = more choice
Cast on Death Discharge... it's not even joever... it never even happened...
it was joever before it jstarted
I'm 100% sure they will come back from this, sooner than later. It's all nice and shiny on paper, but if you just look at player retention and not scaring away the D4 people that they won over, those won't stay if they lose one every other map. Losing stuff is just not fun, losing a map is not fun, playing the devil's advocate here, people won't stay if they keep losing their maps. It's not like in Dark Souls, where dying is expected. I'm neutral on this, I'm fine with either way probably, but I'm sure if they keep this the success of the game will suffer in the long term.
I do worry especially about build diversity though, this approach removes a great ton of experimentation out and the best type of defense will determine what builds people will play, it will happen, and that's probably the biggest reason why theyy will at least change this system before the official release. Imagine releasing a game and already all the players that know what they're doing will play the same type of build, that's a nightmare scenario.
"Dying is optimal" wtf are you even talking about? No one likes dying or wants to die 6 times in a row that shits miserable. Reduce the portals to 3 but give a 25% quant/rarity penalty each time you die and make that clearly visible to the player. Let people realize, "damn i gotta beat this boss in one try to get full potential rewards, and if i fail completely i gotta come back to this later","Ok im gonna try my best these last 2 portals to see where my build is lacking, or learn the fight a bit more and NEXT time im gonna dunk on this guy". Force people to struggle, but allow them to learn. So when they come back and overcome that obstacle they get that hit of dopamine, sense of accomplishment and mastery of the game, plus better loot.
I am looking forward to the first mirror drop & dying before loot cry posts 😂
the idea of 1hp delve builds is why i hate the idea of 1hp delve builds. This isnt some roguelike. We werent meant to go that deep bud
play hardcore and everything will feel different...
One problem here is that many casual players (That GGG are aiming to keep around this time) do not trade a lot and trivialize SC content with glass cannon builds in POE. Lots of people play SC and hardly trade, giving them 6 portals and still probably not a great chance to win. They aren't going in and infinitely trying again with no challenge to eventually kill boss. They are failing 6 times and quitting. Failing once and quitting wont be better. So the system to find a new way to try again will have to be really well done to keep those players or the same problem is there.
the casual players have the campaign to have fun and standard mode for them.
skill issue
Id say its an improvement if it only applied to endgame bosses. Regular maps and other basic content it just gatekeeps.
Glass cannon play style is just as respectable as afk simulacram farmer.
The tankier you are the less you have to even pay attention in normal content.
This isnt a change at all for hardcore players or people that enjoy tanky play style.
But it completely screws anyone that enjoys the challenge of playing a low defense character.
I get mad if I die once with 6 portals... But, If I only get 1 life, Id be an idiot to even try to play that challenge.
Meaning either the game has to be piss easy, or build diversity just got cut massively.
TFare you on about, “losing”. You’re viewing the game from the eyes of someone with 1000s of hours. Or just completely forgot what it’s like to play as a person with a job.
Dude, for the vast majority of the games existence it was extremely easy to brick your atlas.
Get off your high horse pls
The single death thing wont survive. Once GGG sees their play base dwindle after the first month they will abandon that bad idea. I not a god gamer like you ds lily. I NEED multiple attempts at difficult content or i will just put it down and come back much much later. POE 1 is perfect when it comes to that. They don’t have to change everything, and they shouldn’t.
you said it, poe 1 if perfect like that , adapt, or go back
I'm really looking forward to this change. I hate the gameplay pattern of just mindlessly portaling back into a boss room to do as much dps as possible, ignoring the mechanics. Imo its bad design. This should make every boss encounter alot more intense and as they said, they can make them alot more rewarding aswell. Can't wait to try it out
6 portal gang is no more.
Good Vid in that it provokes a conversation. I must admit I don't totally agree. I see the point that is made, but for me it totally depends on how GGG treated 'sales' of Boss invitations. If they are 'easiely' sellable via a discord server, that is absoluetly a step in the wrong direction in my humble opinion. IF it leads to more people actually trying the boss fights because they can't sell the invites I think I would actually agree with the point made in the video, for now I am simply afraid that this design might push the TFT discord once again.
yo guys, clickbait videos are bad.
makes clickbait videos.
my kinda humor
I do have lag spikes, this is going to be a nightmare....
I’m interested to see how this plays out. A large portion of ARPG players including PoE players are drawn to the power fantasy of it all, zooming around and deleting screens and collecting loot. Turning it into a Soulslike is a fundamentally different game experience. I love Souls games and understand the appeal of overcoming difficulty, but again, these are different games than ARPGs like PoE. The pursuit of loot and character building and incremental progress is the heart of ARPGs, not some arbitrary difficulty pass/fail.
If you die in a map you die in real life
i like one try on maps! :) less glass cannon builds. and it also will encourage multiplayer. but onely one try on a pinnacle bosses seems bad when still learning the mechanics...
To those who are not onboard with this - the atlas is INFINITE. Brick a map, wipe your tears, and run another map… find the boss again… play the game. I’ll be so disappointed if GGG goes back on this if people cry about it too much before they get used to it.
Exactly. Infinite Atlas just means your next map needs to be less dangerous
That isn't what a sandbox game means.
Bosses wont even be rewarding
Best loot is always on trade, trading with an ever inflating currency, bad design
From 6 portal defence to atlas reset defence
DSlily "pog" face does things to me
Yea spot on. Always hated 6 portals, especially because of how it fucks with the way you view defensive investment in SC.
Bricking maps after one death will be one of the major complaints and will be one of the first things they change
Definitely won't change. Whole design based off it.
@ they would never add gold into the game either… they will change whatever isn’t working
Its so true @@sethjones6711
@@sethjones6711it literally took them 11 years to introduce gold into the game.
@@JayBills3 no one was complaining about not having gold. Using that as an example that they will change anything. Loosing a map due to one death, most likely due to a single modifier, will make the game objectively worse for most people and it will be a major complaint.