Philip, I am so impressed with how you discussed this topic. Thank you for offering such a sensitive, nuanced perspective with a gentle plea to fantasy readers. It looks like this was posted just a month before you first came on my radar, but I'm so grateful you addressed this. I also love the title "The Oliphant in the Room"! This could be another paper, by the way. You could probably just hire someone to dictate your RUclips videos and create a collection of essays. In suggesting that, I hope you realize I'm still encouraging to make brilliant videos! They are so meaningful and inspiring to me.
Thank you, Johanna! This was the hardest video to make in some ways, and in other ways I felt it was too important not to make. I know I've left out a lot of things when it comes to representation in fantasy, but I hope it's a conversation starter or a means of helping people to think about these issues in a respectful way. Thanks for the positive feedback, which means a ton to me!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I can understand what you mean about the need to expand and add more regarding representation in fantasy, but this was an excellent start. I haven't read through all the comments, but I wanted to add a positive voice here. I truly am impressed with what you started and the courage you had to admit ways your views (which are common misconceptions) have been challenged and changed. I also would like to think the same about Tolkien if he had lived long enough. This is an ever-evolving topic in that there is always so much to understand and learn, and I think that can be kind of frightening as it is sensitive. Thank you for making this in the first place, and your willingness to touch upon these things in our discussion!
I'm reading Malazan now (just finished Bonehunters last night), and one of my favorite things about it is the diversity of the cast. Many of my favorite characters are Dal Honese, described as having onyx colored skin. I feel like Erikson does a great job of painting a more or less egalitarian world where the color of someone's skin or their gender are the least important facts about them. We, in America, are by no means 'color-blind', but it is nice to see a world where that dream is realized!
I think there was not a sexist or racist bone in Tolkien’s body. Fantasy is a genre often inspired by historical settings and, for me, it is primarily meant to be escapist and immersive. Therefore, I think it makes sense that races are less mixed in a fantastic setting than in a modern setting, in which we have all kinds of reasons and means to travel. This simply wouldn’t be the case in an older setting and credibility is vital for the sake of immersion. Also, as a reader, you are expected to have a fair amount of imagination. As a white woman I have enjoyed fiction with all black male characters, with a male 12-year-old protagonist, even with a focus on elderly characters and in settings that I have no knowledge of or affinity with. I don’t mind at all, as long as the story is compelling. Also, I love writing the adventures of a male protagonist with my husband. I feel like this society encourages people to feel victimized all the time. I read because I want to discover new worlds and new points of view, not to see the exact representation of myself in a story. If so, why bother reading? Art is the most individual expression of the most individual emotion. To bind it by rules is to destroy the artform in my opinion. And I think series like Rings of Power only prove that point. Belittling your audience with messages and lessons also means claiming a moral high ground. Some consider literature that does not aspire to educate unsocial. That is completely unjustified in my opinion. I think authors are perfectly inclined to restrict their mission to entertaining.
Wow this was such a great talk. Thank you for opening up the conversation in such a thoughtful manner. A couple of years ago, I started reading The Fifth Season without knowing any background about the story or author. I got the shock of my life when I realised that the characters were POC. I had conjured up at the beginning of the book an image of these characters and they were all white, and I also assumed the author was a white male. Even for someone like me who is a Person Of Colour, the effects of the history of systemic racism in the arts and literature has conditioned me to visualise from an assumption of 'white'. So books that portray diverse characters as the majority or the protagonists are so important. Because I don't want my daughters growing up like me, unconsciously believing that they could only ever be represented as a token or a bit part in any story. Thank you for the dialogue!
Sun and Mood Reads That’s a powerful story. I love The Fifth Season - first because it’s an awesome beginning to an amazing trilogy, and second because of all the things you mention. When I had recently started my channel, I did a review of The Broken Earth Trilogy with my older daughter, who identifies as a woman of color (my wife is South Asian). I introduced her to the trilogy, and it was so important to her for all the reasons you mentioned. One of the wonderful things about fantasy today is how diverse it’s becoming, which is really enriching the genre. Thanks so much for watching and for sharing your story. I’d love to watch you review The Broken Earth Trilogy!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh that's interesting! I'll have to check out you and daughter's review of Broken Earth. It is encouraging to know that diversity in fantasy is progressing! Hmm, I might work up the courage and review it myself! #babysteps🤔🤣 Thx
Such an important topic, and you handled it with great tact. I have at times been annoyed by the majority of fantasy heroes being white and often blue-eyed. It just struck me as unimaginative. That is not to say the books themselves are bad, just a tad unrealistic. To give an example, my grandfather was native American and yet I look almost nothing like him. It goes to show that we can never judge a person based on their skin or looks. I've always been quite baffled by any notion that all white people have had only white ancestors. This is also a massively inaccurate idea.
Alex85 Thank you! I tried my best since, as you say, the topic is so important. I completely agree with you about the falsity of the very notion of “racial purity”. It would be wonderful if we all recognized fellow human beings before we saw or even thought about race, but it’s a social construct that has great power over people’s perceptions. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
Which ones? As my name suggests I would love to read a blue eyed hero, I read 16 fantasy books last year, none of these contained a blue eyed hero. Kip from (lightbringer) might qualify, but he is persian looking. Now I feel bad about liking him because now I know I should've cared about the color of his skin, as the new age fantasy fandom is suggesting...
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy you all should go into the history for a explanation. In humans history, peoold trusted the family, the ones that looked familiar, the clans, the people with the same culture, tue same Religion, it was unlikly that a trible of your own Kind atacks you, someone dou share the language and do on. But people that look different, talk another language, habe other believes, where a thrat. Viking vs franch. A facinating fact is, there are sientific proof of this: if you are only seeing your kin and then you see people of another race you are unable do differ between intivituals, they all look the same, it is a lerning proces for the brain, do see indivituals of another race, so there is a big history behind misdrusting other people, it was a nesesaty in our Evolution, something do unlern. That is importent do recognise. It is a complex topic, not just you are rasist, often there is a fear behind it, is it justified. I do not know every Story, of every Person. If a Juwe hates germans. If a roma hates for example Polen. A tiwanees japoanease. What do i know about the history? Rasism is bad, if someone has a Trauma, they need help, antagonising them helps noone. I hope i get the point acrosd
Agreed. And what's interesting about the "majority of fantasy heroes' appearance is - it's mainstream fantasy heroes. Fantasy itself has been spoken and written about all over the world with the descriptions/cultures of those characters being representative of their countries of origin. They simply didn't receive mainstream (European/American) exposure/acceptance.
The fact that Tolkien drew on the common European idea of a Central-Asian-looking enemy can be explained as a combination of the WWI meme "Germans are the new Huns" and the descriptions of Huns and Mongols in historical sources. The Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus described Huns in basically the same terms as in the quote you read. Tolkien must have been familiar with such texts. Was it malicious intent? No. It was a deeply ingrained cultural meme, and hardly anyone at the time were wise enough to question it.
You are completely correct, I think. Another source for orcs is William Morris’ description of Huns in The Roots of the Mountains. Tolkien was a fan of Morris’ fantasies from the 1890s.
So basically what we are doing is drawing a comparison to a people we view in a negative light, for example the Germans, and saying their behaviour is similar to an Asian people. And that's considered the worse insult. Hmm it's still very problematic. The Mongols or Huns didn't do anything different than say Julius Caesar or Alexander The Great. Is there a different between the Huns crossing the Danube and the Hebrews crossing the river Jordan. Most whites just accept there is a huge difference and this I am sad to say is white privilege.
I love Tolkien too (both The Hobbit and LOTR). I didn't take offense to the lack of female characters in his works, but I can understand why other women might. (Part of my perspective on this is because I recognize some of the foundation of LOTR is from Tolkien's experience in WWI, where there was a lack of female presence.) Like you, I hesitate to label anyone, and people are very complex. However, I agree with your thoughts on Tolkien's handling of racist characterizations in his works (and it is hard to hear when you admire someone so much). You handled this discussion really well.
Thank you! I completely agree with you that it’s hard to hear something less than admirable about someone you deeply admire. Tolkien is still my favorite author and likely always will be, but he was a human being - a very good one overall, I think - and as such was in part a product of his time, just like the rest of us. I deeply appreciate you taking the time to comment on this video!
Thank you for making this video with touching sensitivity and humility. I was searching for discussions on this topic and there isn't much content out there that I could find, and even less so created by men - this makes your contribution all the more important! I particularly appreciate your commentary on historical accuracy - agree there's a huge difference between a book with racist and sexist plots - albeit unintentional - and a book which seeks to portray sexism and racism within the plot. To add an example to what you explained, violence against women is largely normalised and/or used as a plot device to explain women's transformation into "badass" characters - this is essentially glorifying suffering and pretty inaccurate if you read or listen to survivors testimonies. A book portraying sexism in contrast, would leave the reader feeling strongly uncomfortable with the violence and its normalisation by historically accurate ignorant/sexist characters. Example of a sexist portrayal (imo): The Winter King by Bernard Cornwell (although I find it undoubtedly well-written, every mention of a woman is as a man's property or the subject of abuse. In this book I felt desensitised to the abuse - it was not meant to shock me but to give me that impression of "historic accuracy" people bring up, and to define a "lead" female character). Example of a realistic portrayal of sexism: The Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb (women are also considered property/inferior in this world but this is denounced. In fact it might be portrayed too realistically for it left people traumatised and/or angry at the fact that such violence was not essential to the characters' journey. Personally I think that's the whole point: there is no point to abuse, it is damaging, it does not define a person and it should be shocking.) Most importantly POC and women have existed since the beginning of humanity. Perhaps we should question why we don't often encounter them as well-developed protagonists, rather than deem this lack of portrayal as historically accurate. I personally think the answer lies less in individual writers' backgrounds than in our society's culture and perceptions of race and gender. Only through questioning and challenging our biases will new stories with more diversity get written. Thanks again for creating this space, I'm finding it enlightening to read other people's comments on this.
Thanks for your wonderful comments, which are valuable as they add some important insights to the conversation! Also, I appreciate the encouragement since this video has received some negative criticism. I’m fine with constructive criticism and respectful disagreement, but I’ve decided to block a few individuals who have used racist, sexist, and vulgar language in their comments. Anyway, I think you make an important distinction when you differentiate between books that portray misogyny without delving into its causes and consequences and books that portray it but do so in a manner that creates empathy or causes the reader to question the social structures that make such behavior acceptable in the minds of many. Also, I love Hobb’s Liveship Traders Trilogy and think it’s a perfect example of the latter. Thanks so much for watching and for your thoughts!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I hope these negative interactions never deter you! it is not just your content that is valuable but also the way in which you promote dialogue over debate. It's so exemplary in this increasingly polarised world! I sure will strive to emulate this in my own conversations :)
@@coraliemarti8506 Thank you for the kind words. You’re right about the distinction between dialogue, where we’re open to learning from each other, and debate, where we’re more interested in “winning” than in listening. I hope to engage in lots of dialogue on the channel, and I’ve already learned a lot from generous viewers like you. Thanks!
This was a really well-done video! Thanks for taking the time to do this. As a white author in the fantasy genre, as I grow older, I do my best to learn about my own privileges, and try to be more inclusive of other cultures. That's partially why I started traveling, and why I recommend doing such to other fantasy writers, because sometimes it's not enough to just do research or try and educate yourself. Really being in the environment opens your eyes so much, and I think this was a well-thought-out video here to move the conversation forward
Thank you! It’s a tough but important topic for our community to engage in. I love your advice about travel. I consider my years abroad to have been some of the most important in my life for what they taught me about other people and myself. Thanks for the positive feedback on this!
Great suggestion. Not only to immerse yourself in new cultures, but also to put yourself in the position of being a cultural outsider or racial minority.
Just wow. Indian here. Reading LOTR for the first time now. I didn't particularly get any racism from the 1st 2 books. But, while reading the Return of the King, I was raising my eyebrows a few times. I mean the East and the South are the enemies? The West are the heroes? I just think that Tolkien, like you said, was a product of his times, albeit a more moral one. I don't think he was maliciously intent on being racist; was probably just ignorant about some parts of the world. And he's allowed to be that. He didn't have the internet like we do. Anyway, this is the best video on this topic. I really do like LOTR and the world that Tolkien has created. Which is why I'm amazed with your points and nuance on this topic. You articulated everything very beautifully. Thanks Philip.
I agree with your assessment. Tolkien, I believe, was not at all maliciously racist, but all of us see the world through the lens our cultures and families give us. This comes with limitations that we can sometimes transcend with effort. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Absolutely. This brings to mind that quote, "A frog in a well doesn't know the ocean". It's the same for all of us. Unless we strive to take that leap out of our small worlds, we'd be walled in. And I do think Tolkien did that, within his capacity and context, although not perfectly.
@@moodymarauder Agreed! He definitely did. Also, as a Catholic in England in those days, he knew how it felt to be a minority, and I think that might have helped him to be empathetic.
That's a really interesting topic to discuss. If I may join... A couple of years ago I read an opinion of African Nobel Prize Laureate in literature (or just a famous African writer, I don't remember at this poin) who called "The Hearth of Darkness" a racist and harmful book. From a modern-day perspective, I have to agree. I remember how Conrad depicted black people as an undifferentiated savage mob. That doesn't change the fact that "The Heart of Darkness" was a milestone in beating racism and helped to liberate people in Congo. I wouldn't be surprised if Conrad was transported to the modern day the progressives of our times would terrify him. That doesn't make him a bad person. He was just a man of his time. The same goes for Tolkien - he was just a man of his times and for his times he was a pretty decent person. That doesn't mean that we should ignore the flaws in his writing. I also saw in several online discussions an argument that certain fantasy writer is sexist just because they included sexism in their fictional world while they could've chosen not to. I disagree with it. If we strip fantasy worlds of all the negative phenomena of our world like racism, sexism, and homophobia we end up with fairytale and utopia. The Broken Earth trilogy had it all and it was a great meditation on the problem of discrimination. The clue is to do something substantial with those problems when the writer decides to incorporate them into their world. At the same time, I really liked that in The Farseer trilogy, there was full gender equality in every profession. It was done very naturally, and I didn't notice it until 3rd book in the series.
Beautifully said, and I agree with each of your points! In its time, Heart of Darkness was radical for its critique of European colonialism. Today, parts of it are painful to read because they seem to unthinkingly perpetuate racist stereotypes. As you say, it’s most helpful to see it within the context of its time. I also agree that it’s still important to tackle themes like racism and sexism in literature, which means portraying painful things sometimes. Thank you for your input!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy if I may add something more. Because of those reasons, I'm rather against of recent trend of correcting books to be more inclusive. Obviously I have nothing against inclusivity I'm very much in favour of it. My problem with correcting authors like Ronald Dahl or Ian Fleming is that for me it's nothing more than cynical cash grab. If publisher believes that Ronal Dahl books don't fit modern times, then they might as well stop publishing him entirely and promote new, more inclusive authors. Children literature ages extremely fast and even Harry Potter has some problems from modern day perspective (outside of controversy with J. K. Rowling). And outdated fairly modern books can be great example for critical studies, to show how times have changed. I remember that in high school we were discussing during class antipolonism of Fyodor Dostoevsky (I'm from Poland). It was quite interesting to learn where it came from.
The argument that there weren't POC in medieval Europe always puts me in mind of the Cards Against Humanity card "A fantastical kingdom with elves and dragons but no black people." which perfectly captures the absurdity of the argument. Loved the video.
Well, considering medieval Europe was predominantly consisting of….Europeans, it makes complete sense that the vast majority of the population was white and not a whole lot of POC’s. Not to say you can’t do a fantasy story set in an African inspired setting - I’d love to read all about that! Evan Winter’s Burning Series apparently covers this exact kind of setting, and I’m anxiously waiting to read it. Of course not all fantasy has to be medieval European inspired, but there is not a problem with a fantasy story if it happens to be one either. And it’s especially not egregious or problematic or “absurd” for a story with these heavy medieval EUROPEAN (meaning WHITE) inspirations and undertones to feature mainly white characters. I mean, it would be essentially the same thing if white people inserted themselves in a clearly African-inspired story (such as the Burning series which I mentioned previously and the Broken Earth trilogy by N.K. Jemisin) or an Asian-inspired story (such as the Poppy War by R.F. Kuang, or the Greenbone Saga by Fonda Lee, or Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang, or the entirety of manga and anime).
@@grimdarkwrld the point you're missing is a simple one: History is a lot, and by that I mean A LOT, more diverse than what your History book tells you. Thanks to the Roman Empire you had Africans in England before the time of Christ. If it "makes sense" to you that a medieval European setting has no black or brown people in it, then the only conclusion I can draw is that you haven't studied much real history.
@@theawesome925 I’m not saying that medieval Europe had no black or brown people. I’m just saying the overwhelming majority of European history is comprised of European people (meaning white people). Just like how the majority of African history is comprised of African people, the majority of Asian history is comprised of Asian people, etc. Maybe before you criticize me and make claims that I said something which I clearly didn’t, how about you reread the comment.
This is the best analysis on the topic on RUclips. I agree, Tolkien for his time would have been considered progressive for his time, however his work is full of some ethnocentric tropes that were very widely held of his day. If you accept the philosophy of Middle earth, you accept that everything good comes out of the West. The further East you go the worse it is in terms of being susceptible to evil influences. A theme in Tolkin work is free will, it sets the humans apart from the other races, and this free will. But the humans that have freewill are the euro centric ones. Humans of the West align more to the one creator god and are wise enough to accept the Elves teaching. The humans of the East align more to Sauron and are happy to accept his tyranny, and just so happen to be races that look African, Persian, or Asian. To me this philosophy is racist, and harks back to notions of the white man's burden, granted Tolkin was not aware what he was doing when using these racist tropes.
Thanks, Jack. I think it’s important to try to understand people, including ourselves, as in part products of their time and culture. Tolkien was a genius, I think, and an empathetic person, but even he likely did not see behind some of the tropes he used that many of us today recognize as Eurocentric or even racist. As I say in the video, that doesn’t mean I personally would label Tolkien a racist. On the contrary, in the context of his time and place, he was progressive. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think I made it clear I didn't think Tolkin was a racist, but he nevertheless has racist tropes present in his work. Your reply seems to suggest I should understand the man as a product of his times and I felt I did so. In any case to remove doubt on my position. Tolkins writings are fantastic, and he was progressive for his time. Was he able to remove himself from tropes that we would consider today as problematic, unfortunately not. It's just a case of being aware they are there, and as you suggest, it gives us a window into how English men saw their place in the world at a specific time.
Some folks in the comments are criticizing stories where an attempt to include diverse characters comes off as clumsy or forced. Criticizing bad writing, or token characters is fine. Holding these bad stories up as a reason not to write inclusive stories is not. Yes, it's hard to write characters who are different from yourself, but that is what good authors do.
Beautifully said, Grutar! Tokenism is not cool, but, as you point out, let’s not pretend that all attempts at inclusivity are token. In my experience, the best authors are excellent at writing characters different from themselves - another thing you’re right about. Thanks for the insightful comment!
It could be true, but I don't care, don't care at all. If you think fantasy books are racist, then don't read them. Its not like government policies and laws are based on fantasy books.
I really enjoyed this. At first I thought I already knew everything about this but the points you made were new and fresh and made me think about current contempoary authors. I think Joe Abercrombie strikes the perfect balance of showing misogny whilst writing REALLY strong female characters such as in Age of Madness. I do find Erikson lacks in the female department and he does glorify misogny (at least in my eyes). I do think George RR Martin in some ways hits the perfect balance of strong female characters like Joe but his take on misogny can be seen as very sexist but at the time of my reading I thought it was a perfect depiction of medevial times (at least the kind I was believed to be accurate). Now I think I can understand why people, especially women, see George's potrayal of women especially Dany and those who are blantatly sexualised as sexist.
You make a great point about Abercrombie’s female characters in Age of Madness, and that’s one of the reasons I love it so much so far. The thing that can be hard to evaluate , I think, is whether something terrible that happens to a female character is misogynist or is an exploration of misogyny. A big indicator is whether the author follows up on the terrible event. Does the author give the woman’s perspective? Does the author portray the repercussions for everyone involved? My take is that Erikson does well in this regard. Some horrible things happen to some female characters in Malazan, but usually Erikson follows up on those incidents in a way that engages me in the big issues but also makes me feel for the woman. At least that’s my experience. That said, treatment of female characters is something most of us need to think and learn about, and I bet even Erikson himself would agree that he could handle certain scenes better today than twenty years ago. Thanks for your thoughts!
Do you think the depiction of the easterlings in the movie was racist? I don’t know how they were depicted in the books, so maybe you could shed some light on that for me.
Excellent question. I’ve read a couple articles that focus on the question of racism in the films and talked to a few people about it as well. Some people say the Easterlings in the film, who are not portrayed with any depth (nor are they in the books), are reminiscent of people from the Middle East, and that they appear as stereotypical baddies in contrast with the white, essentially “good” cultures. Some say the films are even worse because they were released starting in 2000 or so, whereas the books were published in the 1950s, when fewer people questioned racist and colonialist portrayals. Faramir has his “They’re just like us” moment, so you could argue that Jackson showed awareness of the impression his Easterlings might make. You’ll probably notice that Jackson might have responded to racial critiques of his LOTR films by diversifying things a little in his Hobbit films (the people of Laketown are racially diverse, and the orcs have a wider array of skin tones). Personally, I don’t think your question should be answered with a simple yes or no. It’s complex, and while I consider myself a fan of the books and the films, I’m open to hearing those criticisms of them.
That's a very interesting video and discussion! So, as you now know, I've been reading LOTR. Since I've watched the movies first, I was really happy when we got to "meet" Éowyn in Two Towers, because she was one of my favourite characters. But as I understand it, Tolkien took another direction. I don't hate the book by any means, I have issues with it and I was hoping for Return of the King to resolve them (we'll see, but I'm still keeping an open mind, I know it's been published in a different time and place). It's interesting because, to me, the orcs are not human at all (even though they have speech) they're merely instruments in the hand of Sauron (that's even how Gollum describe them if I'm not mistaken). They don't seem to have a choice, like if they were designed by an evil being to do its biddings (the way Saruman has an army of half-orcs). I have read another Fantasy series (Emerald Knights by Anne Robillard) with a similar trope: these humanoid insects are just evil killing machines working for their master. If we're in a made-up world, these things can exist without having to mirror the politics of our world. I agree that, sometimes, the author does use his work as a social critics of some sort, but unless it's quite explicit, we can be easily biased by our own preconceived ideas of how things should look like... Sometimes it's in the way something's written, but even when there's no explicit condamnation of some kind of oppression, it doesn't mean the author's intention is to depict them as moral. That's a big judgement to make. Recently, I've watched a video of a young woman talking about what turned her off in the Mistborn trilogy (which I've never read). She was talking about how the author was pretty overtly trying to shove his religion (mormonism) down your throat in the third book. Since I do know mormon beliefs, what she said made sense to me (I don't want to spoil things, but, for example, mormons believe that men will become gods on their own "planet"), but others didn't feel this way or read it this way at all (maybe partly for lack of knowledge, and partly because they didn't personalize what they were reading). Like her, I'm usually looking at the author's message when I'm reading their work, so I might have been offended as well. Every reader has a different baggage and will interpret things differently, it doesn't mean they're always right. Unless they have extended proof of what they're saying, I think they should be careful with the accusations they make. I tend, for personal reasons, to avoid Fantasy books in which characters become gods or - oh plot twist - are half-gods. It just doesn't appeal to me at all, and that's ok.
Very well said! You’re absolutely right that we all bring our own baggage and experience to every book we read. I read Mistborn and never made that connection, but I know about Mormonism only superficially. As I said in the video, I don’t like labeling people with loaded words unless an individual is clearly identifying with a hateful ideology. Tolkien was far from that. He was actually a good human being, as far as I can tell, and he clearly opposed the extreme forms of racism in his day. I suppose we are all in part products of our time and our surroundings, and we share limitations on our perceptions with those we know best. That being said, I’m doing my best to learn from people whose experiences allow them to more clearly see things that I might miss. This is a strength of diversity, I think - there’s so much we can learn from each other. Thanks for watching and commenting!
while i did not enjoy mistborn (found the characters boring) i do know BS is mormon but the only influence his religion has on the books is the lack of swearing or sex. which sucks because those things make life so much fun lol
Very admirable of you to take on this topic. Much of the fantasy of yesteryear is clearly racist in that the "baddies" had coloring and features of those who were discriminated against and/or were hated in "the real world". Dark/sallow/swarthy skin, slanted eyes, etc. There was intentionality there which brought the stereotypes of the real world into the fantasy realm, thereby perpetuating it and spreading its audience. That's the primary reason I refused to read H.P. Lovecraft - I learned he was an unrepentent racist. That said, I'd read all of Robert E. Howard's works (who has never gotten his proper recognition) before I learned of his own racist leanings which he also perpetuated to varying degrees of severity in his work. The books aren't going anywhere and maintain the racist utopias some love in pristine condition. Studios however, know something the authors didn't/don't - POC love fantasy and are just as rabid a fanbase as white readers. As a result, they have a greater feeling of responsibility to make the adaptations as representative of the viewership as is reasonably possible. The modern day racial issue in fantasy are not just with adaptations but also the reception of alternative fantasy worlds from authors of color. I routinely observe a greater level of criticality from reviewers/booktubers who appear to have those leanings. I don't believe it's necessarily intentional either but, when the best a reviewer can give is, "I don't know why I didn't like this I just didn't. I don't really understand all the fanfare this book is getting. The prose is just okay, I mean, it's not on Josiah Bancroft or Steven Erikson level" and on and on with no specifics regarding what the author actually did wrong/poorly. Growing up I read everything which overwhelmingly consisted of 99% stories about non-POCs because that's what was available. As a result, I'm fully open to reading those stories unbiased and ready to fully express my fandom, by and large that pendulum doesn't swing back the other way by a lot of readers for the works of POC.
Beautifully said, Chris! One thing that I believe with all my heart is that fantasy is so much richer and more interesting today because of its increasing diversity, meaning we are so fortunate that publishers have become more receptive than they were in the past towards authors from demographics that have been drastically underrepresented. I’m excited for the genre because of this increasing receptivity, though some of the reactions to those adaptations indicate we have a long way to go in terms of acceptance of diversity in fantasy. I deeply appreciate your insights and thoughts in your comments. Thank you!
I don't think its bold to say that most fantasy readers didn't have a ton of interactions with girls growing up, which probably leads to the one dimensional approach to women in a lot of fantasy. As far as racism, again i think a lot of fantasy readers are white suburban kids who likewise don't have a ton of exposure to other cultures. So I don't think it's malicious most of the time, just ignorance.
Nick Wurthmann I think you’re quite right. Most of the time, when people step on other people’s toes, it’s probably not from malice but from ignorance. I’ve certainly done it. I hope to learn from such experiences to become less ignorant. Like everyone else, I’m a work in progress. Thanks for the comment!
John Actually, we agree on that. As I say in the video, fantasy is a genre (not a person) that is increasingly diverse and is read by people who are no more racist or sexist than most other groups of people.
I just recently found your channel and love your enthusiasm and thoughtfulness, especially on a difficult/sensitive topic like this. I doubt you'll see this given how old the video is, but I'd love to see a follow up video about books that try to reverse or change genders roles. Mostly I'm thinking of Wheel of Time, but Stormlight Archive also has some of it. I personally can't decide if it is interesting, or off-putting (I think I lean toward the latter). I love how Robert Jordan creates a range of cultures from patriarchal to matriarchal and it's interesting to watch the POV characters navigate that, but I can't quite get over how certain characters treat others poorly based solely on their gender. I don't have much interest in reading about women who have the stereotypical traits of dominant men in Western culture, I'd rather read about a more egalitarian or gender-neutral culture.
Thank you, Aidan! I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement, especially given the sensitivity of the topic. And that’s an excellent idea to do a follow up! It would be good to give some positive and affirming examples in fantasy, of which there are many. Also, great thoughts on WoT. Thanks so much!
It's a complicated subject for sure. Has fantasy been racist? Absolutely it has. Particularly in the pulps you'll find some stuff that'll make you cringe today, even from the good pulp writers like Robert E. Howard. Even Tolkien had some racial stuff in Lord of The Rings, though I'm not sure if that was conscious on his part since he was a pretty vocal anti-racist (at least for the time) and anti-Nazi (which you bring up in the video.) I am generally uncomfortable with judging people who lived in the past, because I don't know if it's up to us to really judge them based on our changed values. But I do think these topics should be talked about, a lot of my objections when it comes to this topic is how they're being discussed. I know I'm a bit late on this, but great video. You handled the topic very well, as much as you could for such a touchy subject.
It’s definitely there, especially - but not exclusively - in older fantasy. I think acknowledging that fact is a baby step toward improving, but, as you might see in many of the comments, some people resist even that acknowledgment. A few seem to think no one should even bring up the subject.
On the topic of "historical accuracy" I would say, for me, it's less about being accurate to the time period that the setting is inspired by and more just good worldbuilding. For example, there were good reasons that Europe had very, very few black or asian people in it for the majority of its history. Travel was very difficult (among other reasons). For me, you'd need some sort of explanation for why your setting is racially diverse. Maybe a power like the Roman Empire has risen up and among its territories are multiple different ethnic groups. Maybe superior modes of transport are available in this world. If its something like The Witcher tv show, though, where there is no explanation, it kind of breaks my immersion.
Personable Person Well said, and fair enough. I agree that world building should feel convincing, and you have a point about the relative homogeneity of medieval-like societies due to their isolation and lack of technology, especially in the realm of transportation. Of course, not all fantasy needs to be medieval, and, as you say, there can be reasons for diversity in “older” societies, such as commerce and empire. Thanks for the informed comment!
You are limiting your understanding of what can constitute a fantasy world though. The reasons we might expect characters with diverse characteristics to not be around one another in certain societies is because in our world, we are bound by rules of biology and sociology. Who's to say that in the fantasy world you're watching/reading, which has a human-adjacent setting, that they are bound by these same rules? Is it not possible that their world has gods, and those gods designed inhabitants with different features from the get go (sans evolutionary drift)? Or is it not possible that they have genetic mutations at much higher rates? I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but at the same time I always wonder how that aspect is the one people find unimmersive, rather than the fact that you frequently find yourself in the body of a protagonist who is COINCIDENTALLY white and male and able, in a world where literally anything is possible.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 I think I'd have to read that in a story before I'm able to decide whether that's acceptable. It doesn't sound logical (and I like things to be logical) but I'm trying to keep an open mind. As for the immersion... What rule of logic does following the perspective of a white, able male a lot break? I mean, that's not even a problem (if it is a problem at all) with the story, it's a problem with the culture *surrounding* the story - it exists on a meta-level. It has nothing to do with the story itself.
Personable Person I get what you’re saying but theres intrinsic logic and extrinsic logic. What you’re saying is that you want the fantasy world to match your extrinsic logic of how our world may have worked in medieval times. What I’m saying is that it’s a fantasy world even if it’s based on medieval settings, so the logic of the world only has to make sense intrinsically. I know your issue is with them not explaining their intrinsic logic, but I’m just saying if we can believe this world has magic, we can believe that it has natural diversity. In terms of the white straight man thing, it’s not that it’s a problem in and of itself, it’s that contextually, when 80% of fantasy follows the same type of protagonist, it begins to hinder your immersion to the story because it feels like it isn’t organic. If entire alternative universes out there exist why are we always finding the ones where a white straight guy is the protagonist
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 Just to weigh in here a little, I think you expressed very well (probably better than I did) one point I was trying to make in the video. I do feel there's room for fantasies that take a more "historical" view of world building, though "historically inspired" is perhaps closer to the mark. However, I have heard people (especially in the past) disparage fantasy that does not conform to their notions of historicity because it contains diversity, and I think such disparagement is a mistake. As you point out, fantasy is not bound by the rules and events that influenced history (which is also very much a discipline that is revised all the time).
Great video on a difficult subject, but one that needs addressing, as you said. It is always hard to see less than stellar aspects of favourite authors. They fought or were indeed more modern than their counterparts and yet still had some prejudices. Brontë fighting for women but at the detriment of women of colour; Dorothy L. Sayers again for women, showing veterans’ PTSD before it was recognised, but showing too some unsavoury antisemitism. Agatha Christie for instance portrayed lgbt+ characters in a positive light, was decades ahead, but still fell short sometimes. John Wyndham is another you can see aspiring for more but falling short due to his culture/society. It kills me and yet they paved the way for betterment. I read LOTR in my mid 20s (3x), loved it, while still pondering about the paucity of women characters, although “I am no man!” from Éowyn will stay with me for ever😊 I love specfic because it pushes boundaries, asks difficult questions, and entertains. Come to think of it, Romance has been fighting too. Thank you for this.
Thanks so much for your insightful comments here. Those are excellent examples of authors who were very ahead of their time in some respects and products of their time in other respects. It’s important, I think, to recognize with a dose of humility that we all have worldviews that emerge in part from our cultural surroundings even as we struggle to create a better world. All the best!
I feel like the real issue isn't that Fantasy (writ-large) is a sexist/racist genre, but rather that the fantasies or fantastical elements in books that have been elevated by society are racist and sexist. And then you have a self-perpetuating cycle of new fantasy that pays homage to the old by recycling tropes that are removed from their original context of colonialism etc, to where you end up with these laundered projections of sexism and racism/orientalism and transphobia in a series as seemingly benign as Harry Potter. My argument that these issues are worth considering, acknowledging that writers in this day and age might be adopting without malicious intent, is that beyond just being bad writing to rely so much on readers assumptions of your characters/world it is also unknowingly propping up existing systems of oppression by association. Tell me again why all the elves in every mainstreamed fantasy setting have aryan features... Slim noses, light features, tall but not too tall, skinny but not gaunt, patient, educated, compassionate: in short, white and virtuous. Is there something inherent to the word Orc that prevents them from being calm and educated? That marks their culture and traditions as "wild" and militant? No, it isnt the word orc that ascribes unvirtue to the race, its their physical depiction. There is so much great fantasy out there, but so long as all the most popular fantasy (World of Warcraft, Magic the Gathering, Harry Potter, Star Wars) leans on these tropes, worlds like MBoF's and Ursula Le Guin's will be aberrant
You express yourself very eloquently here, and I appreciate your analysis. I totally agree with you that these issues are not only worth considering, but that we have an obligation to consider them. I also agree with you that most authors who use tropes that have roots in racism and colonialism are likely not doing so with any malicious intent or even awareness. Speaking for myself, I have a lot of learning to do, and it starts with willingness to listen and become more aware. Thank you so much for all of your comments on this -- they have been instructive for me.
Thank you for this important and nuanced video! I look forward to, hopefully, in future years, seeing yet more diversity in the genre. (I had to research the Oliphant reference! 😂)
Thank you, Heather. It’s a topic that isn’t necessarily easy to discuss in a calm and empathetic manner, but it’s too important not to talk about. I believe that fantasy is becoming richer than ever with so many new voices offering such wonderful stories.
My immediate knee-jerk reaction is No, that question and someone who holds that opinion is generalizing ! Which is exactly the problem with racism and sexism. Of course, the reality is more nuanced. For decades most mass market novels were written by white men, for white men, featuring Euro-centric cultures with white men as the heroes. We've all seen the chainmail bikinis. So while the genre certainly is not racist/sexist.. what was readily available definitely was influenced by it. Even without malicious intent - people write what they know, publishers publish what they know sells. We also have to consider the scale of things when writing fantasy. Most often, authors try to think up new worlds, new cultures. And try to make them believable. Adding in extra cultures for the sake of diversity is _tough_. Erikson's Malazan is a perfect example - wonderfully done. But it took 10 massive books written by a professional anthropologist to do it, with more books from a second anthropologist adding on to it. Not the sort of stuff anyone wants to or could write, or read. Personally, I love reading about different cultures, and the market for them has been steadily growing over the last three or four decades. Strong female characters can also be great, and have been around since forever - but they, too, have grown in prominence during these decades. Lots more to be said - and listened to - about this, but I seriously believe fantasy was ahead of the curve when it comes to racism and sexism. Long before SJWs became a hype in recent years.
Rob Paul I deeply appreciate your thoughtful and nuanced response here. Erikson is a good example of a writer who consciously chose to portray diverse cultures and a world where equality among genders is the norm (correct me if I’m wrong). There’s so much potential in fantasy to question the status quo, and that potential has begun to be realized in the last twenty or thirty years more than ever before. I’m personally thankful that the genre is growing, with more readers and writers of all sorts. It’s a wonderful time to be reading fantasy!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you 😊 and I'm also very grateful the genre is growing in all kinds of interesting directions! Erikson certainly did something special when it comes to gender, but also culture. Freaking spectacular overall, but I'm biased 😅 The world of Malazan simply doesn't place one gender above the other but has a reason for it, the most fantasy central trope ever. Magic. Both genders have pretty equal chances of being Talents, and magic trumps physical strength - hence equal opportunity. So while many cultures still have stereotypical gender roles, in the books we see both male and female wizards, priests, spies, soldiers, leaders up to and including gods. For the Malazan army, who form a huge part of the cast, gender is just a non issue. As is sexual preference for that matter. Individual strength or weakness is shown all around. The many cultures on display likewise are shown to have depth, strengths and flaws, wether they be tribal or empirical, hunter-gatherers or capitalist, matriarchal or patriarchal.
So what if they were white? Doesn't mean ethnicities can't enjoy the stories. There has never been a label that said these can only be read by white people.
Just found your channel and I must say your position is far more nuanced and reasoned than many people on both side of the argument. I'm a very progressive person and I see many people on my side who don't consider the whole context of LOTR and Tolkien in general (about his racist tendancies in descriptions, but generally on the opposite, progressive political stance on subject regarding racism (condemnation of appartheid wich, for the record, only ended in 1996, 23 years after Tolkien's death, so he definitely was progressive for his time) But I'm also a LOTR fan and I see many people on that other side being defensive of Tolkien to the point of answering the pertinent issues brought up by progressive with contempt and almost falling in the "being racist/sexist to own the woke" rabbit hole. You adressed everything with great care and tact and I applaud your way of handling the subject.
Thanks so much! It means a lot to me to read your comment. I was trying my best to reach for nuance and reason, and though I certainly have my biases, I hope I got somewhere close. Anyway, you perfectly expressed in your comment what I was trying to convey, so that makes me happy. Much appreciated!
Thank you! I agree with you that there is room for homogeneous fantasies that take a "historical" approach to their world building. In fact, some of my favorites are in that category. That said, I've noticed in the past that some people (probably very few these days) object to or disparage fantasy that doesn't conform to their notions of historicity (and I confess I might have had tendencies in that direction myself a couple decades ago), and that seems not only wrong but sort of silly to me now. Thanks for your comment -- much appreciated!
I found your video very balanced and open minded, which I appreciate. I agree with you: Just because our real world is racist, sexist, etc., doesn't mean fantasy books (usually set in something similar to the Middle Ages, the past, where racism and sexism were notorious) should portray the world in those books that way. Fantasy should imagine different possible worlds, different to ours (present or past). This particular point is bugging me while reading ACOTAR (I'm on my 2nd book). I find it reproduces sexist jokes and male-oriented (many references to d¡ck jokes, everything centered on d¡cks). I'm surprised because the author is a woman and from what I understood, her books should be feminist, but I don't see that and those things bother me. I wish she would have imagined a world that is different, not so reliant on the male-centered sex view. And I say this without being opposed to sex at all, not coming from a religious place either (I'm not religious), and not even coming from an LBGTI+ perspective. I would like to know your opinion on this if you want to comment.
Thank you for your comment! I should begin my reply by saying I have not read ACOTAR, so my opinion is limited in its usefulness in this specific case. In general, I think it's fine for a fantasy author to portray a patriarchal world as long as it's not glorified (which I find repugnant) and the consequences of that patriarchy are clear. It's painful to read, but there is value in exploring such pain. At the same time, I strongly support authors who decide to portray a world without patriarchy, and I think those who criticize an author for that specific reason are missing a big part of the point of fantasy, which is a genre that encourage the imagination, sometimes pointing to that which might be rather than that which is. All the best!
I really enjoyed your video! I have really enjoyed the fantasy genre for many years now (Tolkien and others as well), and I understand how people can criticize it for what it does and doesn't overtly present, but I still don't understand the concept of holding authors from 70 years ago to the cultural standards of today. I mean, suppose that the elves in Tolkien's works were all dark skinned females and not light skinned males. I'd imagine our current cultural climate to still have similar criticisms of his works for not including other "insert race/gender/sexual preference here". My point is that from our perspective here in the future it is easy to criticize the work of older authors and negatively label them or their works because of their portrayal or lack of representation of any group of people. That to me is a travesty for people like Tolkien.
Thank you, Corey! I think you put it well. While I believe it’s important to examine the works of the past and be honest about them (recognizing that we’re judging them from our own cultural lens), I also think it can be a distortion to hang a label like “racist” on someone when we find a racist trope present in their writing, sort of like using a hammer when tweezers would work better. All the best!
I was putting off watching this video for awhile since most of the conversations that I’ve had on this subject have been rather unpleasant. I think you did a great job at discussing the subject however. And a great job at promoting civil discussion. I do disagree somewhat with your “it’s fantasy so it’s ok” argument since I always think fantasy should be as realistic as possible excluding the fantasy elements (like dragons). On another note the show Attack on Titan does an excellent job at displaying racism and working it into the story without glorifying it. Cheers!
The Serpent Thank you! Among the ones I’ve done so far, this was probably the hardest video to make. In light of recent events, I’m actually glad I made this video, and I hope I didn’t botch anything too much. Fantasy is too important to me to be silent on this question, and I do believe the genre has become enriched by the diversity of the last 30 years or so. As I said in the video, fantasy is uniquely suited to imagine other worlds that might lead us to question our own. Thanks so much for watching and commenting- as always, I value your thoughts!
Philip Chase it’s good to see how connected you are with the community you’ve been creating. I agree that diversity (as long as it’s not forced and preachy) is absolutely a good thing. I’m curious, have you read the Rage of Dragons by Evan Winter? It’s a gladiatorial fantasy novel by a African author with a lot of African cultures in it. It was fantastic
The Serpent I’ve only recently heard about Rage of Dragons. I’ll look into it, but it’s likely I’ll buy it the next time I buy some books. Your endorsement of it definitely encourages me to do so. Thanks!
I'm definitely late to this video, but what a great discussion! 🙌 For me, I love books like the Broken earth trilogy and a lot of modern fantasy is so diverse and full of new perspectives. But other modern writers, I have such a hard time understanding why they still go back to boring tropes. For example, I could not get into the Kingkiller chronicles because of his potrayl of women. Even though I loved the writing and totally understand why people praise the books, it was just such a hinder for me. Especially the character Denna was so one dimensional and tropy & in the Wise man's fear & the Felurian scene...! It took me out of the story completely and I feel that Rothfuss really need to consider how he write women characters overall. I think it's really disappointing when modern writers still cling on to old ideas of how to write women, etc.. That's a dealbreaker for me! But as I said, so many other authors are really breaking new grund in the fantasy genre & I love to see it! 😉 Excellent video!
Thanks so much! I agree with you about the continuing issues with the portrayal of women that we see with some modern authors. Though I admire much about The Name of the Wind, I actually agree with you about the portrayal of women being a serious weakness, and that’s actually something my students and I have specifically discussed in my Fantasy Novels course. Fortunately, more and more authors are freeing themselves from such harmful tropes as the genre becomes more diverse. I appreciate your supportive comments immensely- thanks again!
Women characters are lacking from both women and men authors. Name of the wind is a good example, and then theres women authors writing blank slates like twilight and city of bones going after toxic men.
Very interesting analysis. Although I admit not being a fantasy lover. I like your videos Pro. Chase, because I like how you explain. It heps me as a non english speaking native to learn some more, your tone and word usage helps me... thank you 😀
Awesome video! Particularly relevant now with the Lord of the Rings show coming out soon and debates about the casting choices there. Personally I’d rather just read/see new SFF inspired by non-medieval European cultures than going back and injecting diversity where there in truth wasn’t any. Poppy Wars is high on my TBR for this year and I’ll make a point to seek out others. Would love some recommendations here if you have any. I’m just over a year into fantasy now so it’s been mostly the traditional, classics for me so far.
Thanks, Mitch! I liked The Poppy War Trilogy, though I thought there was some narrative klunkiness. Definitely worth checking out. Abby Salter just made a helpful video on non-Western fantasies, and I highly recommend you check it out. Her list has a lot of Asian inspired series on it. You’ll find her channel by searching for her name. Personally, I hope to read The Green Bone Saga this year since I’ve been hearing great things about it. Happy reading!
About historical accuracy... I don't know. I mean... huh. Suppose that Charles Saunders were still alive and that he wrote another Imaro novel. Now, Imaro is set in a fantasy version of Africa, like Conan is set in a fantasy version of Europe. There aren't going to be a lot of white guys, Asian guys, Native Americans, Maori, etc. in this Imaro novel. It's Africa, sub-Saharan Africa. There's more likely to be Wakyambi and other beings of African folklore.ӿ But, of course, there's no reason a world with magic _couldn't_ have beyond-our-world levels of contact between cultures at a point corresponding to, IDK, the 1200s. One might almost expect the most powerful wizards or priests of such a world to know about each other. Maybe Merlin vacations in Hawaii, because he can teleport. ^_~ I don't really fret if the story has mostly or even all black, white, or whatever if the setting is one where that makes sense. But, I do like that there is fantasy being written which draws on geography, history, and folklore from all over the world. I'm fine with medieval European stuff, but it's very cool that that's no longer ALL that there is. m i n o r s p o i l e r ӿ Yes, I know that there is a white villain and an Asian martial artist in the second book. But they are very few and, of course, no match for Imaro, because he's the hero.
Thanks for the excellent comment, Salinor. I do think it’s cool to have some fantasy settings with cultures that are relatively isolated from other parts of the world, but also that fantasy settings with more diversity can be equally plausible. It all depends on how the author envisions the history of that world. Also, if I could teleport, I’d definitely vacation in Hawaii!
This was a good video and you handled it very well, but people throw about that "mongol-type" quote a lot when talking about Tolkien as some sort of gotcha that the orcs are clearly meant to be representative...and I just don't see it. It's certainly not a good quote by any stretch, but he said, "degraded and repulsive VERSIONS" (insuiating that the real life counter-parts are not degraded or repulsive) of "least lovely mongol-types" (least lovely implies that the majority are lovelier) . Tolkien, without a doubt, was unconsciously or otherwise echoing the worldview and times he lived in, and "straight white man'd" it as a result. But I don't see that quote as some kind of "aha!" moment without some other context, which we don't have.
I agree with you. It's painful for me to read the quote, but I think it would be unfair to read it in isolation, forgetting all the other things Tolkien said and did and forgetting that he, like all of us, was a product of his time. My only real point is that good people have blind spots and can be unaware of their own biases and prejudices. In regard to fantasy, I think a lot of us fans might not realize that some of the familiar tropes have roots in colonialism, racism, and sexism. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean we need to throw out those tropes entirely, but awareness of those roots is important, especially for modern fantasy writers who might wish to upend the tropes or appropriate them for new purposes. Thanks so much for your thoughtful response -- I appreciate it!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, I entirely agree with you. I hope my comment didn't come off like Tolkien shouldn't be criticized or viewed through this lens, or that he didn't certainly have some views that 2021 would not look upon fondly. You struck the appropriate balance here, I think, where you mentioned the quote but also talked about blind spots and the era etc. It just bothers me when people hold out that quote as a, "aha! proof of racism!" and I certainly wouldn't call it PROOF of anything. Always enjoy your thoughtful videos, Philip, keep em up!
@@readbykyle3082 Not at all, Kyle - your comment struck me as thoughtful and on point. In fact, I really appreciate the feedback - it can be a difficult topic to discuss, but I find nuanced responses like yours to be extremely helpful, so thanks again!
The issue with the question as you pose it is this: Fantasy isn't something that can be racist or sexist in and of itself. It is a genre built around one thing: creating a world that is unlike our own. And I think this video, as a result, misses the point by just a little bit. The question that gets asked isn't so much, "Is fantasy on whole bigoted," but rather "Are these elements commonly found in fantasy bigoted?" And the answer is always, "it depends." For example, at the time this video was made, the conversation HEAVILY circled around Dungeons & Dragons's orcs. And I don't think it is unfair to say that D&D, which was made by a self-proclaimed biological essentialist, has racist and sexist roots and many of the tropes Gygax employed were... let's just say "less than flattering." And, yeah, a lot of D&D gets its roots from Tolkien (whom is the main focus of your video), but there's just something fundamentally different from between how AD&D handled races to how Tolkien handled them that just makes my hairs bristle. AD&D feels like Gygax read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit but none of Tolkien's other writings on his stories and Gygax just ran with how he interpreted them. As for your commentary on the historical accuracy bit. 1000% what you said. Like, it's fine (in my opinion) to include overt racism and sexism in your works if the point is for your characters to try and fix the broken systems... but if you're just having racism and sexism and it's just there with no reason... I need to ask "Why?" If you're going to include themes that make your work less accessible to minorities, you need a good reason for it and "historical accuracy" is not it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It has and it hasn't. Even the newest version that has playtest materials coming out still has the old conflation of race and culture issue... but it's getting better. Each release is less problematic than the last, but it does get old seeing easily avoidable issues.
For every Earthsea book there are two Tor books. The problem that makes Fatnasy problematic is the same issue that makes Post-Apocalypse problematic. It is an examination of our culture in it's primitive forms, the nobility of struggle against a wilderness both literally and politically. Racism and Sexism are just as common in Fantasy stories as swords or dragons. These can be expressed in an enlightened manner, but it can also be portrayed in a very dark way. What's worse even in the more enlightened exploration of those themes a reader can draw conclusions that support racism and sexism because the themes are expressed in parable, not articulated in a lecture.
Well said, Michael. Portraying racism doesn’t necessarily make a story racist. It can even be a critique. On the other hand, stories that repeat or support racist tropes are a different matter. Thanks for the comment!
I do agree that we do not need to be *limited* by something like historical accuracy when depicting quasi-medieval settings in fantasy literature, whether it be in race or anything else. On the other hand, need we be *obligated* to fulfill some form of "representation" in say our fantasy series dealing with Vikings? Does the exclusion of such types of representation imply racism or colonialist attitudes? Surely it's not wrong to include such types of diversity, and yet on the other hand, is it not becoming something of a cliche of its own to include a Moorish character or (offensively, I think) an Asian slave (as in the Vikings TV series on History Channel) as a form of almost tokenism? Surely, there is a difference between an utterly fantastic series, and one that appears to be grounded in some kind of alternate historical premise. I would not expect to see a racially diverse cast of characters in Rebecca Kuang's "Poppy War" (again, this very awkward North American idea about diversity, which pretty much narrowly refers to the checked box categories on a US census form.) Diversity in fantasy and sci-fi is great. Let's have more of it. But there are some implications here that I am not sure I understand or am comfortable with.
Greekvvedge Well said! I agree with you that there’s room in fantasy for historically inspired narratives with more or less homogeneous cultures. I’m really objecting to the idea that including diversity in fantasy is somehow wrong because it’s historically inaccurate. It’s an old idea that is expressed less often these days, to be sure. I also agree that tokenism for its own sake can be problematic and even insulting. So, yes, I agree with you that there is no obligation to feature diversity in a fantasy book. That said, I hope that fewer people object to diversity in a particular book that might be, for example, Viking inspired on some level because “there were no brown or black people among the actual Vikings”. There was no actual magic or dragons among historical Vikings either, but no one objects to those things. So, I think you expressed yourself very well, and I also think we agree on all counts, with perhaps a slight difference in emphasis. Just an aside here: The Poppy War actually has some diversity in that there is a clear hierarchy based on skin tone in Nikan, and there are cultures from outside of Nikan that are regarded as racially different, such as the Hesperians, who seem to be based on Europeans. Thanks so much for watching and responding with your helpful and well articulated insights!
Great thoughts! And don't forget, fantasy provides a framework in which you can come at an issue from any angle you choose, for example, M.T. Anderson's "Thirsty." It's not about being gay; it's about vampires. But it is SO about being gay!
Very important, well thought out and well said video. I can't say I disagree with much of anything you said in the video except for one thing. A small thing. I wouldn't even have known this little fact unless I'd been perusing TolkienGateway(dot)Net a few months ago, and landed on this page: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Harfoots. Now, Harfoots are the most "common and typical" of the Hobbits you are going to encounter in Middle Earth, they are what makes up The Shire, and thus Hobbiton, Buckland, and Tookland. Harfoots are the sort of Hobbit that our five primary Hobbit characters are. Note this first line under "Nature:" "They were shorter and smaller than the other breeds, *_browner of skin,_* had no beards, and did not wear any footwear; they had neat and nimble hands." So the only thing I disagreed with that you said, was that the heroes of *The Lord of the Rings* were white. In fact, all five of the Hobbits had brown skin. What shade of brown is unclear, but it was browner than that of a white person to have been mentioned in Tolkien's texts. And yes, this means Peter Jackson whitewashed the heck out of Hobbiton. Granted, most people projected their own bias onto the characters, myself included, and assumed they were white. Same situation with the characters from "The Wheel of Time," but a couple of WoT RUclipsrs recently did a video showing textual evidence, as well as evidence from the notes of Robert Jordan, that some of these characters could indeed be characters of color. Characters that everyone, artists included, assumed were white. That doesn't change the fact that there were indeed non-white characters present, in either of these authors' work.
What an excellent point! Thank you for pointing that out. As you say, it’s hard to tell exactly how brown Tolkien meant there, but the fact is the Harfoots are browner than the other two types of hobbit. Just goes to show you that nothing is “black and white,” especially when it comes to people. People are complex, which is one reason why we should avoid labels for individuals except in extreme cases. Tolkien was, I think, a good person who, like all of us, was in part a product of his time. I really appreciate you bringing this insight into the mix - thank you!
I don't believe in my mind that fantasy is racist or sexist. This is coming from a man of color. Fantasy should be an escapist and not involve current politics. I don't need to know the ethnicity or color of the character because it should be irrelevant. If you want to envision Aarogon as black or brown go for it. Who cares. I just need to know the content of their heart(thanks MLK). I feel if you are looking for that kind of representation there are many books out there in the genre for you to find. I don't feel the need to look for that to be happy. A well written story could be written by a woman and I would view it as an equal to a man's story because that's what it's about.. the story not what check the box person wrote it. I wouldn't view Robin Hobb as a superior or inferior to any male writer except in the context of the story written. As a Hispanic male I've never read any Hispanic based fantasy nor do I know if any is out there. I could care less. I want a good story, great characters, and a memory to take away from my experience regardless of who or what wrote the story. We can all unify under the idea of great fiction no matter the source.
As an additional point to my discussion I believe Dr. Chase elegantly put his perspective out there and handled the issue at hand very well. I admire your perspective and taste and you have done this discussion a great service. Thank you.
Short and long answer: no. If indeed we were going to consider the genre in itself I would consider that for the last decades the genre itself has been clearly less racist and sexist. When we discard the original romanticism and medievalism parts who have some racism and special sexism as part of their historical representation, we find a genre that as early as the 80s stays at the forefront of literary human imagination alongside science fiction (and the ties of the fantasy and the science fiction genre are clear and continue from this point). If we consider something written in the first half (some in the very first half) of the XXth century and we compare with other works of the same time period, they are surprisingly forward minded in some aspects, and just as not as most if not all works of other genres of the period. It's a bit like considering Abraham Lincoln a racist (which objectively he was, but certainly not by his time's standards). When the genre then takes the leap to forget or outright subvert the 'romantic' reading of 'historical/medieval' fantasy we find some of the most fascinating exploration of alternative forms of societies in more ways than one. In general, I feel this question in particular is loaded in its own, and clearly not a fair one.
Jordi Richart Well said! I hope from the video that you gathered I feel much the same way. The last thirty years are, in my mind, Exhibit A as to the diversity and quality one can find in fantasy. As I say, I believe fantasy as a genre is uniquely suited to inspire positive change. That said, there’s a legacy from the past (the 19th and early 20th century) that has bequeathed tropes that we might do well to question. The Lincoln analogy is apt, I think, and I hope the spirit in which I discussed Tolkien in particular shows my agreement. Thanks for your thoughtful comments, with which I agree!
Yes, any work of art will be a reflection and interpretation of the culture it is produced in. As you say, it would be miraculous if early fantasy did not contain racist and sexist undertones. But I think the genre today is very progressive. There's fantastic LGBT representation like in the Locked Tomb Series. There's non-eurocentric works like The Rage of Dragons Poppy War, etc. And I particularly enjoy the look at class and systems of power present in all of Brandon Sanderson's work.
Matt S Beautifully said! I completely agree with your take on the genre today, and you’re absolutely right about the diverse representation it includes. This diversity is something that can only strengthen the genre, in my opinion. Thanks for the insightful comments!
I'm more of a non fiction reader so I can't judge the genre as a whole but I do love a few fantasy series and none more than Tolkiens works. However there really is no way to avoid the fact his work is a tad patriarchal, somewhat racist, flirts uncomfortably with eugenics and has a big old dose of orientalism Does it mean Tolkien was racist? Nop, but it definitely reflects a problematic structural mindset. Yes it's a product of its time but that is only a reason not an apology
Problem (aside from flagrant denial from a discouraging number of people) is too many people see these issues as one dimensional. Sexism isn't just the number of women in a story and racism isn't just skin color. Yes it's a reflection of its time but LOTR is an important and influential book and it's clearly mostly a fairly strict patriarchy with its society and it's institutions built around it; orcs and skin color aside it casually describes "higher and lesser men" and displays their blood "mixing" in a negative light (this hierarchy of races is very present throughout all his work) and it is heavily euro centric, not just by virtue of focusing on "the west" but describing it as more advanced and better in an evolutionary paradigm, in fact orientalism is probably the most present of the ones I listed Silmarillion and LOTR are my favorite fiction books but I think its important we recognise these shortcomings Orientalism, racism and sexism can seem like a broken record to many of these deniers but the fact is it is this exact kind of paradigme which at times resulted in at best systemic social division and inequality and at worst unspeakable atrocities (in the time of Tolkien) Sorry if any of that sounded off, English is my 3rd language
Fantasy being racist and sexist......... Sometimes. The actual books can be, so can the video games, which can take place in different time periods, whether it be the past, present, or future.
I love this video, and what you have said, but one thing I will say is this, Racism as we use it and know it today, did not exist in the ancient world nor even in the middle ages, in places like Alexandria or Constantinople, and or even Rome did have diverse populations, especially in port cities where there was much trade. The racism of the past, wasn't us Whites versus Blacks, or Us Asians verus White. Race as we see it today, originated in the Colonial Era, around the 1600s, and sadly it was Western Europeans who came up with the concept, to justify their "superiority" Romans and the Greeks alike hated and I mean hated the Northern Europeans. It is sad, that most Western/Northern Europeans don't understand that the Greeks and the Romans considered their ancestors as barbaric, depicting them as beasts in their artwork. Julius Ceaser even jusitfied the ill treatment pretty much inhuman practices that the Romans did to the Germanic peoples. The conquered identified with their conqeurors Western Europe and their Holy Roman Empire, and embracing Greek traditions; and philosophy was the case of really bad stockholm syndrome. The Romans and the Greeks respected Africans more than they did Northern Europe, and Nazi Germany went out of its way to prove the Romans right about them, which is the saddest thing. I mean western Europeans love Aristotle but do they know how he thought of their ancestors, and more than likely would feel about them... here is the full quote from the man himself about his opinion of Northern/Western Europeans. "The nations inhabiting the cold places and those of Europe are full of spirit but somewhat deficient in intelligence and skill, so that they continue comparatively free, but lacking in political organization and capacity to rule their neighbors." yikes, Aristotle the well loved philosopher among Western/Northern Europeans thought so lowly of their ancestors, that to me it is somewhat embarrasing to praise civilizations who gave no crap about Western/Northern Europeans. Europe even got its name from the greeks, many Ancient greeks would see that as they have the superior culture and intelligence, the Greeks nor the Romans passed down a penny to "Western Civilization" The two ancient societies wanted nothing to do with Germanics, Anglo Saxons, and whatever was north of Rome or Greece. Yet people praise them, the same people who oppressed their ancestors, depicting them as beasts in their art, took them as slaves and raped them, even killed them without thinking, yea talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
You’re absolutely right, I think, that racism as we know it is a relatively recent construct. Even the concept of race is more sociological than biological. Thanks for the input!
Okay, but you had *one* book in your top 10 fantasy that had a woman or POC main character. So yeah. It’s pretty racist and sexist and continues to be. Also I reject the idea that once again, it falls upon the victim to “use nuance” when dealing with racists and sexists. And yes, not questioning your society and assumptions is racist. There aren’t many of the hardened positions that you have in mind anymore. At this point, if you fail to learn and expand your horizons, in this day and age, it *is* a hardened position. The onus to grow is on YOU, not me.
Sorry, English isn't my native language so I hope I can express my thoughts without being misunderstood... Is there a minimum of books we all should have that include strong females and or people of color? Or what do you mean? Do you criticize the generally lack of such of in fantasy literature? Or do you really think people who aren't of color have the responsibility to dig through the book shelves to look for it? I personally read what I think is entertaining. I don't care as long as it's good. And if a book has issues I recognize them and look at them in context. Fortunately we are not in the earlier 20 century. Fortunately a lot has changed. But branding an author as racist and feeling bad to read it? .... come on
Thank you for this. I was getting disheartened by the overwhelming denialism in the community. It is important to remain openminded and critical when approaching subjects like this, instead of falling into political traps
Thank you! It's a tough topic in many ways, and some people seem to think it will all go away if they can shush anyone discussing it, but I think it's too important not to talk about. I strongly agree with you about the importance of being openminded when approaching it.
🤦♂️ You can't have those because it's the reader telling the author how to write their own book and what they are feeling. It's like sitting there and telling someone who wrote song lyrics about suicide and then saying we'll you should have written about abuse of women. it doesn't work that way. No author should write in POC of women because REAL WORLD. It's not the real world it fantasy. The characters of different races come from what the author makes up.
I think fantasy publishers are slowly starting to push the genre beyond its sexist & racist roots. Take for instance LotR, the idea that it could be published today is absurd. But that’s a good thing. Tolkien could easily revise his story to be more inclusive and less bigoted.
Harrison Williams You’re right on all accounts. Fantasy has actually become much more diverse, and I see that trend as continuing. It makes me sad to acknowledge the truth you wrote about Tolkien’s work since, as I said in the video, I grew up on Tolkien, and he brought me to fantasy by revealing a keen sense of beauty and sorrow in his stories. I guess my relationship with Tolkien’s work has become more complex than it was when I was young. I still love it, but there’s too much at stake to not acknowledge its faults.
doc837 Excellent point! The Hardic people of Earthsea for the most part are various tones of brown. This was a somewhat unusual but deliberate and wise choice on Le Guin’s part back in the 1960’s. Thanks for the comment!
Well said! However, Arwen doesn’t appear in LOTR nearly as much as she does in the Peter Jackson films. She’s mostly a matter for the appendices. Jackson wisely increased her role for the films, for example by giving her Glorfindel’s role in saving Frodo by the ford near Rivendell. Eowyn is interesting, but she is most certainly a trope that Tolkien took straight from Old Norse sagas. For example, see Signy in the Saga of the Volsungs. Galadriel is wonderful, but there’s no question that she’s idealized, more ethereal than an in the flesh woman.
I should add that I do think that, though she fits the pattern of the shieldmaiden in Old Norse/Germanic stories, Eowyn is the closest Tolkien came to really developing a female character with her own arc, motives, and interests. So, your point really is a good one and would have been worth mentioning in the video. There are quite a few female characters in The Silmarillion too, though, like all the characters in The Silmarillion, they tend to be flat and idealized. I think LOTR is still a wonderful story for women and girls to read. In fact, my 12 year old daughter recently finished LOTR and loved it. And I read The Hobbit to my daughters when they were little.
A series such as LOTR may seem "problematic" in this day and age, but I don't really think it's fair to judge things from the past based on present standards. Personally I don't really care that fantasy in the past has largely excluded women. When I think of epic fantasy, the race or gender or sexuality of the characters ranks very low on the list of things that define it- frankly there are so many more important things that the genre was built on. But if that's what a reader wants, there are plenty of authors out there who write these things that they can read, rather than criticize those who "aren't inclusive enough". Also, I will never understand why the opinions of minorities should get a boost in such conversations. I am a woman and Hispanic, but I don't get why that matters. I don't think my opinion should be any more valid because of this, because doing so seems more racist or sexist to me than the literature that people take issue with in the present.
Great to hear your take! I agree that we need to take into account (to the extent we can) how past standards differ from those of the present. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I really dislike this logic of “if you haven't mentioned women or black / asian people you are -ist (racist, misogynistic, and so on ). Middle earth is a fictional place and it is one continent of Arda, just like Westeros is one continent of a more vast world. I'm from Italy yet I don't see Italians in every single movie Hollywood makes (or any book that has been written). Does this mean Hollywood hates Italy? I don't think so.
Earthsea: Yes. But Actually No. (Though to be fair the Sexism bit is in purely to comment on Sexism given LeGuin was a feminist and considered Sexism the plague.)
If you read that description of orcs and immediately in your head think of black people…..I think that says more about you than it does about Tolkien. Orcs are not racist. This is ridiculous.
Tolkien is not referring to black people in his letter when he talks about the origin of orcs. He’s referring to a European stereotype of Asian people. He says it himself. Please note that, just as I say in the video, this doesn’t mean I’d apply the label “racist” to him.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy First off, I apologize for not being clear with the first comment. The reason I said black people was because I am aware of other claims that orcs are racist caricatures of black people. I’m sorry for not being clear with that; I jumped the gun too soon. And just to be clear, I wasn’t saying that you specifically called him a racist. I just know that based on quotes like these, people could very easily consider him to be racist, and I strongly disagree. Great video, by the way! I’m enjoying looking through your other videos. I love RUclipsrs dedicating themselves to exploring fantasy!
@@grimdarkwrld Thank you for clarifying, Sam. I appreciate it a lot, and I agree with you that it would be a mistake to slap the label “racist” on Tolkien. That would involve ignoring the many ways in which he was the opposite of a racist - he was someone who opposed forms of racism in his time. As I say in the video, I’d like to think that, if he were around today, Tolkien would recognize that some of the tropes he didn’t question and leaned on in his writing had origins in colonialism and racism. He was a brilliant and in many ways empathetic person, but he was (like all of us) a person of his time and place. In general, I think it’s better not to apply labels to people and instead to try to understand the whole person in their context. Calling a particular behavior racist or examining tropes that reinforce racism or sexism is another matter. I think it’s important to explore these things without branding people and with a desire to understand the person rather than judge and condemn them. Anyway, I’m grateful for your feedback, and I deeply appreciate you watching the videos on my channel!
Malazan has the worst characters of any fantasy. Post modernism is devoid of reality and creates a poor view of individuals and this is what there isn't a single good character in Malazan.
You cant beat K I haven’t met you, so I would never presume such a thing. Your question also puzzles me since I would think that anyone watching the video would see that I’m not in favor of characterizing any people as orcs.
Very interesting topic! While I understand and respect the opinions here, I can't say I agree on many of the points. Anything that hints at PC/SJW agendas triggers my right wing rage...kidding (kind of) I am actually pretty liberal, but don't feel a need to live in a world that revolves around walking on eggshells of peoples feelings and constantly fretting over who might get offended by what. Call me crazy, but how about the author writes the story they want to tell with the characters they want to portray and then let the free market decide if the book is offensive or not. Also, at about the 12:00 mark, you state that you will continue to read white/male authors even though you recognize "possible shortcomings of their portrayal of race and gender and culture"...why would potential shortcomings of this nature just be the province of white males? Is a woman, or person of color, or a member of the LGBTQ community somehow immune from the possibility that they could have shortcomings of their portrayal of race, gender and culture? Finally I found your comment interesting regarding Tolkein (using him as an example) of failing to "question the powerful and underlying assumptions of their culture and time". Why would he?, or a better question, Why would one judge a man born in 1892 based on 2020 ideals? I am not saying anything bad about Tolkein, but if you look at historical figures in general, including those we usually regard as "heroes", if you do a deep dive into their history, you will find that most of these "heroes" were actually pretty despicable people when using PC 2020 standards as your benchmark. The point I am trying to make, and not very well, is that society changes, culture changes...if Orcs are actually based on some sort of 100 year old racial stereotype WHO CARES...that was then, this is now, move on. #CancelOrcs
Great response! I agree with you that anyone -- any sort of person -- can be guilty of "possible shortcomings of their portrayal of race and gender and culture." That is absolutely true, and such portrayals are usually not harmless. I have been in situations -- both in my home country of the United States and abroad -- where people's assumptions about me as a straight white man have felt threatening or inaccurate or even amusing. However, for the most part, I have been able to brush off or laugh at such assumptions because of the power and privilege I have as a straight white man. Members of groups that have enjoyed less power cannot afford to laugh the same way -- in fact, often enough, assumptions about them have deadly consequences, and at the least such assumptions have been used to denigrate them and justify persecuting them. This is why I choose to listen when people tell me they find certain portrayals hurtful, and as a straight white man, I personally feel a special obligation to listen. Regarding the questioning of powerful assumptions of our culture and time, I think you also make a good point. Most of us lack the imagination and the will to question those cultural assumptions. I'm sure that many racists and even slave owners in the 19th century thought of themselves as decent and even righteous people. I don't doubt that the majority of upstanding soldiers in Nazi Germany found ways to look in the mirror and see a moral person. But we don't need to dwell on the extreme cases. I gave the example of Tolkien in the video because I agree with you: It would be wrong to label him a "racist", and any nuanced and fair attempt to assess him must take into account not only his many statements against the worst forms of racism in his day but also the fact of his cultural surroundings and assumptions. He strikes me as a very decent person, in fact, who likely would have been astonished at the notion that some people have found some of the tropes he used as racist and colonialist. Someone else wrote to me with the example of Abraham Lincoln, who, by the standards of 2020, was undoubtedly a racist. It's a great example. So, yes, I agree with you that it's too simple to sit in judgement using our standards. However, in 2020, would I be wrong to describe the baddies in my book the same way Tolkien described orcs in his letter (the one I quoted)? I think so. I'm not sure I really answered any of your questions or concerns, but I do appreciate your input a lot. This wasn't a comfortable or easy dialogue to have even before recent events here in the USA put such issues in the national spotlight in a big way (I made the video before the recent escalation of the issue, but I'm not sure if it was good or bad timing!) -- so I'm glad you felt comfortable expressing yourself. As I say in the video, fantasy has become incredibly diverse and thus enriched in the last 30 years or so. I take hope from that, and I hope to learn a lot from it too. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Dude, what the hell? You sound so brainwashed when you say the power and privilege you have as a straight white man. That sounds like someone who thinks they're superior. You have to get out of that mindset. Surely you didn't think that 10 or 20 years ago.
@@BradLad56 I definitely don’t want to come off as thinking I’m superior, so I’ll have to work on that. What I’m trying to sound like is someone who’s ready to learn from others, even those who disagree with me or might be critical of books I love. My experience is that people are not as terrible as the labels we put on them, and I think that, in general, most of us could work on our listening skills. Twenty years ago I was reading a lot of history, so I did have a sense of the advantages that being a white male gave me. I’m sure I had a lot of learning to do then, as I do now! Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Watching many shows and blacks always die and are always bad guys, cowards, or not there ar all. The Flash, Game of throwns, Star gate SG 1, Primeval, the 100, so many more.
Representation has always been a big problem with Hollywood. Attempts to adjust it are often met with hostility. Someone could write a whole history about it.
You don't understand fantasy stories. The majority of them are not set on earth, right? So, telling any author he needs to add people of color or LGBT, or what have you does not work. For starters, you don't know what the person is writing or trying to say. On top of that, they are writing what they know and about the world they came up with.
While I admit that I’ve enjoyed and admire aspects of Sanderson’s books that I’ve read, I’d be open to listening to criticism along the lines you mention. I would disagree with the idea that Sanderson is a hard core racist with an overtly racist agenda in his books (that’s not what you’re saying anyway), but there are certain themes and topics, such as slavery, that perhaps he might want to consider or talk over with people. In addition, at the least, perhaps he would do well to consider some of his portrayals. I do think there could be a nuanced and respectful but critical discussion about them.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I genuinely appreciate your response, and I agree. Thank you for taking the time to make this video and discuss issues that are difficult and at times, uncomfortable. I came to your channel because I was so impressed with how you handled the question of sexual violence in Malazan. While it sounds odd, Erikson’s inclusion of that issue has always been really important to me, but to see a group of men speak about it with such compassion and understanding was incredibly meaningful. So thank you, and looking forward to more great discussions. :)
@@unladenswallow43 Thanks so much! I do believe that literature at its best is both a reflection of life and an opportunity to explore it, including difficult, painful things like sexual violence. That said, it’s extremely important that an author handle such things with great sensitivity and by dealing with the consequences. In general, I think Erikson does this very well. Robin Hobb is another good example. It’s important for fantasy writers and fans to be aware of such things, I believe, because ours is a genre where sexual violence has often been used as a prop to glorify an avenging male hero. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Orcs are not black people, they are orcs. Neither dark elves are blacks. Etc it's why it's called fantasy. I can imagine what I want. Woke people nowadays try to mine everything that exists. They enjoy destroying what other people write. One of the most common comments I see here on youtube is questions like (high pitch voice) why don't you read more female writers? Why don't you read more gay characters. And most tubers fall to that. Why should I? I don't care the gender or colour of the writer. I Want to love the book. Fantasy is escapism. Don't bring nowadys politics to our world. These are my thoughts :)
I find your point regarding Tolkien's description of the orcs alarming. To me, it sounds like you're trying to police the way authors can describe the appearances of their monsters, creatures, etc labeling them as "Racist". That's a dangerous slope. Where does that line end? Can no monsters be ugly? Can we not have traditional toklien-esque orcs in fantasy anymore? Do we all have to design our creatures in a similar, specific way as to avoid stepping on some zealot's eggshell? Oh, don't give anyone small eyes. Make sure everyone's noses are narrow and straight. And don't forget that everyone's body type must be average. Ridiculous. This kind of thought control is what kills writing, not enriches it. If you find the description of a non-existent monster/creature racist, I think that's more of a problem with you than the author. When I read the description of a stereotypical vampire, a gaunt and pale blood-sucking creature usually in a position of high stature, as a white man the thought of it being racist hasn't ever crossed my mind until this video and I'm sure you'd agree. I like vampires, reading, seeing them, writing them. But if an Orc is racist, so are they. That's two of the big time races down (Hell, vampires basically have an entire genre), how much longer until the rest? Now, I'm not gonna sugar coat things, there are definitely authors out there who have actually designed their fantasy races as a cut and paste racist stereotype of a real one. But Tolkien? You said it yourself, the man vocally spoke out against racism. My point is, like themes, this can be interpreted infinitely. If you're looking for racism, I'm sure you can find a way to see it. That's not the writer's fault, that's not the fans' fault, that's the individual's fault. Let's take a step back and use some common sense before we start labeling every fantasy author whose written about orcs as racist. To end positively though, I did enjoy your point at the end about "historical accuracy" being used in an argument about fantasy and I agree with it. That's solid and I never thought about it that way before. Besides, more diverse characters is usually a lot more interesting than everyone looking the same.
Judge Holden Well said, and I hope I made myself clear in saying that the label “racist” is not something I would apply to Tolkien, the person. If I wasn’t clear on that, my apologies. It’s not a word people should use lightly. That said, I am responding to people who have seen certain tropes, like orcs, as having roots in racist and colonialist stereotypes. Tolkien’s choice of words in that one letter would seem (to me) to give weight to such an analysis. Does that make him a racist? In my book, no. A nuanced look at the man would take into account his many other statements and, I think, lead to the conclusion that he was actually a pretty decent human being who lived during a time when racist and colonialist stereotypes were less questioned. Regarding the slippery slope, I think you make an important point. It really is possible to go too far in terms of calling out every little thing as offensive to someone or other. As I say in the video, I’m trying to listen to people and learn to be more aware. I’m also still a devoted fan of Tolkien too, by the way. He will always be my favorite author, but that doesn’t mean I will shut my eyes and ears to other people’s perceptions of shortcomings, or even potentially hurtful material, though unintended, in his work. Thanks very much for your thoughtful response - much appreciated!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy And I appreciate your well-written and civil response too. I think you hit the nail on the head with those last sentences. Being aware and able to hear other's people perceptions and thinking about them is key to being the best that we can be, both as writers, readers, and humans. Your response was a breath of fresh air from the usual dribble on RUclips and I respect you for that. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
@@MRJTD99 Thank you -- I appreciate both your kind words and the follow up. Regarding awareness of others, I could not have said it better than you did. This was a helpful and pleasant interaction for me, and I very much hope to hear from you again on some other fantasy-related topic.
It is not that monsters cant be ugly, it is that certain descriptions are *leaning* on viewers (or outright telling them) to find them ugly. Its all about the context in this case. Why is it ugly for the orc to have a nose that looks the way it does, or eyes that look the way they do, or body proportions in the way that they are? I challenge you to tell me why those things have ugliness inherent in them, and then maybe you'll realize that simply assuming which characteristics are the ones we give to the ugly monsters is racist. Other youtubers (Lindsay Ellis) have done great work examining the ways that we create "monsters" as society, and also gives an abbreviated history of monster antagonists in a way that shows their racial underpinnings. To another point, Vampires actually have a fascinating history tied to class, rather than race. In olden times peasants of feudal estates invented stories with villains that were predatory, insatiable, lustful, greedy, conniving, etc because that reflected the villains of their time: the aristocracy which took their women, land, money, and lives. Thus the vampires we know and love today were born. Its not exactly "race", but the distinction of these villains being exceptionally pale was relevant because pale skin was so highly sought after by royalty across the world (the lighter the skin, the less time you spent outside toiling in the fields and so the wealthier you must be), so other cultures can easily partake in and reinforce vampire tropes since the messaging behind the pale skin is universal.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 Thank you -- I will check out Lindsay Ellis's video/s on this topic. I'm sure I will learn a lot. I appreciate the comment!
LOL, a video from a nerdy white man's perspective =p. When Tolkien talks about the "race of men" are easily corrupted, or the "race of dwarves" cherish gold above all else...that is racism: a belief that moral character is a genetic trait. Racism is basically laziness...it's a belief that a group of people are superior because of their breeding...they didn't have to work at it, or learn it...they were just born that way. Interestingly, we know biologically that all humans are equal-there is no master race.
Interesting video. I prefer inter-cultural dialogue to diversity. I would like to say something about historical revisionism (not talking about fantasy). I am Portuguese, and my country was always diverse, even in the Middle Ages. However, you cannot say the same thing about other European countries. I also wouldn't like to have an American movie reinventing the history of my country just because it doesn't fit their ideology. I wish slavery had never existed in Portugal, but this is not what happened. The problem with 'diversity' nowadays, is that it is vastly infuenced by a totalitarian ideology. People are confusing ethics with ideology, which focuses on appearances and the politically correct. You even have English speaking people sayng that romance languages should be changes because they are sexist! In regards to diversity in fantasy: if the fantasy world is disconnected from reality, I would like it to be diverse. If the fantasy world is inspired in a specific culture and time, like The Witcher, I would like to have the feeling that I am in a slavic world. Countries in the Americas are more diverse for obvious reasons, not the entire world is like the US or the UK.
Thank you for this thoughtful response! You make some strong points. To me, education is so important, and awareness not only of one’s history but also the history of humanity. And, yes, honesty is essential too, with perhaps a strong dose of humility to make sure we listen and don’t judge reflexively. I appreciate your thoughts!
Scott Bishop That fantasy, like all other genres, is in large part consumer driven is an undeniable fact. However, I’d like people who don’t read fantasy (and often dismiss it) to at least understand that there’s so much more to the genre than they think. Of course, as you say, if they don’t like it, they won’t read it (and likely won’t watch my video!). Thanks for the comment!
That's Dangerous. You use a modern and vague reading of One's character as catalyst to your logic. So the notion of justice becomes ritualistic, shortsighted and speculative. For that you end up scandalizing charity.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I watched the your video and in the end you used the physicals description of the Ork as a proof of Tolkien's ''euro centricity'' or ''colonial inheritance''. This conclusion undone the temperate and careful approach from the beginning of the video. Maybe you if you analyze racial iterations inside LOTR notions (like dwarfs elves and etc.) you could extract better idea of who Tolkien's really was. Also, the man was a academic Catholic, so the Objective value (therefore salvation) of the human life beyond race is in the core of the belief. He without a doubt knew about the pitfalls of colonialism, by the Church's presence in it, once theres no lack of Jesuit and Franciscan documents about it. I'm just arguing that in doubt, a defense in good faith of his character would do more for your cause, then a vague (and however small) verdict of his guilt.
I have no issue with the writing diverse, interesting characters in Fantasy. I DO have an issue with retroactively adding people of color into older stories where they didn't exist because they are not supported by the story lore and they stick out like a sore thumb, removing any feeling of immersion. Write new, better, and more inclusive fantasy. Leave the old stuff how it was. Just my two cents. Edit: Typos..
I think that's a reasonable position to take. After all, there's no way to change what was written in the past, and there's plenty we can learn from it. Also, as you say, the stories with diverse characters and settings being written now offer new possibilities that are pretty exciting. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I went to this video looking for an educated and nuanced counterargument to some of my thoughts on the state of fantasy literature in the hope of thinking more clearly. You didn't disappoint. Subscribed. I'll keep an eye out for more great content!
@@joshcoward437 Thanks, Josh! It speaks highly of you that you seek out opinions that differ from yours. There is, I think, far too little of that these days, and too little social discourse with the intent to learn. I appreciate the interaction, and also the sub! 😁
NotcarlXD42eii o's It’s been a while since I’ve played D&D (the 1980s, in fact), so I’m out of touch, to be honest. I’d love to know what you’re referring to, though. If you mean that D&D is becoming more reflective of diversity, that would fit with one of the first observations I made in the video, which is that fantasy has become much more diverse in the last 30 years and is nothing like the stereotype some people have about it as a genre of wish fulfillment for awkward white males. Anyway, I’d love to know what you mean. Thanks for commenting!
Philip Chase nah the opposite I’m sad to say they are appealing to the “social justice warriors “and are changing things to please the mob, like orcs and “races “ . (Wait not the opposite but instead of changing their removing or censoring)
NotcarlXD42eii o's Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I’m generally not a fan of censorship. Personally, if I felt the need to include an orc-like race in a book I was writing, I’d add some nuance to them, perhaps make some of them perspective characters so we get their side of things. I know that’s been done a lot already. I’m not wise enough to know all the answers, but that seems to me a better approach than banning something like orcs outright, which won’t work anyway. In other words, maybe putting out some positive examples of what orcs can be (you don’t have to make them “nice”, just complex) might work better than saying nobody gets to use orcs anymore. My two cents for now, but I’d be willing to listen to other people’s ideas.
NotcarlXD42eii o's Not yet! I’ve written a few books (fantasy, of course), and I’ve gone as far as getting an agent, but no publisher yet. Someday, I hope!
I think the small number of people popping around throwing the big -ist words at people born well over a century ago can be a little silly. “Oh, look at me, the paragon of virtue because I just happen to be born later.” Indeed people are messy. People and their lives are filled with advantages and suffering bundled all together into one meat sack. Throwing these -ist terms can sometimes lose that nuance. Thanks!
I agree with you. Labels often prevent thinking and acknowledging another’s complexity. For me, it’s in general more important to identify racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination than it is to hang labels like racist and sexist on individuals. Most (all?) of us have our prejudices that we can work on, but a label ending in -ist implies that we can’t change.
Problamatic fantasy fiction is the best fantasy fiction. Why am I reading a book that conforms to the current political narrative when I get that everywhere in reality?
Anyone who thinks fantasy is racist, and sexist, and thinks it should be banned is way too sensitive, and needs to get a life. If you don't like high fantasy works that exist, and how they're written then don't view those works, or write your own PC SJW fantasy works. Btw I'm a white dude, who loves high fantasy, and I think a fantasy novel, or movie based on Ancient Egyptian mythology, would be awesome, if written, and done well. I love reading about Ancient Egypt, and it's myths. How could you not love a civilization that built such awe inspiring monuments, such as the Pyramids of Giza, the Sphinx, and the beautiful artwork, and jewelry they created. If you're an African American who loves high Fantasy, loves writing, and feels European based fantasy doesn't reflect your culture good enough, then Ancient Egypt provides a great source of inspiration for a non white, non European based work of High fantasy, that would be unique, and would be widely popular if done right.
Exodriver Well said! Banning a genre for any reason seems excessive to me too. In fact, as I say in the video, it’s misguided to characterize an entire genre on the basis of some of its works, and in fact fantasy has become incredibly diverse and rich in its representation. Even though I acknowledge that some of the tropes that exist in fantasy have racist and colonialist origins, I think it would also be a mistake to dismiss outright anything that contains those tropes. I don’t think I’ve ever read any fantasy with an overtly racist, sexist, and hateful agenda (I wouldn’t want to either). That said, I’m willing to listen to people who find those tropes racist, even if the book in question is beloved to me, like LOTR. It would be wrong to label Tolkien racist, I think, since a nuanced view of the man would acknowledge the many things he wrote against forms of racism in his time. However, like everyone else, he was a person of his time, and I can see where people object to some of the tropes. Basically, except in cases where someone is obviously embracing racist rhetoric, my feeling is that we should not be too harsh when judging other people’s shortcomings, and it’s only fair to take into account the social assumptions surrounding them. I’m pretty sure there are ways in which I’m biased that I’m not even aware of, but someone in the future or someone from a different background might perceive it. Anyway, thanks much for your comments!
But fantasy is fantasy! In our world, we are bound by rules of biology and sociology. Who's to say that in the fantasy world you're watching/reading, which has a human-adjacent setting, that they are bound by these same rules? Is it not possible that their world has gods, and those gods designed inhabitants with different features and different skin color who all live in same place ? Fantasy can be medieval and diverse !
I love your videos, but I find your narrative to be very condescending on multiple levels. At the end of your video you mention that you will "continue to read your favorite white male authors, despite their possible shortcomings when it comes to race and gender". That doesn't make sense, they have the same amount of 'shortcomings' as anyone. A female doesn't understand being a male anymore than a male understands a female, and same goes for different races. I feel like this narrative that white men need to just shut up and not say anything is very dangerous. No race or gender should be subjected to that kind of treatment. We can all learn from each other. Also, you mention listening to women and people of color. Well my girlfriend of four years is a black female, and her whole family is black. What they tell me is its extremely condescending for people to act like they have to instruct other people to listen to them, or give them a chance, because of the color of their skin. All they want is to be treated equally, which they feel they have been their whole lives. They frequently bring up that the only time when they feel their race is an issue is when people talk down to them by assuming they are given less of a chance or assume they need extra help because they are black. They hate when people of other races feel the need to be their voice, as if they couldn't speak for themselves.
Thanks for your perspective on this, Andrew! I certainly don’t intend or want to sound condescending to anyone. I would never ask anyone to “speak for” their race, which I agree would be condescending. However, if someone from a background different from mine should wish to share their perspective, I would hope to learn from that person. Finally, I don’t think I said that white males shouldn’t get to speak. That would be hypocritical of me since I am one. I’m happy to listen to white males who offer their perspectives respectfully and sincerely, such as you have done (I’m assuming you’re a white male, but correct me if I’m wrong). Personally, however, I do think that, since white men have wielded the majority of power for a long time, it wouldn’t hurt us to listen to other perspectives and learn from them. Thanks again for sharing your reactions, which I appreciate!
Actually, I think women have a better grasp on good male characters because they have consumed media since infancy that has the male gaze. As far as it being insulting to listen to poc and women to weigh in on if something is sexist/racist, yeah sure it is. If you’re *asking* and putting the emotional labor on them. If they come to the discussion and *state* it is racist/sexist, that’s a different kettle of fish entirely.
Actually, if you listen to the quote from Tolkien’s letter, it seems he had Asians in mind. Or, at least Europeans’ historical stereotypes about Asians. I’ll repeat that I personally would not label Tolkien a racist. In the context of his time period, he was probably progressive in many ways and stood against the forms of racism that were obvious to him. But everyone has blind spots and prejudices. We are all in part products of our historical environment, and it’s not always easy to understand our assumptions that derive from it.
Philip, I am so impressed with how you discussed this topic. Thank you for offering such a sensitive, nuanced perspective with a gentle plea to fantasy readers. It looks like this was posted just a month before you first came on my radar, but I'm so grateful you addressed this. I also love the title "The Oliphant in the Room"! This could be another paper, by the way. You could probably just hire someone to dictate your RUclips videos and create a collection of essays. In suggesting that, I hope you realize I'm still encouraging to make brilliant videos! They are so meaningful and inspiring to me.
Thank you, Johanna! This was the hardest video to make in some ways, and in other ways I felt it was too important not to make. I know I've left out a lot of things when it comes to representation in fantasy, but I hope it's a conversation starter or a means of helping people to think about these issues in a respectful way. Thanks for the positive feedback, which means a ton to me!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I can understand what you mean about the need to expand and add more regarding representation in fantasy, but this was an excellent start. I haven't read through all the comments, but I wanted to add a positive voice here. I truly am impressed with what you started and the courage you had to admit ways your views (which are common misconceptions) have been challenged and changed. I also would like to think the same about Tolkien if he had lived long enough. This is an ever-evolving topic in that there is always so much to understand and learn, and I think that can be kind of frightening as it is sensitive. Thank you for making this in the first place, and your willingness to touch upon these things in our discussion!
I'm reading Malazan now (just finished Bonehunters last night), and one of my favorite things about it is the diversity of the cast. Many of my favorite characters are Dal Honese, described as having onyx colored skin. I feel like Erikson does a great job of painting a more or less egalitarian world where the color of someone's skin or their gender are the least important facts about them. We, in America, are by no means 'color-blind', but it is nice to see a world where that dream is realized!
zadig08 Beautifully said! I agree with you one hundred percent about the diversity and egalitarianism in Malazan. Thanks for the comment!
I agree. It is one of the series strengths. Erikson's work as an anthropologist must have come in handy.
That world existed a little more than 700 years ago. I will check out that book though, it sounds refreshing.
I think there was not a sexist or racist bone in Tolkien’s body. Fantasy is a genre often inspired by historical settings and, for me, it is primarily meant to be escapist and immersive. Therefore, I think it makes sense that races are less mixed in a fantastic setting than in a modern setting, in which we have all kinds of reasons and means to travel. This simply wouldn’t be the case in an older setting and credibility is vital for the sake of immersion.
Also, as a reader, you are expected to have a fair amount of imagination. As a white woman I have enjoyed fiction with all black male characters, with a male 12-year-old protagonist, even with a focus on elderly characters and in settings that I have no knowledge of or affinity with. I don’t mind at all, as long as the story is compelling. Also, I love writing the adventures of a male protagonist with my husband.
I feel like this society encourages people to feel victimized all the time. I read because I want to discover new worlds and new points of view, not to see the exact representation of myself in a story. If so, why bother reading? Art is the most individual expression of the most individual emotion. To bind it by rules is to destroy the artform in my opinion. And I think series like Rings of Power only prove that point. Belittling your audience with messages and lessons also means claiming a moral high ground. Some consider literature that does not aspire to educate unsocial. That is completely unjustified in my opinion. I think authors are perfectly inclined to restrict their mission to entertaining.
The art that we produce is the product of the society that we live in. Our ideas of normalcy are largely taught to us.
Wow this was such a great talk. Thank you for opening up the conversation in such a thoughtful manner. A couple of years ago, I started reading The Fifth Season without knowing any background about the story or author. I got the shock of my life when I realised that the characters were POC. I had conjured up at the beginning of the book an image of these characters and they were all white, and I also assumed the author was a white male. Even for someone like me who is a Person Of Colour, the effects of the history of systemic racism in the arts and literature has conditioned me to visualise from an assumption of 'white'. So books that portray diverse characters as the majority or the protagonists are so important. Because I don't want my daughters growing up like me, unconsciously believing that they could only ever be represented as a token or a bit part in any story. Thank you for the dialogue!
Sun and Mood Reads That’s a powerful story. I love The Fifth Season - first because it’s an awesome beginning to an amazing trilogy, and second because of all the things you mention. When I had recently started my channel, I did a review of The Broken Earth Trilogy with my older daughter, who identifies as a woman of color (my wife is South Asian). I introduced her to the trilogy, and it was so important to her for all the reasons you mentioned. One of the wonderful things about fantasy today is how diverse it’s becoming, which is really enriching the genre. Thanks so much for watching and for sharing your story. I’d love to watch you review The Broken Earth Trilogy!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh that's interesting! I'll have to check out you and daughter's review of Broken Earth. It is encouraging to know that diversity in fantasy is progressing! Hmm, I might work up the courage and review it myself! #babysteps🤔🤣 Thx
Such an important topic, and you handled it with great tact. I have at times been annoyed by the majority of fantasy heroes being white and often blue-eyed. It just struck me as unimaginative. That is not to say the books themselves are bad, just a tad unrealistic. To give an example, my grandfather was native American and yet I look almost nothing like him. It goes to show that we can never judge a person based on their skin or looks. I've always been quite baffled by any notion that all white people have had only white ancestors. This is also a massively inaccurate idea.
Alex85 Thank you! I tried my best since, as you say, the topic is so important. I completely agree with you about the falsity of the very notion of “racial purity”. It would be wonderful if we all recognized fellow human beings before we saw or even thought about race, but it’s a social construct that has great power over people’s perceptions. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
Which ones?
As my name suggests I would love to read a blue eyed hero, I read 16 fantasy books last year, none of these contained a blue eyed hero.
Kip from (lightbringer) might qualify, but he is persian looking.
Now I feel bad about liking him because now I know I should've cared about the color of his skin, as the new age fantasy fandom is suggesting...
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy you all should go into the history for a explanation. In humans history, peoold trusted the family, the ones that looked familiar, the clans, the people with the same culture, tue same Religion, it was unlikly that a trible of your own Kind atacks you, someone dou share the language and do on. But people that look different, talk another language, habe other believes, where a thrat. Viking vs franch. A facinating fact is, there are sientific proof of this: if you are only seeing your kin and then you see people of another race you are unable do differ between intivituals, they all look the same, it is a lerning proces for the brain, do see indivituals of another race, so there is a big history behind misdrusting other people, it was a nesesaty in our Evolution, something do unlern. That is importent do recognise. It is a complex topic, not just you are rasist, often there is a fear behind it, is it justified. I do not know every Story, of every Person. If a Juwe hates germans. If a roma hates for example Polen. A tiwanees japoanease. What do i know about the history? Rasism is bad, if someone has a Trauma, they need help, antagonising them helps noone. I hope i get the point acrosd
Agreed. And what's interesting about the "majority of fantasy heroes' appearance is - it's mainstream fantasy heroes. Fantasy itself has been spoken and written about all over the world with the descriptions/cultures of those characters being representative of their countries of origin. They simply didn't receive mainstream (European/American) exposure/acceptance.
The fact that Tolkien drew on the common European idea of a Central-Asian-looking enemy can be explained as a combination of the WWI meme "Germans are the new Huns" and the descriptions of Huns and Mongols in historical sources. The Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus described Huns in basically the same terms as in the quote you read. Tolkien must have been familiar with such texts.
Was it malicious intent? No. It was a deeply ingrained cultural meme, and hardly anyone at the time were wise enough to question it.
You are completely correct, I think. Another source for orcs is William Morris’ description of Huns in The Roots of the Mountains. Tolkien was a fan of Morris’ fantasies from the 1890s.
So basically what we are doing is drawing a comparison to a people we view in a negative light, for example the Germans, and saying their behaviour is similar to an Asian people. And that's considered the worse insult. Hmm it's still very problematic.
The Mongols or Huns didn't do anything different than say Julius Caesar or Alexander The Great.
Is there a different between the Huns crossing the Danube and the Hebrews crossing the river Jordan. Most whites just accept there is a huge difference and this I am sad to say is white privilege.
Underrated comment
I love Tolkien too (both The Hobbit and LOTR). I didn't take offense to the lack of female characters in his works, but I can understand why other women might. (Part of my perspective on this is because I recognize some of the foundation of LOTR is from Tolkien's experience in WWI, where there was a lack of female presence.) Like you, I hesitate to label anyone, and people are very complex. However, I agree with your thoughts on Tolkien's handling of racist characterizations in his works (and it is hard to hear when you admire someone so much). You handled this discussion really well.
Thank you! I completely agree with you that it’s hard to hear something less than admirable about someone you deeply admire. Tolkien is still my favorite author and likely always will be, but he was a human being - a very good one overall, I think - and as such was in part a product of his time, just like the rest of us. I deeply appreciate you taking the time to comment on this video!
No women in LOTR? What about Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn?
Thank you for making this video with touching sensitivity and humility. I was searching for discussions on this topic and there isn't much content out there that I could find, and even less so created by men - this makes your contribution all the more important!
I particularly appreciate your commentary on historical accuracy - agree there's a huge difference between a book with racist and sexist plots - albeit unintentional - and a book which seeks to portray sexism and racism within the plot.
To add an example to what you explained, violence against women is largely normalised and/or used as a plot device to explain women's transformation into "badass" characters - this is essentially glorifying suffering and pretty inaccurate if you read or listen to survivors testimonies. A book portraying sexism in contrast, would leave the reader feeling strongly uncomfortable with the violence and its normalisation by historically accurate ignorant/sexist characters. Example of a sexist portrayal (imo): The Winter King by Bernard Cornwell (although I find it undoubtedly well-written, every mention of a woman is as a man's property or the subject of abuse. In this book I felt desensitised to the abuse - it was not meant to shock me but to give me that impression of "historic accuracy" people bring up, and to define a "lead" female character). Example of a realistic portrayal of sexism: The Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb (women are also considered property/inferior in this world but this is denounced. In fact it might be portrayed too realistically for it left people traumatised and/or angry at the fact that such violence was not essential to the characters' journey. Personally I think that's the whole point: there is no point to abuse, it is damaging, it does not define a person and it should be shocking.)
Most importantly POC and women have existed since the beginning of humanity. Perhaps we should question why we don't often encounter them as well-developed protagonists, rather than deem this lack of portrayal as historically accurate. I personally think the answer lies less in individual writers' backgrounds than in our society's culture and perceptions of race and gender.
Only through questioning and challenging our biases will new stories with more diversity get written.
Thanks again for creating this space, I'm finding it enlightening to read other people's comments on this.
Thanks for your wonderful comments, which are valuable as they add some important insights to the conversation! Also, I appreciate the encouragement since this video has received some negative criticism. I’m fine with constructive criticism and respectful disagreement, but I’ve decided to block a few individuals who have used racist, sexist, and vulgar language in their comments. Anyway, I think you make an important distinction when you differentiate between books that portray misogyny without delving into its causes and consequences and books that portray it but do so in a manner that creates empathy or causes the reader to question the social structures that make such behavior acceptable in the minds of many. Also, I love Hobb’s Liveship Traders Trilogy and think it’s a perfect example of the latter. Thanks so much for watching and for your thoughts!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I hope these negative interactions never deter you! it is not just your content that is valuable but also the way in which you promote dialogue over debate. It's so exemplary in this increasingly polarised world! I sure will strive to emulate this in my own conversations :)
@@coraliemarti8506 Thank you for the kind words. You’re right about the distinction between dialogue, where we’re open to learning from each other, and debate, where we’re more interested in “winning” than in listening. I hope to engage in lots of dialogue on the channel, and I’ve already learned a lot from generous viewers like you. Thanks!
This was a really well-done video! Thanks for taking the time to do this. As a white author in the fantasy genre, as I grow older, I do my best to learn about my own privileges, and try to be more inclusive of other cultures. That's partially why I started traveling, and why I recommend doing such to other fantasy writers, because sometimes it's not enough to just do research or try and educate yourself. Really being in the environment opens your eyes so much, and I think this was a well-thought-out video here to move the conversation forward
Thank you! It’s a tough but important topic for our community to engage in. I love your advice about travel. I consider my years abroad to have been some of the most important in my life for what they taught me about other people and myself. Thanks for the positive feedback on this!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy You are most welcome! Love it when my watch later random shuffle lands me on one of yours haha
Great suggestion. Not only to immerse yourself in new cultures, but also to put yourself in the position of being a cultural outsider or racial minority.
Going through your backlog of vids and I really like this one I think u discuss these difficult things in a clear honest way, thanks Phillip
Thank you, Daniel! It was a tough one to make, but I think it’s an important topic to engage with. I appreciate your feedback!
Just wow. Indian here. Reading LOTR for the first time now. I didn't particularly get any racism from the 1st 2 books. But, while reading the Return of the King, I was raising my eyebrows a few times. I mean the East and the South are the enemies? The West are the heroes?
I just think that Tolkien, like you said, was a product of his times, albeit a more moral one. I don't think he was maliciously intent on being racist; was probably just ignorant about some parts of the world. And he's allowed to be that. He didn't have the internet like we do.
Anyway, this is the best video on this topic. I really do like LOTR and the world that Tolkien has created. Which is why I'm amazed with your points and nuance on this topic. You articulated everything very beautifully. Thanks Philip.
I agree with your assessment. Tolkien, I believe, was not at all maliciously racist, but all of us see the world through the lens our cultures and families give us. This comes with limitations that we can sometimes transcend with effort. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Absolutely. This brings to mind that quote, "A frog in a well doesn't know the ocean". It's the same for all of us. Unless we strive to take that leap out of our small worlds, we'd be walled in. And I do think Tolkien did that, within his capacity and context, although not perfectly.
@@moodymarauder Agreed! He definitely did. Also, as a Catholic in England in those days, he knew how it felt to be a minority, and I think that might have helped him to be empathetic.
That's a really interesting topic to discuss. If I may join...
A couple of years ago I read an opinion of African Nobel Prize Laureate in literature (or just a famous African writer, I don't remember at this poin) who called "The Hearth of Darkness" a racist and harmful book. From a modern-day perspective, I have to agree. I remember how Conrad depicted black people as an undifferentiated savage mob. That doesn't change the fact that "The Heart of Darkness" was a milestone in beating racism and helped to liberate people in Congo. I wouldn't be surprised if Conrad was transported to the modern day the progressives of our times would terrify him. That doesn't make him a bad person. He was just a man of his time.
The same goes for Tolkien - he was just a man of his times and for his times he was a pretty decent person. That doesn't mean that we should ignore the flaws in his writing.
I also saw in several online discussions an argument that certain fantasy writer is sexist just because they included sexism in their fictional world while they could've chosen not to. I disagree with it. If we strip fantasy worlds of all the negative phenomena of our world like racism, sexism, and homophobia we end up with fairytale and utopia. The Broken Earth trilogy had it all and it was a great meditation on the problem of discrimination. The clue is to do something substantial with those problems when the writer decides to incorporate them into their world. At the same time, I really liked that in The Farseer trilogy, there was full gender equality in every profession. It was done very naturally, and I didn't notice it until 3rd book in the series.
Beautifully said, and I agree with each of your points! In its time, Heart of Darkness was radical for its critique of European colonialism. Today, parts of it are painful to read because they seem to unthinkingly perpetuate racist stereotypes. As you say, it’s most helpful to see it within the context of its time. I also agree that it’s still important to tackle themes like racism and sexism in literature, which means portraying painful things sometimes. Thank you for your input!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy if I may add something more.
Because of those reasons, I'm rather against of recent trend of correcting books to be more inclusive. Obviously I have nothing against inclusivity I'm very much in favour of it.
My problem with correcting authors like Ronald Dahl or Ian Fleming is that for me it's nothing more than cynical cash grab. If publisher believes that Ronal Dahl books don't fit modern times, then they might as well stop publishing him entirely and promote new, more inclusive authors. Children literature ages extremely fast and even Harry Potter has some problems from modern day perspective (outside of controversy with J. K. Rowling).
And outdated fairly modern books can be great example for critical studies, to show how times have changed. I remember that in high school we were discussing during class antipolonism of Fyodor Dostoevsky (I'm from Poland). It was quite interesting to learn where it came from.
@@kdnu27 The primary motive in the case of Dahl and Fleming’s books is most likely financial.
The argument that there weren't POC in medieval Europe always puts me in mind of the Cards Against Humanity card "A fantastical kingdom with elves and dragons but no black people." which perfectly captures the absurdity of the argument.
Loved the video.
Thanks so much! I hadn’t heard of the Cards Against Humanity, but that sums it up effectively. I really appreciate the supportive comment!
And here, too, why does the fantasy have to be in medieval Europe? Why not in Africa? Like... Zimbabwes are hella cool.
Well, considering medieval Europe was predominantly consisting of….Europeans, it makes complete sense that the vast majority of the population was white and not a whole lot of POC’s.
Not to say you can’t do a fantasy story set in an African inspired setting - I’d love to read all about that! Evan Winter’s Burning Series apparently covers this exact kind of setting, and I’m anxiously waiting to read it.
Of course not all fantasy has to be medieval European inspired, but there is not a problem with a fantasy story if it happens to be one either. And it’s especially not egregious or problematic or “absurd” for a story with these heavy medieval EUROPEAN (meaning WHITE) inspirations and undertones to feature mainly white characters. I mean, it would be essentially the same thing if white people inserted themselves in a clearly African-inspired story (such as the Burning series which I mentioned previously and the Broken Earth trilogy by N.K. Jemisin) or an Asian-inspired story (such as the Poppy War by R.F. Kuang, or the Greenbone Saga by Fonda Lee, or Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang, or the entirety of manga and anime).
@@grimdarkwrld the point you're missing is a simple one: History is a lot, and by that I mean A LOT, more diverse than what your History book tells you. Thanks to the Roman Empire you had Africans in England before the time of Christ. If it "makes sense" to you that a medieval European setting has no black or brown people in it, then the only conclusion I can draw is that you haven't studied much real history.
@@theawesome925 I’m not saying that medieval Europe had no black or brown people. I’m just saying the overwhelming majority of European history is comprised of European people (meaning white people). Just like how the majority of African history is comprised of African people, the majority of Asian history is comprised of Asian people, etc.
Maybe before you criticize me and make claims that I said something which I clearly didn’t, how about you reread the comment.
This is the best analysis on the topic on RUclips. I agree, Tolkien for his time would have been considered progressive for his time, however his work is full of some ethnocentric tropes that were very widely held of his day. If you accept the philosophy of Middle earth, you accept that everything good comes out of the West. The further East you go the worse it is in terms of being susceptible to evil influences. A theme in Tolkin work is free will, it sets the humans apart from the other races, and this free will. But the humans that have freewill are the euro centric ones. Humans of the West align more to the one creator god and are wise enough to accept the Elves teaching.
The humans of the East align more to Sauron and are happy to accept his tyranny, and just so happen to be races that look African, Persian, or Asian.
To me this philosophy is racist, and harks back to notions of the white man's burden, granted Tolkin was not aware what he was doing when using these racist tropes.
Thanks, Jack. I think it’s important to try to understand people, including ourselves, as in part products of their time and culture. Tolkien was a genius, I think, and an empathetic person, but even he likely did not see behind some of the tropes he used that many of us today recognize as Eurocentric or even racist. As I say in the video, that doesn’t mean I personally would label Tolkien a racist. On the contrary, in the context of his time and place, he was progressive. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think I made it clear I didn't think Tolkin was a racist, but he nevertheless has racist tropes present in his work. Your reply seems to suggest I should understand the man as a product of his times and I felt I did so.
In any case to remove doubt on my position. Tolkins writings are fantastic, and he was progressive for his time. Was he able to remove himself from tropes that we would consider today as problematic, unfortunately not. It's just a case of being aware they are there, and as you suggest, it gives us a window into how English men saw their place in the world at a specific time.
@@jackrussell3084 Understood, Jack. I was agreeing with you, and you made your position very clear. Thanks again!
Representation is very important for all minorities
Very true, and I didn’t even begin to address representation in fantasy for many groups, so I’m glad you pointed this out.
Some folks in the comments are criticizing stories where an attempt to include diverse characters comes off as clumsy or forced. Criticizing bad writing, or token characters is fine. Holding these bad stories up as a reason not to write inclusive stories is not. Yes, it's hard to write characters who are different from yourself, but that is what good authors do.
Beautifully said, Grutar! Tokenism is not cool, but, as you point out, let’s not pretend that all attempts at inclusivity are token. In my experience, the best authors are excellent at writing characters different from themselves - another thing you’re right about. Thanks for the insightful comment!
It could be true, but I don't care, don't care at all. If you think fantasy books are racist, then don't read them. Its not like government policies and laws are based on fantasy books.
So true. Art is subjective and individual. When we start to adapt our most individual expression to rules and politics, it dies.
I really enjoyed this. At first I thought I already knew everything about this but the points you made were new and fresh and made me think about current contempoary authors. I think Joe Abercrombie strikes the perfect balance of showing misogny whilst writing REALLY strong female characters such as in Age of Madness. I do find Erikson lacks in the female department and he does glorify misogny (at least in my eyes).
I do think George RR Martin in some ways hits the perfect balance of strong female characters like Joe but his take on misogny can be seen as very sexist but at the time of my reading I thought it was a perfect depiction of medevial times (at least the kind I was believed to be accurate). Now I think I can understand why people, especially women, see George's potrayal of women especially Dany and those who are blantatly sexualised as sexist.
You make a great point about Abercrombie’s female characters in Age of Madness, and that’s one of the reasons I love it so much so far. The thing that can be hard to evaluate , I think, is whether something terrible that happens to a female character is misogynist or is an exploration of misogyny. A big indicator is whether the author follows up on the terrible event. Does the author give the woman’s perspective? Does the author portray the repercussions for everyone involved? My take is that Erikson does well in this regard. Some horrible things happen to some female characters in Malazan, but usually Erikson follows up on those incidents in a way that engages me in the big issues but also makes me feel for the woman. At least that’s my experience. That said, treatment of female characters is something most of us need to think and learn about, and I bet even Erikson himself would agree that he could handle certain scenes better today than twenty years ago. Thanks for your thoughts!
Do you think the depiction of the easterlings in the movie was racist? I don’t know how they were depicted in the books, so maybe you could shed some light on that for me.
Excellent question. I’ve read a couple articles that focus on the question of racism in the films and talked to a few people about it as well. Some people say the Easterlings in the film, who are not portrayed with any depth (nor are they in the books), are reminiscent of people from the Middle East, and that they appear as stereotypical baddies in contrast with the white, essentially “good” cultures. Some say the films are even worse because they were released starting in 2000 or so, whereas the books were published in the 1950s, when fewer people questioned racist and colonialist portrayals. Faramir has his “They’re just like us” moment, so you could argue that Jackson showed awareness of the impression his Easterlings might make. You’ll probably notice that Jackson might have responded to racial critiques of his LOTR films by diversifying things a little in his Hobbit films (the people of Laketown are racially diverse, and the orcs have a wider array of skin tones). Personally, I don’t think your question should be answered with a simple yes or no. It’s complex, and while I consider myself a fan of the books and the films, I’m open to hearing those criticisms of them.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy good to know, thank you.
@@arman_1024 My pleasure, Arman.
That's a very interesting video and discussion! So, as you now know, I've been reading LOTR. Since I've watched the movies first, I was really happy when we got to "meet" Éowyn in Two Towers, because she was one of my favourite characters. But as I understand it, Tolkien took another direction. I don't hate the book by any means, I have issues with it and I was hoping for Return of the King to resolve them (we'll see, but I'm still keeping an open mind, I know it's been published in a different time and place).
It's interesting because, to me, the orcs are not human at all (even though they have speech) they're merely instruments in the hand of Sauron (that's even how Gollum describe them if I'm not mistaken). They don't seem to have a choice, like if they were designed by an evil being to do its biddings (the way Saruman has an army of half-orcs).
I have read another Fantasy series (Emerald Knights by Anne Robillard) with a similar trope: these humanoid insects are just evil killing machines working for their master.
If we're in a made-up world, these things can exist without having to mirror the politics of our world. I agree that, sometimes, the author does use his work as a social critics of some sort, but unless it's quite explicit, we can be easily biased by our own preconceived ideas of how things should look like... Sometimes it's in the way something's written, but even when there's no explicit condamnation of some kind of oppression, it doesn't mean the author's intention is to depict them as moral. That's a big judgement to make.
Recently, I've watched a video of a young woman talking about what turned her off in the Mistborn trilogy (which I've never read). She was talking about how the author was pretty overtly trying to shove his religion (mormonism) down your throat in the third book. Since I do know mormon beliefs, what she said made sense to me (I don't want to spoil things, but, for example, mormons believe that men will become gods on their own "planet"), but others didn't feel this way or read it this way at all (maybe partly for lack of knowledge, and partly because they didn't personalize what they were reading). Like her, I'm usually looking at the author's message when I'm reading their work, so I might have been offended as well. Every reader has a different baggage and will interpret things differently, it doesn't mean they're always right. Unless they have extended proof of what they're saying, I think they should be careful with the accusations they make. I tend, for personal reasons, to avoid Fantasy books in which characters become gods or - oh plot twist - are half-gods. It just doesn't appeal to me at all, and that's ok.
Very well said! You’re absolutely right that we all bring our own baggage and experience to every book we read. I read Mistborn and never made that connection, but I know about Mormonism only superficially. As I said in the video, I don’t like labeling people with loaded words unless an individual is clearly identifying with a hateful ideology. Tolkien was far from that. He was actually a good human being, as far as I can tell, and he clearly opposed the extreme forms of racism in his day. I suppose we are all in part products of our time and our surroundings, and we share limitations on our perceptions with those we know best. That being said, I’m doing my best to learn from people whose experiences allow them to more clearly see things that I might miss. This is a strength of diversity, I think - there’s so much we can learn from each other. Thanks for watching and commenting!
while i did not enjoy mistborn (found the characters boring) i do know BS is mormon but the only influence his religion has on the books is the lack of swearing or sex. which sucks because those things make life so much fun lol
Very admirable of you to take on this topic. Much of the fantasy of yesteryear is clearly racist in that the "baddies" had coloring and features of those who were discriminated against and/or were hated in "the real world". Dark/sallow/swarthy skin, slanted eyes, etc. There was intentionality there which brought the stereotypes of the real world into the fantasy realm, thereby perpetuating it and spreading its audience. That's the primary reason I refused to read H.P. Lovecraft - I learned he was an unrepentent racist. That said, I'd read all of Robert E. Howard's works (who has never gotten his proper recognition) before I learned of his own racist leanings which he also perpetuated to varying degrees of severity in his work. The books aren't going anywhere and maintain the racist utopias some love in pristine condition. Studios however, know something the authors didn't/don't - POC love fantasy and are just as rabid a fanbase as white readers. As a result, they have a greater feeling of responsibility to make the adaptations as representative of the viewership as is reasonably possible.
The modern day racial issue in fantasy are not just with adaptations but also the reception of alternative fantasy worlds from authors of color. I routinely observe a greater level of criticality from reviewers/booktubers who appear to have those leanings. I don't believe it's necessarily intentional either but, when the best a reviewer can give is, "I don't know why I didn't like this I just didn't. I don't really understand all the fanfare this book is getting. The prose is just okay, I mean, it's not on Josiah Bancroft or Steven Erikson level" and on and on with no specifics regarding what the author actually did wrong/poorly. Growing up I read everything which overwhelmingly consisted of 99% stories about non-POCs because that's what was available. As a result, I'm fully open to reading those stories unbiased and ready to fully express my fandom, by and large that pendulum doesn't swing back the other way by a lot of readers for the works of POC.
Beautifully said, Chris! One thing that I believe with all my heart is that fantasy is so much richer and more interesting today because of its increasing diversity, meaning we are so fortunate that publishers have become more receptive than they were in the past towards authors from demographics that have been drastically underrepresented. I’m excited for the genre because of this increasing receptivity, though some of the reactions to those adaptations indicate we have a long way to go in terms of acceptance of diversity in fantasy. I deeply appreciate your insights and thoughts in your comments. Thank you!
I don't think its bold to say that most fantasy readers didn't have a ton of interactions with girls growing up, which probably leads to the one dimensional approach to women in a lot of fantasy. As far as racism, again i think a lot of fantasy readers are white suburban kids who likewise don't have a ton of exposure to other cultures. So I don't think it's malicious most of the time, just ignorance.
Nick Wurthmann I think you’re quite right. Most of the time, when people step on other people’s toes, it’s probably not from malice but from ignorance. I’ve certainly done it. I hope to learn from such experiences to become less ignorant. Like everyone else, I’m a work in progress. Thanks for the comment!
John Actually, we agree on that. As I say in the video, fantasy is a genre (not a person) that is increasingly diverse and is read by people who are no more racist or sexist than most other groups of people.
What are you talking about? Does public school not count?
See, but there are tons of black and woman authors who are never given opportunities to publish because of attitudes like this:
I just recently found your channel and love your enthusiasm and thoughtfulness, especially on a difficult/sensitive topic like this. I doubt you'll see this given how old the video is, but I'd love to see a follow up video about books that try to reverse or change genders roles. Mostly I'm thinking of Wheel of Time, but Stormlight Archive also has some of it. I personally can't decide if it is interesting, or off-putting (I think I lean toward the latter). I love how Robert Jordan creates a range of cultures from patriarchal to matriarchal and it's interesting to watch the POV characters navigate that, but I can't quite get over how certain characters treat others poorly based solely on their gender. I don't have much interest in reading about women who have the stereotypical traits of dominant men in Western culture, I'd rather read about a more egalitarian or gender-neutral culture.
Thank you, Aidan! I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement, especially given the sensitivity of the topic. And that’s an excellent idea to do a follow up! It would be good to give some positive and affirming examples in fantasy, of which there are many. Also, great thoughts on WoT. Thanks so much!
It's a complicated subject for sure.
Has fantasy been racist? Absolutely it has. Particularly in the pulps you'll find some stuff that'll make you cringe today, even from the good pulp writers like Robert E. Howard. Even Tolkien had some racial stuff in Lord of The Rings, though I'm not sure if that was conscious on his part since he was a pretty vocal anti-racist (at least for the time) and anti-Nazi (which you bring up in the video.) I am generally uncomfortable with judging people who lived in the past, because I don't know if it's up to us to really judge them based on our changed values. But I do think these topics should be talked about, a lot of my objections when it comes to this topic is how they're being discussed.
I know I'm a bit late on this, but great video. You handled the topic very well, as much as you could for such a touchy subject.
Thank you, Britton!
thank you for acknowledging even a little bit of racism.
It’s definitely there, especially - but not exclusively - in older fantasy. I think acknowledging that fact is a baby step toward improving, but, as you might see in many of the comments, some people resist even that acknowledgment. A few seem to think no one should even bring up the subject.
On the topic of "historical accuracy" I would say, for me, it's less about being accurate to the time period that the setting is inspired by and more just good worldbuilding.
For example, there were good reasons that Europe had very, very few black or asian people in it for the majority of its history. Travel was very difficult (among other reasons).
For me, you'd need some sort of explanation for why your setting is racially diverse. Maybe a power like the Roman Empire has risen up and among its territories are multiple different ethnic groups. Maybe superior modes of transport are available in this world.
If its something like The Witcher tv show, though, where there is no explanation, it kind of breaks my immersion.
Personable Person Well said, and fair enough. I agree that world building should feel convincing, and you have a point about the relative homogeneity of medieval-like societies due to their isolation and lack of technology, especially in the realm of transportation. Of course, not all fantasy needs to be medieval, and, as you say, there can be reasons for diversity in “older” societies, such as commerce and empire. Thanks for the informed comment!
You are limiting your understanding of what can constitute a fantasy world though. The reasons we might expect characters with diverse characteristics to not be around one another in certain societies is because in our world, we are bound by rules of biology and sociology. Who's to say that in the fantasy world you're watching/reading, which has a human-adjacent setting, that they are bound by these same rules? Is it not possible that their world has gods, and those gods designed inhabitants with different features from the get go (sans evolutionary drift)? Or is it not possible that they have genetic mutations at much higher rates? I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but at the same time I always wonder how that aspect is the one people find unimmersive, rather than the fact that you frequently find yourself in the body of a protagonist who is COINCIDENTALLY white and male and able, in a world where literally anything is possible.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 I think I'd have to read that in a story before I'm able to decide whether that's acceptable.
It doesn't sound logical (and I like things to be logical) but I'm trying to keep an open mind.
As for the immersion... What rule of logic does following the perspective of a white, able male a lot break?
I mean, that's not even a problem (if it is a problem at all) with the story, it's a problem with the culture *surrounding* the story - it exists on a meta-level. It has nothing to do with the story itself.
Personable Person I get what you’re saying but theres intrinsic logic and extrinsic logic. What you’re saying is that you want the fantasy world to match your extrinsic logic of how our world may have worked in medieval times. What I’m saying is that it’s a fantasy world even if it’s based on medieval settings, so the logic of the world only has to make sense intrinsically. I know your issue is with them not explaining their intrinsic logic, but I’m just saying if we can believe this world has magic, we can believe that it has natural diversity. In terms of the white straight man thing, it’s not that it’s a problem in and of itself, it’s that contextually, when 80% of fantasy follows the same type of protagonist, it begins to hinder your immersion to the story because it feels like it isn’t organic. If entire alternative universes out there exist why are we always finding the ones where a white straight guy is the protagonist
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 Just to weigh in here a little, I think you expressed very well (probably better than I did) one point I was trying to make in the video. I do feel there's room for fantasies that take a more "historical" view of world building, though "historically inspired" is perhaps closer to the mark. However, I have heard people (especially in the past) disparage fantasy that does not conform to their notions of historicity because it contains diversity, and I think such disparagement is a mistake. As you point out, fantasy is not bound by the rules and events that influenced history (which is also very much a discipline that is revised all the time).
You are growing your channel quite nicely! Hope this coronavirus thing blows over and CCM opens
Thanks, Tyler! I hope the same!
Great video on a difficult subject, but one that needs addressing, as you said. It is always hard to see less than stellar aspects of favourite authors. They fought or were indeed more modern than their counterparts and yet still had some prejudices. Brontë fighting for women but at the detriment of women of colour; Dorothy L. Sayers again for women, showing veterans’ PTSD before it was recognised, but showing too some unsavoury antisemitism. Agatha Christie for instance portrayed lgbt+ characters in a positive light, was decades ahead, but still fell short sometimes. John Wyndham is another you can see aspiring for more but falling short due to his culture/society. It kills me and yet they paved the way for betterment.
I read LOTR in my mid 20s (3x), loved it, while still pondering about the paucity of women characters, although “I am no man!” from Éowyn will stay with me for ever😊
I love specfic because it pushes boundaries, asks difficult questions, and entertains. Come to think of it, Romance has been fighting too.
Thank you for this.
Thanks so much for your insightful comments here. Those are excellent examples of authors who were very ahead of their time in some respects and products of their time in other respects. It’s important, I think, to recognize with a dose of humility that we all have worldviews that emerge in part from our cultural surroundings even as we struggle to create a better world. All the best!
I feel like the real issue isn't that Fantasy (writ-large) is a sexist/racist genre, but rather that the fantasies or fantastical elements in books that have been elevated by society are racist and sexist. And then you have a self-perpetuating cycle of new fantasy that pays homage to the old by recycling tropes that are removed from their original context of colonialism etc, to where you end up with these laundered projections of sexism and racism/orientalism and transphobia in a series as seemingly benign as Harry Potter. My argument that these issues are worth considering, acknowledging that writers in this day and age might be adopting without malicious intent, is that beyond just being bad writing to rely so much on readers assumptions of your characters/world it is also unknowingly propping up existing systems of oppression by association. Tell me again why all the elves in every mainstreamed fantasy setting have aryan features... Slim noses, light features, tall but not too tall, skinny but not gaunt, patient, educated, compassionate: in short, white and virtuous. Is there something inherent to the word Orc that prevents them from being calm and educated? That marks their culture and traditions as "wild" and militant? No, it isnt the word orc that ascribes unvirtue to the race, its their physical depiction. There is so much great fantasy out there, but so long as all the most popular fantasy (World of Warcraft, Magic the Gathering, Harry Potter, Star Wars) leans on these tropes, worlds like MBoF's and Ursula Le Guin's will be aberrant
You express yourself very eloquently here, and I appreciate your analysis. I totally agree with you that these issues are not only worth considering, but that we have an obligation to consider them. I also agree with you that most authors who use tropes that have roots in racism and colonialism are likely not doing so with any malicious intent or even awareness. Speaking for myself, I have a lot of learning to do, and it starts with willingness to listen and become more aware. Thank you so much for all of your comments on this -- they have been instructive for me.
Thank you for this important and nuanced video! I look forward to, hopefully, in future years, seeing yet more diversity in the genre. (I had to research the Oliphant reference! 😂)
Thank you, Heather. It’s a topic that isn’t necessarily easy to discuss in a calm and empathetic manner, but it’s too important not to talk about. I believe that fantasy is becoming richer than ever with so many new voices offering such wonderful stories.
My immediate knee-jerk reaction is No, that question and someone who holds that opinion is generalizing ! Which is exactly the problem with racism and sexism.
Of course, the reality is more nuanced. For decades most mass market novels were written by white men, for white men, featuring Euro-centric cultures with white men as the heroes. We've all seen the chainmail bikinis.
So while the genre certainly is not racist/sexist.. what was readily available definitely was influenced by it.
Even without malicious intent - people write what they know, publishers publish what they know sells.
We also have to consider the scale of things when writing fantasy. Most often, authors try to think up new worlds, new cultures. And try to make them believable. Adding in extra cultures for the sake of diversity is _tough_. Erikson's Malazan is a perfect example - wonderfully done. But it took 10 massive books written by a professional anthropologist to do it, with more books from a second anthropologist adding on to it. Not the sort of stuff anyone wants to or could write, or read.
Personally, I love reading about different cultures, and the market for them has been steadily growing over the last three or four decades. Strong female characters can also be great, and have been around since forever - but they, too, have grown in prominence during these decades.
Lots more to be said - and listened to - about this, but I seriously believe fantasy was ahead of the curve when it comes to racism and sexism. Long before SJWs became a hype in recent years.
Rob Paul I deeply appreciate your thoughtful and nuanced response here. Erikson is a good example of a writer who consciously chose to portray diverse cultures and a world where equality among genders is the norm (correct me if I’m wrong). There’s so much potential in fantasy to question the status quo, and that potential has begun to be realized in the last twenty or thirty years more than ever before. I’m personally thankful that the genre is growing, with more readers and writers of all sorts. It’s a wonderful time to be reading fantasy!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
Thank you 😊 and I'm also very grateful the genre is growing in all kinds of interesting directions!
Erikson certainly did something special when it comes to gender, but also culture. Freaking spectacular overall, but I'm biased 😅
The world of Malazan simply doesn't place one gender above the other but has a reason for it, the most fantasy central trope ever. Magic.
Both genders have pretty equal chances of being Talents, and magic trumps physical strength - hence equal opportunity.
So while many cultures still have stereotypical gender roles, in the books we see both male and female wizards, priests, spies, soldiers, leaders up to and including gods.
For the Malazan army, who form a huge part of the cast, gender is just a non issue. As is sexual preference for that matter.
Individual strength or weakness is shown all around.
The many cultures on display likewise are shown to have depth, strengths and flaws, wether they be tribal or empirical, hunter-gatherers or capitalist, matriarchal or patriarchal.
Rob Paul That was definitely my impression, and I’m happy to have you confirm it. Thanks!
So what if they were white? Doesn't mean ethnicities can't enjoy the stories. There has never been a label that said these can only be read by white people.
a very thoughtful and nuanced analysis. proud of you!
Thank you! So glad you watched!
Just found your channel and I must say your position is far more nuanced and reasoned than many people on both side of the argument.
I'm a very progressive person and I see many people on my side who don't consider the whole context of LOTR and Tolkien in general (about his racist tendancies in descriptions, but generally on the opposite, progressive political stance on subject regarding racism (condemnation of appartheid wich, for the record, only ended in 1996, 23 years after Tolkien's death, so he definitely was progressive for his time)
But I'm also a LOTR fan and I see many people on that other side being defensive of Tolkien to the point of answering the pertinent issues brought up by progressive with contempt and almost falling in the "being racist/sexist to own the woke" rabbit hole.
You adressed everything with great care and tact and I applaud your way of handling the subject.
Thanks so much! It means a lot to me to read your comment. I was trying my best to reach for nuance and reason, and though I certainly have my biases, I hope I got somewhere close. Anyway, you perfectly expressed in your comment what I was trying to convey, so that makes me happy. Much appreciated!
Great nuanced video. I will say that I think there is room for homogeneous stories in fantasy worlds both based on our real past and in high fantasy.
Thank you! I agree with you that there is room for homogeneous fantasies that take a "historical" approach to their world building. In fact, some of my favorites are in that category. That said, I've noticed in the past that some people (probably very few these days) object to or disparage fantasy that doesn't conform to their notions of historicity (and I confess I might have had tendencies in that direction myself a couple decades ago), and that seems not only wrong but sort of silly to me now. Thanks for your comment -- much appreciated!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I agree 💯. A lot of complaints like that I think are just thinly veiled -isms
I found your video very balanced and open minded, which I appreciate. I agree with you: Just because our real world is racist, sexist, etc., doesn't mean fantasy books (usually set in something similar to the Middle Ages, the past, where racism and sexism were notorious) should portray the world in those books that way. Fantasy should imagine different possible worlds, different to ours (present or past).
This particular point is bugging me while reading ACOTAR (I'm on my 2nd book). I find it reproduces sexist jokes and male-oriented (many references to d¡ck jokes, everything centered on d¡cks). I'm surprised because the author is a woman and from what I understood, her books should be feminist, but I don't see that and those things bother me. I wish she would have imagined a world that is different, not so reliant on the male-centered sex view. And I say this without being opposed to sex at all, not coming from a religious place either (I'm not religious), and not even coming from an LBGTI+ perspective. I would like to know your opinion on this if you want to comment.
Thank you for your comment! I should begin my reply by saying I have not read ACOTAR, so my opinion is limited in its usefulness in this specific case. In general, I think it's fine for a fantasy author to portray a patriarchal world as long as it's not glorified (which I find repugnant) and the consequences of that patriarchy are clear. It's painful to read, but there is value in exploring such pain. At the same time, I strongly support authors who decide to portray a world without patriarchy, and I think those who criticize an author for that specific reason are missing a big part of the point of fantasy, which is a genre that encourage the imagination, sometimes pointing to that which might be rather than that which is. All the best!
ACOTAR is smut. You are reading smut. There is a reason it's no longer in YA.
I really enjoyed your video! I have really enjoyed the fantasy genre for many years now (Tolkien and others as well), and I understand how people can criticize it for what it does and doesn't overtly present, but I still don't understand the concept of holding authors from 70 years ago to the cultural standards of today. I mean, suppose that the elves in Tolkien's works were all dark skinned females and not light skinned males. I'd imagine our current cultural climate to still have similar criticisms of his works for not including other "insert race/gender/sexual preference here". My point is that from our perspective here in the future it is easy to criticize the work of older authors and negatively label them or their works because of their portrayal or lack of representation of any group of people. That to me is a travesty for people like Tolkien.
Thank you, Corey! I think you put it well. While I believe it’s important to examine the works of the past and be honest about them (recognizing that we’re judging them from our own cultural lens), I also think it can be a distortion to hang a label like “racist” on someone when we find a racist trope present in their writing, sort of like using a hammer when tweezers would work better. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy good point!
I was putting off watching this video for awhile since most of the conversations that I’ve had on this subject have been rather unpleasant. I think you did a great job at discussing the subject however. And a great job at promoting civil discussion. I do disagree somewhat with your “it’s fantasy so it’s ok” argument since I always think fantasy should be as realistic as possible excluding the fantasy elements (like dragons). On another note the show Attack on Titan does an excellent job at displaying racism and working it into the story without glorifying it. Cheers!
The Serpent Thank you! Among the ones I’ve done so far, this was probably the hardest video to make. In light of recent events, I’m actually glad I made this video, and I hope I didn’t botch anything too much. Fantasy is too important to me to be silent on this question, and I do believe the genre has become enriched by the diversity of the last 30 years or so. As I said in the video, fantasy is uniquely suited to imagine other worlds that might lead us to question our own. Thanks so much for watching and commenting- as always, I value your thoughts!
Philip Chase it’s good to see how connected you are with the community you’ve been creating. I agree that diversity (as long as it’s not forced and preachy) is absolutely a good thing. I’m curious, have you read the Rage of Dragons by Evan Winter? It’s a gladiatorial fantasy novel by a African author with a lot of African cultures in it. It was fantastic
The Serpent I’ve only recently heard about Rage of Dragons. I’ll look into it, but it’s likely I’ll buy it the next time I buy some books. Your endorsement of it definitely encourages me to do so. Thanks!
Philip Chase I’d love to see you review it
I'm definitely late to this video, but what a great discussion! 🙌 For me, I love books like the Broken earth trilogy and a lot of modern fantasy is so diverse and full of new perspectives. But other modern writers, I have such a hard time understanding why they still go back to boring tropes. For example, I could not get into the Kingkiller chronicles because of his potrayl of women. Even though I loved the writing and totally understand why people praise the books, it was just such a hinder for me. Especially the character Denna was so one dimensional and tropy & in the Wise man's fear & the Felurian scene...! It took me out of the story completely and I feel that Rothfuss really need to consider how he write women characters overall. I think it's really disappointing when modern writers still cling on to old ideas of how to write women, etc.. That's a dealbreaker for me! But as I said, so many other authors are really breaking new grund in the fantasy genre & I love to see it! 😉 Excellent video!
Thanks so much! I agree with you about the continuing issues with the portrayal of women that we see with some modern authors. Though I admire much about The Name of the Wind, I actually agree with you about the portrayal of women being a serious weakness, and that’s actually something my students and I have specifically discussed in my Fantasy Novels course. Fortunately, more and more authors are freeing themselves from such harmful tropes as the genre becomes more diverse. I appreciate your supportive comments immensely- thanks again!
Women characters are lacking from both women and men authors. Name of the wind is a good example, and then theres women authors writing blank slates like twilight and city of bones going after toxic men.
@@ninjablack4347 Absolutely correct! Men aren’t the only ones who perpetuate harmful stereotypes. That’s an important point, for sure.
Very interesting analysis. Although I admit not being a fantasy lover. I like your videos Pro. Chase, because I like how you explain. It heps me as a non english speaking native to learn some more, your tone and word usage helps me... thank you 😀
paula mucinga I’m happy you’re watching! Thank you, and I appreciate your comments too!
Awesome video! Particularly relevant now with the Lord of the Rings show coming out soon and debates about the casting choices there.
Personally I’d rather just read/see new SFF inspired by non-medieval European cultures than going back and injecting diversity where there in truth wasn’t any. Poppy Wars is high on my TBR for this year and I’ll make a point to seek out others. Would love some recommendations here if you have any. I’m just over a year into fantasy now so it’s been mostly the traditional, classics for me so far.
Thanks, Mitch! I liked The Poppy War Trilogy, though I thought there was some narrative klunkiness. Definitely worth checking out. Abby Salter just made a helpful video on non-Western fantasies, and I highly recommend you check it out. Her list has a lot of Asian inspired series on it. You’ll find her channel by searching for her name. Personally, I hope to read The Green Bone Saga this year since I’ve been hearing great things about it. Happy reading!
About historical accuracy... I don't know. I mean... huh.
Suppose that Charles Saunders were still alive and that he wrote another Imaro novel. Now, Imaro is set in a fantasy version of Africa, like Conan is set in a fantasy version of Europe. There aren't going to be a lot of white guys, Asian guys, Native Americans, Maori, etc. in this Imaro novel. It's Africa, sub-Saharan Africa. There's more likely to be Wakyambi and other beings of African folklore.ӿ
But, of course, there's no reason a world with magic _couldn't_ have beyond-our-world levels of contact between cultures at a point corresponding to, IDK, the 1200s. One might almost expect the most powerful wizards or priests of such a world to know about each other. Maybe Merlin vacations in Hawaii, because he can teleport. ^_~
I don't really fret if the story has mostly or even all black, white, or whatever if the setting is one where that makes sense. But, I do like that there is fantasy being written which draws on geography, history, and folklore from all over the world. I'm fine with medieval European stuff, but it's very cool that that's no longer ALL that there is.
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ӿ Yes, I know that there is a white villain and an Asian martial artist in the second book. But they are very few and, of course, no match for Imaro, because he's the hero.
Thanks for the excellent comment, Salinor. I do think it’s cool to have some fantasy settings with cultures that are relatively isolated from other parts of the world, but also that fantasy settings with more diversity can be equally plausible. It all depends on how the author envisions the history of that world. Also, if I could teleport, I’d definitely vacation in Hawaii!
This was a good video and you handled it very well, but people throw about that "mongol-type" quote a lot when talking about Tolkien as some sort of gotcha that the orcs are clearly meant to be representative...and I just don't see it. It's certainly not a good quote by any stretch, but he said, "degraded and repulsive VERSIONS" (insuiating that the real life counter-parts are not degraded or repulsive) of "least lovely mongol-types" (least lovely implies that the majority are lovelier) . Tolkien, without a doubt, was unconsciously or otherwise echoing the worldview and times he lived in, and "straight white man'd" it as a result. But I don't see that quote as some kind of "aha!" moment without some other context, which we don't have.
I agree with you. It's painful for me to read the quote, but I think it would be unfair to read it in isolation, forgetting all the other things Tolkien said and did and forgetting that he, like all of us, was a product of his time. My only real point is that good people have blind spots and can be unaware of their own biases and prejudices. In regard to fantasy, I think a lot of us fans might not realize that some of the familiar tropes have roots in colonialism, racism, and sexism. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean we need to throw out those tropes entirely, but awareness of those roots is important, especially for modern fantasy writers who might wish to upend the tropes or appropriate them for new purposes. Thanks so much for your thoughtful response -- I appreciate it!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, I entirely agree with you. I hope my comment didn't come off like Tolkien shouldn't be criticized or viewed through this lens, or that he didn't certainly have some views that 2021 would not look upon fondly. You struck the appropriate balance here, I think, where you mentioned the quote but also talked about blind spots and the era etc. It just bothers me when people hold out that quote as a, "aha! proof of racism!" and I certainly wouldn't call it PROOF of anything. Always enjoy your thoughtful videos, Philip, keep em up!
@@readbykyle3082 Not at all, Kyle - your comment struck me as thoughtful and on point. In fact, I really appreciate the feedback - it can be a difficult topic to discuss, but I find nuanced responses like yours to be extremely helpful, so thanks again!
The issue with the question as you pose it is this: Fantasy isn't something that can be racist or sexist in and of itself. It is a genre built around one thing: creating a world that is unlike our own. And I think this video, as a result, misses the point by just a little bit.
The question that gets asked isn't so much, "Is fantasy on whole bigoted," but rather "Are these elements commonly found in fantasy bigoted?" And the answer is always, "it depends."
For example, at the time this video was made, the conversation HEAVILY circled around Dungeons & Dragons's orcs. And I don't think it is unfair to say that D&D, which was made by a self-proclaimed biological essentialist, has racist and sexist roots and many of the tropes Gygax employed were... let's just say "less than flattering."
And, yeah, a lot of D&D gets its roots from Tolkien (whom is the main focus of your video), but there's just something fundamentally different from between how AD&D handled races to how Tolkien handled them that just makes my hairs bristle. AD&D feels like Gygax read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit but none of Tolkien's other writings on his stories and Gygax just ran with how he interpreted them.
As for your commentary on the historical accuracy bit. 1000% what you said. Like, it's fine (in my opinion) to include overt racism and sexism in your works if the point is for your characters to try and fix the broken systems... but if you're just having racism and sexism and it's just there with no reason... I need to ask "Why?" If you're going to include themes that make your work less accessible to minorities, you need a good reason for it and "historical accuracy" is not it.
Great point about D&D, which I hope has evolved in that respect since the mid 80s, when I played it. Thanks for your thoughtful comment!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It has and it hasn't. Even the newest version that has playtest materials coming out still has the old conflation of race and culture issue... but it's getting better. Each release is less problematic than the last, but it does get old seeing easily avoidable issues.
@@flannerysnotebook Progress is often slow, but it’s good to know that it’s happening. Cheers!
Nope fantasy is not racist near sexist. The wheel of time? Not even Tolkien ...
For every Earthsea book there are two Tor books. The problem that makes Fatnasy problematic is the same issue that makes Post-Apocalypse problematic. It is an examination of our culture in it's primitive forms, the nobility of struggle against a wilderness both literally and politically. Racism and Sexism are just as common in Fantasy stories as swords or dragons. These can be expressed in an enlightened manner, but it can also be portrayed in a very dark way. What's worse even in the more enlightened exploration of those themes a reader can draw conclusions that support racism and sexism because the themes are expressed in parable, not articulated in a lecture.
Well said, Michael. Portraying racism doesn’t necessarily make a story racist. It can even be a critique. On the other hand, stories that repeat or support racist tropes are a different matter. Thanks for the comment!
I do agree that we do not need to be *limited* by something like historical accuracy when depicting quasi-medieval settings in fantasy literature, whether it be in race or anything else. On the other hand, need we be *obligated* to fulfill some form of "representation" in say our fantasy series dealing with Vikings? Does the exclusion of such types of representation imply racism or colonialist attitudes? Surely it's not wrong to include such types of diversity, and yet on the other hand, is it not becoming something of a cliche of its own to include a Moorish character or (offensively, I think) an Asian slave (as in the Vikings TV series on History Channel) as a form of almost tokenism? Surely, there is a difference between an utterly fantastic series, and one that appears to be grounded in some kind of alternate historical premise. I would not expect to see a racially diverse cast of characters in Rebecca Kuang's "Poppy War" (again, this very awkward North American idea about diversity, which pretty much narrowly refers to the checked box categories on a US census form.) Diversity in fantasy and sci-fi is great. Let's have more of it. But there are some implications here that I am not sure I understand or am comfortable with.
Greekvvedge Well said! I agree with you that there’s room in fantasy for historically inspired narratives with more or less homogeneous cultures. I’m really objecting to the idea that including diversity in fantasy is somehow wrong because it’s historically inaccurate. It’s an old idea that is expressed less often these days, to be sure. I also agree that tokenism for its own sake can be problematic and even insulting. So, yes, I agree with you that there is no obligation to feature diversity in a fantasy book. That said, I hope that fewer people object to diversity in a particular book that might be, for example, Viking inspired on some level because “there were no brown or black people among the actual Vikings”. There was no actual magic or dragons among historical Vikings either, but no one objects to those things. So, I think you expressed yourself very well, and I also think we agree on all counts, with perhaps a slight difference in emphasis. Just an aside here: The Poppy War actually has some diversity in that there is a clear hierarchy based on skin tone in Nikan, and there are cultures from outside of Nikan that are regarded as racially different, such as the Hesperians, who seem to be based on Europeans. Thanks so much for watching and responding with your helpful and well articulated insights!
Great thoughts! And don't forget, fantasy provides a framework in which you can come at an issue from any angle you choose, for example, M.T. Anderson's "Thirsty." It's not about being gay; it's about vampires. But it is SO about being gay!
Beautifully said, Linda!
Very important, well thought out and well said video. I can't say I disagree with much of anything you said in the video except for one thing. A small thing. I wouldn't even have known this little fact unless I'd been perusing TolkienGateway(dot)Net a few months ago, and landed on this page: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Harfoots.
Now, Harfoots are the most "common and typical" of the Hobbits you are going to encounter in Middle Earth, they are what makes up The Shire, and thus Hobbiton, Buckland, and Tookland. Harfoots are the sort of Hobbit that our five primary Hobbit characters are. Note this first line under "Nature:"
"They were shorter and smaller than the other breeds, *_browner of skin,_* had no beards, and did not wear any footwear; they had neat and nimble hands."
So the only thing I disagreed with that you said, was that the heroes of *The Lord of the Rings* were white. In fact, all five of the Hobbits had brown skin. What shade of brown is unclear, but it was browner than that of a white person to have been mentioned in Tolkien's texts. And yes, this means Peter Jackson whitewashed the heck out of Hobbiton.
Granted, most people projected their own bias onto the characters, myself included, and assumed they were white. Same situation with the characters from "The Wheel of Time," but a couple of WoT RUclipsrs recently did a video showing textual evidence, as well as evidence from the notes of Robert Jordan, that some of these characters could indeed be characters of color. Characters that everyone, artists included, assumed were white. That doesn't change the fact that there were indeed non-white characters present, in either of these authors' work.
What an excellent point! Thank you for pointing that out. As you say, it’s hard to tell exactly how brown Tolkien meant there, but the fact is the Harfoots are browner than the other two types of hobbit. Just goes to show you that nothing is “black and white,” especially when it comes to people. People are complex, which is one reason why we should avoid labels for individuals except in extreme cases. Tolkien was, I think, a good person who, like all of us, was in part a product of his time. I really appreciate you bringing this insight into the mix - thank you!
I don't believe in my mind that fantasy is racist or sexist. This is coming from a man of color. Fantasy should be an escapist and not involve current politics. I don't need to know the ethnicity or color of the character because it should be irrelevant. If you want to envision Aarogon as black or brown go for it. Who cares. I just need to know the content of their heart(thanks MLK). I feel if you are looking for that kind of representation there are many books out there in the genre for you to find. I don't feel the need to look for that to be happy. A well written story could be written by a woman and I would view it as an equal to a man's story because that's what it's about.. the story not what check the box person wrote it. I wouldn't view Robin Hobb as a superior or inferior to any male writer except in the context of the story written. As a Hispanic male I've never read any Hispanic based fantasy nor do I know if any is out there. I could care less. I want a good story, great characters, and a memory to take away from my experience regardless of who or what wrote the story. We can all unify under the idea of great fiction no matter the source.
As an additional point to my discussion I believe Dr. Chase elegantly put his perspective out there and handled the issue at hand very well. I admire your perspective and taste and you have done this discussion a great service. Thank you.
@Philip Chase
Very well stated, Sergio! Thank you for your valuable perspective!
Short and long answer: no. If indeed we were going to consider the genre in itself I would consider that for the last decades the genre itself has been clearly less racist and sexist. When we discard the original romanticism and medievalism parts who have some racism and special sexism as part of their historical representation, we find a genre that as early as the 80s stays at the forefront of literary human imagination alongside science fiction (and the ties of the fantasy and the science fiction genre are clear and continue from this point). If we consider something written in the first half (some in the very first half) of the XXth century and we compare with other works of the same time period, they are surprisingly forward minded in some aspects, and just as not as most if not all works of other genres of the period. It's a bit like considering Abraham Lincoln a racist (which objectively he was, but certainly not by his time's standards). When the genre then takes the leap to forget or outright subvert the 'romantic' reading of 'historical/medieval' fantasy we find some of the most fascinating exploration of alternative forms of societies in more ways than one. In general, I feel this question in particular is loaded in its own, and clearly not a fair one.
Jordi Richart Well said! I hope from the video that you gathered I feel much the same way. The last thirty years are, in my mind, Exhibit A as to the diversity and quality one can find in fantasy. As I say, I believe fantasy as a genre is uniquely suited to inspire positive change. That said, there’s a legacy from the past (the 19th and early 20th century) that has bequeathed tropes that we might do well to question. The Lincoln analogy is apt, I think, and I hope the spirit in which I discussed Tolkien in particular shows my agreement. Thanks for your thoughtful comments, with which I agree!
Yes, any work of art will be a reflection and interpretation of the culture it is produced in. As you say, it would be miraculous if early fantasy did not contain racist and sexist undertones. But I think the genre today is very progressive. There's fantastic LGBT representation like in the Locked Tomb Series. There's non-eurocentric works like The Rage of Dragons Poppy War, etc. And I particularly enjoy the look at class and systems of power present in all of Brandon Sanderson's work.
Matt S Beautifully said! I completely agree with your take on the genre today, and you’re absolutely right about the diverse representation it includes. This diversity is something that can only strengthen the genre, in my opinion. Thanks for the insightful comments!
I loved this analysis. Thank you for the thoughtful video.
Thank you! I appreciate the supportive comment since it’s a difficult but important topic to engage with.
I'm more of a non fiction reader so I can't judge the genre as a whole but I do love a few fantasy series and none more than Tolkiens works. However there really is no way to avoid the fact his work is a tad patriarchal, somewhat racist, flirts uncomfortably with eugenics and has a big old dose of orientalism
Does it mean Tolkien was racist? Nop, but it definitely reflects a problematic structural mindset. Yes it's a product of its time but that is only a reason not an apology
Well said!
Problem (aside from flagrant denial from a discouraging number of people) is too many people see these issues as one dimensional. Sexism isn't just the number of women in a story and racism isn't just skin color. Yes it's a reflection of its time but LOTR is an important and influential book and it's clearly mostly a fairly strict patriarchy with its society and it's institutions built around it; orcs and skin color aside it casually describes "higher and lesser men" and displays their blood "mixing" in a negative light (this hierarchy of races is very present throughout all his work) and it is heavily euro centric, not just by virtue of focusing on "the west" but describing it as more advanced and better in an evolutionary paradigm, in fact orientalism is probably the most present of the ones I listed
Silmarillion and LOTR are my favorite fiction books but I think its important we recognise these shortcomings
Orientalism, racism and sexism can seem like a broken record to many of these deniers but the fact is it is this exact kind of paradigme which at times resulted in at best systemic social division and inequality and at worst unspeakable atrocities (in the time of Tolkien)
Sorry if any of that sounded off, English is my 3rd language
@@joshlyman7059 Very well said once again, and I agree with you. Your English is excellent!
Of course everyone understands that oliphants themselves are neither racist nor sexist. We can learn a lot from oliphants!
Quite true! The oliphants are likely wiser than we are.
Fantasy being racist and sexist......... Sometimes.
The actual books can be, so can the video games, which can take place in different time periods, whether it be the past, present, or future.
Well said, Tyler!
I love this video, and what you have said, but one thing I will say is this, Racism as we use it and know it today, did not exist in the ancient world nor even in the middle ages, in places like Alexandria or Constantinople, and or even Rome did have diverse populations, especially in port cities where there was much trade. The racism of the past, wasn't us Whites versus Blacks, or Us Asians verus White. Race as we see it today, originated in the Colonial Era, around the 1600s, and sadly it was Western Europeans who came up with the concept, to justify their "superiority" Romans and the Greeks alike hated and I mean hated the Northern Europeans. It is sad, that most Western/Northern Europeans don't understand that the Greeks and the Romans considered their ancestors as barbaric, depicting them as beasts in their artwork. Julius Ceaser even jusitfied the ill treatment pretty much inhuman practices that the Romans did to the Germanic peoples. The conquered identified with their conqeurors Western Europe and their Holy Roman Empire, and embracing Greek traditions; and philosophy was the case of really bad stockholm syndrome. The Romans and the Greeks respected Africans more than they did Northern Europe, and Nazi Germany went out of its way to prove the Romans right about them, which is the saddest thing. I mean western Europeans love Aristotle but do they know how he thought of their ancestors, and more than likely would feel about them... here is the full quote from the man himself about his opinion of Northern/Western Europeans. "The nations inhabiting the cold places and those of Europe are full of spirit but somewhat deficient in intelligence and skill, so that they continue comparatively free, but lacking in political organization and capacity to rule their neighbors." yikes, Aristotle the well loved philosopher among Western/Northern Europeans thought so lowly of their ancestors, that to me it is somewhat embarrasing to praise civilizations who gave no crap about Western/Northern Europeans. Europe even got its name from the greeks, many Ancient greeks would see that as they have the superior culture and intelligence, the Greeks nor the Romans passed down a penny to "Western Civilization" The two ancient societies wanted nothing to do with Germanics, Anglo Saxons, and whatever was north of Rome or Greece. Yet people praise them, the same people who oppressed their ancestors, depicting them as beasts in their art, took them as slaves and raped them, even killed them without thinking, yea talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
You’re absolutely right, I think, that racism as we know it is a relatively recent construct. Even the concept of race is more sociological than biological. Thanks for the input!
Okay, but you had *one* book in your top 10 fantasy that had a woman or POC main character. So yeah. It’s pretty racist and sexist and continues to be.
Also I reject the idea that once again, it falls upon the victim to “use nuance” when dealing with racists and sexists. And yes, not questioning your society and assumptions is racist. There aren’t many of the hardened positions that you have in mind anymore. At this point, if you fail to learn and expand your horizons, in this day and age, it *is* a hardened position. The onus to grow is on YOU, not me.
Thank you for offering your perspective - I appreciate your thoughts and will reflect on them.
Sorry, English isn't my native language so I hope I can express my thoughts without being misunderstood...
Is there a minimum of books we all should have that include strong females and or people of color?
Or what do you mean? Do you criticize the generally lack of such of in fantasy literature?
Or do you really think people who aren't of color have the responsibility to dig through the book shelves to look for it?
I personally read what I think is entertaining. I don't care as long as it's good. And if a book has issues I recognize them and look at them in context.
Fortunately we are not in the earlier 20 century. Fortunately a lot has changed. But branding an author as racist and feeling bad to read it? .... come on
Thank you for this. I was getting disheartened by the overwhelming denialism in the community. It is important to remain openminded and critical when approaching subjects like this, instead of falling into political traps
Thank you! It's a tough topic in many ways, and some people seem to think it will all go away if they can shush anyone discussing it, but I think it's too important not to talk about. I strongly agree with you about the importance of being openminded when approaching it.
🤦♂️ You can't have those because it's the reader telling the author how to write their own book and what they are feeling.
It's like sitting there and telling someone who wrote song lyrics about suicide and then saying we'll you should have written about abuse of women.
it doesn't work that way. No author should write in POC of women because REAL WORLD. It's not the real world it fantasy.
The characters of different races come from what the author makes up.
I think fantasy publishers are slowly starting to push the genre beyond its sexist & racist roots. Take for instance LotR, the idea that it could be published today is absurd. But that’s a good thing. Tolkien could easily revise his story to be more inclusive and less bigoted.
Harrison Williams You’re right on all accounts. Fantasy has actually become much more diverse, and I see that trend as continuing. It makes me sad to acknowledge the truth you wrote about Tolkien’s work since, as I said in the video, I grew up on Tolkien, and he brought me to fantasy by revealing a keen sense of beauty and sorrow in his stories. I guess my relationship with Tolkien’s work has become more complex than it was when I was young. I still love it, but there’s too much at stake to not acknowledge its faults.
Another great thing about Earthsea is that most of the characters are not white, but the villain army is white.
doc837 Excellent point! The Hardic people of Earthsea for the most part are various tones of brown. This was a somewhat unusual but deliberate and wise choice on Le Guin’s part back in the 1960’s. Thanks for the comment!
As a woman, I really appreciated that Tolkien took Arwen and Eowyn and made them warriors who challenged the idea that women could not fight.
Well said! However, Arwen doesn’t appear in LOTR nearly as much as she does in the Peter Jackson films. She’s mostly a matter for the appendices. Jackson wisely increased her role for the films, for example by giving her Glorfindel’s role in saving Frodo by the ford near Rivendell. Eowyn is interesting, but she is most certainly a trope that Tolkien took straight from Old Norse sagas. For example, see Signy in the Saga of the Volsungs. Galadriel is wonderful, but there’s no question that she’s idealized, more ethereal than an in the flesh woman.
I should add that I do think that, though she fits the pattern of the shieldmaiden in Old Norse/Germanic stories, Eowyn is the closest Tolkien came to really developing a female character with her own arc, motives, and interests. So, your point really is a good one and would have been worth mentioning in the video. There are quite a few female characters in The Silmarillion too, though, like all the characters in The Silmarillion, they tend to be flat and idealized. I think LOTR is still a wonderful story for women and girls to read. In fact, my 12 year old daughter recently finished LOTR and loved it. And I read The Hobbit to my daughters when they were little.
A series such as LOTR may seem "problematic" in this day and age, but I don't really think it's fair to judge things from the past based on present standards. Personally I don't really care that fantasy in the past has largely excluded women. When I think of epic fantasy, the race or gender or sexuality of the characters ranks very low on the list of things that define it- frankly there are so many more important things that the genre was built on. But if that's what a reader wants, there are plenty of authors out there who write these things that they can read, rather than criticize those who "aren't inclusive enough".
Also, I will never understand why the opinions of minorities should get a boost in such conversations. I am a woman and Hispanic, but I don't get why that matters. I don't think my opinion should be any more valid because of this, because doing so seems more racist or sexist to me than the literature that people take issue with in the present.
Great to hear your take! I agree that we need to take into account (to the extent we can) how past standards differ from those of the present. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I really dislike this logic of “if you haven't mentioned women or black / asian people you are -ist (racist, misogynistic, and so on ). Middle earth is a fictional place and it is one continent of Arda, just like Westeros is one continent of a more vast world. I'm from Italy yet I don't see Italians in every single movie Hollywood makes (or any book that has been written). Does this mean Hollywood hates Italy? I don't think so.
Are you a dull pencil, cause I think you're missing the point
Earthsea: Yes. But Actually No.
(Though to be fair the Sexism bit is in purely to comment on Sexism given LeGuin was a feminist and considered Sexism the plague.)
That’s fair, especially if you’re just talking about A Wizard of Earthsea. Later, especially in Tehanu, Le Guin takes on the topic head on.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yep, especially Tehanu as well as a Tale of Earthsea to an extent, most prominently through the short story Dragonfly.
If you read that description of orcs and immediately in your head think of black people…..I think that says more about you than it does about Tolkien. Orcs are not racist. This is ridiculous.
Tolkien is not referring to black people in his letter when he talks about the origin of orcs. He’s referring to a European stereotype of Asian people. He says it himself. Please note that, just as I say in the video, this doesn’t mean I’d apply the label “racist” to him.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy First off, I apologize for not being clear with the first comment. The reason I said black people was because I am aware of other claims that orcs are racist caricatures of black people. I’m sorry for not being clear with that; I jumped the gun too soon.
And just to be clear, I wasn’t saying that you specifically called him a racist. I just know that based on quotes like these, people could very easily consider him to be racist, and I strongly disagree.
Great video, by the way! I’m enjoying looking through your other videos. I love RUclipsrs dedicating themselves to exploring fantasy!
@@grimdarkwrld Thank you for clarifying, Sam. I appreciate it a lot, and I agree with you that it would be a mistake to slap the label “racist” on Tolkien. That would involve ignoring the many ways in which he was the opposite of a racist - he was someone who opposed forms of racism in his time. As I say in the video, I’d like to think that, if he were around today, Tolkien would recognize that some of the tropes he didn’t question and leaned on in his writing had origins in colonialism and racism. He was a brilliant and in many ways empathetic person, but he was (like all of us) a person of his time and place. In general, I think it’s better not to apply labels to people and instead to try to understand the whole person in their context. Calling a particular behavior racist or examining tropes that reinforce racism or sexism is another matter. I think it’s important to explore these things without branding people and with a desire to understand the person rather than judge and condemn them. Anyway, I’m grateful for your feedback, and I deeply appreciate you watching the videos on my channel!
Malazan has the worst characters of any fantasy. Post modernism is devoid of reality and creates a poor view of individuals and this is what there isn't a single good character in Malazan.
So you think I'm an orc?
You cant beat K I haven’t met you, so I would never presume such a thing. Your question also puzzles me since I would think that anyone watching the video would see that I’m not in favor of characterizing any people as orcs.
Very interesting topic! While I understand and respect the opinions here, I can't say I agree on many of the points. Anything that hints at PC/SJW agendas triggers my right wing rage...kidding (kind of) I am actually pretty liberal, but don't feel a need to live in a world that revolves around walking on eggshells of peoples feelings and constantly fretting over who might get offended by what. Call me crazy, but how about the author writes the story they want to tell with the characters they want to portray and then let the free market decide if the book is offensive or not.
Also, at about the 12:00 mark, you state that you will continue to read white/male authors even though you recognize "possible shortcomings of their portrayal of race and gender and culture"...why would potential shortcomings of this nature just be the province of white males? Is a woman, or person of color, or a member of the LGBTQ community somehow immune from the possibility that they could have shortcomings of their portrayal of race, gender and culture?
Finally I found your comment interesting regarding Tolkein (using him as an example) of failing to "question the powerful and underlying assumptions of their culture and time". Why would he?, or a better question, Why would one judge a man born in 1892 based on 2020 ideals? I am not saying anything bad about Tolkein, but if you look at historical figures in general, including those we usually regard as "heroes", if you do a deep dive into their history, you will find that most of these "heroes" were actually pretty despicable people when using PC 2020 standards as your benchmark. The point I am trying to make, and not very well, is that society changes, culture changes...if Orcs are actually based on some sort of 100 year old racial stereotype WHO CARES...that was then, this is now, move on. #CancelOrcs
Great response! I agree with you that anyone -- any sort of person -- can be guilty of "possible shortcomings of their portrayal of race and gender and culture." That is absolutely true, and such portrayals are usually not harmless. I have been in situations -- both in my home country of the United States and abroad -- where people's assumptions about me as a straight white man have felt threatening or inaccurate or even amusing. However, for the most part, I have been able to brush off or laugh at such assumptions because of the power and privilege I have as a straight white man. Members of groups that have enjoyed less power cannot afford to laugh the same way -- in fact, often enough, assumptions about them have deadly consequences, and at the least such assumptions have been used to denigrate them and justify persecuting them. This is why I choose to listen when people tell me they find certain portrayals hurtful, and as a straight white man, I personally feel a special obligation to listen.
Regarding the questioning of powerful assumptions of our culture and time, I think you also make a good point. Most of us lack the imagination and the will to question those cultural assumptions. I'm sure that many racists and even slave owners in the 19th century thought of themselves as decent and even righteous people. I don't doubt that the majority of upstanding soldiers in Nazi Germany found ways to look in the mirror and see a moral person. But we don't need to dwell on the extreme cases. I gave the example of Tolkien in the video because I agree with you: It would be wrong to label him a "racist", and any nuanced and fair attempt to assess him must take into account not only his many statements against the worst forms of racism in his day but also the fact of his cultural surroundings and assumptions. He strikes me as a very decent person, in fact, who likely would have been astonished at the notion that some people have found some of the tropes he used as racist and colonialist. Someone else wrote to me with the example of Abraham Lincoln, who, by the standards of 2020, was undoubtedly a racist. It's a great example. So, yes, I agree with you that it's too simple to sit in judgement using our standards. However, in 2020, would I be wrong to describe the baddies in my book the same way Tolkien described orcs in his letter (the one I quoted)? I think so.
I'm not sure I really answered any of your questions or concerns, but I do appreciate your input a lot. This wasn't a comfortable or easy dialogue to have even before recent events here in the USA put such issues in the national spotlight in a big way (I made the video before the recent escalation of the issue, but I'm not sure if it was good or bad timing!) -- so I'm glad you felt comfortable expressing yourself. As I say in the video, fantasy has become incredibly diverse and thus enriched in the last 30 years or so. I take hope from that, and I hope to learn a lot from it too. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy We may not agree completely on the path to get there, but we do agree on the destination. Keep up the good work!
tbone6924 Thank you! I’m really glad for your perspective. When good people with different perspectives listen to each other, good things happen.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Dude, what the hell? You sound so brainwashed when you say the power and privilege you have as a straight white man. That sounds like someone who thinks they're superior. You have to get out of that mindset. Surely you didn't think that 10 or 20 years ago.
@@BradLad56 I definitely don’t want to come off as thinking I’m superior, so I’ll have to work on that. What I’m trying to sound like is someone who’s ready to learn from others, even those who disagree with me or might be critical of books I love. My experience is that people are not as terrible as the labels we put on them, and I think that, in general, most of us could work on our listening skills. Twenty years ago I was reading a lot of history, so I did have a sense of the advantages that being a white male gave me. I’m sure I had a lot of learning to do then, as I do now! Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Well said, Philip!
Thanks, and thanks for watching!
Watching many shows and blacks always die and are always bad guys, cowards, or not there ar all. The Flash, Game of throwns, Star gate SG 1, Primeval, the 100, so many more.
Representation has always been a big problem with Hollywood. Attempts to adjust it are often met with hostility. Someone could write a whole history about it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Someone should
You don't understand fantasy stories. The majority of them are not set on earth, right?
So, telling any author he needs to add people of color or LGBT, or what have you does not work.
For starters, you don't know what the person is writing or trying to say. On top of that, they are writing what they know and about the world they came up with.
Brandon Sanderson seems to be getting away with modern day racist portrayals just fine.
While I admit that I’ve enjoyed and admire aspects of Sanderson’s books that I’ve read, I’d be open to listening to criticism along the lines you mention. I would disagree with the idea that Sanderson is a hard core racist with an overtly racist agenda in his books (that’s not what you’re saying anyway), but there are certain themes and topics, such as slavery, that perhaps he might want to consider or talk over with people. In addition, at the least, perhaps he would do well to consider some of his portrayals. I do think there could be a nuanced and respectful but critical discussion about them.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I genuinely appreciate your response, and I agree. Thank you for taking the time to make this video and discuss issues that are difficult and at times, uncomfortable. I came to your channel because I was so impressed with how you handled the question of sexual violence in Malazan. While it sounds odd, Erikson’s inclusion of that issue has always been really important to me, but to see a group of men speak about it with such compassion and understanding was incredibly meaningful. So thank you, and looking forward to more great discussions. :)
@@unladenswallow43 Thanks so much! I do believe that literature at its best is both a reflection of life and an opportunity to explore it, including difficult, painful things like sexual violence. That said, it’s extremely important that an author handle such things with great sensitivity and by dealing with the consequences. In general, I think Erikson does this very well. Robin Hobb is another good example. It’s important for fantasy writers and fans to be aware of such things, I believe, because ours is a genre where sexual violence has often been used as a prop to glorify an avenging male hero. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Orcs are not black people, they are orcs. Neither dark elves are blacks. Etc it's why it's called fantasy. I can imagine what I want. Woke people nowadays try to mine everything that exists. They enjoy destroying what other people write. One of the most common comments I see here on youtube is questions like (high pitch voice) why don't you read more female writers? Why don't you read more gay characters. And most tubers fall to that. Why should I? I don't care the gender or colour of the writer. I Want to love the book. Fantasy is escapism. Don't bring nowadys politics to our world. These are my thoughts :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, which I appreciate!
Word
I find your point regarding Tolkien's description of the orcs alarming. To me, it sounds like you're trying to police the way authors can describe the appearances of their monsters, creatures, etc labeling them as "Racist". That's a dangerous slope. Where does that line end? Can no monsters be ugly? Can we not have traditional toklien-esque orcs in fantasy anymore? Do we all have to design our creatures in a similar, specific way as to avoid stepping on some zealot's eggshell? Oh, don't give anyone small eyes. Make sure everyone's noses are narrow and straight. And don't forget that everyone's body type must be average. Ridiculous. This kind of thought control is what kills writing, not enriches it. If you find the description of a non-existent monster/creature racist, I think that's more of a problem with you than the author. When I read the description of a stereotypical vampire, a gaunt and pale blood-sucking creature usually in a position of high stature, as a white man the thought of it being racist hasn't ever crossed my mind until this video and I'm sure you'd agree. I like vampires, reading, seeing them, writing them. But if an Orc is racist, so are they. That's two of the big time races down (Hell, vampires basically have an entire genre), how much longer until the rest?
Now, I'm not gonna sugar coat things, there are definitely authors out there who have actually designed their fantasy races as a cut and paste racist stereotype of a real one. But Tolkien? You said it yourself, the man vocally spoke out against racism.
My point is, like themes, this can be interpreted infinitely. If you're looking for racism, I'm sure you can find a way to see it. That's not the writer's fault, that's not the fans' fault, that's the individual's fault. Let's take a step back and use some common sense before we start labeling every fantasy author whose written about orcs as racist.
To end positively though, I did enjoy your point at the end about "historical accuracy" being used in an argument about fantasy and I agree with it. That's solid and I never thought about it that way before. Besides, more diverse characters is usually a lot more interesting than everyone looking the same.
Judge Holden Well said, and I hope I made myself clear in saying that the label “racist” is not something I would apply to Tolkien, the person. If I wasn’t clear on that, my apologies. It’s not a word people should use lightly. That said, I am responding to people who have seen certain tropes, like orcs, as having roots in racist and colonialist stereotypes. Tolkien’s choice of words in that one letter would seem (to me) to give weight to such an analysis. Does that make him a racist? In my book, no. A nuanced look at the man would take into account his many other statements and, I think, lead to the conclusion that he was actually a pretty decent human being who lived during a time when racist and colonialist stereotypes were less questioned. Regarding the slippery slope, I think you make an important point. It really is possible to go too far in terms of calling out every little thing as offensive to someone or other. As I say in the video, I’m trying to listen to people and learn to be more aware. I’m also still a devoted fan of Tolkien too, by the way. He will always be my favorite author, but that doesn’t mean I will shut my eyes and ears to other people’s perceptions of shortcomings, or even potentially hurtful material, though unintended, in his work. Thanks very much for your thoughtful response - much appreciated!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy And I appreciate your well-written and civil response too. I think you hit the nail on the head with those last sentences. Being aware and able to hear other's people perceptions and thinking about them is key to being the best that we can be, both as writers, readers, and humans.
Your response was a breath of fresh air from the usual dribble on RUclips and I respect you for that. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
@@MRJTD99 Thank you -- I appreciate both your kind words and the follow up. Regarding awareness of others, I could not have said it better than you did. This was a helpful and pleasant interaction for me, and I very much hope to hear from you again on some other fantasy-related topic.
It is not that monsters cant be ugly, it is that certain descriptions are *leaning* on viewers (or outright telling them) to find them ugly. Its all about the context in this case. Why is it ugly for the orc to have a nose that looks the way it does, or eyes that look the way they do, or body proportions in the way that they are? I challenge you to tell me why those things have ugliness inherent in them, and then maybe you'll realize that simply assuming which characteristics are the ones we give to the ugly monsters is racist. Other youtubers (Lindsay Ellis) have done great work examining the ways that we create "monsters" as society, and also gives an abbreviated history of monster antagonists in a way that shows their racial underpinnings.
To another point, Vampires actually have a fascinating history tied to class, rather than race. In olden times peasants of feudal estates invented stories with villains that were predatory, insatiable, lustful, greedy, conniving, etc because that reflected the villains of their time: the aristocracy which took their women, land, money, and lives. Thus the vampires we know and love today were born. Its not exactly "race", but the distinction of these villains being exceptionally pale was relevant because pale skin was so highly sought after by royalty across the world (the lighter the skin, the less time you spent outside toiling in the fields and so the wealthier you must be), so other cultures can easily partake in and reinforce vampire tropes since the messaging behind the pale skin is universal.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 Thank you -- I will check out Lindsay Ellis's video/s on this topic. I'm sure I will learn a lot. I appreciate the comment!
LOL, a video from a nerdy white man's perspective =p. When Tolkien talks about the "race of men" are easily corrupted, or the "race of dwarves" cherish gold above all else...that is racism: a belief that moral character is a genetic trait. Racism is basically laziness...it's a belief that a group of people are superior because of their breeding...they didn't have to work at it, or learn it...they were just born that way. Interestingly, we know biologically that all humans are equal-there is no master race.
This nerdy white man agrees with you about what racism is and that all humans are equal. Well said.
Interesting video. I prefer inter-cultural dialogue to diversity. I would like to say something about historical revisionism (not talking about fantasy). I am Portuguese, and my country was always diverse, even in the Middle Ages. However, you cannot say the same thing about other European countries. I also wouldn't like to have an American movie reinventing the history of my country just because it doesn't fit their ideology. I wish slavery had never existed in Portugal, but this is not what happened. The problem with 'diversity' nowadays, is that it is vastly infuenced by a totalitarian ideology. People are confusing ethics with ideology, which focuses on appearances and the politically correct. You even have English speaking people sayng that romance languages should be changes because they are sexist! In regards to diversity in fantasy: if the fantasy world is disconnected from reality, I would like it to be diverse. If the fantasy world is inspired in a specific culture and time, like The Witcher, I would like to have the feeling that I am in a slavic world. Countries in the Americas are more diverse for obvious reasons, not the entire world is like the US or the UK.
Thank you for this thoughtful response! You make some strong points. To me, education is so important, and awareness not only of one’s history but also the history of humanity. And, yes, honesty is essential too, with perhaps a strong dose of humility to make sure we listen and don’t judge reflexively. I appreciate your thoughts!
Like everything, it is consumer driven. It is what it is, don't like it don't read it.
Scott Bishop That fantasy, like all other genres, is in large part consumer driven is an undeniable fact. However, I’d like people who don’t read fantasy (and often dismiss it) to at least understand that there’s so much more to the genre than they think. Of course, as you say, if they don’t like it, they won’t read it (and likely won’t watch my video!). Thanks for the comment!
That's Dangerous. You use a modern and vague reading of One's character as catalyst to your logic. So the notion of justice becomes ritualistic, shortsighted and speculative. For that you end up scandalizing charity.
If you actually watch the video, you might see that I’m doing exactly the opposite.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I watched the your video and in the end you used the physicals description of the Ork as a proof of Tolkien's ''euro centricity'' or ''colonial inheritance''. This conclusion undone the temperate and careful approach from the beginning of the video. Maybe you if you analyze racial iterations inside LOTR notions (like dwarfs elves and etc.) you could extract better idea of who Tolkien's really was.
Also, the man was a academic Catholic, so the Objective value (therefore salvation) of the human life beyond race is in the core of the belief. He without a doubt knew about the pitfalls of colonialism, by the Church's presence in it, once theres no lack of Jesuit and Franciscan documents about it.
I'm just arguing that in doubt, a defense in good faith of his character would do more for your cause, then a vague (and however small) verdict of his guilt.
Is the folklore of every culture racist? What nonsense.
Based on your question, I’m guessing you didn’t watch the video.
I have no issue with the writing diverse, interesting characters in Fantasy. I DO have an issue with retroactively adding people of color into older stories where they didn't exist because they are not supported by the story lore and they stick out like a sore thumb, removing any feeling of immersion. Write new, better, and more inclusive fantasy. Leave the old stuff how it was. Just my two cents.
Edit: Typos..
I think that's a reasonable position to take. After all, there's no way to change what was written in the past, and there's plenty we can learn from it. Also, as you say, the stories with diverse characters and settings being written now offer new possibilities that are pretty exciting. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I went to this video looking for an educated and nuanced counterargument to some of my thoughts on the state of fantasy literature in the hope of thinking more clearly. You didn't disappoint. Subscribed. I'll keep an eye out for more great content!
@@joshcoward437 Thanks, Josh! It speaks highly of you that you seek out opinions that differ from yours. There is, I think, far too little of that these days, and too little social discourse with the intent to learn. I appreciate the interaction, and also the sub! 😁
Well I guess you don’t like the AMAZING changes wizards of the coast is doing to dungeons and dragons
NotcarlXD42eii o's It’s been a while since I’ve played D&D (the 1980s, in fact), so I’m out of touch, to be honest. I’d love to know what you’re referring to, though. If you mean that D&D is becoming more reflective of diversity, that would fit with one of the first observations I made in the video, which is that fantasy has become much more diverse in the last 30 years and is nothing like the stereotype some people have about it as a genre of wish fulfillment for awkward white males. Anyway, I’d love to know what you mean. Thanks for commenting!
Philip Chase nah the opposite I’m sad to say they are appealing to the “social justice warriors “and are changing things to please the mob, like orcs and “races “ . (Wait not the opposite but instead of changing their removing or censoring)
NotcarlXD42eii o's Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I’m generally not a fan of censorship. Personally, if I felt the need to include an orc-like race in a book I was writing, I’d add some nuance to them, perhaps make some of them perspective characters so we get their side of things. I know that’s been done a lot already. I’m not wise enough to know all the answers, but that seems to me a better approach than banning something like orcs outright, which won’t work anyway. In other words, maybe putting out some positive examples of what orcs can be (you don’t have to make them “nice”, just complex) might work better than saying nobody gets to use orcs anymore. My two cents for now, but I’d be willing to listen to other people’s ideas.
Philip Chase do you have a published book?
NotcarlXD42eii o's Not yet! I’ve written a few books (fantasy, of course), and I’ve gone as far as getting an agent, but no publisher yet. Someday, I hope!
I think the small number of people popping around throwing the big -ist words at people born well over a century ago can be a little silly. “Oh, look at me, the paragon of virtue because I just happen to be born later.” Indeed people are messy. People and their lives are filled with advantages and suffering bundled all together into one meat sack. Throwing these -ist terms can sometimes lose that nuance. Thanks!
I agree with you. Labels often prevent thinking and acknowledging another’s complexity. For me, it’s in general more important to identify racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination than it is to hang labels like racist and sexist on individuals. Most (all?) of us have our prejudices that we can work on, but a label ending in -ist implies that we can’t change.
Problamatic fantasy fiction is the best fantasy fiction. Why am I reading a book that conforms to the current political narrative when I get that everywhere in reality?
Anyone who thinks fantasy is racist, and sexist, and thinks it should be banned is way too sensitive, and needs to get a life. If you don't like high fantasy works that exist, and how they're written then don't view those works, or write your own PC SJW fantasy works. Btw I'm a white dude, who loves high fantasy, and I think a fantasy novel, or movie based on Ancient Egyptian mythology, would be awesome, if written, and done well. I love reading about Ancient Egypt, and it's myths. How could you not love a civilization that built such awe inspiring monuments, such as the Pyramids of Giza, the Sphinx, and the beautiful artwork, and jewelry they created.
If you're an African American who loves high Fantasy, loves writing, and feels European based fantasy doesn't reflect your culture good enough, then Ancient Egypt provides a great source of inspiration for a non white, non European based work of High fantasy, that would be unique, and would be widely popular if done right.
Exodriver Well said! Banning a genre for any reason seems excessive to me too. In fact, as I say in the video, it’s misguided to characterize an entire genre on the basis of some of its works, and in fact fantasy has become incredibly diverse and rich in its representation. Even though I acknowledge that some of the tropes that exist in fantasy have racist and colonialist origins, I think it would also be a mistake to dismiss outright anything that contains those tropes. I don’t think I’ve ever read any fantasy with an overtly racist, sexist, and hateful agenda (I wouldn’t want to either). That said, I’m willing to listen to people who find those tropes racist, even if the book in question is beloved to me, like LOTR. It would be wrong to label Tolkien racist, I think, since a nuanced view of the man would acknowledge the many things he wrote against forms of racism in his time. However, like everyone else, he was a person of his time, and I can see where people object to some of the tropes. Basically, except in cases where someone is obviously embracing racist rhetoric, my feeling is that we should not be too harsh when judging other people’s shortcomings, and it’s only fair to take into account the social assumptions surrounding them. I’m pretty sure there are ways in which I’m biased that I’m not even aware of, but someone in the future or someone from a different background might perceive it. Anyway, thanks much for your comments!
But fantasy is fantasy! In our world, we are bound by rules of biology and sociology. Who's to say that in the fantasy world you're watching/reading, which has a human-adjacent setting, that they are bound by these same rules? Is it not possible that their world has gods, and those gods designed inhabitants with different features and different skin color who all live in same place ? Fantasy can be medieval and diverse !
I love your videos, but I find your narrative to be very condescending on multiple levels. At the end of your video you mention that you will "continue to read your favorite white male authors, despite their possible shortcomings when it comes to race and gender". That doesn't make sense, they have the same amount of 'shortcomings' as anyone. A female doesn't understand being a male anymore than a male understands a female, and same goes for different races. I feel like this narrative that white men need to just shut up and not say anything is very dangerous. No race or gender should be subjected to that kind of treatment. We can all learn from each other.
Also, you mention listening to women and people of color. Well my girlfriend of four years is a black female, and her whole family is black. What they tell me is its extremely condescending for people to act like they have to instruct other people to listen to them, or give them a chance, because of the color of their skin. All they want is to be treated equally, which they feel they have been their whole lives. They frequently bring up that the only time when they feel their race is an issue is when people talk down to them by assuming they are given less of a chance or assume they need extra help because they are black. They hate when people of other races feel the need to be their voice, as if they couldn't speak for themselves.
Thanks for your perspective on this, Andrew! I certainly don’t intend or want to sound condescending to anyone. I would never ask anyone to “speak for” their race, which I agree would be condescending. However, if someone from a background different from mine should wish to share their perspective, I would hope to learn from that person. Finally, I don’t think I said that white males shouldn’t get to speak. That would be hypocritical of me since I am one. I’m happy to listen to white males who offer their perspectives respectfully and sincerely, such as you have done (I’m assuming you’re a white male, but correct me if I’m wrong). Personally, however, I do think that, since white men have wielded the majority of power for a long time, it wouldn’t hurt us to listen to other perspectives and learn from them. Thanks again for sharing your reactions, which I appreciate!
Actually, I think women have a better grasp on good male characters because they have consumed media since infancy that has the male gaze. As far as it being insulting to listen to poc and women to weigh in on if something is sexist/racist, yeah sure it is. If you’re *asking* and putting the emotional labor on them. If they come to the discussion and *state* it is racist/sexist, that’s a different kettle of fish entirely.
Imagine assuming orcs represent blacks, sounds like insecurity to me hahahahh
Actually, if you listen to the quote from Tolkien’s letter, it seems he had Asians in mind. Or, at least Europeans’ historical stereotypes about Asians. I’ll repeat that I personally would not label Tolkien a racist. In the context of his time period, he was probably progressive in many ways and stood against the forms of racism that were obvious to him. But everyone has blind spots and prejudices. We are all in part products of our historical environment, and it’s not always easy to understand our assumptions that derive from it.
As a white man I don't think of dumb things that waste my short life ;)
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Thank you!