Seven LAME Prog and Jazz Fusion Albums- By Great Prog and Fusion bands...
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- Опубликовано: 23 окт 2022
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Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College 
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Wow! Had never heard Zero Tolerance for Silence before. Made it about 8 minutes in and then had to immediately put on Cage's 4'33. This makes Metal Machine Music sound like Giant Steps.
The combination of ‘contractual obligation album’ and post-disco cocaine abuse really seemed to result in some bad albums late 70s into 80s.
'Post Disco Contractual Obligation To Pay For My Cocaine Habit' What a great album title!
I had to head to the comments sections to realise your comment was calling me forth all along. 🤣🥇
So many artists, surely, have 80s albums they wish would simply go away.
From the decade that gave us The Tweet's 'The Birdie Song', we have Phil Collin's 'Sussudio', and other terrible 'tunes' like Agadoo, Ebony and Ivory, We built this city, True, etc,. Oh and who can forget or forgive Eric Clapton's 'Behind the Sun'? 🤢🤮
Excellent and entertaining again, Andy. The live stream is brilliant.
Thanks Danu
Wonderful episode Andy.
Andy - really enjoyed this session. Certainly brightened up a rainy afternoon today, well done!
Glad you enjoyed it....my goal first and foremost is to entertain, like a good chat about music down the pub....
Great video Andy! Who would think that we could learn so much about our favourite artist/band from a discussion about there worst works. I suppose in order to discuss what is bad about an album, we need to discuss what makes the artist/band strong in the first place. Lots of great information, thanks.
I too purchased “Zero Tolerance for Silence” by Pat Metheny, and I felt exactly as you did.
I have such admiration for PM and the PMG, that I felt that I must be missing something on this album. Like you, I decided that I was not missing anything, and there is nothing for me on this album. Unlike you I did not keep the album, but I went to a local CD buy and trade store, and traded the album for “Animato” by John Abercrombie, Jon Chistensen (percussion) and Vince Mendosa (composer, arranger, and brilliantly unique keyboard improviser). Still my favorite Abercrombie album.
John Abercrombie is a favored jazz/rock guitarist among many fusion guitarist (including Pat Metheny). I wanted to comment on the Jan Hammer video but did not get around to it. So I will mention here an album by John Abercrombie, Jan Hammer and |Jack Dejonette. The album is called “Timeless”, it was released in 1975 on ECM. This album is post gen one of the Mahavishnu Orchestra (I believe). It is a very jazz AND rock album. Hammers work on the title track is absolutely beautiful. This album is a must listen to for any Jan Hammer fan.
Thanks Andy
Jack from Canada
Very entertaining video! I was riveted as the Gentle Giant cover slowly panned left to eventually cover your face. I hope that was intentional because it was genius!
That cover had it's revenge!!!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer lol
I worked for a music distribution warehouse for a retail record chain in the states. Everytime that I saw a new release for an amazing artist on GRP, I always held back tears. They used to give us free promos for many new releases in all genres. I learned alot about many fantastic bands and artists getting those free promos ( that nobody else wanted) I avoid most releases on GRP for the sake of my mental health. The Epidemics have all of the charm of a clogged drain.
First of all: people have different tastes in music. Regarding GRP: I like musicians like Dave Valentin, David Benoit, Larry Carlton, Dave Grusin, Earl Klugh, Lee Ritenour (All of them made albums for GRP). Are the all terrible and lame ?
@@arvopart1950 it depends. As Andy put it, there has been descent fuzak made by some well session musicians musicians. Where I take issue, is turning everyone that records for GRP into a fuzak musicians into a genre where most of the production and the music and musicians sound similar or the same without musica or individl nuance sanded off. I probably overstated everything on GRP. But musicians that had very inventive individual styles that recorded elsewhere, I would say that that is true.
As far as I’m concerned ELP NEVER had a clue. They were sniffing their own farts the whole time and had no self-awareness when prog declined. Love Beach is awful…but their other albums are a chore on the whole.
They don't do anything for me either, but curiously I really liked The Nice. I can't place what it is that makes me like one and dsmiss the other.
Tarkus is OK.
@@multi-purposebiped7419I loved ELP, but the Nice never did anything for me !
Yeah, never lived up to their potential. Needed an actual songwriter.... composer....
Their triple live album is mind-blowing. But other than that…🙄
Oh, this video was so much fun. Had me grinning and giggling like an idiot. Forgetting the name "Tony Banks" was an unexpected delight. Don't be hard on yourself, mate. What you do is absolutely top shelf!
I am starting to realise there are underlying themes to my videos that I am not aware of but that I find entertaining...I think the pomposity of prog and bursting that bubble is very entertaining. So when that happened I thought I should leave it in...it completely undermines my authority to sit there and hold judgement over these incredible artists. I know it's absurd to rank music, but it's also fun and in some way inspires people to listen, which I think is good.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Fun is the key word for me, the essential element that runs through all your videos.
Wonderful theme for a video. I feel so lucky to miss out buying any of these albums.
I find your playing very interesting and enjoyable.
Perhaps it is possible to do a video including your drumming?
There are a load of videos here...try searching Andy Edwards YYZ...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer will do. I enjoy your playing, but also enjoy listening to you talking.
So, maybe one day we put the two together?
I think the use of the DX7 was basically an assault on music, sound and production ... it s always Fun watchin'
I was stuck one Halloween with no idea for a costume. Then I hit upon it. I could be giant for a day. All I had to do was cut out the mask. Some people thought my costume was a little lame, but I assured them it was better than the album.
This is a very rare example of a Gentle Giant related joke. Respect!
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant! Nothing more needs to be said.
Just discovered your channel, you touch upon some interesting topics from a jazz/prog perspective. For me the problem with Genesis’ Calling All Stations’ was that the songs were too long and they missed Collins’ arrangement skills which worked on previous albums. You also pointed out that they began to lose their touch from We Can’t Dance. The change in producer also didn’t help as they had way too much control and this was evident in the timings on that project too. Anyway good video.
I love these videos, particularly the parts where you proactively address anticipated criticism and when you take on various forms of snobbery.
I'm bookmarking this one to remind myself not to feel too bad when I suffer a brain cramp. We can only hope I remember that I've bookmarked it. 😁
Another interesting video. Never been a huge fan of ELP or Gentle Giant, so can’t pass judgment on those two albums. Genesis lost the plot of what to do when Phil Collins left, the main inspiration for pop tunes skewed the band down a path of no return. After the Invisible Touch album I tuned out and stuck with PG and his aesthetic. I think you were right about certain bands could turn out a popular tune/riff for pop song length. I think it confused ELP and GG. Entertaining as usual from you.
A very entertaining run down Andy :-) Can't really argue with any of those, although I've not heard that Gadd album. I have to agree about CAS by Genesis, and tbh I've never even regarded it as a Genesis album. It's really a Rutherford/Banks project with some hired hands.
The rumour at the time was that Pat was upset with his Geffen deal and made "Zero Tolerence" just to quickly fill the album obligation. He denies this. But I'm a big fan of that record. It's like Free Jazz as seen through the eyes of Thrash and Hardcore. Someday it will be reevaluated for the genius it is.
"Calling All Stations" had some great songs, the title track was the coolest track since 'Mama', 'Congo' was perfect prog pop, 'Alien Afternoon', 'The Dividing Line', 'Uncertain Weather', 'There Must be Some Other Way', 'One Man's Fool', c'mon, this was a good Genesis album that yielded outtakes that belonged on there..........and much like you describe the Weather Report album, ELP were in the same boat with L.B., contractual obligation and yet still managed to deliver with 'Canario', 'Memoirs', and the obligatory but solid Greg Lake ballad 'For You'.....although, mind you, there is no excuse for the hideous cover that Emerson fought tooth and nail against.......they'd have done far better to showcase a hot female bum in the those "Love Beach" shorts being hawked with an album insert upon release..........ELPowell in '86 was a pared-down and brilliant return to form
If you own a few of these LAME Albums is there a fine due ? just asking for a friend.
We can poke a finger and laugh, whilst recognising that it’s completely natural and that we’ve done it ourselves lol
Great vid and whilst I’ve not heard some of the music you’ve discussed, the Genesis criticism was particularly salient, as I can remember having unresolved feelings about all their albums post Duke throughout the 80’s, until by the time ‘We Can’t Dance’ came along and I’d become immersed in American rock bands like Faith No More, Jane’s Addiction, 24-7 Spyz …. and British dance and Electronica like early Prodigy or The Orb etc … I’d become embarrassed by where Genesis had ended up. As the gift of time gives you even greater insight into your relationship with bands or artists you have loved, I have came to appreciate just how incredible Genesis were at their best,( still to this day probably my favourite band if there can be such a thing), but I’ve still never listened to their last two albums to this day. I’ll take your word for it ….. no problem lol
I went back and listened again to Calling All Stations...it just sounds so pointless and is a real missed opportunity...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I agree that they should have gone deeper into more experimental stuff or something, but they were always such a strange
band in that the older they got the more pop they became,….you tend to think of pop as being more the music of teenage record buying public,( generally). They seemed to do everything backwards lol
The Epidemics! I feel your pain. Went through the same sorry journey myself.
I admit, having checked for snipers, that I like Love beach. It has significance for my weird mind, for the time. In the late 70s some members of king crimson were involved in making pop resulting in bucks fizz. Greg lake had been a key member of king crimson and on this album got involved in making pop
I think that he was successful as I enjoy the songs. The second half of is a bit spoof, which is entertaining. My case is stated - you don't know where I live....
Because you made BANKS bigger than Tony, I assumed you'd got his surname wrong and said it with a 'W'. Genesis are my favourite band but I've never heard 'Calling All Stations' and your argument, on the basis of just two tracks, makes me glad I'll never have to hear it. As for the Metheny, I wonder if the album is an argument against the title, ie., silence is sometimes best. This video was as informative and life changing as your Top 10 Biscuits. Nice one Andy! Cheers, Ian.
I loved the Jeremy Clarkson reference. The Greatest band....In The World! Mike Rutherford was actually in a episode of Top Gear. Mike ends up being one of the slowest celebrity drivers....Of All Time!
Of course he was!!!! You couldn't make it up...
And Richard 'the hamster 'Hammond. Not a real hamster...
@@johncleary6126 But a real Dick....
Wait another ten years. When you go the frige and don’t remember why. 😂
Another great video.
Gentle Giant were absolutely amazing. I think it's their background in soul that made them 'feel' so good.
I also like t5he way the album cover slowly moved so that you were a giant for the day.
You didn't mention Let Me Know You by one of my heroes, Stanley Clarke.
It's awful
if you take the right drugs, all the album covers slowly move, and you can become a giant for the rest of infinity
Ahhh....ELP's Love Beach with the Bee Gee's album cover. A meme long before anyone knew what a "meme" was.
I have a bit of a soft spot for Memoirs of an Officer and Canario. They were okay, but there's no denying ELP did much better with their earlier long, multipart compositions from earlier in their career and same with their classical interpretations. They're no wear near the quality of Trilogy, Karn Evil 9, Endless Engima, even Pirates in their own multi part comps or Knife Edge, Hoedown, Fanfare from the adaptations.
Your high points of the album match mine. Memoirs is still IMO an underappreciated work, and Canario still rocks... but the rest.... Rubbish! Haha!
Agree. I also like "The Gambler", but the rest is Lake's worst side way out front and center.
@@floydgrove6486
Yeah. He seemed to really, really want to be a 70s ballad singer.
Sometimes when I want to be unhappy I put on Love Beach, Giant for a Day and Tormato.
Love the sense of humor. Lol
I quite enjoy Tormato...different strokes.
Tormato isn't as bad as Drama, 90125, Big Generator and everything that came later. To me it's the last true Yes album!
@@lemming9984 Drama is much better than Tormato, which sounds terrible.
@@lemming9984 Really love Drama but think they lost it with Bug Generator (was gonna write "Big" but kept the finger slip 😉)
I feel Love Beach won't be getting any Love in this video :)
"I'm gonna make love to you, on love beach
Make all your dreams come true, on love beach
Gonna make love to you, on love beach
Gonna make your dreams come true, on love beach
Gonna make love to you, on love beach..."
Greg used it all up on Love Beach...
The wheels came off Genesis for me when on hearing a tune on the radio, I would be thinking, 'is this a new Genesis or Phil Collins song'?
Also I recall when 'another day in paradise' came out, Genesis being featured on the money section of a newspaper ( this was the 'wall street' era, don't forget)
about how they were investing in office blocks. > sigh
I have that Gadabout album too...talk about underwhelmed...
Pretty good analysis. Glad you mentioned the 1994 album by Pat Metheny, Zero Tolerance For Silence. I love most
of Pat’s albums but when I put the vinyl on I thought it had been distorted in the pressing, it is just a complete wall
of distorted noise, an absolute stinker of an album from someone who should have known better.
I wondered how many think likewise...
I almost think he was trying to pull a Lou Reed "Metal Machine Music" kind of thing.
Good to get a heads up on those albums which truly plumb the Mariana Trench of abysmalness if that's a word. Still, when it's the work of well respected musicians it helps me live with my own musical indescetions and learn to appreciate the advantages of artisic obscurity.
Don't worry too much about forgetting Tony Banks's name. I forgot my own address yesterday. I've only lived here five years.
I caught something on camera there...I had to keep it in...
Zero Tolerance for Silence is a bit like that Record by that Guy from that Famous Band was covered by „Zeitkratzer“.
„Metal Machine Music“? by Lou Reed?
I remember watching a L. Shankar video and some blond was just sitting there, doing nothing. On subsequent vids she woukd ‘grace’ an L. Shankar performance. I haven’t the album you mention but I’m looking for it. I know you were being serious about this topic but it was quite funny and entertaining. Ugh! That cover of Love Beach…….what were they thinking?!?
Land Of Cockayne by Soft Machine comes immediately to mind.
WHATTT !!!!!!!????
In terms of "This Is This", Monty Python perhaps showed how it's done: if it's a contractional obligation album just call it as such. : )
I love the way the Gentle Giant album cover slowly creeps across the screen. LOL You mentioned the 80s production sound. How do you define that? I hated a lot of the music in the 80s. I didn't like Invisible Touch or We Can't Dance either.... I do like some of the Mike & the Mechanics. They had a couple of amazing lead singers. And, hey, I can't remember names anymore to save my life. On the Weather Report albums, now you're just showing of....
The 80s saw an explosion in terms of technology as the digital age slowly reared it's head. A lot of music at the time was groundbreaking at the time in the way it used that technology. That technology would be drum machines, music sequencing, gigital audio effects and sampling. I think the problem was when established seventies acts tried to use these technologies to seem relevant, when in reality it showed how irrelevant they actually were. Yes use them brilliantly on 90125 for example. ELP's Power of Three however is not so successful....
You're giving me PTSD, reminding me of the Epidemics record. I was a college-radio DJ when that came out, was super excited and so sadly disappointed -- nay, *hurt* -- by it, in the listening. I also saw them live, opening for The Golden Palominos (with Jack Bruce, among others). Live they were just as bad as the record. And that was my first live experience of Percy Jones.... eventually, I got better.
Speaking of fabulously naff album covers, Throbbing Gristle's '20 Jazz Funk Greats' is my personal favourite. It belongs to that late 70s period of fuzac that Andy describes. At that time jazz fusion was hated as much by punks and post punks as the more traditionally reviled prog!
For me the most amazing thing about “zero tolerance” is that it sounds like someone with zero technique on the guitar. How is that possible? I often wonder if decided to play left handed in order to divorce himself from his musical past…. Also it is amazing how sincere he is about how honest he was in its making. I adore song x
I agree...and you didn't need to add that little kiss at the end of the comment, but it's appreciated....
I recall hearing that Pat recorded this because he was fed up with being told his music was Easy Listening music. I also agree that Song X is a great album and very underrated.
Xoxo…. Cheeky
Yes Danny, I too forget names.
I've just listened to a few minutes of the Pat Metheny album. It reminded me of Metal Machine Music by Lou Reed. Reed made that appalling record to fulfil a contract, apparently. Did Pat Metheny have a similar excuse for creating such a pile of shit? If not, I can't imagine why he recorded it and after recording it and, presumably, listening back to it, decided to release it. It's not a masterpiece. It's musical masturbation.
Anthony Garone of Make Weird Music sees Zero Tolerance For Silence as an avant noise rock album. He also sees a connection between Zero Tolerance and the Dillinger Escape Plan. You might want to check out what he has to say about it
I first picked up the album when I saw a sticker quoting a rave review by Thurston Moore. Being a big Sonic Youth fan, that was enough for me. I've come to really like it. And I have tons of respect for Pat Metheny's work on Song X and his willingness to challenge us (and himself) from time to time.
The video is titled: WTF!? Noise Rock By Pat Metheny?!?
I will check it out. For me the jury is out. Derek Bailey I get and I love. Pat doesn't seem to be pursuing that. It's not like Sonny Sharrock either. To me it sounds like someone un sure of that sonic area trying to get into that area. There is something about it that is really unconvincing, especially on the long track.
Who is the keyboard player in Genesis, is it: Robin Banks, River Banks, Piggy Banks or Memory Banks?
Definitely not memory banks....
river phoenix, rivers cuomo...greg kihn, greg ginn...
So, we should be aware of albums with Pun titles? In that case, I'll steer clear of 'Miles Ahead' and 'Milestones' by Miles Davis.
Great stuff, but I'm not sure if Calling All Stations deserves to be here. Maybe if they had employed David Longdon the sound might have been more what they needed at that time. Plus his great writing and instrumental skills....... Ray Wilson is a great singer but too "rock" for Genesis I think. keep up the good work!
The Weather Report and Genesis albums aren't as terrible as the others, but those two bands are arguably the greatest bands in fsuion and prog, so I judge them by their own high standards
I don't think Calling All Stations was that bad but I do remember my first time listening to it, I played it all the way through. That's unusual for me because most albums have a few songs that I don't like and have to jump to the next song.
Yeah, that Epidemics is a total headscratcher. I found a copy in a thrift store for ninety-nine cents and thought I had struck gold until I got home and played it. It sounded terrible right off the bat! I pull it out every few years to see if my feelings have changed (it has been known to happen on occasion!), but I can never make it through the whole thing! Original copies of Love Beach, BTW, came with a fold-out insert where you could order a pair of authentic Love Beach jogging shorts! I have the insert!!!
That Epidemics album could be used to get rid of party guests who won't go home.
@@TheOwl 🤣 A guaranteed room-clearer! lol
Thks for not picking any albums I love. Or did you and I can't remember?
OMG as an ECM absolute devotee, I can do nothing but agree about the Shankar album you mentionned, I mean what were they thinking ? It's beyond bad, it's truly horrendous.
It was hard coming up with truly awful albums but that one is truly awful....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I need to hear this for myself. I'll comment after I listen to it.
And that hurt my brain. What the hell was that?
Tony Kaye and Peter Banks ..... I still listen to those early Yes albums and even bought the first Flash album and the sole Badger album (which I think is an exceptionally good live album and even lives on as the ring tone on my phone). If I were to sum up the best musicians on those albums I might well use the portmanteau term "Tony / Banks. 😂
I don't blame you, the line up changed in those bands aré almost preposterous!
I just listened to a few moments of Love Beach -- seemed fine. It's gotta be all about the cover
Im surprised Jethro Tull's Under Wraps didnt make the list?
I remember buying _"Love Beach",_ putting it on my turntable, and for some songs I was just staring at the speakers and thinking "What is this? What is happening here?" ... and not in a good way. I pretty much stopped listening to ELP after that, except that very occasionally I'll play their debut album, or a few songs off of _"Works (Volume 1)"._
_"... Calling All Stations..."_ was also a big miss for me, but it didn't trigger a backlash against their other albums. I still like and play most of their earlier albums.
Take the Love Beach Lp with a block of salt as this was their last album of their recording contract with Atlantic. Atlantic's president and power mogul Ertegun pressured them into doing a more commercial angled compositions. You can read all about that online, its well known facts. Emerson hated the Lp but they needed to do it and be done with the contract. So take it for what it is and dont try to listen to it as an ELP album but just soem songs thrown together. I dont mind the tracks like Memoirs as it harks back to earlier ELP greatness. Side 1 short tracks are meant to be radio friendly and a little catchy . Could they have done much better ? perhaps, but they were totallly burnt out from touring and sick of each other at that point. Now you want to talk about how to make a modern times Heavy hitter of an album ? Listen to Emerson , Lake and Powell Now that is a great 80s record !
@@optimus163 - interesting. I wasn't aware of the backstory of that album.
I used to own both the Metheny and the Epidemics albums and was excited to hear them both but was astounded at how little esthetic merit there was in either. Such misfires. As a kid I remember trying to make a piece of “modern, abstract assemblage” painting with no foreknowledge of the historical development that lead to the various tenets of modernism. I had no idea what I was trying for or what my actual aim was. Of course the end product ended up in the trash bin. That’s my generous assessment of their perhaps naive approach to something that they simply didn’t come to naturally. Definitively head-scratchers. I can give L Shankar a pass because of the cultural differences; going from essentially the Indian classical tradition to New Wave pop is indeed a stretch. Metheny on the other hand sounds like he’s trying to divorce himself entirely from the sonic palette of his earlier work which was devoid of distortion and bombast. It’d be great if they were interesting failures rather than misguided posturing?
I'm a big fan of many of the bands that you like, such as Gentle Giant, Brand X, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jan Hammer, Jeff Beck, John McLaughlin, U.K., etc. Call me weird, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I love the album This Is This. It's actually my favorite album by Weather Report. I also don't have a problem with Giant For A Day. I think it's underrated and it's a very good album!
The fact you didn't mention Love Beach is damning...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer How can you compare Love Beach to This Is This and Giant For A Day?! I think Love Beach is total rubbish!
One of the few prog bands to play convincing punk was The Tubes. I will not forget just how shocked I was when I heard the ferocity of of Telecide. Great as it was, I much prefer their earlier proggy material.
Ahhh, i don't remember the name ( and i don't feel like Google It in this moment) but they have annalbyn with a baby innthe cover. I like that one, it's pretty good
@@lamecasuelas2 Remote Control - the one with Telecide
I agree! Only discovered them recently. They found such a great niche for themselves
Love Metheny but not Zero Tolerance. Listened to it only once. Wondered if the famously straight-laced Pat had succumbed to some LSD or something.
"incidental music off a My Little Ponies movie" is wonderful.
Thanks.
The Missing Piece was the first Gentle Giant album I bought and I loved it and bought their back catalog and realized that The Missing Piece was not all that. Octopus might be my favorite. But Giant For A Day is awful. However Citizen is not bad. Andy's assessment is spot on (for me).
After listening to the album, did you have zero tolerance for silence?
I remember being literally pissed off when I saw that "Giant for a Day" cover. I bought it anyway and brought it home and was horrified after putting it on the turntable.
Awful Cover...
That's definitely their worst
It's so bad you need to hear it
Ohh my God I am crackin up over here : watch the Giant for a Day album cover drift across the screen ( 21:35 ) in front of Andy's face as he trashes this one !
Just had a quick breeze through ‘The Epidemics’. It’s unadulterated cack. Astonishing (and a little reassuring) that great musicians can make such egregious shit. I’m gonna recommend it to all my pals!
L Shankar, Percy Jones, Steve Vai....this should have been the greatest band of all time!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Unbelievable.
Just looked up the dictionary definition of Lame which says 'unconvincing or unsatisfactory' that could easily apply to the 7 you mentioned, though you could also have called some of them lousy albums as in very bad.
As you may recall I am a big ELP fan and would agree with what you say in the comments that Love Beach will never be a favourite of any ELPfan, and nomits not a favourite of mine though I do prefer it just over Works 2 and In the Hot Seat which I find to be their least good one. Basically for me ELP stopped being Greta after LAdies and Gentlemen, Works 1 had its moments but also sowed the seeds for Works 2 and Love Beach. I dont disagree with what you say about them not being able to write pop music in the same way that Genesis and Yes were able to, however from what i've read I think they were forced into doing it by Ahmet Ertegun who wanted hits, and that during the making of it they basically disintegrated amongst themselves leaving it in an unfinished underproduced state. The really awful song, with some of the worst lyrics ever - Taste ofyour love - could well have been a piss take however not sure if anyone got the joke. I admit that I do listen to it now and again, but thats more to do with being a fan than not - Ken Golden also made a valid point in saying that some of the dissatisfaction with it comes from the lack of the sound of Emerson's Organ, that was an essential element of ELP music. If you want a real stinker from the wider ELP family have you heard Carl Palmers PM 1:PM? As a fan I had to get it but its the epitome of lame.
Didnt know the Shankar or the Gadd though as you say I am intrigued, so thanks to Deezer and You Tube have given them a listen. The Epidemics reminded me of another really lame prog album - Rick Wakeman's Rock N Roll Prophet, its the synth bas sound that does that. If there were no singing on the Epidemics it may just pass as a mid 80's curio, but as soon as the vocals (?) come in it sucks.
Steve Gadd - is an ok listen, wouldnt ever say I'd go to it on any regularity though - I wonder if you find this to be lame becasue of the expectation behind it, and as you say there are a few Stanley Clarkes that could be included.
I did once listen to the Metheny - once being enough - found it again on You Tube, listened for half a minute, first impressions were right, its just noise really, or at least it is to me - would prefer to listen to Brotzman's Machine Gun.
Genesis karked it with We Cant Dance but then gave a hint that they may go back to something a bit more prog when they did a snippet from Suppers Ready when Wilson joined, but thats all they ever did, a snippet. Ray Wilson is a fine singer but I think the album fails due to Banks not creating anything memorable and Rutherford being too Mike & the Mechanics - thats a band that I just do not have any time for, total corporate wallpaper paste as far as i'm concerned. It came out in 97 just at a poit when Neo Prog badns were starting to get a bit of traction - if they'd done a proper Prog album hen they could have been the trailblasers for IQ, Arena, Jadis et al and while Yes had come back with one ofthe bigger piles of doo doo they'd ever recorded at least they still did prog on it and the much better follow up. Talking of Yes, Heaven and Earth could have been acontender, though theres something about that album that to me has a certain charm, its not their best but its just about good enough - one of the many mediocre middling ones you mentioned.
Gentle Giant - dont think there's many who would disagree as to the it being worthy of inclusion here, I m not gong to.
Weather report - again ok but is that what we want from a Weather Report album?
Zero Tolerance for Silence is practically unlistenable. It is a statement perhaps in SOME way. But one not to be repeated.
Went to the "Giant For a Day" show in Rochester, NY. They were passing out those stupid cardboard heads. The concert was going well until they started with the music from the new album. It did not go over well with the crowd. Lot of those cardboard heads were thrown towards the stage. Gary Green the guitar player was giving thumbs up the crowd and the drummer was flipping us off. The show was ended with some great Giant classics, and all was well. BUT we knew we had seen the end of an era.
Thats an interesting story...they must have known what they had done???
I’m writing this, because it’s a good way to see what my name is, that I just forgot. Welcome to the club, Andy. It will only get worse.
Ouch ... Calling All Stations gets put down way too much and is actually one of my "go to" Genesis albums .... and I have got them all and am ok with all eras ... CAS gets played a lot .... especially the equivalent of Side 1 if it were an LP .... I would buy a deluxe version of this (with b sides, associated recordings and a live show from the European shows that were done) without hesitation ... if you have not heard the album give it a go ... approach with an open mind ... I think the album is due a reappraisal now 20+ years have lapsed ... this line up could have evolved given time .... for me, at least, Calling All Stations just works .... beats We Can't Dance, And Then There Were Three, Side 1 of Wind & Wuthering ... as I say, from my perspective .... Got to agree though with your view of Pat Metheny's Zero Tolerance For Silence album ... total "mince" .... CMcG, Aberdeen, Scotland
I bought Love Beach when it came out and it was my first ELP album. I must admit I enjoyed it so much I went out and bought all their other albums and liked them even more although I always have a problem with Greg Lake's' side of Works Vol1.The funny thing is, all these years later I still enjoy Love Beach. I like their versions of Canarios, I like Memoirs Of An Officer And A Gentleman especially the piano solo, I even like the opening track. You are right it's not Pop or Prog.I call it Prog Lite. No, the real stinker for me is their very last LP In The Hot Seat. That album is an absolute horror and should never have been recorded.
I agree with you about Giant For A Day-GG were losing their way with that album. Having said that for what it is, it's still a listenable album. Genesis also should have bowed out when Collins left rather than produce that weak Calling All Stations Album.
Not all groups produced their worst albums at the tail end of their career. I know I am going to upset some fans but much as I love Santana I absolutely cannot stand Caravanserai -it just bores me to tears. Also Pink Floyd really hit a bum note with Ummagumma with its aimless experimentation and yet I really like their earlier and later albums so there you go.
There is the cultural idea of what is good and then there is personal taste and how that relates to our personal history. I have ideas about this that go against the maistream viewpoint. I try and get them in the background of my videos.
I agree. The cover does blow, but Memoirs, and Canario elevate this album, but let's talk about "In the hot seat".
Don't like Lake's Works V1 side? I love Emerson for sure, but I think Lake was one of the most unique pop song writers and talented lyricists to come down the pike. Some of the most beautiful & honest simple songs are on there, harkening back to his KC days.
Never heard Giant For A Day, but I've always loved Civilian! Missing Piece had Memories Of Old Days, one song worth the price of admission to a disappointing album.
Question: Have you ever heard David Sancious?
Yes...watch my overlooked prog classics video...
David Sancious is an incredible musician, primarily a keyboard player but a truly awesome guitarist.
I know that David S once fell into the same pot with Bruce S and The Epidemics and that horrible music was mixed up in the process.
Is that why you're asking about him?
@@narosgmbh5916 The first time I head his debut album Forest of Feelings, I loved his solo music, and all his albums.
@Mark
you asked in general.I was thinking you ask foxy......because with his friend bruce together he was also involved in some of this crazy popmusic L Shankar fabricated
Not sure whether I should be relieved that Greenslade weren’t on the list, or concerned that you haven’t mentioned them! They’re not the greatest, boundary pushing Prog band of all time, but they produced some pretty good music (in my opinion!), great keyboard playing, great drumming, and Tony Reeves on bass. 😊
In my opinion, better than Greenslade is Dave Lawson's band right before that called Samurai, great album from 71 more jazzy than Greenslade, so more fusion per se, and less prog (greenslade is prog not fusion or jazz rock). Samurai is more jazz rock and perhaps slightly canterbury in places, with harder driving organ, and better vocals by Dave there too. And on a similar bent I prefer Dave Greenslade's previous band too...Colosseum...an early UK jazz rock band, especially the later ones with Chris Farlowe on vocals (who went on to join Atomic Rooster soon after)
@@RocknJazzer so, off down the Dave Lawson rabbit hole I went! Now listening to Web’s I Spider album. Web just before they became Samurai, so similar sounding, but you can hear the Greenslade to come, I think. Thanks for the pointer!
@@johnpace5774 Yes the Web i spider is great too, but my fave is the Samurai album from 70/71, which is the last Web lineup. There were 2 Webs before Spider with a different singer than dave, not as good imo. There was also another Samurai band with a 1970 s/t album, not to be confused with the Lawson one. That other band was a guy from Japan named Miki Curtis (prob not his real japanese name, lol) who moved to england to make that album, which is half japanese half english members. Not as good at the lawson band, not really jazz rock but similar era sounds (hammond organs, etc). That album has a pic of a Samurai face in Kabuki makeup. The Lawson one has a japanese man and woman "relaxing" shall we say
@@RocknJazzer yep. Dave’s Samurai album is definitely a good listen, with echoes of another favourite of mine from the early 70’s, Jade Warrior. I miss those days……….
Once, I was walking up a street on in the West Village, NYC, and I passed a tall, thin man with short black hair who was sitting on the sidewalk, crying and shouting, "Please give me some money. I need money." I would normally help out a street person in need when I could, but I thought, "Any money I give to this guy is going straight into his arm." So, I kept walking. But something about his face unnerved me, and I thought of him for the rest of the day. I couldn't think of anything else. Then it struck me. I knew that face. I knew who he was. It was Jaco. He was sitting right around the corner of the basketball courts he pretty much lived in toward the end of his life. I would've known who he was immediately if he didn't cut his hair short. I was devastated, and I still feel terrible guilt for not doing anything to help him. Some people say to me when I tell them this story, "Doesn't matter. There was nothing you could've done to help him. He was too far gone," but it still bothers me to this day. RIP Jaco. Sorry I just walked by you.
Incredible story. Heartbreaking...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I swear, he was the Van Gogh of our times.
If the GG album cover was a NOMEANSNO cover it would be brilliant! Do you know this amazing Canadian band, Andy? Horrible album covers, composed deliberately to deter the listener, BUT incredible compositions and musicianship. I've always argued they could possibly be the greatest band of all time! Possibly a ridiculous assertion, but when you hear them you'll see my point! Fading Lights is a wonderful piece of prog as what should have been Genesis' swansong imo! PS. I'm 54 and me Mum has never got my name right the first time!!!
I wonder, if things had been slightly different, whether Calling All Stations would have existed. I'm specifically thinking about the choice between the shortlisted pair Ray Wilson and the much missed David Longdon to replace Phil. I'm not decrying Wilson, who has proved himself an excellent musician, but If they had chosen Longdon, they'd have got themselves a reincarnation of Peter Gabriel, up to and including the creative input. Maybe that's the very reason Banks and Rutherford didn't choose him -- feeling it would have been a retrogression.
I suppose I'm relieved they didn't in the end, or else we might not have had those wonderful years of Big Big Train' fronted by Longdon (whose only similarity with early Genesis apart from the voice is the [steam age rather than Victorian] English folk themes).
I knew davis Longdon, not well, but well enough to sit down and have a good chat. he was an incredibly gifted artist with an amazing voice. I once heard him sing without a mic, and he was incredibly powerful. Interesting thought what he would have done with Genesis. I beleive a return to their prog roots for that album would have been an interesting twist at the end of their career. Their pop career was over by then so why not?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer : I wonder if it is true that several recordings of the songs that made it onto the final Calling All Stations album also exist, in some vault somewhere, with David Longdon’s vocals on them. I have a vague recollection of reading something a long time ago suggesting that Banks and Rutherford listened to finished recordings of both Ray Wilson and David Longdon, side by side/one after another and came down on the side of RW in the end….
Going “…all Jeremy Clarkson…” is a real kick in the knackers…! 😂
But, all joking aside, I think that Calling All Stations is another one of those that takes time to grow on you. It’s got some great moments on there. In fact, many more great moments than bad ones! It takes a little bit of investment in time and listening to reveal itself. One Man’s Fool is probably the best piece on the album.
If you want to point out a real bad album, really bad that is, then look no further than the absolutely godawful dirge called The Final Cut by Pink Floyd (Roger Waters). It’s a real shocker…
I actually enjoy that Metheny record, but I have to be in the mood.
Don't feel bad, I make the same mistake all the time with The Banks.
I knew not to criticise Pat...
Yeah. There's Peter Banks, Tony Banks, & Tony Kaye. ;-O
I agree that Genesis lost it when Steve Hackett left.
I think they may find It on Lamb Lies Down....just need to look where you last had it....
“Pop hits are so cheap and easy to make. Let me show you how its done:”
Love Beach! That was the turd that broke the camels back for me and I never bought another album by them. "I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight!" is the worst lyric by anyone in any genre ever.
'My little pony'. Classic comment. Made me laugh.
To me ELP at best were poppy ,wtf that album sounded like , I don’t want to know . Really enjoy your insight into these things .
How about the 10 lamest biscuits as a vid?
I'll start it with Bourbon Creams!
Disagree!
One bourbon cream cost me two fillings. That's bad but not lame
It seems that this point of view is a bit influeced by the equation: if an album is a commercial success it mustn't be bad (for example that horrible Yes "Owner of a Lonely Heart" album isn't included) . On the contrary there are albums that didn't deserved to be on the black list... For example ELP's Love Beach features one of their best compositions (the 20 minutes long "Memoirs"); Genesis' "Calling All Stations" is also a very good album , stronger and more inventive than many previous Genesis records of the Eighties era
that happens to be so funny because then I was trying to remember the keyboardist for YES which is ALSO named Tony but I coulnt remember his last name and then it came to me ...........Tony Kaye
Lots of good points here including that "Duke" was the pinnacle of Genesis. Don't agree at all with Genesis's Calling all Stations being on this list. Though without Phil, "Not About Us" is perhaps Genesis's best ballad of all time.
Agree 100% with you. I am a huge Pat Metheny fan, but I have zero tolerance for that piece of crap he calls an ‘album’
I've got another one... just tried to listen to "Land Of Cockayne' from (well the cover says:) Soft Machine. Oy.
I love that album. It introduced me to Allan Holdsworth
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Bundles
Seeing that John Handy album...yeah, wow, what a disappointment. Loved Handy on MINGUS AT CARNEGIE HALL (very early Jazz album for me). Got Handy's HARD WORK. It's an R&B album. At least it has Chuck Rainey on it.
That Marienthal album...love, love "Schmooze". I am sure I bought it 'cause the side guys are just A-Listers.
Have that Pat Metheny. Almost thirty years later and I still can’t get a handle on it.
Hysterically accurate. I don’t know The Epidemics, and I will stay away.
Late 70s fusion, even when made by awesome musicians, is missing something. If Jaco had been popular on the scene 5 years earlier I'd be listening to his work a lot more. The production and imagination was down, perhaps technical ability and cohesion increased
Giant For A Day is indeed pretty awful, but it does have some redeeming features. Probably an unpopular opinion but I think Thank You is a great song, albeit a bit repetitive, and features one of Derek Shulman's finest vocals. That said, I could listen to Derek singing the phone book and enjoy it. Words To The Wise is also very good, even if it outstays its welcome a little bit, and Little Brown Bag, complete with its tune borrowed from The Kinks Tired Of Waiting refrain, is good fun and features some very nice Gary Green rock guitar.
Rest of it is largely poor though. Decent-ish corporate pop/rock album, in a way, but certainly not a great Gentle Giant album.
So many seem to love Abacab and I can’t understand it, the worst and pretty much the end for me! Never could take to Collins as a solo artist. I actually quite liked a couple of tunes on Calling…..
Did you know Francis Dunnery was auditioned for Genesis before this album.
Yep...I heard that....and the late great David Longdon
Love Beach is low hanging fruit, but you just can't leave it off any list of LAME prog. It's the poster child album for LAME prog. Gentle Giant's "Giant for a Day" is embarrassing. As you say, they were a victim of the uncompromising excellence they demonstrated. Reverting to Simon Dupree? Hard to say, but it is a stinker. What happened, Gentle Giant? I like your example of artists that were able to successfully navigate the nexus between emerging pop forms, like new wave and punk, with progressive rock. Robert Fripp is a great example of someone who successfully made totally new music in this nexus zone.
I found it hard to really come up with stinkers for this list. I'm hoping there will be some suggestions in the comments as it was fun doing this one...
Yeah but you know Eric when Andy got to that point in the video...talking about Fripp and Gabriel...they did SURVIVE prog but the music they subsequently made ISN'T prog music. Hell, try telling Fripp that ANYTHING King Crimson made was prog and you'll definitely get some blowback ! 😂
Mike Oldfield produced Earth Moving, a pop sounding concept album. Often considered to be his worst album by far. When I first listened to it, I thought they had mislabeled it. He was trying to be commercial with a collection of pop tunes song by different vocalists.