@@spaak3465 I wish there were a lot more of us. I was very atheistic for a long time after leaving, I feel like most exJWs who were born into the religion become atheists after leaving. I realized, after listening to Jonathan (and many others) on Orthodoxy, that I never had a good understanding of traditional Christianity at all. The more I learn about the original Church, the more I realize how evil and occult the JW ideology really is.
Ex Jaydub here. I'm so happy that there are more of us. My Godparents are also ex jaydubs. I always had a sense that we were wrong but I had noooooooooo idea how wrong until I became Orthodox. Thank the Holy Trinity that I'm not a witness anymore!🙏☦
There's an Orthodox prayer that says, "...and the Prophets which have been since the world began". The Church may have only come into existence in 33 AD but the Wisdom of God that the Church teaches was there at the begining with the first man when language was one and religion was one as man was one. Nothing came before Christianity in fact because nothing came before God.
Exactly, this division between the Old Covenant priesthood and the new is a protestant invention to cope with their abolition of the priesthood. The Holy Forefathers and Mothers in the Old Testament were preincarnation Christians that's why we venerate them as saints. Christianity is the continuation and fulfillment of the worship in the Old Testament.
I mean, isn’t the concept of conversion Christianity’s whole thing? To take something-especially a “bad” thing like the Roman cross-and reclaim it as something God has made holy? Just as God takes the worst of sinners and transforms them into saints, Christianity takes existing traditions and transforms them into something that points to the Jesus story and glorifies God. A lot of the “gotcha” statements people make about Christmas having pagan roots doesn’t need to be so scandalous to a religion so already-scandalous as Christianity (we worship a God who chose to be born amongst farm animals and die a slave’s death). I got no problem with acknowledging that I stand on the shoulders of my pagan ancestors as well as my Christian ancestors.
Pagans were just people that forgot God and were seeing part of the Truth. You could say Christianity informed them to make their feasts on Christian dates, if they had ears to hear it.
This is exactly like an idea I encountered in G.K Chesterton - that Christianity "reaches down" and draws up earlier, incomplete Pagan traditions into itself - and through doing that completes them.
I've heard it put, that when Orthodox Christianity encounters a new culture, it burns off the things that are irreconcilable with Christianity, and baptizes the things that are good.
You could designate any other day of the year, and you would find that at some point it was related to something outside Christianity. The time around winter solstice is naturally suitable for holidays. You cannot work on the fields, you cannot go to war, you cannot really do anything, so it's quite normal that you have time for spiritual practices, resting, and celebration.
@@LKRaider I haven't watched it since back then, but it veers off into trying to falsify Christianity by claiming that Christ is based on earlier pagan religious myths. It then goes on to make completely fabricated claims of other gods to equate them to Jesus. These claims ended up getting parroted in comment sections ever since.
It caught me up for a bit but I would say did help in some significant, albeit strange way…. One of many stepping stones towards Christ. But definitely had me astray with Gnosticism as well. Hard to say if a thing is good or bad without context. The path through the thicket varies, I suppose.
Yep, you're right. That film was created with the critical thinking of 12 year olds but somehow managed to convince a lot of people, probably because it just told them exactly what they wanted to hear.
If you look through past videos Jonathan has, it's extremely unsatisfying when he attempts to talk to someone who has the slightest blindness towards their materialist world view. There is a certain level that you need to be in order to engage properly with Jonathan, and the people on that level are not plentiful.
Jonathan Pagaeu you´re a very smart person, excuse my english im not american im from a spanish speaking country in america and im trying to become a good philosopher
I would rather celebrate the biblical feasts than Christmas. Most Christians can’t even name the biblical feasts let alone when they occur. So much good theology in the feasts and help us understand the times and the seasons. You can build a whole framework around the feasts and teach your children the whole narrative of the old testament and how these feast days were for filled by Christ first coming and point to coming events. What does Christmas teach the kids? I think Christmas and Easter are counterfeit Christian holidays. Our children are missing out on son much by celebrating the wrong holidays.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. -Colossians 2:16
In Colossus the people were being judged for learning to KEEP Sabbath, New Moons, etc.... as they were coming out of the PAGAN celebrations and traditions because they were GENTLES. The Feasts listed are the ones from the front of your Bible, the ones Paul KEPT. They were being judged for KEEPING GOD'S FEASTS. It's like someone NOT keeping Christ's Mass today and their family and friends judging them as SCROOGE.
Je vous ecris en francais depuis Québec : Une vidéo qui m'a ouvert lesprit sur cette question de la continuation et de l'intégration d'élément paiens dans le symbolisme et la tradition chrétienne
Fencing Bear at Prayer (Dr. Rachel Fulton Brown) had a great episode of her Mosaic Ark podcast about this back around Christmas, and Reason and Theology (Michael Lofton) recently had a episode where a guest was detailing some Old Testament instances of "baptizing" pagan culture, like the temple. This is a very Protestant/Neo-Gnostic issue that keeps popping up, especially from the "Enlightenment" onward. I know people who refuse to celebrate Christmas or who are suspicious that Easter, of all holidays, is pagan because in English it sounds similar to an alleged pagan goddess's name rather than calling it Pasca, like most of the rest of Latin Catholicism. I want to scream every time I hear that Santa=Satan. Gnosticism is rampant in "truther"/conspiracy theorist circles, and they keep snaring people with these ridiculous claims and arguments.
Mr. Pagaeu, I watch yours and Mr. Peterson’s work a lot, and i have a lot of respect for you. My family does celebrate Christmas, but we do not do buy a tree, we were not raised to believe in Santa Claus, and we do not leave cookies out for him. This is where my family takes issue. Telling small children to believe in a being which is all seeing “knows when your naughty or nice” and is literally offered cookies like an idol. You did not touch on this at all, and I hope that maybe you could share your view in this area. I dont really find too much problem with Christmas as a day of Jesus’ birth, but I do think that many MANY people have fully lost site of God and Jesus on Christmas, and we should give this more attention than your short 10 minute video. Is there not more to dig into and look more closely? I would very much like to hear your thoughts in this area. . While i might not write the whole day off as “Pagen” I do find most modern Christian’s I talk to be to practice this “Santa Christmas” to a level which i cannot agree with, and it certainly verges on edge of idol worship and certainly resembling some pagen ideas, and not Christian focused.
I think Jonathan is referring a lot to how the Orthodox celebrate Christmas. We have a rich and full celebration. We do a 40 day fast up until Christmas, than there is a Bright Week with celebrating the 12 days of Christmas. The bible readings and liturgical services all go through this time of fasting and celebration. The center is on Christ through the whole season. So having a Christmas tree and presents and decorations do not deter from this richness. Yes, people do lose site of the meaning of Christmas because Protestant churches have completely done away with the liturgical year and so Christians from these churches have nothing to fill their days up with, the only choice is to repress and take away traditions of our modern world. So the Christians are left dry and thirsty. The churches do not fill them up with a rich Christmas season so either people just embrace the modern traditions which last nearly a month and than have one day on Christmas that maybe go to church and talk about God or Christians are left to avoid all modern Christmas traditions and left dry. Both are bad. The Orthodox church and to some extent the Catholic church has for centuries given Christians a rich Christmas season and still be able to enjoy some of the modern traditions that we have. The balance is beautiful and I am so thankful to God for giving this to us! We all need times of joy.
Santa Claus is the story of Saint Nicholas. You can teach about Saint Nicholas. But if you’re a fundamental evangelical, then you probably think that saints in Catholicism/Orthodox Christianity are idols as well so 🤷♀️. Progressive Christianity = Modern Christians assuming they know better than all the Christians before them.
Our reality encompasses everything, including every religion which existed before Christ. That reality is integrated within, and by, Christ. The elements of every other religion are integrated within Christianity. But within that framework we can see those elements for what they are: good or evil. Some are one, some are the other. PS Mr Pageau you do some wonderful work. Thank you and keep it up, while you can.
I used to believe this garbage, I am so sick of people promoting this claim. Not only Christmas but the other holidays as well. Inspiring Philosophy and History for Athiest have done some good work debunkings these claims.
Personally I would approach the issue from the historical perspective of patterns and how they are reflected in our daily rituals. The evolution of man's relations with the religious dimension is one of deepening, first at the level of awareness and then at the level of transposition more and more clearly into concepts, thus forming a dogma that reflects the pre-existing patterns as clearly as possible. Dogma is a procedural exposition, a recipe for alignment, and religion is that type of dogma by which man is helped to put into practice those rituals that reflect the patterns of existence and finally to become aware of the pattern under which the patterns of existence are subordinated. From this perspective, we can accept the lack of contradiction between the customs that were eventually preserved and integrated into the ritual that expresses the most complex and complete dogmatic form that Christianity has offered us.
Also there was a saint who admonished Germanic tribes about their tree worship and I think the evergreen trees got used as an example of the “everlasting God” similar to how St. Patrick used the shamrock to explain the Trinity.
It's very simple. Worshiping the golden calf is wrong, but then God tells the Israélites to make giant bronze bulls to serve in the temple. No one worships a Christmas tree.
As a pagan, I dont buy that Christmas is Pagan. Theres zero evidence that is the case. Its also the case that Pagan cultures used a lunar calendar NOT a solar calendar. Some christmad practices are pagan. For instance, the burning of the Jol log is a pagan practice. However most people dont burn logs. The gift giving thing may have come from Roman Paganism, but thats not clear. The real problem is that atheists and Pagans tend to view ANY folk expression of religion as paganism. As if Christians were not also capable of folk expressions of their religions. Lastly, NO Pagan cultures had a word for their religion. Religion wasn't a concept until the Christianization of the world. A Pagan culture would have said something such as "old ways" such as in the case of the Nordic cultures.
You'll find Christians using the term "religion" only sparingly, and usually in some specific context (i.e. academic). Usually we refer to it as "the Faith".
Solstice isn’t pagan but was used by paganism. Eggs and rabbits aren’t pagan but are used by paganism. We get tripped up because we see pagans using it and think we’re using the symbolism in the same way.
@@jrob4795 Seriously? It's worth a search, manufactured holiday made up by socialists in the 60's. The founder also stabbed his girlfriend. Not my kind of party.
Their is no agreed date for the birth of christ, But there is an agreed date for the winter equinox, obviously. Infact their is no agreed year for the birth of christ either.
Most Christian Apologists: well Sol Invictus was only celebrated on the 25th of December after Christmas had already been established on the 25th... Jonathan: who cares!? (Laughs like someone who probably knows all the above and also really doesn't care)
“Nimrod started the great organized worldly apostasy from God that has dominated this world until now. Nimrod married his own mother, whose name was Semiramis. After Nimrod’s death, his so-called mother-wife, Semiramis, propagated the evil doctrine of the survival of Nimrod as a spirit being. She claimed a full-grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th, was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.”
That's not Jonathan's argument. Those people obviously aren't putting the attention of Christ first, that's not what was asked. It was asked whether the holiday of Christmas is pagan, and it's not. Look at how Eastern Orthodox or Ethiopian Orthodox celebrate Christmas and ask yourself is that what you tried to describe in the comments? If you're honest, you'll see that no, what they(the Orthodox) do is far richer and deeper and pertains to Christ.
Jeremiah 10:2-4 Thus says the Lord: “Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.
The only known pagan festival on the 25th December was for Sol Invictus which was only instituted a few decades after Christmas had been instituted. Also, solstices only seem to be biggish deals in Northern latitudes and by the time Christianity made serious headways into those areas Christmas had been instituted in the Mediterranean for several centuries, in fact even as late as the medieval period the biggest deal in the year was still Easter
You seem extremely dismissive even when you’re just staring at the camera, it’s almost like scolding lol I like your content but I think the tone is off
Why is the Vatican obelisk surrounded by eight spokes? The Buddhist eightfold path? The steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. A lot of bloodshed for a book.
Jesus was not born during Saturnalia. It doesn't take much digging to know how christianity literally placed their holidays right on top of pagan holidays. Same thing with churches, often built on ley lines and old pagan sites of worship and sacrifice. Such lack of integrity to not own up to these facts. So glad you asked! Yes, I'm a christian.
It doesn't need to be us vs them. Pagan doesn't equal evil, unsophisticated, etc. The Judaeo Christian tradition has tended at times to be jealous, tribal, straw-manning, reductive in its appraisal of others. If Christianity aims towards the highest goodness and harmony, of course it will integrate/recapitulate some of the deepest rhythms, goodness intuited by cultures/peoples around the world. If God is love, this includes love of the Pagan. Christianity would be better to self-reflect on where it falls short, letting itself recognize its own corruptness, blindness, greed, jealousy etc, so that it can be reborn again fresh, clean, new, and true (as per the Christian Passion).
Idk man, I'd rather get the practical knowledge of how to be a Christian from my priest, bishop, and the saints, or even trustworthy friends, rather than from some random opinionated midwit on the RUclips comments.
@@AluminiumT6 Yes, stay with the warm cocoon of what you know. For it is written love thy neighbour as long as their spirituality is not culturally alien to you.
@Joel W. Yes, of course it has. But what is being denied, true Christianity or false? Christmas & Easter is just the tip of a very large satanic iceberg.
@@glenwillson5073 you understand that Mithra and Mithras are different Gods? Mithras is Roman pagan religion and definetly not older than Christianity. Also i really do not find any real source about 25.12 date.
@@jarrilaurila Do more research. Mithra & Mithras are the same. Yes it was popular with Roman soldiers but that's only a tiny fraction of the history. Check the Persian origins. Just because we say we are doing something or other to worship God, doesn't mean God is ok with it. God tells us how to worship him, we don't tell God. The satanic rebellious substitution of Sunday for the God commanded Sabbath is the number one example of humans thinking they can tell God what to do.
This was overly defensive and dismissive. Obviously, Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, and this was the solstice celebrations that Christianity co-opted when it became the state religion. The debate isn't IF it's pagan, but if celebrating the rebirth of the sun is wrong... Or if it is the same kind of thing as Thanksgiving.
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Too many coincidental connections to be tenuous. Christ himself is a continuation of much older traditions. Christmas is no different.
honestly i see your christianity and paganism as two sides of the same coin. you seem to get hung up on the idea that pagans don't have a central creative force behind their pantheons.. i'm sure some wouldn't acknowledge it but the center of the mandala (the mandala which is also the zodiac and nature) is very much an integrating, unifying, and higher force than the periphery. the main difference i can see is that christians put emphasis on the center and (literally) demonize the margin, while the pagans i've met who are sophisticated and not internet cat girls sort of take the center for granted as a creative, integrating, yet wholly undefinable and therefore unspeakable truth. we try to understand its manifestations through the peripheral gods. those gods that christians call demons or angels when they are feeling charitable. the pagan = bad and christian = good mentality i think is coming from one direction only... and that direction is downstream from the book of moses. it's an antiquated take that a lot of christians can't seem to let go of, and i think it's a result of the jews being mistreated under the egyptian pagans.
johnathan is a very unique and exegetical soul moving the tradition forward leaps and bounds through an integration of different sources from different places in history. to pretend that johnathan's views on principalities are held by the majority of christians or the christian establishment is naive at best, and disengenuous at worst christians war against powers and principalities, from the book of ephesians. moses warned against associating with strange gods. christians have a long and glorious history of demonizing the margins. johnathan even calls pagan gods or disincarnate spirits "demons" multiple times. don't try to bullshit me, i probably know your tradition better than you do.
"It's an antiquated take that a lot of Christians can't seem to let go of" - I don't know how else to explain this to you about Christianity, but we believe in the Mosaic Law (the Ten Commandments). And a Christian can't not believe in it and still be a Christian. It may come as a surprise (especially if you haven't read it) that the First Commandment forbids idolatry (for everyone), which means it forbids paganism. Christian people won't start not being Christian just because you want them to be pagan.
In order to be praising foreign gods, one has to be actively, consciously praising them, not including some relic which has lost its original meaning over 2,500 years or more into the decorations in their house, or happening to choose the "wrong" date for their celebration.
As an ex Jehovah's Witness, thank you for this clip
Thought sure I can't be the only ex-JW watching Pageau 😅
@@spaak3465 I wish there were a lot more of us. I was very atheistic for a long time after leaving, I feel like most exJWs who were born into the religion become atheists after leaving. I realized, after listening to Jonathan (and many others) on Orthodoxy, that I never had a good understanding of traditional Christianity at all. The more I learn about the original Church, the more I realize how evil and occult the JW ideology really is.
It looks like our numbers are growing.😂 I'm also an ex-JW.
Ex Jaydub here. I'm so happy that there are more of us. My Godparents are also ex jaydubs. I always had a sense that we were wrong but I had noooooooooo idea how wrong until I became Orthodox. Thank the Holy Trinity that I'm not a witness anymore!🙏☦
May God bless you all.
I love the grandma's sweater version of Jonathan. Gives him, that extra oomph.
They all seem to have watched Big Bang Theory and think it's factually accurate.
There's an Orthodox prayer that says, "...and the Prophets which have been since the world began". The Church may have only come into existence in 33 AD but the Wisdom of God that the Church teaches was there at the begining with the first man when language was one and religion was one as man was one. Nothing came before Christianity in fact because nothing came before God.
Exactly, this division between the Old Covenant priesthood and the new is a protestant invention to cope with their abolition of the priesthood.
The Holy Forefathers and Mothers in the Old Testament were preincarnation Christians that's why we venerate them as saints. Christianity is the continuation and fulfillment of the worship in the Old Testament.
@@NavelOrangeGazer Hey, I used to follow you on Twitter before I got banned! Small world.
I mean, isn’t the concept of conversion Christianity’s whole thing? To take something-especially a “bad” thing like the Roman cross-and reclaim it as something God has made holy? Just as God takes the worst of sinners and transforms them into saints, Christianity takes existing traditions and transforms them into something that points to the Jesus story and glorifies God.
A lot of the “gotcha” statements people make about Christmas having pagan roots doesn’t need to be so scandalous to a religion so already-scandalous as Christianity (we worship a God who chose to be born amongst farm animals and die a slave’s death). I got no problem with acknowledging that I stand on the shoulders of my pagan ancestors as well as my Christian ancestors.
Pagans were just people that forgot God and were seeing part of the Truth. You could say Christianity informed them to make their feasts on Christian dates, if they had ears to hear it.
Good wording.
This is exactly like an idea I encountered in G.K Chesterton - that Christianity "reaches down" and draws up earlier, incomplete Pagan traditions into itself - and through doing that completes them.
I've heard it put, that when Orthodox Christianity encounters a new culture, it burns off the things that are irreconcilable with Christianity, and baptizes the things that are good.
exactly why Saul died 🤪
You could designate any other day of the year, and you would find that at some point it was related to something outside Christianity. The time around winter solstice is naturally suitable for holidays. You cannot work on the fields, you cannot go to war, you cannot really do anything, so it's quite normal that you have time for spiritual practices, resting, and celebration.
It’s also the day 9 months after Annunciation
@@LKRaider and seven days/one week before the end of the year
Guys watch the Zeitgeist documentary once in 2011 then become completely convinced of the mythicist theory for the next 40 years
Did that documentary touch on the topic of Christianity? I only vaguely remember it talking about the banking elites and money.
@@LKRaider I haven't watched it since back then, but it veers off into trying to falsify Christianity by claiming that Christ is based on earlier pagan religious myths. It then goes on to make completely fabricated claims of other gods to equate them to Jesus. These claims ended up getting parroted in comment sections ever since.
It caught me up for a bit but I would say did help in some significant, albeit strange way…. One of many stepping stones towards Christ. But definitely had me astray with Gnosticism as well. Hard to say if a thing is good or bad without context. The path through the thicket varies, I suppose.
Yep, you're right. That film was created with the critical thinking of 12 year olds but somehow managed to convince a lot of people, probably because it just told them exactly what they wanted to hear.
This movie led me away from Christ. Spiritually, worst 14 years of my life. Thank God as He brought me back to Him, but in a more mature way.
I love this man
Thank you Jonathan
It’s laughable that some people try to reverse engineer justification for Christmas and Easter being pagan. Laughable.
I say this as a non-believer.
"Who cares?" Yes! I have been saying this for years!
Looking forward to this
Johnathan has been eating Takis. Caught red-handed
Lmao totally, or because he is Canadian, Ketchup Chips is a more likely culprit 😂
no wonder he's so spicy lately
@@jasonthegatherer what’s the symbolism of spicy?
@@LS-et7pz Spice is an ornament to food. It bears no weight or nutritional value but elevates a dish and sets it apart.
@@lGalaxisl I wasn’t expecting a serious answer, but damn, solid symbolic analysis on culinary spices.
Thank you johnathan!
I'd love for you to debate Bart Ehrman. I don't think he's prepared for actual spiritual thinking.
Unfortunately Mr. Pageau doesn't debate or do that type of apologetics. That being said, let's be thankful for the apologetics he does.
If you look through past videos Jonathan has, it's extremely unsatisfying when he attempts to talk to someone who has the slightest blindness towards their materialist world view. There is a certain level that you need to be in order to engage properly with Jonathan, and the people on that level are not plentiful.
Jonathan Pagaeu you´re a very smart person, excuse my english im not american im from a spanish speaking country in america and im trying to become a good philosopher
I would rather celebrate the biblical feasts than Christmas. Most Christians can’t even name the biblical feasts let alone when they occur. So much good theology in the feasts and help us understand the times and the seasons. You can build a whole framework around the feasts and teach your children the whole narrative of the old testament and how these feast days were for filled by Christ first coming and point to coming events. What does Christmas teach the kids? I think Christmas and Easter are counterfeit Christian holidays. Our children are missing out on son much by celebrating the wrong holidays.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
-Colossians 2:16
In Colossus the people were being judged for learning to KEEP Sabbath, New Moons, etc.... as they were coming out of the PAGAN celebrations and traditions because they were GENTLES. The Feasts listed are the ones from the front of your Bible, the ones Paul KEPT. They were being judged for KEEPING GOD'S FEASTS. It's like someone NOT keeping Christ's Mass today and their family and friends judging them as SCROOGE.
Thank you for this! I believe that Christianity is intentionally and actively being discouraged from
Ironically, by Christians! 🤦♀️
Je vous ecris en francais depuis Québec : Une vidéo qui m'a ouvert lesprit sur cette question de la continuation et de l'intégration d'élément paiens dans le symbolisme et la tradition chrétienne
Fencing Bear at Prayer (Dr. Rachel Fulton Brown) had a great episode of her Mosaic Ark podcast about this back around Christmas, and Reason and Theology (Michael Lofton) recently had a episode where a guest was detailing some Old Testament instances of "baptizing" pagan culture, like the temple. This is a very Protestant/Neo-Gnostic issue that keeps popping up, especially from the "Enlightenment" onward. I know people who refuse to celebrate Christmas or who are suspicious that Easter, of all holidays, is pagan because in English it sounds similar to an alleged pagan goddess's name rather than calling it Pasca, like most of the rest of Latin Catholicism. I want to scream every time I hear that Santa=Satan. Gnosticism is rampant in "truther"/conspiracy theorist circles, and they keep snaring people with these ridiculous claims and arguments.
06:28 That's the equivalent of roasting coming from Jonathan.
Christmas?! That was 3 months ago!
Playing the algorithm!
Pagan!
We_____are.
Bingo! Thank you, sir! You’re absolutely correct!
Merry Christmas!
Mr. Pagaeu, I watch yours and Mr. Peterson’s work a lot, and i have a lot of respect for you. My family does celebrate Christmas, but we do not do buy a tree, we were not raised to believe in Santa Claus, and we do not leave cookies out for him. This is where my family takes issue. Telling small children to believe in a being which is all seeing “knows when your naughty or nice” and is literally offered cookies like an idol. You did not touch on this at all, and I hope that maybe you could share your view in this area. I dont really find too much problem with Christmas as a day of Jesus’ birth, but I do think that many MANY people have fully lost site of God and Jesus on Christmas, and we should give this more attention than your short 10 minute video. Is there not more to dig into and look more closely? I would very much like to hear your thoughts in this area.
.
While i might not write the whole day off as “Pagen” I do find most modern Christian’s I talk to be to practice this “Santa Christmas” to a level which i cannot agree with, and it certainly verges on edge of idol worship and certainly resembling some pagen ideas, and not Christian focused.
My thoughts too
I think Jonathan is referring a lot to how the Orthodox celebrate Christmas. We have a rich and full celebration. We do a 40 day fast up until Christmas, than there is a Bright Week with celebrating the 12 days of Christmas. The bible readings and liturgical services all go through this time of fasting and celebration. The center is on Christ through the whole season. So having a Christmas tree and presents and decorations do not deter from this richness. Yes, people do lose site of the meaning of Christmas because Protestant churches have completely done away with the liturgical year and so Christians from these churches have nothing to fill their days up with, the only choice is to repress and take away traditions of our modern world. So the Christians are left dry and thirsty. The churches do not fill them up with a rich Christmas season so either people just embrace the modern traditions which last nearly a month and than have one day on Christmas that maybe go to church and talk about God or Christians are left to avoid all modern Christmas traditions and left dry. Both are bad. The Orthodox church and to some extent the Catholic church has for centuries given Christians a rich Christmas season and still be able to enjoy some of the modern traditions that we have. The balance is beautiful and I am so thankful to God for giving this to us! We all need times of joy.
Santa Claus is the story of Saint Nicholas. You can teach about Saint Nicholas. But if you’re a fundamental evangelical, then you probably think that saints in Catholicism/Orthodox Christianity are idols as well so 🤷♀️.
Progressive Christianity = Modern Christians assuming they know better than all the Christians before them.
Great clip. Is Jonathan showing his sassy side here?
Our reality encompasses everything, including every religion which existed before Christ. That reality is integrated within, and by, Christ. The elements of every other religion are integrated within Christianity. But within that framework we can see those elements for what they are: good or evil. Some are one, some are the other.
PS Mr Pageau you do some wonderful work. Thank you and keep it up, while you can.
Most of these misunderstandings happen due to people not understanding the Astro-Theology related to the Abrahamic desert religions.
I used to believe this garbage, I am so sick of people promoting this claim. Not only Christmas but the other holidays as well. Inspiring Philosophy and History for Athiest have done some good work debunkings these claims.
Ο Χριστος παντα μαζι σου Ιωαναθαν!
Personally I would approach the issue from the historical perspective of patterns and how they are reflected in our daily rituals.
The evolution of man's relations with the religious dimension is one of deepening, first at the level of awareness and then at the level of transposition more and more clearly into concepts, thus forming a dogma that reflects the pre-existing patterns as clearly as possible.
Dogma is a procedural exposition, a recipe for alignment, and religion is that type of dogma by which man is helped to put into practice those rituals that reflect the patterns of existence and finally to become aware of the pattern under which the patterns of existence are subordinated.
From this perspective, we can accept the lack of contradiction between the customs that were eventually preserved and integrated into the ritual that expresses the most complex and complete dogmatic form that Christianity has offered us.
even so, chapter and verse?
Foreign Gods? If the Germanic people had Germanic Gods and later adopted Yahweh wouldn’t Yahweh be the foreign God?
Inspiring Philosophy enters in the chat…
To say what exactly?
@@larryjake7783 he has an extensive set of presentation about this same topic.
I thought a night at the colosseum, temple prostitutes, child sacrifice, etc, etc, etc, was pagan
I expected a better perspective from you, but I appreciate your input nonetheless. God bless you, brother.
Does Jeremiah 10:3-4 not qualify the “Christmas tree” ritual as as a pagan act? Or is it just not properly integrated yet?
The tree in Jeremiah is a carved idol...not a tree, like in the forest.
Its pagan if you dedicated the tree to false gods, just like the bible says "do not eat meat dedicated to false gods" its the same concept.
Also there was a saint who admonished Germanic tribes about their tree worship and I think the evergreen trees got used as an example of the “everlasting God” similar to how St. Patrick used the shamrock to explain the Trinity.
It's very simple. Worshiping the golden calf is wrong, but then God tells the Israélites to make giant bronze bulls to serve in the temple. No one worships a Christmas tree.
As a pagan, I dont buy that Christmas is Pagan. Theres zero evidence that is the case. Its also the case that Pagan cultures used a lunar calendar NOT a solar calendar.
Some christmad practices are pagan. For instance, the burning of the Jol log is a pagan practice. However most people dont burn logs. The gift giving thing may have come from Roman Paganism, but thats not clear.
The real problem is that atheists and Pagans tend to view ANY folk expression of religion as paganism. As if Christians were not also capable of folk expressions of their religions.
Lastly, NO Pagan cultures had a word for their religion. Religion wasn't a concept until the Christianization of the world. A Pagan culture would have said something such as "old ways" such as in the case of the Nordic cultures.
You'll find Christians using the term "religion" only sparingly, and usually in some specific context (i.e. academic). Usually we refer to it as "the Faith".
@@AluminiumT6 Nordic Pagans have begun to adopt a similar language.
Christmas_____pagan.
Excellent clip. Thoroughly destroyed that point of view
Solstice isn’t pagan but was used by paganism. Eggs and rabbits aren’t pagan but are used by paganism. We get tripped up because we see pagans using it and think we’re using the symbolism in the same way.
Neo-pagans at that
Christ and Santa, are preparing us for death.
Yalda, Yule, Winter Solstice, Saturnalia, Hanukah, Christmas... it's all Rock n Roll to me. Just don't invite me to Kwanza.
100%
What’s wrong with kwanza?
@@jrob4795 Seriously? It's worth a search, manufactured holiday made up by socialists in the 60's. The founder also stabbed his girlfriend. Not my kind of party.
@@jrob4795
It doesn’t exist
Their is no agreed date for the birth of christ,
But there is an agreed date for the winter equinox, obviously.
Infact their is no agreed year for the birth of christ either.
There isn't a winter equinox, those happen in spring and autumn. The solstice also doesn't fall on the 25th
Christ was born mid to late September.
There is no command or instruction in the Bible to observe the pagan Saturnalia.
Saturnalia was not celebrated on Dec 25th.
@@sigurdholbarki8268 Christmas the 25th to not the day of the birth of Christ.
December the 25th ------- the pagan day of the feast day of the birth of the Sun God ------- Nimrod.
So what would be Pagan then?
Abortion.
Paganism
worshipping idols
Actively worshipping pagan deities. Not just happening to possibly include some of the relics of paganism in your decorations.
Most Christian Apologists: well Sol Invictus was only celebrated on the 25th of December after Christmas had already been established on the 25th...
Jonathan: who cares!? (Laughs like someone who probably knows all the above and also really doesn't care)
Santa_____pagan.
Christmas_____pagan.
Then, why would Christians condemned yoga if it used for physical and/or mental health only?
It's not pagan to stretch. If it's just stretching then you don't have to call it yoga, you call it stretching
Yoga is not merely physical.
Because it's not just stretching it's intrinsically tied to Hindu worship. Do calisthenics.
Yoga_____pagan.
“Nimrod started the great organized worldly apostasy
from God that has dominated this world until now.
Nimrod married his own mother, whose name was Semiramis.
After Nimrod’s death, his so-called mother-wife,
Semiramis, propagated the evil doctrine of the survival
of Nimrod as a spirit being. She claimed a full-grown
evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump,
which symbolized the springing forth unto new life
of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth,
she claimed, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree
and leave gifts upon it. December 25th, was the birthday
of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.”
What are you quoting?
Easter is pagan because of bunnys.
I know people that say the celebrate Christmas and all they do is buy things and complain. Where is Jesus in that?
That's not Jonathan's argument. Those people obviously aren't putting the attention of Christ first, that's not what was asked. It was asked whether the holiday of Christmas is pagan, and it's not. Look at how Eastern Orthodox or Ethiopian Orthodox celebrate Christmas and ask yourself is that what you tried to describe in the comments?
If you're honest, you'll see that no, what they(the Orthodox) do is far richer and deeper and pertains to Christ.
Why don't you ask them?
Xmas is 1000% pagan.
Jeremiah 10:2-4 Thus says the Lord: “Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.
❤
The Tree_____pagan.
Clearly, Christmas is a Zoroastrian holiday, just ask the Magi.
Jesus wasn't born in the winter.... just fyi.
Christ was not born on Christmas, it's a traditional pagan day.the Bible in the book of Jeremiah 10 3 5 let's you know not to celebrate it.
The only known pagan festival on the 25th December was for Sol Invictus which was only instituted a few decades after Christmas had been instituted.
Also, solstices only seem to be biggish deals in Northern latitudes and by the time Christianity made serious headways into those areas Christmas had been instituted in the Mediterranean for several centuries, in fact even as late as the medieval period the biggest deal in the year was still Easter
Words are pointless.
Interesting that you used words to express that thought.
Christmas ----- pagan.
Christ was not born on Dec. 25.
Lol, no and yes
@@sigurdholbarki8268 To Christmas pagan
You seem extremely dismissive even when you’re just staring at the camera, it’s almost like scolding lol I like your content but I think the tone is off
You don't even know why it's pagan.
Why is the Vatican obelisk surrounded by eight spokes? The Buddhist eightfold path? The steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. A lot of bloodshed for a book.
No, it's the 8th day.
Jesus was not born during Saturnalia.
It doesn't take much digging to know how christianity literally placed their holidays right on top of pagan holidays. Same thing with churches, often built on ley lines and old pagan sites of worship and sacrifice.
Such lack of integrity to not own up to these facts.
So glad you asked! Yes, I'm a christian.
Truth simply well said. And I am Pagan.
@@Ariannaishun Blessings, friend.
It doesn't need to be us vs them. Pagan doesn't equal evil, unsophisticated, etc. The Judaeo Christian tradition has tended at times to be jealous, tribal, straw-manning, reductive in its appraisal of others. If Christianity aims towards the highest goodness and harmony, of course it will integrate/recapitulate some of the deepest rhythms, goodness intuited by cultures/peoples around the world. If God is love, this includes love of the Pagan. Christianity would be better to self-reflect on where it falls short, letting itself recognize its own corruptness, blindness, greed, jealousy etc, so that it can be reborn again fresh, clean, new, and true (as per the Christian Passion).
Idk man, I'd rather get the practical knowledge of how to be a Christian from my priest, bishop, and the saints, or even trustworthy friends, rather than from some random opinionated midwit on the RUclips comments.
@@AluminiumT6 Yes, stay with the warm cocoon of what you know. For it is written love thy neighbour as long as their spirituality is not culturally alien to you.
@@aidanpelly144 😂
@@AluminiumT6 And yes very wise to stay in one paradigm and get really grounded in it.
Hi, look at your sins first and only ever. That is the Christian way.
Mithra pagan sun god born December 25.
For goodness sake people, do some actual research.
I could not find any source about 25.12 born date of Mithra.
@@jarrilaurila Lookup - "Mithras December 25"
@Joel W. Yes, of course it has.
But what is being denied, true Christianity or false?
Christmas & Easter is just the tip of a very large satanic iceberg.
@@glenwillson5073 you understand that Mithra and Mithras are different Gods? Mithras is Roman pagan religion and definetly not older than Christianity. Also i really do not find any real source about 25.12 date.
@@jarrilaurila Do more research.
Mithra & Mithras are the same.
Yes it was popular with Roman soldiers but that's only a tiny fraction of the history.
Check the Persian origins.
Just because we say we are doing something or other to worship God, doesn't mean God is ok with it.
God tells us how to worship him, we don't tell God.
The satanic rebellious substitution of Sunday for the God commanded Sabbath is the number one example of humans thinking they can tell God what to do.
This was overly defensive and dismissive. Obviously, Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, and this was the solstice celebrations that Christianity co-opted when it became the state religion. The debate isn't IF it's pagan, but if celebrating the rebirth of the sun is wrong... Or if it is the same kind of thing as Thanksgiving.
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Too many coincidental connections to be tenuous. Christ himself is a continuation of much older traditions. Christmas is no different.
You are incorrect.
@@LKRaider About what? Pattern recognition, or Christianity being built upon Judaism?
honestly i see your christianity and paganism as two sides of the same coin. you seem to get hung up on the idea that pagans don't have a central creative force behind their pantheons.. i'm sure some wouldn't acknowledge it but the center of the mandala (the mandala which is also the zodiac and nature) is very much an integrating, unifying, and higher force than the periphery. the main difference i can see is that christians put emphasis on the center and (literally) demonize the margin, while the pagans i've met who are sophisticated and not internet cat girls sort of take the center for granted as a creative, integrating, yet wholly undefinable and therefore unspeakable truth. we try to understand its manifestations through the peripheral gods. those gods that christians call demons or angels when they are feeling charitable. the pagan = bad and christian = good mentality i think is coming from one direction only... and that direction is downstream from the book of moses. it's an antiquated take that a lot of christians can't seem to let go of, and i think it's a result of the jews being mistreated under the egyptian pagans.
John 10:9
johnathan is a very unique and exegetical soul moving the tradition forward leaps and bounds through an integration of different sources from different places in history.
to pretend that johnathan's views on principalities are held by the majority of christians or the christian establishment is naive at best, and disengenuous at worst
christians war against powers and principalities, from the book of ephesians.
moses warned against associating with strange gods.
christians have a long and glorious history of demonizing the margins. johnathan even calls pagan gods or disincarnate spirits "demons" multiple times. don't try to bullshit me, i probably know your tradition better than you do.
@@leondbleondb if you don't show your work, you don't get any credit.
Watch more of his videos
"It's an antiquated take that a lot of Christians can't seem to let go of" - I don't know how else to explain this to you about Christianity, but we believe in the Mosaic Law (the Ten Commandments). And a Christian can't not believe in it and still be a Christian.
It may come as a surprise (especially if you haven't read it) that the First Commandment forbids idolatry (for everyone), which means it forbids paganism.
Christian people won't start not being Christian just because you want them to be pagan.
"...who cares"
Christian Theology in a nutshell
Who cares? We better care! Do you want to do things that praise foreign gods and align you to them? We better know if it’s pagan!
In order to be praising foreign gods, one has to be actively, consciously praising them, not including some relic which has lost its original meaning over 2,500 years or more into the decorations in their house, or happening to choose the "wrong" date for their celebration.