I'm Yaqub Masih originally from India. I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints in 1980 along with my wife and son. I gained my spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon by reading from it's pages and then prayed about its truthfulness and gained testimony and joined the Church and never looked back since. Did I look for geographical or archeological proof? No, I obtained my testimony from the Spirit.
A testimony is best. The other stuff... is just interesting. But the important stuff... the stuff that matters for salvation, doesn't require a doctorate to do.
At the age of 16 Joseph would tell the most profound stories about the Native Americans as if he lived among them, their dress, manner of travel, religious practices, etc. Where do you think Joseph learned so much about the Native people from?
Many Taino also have Jewish DNA... probably because of the Spanish ships, I am guessing. A friend of mine has Taino... AND Ashkenaz (east European Jewish) DNA. Interesting history. There were some who had to hide their beliefs even on the Island. If they were from first temple diaspora... the DNA would be different. Maybe more like Iberian Sephardi DNA? Or what we see in the Arabic world Jews, less the other influences. What I like about the scriptures... not all of it is Jewish. Jaredites are off to the side after Nimrod. Not Jewish or even Israelite... even pre-Abrahamic. Wait until we learn about ALL the people G-d has dealings with and learn the context to understand how it fits. I want to see the older African histories and pre-Semitic languages... closer to that Adamic languages that we will obe day learn about. Or all the other migrations to the Americas (and other places).
Well yes of course he did. I think something that people.foeget is that he visted all nations aftwr he visited the nephites. He went to Australia, europe, asia, africa, South america and central america. He visited them but only after he visited the posteriry of lehi who lived in americas heartland
I read the Book of Mormon once a year for 13 years after getting married and knew the first two Books of Nephi did not support central and South America. There was too many prophecies that only for North America. About 13 years ago, I found Wayne May and knew I found the answers to my doubts about Central/S America! Love not feeling alone with my inspirations from so many years ago!
People in the Church need to understand the quiet history of the disappeared Hopewell/Adena, that they match the archeaology of the Nephites and Jaredites. Since Joseph Smith, the church has been somewhat obsessed with t he flashy archaeology of Central and South America. A "voice from the dust" matches the Hopewell lost civilization.
I wouldn't say the "Church" is (referring to the organization) as much as LDS scholars at BYU. I understand the draw, Central America has so much more "stuff" to look at and study, whereas the United States has been swept clean by westward expansion over the centuries. I don't like to make claims on where exactly I think it happened, but after studying the Mayan and Olmec civilizations for years, I am convinced they both came from China, Indonesia, Cambodia and other places in south east Asia. The culture, buildings, and language are too perfect a match.
@@andrewjeppesen2369 Probably a mix of several groups over time... but heavily Asian influenced. The best way to see things: Clear lines between 1) known and 2) evidentiary/speculatuve categories. If something confirms what you already think... pro or against... that's the best time to double check something and avoid embarassment.
The Navajo (Din'eh) have many stories that seem to come straight out of the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel, including that they came from the east, that the earth was formed or organized and that all beings had awareness or intelligence before coming to mortality.
Navajo or din eh are Athabaskan (Alaska) for one, they invaded the hopi, or Anasazi . They don't like each other , I hopi keep to themselves and seem to be most reclusive?
From what I understand from a Din Eh who tells their history online broke away or were lead out from the tribes in the Eastern US as everything was breaking into war and everyone left of the 2 warring factions (one of them white both very evil) and they escaped and joined up with the cliff dwellers
@@randyjordan5521 Actually, yes! Haplogroup X is found in some Navajo. The source I found indicated that this haplogroup, linked to pre-Columbian transatlantic migrations, is found in 7% of Navajo and in much higher populations of other tribes such as Ojibwa and Sioux.
@@jimashman6251 "Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group." ---LDS geneticist Ugo Perego The haplogroup x marker which is found in some native American tribes occurred tens of thousands of years ago, in the eastern hemisphere, before their ancestors ever migrated to the Americas. Thus, haplogroup x does not support the authenticity of the BOM at all.
I may have something of an answer to the Hill Cumora issue: If Moroni travelled 3000+ miles to bury the plates, he certainly would have had to leave Lamanite territory. But not only was he still actively fearing for his life as he was finishing up the Book of Moroni, I'm sure he was killed by Lamanites soon after he successfully buried them. That means he must have still been in Lamanite territory, which means that either the Lamanites roamed the Heartland, or the plates were teleported.
one would think after these many years, one can sit down in a church and carry on with salvation, but alas no we cant, we have to discuss the authenticity and truthfulness of a church that will never have a end its place with righteous people who want to get on with there bloody lives without this mess. its just a house of confusion. it can not stand , in fact it stands divided.
I remember back in 1994 when I was working way up high right next to the foothills of the mountain in Bountiful Utah. I was helping repair a leak on a concrete tile roof on this old house when an elderly native guy showed up out of nowhere. He started telling me about when he was a boy and used to play high up in the Wasatch mountains. One day there was a small earthquake and he said that a cave opened after the rocks fell away. He said that there was many metal books stored in this cave. He took one to the church headquarters to show them what he had found. The church asked where he found it and they actually went out and inspected the cave. In the end they closed the opening back up and told him that it was not the right time for this to be seen. I asked him if he was a member and he said no but he knew enough of the church when he found the metal books to show them. What made him tell me this story I may never know. But I thought it was interesting!
We need that. To my knowledge it has never really happened before and it SHOULD. There are some weapons of war that need to be buried with some of the parties. Pun intended :)
This is fascinating, but at the same time IMO a very slippery slope. I’m cautiously curious about the end consensus because the Heartland camp has some compelling arguments (even though they are taking liberties with scientific and historical data to try and make it fit their story…. At the same time the South America camp has some compelling arguments (Even though Joseph Smith was very clear that all of this took place on North America Soil. Both sides have hard evidence to show how the other camp can’t possibly be True. There is a reason the LDS church went against what Joseph Smith said and declared that it must have happened in South America. Of Course Non LDS or Post LDS have a laundry list of inconsistencies of the BOM and it’s historical accuracy. I just feel like if you have this debate, both sides are going to show how and why it couldn’t possibly happen at the other sides location. Where does all this leave us?? Why are both sides to so Adamant on putting forth proof that their theory is correct and the other couldn’t possibly be true?? When people withhold parts of historically research and data that is accepted among respected scholars and replace it with non published questionable research and claim it to be accurate then nobody wins. I feel there is enough actual data out there coming from NON LDS people that the LDS community doesn’t need to add anymore gas on the fire with debates like this. Like I said cautiously curious about where this argument lands on both sides. But more cautious than curious.
@@user-sj5ux7ut1j You've hit on a very important topic that I've thought about before. Despite the angry rhetoric and bitter feuds between mesoamerican advocates and heartland advocates, both sides seem to forget that neither has the data to prove the other wrong while proving themselves right. It's all still theoretical. So if you look at it in context, it's two sides arguing which has the better theory. I think they often forget that. It seems silly to spend so much time arguing when we are still at a theoretical stage for both sides. When it comes to geography I wish everyone would calm down and start with the basics. The only pin in the proverbial map we can make, is the Hill cumorah in New York because that's where the plates were buried. That's the only verifiable book of Mormon location we know of. Everything else is theory.
@@andrewjeppesen2369 I think that's right. All we really have as evidence is that Joseph Smith found the plates of Nephi deposited in a hill in upstate New York (which hill would later come to be known as Cumorah). I still think civil conversation on this matter is necessary and completely possible because I've seen it done many times over (and, most importantly, because we all have our own personal witness that The Book of Mormon is true). The only people that I've seen form their belief of The Book of Mormon (or lack thereof) around locations and archeological evidences are those who have yet to join the church. A roundtable conversation among good faith actors on either side would not/should not put one's testimony of The Book of Mormon or the church into question, even if he is swayed to either side.
@@seektruth1360 Please don’t lecture me on the church. Sometimes you look, work, and pray for the truth for a very long time. Sometimes your blessed with the power of discernment, and the Holy Ghost will lead you to what is right. You have no idea where I come from and the experience I’ve had.
@@seektruth1360 While the BYU uses trickery to teach the meso model which frankly is a pile of you know what. I lived in Mexico where these ruins are, near Merida and visited many. They do not fit time line at all, nor usage, nor with archeology. The BYU and almost all LDS scholars believe their own opinions are superior to what Joseph actually taught. So they weaken faith and trust in Joseph Smith, building themselves up as experts. To me the LDS scholars are apostates but loved within our current way things are. Joseph never taught Meso! Period. A seer or a prophet could know what is true about so many issues but there are none of those around apparently. So we will wait for a new Seer and Translator to return so we can receive the sealed portion and not have to listen to Scribes and lawyers from BYU.
@@troymitchell1747 Maybe @seektruth1360 has given you the right answer you have been seeking for assuming you have not got your answer already. Do you think that it could be a possibility that seektruth1360 has given you the right answer you have been seeking for? Just curious. God bless you and yours and take care.
Not being contentious; according to the Book of Mormon itself, Nephites did occupy what is known currently as the heartland of the United States of America. However, what many don't understand is who these Nephites were or where they came from; applying all of the BOM narrative and its insightful passages tells us who they were, how, and when they got there. The Book clearly says these Nephites left the main BOM southland of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated north, some by land, some by ship crossing a sea to the north country. The Book's own narrative says Zarahemla & Bountiful were in the southland of the continent (Mormon 1:6); besides a land route, there is also a sea between Zarahemla and the north country where the New Jerusalem will be built. Alma 63, Helaman 3, mentions the migration of Nephites by the thousands all across the continent, these groups left the main Book of Mormon lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful, we do not have the full history of these migrated Nephites. Mormon only briefly mentions them. However, thanks to Moroni's updates during the 36 years he wandered the continent after his father and people were destroyed in the land of Zarahenmla, we do know the demise of the northern Nephites, as being the same as the Nephites gathered at Cumorah in the land of Zarahemla in the southland of the continent. Here's an alignment check, a "thought-provoking question" so to speak, for those who listen to the heartland theory; knowing from the Book's narrative that the narrow neck of land is near Zarahemla, and the migrated Nephites left from the land of Zarahemla, if any of the narrow strips of land, between any of the Great Lakes, is the narrow neck of land, and if any of the Great Lakes, is the sea thousands of Nephites sailed across to the choice north country; where does that place the choice land where a New Jerusalem is to be built, Canada?? The thought makes reason stare. Another alignment check; according to the BOM narrative, the New Jerusalem is to be built in a choice land north of Zarahemla. The town built by the Latter-day Saints in Iowa, and honorarily named Zarahemla is northeast of Independence Missouri, which would place New Jerusalem Southwest of Zarahemla, not north as the book indicates. The Latter-day Saint built Zarahemla in Iowa, is not the BOM Zarahemla. Any Nephite evidence discovered anywhere on the continent of North America validates the full Book of Mormon narrative, AND precisely collaborates Joseph's statements of wandering over the plains of the Nephites & the Zelph (converted Lamanite) story. And yet Zarahemla will always harmoniously be in the southland of the continent as the Book describes, which precisely fits south of Independence Missouri. It's all accounted for in the BOM folks. Don't let modern day distractors with "evidence" and "shiny trinkets", distract you from the Book's own narrative. Any evidence found anywhere on the continent, does not eliminate that there were Nephites elsewhere on the continent. By the book's own narrative, there were Nephites all across the continent, including the southland where Zarahemla was. Joseph has declared the whereabouts of Zarahemla. And no, he did NOT identify the town developed by the Latter-day Saints across the river from Nauvoo as the Book of Mormon city of Zarahemla, the one burnt at the time of the Savior's crucifixion. The town named Zarahemla in Iowa, is just an honorary name. Much like the Bountiful in the new world, was named in honor of the Lord's blessings of Bountiful in the old world, and further much like the city of Bountiful north of Salt Lake City is just an honorary name and not the same city of Bountiful in the Book of Mormon. There are dozens if not hundreds of examples of these honorary type names of places of the Book of Mormon or Bible. The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; Book of Mormon & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph precisely claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America. The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message are descriptions of where and when it took place. Joseph Smith as editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff unitedly, as editors, published an 'important fact' in the Church's paper the Times and Seasons on October 1, 1842, entitled Zarahemla, They declared Zarahemla was in Central America, specifically within the borders of Guatemala. They went on to clarify they weren't declaring or naming a specific ruin as the exact location of the city of Zarahemla within Guatemala. As further support in the T&S declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes Alma 22 describing the setting and region where Zarahemla was. There's no hearsay about it; we have the publication, it's real. The Church has never refuted the publication or claim. In fact, the Church's current statement on BOM geography verifies Joseph as editor during the publications relating to the BOM geography articles. It also says Joseph believed there was Nephite evidence in both North and Central America; both are on this continent, as Mormon calls it. This cannot be discounted away, it's a fact in the history books. Look it up and read it; this T&S editorial is simply wonderful, notice how the editors clarify the city of Zarahemla, as the one burnt at the time of the Lord's crucifixion; why would they need to specify the Zarahemla burnt at the Savior's crucifixion; isn't there only one Zarahemla? Because, they knew there was another city, with the name of Zarahemla, developed by the Latter-day Saints across the river from Nauvoo. Joseph, John, & Wilford clarified it so no one could be confused by the different Zarahemla in Iowa. No need for speculation, Joseph clears it all up in the same edition of the T&S. Thanks, Brother Joseph! Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and not in control of what was printed in the T&S. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was published in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the inspired editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up, so future generations wouldn't have to speculate about it or rely on conspiring men. Here's an interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have seen on available maps regarding Guatemala's borders when Joseph made his declaration; google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! No scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; the BOM in Mormon 1:6, Alma 22, Alma 63, Helaman 3 already take care of it, it's in Southern region of the land surrounded by seas. Joseph's declaration in 1842 confirming Zarahemla being in the Southern region of this continent, aka Central America today, is just icing on the cake. All things considered, it all fits precisely as stated both by Joseph and the Book of Mormon narrative. Best wishes in your journey!
The problem with Heartlanders is they have a hard time understanding that Mesoamerica is in North America. In their lust for phony nationalism they've brainwashed themselves to actually believe the events of the Book of Mormon had to have taken place exclusively in what is today the United States of America even though it didn't exist back in the Book of Mormon times.
Yea… I have learned and researched a lot of more interesting facts than brother may. He’s good but, valley of grivalva is North America too , so is the Yucatán . I like the idea it could be the hopewell, in 3 nephi . Says all the lands west to east , north and south , …. That’s pretty much north and South America, you folks seem to not understand , runners only takes 2 to 3 weeks to run from Peru , to the Great Lakes. Yes runners could cover 200 miles in 2 days. Mongols traveled 3000 miles on pony express in Asia in 2cweeks. ….
Wayne is such a genuine guy. Great interview. He's filled with the spirit. Heartland model has always made so much sense to me. Truth is sweet to the ears. I do think it's quite possible, however, that Christ ALSO visited Meso America... and that's why there's some evidence there, too. Heavenly Father loves ALL of his children. Two things can be true at once.
Wayne is right on with all the proof we need to understand where the Book of Mormon took place. Thanks Wayne for all you have done and continued research!!
I love Wayne May. He has given us such a treasure of knowledge regarding the American setting of the Book of Mormon. Regarding the identity of the Hill Cumorah, do our scriptures not tell us, "And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets-the book to be revealed." (D&C 128:20).
What little I know about the heart land makes sense to me. It’s logical and I find it very interesting. I joined the church in 1979 in central Pennsylvania that is where I have lived my whole life. I could never understand how anyone could not think the Book of Mormon happened in the United States. It’s just so logical.
It is not logical whatsoever. It couldn't have taken place in the modern USA borders. Helamen 3:3 says they went northward, Helaman 3:6-7 and Helamen 3:10 says that there was no timber so they built houses using cement. The only place in the USA that has that kind of geography and evidence of cement housing being used anciently is Arizona and Texas, mind you the Book of Mormon says all this is going on North of the main body of Nephites or where the story has been taking place. There are multiple other places that say they spread across the land, which is why you see evidence of some Nephite culture so far north. Alma talks of a guy, Hagoth, building ships and sailing from the west sea and coming back once and then these people were never being heard from again. The heartland model has Lake Michigan being the west sea talked about. Lake Michigan isn't that big and can be traveled around so it does create a weird issue of why they were never heard from again, especially because this is Mormon writing this centuries later. There is never a time where the story talks about the cold or snow, which the US borders that the Heartland model has would have gotten. And considering the Lamanites were supposed to be *naked or have little clothing,* how could they have survived in the snow? The Heartland has the Mississippi as the water that Moroni's army wades across, you cannot wade across the Mississippi River both during that time and now.
@@gordianknot9595 The Book of Mormon is the true word of God who tells of a real family who crossed the sea and arrived in America and a real people who sprang from them with real cities being built and battles taking place. Nephi, Alma, Helaman, Captain Moroni, Mormon, Moroni and every other named person were real people. There is no room for it to be "inspired". If you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints then repent of your error. I say that partially jokingly but also seriously.
Wayne May is who I credit for my increased testimony of the Book of Mormon. I served my mission in Honduras, back then I taught the people that they were living in the land of the Book of Mormon. I did believe it then but since have really questioned that idea since I could not find any solid evidence to point to what I actually read in the Book of Mormon. After watching Wayne May for the first time, I came to the realization that, first the Book of Mormon is still true, and it did not happen in Central America. Oh, and if you love a deep dive into scriptural origins, look no further than Bruce Porter. Bruce is also a heartlander.
I have been a HUGE fan of Wayne Mays for years. I have followed his work and read every book he has read and even this interview he said more things I didn’t know yet. Great interview. I live in ohio and I am certain the BOM happened here in many places. We have found some cool stuff😁 This was great fellas! I think Wayne Mays work will be more known in the years to come! I’ve read “The Mystic Symbol” by Henrietta Mertz about 4 times, I’ve read “Antiquities of New York” I’ve read the book or Mormon in the Heartland by Rod Meldrum. So many more. Go find these books and you’ll be amazed! Also find the surveys done by Squire and Davis. Amazing!
@sarahbean6170 There was about 20,000 people who boarded ships in the west sea and sailed North. That was before the destruction of the Nephite People at the hill Cumorah. And the hill cumorah was in the land northward... but these people left from Zarahemla which was in the land southward. 4 And it came to pass that in the thirty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, there was a large company of men, even to the amount of five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward. 5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward. 6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year. 7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward. So according to Brother May... which was the west sea???
@@sarahbean6170 I tell you what amazes me. The people who built the ship and traveled on the ocean to get here... don't know the difference between a salt water ocean and fresh water lake. Yet they call four of them sea east, sea west, North sea and south sea. what did they do with the 5th Lake??
😂 hearing new things sweetheart? Thats because anecdote and BS can be made up on the spot. Go back to putting your jigsaw puzzle together with a hammer
I was watching a Jewish rabbi who said that they leave the last letter of the name of God off because it’s so sacred to them they don’t want to fully write His name 32:40
Strange Rabbi, because Jews never write YHVH, as it's not the name of God, but a placeholder for the name of God. The real name of God was removed from the Torah to prevent blasphemy, and replaced with the tetragramathon of YHVH. When read in synagogue or in prayer, YHVH is pronounced as Adonai which means my master. In everyday speech, HaShem, the name, is used. Thus YHVH is never written as yhv as that is absolutely meaningless and serves no purpose. H' is written in place of YHVH in everyday Hebrew writing. Out of respect, Jews will write G-d and L-rd in English. The angelic name of satan ending in El, was also removed and replaced with the word satan, aka deceiver.
@@thestickofjosephI've asked this before about the heartland theory but never get an answer. What about Hugh Nibly stating in his biography that of all his travels to meso America he has never found one bit of evidence that the BOM happened there? 🤔
@@kimhaughton3771 Because archaeology takes time. It wasn't until 2018 with the LIDAR System it was discovered that Mesoamerica has cities and large urban areas that have yet to be explored and that date to the right time for the Book of Mormon where millions of people lived in, just like the Book of Mormon says. In the Book of Mormon it says that some cities were sunk in water (3 Nephi 9:7). There is a lake in Guatemala, Lake Atitlan, where Archeologists in 2011 actually discovered a city that was buried under the water that they called Samabaj. And they’ve actually gone in and found pottery from this and it’s dated to the pre-Classic period, which is 600 BC to 250 AD.
@kimhaughton3771 that actually fits heartland theory. Heartland theory says the book of Mormon took place in the heartland of the United States. So not finding evidence in meso America fits that perfectly.
I wanted to thank you for having Wayne on. Whenever anyone shows an interest in him (I have read nearly all of his work), my first go-to RUclips video is entitled: Book of Mormon geography in North america- Wayne May It is 6 years old and runs 1:23:26. I would include the link, but RUclips usually yanks comments with any links. You will not be disappointed watching this video! Here you will see all of the charts, pictures, citations, scriptural, references, and graphics to really understand what this model is all about. Those that take the time to attack it have never really taken the time to delve into it. Anytime I have had someone watch this video completely, they come away at least acknowledging that it is a valid proposal. As for the model being racist . . . Since everything these days is racist . . . Keep going, guys! You are producing great stuff! You apparently have no fear when it comes to the trolls that come out of the woodwork. That must mean that you are onto something!
So the Channel is "LDS Archeology" and the video name is what we see above. The run time I see is only 1 sec different. Is it the mark of new ignorant to brand everything they don't like with "racist" ?
There are just so many possible parallels of the Heartland model that give the Book of Mormon credibility. I also think the geometric earthworks have many temple symbols, the circles and the squares. There's a great presentation on RUclips from a member who puts together that theory. That to me is most compelling because they were made during the "Golden age"of the Hopewell during 1AD to 400AD. Which is the Zion period of the Book of Mormon.
@redfightblue there are alot more symbols of Christ and His Divinity than just the cross of Calvary. All of which point us to Him as the Savior of the world and the central and most critical part of the Plan of Salvation. But yes it's too bad they didn't make a cross, it would've made things alot easier to understand who they worshipped.
@@TheHappyNarwhals My comment was about Grace vs Works. Christians use the symbol of the Cross to represent Grace. Freemasons us the symbol of the Compass and Square to represent Works.
@@establishingzion688 I just don't think Native Americans had any knowledge of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses, Passover, Circumcision, or The Cross. Once I found where these things were in that time frame, I finally understood the Book of Mormon.
At around 12:49 he claims no where else in the world dug ditches and installed palisades? The Motte-and-Bailey was a common form of fortification during the Middle Ages. It consisted of two main elements: Motte: A large, steep mound of earth or stone, usually topped with a wooden tower or keep. The Motte served as the primary defensive position and was the last line of defense against attackers. Bailey: A lower, enclosed courtyard adjacent to the Motte. It contained various domestic structures, such as houses and workshops, and served as the first line of defense. In times of danger, people from the surrounding area could seek refuge within the Bailey, protected by the elevated Motte. Several ancient civilizations, such as the Celts in Europe, constructed hill forts during the Iron Age. These forts were usually situated on prominent hills or ridges and had defensive ditches and wooden palisades to protect the inhabitants. In feudal Japan, fortified hilltop settlements known as "yamajiro" were built during the late Heian to early Muromachi periods (11th to 15th centuries). These settlements followed a similar concept to the Motte-and-Bailey design, featuring a hilltop fortification with wooden or stone structures. The Dong Son culture in ancient Vietnam constructed fortified settlements with wooden palisades and defensive ditches during the Bronze Age. They keep calling the fortifications, "palisades" and the very word "palisade" comes from the Latin word "palus" which means "stake". The word originally applied to a series of stakes set in a row to form an enclosure or fortification. This was an incredibly common means of fortification all over the world...
davidroth1011. Thank you for the lesson. It was fun to read. I have not heard about evidence of that in Meso America, so I think his point has validity; despite your accurate details.
Great video!! Wayne is a personal friend of mine, my husband and I got to spend five hours today with him and his ground penetrating radar team today looking for some new things that he’ll be sharing soon. We’ve taken two tours with Wayne and Ryan Fisher they were awesome. If you haven’t toured with him you definitely should it will make the Book of Mormon come to life. We love Wayne he’s a great guy!!
@@GrgMRnlds86 Ryan is a friend of ours too, we visited with him and his family when we were in Utah last April. He’s doing good but very busy working on other projects and attending to his fatherly duties. He’s a great guy and a top researcher so I believe we’ll be seeing him again soon sharing more truth about the Book of Mormon Evidence’s.
I definitely lean toward the heartland model. The fact that most of the learned people from BYU lean toward the Mesoamerican model gives me that much more confidence in the heartland model. There is archaeological evidence on both sides (though stronger for heartland, imo) but I believe that the doctrinal evidence supports a North American model much better.
2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. 30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
@@binmyrtmind I imagine that could be part of it. I do believe that they believe it. I have a very well-informed friend who has studied this topic in-depth and has come to the conclusion that he believe Mesoamerica fits better. I've listened to his reasoning and I wasn't persuaded, but I do know he is a very smart and honest person. I don't know where it took place, and it doesn't really matter to me as far as a testimony is concerned, but even from a young age, when I would hear people talk about Book of Mormon stuff from a Mesoamerican or South American perspective, it didn't ring true to me. When people talk about it as if it happened in North America, that does. But maybe that's just my American bias talking. I personally haven't studied the Mesoamerican evidences quite as thoroughly as the Heartland evidences.
@@user-yr9lt7dz8kthis is a very bad faith scriptural reference. People who actually are experts in their fields should be dismissed because you think they must not care for God's counsel? What is this nonsense! Mesoaerican scholars in the BYU are very well awere of what the book of Mormon says. They seem to be far more thorough in their approach to these studies. They are also more cautious in their claims, something that is a huge problem with the heartlanders, they are so sure of their position, even though much of their claims are interpretatios of scripture and less of actual anthropology and archeology. Much of the heartland archeology does not convince me as evidence of nephites. Sure it may have been but the data does not convincingly demo strate this to be true at all. The idea that nephites could ha e been spreading to north also is scriptural and very likely, but this doesn't prove heartland.
This is where your rubber meets the road for your channel. I hope you emphasize, endlessly, that you are sharing perspectives and evidences without interjecting your personal beliefs into the conversation. This topic you have chosen is LITERALLY a dividing issue in the church and opinions are extremely strong on both sides. As for which one is correct? We will know when we know but it has nothing to do with our eternal salvations. I once has a philosopy teacher who was an expert at talking about a subject from both sides of the issue without ever giving you a sense of what side he personally took. I wish you luck. LOL
Excellent comment and I wholeheartedly agree. The small factions of the church that fight over this need to drop the contention. Sadly I was wrapped up in that for a time (on both sides).
I love Wayne May. I could listen to him all day talk about the Book of Mormon lands and the proofs he’s found to place it in North America. The gentleman man he talks about who discovered the temple in Tennessee did write a book and I’ve had the privilege of seeing the only copy available to the public. I saw it in the main Quaker headquarters in the U.K I went there to copy the book for Wayne. I was very lucky that they left us to read it and to copy it. Great find.
Actually there is also a copy in New Jersey at Princeton, I borrowed it last summer :) Interesting read, although it appears Harris never actually went to Tennessee, he just saw photos and gave his thoughts on them.
@@MrNirom1 No idea. I've heard theories about it being Llamas and Alpacas, to Mammoths and Horses, or Horses and Buffalo (which seems unlikely). Makes one wonder though.
@@andrewjeppesen2369 May was wrong in thinking that Williams said 30 degrees N Latitude. It was actually 30 degrees S latitude was the landing site.. And you will find the llama and alpaca in the Andes in Peru but not in North America.
As a die hard Mesoamericanist I can openly say that he is a nice guy. I talked with him years ago at their BOM Lands conference. Him and Bruce Porter are good guys for sure. I completely disagree with their geography for the BOM for many reasons but love them both as fellow saints for sure. And I’m glad you guys are doing these interviews.Keep up the good work.
Also, not here to argue, but what about Zelph's Mound where Joseph Smith said the skeletal remains were from a Jaredite? What about the location of Zarahemla as being identified by Joseph Smith as across the river from Nauvoo? And those Nephites and Lamanites must have had some awesome quads and calve muscles, as they walked from Central America to North America and back and forth, right? Not being rude, just a thought-provoking question. :)
The messenger that rode with Joseph and David Whitner on their way to the Whitmer home to translate, he stated that he needed to go to Cumorah and left the company and continued via wagon to Fayette.
In September 1878 Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith departed Salt Lake City for a trip to Missouri to interview David Whitmer, the last surviving witness of the Book of Mormon. During the interview of David Whitmer by Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, several questions were answered by David Whitmer. Their conversation with David was printed in the Dec 1878 Millennial Star. Here is part of what he said. “When I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an oldfashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with “good morning it is very warm” at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly “No I am going to Cumorah.” This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around enquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.” J.F.S. Did you notice his appearance? D.W. I should think I did. He was I should think, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set, about such a man as James Vancleave there, but heavier; his face was as large, he was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like Brother Pratt’s, but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in shaped like a book. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. Soon after our arrival home, I saw something which led me to the belief that the plates were placed or concealed in my father’s barn. I frankly asked Joseph if my supposition was right, and he told me it was. Sometime after this, my mother was going to milk cows, when she was met out near the yard by the same old man (judging by her description of him) who said to her: “You have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tired because of the increase of your toil; it is proper therefor that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened.” Thereupon he showed her the plates. Mary Whitmer always referred to the messenger who showed her the plates as “Brother Nephi”, but her grandson thought she meant Moroni so the narrative got changed. contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/MStar/id/27175
I spent a month in Mexico- saw many pyramids, ruins and museums. The amount of ancient artifacts is mind blowing. I have never been on a Book of Mormon lands tour, but I can imagine how easy it would be to find what you need in South America to make just about any connection and any conclusion you want. It must be so much harder to find any evidence in the USA- but to have found this much is more compelling to me for some reason. I would love to hear more about it!
The temples in MesoAmerica are not Israelite, they are Hindu and were built 900 to 1400 years after Christ visited America. There is no way Christ stood on the temple grounds at Bountiful in MesoAmerica.
They probably had some overlap. Go to Mexico, see a Home Depot, and then say they aren't American (USA American). Try to say they don't have DNA we do up here. So much overlap. Obviously some concepts are there but... it gets jumbled. Maybe the BoM lands are up here, but they aren't excluded either. Maybe we will find out the aealed portion covers more than what we know.
So fun to see Wayne on fire sharing his research with the young men. Wayne's research and findings make reading the book of Mormon so much fun to know that the location is here in America, the promised land. All the pieces fit perfectly together.
incredibly excellent interview. I really loved it. I have found many of Wayne Mays videos and writings. They are very compelling to me. I am especially concerned with the existence in the ruins and temples of South America of steps.. It was never allowed in Old Hebrew temples, else you could see under the skirts of the priests and it would break the commandments and be immodest. They are definitely not Hebrew connected temples. And that has bothered me for ever. But everything about the heartland and the ruins has made sense to me. I think Wayne May got it right. I think others are covering up or excluding much to be able to prove their points. God bless Wayne, as he continues this reveal. If he is wrong, I know he would definitely admit it, but I am sure that he has so much proof now that he is just waiting for more evidence to come forward as time goes by to finish his work. Hope that makes sense. Thank you for this interview.
Great video! Just a critique. Hayden, at 1:37:45-1:38:00 you mistakenly mention how Nephi taught his people to build with stone either at the end of 1 Nephi or the beginning of 2 Nephi. To clarify, I think you're looking for 2 Nephi 5:15 which is when the Nephites separate from the Lamanites to a place they called Nephi where they built a temple. Verse 15 explicitly mentions that Nephi taught his people "to work in all manner of wood" and never mentions stone which would backup what Wayne is saying. He continues in verse 16 that they constructed the temple after that of Solomon "save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land."
I have been aware of, as well as convinced of, the United States being the land of the Book of Mormon for quite a few years. When it was first presented to me, my reaction was, "Of course, it just makes sense". There are many others besides Wayne May who also have written and lectured on this subject, probably best known among them is Rod Meldrum. I also have a good friend in my ward, who is married to one of my cousins, who's father wrote 2 books on this subject, called: "Return to Cumorah" and "The Other Side of Cumorah", by Duane R. Aston. The Forward is written by T. Eugene Shoemaker, who was a Poly-Sci professor at California State University Sacramento, my high school best friend's father, our Home Teacher for most of my youth, our Bishop for a time, and finally the person with whom I watched the moon landing in July 1969 on a little black and white TV on his front porch. 😊 I am also familiar with Brigham Young's discourse about Joseph and Oliver going into the cave in the Hill Cumorah and finding "wagon loads" of plates, as well as the Sword of Laban. I have always thought that the "wagon loads of plates" were all the other plates from which Mormon and Moroni abridged the record onto the Gold Plates (as well as other sets of plates), which he then, of course, buried at the top of the hill and led Joseph to. If my idea is correct, that those are what the other plates are and if there had been "another Hill Cumorah" in Central America, then Moroni would have had to, not only carry the one 60 pound set of plates which he buried near the top of the hill, but he would also have had to transport many many hundreds of pounds of plates over the 3000+ miles ALL BY HIMSELF . And as a final note, I have my Grandmother's 1917 edition of the Book of Mormon, which still has the footnote to Chapter 6 of the "Book of Mormon's, Book of Mormon" which says "the Hill Cumorah is in Manchester, Ontario, Co., N. York. (I'm sure that saying, "Book of Mormon's, Book of Mormon" will be confusing to those who aren't familiar with it, but I wrote it that way purposely, to hopefully spark some curiosity and maybe some research). Okay, dissertation over... 😋
I met a guy who was from a tribe in Mexico and he told me and my companion he definitely believed in a white god who came in ancient times to his people, when I was on my mission in the Pacific Northwest. He told us this story was passed down throughout generations. 1:44:44
I heard a similar story on the History Channel from the Aztecs where a white man came & told them He would be back. When the Spaniards came the Aztecs thought Cortez was that white man that was to come again. The Narrator didn’t know who that white man is that the Aztecs wrote about but we know that white man is Christ.
@@changwanchoe however it could be in reference to their own skin color they may have been darker skin and to them white was anything lighter. Just a thought.
They also have a eucharist ceremony documented by priests. There are some errors obviously... it was corrutpted but some.ideas are there. They also disbelieved the creation story as being "too" similar to the Christian version but then found out it wasn't invented after the priests arrived but predated them. Even if it isn't 100% inbred Lamanite lineages... it still has a story. But I am guessing there are multiple lineages.
THANK YOU FOR LOOKING AT BOTH SIDES!!! NO ONE IS DOING THIS. While I no longer take sides in the Book of Mormon geography fight (I've been on both sides over the past 30 years) I am still VERY interested in where it could have been and certainly still have opinions. For a small section of the church, this has become a very nasty and contentious issue and that needs to stop. It's all theory and BOTH sides need to remember that. I wish Saints Unscripted would take a lesson from both of you instead of blinding picking one side (something they have done before). The in-fighting needs to stop and people need to remember that NEITHER side has any advantage over the other in terms of hard evidence. Look forward to more, good work guys!
Personally, I like the mesoamerican model. It makes the most sense for me, from how I understand it, but if it's the heartland theory that's true, that's fine, too.
Love this There is a tribe in Chile that had such a perfect spoken history that when they heard the book of Mormon the whole tribe was converted. The church did and article from back in 2012 I think I remember reading it and sharing it with my uncle that served in Chile for his mission but had fallen away from the church.
Oh my gosh...i just shouted so LOUD...I have LONG had my very own (unsupported) theory that natives of South and Central America (Inca, Maya, Aztec) are related to Indo/Asians...my theory is simply the physical likenesses. When Brother May presented that book I jumped up! I will definitely seek out this publication. All of this is incredibly interesting!
Great presentation! We've been following Wayne May's information for years. It makes perfect sense and all fits together! A great series is "Hidden In the Heartland." Yes, the Book of Mormon is absolutely true and the word of God. Yes, "this land is a land choice above all other lands." The American continent is where the Garden of Eden was. It's where the Book of Mormon took place. And it's the land where religious freedom could make the Restoration possible! I testify that these things are true. :)
I remember learning about the Hopewell moundbuilders. I wondered about these mounds and its relationship to the book of mormon mentioning earthen fortifications, mass graves, etc. It is a very interesting theory.
I have really enjoyed reading Wayne's writings and videos. I used to believe it was further south in the Meso area like so many others believe. What changed my mind to accept it's the heartland area, is because this land in the United States is the promised land. The Book of Mormon with its two groups of people were led to the promised land. That says it right there. "Promised Land". I was always a little bothered that the theory of the Book of Mormon people being in the Meso area because that was not the promised land as we know by revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith. When I learned of these things that Wayne has explained, I finally felt satisfaction. Great video and interview! I would love to meet Wayne someday. He was born to do this. God bless him!
As a non believer I had several snarky comments ready to post all thru the video but I gotta say you guys did a great job asking some key questions and pushing back on some of his claims. At several points you showed sincere interest in finding truth instead of just accepting everything he said. Great interview and great video. I'm still far from agreeing with you guys but keep up the good work and I look forward to you guys getting more interviews in the future.
For Wayne this was not a good interview, he missed so much trying to get so much out in the short time. He skipped around getting off the path. need to have a redo interview, I love wayne.
@@DavidSmith-cm9rq Yeah, I don't think Wayne came off very well in this one. A lot of his evidence seemed to be relying heavily on comments/stories from random people he's met and most of his artifacts sounded like they have very questionable origins (not properly documented or found in context). I'll be open to listening to him some more in the future but for the time being I'm very skeptical of his claims.
His claims are not solely his own they were presented to him. He just had seen increasing parallels with more findings, the Jewish/ hebrew, law of moses parallels, findings that were hidden because of American Indian mistreatment. Americans not been good to it historically past treasures
1:52:50 just scratches the surface of the massive amount of evidence; geological, archaeological, native folklore and languages, DNA, artifacts, etc. that there is to support the Heartland model of where the Book of Mormon took place. The most important thing, however, i 1:52:50 s what the scriptures and the Prophet Joseph say. They say it took place in the Midwest of this country, The Promised Land. Wayne's new magazine, Land of Promise, is fantastic.
@@gordianknot9595 There is no cure for willful ignorance. Choosing to be blind, closed minded and biased never served anyone well. May God bless you and yours. May you never be without and enjoy good health. Our Father in Heaven loves you.
@@gordianknot9595 I knew you'd respond like this. I've heard it all before. I used to be where you are now. I had filled my heart with suspicion and accusation. I was ready to lash out at anyone who rubbed me the wrong way. Why does it bother you so much that I don't go along with what you surmise to be the truth? Relax and let go of whatever hard feelings you have. Brotherly love and patience my friend.
The Chattanooga/Nicknack setting is just perfect for that part of the Book of Mormon. It took twelve days for the People of Alma at Helam to find Zarahemla after they left escaped the Lamanites. If the were anywhere between Nashville and Paducah this is about perfect. The big obstacle between them and Southern Illinois was the Ohio River. The had to sit there at Helam and build canoes and boats that could cross the Ohio river and then they had to walk from somewhere between Metropolis and Cairo to get to the Chain of Rocks and cross into St Louis. That is about 150 miles as the road goes. So about 15 miles a day if it took two days to get down either the Tennessee or Cumberland Rivers, It is a great fit.
I’ve been a member my whole life And honestly I always just thought in my mind that Nephi landed here.. and that this was the land all this time .. in my innocent mind I just assumed this the American continent was where it was.. lol I was shocked when I learned it wasn’t supported .. so I love this theory .. as he is …im converted spiritually first .. so I really just believe with my heart anyway .. but I love this guy!! ♥️
@@DavidSmith-cm9rq I don't buy into that at all. Show me the highways... show me the curelom and cumoms.. show me the medicine that reduces fevers... show me the walls so high that arrows could not even hit Samuel... show the the four seas that the entire land they were living on was surrounded by water... they said they were upon an isle. The US offers none of that. NONE!
I love Wayne May and I believe so much in his findings. I think of the Lamanite warrior skeleton that was found while Joseph Smith and the brethren were on their Zion's Camp trek. Joseph received revelation that this warrior was a Lamanite convert named Zelph and died from an arrow wound to the chest, for which the arrow head was found in the rib bones. This was a warrior that died at the great last battle at the hill Cumorrah, as Joseph said, then this proves that the Book of Mormon took place in the heart land of America. My reference to this Zelph, Zion's Camp trek, and Joseph Smith's revelation I read in my (7 volume set) Church History. 😊❤️🙏🇦🇺
Let's reason together. If i live in an apartment complex on Center street 2 blocks west of the Capital building in Salt Lake and someone breaks into my truck one night, it's outrageously unrealistic to think the burgler came all the way from Okotokes, Alberta, Canada. It's even unlikely they came from Magna in northwest Salt Lake. The burgler probably lives on the same block or maybe a block or two away! Similarly, the Nephites likely all lived in the Eastern US
Maybe initially. But remember... most Utahns look nothing like the first members. Utahns had a l8t of people join them just since the early members. They used to have darker hair and look more Welsh... dark and stocky. Now, much blonder and other Europeans. And it is still changing. Most members speak Spanish in the world. Race is... nothing for the definitition of Nephite. Even when Jesus arrived... they were all one people... "the people."
I’m open to any possibility, but I love this man’s sincerity, spirit and love for the BOM. Any evidence that brings Christ to light is good and I hope to see the mystery solved conclusively before I leave this earth.
I agree that it happened in the Heartland because when I piece it together in my mind. The Lamanite bones that Joseph dug up were on their way to Missouri to Zion's Camp. Also, the plates were found in UpState NY, the first vision was in New York, then Independence Missouri is the site of Adam-ondi-Ahman. It's MORE viable for me in the Heartland than in South America. I haven't done much research but I have heard many presentations on where is the land of the people of the Book of Mormon.
The BoM says that those who went into the land northward built with wood that they shipped from the land southward, and also with cement. They were not allowed to cut down any trees that began to grow, because the Jaredites had stripped the land so bare. I would love to know if any of the archeological evidence of that has been found in Canada yet. I find all of this so interesting!
This was a pleasure to watch, thank you so much! I do want to say, I was surprised when you said that Nephi taught his people to build in stone because I could have sworn that was not listed by Nephi....I checked and the scripture you are referencing says Nephi taught in all manner of "wood" it doesn't list stone. Also, any use of the word "stone" in the BoM shows up 94 times. 93/94 times, it is referencing altars, casting stones, brimstone, or figurative stones. The 94th time was when Cap'n Moroni was doing fortifying, which one could argue the places of refuge were not constructed with stone. That is my only gripe. Thank you again! Can't wait for more material. I am subscribing for sure 🤘
In 2004, Huaricanga, in Peru, was considered the oldest building site known in the Americas. They estimate that it dates from about 3500 B.C. They also estimate that in the next 1000 years, at least 25 more cities were built in the general area. (Charles C. Mann, "Before Columbus".)
I love this brother! I can feel his testimony and deep conversion and love the Book of Mormon. I, too bear witness of the TRUTH that is contained in the Book of Mormon. It has the fullness of the everlasting Gospel. I am curious about these things; but MORE important to me is living the precepts contained in the Book of Mormon to Build UP the kingdom of God to bring these truths to every honest and sincere soul to stamp out all the incorrect principles being taught in the world and the perversions that are given by the Father of Lies, who is Lucifer and his minions. ONE Day very soon. Men and Women throughout the world will live and die (spiritually) by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon, I so testify, in the name of Our Savior, even Jesus Christ. Amen.
From the churchs guide to the scriptures; Cumorah, Hill See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr. A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.
Everything that has to do with the con artist joseph smith is nothing but absolute fraud. It is all just manmade ungodly, unbiblical, fiction. Mormonism is just another false manmade religion of the spiritually dead and blind. Repent!
Just for the commenters to reference, here's the official statement from the Church: "The Book of Mormon includes a history of an ancient people who migrated from the Near East to the Americas. This history contains information about the places they lived, including descriptions of landforms, natural features, and the distances and cardinal directions between important points. The internal consistency of these descriptions is one of the striking features of the Book of Mormon. Since the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, members and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have expressed numerous opinions about the specific locations of the events discussed in the book. Some believe that the history depicted in the Book of Mormon-with the exception of the events in the Near East-occurred in North America, while others believe that it occurred in Central America or South America. Although Church members continue to discuss such theories today, the Church’s only position is that the events the Book of Mormon describes took place in the ancient Americas. The Prophet Joseph Smith himself accepted what he felt was evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations in both North America and Central America. While traveling with Zion’s Camp in 1834, Joseph wrote to his wife Emma that they were “wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls and their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity.” In 1842, the Church newspaper Times and Seasons published articles under Joseph Smith’s editorship that identified the ruins of ancient native civilizations in Mexico and Central America as further evidence of the Book of Mormon’s historicity. The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose. Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken. However, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urge leaders and members not to advocate those personal theories in any setting or manner that would imply either prophetic or Church support for those theories. All parties should strive to avoid contention on these matters. Speaking of the book’s history and geography, President Russell M. Nelson taught: “Interesting as these matters may be, study of the Book of Mormon is most rewarding when one focuses on its primary purpose-to testify of Jesus Christ. By comparison, all other issues are incidental.” Previously I had opinions to share on the topic, but I've changed my mind since watching this video, reading the comments, and reading this statement. I now plan to no longer claim I know where things happened and no longer cite references to make it seem like the Church or its leaders support my individual opinion. I do have one comment however on this video: In case no one has said this yet, the Nephites worked in cement, not stone (eg. Helaman 3). I suppose that could crumble more easily and would be difficult to find after all these years if so.
Wayne May is awesome. I like how he is tiring in the Vikings who were here and the Egyptians as well. They’ve found Egyptian artifacts in the Grand Canyon… there is so much unknown to us right now.
Thanks for interviewing Wayne May for details on the Heartland model theories. Looking forward also to a future interview with a good representative for the Mesoamerican model theories. My recommendation would be to have them on separate episodes. I think if you try to try to interview them together there will be too much contention and 'debating' going on, which will be a major distraction for the viewers. Based on what I see of both Wayne May and Rod Meldrum, they are both very opinionated and their research methodology regarding archaeological and anthropological evidence is totally different than the methodology used by the prominent Mesoamerican theory scholars. Many years ago I read John L Sorenson's book, "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon", and more recently I read his newer book "Mormon's Codex". I found both books very fascinating, especially Mormon's Codex, and they go into great detail regarding the many correspondences with the little that we know from the Book of Mormon regarding historical details. I highly recommend reading "Mormon's Codex" to get a good understanding of the Mesoamerican model. I lean towards that model, but don't rule out other possibilities. I believe it to be the best theory that we have so far. I do think we have to be careful though to not get too confident in any particular theory and I guess that's one of the things that makes me a little uncomfortable with the Heartland theory proponents, as they seem really 'convinced' that, for example, that the Zarahemla site is across the river from Nauvoo. They also seem really confident and convinced in other 'evidences' that they present. I prefer to exercise much more caution and skepticism regarding archaeological evidence and findings, and lean more towards traditional scientific methodology, more towards the type of methodology that John Sorenson presents in his books that I mentioned, and what Brant Gardner and other scholars make use of. For a really good series of videos giving a good description/overview of the Mesoamerican model and the remarkable convergences with the Book of Mormon, I highly recommend viewing the youtube channel "LDS Truth Claims", episodes 14-19. Regarding the idea of Moroni transporting the plates from where the ancient hill Cumorah was, to the hill later called 'Cumorah' in New York, I also consider the likely possibility that Moroni, as a resurrected being, could easily have transported the plates from wherever he buried them in 421 A.D., to the drumlin hill in New York state at some point during those many many years leading up to Joseph Smith's angelic vision in 1823. I do feel strongly that no matter which theory we espouse we should remain open minded to new discoveries as they come, and be ready and willing to abandon our current 'pet theory' if the new evidence warrants it, as well as be understanding of others who have different theories. This reminds me a lot of the different opinions regarding the hows of creation, both within our church and within Christianity as a whole, with some believing in a young earth creation and not in evolution and others believing in an old earth as mainstream science believes, as well as in evolution. Most heartlanders I know also tend to be young earth creationists and most Mesoamerican theory believers I know tend to believe in an old earth, non-worldwide flood, and in evolution, but I'm sure there are exceptions. I believe that's also why our church doesn't take any official position on any of these theories (creation, Book of Mormon geography, world-wide flood, etc.).
I have travelled the I-75 corridor many times between Toledo and Cincinnati over the years crossing through the Maumee River / Lake Erie and the Miami River / Ohio River Water sheds and noting the natural beauty of the area in between farms. Often times Contemplating Life and Spiritual Matters many times listening to Church talks and BOM on the 3+ hour trip and being distinctly spiritually impressed that this is a very special area. We have also visited areas around Cincinnati, like Fort Ancient and the Pyramid Hill area along the Miami River. We always felt something undeniable every time passing through the Pyramid Hill area. Pyramid Hill is just south of Hamilton Ohio and there has been some recent Private Conservation efforts to purchase land in that area to stop development. I am Wondering what if any thing will be found out there ???
Wayne May is great. Thanks for putting this together. As soon as I learned of the Heartland I was an instant convert to it. Learned a few new things. BoM text and archeology points to Heartland as Wayne May wonderfully demonstrated.
@@lindamartinez7006 No, he never said anything like that. The Hill Cumorah in New York is not the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon and was not called the Hill Cumorah until the mid-1830s, long after Joseph had retrieved the plates from the hill. There’s no evidence from the 1820s and 30s that Joseph Smith ever called this the Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery was the one who started calling it “Hill Cumorah” and it caught on and became the name the Saints culturally assigned to the hill. The first time Joseph Smith calls it Cumorah, which is recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 128, is after the membership had already started calling it by that name, and Latter-day Saints have been calling it Cumorah ever since. This idea came from Mormon 6:6 which says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord…” If you stop reading there, then you could say Joseph found the plates in this hill because Mormon said he buried them in the Hill Cumorah. However if you read the rest of the verse it says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, *save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”* In other words, Mormon buried all of the records he had in the hill Cumorah *except* the Book of Mormon record, which was later buried by Moroni. So the hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon is literally the place where Mormon says the golden plates *are not* buried.
I love listening to Wayne and I believe 100% in the heartland! The United States is the promised land and no where else. I loved what he said at the end...Jesus easily could have visited Central America, but the Book of Mormon took place right here in the USA!
Before there were huge debates on this topic while growing up, when it was more widely guessed that they first landed in South America, I just always assumed that over the 1000 year span (600 BC to 400 AD) that occurs in the BoM that they gradually migrated up from South America through Central America into North America until they reached as far north as upstate NY at the end where the plates were buried. So I always figured the BoM occurred in all three - South America, Central America, and North America. And that the Jaredites landed in North America. But I have never had any firm opinion on where all of the events in the BoM took place. The only thing I had always felt certain about was that since the plates were buried by Moroni in upstate NY, that was where the BoM ended. I really loved this vid which supports the events of the BoM. It was very interesting and included a lot of awesome evidences! I always love learning about archeology and history. And I especially loved hearing about Wayne's conversion he had long before he ever started looking into archeology. I'm looking forward to more vids here that will cover all of the evidences in each location. Thank you for providing this both educational and faith building content. 🙏
That town he mentioned while explaining where the name "Hopewell" came from--Chillicothe, Ohio? I was born and raised there for the first 20 years of my life. The earthworks and mounds all around that area are incredible, and the sheer amount of history surrounding that land and the people that inhabited it would fill volumes upon volumes. Growing up a member of the church over there helped me connect the dots between the Book of Mormon and the secular history I learned in school, leading to a very deep spiritual witness that important events in The Book of Mormon took place on that very land. As for specific models, they can vary, but I believe that area is of particular importance to the Savior. In other news, there will be a total solar eclipse on April 8th, 2024 that passes right through that area, completely covering Kirtland and Palmyra. The path of that eclipse, combined with the one in August 2017 (7 years prior) will form an "X" over the heartland region, just at the New Madrid fault zone. To me, it's a clear message that this land is extremely important to him, regardless of exactly where The Book of Mormon took place.
I...would be very careful in connecting dots like these. I don't think the Lord would be using solar eclipses to tell us where Book of Mormon events happened. He's more concerned about us reading the book and gaining a spiritual testimony of it. Geography is a distance 2nd or 3rd to that.
@@andrewjeppesen2369 I appreciate the comment. I will say that my testimony of The Book of Mormon is based on the truths and doctrines within and not merely on physical or geographic evidences. Perhaps it is a stretch to say that God is using astronomical signs to point out that the heartland is where The Book of Mormon took place. But to those who already have a firm testimony of that same book, modern-day prophets, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I believe that God absolutely wants us to connect the dots and receive the signs that he has provided to prepare ourselves for the future, including those in the sky. There is scriptural basis for this all throughout the scriptures, especially in the creation account in Genesis.
Awesome job, brothers! I am 68 years young and as a lifelong member, I was taught young that the Mayan peoples and temples came after the Book of Mormon and were no relation to the Nephite peoples. It is amazing to see how different generations try to change the history. That is a sign of something that smells fishy to me!
I think it's interesting that some of these weapons have a similar blood channel as the Jericho sword. I blacksmith and it is much easier to make the channel concave than to have it protrude. Most swords have a concave channel. I think it's kind of unique.
The problem with only looking at geographical info to decide where the Book of Mormon takes place is that you’ve missed very important information in the Book of Mormon. One very important thing is the Law of Moses. It couldn’t have been practiced in Meso America. They didn’t have the plants and animals and harvesting times they would have needed. I read an article by a Meso person about making exceptions or changing from a lunar based calendar. Why would the Lord put his people in a land, tell them to practice the Law of Moses only for them to have to make exceptions? He wouldn’t.
I’m a big fan of Wayne May. I’m excited for your channel. I think this is great. I would recommend on less uh huhs and and little interrupters. Though you got better throughout the video. Good job guys!
I'm Yaqub Masih originally from India. I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints in 1980 along with my wife and son. I gained my spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon by reading from it's pages and then prayed about its truthfulness and gained testimony and joined the Church and never looked back since. Did I look for geographical or archeological proof? No, I obtained my testimony from the Spirit.
A testimony is best.
The other stuff... is just interesting.
But the important stuff... the stuff that matters for salvation, doesn't require a doctorate to do.
🤣🤣😂😂🤣🤣 Wow!! A TESTIPHONY!!
It's interesting, but it also disproves that the BoM is impossible.
Wayne May is so awesome! I'm Native American I do believe it happened here because of some of the stories that are told by my elders.
Can you share any of those stories?
Thank you for sharing!
At the age of 16 Joseph would tell the most profound stories about the Native Americans as if he lived among them, their dress, manner of travel, religious practices, etc. Where do you think Joseph learned so much about the Native people from?
Moroni
@DavidSmith-cm9rq Do you have a reference for that, or is that just more of a subjective opinion?
I Know the Lord visited my Taíno ancestors! Thank you! I will pass this channel to my grandkids🇵🇷❤🇵🇷
Many Taino also have Jewish DNA... probably because of the Spanish ships, I am guessing. A friend of mine has Taino... AND Ashkenaz (east European Jewish) DNA.
Interesting history. There were some who had to hide their beliefs even on the Island.
If they were from first temple diaspora... the DNA would be different. Maybe more like Iberian Sephardi DNA? Or what we see in the Arabic world Jews, less the other influences.
What I like about the scriptures... not all of it is Jewish. Jaredites are off to the side after Nimrod. Not Jewish or even Israelite... even pre-Abrahamic.
Wait until we learn about ALL the people G-d has dealings with and learn the context to understand how it fits. I want to see the older African histories and pre-Semitic languages... closer to that Adamic languages that we will obe day learn about. Or all the other migrations to the Americas (and other places).
Well yes of course he did. I think something that people.foeget is that he visted all nations aftwr he visited the nephites. He went to Australia, europe, asia, africa, South america and central america. He visited them but only after he visited the posteriry of lehi who lived in americas heartland
I read the Book of Mormon once a year for 13 years after getting married and knew the first two Books of Nephi did not support central and South America. There was too many prophecies that only for North America. About 13 years ago, I found Wayne May and knew I found the answers to my doubts about Central/S America! Love not feeling alone with my inspirations from so many years ago!
That’s an awesome story thanks for sharing. And keep reading the Book of Mormon annually. 👍🏼
Wayne is the guy!
People in the Church need to understand the quiet history of the disappeared Hopewell/Adena, that they match the archeaology of the Nephites and Jaredites. Since Joseph Smith, the church has been somewhat obsessed with t he flashy archaeology of Central and South America. A "voice from the dust" matches the Hopewell lost civilization.
I wouldn't say the "Church" is (referring to the organization) as much as LDS scholars at BYU.
I understand the draw, Central America has so much more "stuff" to look at and study, whereas the United States has been swept clean by westward expansion over the centuries. I don't like to make claims on where exactly I think it happened, but after studying the Mayan and Olmec civilizations for years, I am convinced they both came from China, Indonesia, Cambodia and other places in south east Asia. The culture, buildings, and language are too perfect a match.
@@andrewjeppesen2369
Probably a mix of several groups over time... but heavily Asian influenced.
The best way to see things:
Clear lines between
1) known and
2) evidentiary/speculatuve categories.
If something confirms what you already think... pro or against... that's the best time to double check something and avoid embarassment.
The Navajo (Din'eh) have many stories that seem to come straight out of the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel, including that they came from the east, that the earth was formed or organized and that all beings had awareness or intelligence before coming to mortality.
Navajo or din eh are Athabaskan (Alaska) for one, they invaded the hopi, or Anasazi . They don't like each other , I hopi keep to themselves and seem to be most reclusive?
From what I understand from a Din Eh who tells their history online broke away or were lead out from the tribes in the Eastern US as everything was breaking into war and everyone left of the 2 warring factions (one of them white both very evil) and they escaped and joined up with the cliff dwellers
Cool. If the Navajo are descended from the Lamanites, then we should be able to find Hebrew/Semitic DNA among the Navajo.
@@randyjordan5521 Actually, yes! Haplogroup X is found in some Navajo. The source I found indicated that this haplogroup, linked to pre-Columbian transatlantic migrations, is found in 7% of Navajo and in much higher populations of other tribes such as Ojibwa and Sioux.
@@jimashman6251 "Haplogroup X is not evidence for the Book of Mormon to be true....the one found in America is not a descendant of the one found in the Middle East. It is a sister group. It is not an ancestral or a descendant group."
---LDS geneticist Ugo Perego
The haplogroup x marker which is found in some native American tribes occurred tens of thousands of years ago, in the eastern hemisphere, before their ancestors ever migrated to the Americas. Thus, haplogroup x does not support the authenticity of the BOM at all.
Please do another interview with Wayne May. He has soooo much more to share. He covered maybe 5% of the evidence he has.
I’m so glad you were able to connect with Wayne May. I really feel like this idea needs more exposure
I may have something of an answer to the Hill Cumora issue:
If Moroni travelled 3000+ miles to bury the plates, he certainly would have had to leave Lamanite territory. But not only was he still actively fearing for his life as he was finishing up the Book of Moroni, I'm sure he was killed by Lamanites soon after he successfully buried them. That means he must have still been in Lamanite territory, which means that either the Lamanites roamed the Heartland, or the plates were teleported.
Fantastic point! Thank you for sharing. I doubt the Lamanites would bother embarking on a 3000+ mile goose chase! Haha
@@theservantgazelem7 Bro are you okay..? haha
one would think after these many years, one can sit down in a church and carry on with salvation, but alas no we cant, we have to discuss the authenticity and truthfulness of a church that will never have a end its place with righteous people who want to get on with there bloody lives without this mess. its just a house of confusion. it can not stand , in fact it stands divided.
IMO, the Meso American theory is ridiculous.
I remember back in 1994 when I was working way up high right next to the foothills of the mountain in Bountiful Utah. I was helping repair a leak on a concrete tile roof on this old house when an elderly native guy showed up out of nowhere. He started telling me about when he was a boy and used to play high up in the Wasatch mountains. One day there was a small earthquake and he said that a cave opened after the rocks fell away. He said that there was many metal books stored in this cave. He took one to the church headquarters to show them what he had found. The church asked where he found it and they actually went out and inspected the cave. In the end they closed the opening back up and told him that it was not the right time for this to be seen. I asked him if he was a member and he said no but he knew enough of the church when he found the metal books to show them. What made him tell me this story I may never know. But I thought it was interesting!
Can you elaborate on this story? It sounds interesting
😮
wwhaaaaat???
A round table discussion with all different BoM Geography experts would be AWESOME!
We need that. To my knowledge it has never really happened before and it SHOULD. There are some weapons of war that need to be buried with some of the parties. Pun intended :)
@travplay and @andrewjeppesen2369 stay tuned, we are working on it.
This is fascinating, but at the same time IMO a very slippery slope. I’m cautiously curious about the end consensus because the Heartland camp has some compelling arguments (even though they are taking liberties with scientific and historical data to try and make it fit their story…. At the same time the South America camp has some compelling arguments (Even though Joseph Smith was very clear that all of this took place on North America Soil.
Both sides have hard evidence to show how the other camp can’t possibly be True. There is a reason the LDS church went against what Joseph Smith said and declared that it must have happened in South America.
Of Course Non LDS or Post LDS have a laundry list of inconsistencies of the BOM and it’s historical accuracy.
I just feel like if you have this debate, both sides are going to show how and why it couldn’t possibly happen at the other sides location. Where does all this leave us?? Why are both sides to so Adamant on putting forth proof that their theory is correct and the other couldn’t possibly be true?? When people withhold parts of historically research and data that is accepted among respected scholars and replace it with non published questionable research and claim it to be accurate then nobody wins.
I feel there is enough actual data out there coming from NON LDS people that the LDS community doesn’t need to add anymore gas on the fire with debates like this.
Like I said cautiously curious about where this argument lands on both sides. But more cautious than curious.
@@user-sj5ux7ut1j You've hit on a very important topic that I've thought about before.
Despite the angry rhetoric and bitter feuds between mesoamerican advocates and heartland advocates, both sides seem to forget that neither has the data to prove the other wrong while proving themselves right.
It's all still theoretical. So if you look at it in context, it's two sides arguing which has the better theory. I think they often forget that. It seems silly to spend so much time arguing when we are still at a theoretical stage for both sides.
When it comes to geography I wish everyone would calm down and start with the basics. The only pin in the proverbial map we can make, is the Hill cumorah in New York because that's where the plates were buried. That's the only verifiable book of Mormon location we know of. Everything else is theory.
@@andrewjeppesen2369 I think that's right. All we really have as evidence is that Joseph Smith found the plates of Nephi deposited in a hill in upstate New York (which hill would later come to be known as Cumorah). I still think civil conversation on this matter is necessary and completely possible because I've seen it done many times over (and, most importantly, because we all have our own personal witness that The Book of Mormon is true). The only people that I've seen form their belief of The Book of Mormon (or lack thereof) around locations and archeological evidences are those who have yet to join the church.
A roundtable conversation among good faith actors on either side would not/should not put one's testimony of The Book of Mormon or the church into question, even if he is swayed to either side.
Wayne May got me back to the Book of Mormon. His work is the only piece of the puzzle that fits.
@@seektruth1360
Please don’t lecture me on the church. Sometimes you look, work, and pray for the truth for a very long time. Sometimes your blessed with the power of discernment, and the Holy Ghost will lead you to what is right.
You have no idea where I come from and the experience I’ve had.
@@seektruth1360 While the BYU uses trickery to teach the meso model which frankly is a pile of you know what. I lived in Mexico where these ruins are, near Merida and visited many. They do not fit time line at all, nor usage, nor with archeology. The BYU and almost all LDS scholars believe their own opinions are superior to what Joseph actually taught. So they weaken faith and trust in Joseph Smith, building themselves up as experts. To me the LDS scholars are apostates but loved within our current way things are. Joseph never taught Meso! Period. A seer or a prophet could know what is true about so many issues but there are none of those around apparently. So we will wait for a new Seer and Translator to return so we can receive the sealed portion and not have to listen to Scribes and lawyers from BYU.
@@troymitchell1747
Maybe @seektruth1360 has given you the right answer you have been seeking for assuming you have not got your answer already. Do you think that it could be a possibility that seektruth1360 has given you the right answer you have been seeking for? Just curious.
God bless you and yours and take care.
Not being contentious; according to the Book of Mormon itself, Nephites did occupy what is known currently as the heartland of the United States of America. However, what many don't understand is who these Nephites were or where they came from; applying all of the BOM narrative and its insightful passages tells us who they were, how, and when they got there. The Book clearly says these Nephites left the main BOM southland of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated north, some by land, some by ship crossing a sea to the north country. The Book's own narrative says Zarahemla & Bountiful were in the southland of the continent (Mormon 1:6); besides a land route, there is also a sea between Zarahemla and the north country where the New Jerusalem will be built. Alma 63, Helaman 3, mentions the migration of Nephites by the thousands all across the continent, these groups left the main Book of Mormon lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful, we do not have the full history of these migrated Nephites. Mormon only briefly mentions them. However, thanks to Moroni's updates during the 36 years he wandered the continent after his father and people were destroyed in the land of Zarahenmla, we do know the demise of the northern Nephites, as being the same as the Nephites gathered at Cumorah in the land of Zarahemla in the southland of the continent.
Here's an alignment check, a "thought-provoking question" so to speak, for those who listen to the heartland theory; knowing from the Book's narrative that the narrow neck of land is near Zarahemla, and the migrated Nephites left from the land of Zarahemla, if any of the narrow strips of land, between any of the Great Lakes, is the narrow neck of land, and if any of the Great Lakes, is the sea thousands of Nephites sailed across to the choice north country; where does that place the choice land where a New Jerusalem is to be built, Canada?? The thought makes reason stare.
Another alignment check; according to the BOM narrative, the New Jerusalem is to be built in a choice land north of Zarahemla. The town built by the Latter-day Saints in Iowa, and honorarily named Zarahemla is northeast of Independence Missouri, which would place New Jerusalem Southwest of Zarahemla, not north as the book indicates. The Latter-day Saint built Zarahemla in Iowa, is not the BOM Zarahemla.
Any Nephite evidence discovered anywhere on the continent of North America validates the full Book of Mormon narrative, AND precisely collaborates Joseph's statements of wandering over the plains of the Nephites & the Zelph (converted Lamanite) story. And yet Zarahemla will always harmoniously be in the southland of the continent as the Book describes, which precisely fits south of Independence Missouri. It's all accounted for in the BOM folks. Don't let modern day distractors with "evidence" and "shiny trinkets", distract you from the Book's own narrative. Any evidence found anywhere on the continent, does not eliminate that there were Nephites elsewhere on the continent. By the book's own narrative, there were Nephites all across the continent, including the southland where Zarahemla was.
Joseph has declared the whereabouts of Zarahemla. And no, he did NOT identify the town developed by the Latter-day Saints across the river from Nauvoo as the Book of Mormon city of Zarahemla, the one burnt at the time of the Savior's crucifixion. The town named Zarahemla in Iowa, is just an honorary name. Much like the Bountiful in the new world, was named in honor of the Lord's blessings of Bountiful in the old world, and further much like the city of Bountiful north of Salt Lake City is just an honorary name and not the same city of Bountiful in the Book of Mormon. There are dozens if not hundreds of examples of these honorary type names of places of the Book of Mormon or Bible.
The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; Book of Mormon & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph precisely claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America. The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message are descriptions of where and when it took place.
Joseph Smith as editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff unitedly, as editors, published an 'important fact' in the Church's paper the Times and Seasons on October 1, 1842, entitled Zarahemla, They declared Zarahemla was in Central America, specifically within the borders of Guatemala. They went on to clarify they weren't declaring or naming a specific ruin as the exact location of the city of Zarahemla within Guatemala. As further support in the T&S declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes Alma 22 describing the setting and region where Zarahemla was. There's no hearsay about it; we have the publication, it's real. The Church has never refuted the publication or claim. In fact, the Church's current statement on BOM geography verifies Joseph as editor during the publications relating to the BOM geography articles. It also says Joseph believed there was Nephite evidence in both North and Central America; both are on this continent, as Mormon calls it. This cannot be discounted away, it's a fact in the history books. Look it up and read it; this T&S editorial is simply wonderful, notice how the editors clarify the city of Zarahemla, as the one burnt at the time of the Lord's crucifixion; why would they need to specify the Zarahemla burnt at the Savior's crucifixion; isn't there only one Zarahemla? Because, they knew there was another city, with the name of Zarahemla, developed by the Latter-day Saints across the river from Nauvoo. Joseph, John, & Wilford clarified it so no one could be confused by the different Zarahemla in Iowa. No need for speculation, Joseph clears it all up in the same edition of the T&S. Thanks, Brother Joseph!
Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and not in control of what was printed in the T&S. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was published in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the inspired editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up, so future generations wouldn't have to speculate about it or rely on conspiring men.
Here's an interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have seen on available maps regarding Guatemala's borders when Joseph made his declaration; google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed!
No scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; the BOM in Mormon 1:6, Alma 22, Alma 63, Helaman 3 already take care of it, it's in Southern region of the land surrounded by seas. Joseph's declaration in 1842 confirming Zarahemla being in the Southern region of this continent, aka Central America today, is just icing on the cake. All things considered, it all fits precisely as stated both by Joseph and the Book of Mormon narrative. Best wishes in your journey!
It's so blatantly obvious that the Book of Mormon took place where Joseph and Oliver said it did, North America.
Read my comment.
The problem with Heartlanders is they have a hard time understanding that Mesoamerica is in North America. In their lust for phony nationalism they've brainwashed themselves to actually believe the events of the Book of Mormon had to have taken place exclusively in what is today the United States of America even though it didn't exist back in the Book of Mormon times.
Yea… I have learned and researched a lot of more interesting facts than brother may. He’s good but, valley of grivalva is North America too , so is the Yucatán . I like the idea it could be the hopewell, in 3 nephi . Says all the lands west to east , north and south , …. That’s pretty much north and South America, you folks seem to not understand , runners only takes 2 to 3 weeks to run from Peru , to the Great Lakes. Yes runners could cover 200 miles in 2 days. Mongols traveled 3000 miles on pony express in Asia in 2cweeks. ….
Wayne is such a genuine guy. Great interview. He's filled with the spirit. Heartland model has always made so much sense to me. Truth is sweet to the ears. I do think it's quite possible, however, that Christ ALSO visited Meso America... and that's why there's some evidence there, too. Heavenly Father loves ALL of his children. Two things can be true at once.
Wayne is right on with all the proof we need to understand where the Book of Mormon took place. Thanks Wayne for all you have done and continued research!!
I love Wayne May. He has given us such a treasure of knowledge regarding the American setting of the Book of Mormon.
Regarding the identity of the Hill Cumorah, do our scriptures not tell us, "And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets-the book to be revealed." (D&C 128:20).
What little I know about the heart land makes sense to me. It’s logical and I find it very interesting. I joined the church in 1979 in central Pennsylvania that is where I have lived my whole life. I could never understand how anyone could not think the Book of Mormon happened in the United States. It’s just so logical.
It is not logical whatsoever. It couldn't have taken place in the modern USA borders. Helamen 3:3 says they went northward, Helaman 3:6-7 and Helamen 3:10 says that there was no timber so they built houses using cement. The only place in the USA that has that kind of geography and evidence of cement housing being used anciently is Arizona and Texas, mind you the Book of Mormon says all this is going on North of the main body of Nephites or where the story has been taking place. There are multiple other places that say they spread across the land, which is why you see evidence of some Nephite culture so far north.
Alma talks of a guy, Hagoth, building ships and sailing from the west sea and coming back once and then these people were never being heard from again. The heartland model has Lake Michigan being the west sea talked about. Lake Michigan isn't that big and can be traveled around so it does create a weird issue of why they were never heard from again, especially because this is Mormon writing this centuries later.
There is never a time where the story talks about the cold or snow, which the US borders that the Heartland model has would have gotten. And considering the Lamanites were supposed to be *naked or have little clothing,* how could they have survived in the snow?
The Heartland has the Mississippi as the water that Moroni's army wades across, you cannot wade across the Mississippi River both during that time and now.
@@dylanwilliams2202This is very convincing.
@@gordianknot9595 The Book of Mormon is the true word of God who tells of a real family who crossed the sea and arrived in America and a real people who sprang from them with real cities being built and battles taking place. Nephi, Alma, Helaman, Captain Moroni, Mormon, Moroni and every other named person were real people. There is no room for it to be "inspired".
If you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints then repent of your error. I say that partially jokingly but also seriously.
@@dylanwilliams2202 there are answers to the points you make.
@@TimKirkpatrick79 Lol not good ones
Wayne May is who I credit for my increased testimony of the Book of Mormon. I served my mission in Honduras, back then I taught the people that they were living in the land of the Book of Mormon. I did believe it then but since have really questioned that idea since I could not find any solid evidence to point to what I actually read in the Book of Mormon. After watching Wayne May for the first time, I came to the realization that, first the Book of Mormon is still true, and it did not happen in Central America. Oh, and if you love a deep dive into scriptural origins, look no further than Bruce Porter. Bruce is also a heartlander.
Absolutely probably one of THE best podcasts I have subscribed to in a while.
I have been a HUGE fan of Wayne Mays for years. I have followed his work and read every book he has read and even this interview he said more things I didn’t know yet. Great interview. I live in ohio and I am certain the BOM happened here in many places. We have found some cool stuff😁 This was great fellas! I think Wayne Mays work will be more known in the years to come! I’ve read “The Mystic Symbol” by Henrietta Mertz about 4 times, I’ve read “Antiquities of New York” I’ve read the book or Mormon in the Heartland by Rod Meldrum. So many more. Go find these books and you’ll be amazed! Also find the surveys done by Squire and Davis. Amazing!
😅oillu
@sarahbean6170
There was about 20,000 people who boarded ships in the west sea and sailed North. That was before the destruction of the Nephite People at the hill Cumorah. And the hill cumorah was in the land northward... but these people left from Zarahemla which was in the land southward.
4 And it came to pass that in the thirty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, there was a large company of men, even to the amount of five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward.
5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.
6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.
7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.
So according to Brother May... which was the west sea???
@@sarahbean6170 I tell you what amazes me. The people who built the ship and traveled on the ocean to get here... don't know the difference between a salt water ocean and fresh water lake. Yet they call four of them sea east, sea west, North sea and south sea. what did they do with the 5th Lake??
😂 hearing new things sweetheart? Thats because anecdote and BS can be made up on the spot. Go back to putting your jigsaw puzzle together with a hammer
Find Walter Martin talking on the Mormons. Sister.
Wayne May is the Best! Thank you for this video.
I was watching a Jewish rabbi who said that they leave the last letter of the name of God off because it’s so sacred to them they don’t want to fully write His name 32:40
Strange Rabbi, because Jews never write YHVH, as it's not the name of God, but a placeholder for the name of God.
The real name of God was removed from the Torah to prevent blasphemy, and replaced with the tetragramathon of YHVH.
When read in synagogue or in prayer, YHVH is pronounced as Adonai which means my master.
In everyday speech, HaShem, the name, is used.
Thus YHVH is never written as yhv as that is absolutely meaningless and serves no purpose. H' is written in place of YHVH in everyday Hebrew writing.
Out of respect, Jews will write G-d and L-rd in English.
The angelic name of satan ending in El, was also removed and replaced with the word satan, aka deceiver.
Always enjoy listening to Wayne May. This theory needs more exploration.
We agree! Help us get to his place and we will pump out hours of content.
@@thestickofjosephI've asked this before about the heartland theory but never get an answer. What about Hugh Nibly stating in his biography that of all his travels to meso America he has never found one bit of evidence that the BOM happened there? 🤔
@@kimhaughton3771 Because archaeology takes time. It wasn't until 2018 with the LIDAR System it was discovered that Mesoamerica has cities and large urban areas that have yet to be explored and that date to the right time for the Book of Mormon where millions of people lived in, just like the Book of Mormon says. In the Book of Mormon it says that some cities were sunk in water (3 Nephi 9:7). There is a lake in Guatemala, Lake Atitlan, where Archeologists in 2011 actually discovered a city that was buried under the water that they called Samabaj. And they’ve actually gone in and found pottery from this and it’s dated to the pre-Classic period, which is 600 BC to 250 AD.
Only pottery ! The people from India and korea made pottery. They were the settlers in South America
@kimhaughton3771 that actually fits heartland theory. Heartland theory says the book of Mormon took place in the heartland of the United States. So not finding evidence in meso America fits that perfectly.
I wanted to thank you for having Wayne on. Whenever anyone shows an interest in him (I have read nearly all of his work), my first go-to RUclips video is entitled:
Book of Mormon geography in North america- Wayne May
It is 6 years old and runs 1:23:26. I would include the link, but RUclips usually yanks comments with any links. You will not be disappointed watching this video! Here you will see all of the charts, pictures, citations, scriptural, references, and graphics to really understand what this model is all about. Those that take the time to attack it have never really taken the time to delve into it. Anytime I have had someone watch this video completely, they come away at least acknowledging that it is a valid proposal.
As for the model being racist . . . Since everything these days is racist . . .
Keep going, guys! You are producing great stuff! You apparently have no fear when it comes to the trolls that come out of the woodwork. That must mean that you are onto something!
So the Channel is "LDS Archeology" and the video name is what we see above. The run time I see is only 1 sec different.
Is it the mark of new ignorant to brand everything they don't like with "racist" ?
Me too! I’m a huge believer! We used to live in Ohio and I have no doubt the things from the BOM happened here. So cool!
Thanks for this, I was going to say the video here and the narration is all over the place, it is no real great presentation of the model.
Can you give us a list of non-Mormon scholars who agree with Wayne May's views about the ancient inhabitants of the Americas?
What about the Holy Bible first and not Joseph Smith?
There are just so many possible parallels of the Heartland model that give the Book of Mormon credibility.
I also think the geometric earthworks have many temple symbols, the circles and the squares. There's a great presentation on RUclips from a member who puts together that theory. That to me is most compelling because they were made during the "Golden age"of the Hopewell during 1AD to 400AD. Which is the Zion period of the Book of Mormon.
Too bad they didn't use the Cross so your mind would be sent to Christ instead of Works.
This comment makes no sense- he’s talking about “earthworks” like they threw up for the revolutionary war as well… not works as in the acts you do.
@redfightblue there are alot more symbols of Christ and His Divinity than just the cross of Calvary. All of which point us to Him as the Savior of the world and the central and most critical part of the Plan of Salvation. But yes it's too bad they didn't make a cross, it would've made things alot easier to understand who they worshipped.
@@TheHappyNarwhals My comment was about Grace vs Works. Christians use the symbol of the Cross to represent Grace. Freemasons us the symbol of the Compass and Square to represent Works.
@@establishingzion688 I just don't think Native Americans had any knowledge of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses, Passover, Circumcision, or The Cross. Once I found where these things were in that time frame, I finally understood the Book of Mormon.
At around 12:49 he claims no where else in the world dug ditches and installed palisades? The Motte-and-Bailey was a common form of fortification during the Middle Ages. It consisted of two main elements:
Motte: A large, steep mound of earth or stone, usually topped with a wooden tower or keep. The Motte served as the primary defensive position and was the last line of defense against attackers.
Bailey: A lower, enclosed courtyard adjacent to the Motte. It contained various domestic structures, such as houses and workshops, and served as the first line of defense. In times of danger, people from the surrounding area could seek refuge within the Bailey, protected by the elevated Motte.
Several ancient civilizations, such as the Celts in Europe, constructed hill forts during the Iron Age. These forts were usually situated on prominent hills or ridges and had defensive ditches and wooden palisades to protect the inhabitants.
In feudal Japan, fortified hilltop settlements known as "yamajiro" were built during the late Heian to early Muromachi periods (11th to 15th centuries). These settlements followed a similar concept to the Motte-and-Bailey design, featuring a hilltop fortification with wooden or stone structures.
The Dong Son culture in ancient Vietnam constructed fortified settlements with wooden palisades and defensive ditches during the Bronze Age.
They keep calling the fortifications, "palisades" and the very word "palisade" comes from the Latin word "palus" which means "stake". The word originally applied to a series of stakes set in a row to form an enclosure or fortification. This was an incredibly common means of fortification all over the world...
davidroth1011. Thank you for the lesson. It was fun to read. I have not heard about evidence of that in Meso America, so I think his point has validity; despite your accurate details.
I believe what he meant to say was in the Americas, he simply misspoke
I live in Texas but would gladly travel to attend Brother Mays lecture. So much fun to watch, learn from him.
Great video!! Wayne is a personal friend of mine, my husband and I got to spend five hours today with him and his ground penetrating radar team today looking for some new things that he’ll be sharing soon. We’ve taken two tours with Wayne and Ryan Fisher they were awesome. If you haven’t toured with him you definitely should it will make the Book of Mormon come to life. We love Wayne he’s a great guy!!
I enjoyed watching Ryan Fisher’s videos back in the day. Do you know what’s happened with him? Haven’t seen much from him in quite a while.
@@GrgMRnlds86 Ryan is a friend of ours too, we visited with him and his family when we were in Utah last April. He’s doing good but very busy working on other projects and attending to his fatherly duties. He’s a great guy and a top researcher so I believe we’ll be seeing him again soon sharing more truth about the Book of Mormon Evidence’s.
I definitely lean toward the heartland model. The fact that most of the learned people from BYU lean toward the Mesoamerican model gives me that much more confidence in the heartland model. There is archaeological evidence on both sides (though stronger for heartland, imo) but I believe that the doctrinal evidence supports a North American model much better.
2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.
30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
I tend to wonder if they merely stick with Mesoamerica because it’s a money maker they use for tours etc.
@@binmyrtmind and they are larping as Indiana Jones wannabes!
@@binmyrtmind I imagine that could be part of it. I do believe that they believe it. I have a very well-informed friend who has studied this topic in-depth and has come to the conclusion that he believe Mesoamerica fits better. I've listened to his reasoning and I wasn't persuaded, but I do know he is a very smart and honest person. I don't know where it took place, and it doesn't really matter to me as far as a testimony is concerned, but even from a young age, when I would hear people talk about Book of Mormon stuff from a Mesoamerican or South American perspective, it didn't ring true to me. When people talk about it as if it happened in North America, that does. But maybe that's just my American bias talking. I personally haven't studied the Mesoamerican evidences quite as thoroughly as the Heartland evidences.
@@user-yr9lt7dz8kthis is a very bad faith scriptural reference. People who actually are experts in their fields should be dismissed because you think they must not care for God's counsel? What is this nonsense! Mesoaerican scholars in the BYU are very well awere of what the book of Mormon says. They seem to be far more thorough in their approach to these studies. They are also more cautious in their claims, something that is a huge problem with the heartlanders, they are so sure of their position, even though much of their claims are interpretatios of scripture and less of actual anthropology and archeology. Much of the heartland archeology does not convince me as evidence of nephites. Sure it may have been but the data does not convincingly demo strate this to be true at all. The idea that nephites could ha e been spreading to north also is scriptural and very likely, but this doesn't prove heartland.
This is where your rubber meets the road for your channel. I hope you emphasize, endlessly, that you are sharing perspectives and evidences without interjecting your personal beliefs into the conversation. This topic you have chosen is LITERALLY a dividing issue in the church and opinions are extremely strong on both sides. As for which one is correct? We will know when we know but it has nothing to do with our eternal salvations.
I once has a philosopy teacher who was an expert at talking about a subject from both sides of the issue without ever giving you a sense of what side he personally took. I wish you luck. LOL
Excellent comment and I wholeheartedly agree. The small factions of the church that fight over this need to drop the contention. Sadly I was wrapped up in that for a time (on both sides).
I love Wayne May. I could listen to him all day talk about the Book of Mormon lands and the proofs he’s found to place it in North America. The gentleman man he talks about who discovered the temple in Tennessee did write a book and I’ve had the privilege of seeing the only copy available to the public. I saw it in the main Quaker headquarters in the U.K I went there to copy the book for Wayne. I was very lucky that they left us to read it and to copy it. Great find.
Actually there is also a copy in New Jersey at Princeton, I borrowed it last summer :)
Interesting read, although it appears Harris never actually went to Tennessee, he just saw photos and gave his thoughts on them.
Just wondering... any idea what is a curelom and cumon are?
@@MrNirom1 No idea. I've heard theories about it being Llamas and Alpacas, to Mammoths and Horses, or Horses and Buffalo (which seems unlikely). Makes one wonder though.
@@andrewjeppesen2369
May was wrong in thinking that Williams said 30 degrees N Latitude. It was actually 30 degrees S latitude was the landing site.. And you will find the llama and alpaca in the Andes in Peru but not in North America.
@@MrNirom1 I don't know that I have an opinion on that yet. I'll need to go look at what Fredrick Williams actually wrote down.
WAYNE MAY!!!!!!! SOOOO glad you guys got him on!
Wayne May is amazing! I love that man an soooo much and his research is much appreciated! I’m so grateful he is willing to share with us!
As a die hard Mesoamericanist I can openly say that he is a nice guy. I talked with him years ago at their BOM Lands conference. Him and Bruce Porter are good guys for sure. I completely disagree with their geography for the BOM for many reasons but love them both as fellow saints for sure. And I’m glad you guys are doing these interviews.Keep up the good work.
We need more of that respect! Thank you for setting the example.
What do you think of the fact that the plates are found near the heartland area? (Sincere question, not here to argue)
even if Joesph Smith's comment differ from meso your not believing what he said?
@@DavidSmith-cm9rq what did he say?
Also, not here to argue, but what about Zelph's Mound where Joseph Smith said the skeletal remains were from a Jaredite? What about the location of Zarahemla as being identified by Joseph Smith as across the river from Nauvoo? And those Nephites and Lamanites must have had some awesome quads and calve muscles, as they walked from Central America to North America and back and forth, right? Not being rude, just a thought-provoking question. :)
The messenger that rode with Joseph and David Whitner on their way to the Whitmer home to translate, he stated that he needed to go to Cumorah and left the company and continued via wagon to Fayette.
In September 1878 Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith departed Salt Lake City for a trip to Missouri to interview David Whitmer, the last surviving witness of the Book of Mormon. During the interview of David Whitmer by Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, several questions were answered by David Whitmer. Their conversation with David was printed in the Dec 1878 Millennial Star. Here is part of what he said.
“When I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an oldfashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with “good morning it is very warm” at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly “No I am going to Cumorah.” This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around enquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.”
J.F.S. Did you notice his appearance?
D.W. I should think I did. He was I should think, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set, about such a man as James Vancleave there, but heavier; his face was as large, he was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like Brother Pratt’s, but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in shaped like a book. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. Soon after our arrival home, I saw something which led me to the belief that the plates were placed or concealed in my father’s barn. I frankly asked Joseph if my supposition was right, and he told me it was. Sometime after this, my mother was going to milk cows, when she was met out near the yard by the same old man (judging by her description of him) who said to her: “You have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tired because of the increase of your toil; it is proper therefor that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened.” Thereupon he showed her the plates.
Mary Whitmer always referred to the messenger who showed her the plates as “Brother Nephi”, but her grandson thought she meant Moroni so the narrative got changed.
contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/MStar/id/27175
My policy is to not give rides to zombie hitchhikers.
@@brucelloyd7496 Nephi was a short fat man?
@@grneal26 That is the way David and Mary Whitmer described him.
@@grneal26 yes
More Wayne May! He's one of the most fascinating people ever! We're always looking for new videos from him! He's wonderful!
Love Wayne May and this interview, especially his off the mainstream sources that make sense.
I spent a month in Mexico- saw many pyramids, ruins and museums. The amount of ancient artifacts is mind blowing. I have never been on a Book of Mormon lands tour, but I can imagine how easy it would be to find what you need in South America to make just about any connection and any conclusion you want. It must be so much harder to find any evidence in the USA- but to have found this much is more compelling to me for some reason. I would love to hear more about it!
The temples in MesoAmerica are not Israelite, they are Hindu and were built 900 to 1400 years after Christ visited America. There is no way Christ stood on the temple grounds at Bountiful in MesoAmerica.
They probably had some overlap. Go to Mexico, see a Home Depot, and then say they aren't American (USA American). Try to say they don't have DNA we do up here. So much overlap. Obviously some concepts are there but... it gets jumbled. Maybe the BoM lands are up here, but they aren't excluded either. Maybe we will find out the aealed portion covers more than what we know.
So fun to see Wayne on fire sharing his research with the young men. Wayne's research and findings make reading the book of Mormon so much fun to know that the location is here in America, the promised land. All the pieces fit perfectly together.
incredibly excellent interview. I really loved it. I have found many of Wayne Mays videos and writings. They are very compelling to me. I am especially concerned with the existence in the ruins and temples of South America of steps.. It was never allowed in Old Hebrew temples, else you could see under the skirts of the priests and it would break the commandments and be immodest. They are definitely not Hebrew connected temples. And that has bothered me for ever. But everything about the heartland and the ruins has made sense to me. I think Wayne May got it right. I think others are covering up or excluding much to be able to prove their points. God bless Wayne, as he continues this reveal. If he is wrong, I know he would definitely admit it, but I am sure that he has so much proof now that he is just waiting for more evidence to come forward as time goes by to finish his work. Hope that makes sense. Thank you for this interview.
Great video! Just a critique. Hayden, at 1:37:45-1:38:00 you mistakenly mention how Nephi taught his people to build with stone either at the end of 1 Nephi or the beginning of 2 Nephi. To clarify, I think you're looking for 2 Nephi 5:15 which is when the Nephites separate from the Lamanites to a place they called Nephi where they built a temple. Verse 15 explicitly mentions that Nephi taught his people "to work in all manner of wood" and never mentions stone which would backup what Wayne is saying. He continues in verse 16 that they constructed the temple after that of Solomon "save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land."
Glad you noted this too. It was bugging me because that statement does not appear. Thanks :)
@Sully7001 and @andrewjeppesen2369 you are both correct! Thank you so much for the correction. I wish I could edit it after it was up!!
I think he is a meso guy down deep
@@DavidSmith-cm9rq Well if so, it's a perfectly valid opinion to have :)
I have been aware of, as well as convinced of, the United States being the land of the Book of Mormon for quite a few years. When it was first presented to me, my reaction was, "Of course, it just makes sense".
There are many others besides Wayne May who also have written and lectured on this subject, probably best known among them is Rod Meldrum.
I also have a good friend in my ward, who is married to one of my cousins, who's father wrote 2 books on this subject, called:
"Return to Cumorah" and "The Other Side of Cumorah", by Duane R. Aston.
The Forward is written by T. Eugene Shoemaker, who was a Poly-Sci professor at California State University Sacramento, my high school best friend's father, our Home Teacher for most of my youth, our Bishop for a time, and finally the person with whom I watched the moon landing in July 1969 on a little black and white TV on his front porch. 😊
I am also familiar with Brigham Young's discourse about Joseph and Oliver going into the cave in the Hill Cumorah and finding "wagon loads" of plates, as well as the Sword of Laban. I have always thought that the "wagon loads of plates" were all the other plates from which Mormon and Moroni abridged the record onto the Gold Plates (as well as other sets of plates), which he then, of course, buried at the top of the hill and led Joseph to. If my idea is correct, that those are what the other plates are and if there had been "another Hill Cumorah" in Central America, then Moroni would have had to, not only carry the one 60 pound set of plates which he buried near the top of the hill, but he would also have had to transport many many hundreds of pounds of plates over the 3000+ miles ALL BY HIMSELF .
And as a final note, I have my Grandmother's 1917 edition of the Book of Mormon, which still has the footnote to Chapter 6 of the "Book of Mormon's, Book of Mormon" which says "the Hill Cumorah is in Manchester, Ontario, Co., N. York. (I'm sure that saying, "Book of Mormon's, Book of Mormon" will be confusing to those who aren't familiar with it, but I wrote it that way purposely, to hopefully spark some curiosity and maybe some research).
Okay, dissertation over... 😋
Thank you very much for sharing. Yes! We know it's true!❤
So where are the wagon loads of plates and other artefacts now?
Wayne May is the man
I love this guys enthusiasm....
I met a guy who was from a tribe in Mexico and he told me and my companion he definitely believed in a white god who came in ancient times to his people, when I was on my mission in the Pacific Northwest. He told us this story was passed down throughout generations. 1:44:44
I heard a similar story on the History Channel from the Aztecs where a white man came & told them He would be back.
When the Spaniards came the Aztecs thought Cortez was that white man that was to come again.
The Narrator didn’t know who that white man is that the Aztecs wrote about but we know that white man is Christ.
Except Jesus was not a white European man but rather a brown skinned Jew from Galilee.
@@changwanchoe however it could be in reference to their own skin color they may have been darker skin and to them white was anything lighter. Just a thought.
They also have a eucharist ceremony documented by priests. There are some errors obviously... it was corrutpted but some.ideas are there. They also disbelieved the creation story as being "too" similar to the Christian version but then found out it wasn't invented after the priests arrived but predated them. Even if it isn't 100% inbred Lamanite lineages... it still has a story. But I am guessing there are multiple lineages.
It's very possible that Jesus visited other peoples as well, after his resurrection.
THANK YOU FOR LOOKING AT BOTH SIDES!!! NO ONE IS DOING THIS.
While I no longer take sides in the Book of Mormon geography fight (I've been on both sides over the past 30 years) I am still VERY interested in where it could have been and certainly still have opinions.
For a small section of the church, this has become a very nasty and contentious issue and that needs to stop. It's all theory and BOTH sides need to remember that. I wish Saints Unscripted would take a lesson from both of you instead of blinding picking one side (something they have done before). The in-fighting needs to stop and people need to remember that NEITHER side has any advantage over the other in terms of hard evidence.
Look forward to more, good work guys!
Personally, I like the mesoamerican model. It makes the most sense for me, from how I understand it, but if it's the heartland theory that's true, that's fine, too.
@@bplionel2 Indeed. It's nice to be able to be a step back and play devil's advocate for both sides. Quite refreshing in fact.
@andrewjeppesen2369 We will continue that!
Thank you so much for sharing this. Have a good day.
Love this
There is a tribe in Chile that had such a perfect spoken history that when they heard the book of Mormon the whole tribe was converted. The church did and article from back in 2012 I think I remember reading it and sharing it with my uncle that served in Chile for his mission but had fallen away from the church.
Oh my gosh...i just shouted so LOUD...I have LONG had my very own (unsupported) theory that natives of South and Central America (Inca, Maya, Aztec) are related to Indo/Asians...my theory is simply the physical likenesses. When Brother May presented that book I jumped up! I will definitely seek out this publication.
All of this is incredibly interesting!
Great presentation! We've been following Wayne May's information for years. It makes perfect sense and all fits together! A great series is "Hidden In the Heartland." Yes, the Book of Mormon is absolutely true and the word of God. Yes, "this land is a land choice above all other lands." The American continent is where the Garden of Eden was. It's where the Book of Mormon took place. And it's the land where religious freedom could make the Restoration possible! I testify that these things are true. :)
I remember learning about the Hopewell moundbuilders. I wondered about these mounds and its relationship to the book of mormon mentioning earthen fortifications, mass graves, etc. It is a very interesting theory.
I have really enjoyed reading Wayne's writings and videos. I used to believe it was further south in the Meso area like so many others believe. What changed my mind to accept it's the heartland area, is because this land in the United States is the promised land. The Book of Mormon with its two groups of people were led to the promised land. That says it right there. "Promised Land". I was always a little bothered that the theory of the Book of Mormon people being in the Meso area because that was not the promised land as we know by revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith. When I learned of these things that Wayne has explained, I finally felt satisfaction. Great video and interview! I would love to meet Wayne someday. He was born to do this. God bless him!
As a non believer I had several snarky comments ready to post all thru the video but I gotta say you guys did a great job asking some key questions and pushing back on some of his claims. At several points you showed sincere interest in finding truth instead of just accepting everything he said.
Great interview and great video. I'm still far from agreeing with you guys but keep up the good work and I look forward to you guys getting more interviews in the future.
So happy to hear that. We are doing our best!
For Wayne this was not a good interview, he missed so much trying to get so much out in the short time. He skipped around getting off the path. need to have a redo interview, I love wayne.
@@DavidSmith-cm9rq Yeah, I don't think Wayne came off very well in this one. A lot of his evidence seemed to be relying heavily on comments/stories from random people he's met and most of his artifacts sounded like they have very questionable origins (not properly documented or found in context). I'll be open to listening to him some more in the future but for the time being I'm very skeptical of his claims.
His claims are not solely his own they were presented to him. He just had seen increasing parallels with more findings, the Jewish/ hebrew, law of moses parallels, findings that were hidden because of American Indian mistreatment. Americans not been good to it historically past treasures
A lot of Native American history is oral history. That in and of itself creates a lot of challenges for documentation unfortunately.
Wood was used in the middle east from King David, down to Christ. Stone was used for foundations and wood was used for roof supports and for decor.
This is a fascinating discussion!
Thank you brethren for sharing ❤️ and prayers
The legend is in the house awesome work guys 😁
1:52:50 just scratches the surface of the massive amount of evidence; geological, archaeological, native folklore and languages, DNA, artifacts, etc. that there is to support the Heartland model of where the Book of Mormon took place. The most important thing, however, i 1:52:50 s what the scriptures and the Prophet Joseph say. They say it took place in the Midwest of this country, The Promised Land. Wayne's new magazine, Land of Promise, is fantastic.
@@gordianknot9595 There is no cure for willful ignorance. Choosing to be blind, closed minded and biased never served anyone well. May God bless you and yours. May you never be without and enjoy good health. Our Father in Heaven loves you.
@@gordianknot9595 I knew you'd respond like this. I've heard it all before. I used to be where you are now. I had filled my heart with suspicion and accusation. I was ready to lash out at anyone who rubbed me the wrong way. Why does it bother you so much that I don't go along with what you surmise to be the truth? Relax and let go of whatever hard feelings you have. Brotherly love and patience my friend.
I appreciate this show Stick of Joseph . Great topics on the Book of Mormon
The Chattanooga/Nicknack setting is just perfect for that part of the Book of Mormon. It took twelve days for the People of Alma at Helam to find Zarahemla after they left escaped the Lamanites. If the were anywhere between Nashville and Paducah this is about perfect. The big obstacle between them and Southern Illinois was the Ohio River. The had to sit there at Helam and build canoes and boats that could cross the Ohio river and then they had to walk from somewhere between Metropolis and Cairo to get to the Chain of Rocks and cross into St Louis. That is about 150 miles as the road goes. So about 15 miles a day if it took two days to get down either the Tennessee or Cumberland Rivers, It is a great fit.
Thanks for interviewing Wayne, I feel many of the questions asked by people, can come here and get some of them answered.
I’ve been a member my whole life
And honestly
I always just thought in my mind that Nephi landed here.. and that this was the land all this time ..
in my innocent mind
I just assumed this the American continent was where it was.. lol
I was shocked when I learned it wasn’t supported ..
so I love this theory ..
as he is …im converted spiritually first .. so I really just believe with my heart anyway .. but I love this guy!! ♥️
Joesph Smith agrees with you Lehi and his famliy lived in this counrty. Land of Liberty and Freedom like the BOM says
@@DavidSmith-cm9rq I don't buy into that at all. Show me the highways... show me the curelom and cumoms.. show me the medicine that reduces fevers... show me the walls so high that arrows could not even hit Samuel... show the the four seas that the entire land they were living on was surrounded by water... they said they were upon an isle. The US offers none of that. NONE!
I've gone back and forth on this theory. It's interesting if nothing else. Definitely worth considering.
Just believe what Joesph Smith says about all of this.
I love Wayne May and I believe so much in his findings. I think of the Lamanite warrior skeleton that was found while Joseph Smith and the brethren were on their Zion's Camp trek. Joseph received revelation that this warrior was a Lamanite convert named Zelph and died from an arrow wound to the chest, for which the arrow head was found in the rib bones. This was a warrior that died at the great last battle at the hill Cumorrah, as Joseph said, then this proves that the Book of Mormon took place in the heart land of America. My reference to this Zelph, Zion's Camp trek, and Joseph Smith's revelation I read in my (7 volume set) Church History. 😊❤️🙏🇦🇺
..on ya mate!
Zelph died in Illinois not Cumorah in New York. The last battle(s) were from 325 to 385 AD.
Yebo yes! This man has my attention. . I really enjoyed his previous tubes. Pls keep teaching. We are so privileged to be on Earth at the same time!
Let's reason together. If i live in an apartment complex on Center street 2 blocks west of the Capital building in Salt Lake and someone breaks into my truck one night, it's outrageously unrealistic to think the burgler came all the way from Okotokes, Alberta, Canada. It's even unlikely they came from Magna in northwest Salt Lake. The burgler probably lives on the same block or maybe a block or two away!
Similarly, the Nephites likely all lived in the Eastern US
Maybe initially. But remember... most Utahns look nothing like the first members. Utahns had a l8t of people join them just since the early members. They used to have darker hair and look more Welsh... dark and stocky. Now, much blonder and other Europeans. And it is still changing. Most members speak Spanish in the world. Race is... nothing for the definitition of Nephite. Even when Jesus arrived... they were all one people... "the people."
Really enjoyed this video
I'm happy I found your channel!
I’m open to any possibility, but I love this man’s sincerity, spirit and love for the BOM. Any evidence that brings Christ to light is good and I hope to see the mystery solved conclusively before I leave this earth.
I agree that it happened in the Heartland because when I piece it together in my mind. The Lamanite bones that Joseph dug up were on their way to Missouri to Zion's Camp. Also, the plates were found in UpState NY, the first vision was in New York, then Independence Missouri is the site of Adam-ondi-Ahman. It's MORE viable for me in the Heartland than in South America.
I haven't done much research but I have heard many presentations on where is the land of the people of the Book of Mormon.
Awesome video, incredible how much information there is that seems to be unknown!
The BoM says that those who went into the land northward built with wood that they shipped from the land southward, and also with cement. They were not allowed to cut down any trees that began to grow, because the Jaredites had stripped the land so bare. I would love to know if any of the archeological evidence of that has been found in Canada yet. I find all of this so interesting!
I love Wayne May! Will he be doing any tours in 2024? Great job guys!
www.goanddotravel.com/_files/ugd/d0077e_4a61e34b15e04e1daeeb96a6b79d9d57.pdf
This was a pleasure to watch, thank you so much!
I do want to say, I was surprised when you said that Nephi taught his people to build in stone because I could have sworn that was not listed by Nephi....I checked and the scripture you are referencing says Nephi taught in all manner of "wood" it doesn't list stone. Also, any use of the word "stone" in the BoM shows up 94 times. 93/94 times, it is referencing altars, casting stones, brimstone, or figurative stones. The 94th time was when Cap'n Moroni was doing fortifying, which one could argue the places of refuge were not constructed with stone.
That is my only gripe. Thank you again! Can't wait for more material. I am subscribing for sure 🤘
Love Wayne. That’s how I found your channel
In 2004, Huaricanga, in Peru, was considered the oldest building site known in the Americas. They estimate that it dates from about 3500 B.C.
They also estimate that in the next 1000 years, at least 25 more cities were built in the general area.
(Charles C. Mann, "Before Columbus".)
This is SO GOOD! Keep up the great work, guys! The work you are doing is so important, more than you even know.
Oh my gosh, I loved this! The information that Wayne has shared and received goosebumps.
Great interview stick guys.
I love this brother! I can feel his testimony and deep conversion and love the Book of Mormon. I, too bear witness of the TRUTH that is contained in the Book of Mormon. It has the fullness of the everlasting Gospel. I am curious about these things; but MORE important to me is living the precepts contained in the Book of Mormon to Build UP the kingdom of God to bring these truths to every honest and sincere soul to stamp out all the incorrect principles being taught in the world and the perversions that are given by the Father of Lies, who is Lucifer and his minions. ONE Day very soon. Men and Women throughout the world will live and die (spiritually) by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon, I so testify, in the name of Our Savior, even Jesus Christ. Amen.
Very interesting! I believe his theory!
From the churchs guide to the scriptures; Cumorah, Hill See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr. A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.
Everything that has to do with the con artist joseph smith is nothing but absolute fraud. It is all just manmade ungodly, unbiblical, fiction. Mormonism is just another false manmade religion of the spiritually dead and blind. Repent!
Just for the commenters to reference, here's the official statement from the Church:
"The Book of Mormon includes a history of an ancient people who migrated from the Near East to the Americas. This history contains information about the places they lived, including descriptions of landforms, natural features, and the distances and cardinal directions between important points. The internal consistency of these descriptions is one of the striking features of the Book of Mormon.
Since the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, members and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have expressed numerous opinions about the specific locations of the events discussed in the book. Some believe that the history depicted in the Book of Mormon-with the exception of the events in the Near East-occurred in North America, while others believe that it occurred in Central America or South America. Although Church members continue to discuss such theories today, the Church’s only position is that the events the Book of Mormon describes took place in the ancient Americas.
The Prophet Joseph Smith himself accepted what he felt was evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations in both North America and Central America. While traveling with Zion’s Camp in 1834, Joseph wrote to his wife Emma that they were “wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls and their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity.” In 1842, the Church newspaper Times and Seasons published articles under Joseph Smith’s editorship that identified the ruins of ancient native civilizations in Mexico and Central America as further evidence of the Book of Mormon’s historicity.
The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose.
Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken. However, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urge leaders and members not to advocate those personal theories in any setting or manner that would imply either prophetic or Church support for those theories. All parties should strive to avoid contention on these matters.
Speaking of the book’s history and geography, President Russell M. Nelson taught: “Interesting as these matters may be, study of the Book of Mormon is most rewarding when one focuses on its primary purpose-to testify of Jesus Christ. By comparison, all other issues are incidental.”
Previously I had opinions to share on the topic, but I've changed my mind since watching this video, reading the comments, and reading this statement. I now plan to no longer claim I know where things happened and no longer cite references to make it seem like the Church or its leaders support my individual opinion.
I do have one comment however on this video: In case no one has said this yet, the Nephites worked in cement, not stone (eg. Helaman 3). I suppose that could crumble more easily and would be difficult to find after all these years if so.
Cement is defined as a binding agent that is used to bind various construction materials.
@@shadowknightgladstay4856 Yes; it's also defined as a building material.
Interesting interview!
Love Wayne May.... and Tim Ballard !!!! great job guys
Wayne May is awesome. I like how he is tiring in the Vikings who were here and the Egyptians as well. They’ve found Egyptian artifacts in the Grand Canyon… there is so much unknown to us right now.
Thanks for interviewing Wayne May for details on the Heartland model theories. Looking forward also to a future interview with a good representative for the Mesoamerican model theories. My recommendation would be to have them on separate episodes. I think if you try to try to interview them together there will be too much contention and 'debating' going on, which will be a major distraction for the viewers. Based on what I see of both Wayne May and Rod Meldrum, they are both very opinionated and their research methodology regarding archaeological and anthropological evidence is totally different than the methodology used by the prominent Mesoamerican theory scholars.
Many years ago I read John L Sorenson's book, "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon", and more recently I read his newer book "Mormon's Codex". I found both books very fascinating, especially Mormon's Codex, and they go into great detail regarding the many correspondences with the little that we know from the Book of Mormon regarding historical details. I highly recommend reading "Mormon's Codex" to get a good understanding of the Mesoamerican model. I lean towards that model, but don't rule out other possibilities. I believe it to be the best theory that we have so far. I do think we have to be careful though to not get too confident in any particular theory and I guess that's one of the things that makes me a little uncomfortable with the Heartland theory proponents, as they seem really 'convinced' that, for example, that the Zarahemla site is across the river from Nauvoo. They also seem really confident and convinced in other 'evidences' that they present. I prefer to exercise much more caution and skepticism regarding archaeological evidence and findings, and lean more towards traditional scientific methodology, more towards the type of methodology that John Sorenson presents in his books that I mentioned, and what Brant Gardner and other scholars make use of.
For a really good series of videos giving a good description/overview of the Mesoamerican model and the remarkable convergences with the Book of Mormon, I highly recommend viewing the youtube channel "LDS Truth Claims", episodes 14-19.
Regarding the idea of Moroni transporting the plates from where the ancient hill Cumorah was, to the hill later called 'Cumorah' in New York, I also consider the likely possibility that Moroni, as a resurrected being, could easily have transported the plates from wherever he buried them in 421 A.D., to the drumlin hill in New York state at some point during those many many years leading up to Joseph Smith's angelic vision in 1823.
I do feel strongly that no matter which theory we espouse we should remain open minded to new discoveries as they come, and be ready and willing to abandon our current 'pet theory' if the new evidence warrants it, as well as be understanding of others who have different theories. This reminds me a lot of the different opinions regarding the hows of creation, both within our church and within Christianity as a whole, with some believing in a young earth creation and not in evolution and others believing in an old earth as mainstream science believes, as well as in evolution. Most heartlanders I know also tend to be young earth creationists and most Mesoamerican theory believers I know tend to believe in an old earth, non-worldwide flood, and in evolution, but I'm sure there are exceptions. I believe that's also why our church doesn't take any official position on any of these theories (creation, Book of Mormon geography, world-wide flood, etc.).
I have travelled the I-75 corridor many times between Toledo and Cincinnati over the years crossing through the Maumee River / Lake Erie and the Miami River / Ohio River Water sheds and noting the natural beauty of the area in between farms. Often times Contemplating Life and Spiritual Matters many times listening to Church talks and BOM on the 3+ hour trip and being distinctly spiritually impressed that this is a very special area. We have also visited areas around Cincinnati, like Fort Ancient and the Pyramid Hill area along the Miami River. We always felt something undeniable every time passing through the Pyramid Hill area. Pyramid Hill is just south of Hamilton Ohio and there has been some recent Private Conservation efforts to purchase land in that area to stop development. I am Wondering what if any thing will be found out there ???
Wayne May is great. Thanks for putting this together. As soon as I learned of the Heartland I was an instant convert to it. Learned a few new things. BoM text and archeology points to Heartland as Wayne May wonderfully demonstrated.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Joseph Smith has says many times where the Book of Mormon took place . Ohio and the hill cumora.
@@lindamartinez7006 No, he never said anything like that. The Hill Cumorah in New York is not the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon and was not called the Hill Cumorah until the mid-1830s, long after Joseph had retrieved the plates from the hill. There’s no evidence from the 1820s and 30s that Joseph Smith ever called this the Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery was the one who started calling it “Hill Cumorah” and it caught on and became the name the Saints culturally assigned to the hill. The first time Joseph Smith calls it Cumorah, which is recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 128, is after the membership had already started calling it by that name, and Latter-day Saints have been calling it Cumorah ever since.
This idea came from Mormon 6:6 which says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord…” If you stop reading there, then you could say Joseph found the plates in this hill because Mormon said he buried them in the Hill Cumorah. However if you read the rest of the verse it says “…I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, *save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”* In other words, Mormon buried all of the records he had in the hill Cumorah *except* the Book of Mormon record, which was later buried by Moroni. So the hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon is literally the place where Mormon says the golden plates *are not* buried.
@@thestickofjosephMay has quite an imagination, too bad he hasn't a single clue to back up his promotion of your ridiculous cult...?
I love listening to Wayne and I believe 100% in the heartland!
The United States is the promised land and no where else. I loved what he said at the end...Jesus easily could have visited Central America, but the Book of Mormon took place right here in the USA!
glad i found you guy's channel!
Before there were huge debates on this topic while growing up, when it was more widely guessed that they first landed in South America, I just always assumed that over the 1000 year span (600 BC to 400 AD) that occurs in the BoM that they gradually migrated up from South America through Central America into North America until they reached as far north as upstate NY at the end where the plates were buried. So I always figured the BoM occurred in all three - South America, Central America, and North America. And that the Jaredites landed in North America. But I have never had any firm opinion on where all of the events in the BoM took place. The only thing I had always felt certain about was that since the plates were buried by Moroni in upstate NY, that was where the BoM ended. I really loved this vid which supports the events of the BoM. It was very interesting and included a lot of awesome evidences! I always love learning about archeology and history. And I especially loved hearing about Wayne's conversion he had long before he ever started looking into archeology. I'm looking forward to more vids here that will cover all of the evidences in each location. Thank you for providing this both educational and faith building content. 🙏
I kinda lean toward the heartland theory myself great show
This is because you are totally Biblically illiterate and are Gods enemy.
That town he mentioned while explaining where the name "Hopewell" came from--Chillicothe, Ohio? I was born and raised there for the first 20 years of my life. The earthworks and mounds all around that area are incredible, and the sheer amount of history surrounding that land and the people that inhabited it would fill volumes upon volumes.
Growing up a member of the church over there helped me connect the dots between the Book of Mormon and the secular history I learned in school, leading to a very deep spiritual witness that important events in The Book of Mormon took place on that very land. As for specific models, they can vary, but I believe that area is of particular importance to the Savior.
In other news, there will be a total solar eclipse on April 8th, 2024 that passes right through that area, completely covering Kirtland and Palmyra. The path of that eclipse, combined with the one in August 2017 (7 years prior) will form an "X" over the heartland region, just at the New Madrid fault zone.
To me, it's a clear message that this land is extremely important to him, regardless of exactly where The Book of Mormon took place.
I...would be very careful in connecting dots like these. I don't think the Lord would be using solar eclipses to tell us where Book of Mormon events happened. He's more concerned about us reading the book and gaining a spiritual testimony of it. Geography is a distance 2nd or 3rd to that.
@@andrewjeppesen2369 I appreciate the comment. I will say that my testimony of The Book of Mormon is based on the truths and doctrines within and not merely on physical or geographic evidences. Perhaps it is a stretch to say that God is using astronomical signs to point out that the heartland is where The Book of Mormon took place. But to those who already have a firm testimony of that same book, modern-day prophets, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I believe that God absolutely wants us to connect the dots and receive the signs that he has provided to prepare ourselves for the future, including those in the sky. There is scriptural basis for this all throughout the scriptures, especially in the creation account in Genesis.
@@bheer98 Fair enough, thanks for the reply :)
I’ve heard it said that the two solar eclipses and the seven years between them could mark the seven years of tribulation from the book of revelation.
@@Jacob0506 I've heard that too, but I think that seven year period is more of a time for preparation than the actual tribulation
Awesome job, brothers! I am 68 years young and as a lifelong member, I was taught young that the Mayan peoples and temples came after the Book of Mormon and were no relation to the Nephite peoples. It is amazing to see how different generations try to change the history. That is a sign of something that smells fishy to me!
Great Interview!
I think it's interesting that some of these weapons have a similar blood channel as the Jericho sword.
I blacksmith and it is much easier to make the channel concave than to have it protrude. Most swords have a concave channel. I think it's kind of unique.
The problem with only looking at geographical info to decide where the Book of Mormon takes place is that you’ve missed very important information in the Book of Mormon. One very important thing is the Law of Moses. It couldn’t have been practiced in Meso America. They didn’t have the plants and animals and harvesting times they would have needed. I read an article by a Meso person about making exceptions or changing from a lunar based calendar. Why would the Lord put his people in a land, tell them to practice the Law of Moses only for them to have to make exceptions? He wouldn’t.
The law of Moses would not have uses rodents for sheep. Rodents were unclean.
So exciting to here more about Fredrick G. Williams, just discovered he’s my 4th great grandfather.
I’m a big fan of Wayne May. I’m excited for your channel. I think this is great. I would recommend on less uh huhs and and little interrupters. Though you got better throughout the video. Good job guys!