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Having a GAS with...Elliot Scheiner
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- Опубликовано: 28 окт 2021
- Today, I'm having a GAS with Elliot Scheiner, a prolific and much-loved studio engineer and producer.
Elliot began his career working with the legendary producer Phil Ramone.
Scheiner has since produced and engineered a range of artists, including Foo Fighters, Toto, Jimmy Buffett, Beck, Faith Hill, Steely Dan, Band of Horses, Ricky Martin, Sting, Bruce Hornsby, Paul Simon, B.B. King, George Benson, Chaka Khan, Van Morrison, Donald Fagen, Fleetwood Mac, Queen, Eric Clapton, Jackson Browne, Eagles, Aerosmith, Joe Jackson and Glenn Frey.
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Listen to the podcast here:
Apple: apple.co/3bVTHsQ
Google: bit.ly/3qmmVJS
Spotify: spoti.fi/3BZOB9l
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Having a GAS™ is the podcast that talks to the great and the good of the creative industries, and in particular finds out what makes great music for film, for TV, for advertising; for dancing to, for cooking to, f*cking to, and more...
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GAS™ Music is a music production agency in Manchester, UK. We compose and produce original music, create awe inspiring sound design and have a fully integrated audio post-production studio. We also have a great record collection, and welcome any additions, recommendations or criticisms.
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www.gasismusic....
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© GAS™ Music 2021
#ElliotScheiner #MusicProduction #MusicIndustry
Today, I'm Having a GAS with Elliot Scheiner, a prolific and much-loved studio engineer and producer.
Let us know what you think about the topics discussed below...
More Podcasts Here: ruclips.net/p/PLqTTXkHu-bI-evqrnPz9OtlNX_r65Mz48
Elliot is a legend! My favourite albums that he has engineered are Toto’s Tambu and Mindfields albums! 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
Mannn my favorite Al Schmidt joint of all time Ray Sings, Basie Swings. Never heard a better, robust & wholesome, modern punchy but all the depth possible big band recording. 6:28 ♥️
I'm stoked to check out more of these! I think this work is incredibly important and having the perspective of genuine legends on record for future generations. *Applause*👏👏👏
Thanks Lance, that's what we're all about. Loads more podcasts like this on the channel
Thank you very much!
Great Interview! Elliot is a legend. So much wisdom to share. With Lipuma and Schmitt now passed there isn't many quys working on this level.
Love ya ELS ....
Really appreciate Elliot's remarks regarding Dolby Atmos/Spatial Audio. To add a few of my cents based on my limited 5.1 mixing experience (in no way remotely close to Elliot's league…)
1) Atmos is a delivery format. Just like DTS, Dolby Prologic, AC3 are formats of delivery. The only difference is that Atmos is super flexible in speaker layout and especially translation up and down speaker layouts. Especially in a movie theater (for which this was designed), it works amazing. It will work for consumers too. The only thing: no consumer will have a discrete speaker setup matching the basic requirement within music (7.1.4).
2) The discrete speaker surround mixes work great in Atmos. It's a delivery format, you can literally convert your 5.1 mix, stick it in the 7.1.4 speaker bed, disable the side speakers, have nothing in the height speakers, and you have a fantastic translating mix which is 100% identical to what you would have found on a 5.1 SACD or DVD-A.
3) The real trouble starts with mixing down any surround format to binaural/stereo rendering. In practice, dolby atmos is not really used to deliver stereo, there usually is a dedicated stereo mix which is optimised and not how Atmos would render it from the immersive one. That is certainly true for music and I suspect it being true for cinematic releases (like on a blu-ray). But… the binaural mix IS an interpretation of your surround mix, crammed into headphones with the idea to immerse you as a listener. It uses filtering, delays to give you the illusion where sounds are positioned, based on the theories on how our ears work and can localise sound in 3 dimensions.
4) Apple is pushing Spatial Audio. If you have a discrete speaker setup, you can use Spatial Audio to basically stream surround mixes. That's no different than you streaming a netflix movie instead of sticking a blu-ray in a player. But… most people listen to music on headphones and Spatial is therefor defacto delivered on headphones. This means that you will likely hear the binaural render of the music. And THAT is not the same as the discrete surround mix but a very bad translating copy. Even more, Apple seemed to use their own rendering which differs from what Dolby would give you. So we have audio engineers complaining that their binaural checks using the Dolby Render suite doesn't match with what they now hear on Spatial music.
To me, the binaurals sound like doing a step backward. Yes you can deliver immersive experiences which extend your regular stereo experience on headphones. Just pan something from left to right and the Atmos Binaural will sound super smooth where this is not the case with regular stereo. But, what binaural delivers is not the same experience as the discrete speaker setup. And the problem is that you have no way to really optimise your binaural mix so that you can at least tailor (those render parameters like off, near, mid, far are a joke…).
Point in case: if you stick some reverbs in the rear speakers for ambience, the binaural mix will sound too wet, no matter which parameter you pick for the render. If you had the ability to control volume of objects or elements of the bed, that would help because then you have the ability to deliver a good sounding discrete speaker mix and an immersive headphone optimised mix which will immerse you as a listener, but just doesn't try to replicate the discrete speaker thing.
For now, what I think is a plus is renewed interest in surround sound. Most reasonable Atmos mixers are basically just doing surround mixing whereas they would have never done that with 5.1 The ability to stream it is nice. The ability to have some optimalisations is also a big plus (as some people do have 7.1 sets). But the downside is that the Spatial thing gives a bad rep and is a step backwards. With added insult to injury by letting all kinds of engineers just churn out mixes in order to "create content".
Atmos as a format is here to stay, seems like a convenient format to deliver surround content in. But surround music will remain a niché, discrete speaker setups will not be by the majority of consumers, and therefor this seems to me like an overhyped update of a regular surround format with a lot of parties on the losing side.
Has he got an earring? LOL.
Elliot Schreiner is a genius for sure. It's a sad state of affairs, however, when the singer-song writer ex-gr of David Crosby has to be Googled for an answer. What next? Dolby Atmos?
Elliot’s comments on mixing music in immersive are not aging well. I’d be very interested to hear Elliot’s take on Peter Gabriel’s interview about why his last album i/o is in immersive.
I’ve been dealing with surroundsound for over 15 years and Atmos now for almost 5. I watched this interview when it came out, and I was dumbfounded. So hard to see one of my early sound heroes so disconnected from actual reality and understanding of sound as it relates to music and how we hear in real life (ITD, ILD).
As far as music, think of a concert hall, immersive doesn’t mean ANY fancy panning has to occur. Binaural engines are finally starting to actually sound good. Eventually (because of the very fast development of game engines) we’ll be mixing the lower hemisphere of sound as well for full life-like experiences as/when needed. Till then, at least it’s all headed in the right direction.
I still don’t understand how Elliott could be so myopic about this. Many of his comments are so off base regarding how music is actually listened to in real life. Immersive and spatial audio does not belong to a company. It literally is how we experience life aurally. Atmos (which I use and mix in) is not immersive Audio in and of itself. Atmos is simply a delivery playback container that allows for automatic/proper crash down to whatever speaker configuration/system is being used for playback including headphones at which point it switches to binaural representation of the full immersive mix.
If Dolby went out of business tomorrow, immersive audio would continue. Immersive simply allows us to create audio mixes that go beyond the horizontal plane. Last time I checked humans appreciate being able to hear sound spherically. Check out the album from Peter Gabriel in Atmos (called i/o), also Quest For Fire by Skrillex. Two fantastic examples of what happens when people understand how to mix music in an amazingly artistic way that puts the listener inside the experience rather than just having sound pushed at them with traditional stereo or surround. It’s incredible on a full Atmos speakers based system, but it is also absolutely fantastic in just earbuds or headphones in binaural.
For the record, I’ve been dealing with making music and sound for 3D/4D film for almost 15 years and I have never been a fan of surroundsound because of how limiting it is . When something flies over your head it should actually sound like it’s flying over your head..
Immersive audio for cinema was such a game changer and audiences are impacted by it, but don’t realize it because it matches how we hear in nature so well, that we don’t even think about it. If they were to unplug the top speakers in the middle of a gentle immersive audio rainforest scene or a high impact action scene, both would be noticed dramatically.
If Elliott spent 15 minutes in my studio listening to some music mixed in Atmos, he would undoubtedly modify his statements, and I would be the first to give him full license to do so. Reality is after the first song that I would specifically choose for him to listen to we would be on the same page.
Elliot Scheiner===== Steely Dan
15:16 zomg how do you not know Jimmy Smith? Broooo pm me and lets discuss the Jazz and blues revolution that created the hippy movement and all the squirly events of that era. Bebop in the late 40s changed music for everyone of every genre. And it happens many times until 69 or so. Now Jazz is Classical instead of Duke Ellington’s definition but there are some real Sonic Warrior-Priests out there, pushing! :-) seriously hmu any time, love to chat