What does this Game Store Owner think of Warhammer: The Old World?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Inside Tabletop returns with more talks with folks inside the industry. This week we've got Chris, on of a pair of intrepid Independent Retailers here in Toronto who've been going it on their own hawking Toy Soldiers and their accessories in their beautiful location in Oakville's Kerr Street Village.
Today we're chatting about Warhammer: The Old World. Obviously it has the internet abuzz and has quickly sold out online... but on the mean streets of the Hobby Industry... what happened this week? Let's find out.
Check them out HERE: lordsofwargame...
If you're a Patron; this episode is also available as an exclusive audio Podcast today as well!
GMG is publicly supported. Become a backer on Patreon to ensure new content and that the Studio can continue: / guerrillaminiaturegames
Join us on DISCORD: / discord
Want to challenge Ash to a game? Email him at GuerrillaMiniatureGames@gmail.com or message him through his Facebook Page!
Follow Ash on Facebook: / outofthebasementintoth...
GMG Measuring Gauges and Tokens available HERE: deathraydesigns...
GMG T-Shirts and Hoodies HERE: shop.spreadshi...
Intro and Outro music used via Creative Commons "Benji" by Dyalla
If you want to hear more from Chris (and his Jay!) check them out here; youtube.com/@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905
I would be really interested in finding out what would happen to sales if they ran a 1500pt "fun" based event with a couple of little prizes for painting and points for diffrent things in different rounds (rather than a hardcore WAAC tournament).
I always ended up buying something and trying to finish an unusual army before fun events (even if I had 5 armies already)
My LGS took a unique approach with "upselling" Old world.
1) They committed to "legacy" factions being available to organized play.
2) They then pulled kits that were cross functional to old world for AoS and displayed them next to the old-world release section
3) Then they demoed the game with Legacy armies that had supported AoS kits.
This really drove interest from a purchasing standpoint and now have about 20 people in escalation league for Old world.
That’s great and well done to them! I hope they can keep getting that product in stock!
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames me too. It's good for the players getting into it, that their models are cross system compatible, especially with companies like mini wargaming providing conversion movement trays for round bases.
The fact that Lizardmen and Vampires have brand new AOS models that are the exact same units as Old World, and GW told people who want to play those armies that their armies aren't part of the Old World was a colosal fuckup.
Your shop sounds awesome.
Honestly as a MESBG player, Old World being that sort of slow burn game is a okay for me. I can’t keep up with 40K and AOS, I tried but ain’t for me. Old World is also a great excuse to finally sort out my big collection of metal dwarfs and get it on the table.
Absolutely. I think it’s going to fit really well in that category.
What is MESBG? Yes I am a newbie…. Sorry
@@steveisaak4320"Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game,". It's a really excellent game.
@@steveisaak4320 Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game ie the Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit game that GW has had since Peter Jackson LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring film came out in 2001.
These will be the people playing. People who already own minis.
I'm super excited to start playing Warhammer Old World. I grew up always wanting to build an army and play Fantasy but couldnt afford it during my early teens. As an adult having built a wood elves army for a 2nd edition AOS cities army, im excited to rebase them back to play Old World. The fascinating prospect is the concept of them releasing "new" army boxes (the preview of the orcs and goblins). Now I am basically going to wait for the release of Wood Elves, or High Elves if the chance comes along
I’m sure it will and I’m super happy you get the chance to experience it!
O get it, but what about the newbies? I want to get in, but am waiting…..
For most armies, buying the rulebooks is currently the only option
Sure is.
I think it's bizarre they didn't launch with at least four armies.
I wanted to buy models and couldn’t
To be entirely fair, there are a number of armies which you could buy from the AoS kits... or at least you could if they were not "temporarily out of stock". Dwarves, dark elves, Empire (if you use the new freeguild stuff), vampire counts, beastmen, warriors of chaos, daemons, skaven, ogres as examples.
@@Anchises one of the biggest mistakes they've done with the game imo is no having either cathay or kislev as an army being part of the launch, having a brand new army would certainly attract both old and new players alike to spend on this instead of just getting the books and playong with your existing toys or with 3d prints.
"We meant to do some work, but we just talked for eight hours..." Isn't that what counts for work on GMG 😄😄😄👍👏
Only if the cameras are on hahaha
When the Cameras are on is my favourite time 😄Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm with us all. @@GuerrillaMiniatureGames
Thanks for this guys. The very first video of GMG I ever watched was you two playing Age of Sigmar 1st edition as I was curious about the game and very VERY salty about WHFB getting nuked. I certainly dropped $$$ on the rulebooks as I already have 6 armies and really just need new movement trays. I also feel that most WHFB players have had 9 years without official rules and have learned to make due with 3rd party, 3d prints and ebay restorations. It kind of makes sense a lot of people would just get the books.
Absolutely. Theres almost forty years of product out there that people already have. Thats an iceberg of money not being spent because you’re releasing a product where the attention maybe outweighs what people need to buy to play?
#stillsalty #GWBlewIt
I would 1000% listen to you guys talk hobby biz every week, please make this a regular podcast!
It will be for the next few weeks at least
Hate to say this. I really do . However the independent gamestore is just a thing of the past. There are too many games and products available now and gameshops can't carry it all. So naturally a person has to turn to online buying. Gamers are very impulsive in general with they're spending. Add in the fact lots of gamers are insular and only play in they're own group of friends and some are frankly sick of meta and the competitive environment, I just don't see a path forward for the independent shop, especially if the economy continues to tank.
I wonder where folks will end up playing their games and meeting new gamers then… Amazon maybe. Lol
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Most older gamers already have there group & can recruit easily by online forum.
@@calvanoni5443 but then that becomes an existential crisis as it is then opaque to new people entering.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Yes exactly! As a Older gamer I've only ever played 3 times, the first two the experienced people destroyed my army, complete wipe. Last time was a fun scenario run by a moderator, it was a blast! My side won. Even though I owned 1st edition I never played it, but I collect minis to use in RPGs too. Now at 59, I met someone my age who used to play 40k & had his own business. But we play Frostgrave.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames So maybe GW should have done a skirmish game in the old World instead, it lowers entry points & let the old players use old models?
I sold all my old armies years ago, and am somewhat excited about the Old World release. BUT ... the current barrier to entry is availability. You literally can't buy the books, or the armies right now.
GW, "Sales of the Old World are disappointing."
Players, "Availability of the Old World is disappointing."
This is absolutely crazy to me!
@@euansmith3699 Haha. So true. That said I can still find box sets.
8th edition caused the burnout for me. I did not like the Step-Up rule at all and what it did to the fundamental dynamic of the game. It wasn't Warhammer anymore (to me). Also the lore was a bummer. I'm so happy and excited about TOW and the rules so far.
That’s awesome! It is very much like a mix of 6th and Warhammer Ancients which is a great pedigree for rules.
It’s funny how Tuomas Pirinen gets remembered so fondly for Mordheim. I love him most for the 6e Warhammer rulebook.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I agree. And I think there's a tonality carried over between those two games. I like my Warhammer covered in a little bit of Nuln Oil ;)
I simply can't see how this works out long term. A game that fell off and was discontinued when it was the number 2 game is supposed to revive without even one tenth of the support.
My friend group: "Wow, The Old World! Brettonians! So cool! No more Vampire Counts!? Grrr!"
Me: "So are any of you going to buy Old World armies?"
Friend group: *crickets*
That’s a really interesting experience… what was the reason? Had they don’t it before? Cost? Time?
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames They're Warhammer Total War players who say that they want the Old World to come back endlessly and have absolutely zero intention of ever supporting the game. They'll all be wearing surprised Pikachu faces if GW doesn't support it long term. I'd say the main barrier to entry is the effort of collecting armies, and the cognitive load of learning a new rule system. They have disposable income. It's so much easier for them to just boot up Warhammer Total War and play that instead.
@@stuartmc4422 That's absolutely been my impression every time someone says 'The Total War Boom will blow GW away' and I'm like... but those are people looking for a wargaming experience that's ready-to-go? The overlap of what they expect from their spare-time entertainment just isn't there for most of them (OBVIOUSLY some will get right after it immediately). Not enough for a ground-swell that's always thrown around. But... like commenting on the Internet, talk is cheap. Paying the Warhammer blood-price of time and effort isn't.
I played 3rd edition Fantasy and had a long hiatus from fantasy mass battle and like many, sold off my army. I always loved it and TOW hits at the right time
This is just one opinion (obviously) regarding the Old World: I am super excited because, when I was a teenager I always saw Warhammer fantasy and did not buy the models (mostly because I could not afford). I have ALWAYS liked Warhammer fantasy (the Old World). I think the nostalgia is quite a big factor. My personal hope, regarding gaming, is that the OLD WORLD does well enough to introduce newer players and reintroduce old players to warhammer fantasy skirmish and mordheim. I also hope the do a new Warhammer quest in the Old World.
Great convo from a very different perspective than we've heard on the youtubes.
Anecdotally... I was one of the 9th Age diehards. Heck, I think I was the one that sent the pdfs over to you back in the early days of 9th Age.
That said, a large contingent of the remaining 9th Age folks are moving to TOW (Chihammer for example). I have several friends who play 40k, loved Total War... and are now building their first fantasy armies.
I'm so curious to see where this all goes!
Thanks for the content man- perfect listening material as I am rebasing my night goblin army for my first TOW game next week.
I remember! You were one of the first people to ask me to give it a go!
I think Chris and I both have no doubt it’s going to find its place and is here to stay… I think it will fit comfortably in a niche for GW and can justify the continued keeping and insuring of old Molds and masters.
I liked that point re: the stock upkeep etc. Something that unless you've run a warehouse/had a business with stock rooms really goes by the wayside in convo.
If TOW stays around in the vein of LotR... that's enough for me. It doesn't need to be 40k levels of constant hype. Just enough to have a decent sized gaming group... and I'm more than happy.
For sure! And I think that’s where it’s going to sit. I think managing the idea that it’s going to eclipse anything else is probably where we came to in this conversation because to do that you need the buy-in of the real-space outlets that deal in the product.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGamesI imagine there is no expectation for this game to eclipse anything. I really think GW is simply finding another quadrant in the pie, an older, nostalgia driven demographic. Feed just enough product and support to keep clubs/home games going, and older buyers painting and starting projects, and the game will be a "success" for the balance sheet.
@@gathar58I agree. Make money of those prior investments and be present in that market.
Warhammer died because they doubled the prices of the boxes for both Fantasy and 40k. I only need one box of guys for a playable unit in 40k. I need 2 boxes for a playable unit in Fantasy. Thus effectively quadrupling the price for Fantasy players. I had a group of 12 guys who met regularly multiple armies always trying new stuff and customizing armies when the price went up we all just stopped buying and left the hobby. AOS is to High fantasy for us. Now we have more disposable incomes and are ready to buy Fantasy again. Fantasy was always a more fun game for me, especially with border princes. 40k had fun lore but was way too unbalanced.
I am glad GW's new OW rules decreases the model count bloat fantasy always had. I can run 2 ranks of cavalry and get a full set of rank bonuses. I only need 6 trolls to have my rank bonuses. In general the formations and unit types updates are great and were needed in 5th edition! but we instead got new armies with each edition of WH to sell product instead.
I'm doing a propper night goblin army for this edition. Lead dwarves going on movement trays. My already bought High Elves need to be built and painted on 25s, and I will buy a new army when the right box comes out.
I dont think its nostalgia to want to be part of a gaming community again.
My LGS has sold out of everything they can get on pre order and ordered from overseas to try and get enough rule books.
PS I am also at the stage where i would happily pay an LGS or person to build and undercoat my army to save time, spending money isnt as difficult as it was in the early 2000's.
I hope your community comes back strong!
I've more or less been out of the hobby for years... I've played a couple games of AoS, a few more of 40k, and that's been it.... This ToW launch has me recollecting a dwarf army to paint, and actually kind of motivated to paint.
But I would have to admit Warhammer Fantasy was my go to game.... So I might be a biased anecdote.
I was semi-interested in the Old world, but looking at how expensive the models are, especially the metals (AUD$100 for 3 Grail knights), I'm unfortunately going to skip this.
I feel like Fantasy died due to the high cost of entry, but this feels like the same mistake all over again. My opinion is that they should have made all new models for the factions (expensive, I know) and used their 'made to order' waves to inject nostalgic old models into the ecosystem, as being 'forced' to buy ancient sculpts for new model prices (Warhammer prices at least) is insane.
My local scene saw a massive decrease in interest when the pre-orders went live, and people saw the prices. The only people who are still interested in playing are those with armies they purchased back when Fantasy was still around, or people using fully proxied armies via 3d prints, kings of war models, or alternative company models.
As a gamer I don't want to stand in circles. I want to fight the enemy and rout them off my table. I hope the old world does well, but I see those difficulties for game stores.
I’ve played every edition of WHFB. I quit about a year before the end times. I don’t think I’ll be going back. It’s always been a game of hero hammer and Death Star units. I suspect the new edition will merely be more of the same. Sorry to be negative but that’s just how I feel about the game.
Have to disagree with both of you here.
You are both coming at it from the old hand perspective.
I was a broke kid when WHFB was out. Was devastated when I missed it. I have picked up 3 of the now sold out Bretonnia starter boxes. The Green Knight, Morgana Le Fay, Bretonnian Trebuchets, got to get em all.
You have folks like me, and all those who joined as GW finally reprinted the novels in Warhammer Chronicles, put stuff out on Kindle, new wave of WFRPG, plus Total War.
The Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are sold out. The main rulebook is sold out. The Bretonnia army box is sold out. There is a passion here.
Just worried GW will miss the mark, as TKs have some dog ugly old sculpts, but they are priced even higher, and correspondingly their box isnt moving as much.
I have Mantic Orc and Dwarf armies. I can look at a KoW Orc Mega Army, then look at the planned Orcs and Goblins Battalion box, and oh boy does the KoW army box come away the winner.
Oh we’re not disagreeing with anything you’re saying here. But available to buy isn’t the same as it being back.
Put yourself in Chris’ shoes. The same company that makes this game makes eight other games. Every month he keeps his shop going by having customers get excited, buy build and paint armies.
In between, some of those games he can get product to keep selling. Some he can’t.
If it only shows up for short periods, he has to make space for the stuff that’s always there. People can’t ’casually encounter’ Warhammer right now, even right after launch. And I truly think you’re exactly who those boxes were for, like Chris said.
But just like GW, Chris can’t make a living off the people driving most of the attention right now, a lot of whom only need to buy a couple books and can go right to playing. So the question we’re asking is; what does that mean for YOU who’s excited and getting to play their first games of Warhammer?
Yeah, passion is a big factor. Probably the most important factor.
Pretty sure TOW is gonna be a huge success.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I don't know what a good solution is for store owners. Maybe warehouse space, and having placeholders on the shelf, or Catalogs (so it is less space intensive)? Customer wants something, you cash them out, it is available for pickup the next day or delivered? Dual sales out of store and online?
Membership dues to help with expenses, pay for play space? (Run it like a gym, newbies or +1 for free)
GW is spinning a lot of plates right now, and asking everyone to do the same. Everyone isn't going to agree which plates should hit the floor. The smaller lines that aren't really their own thing, like Warcry, Underworlds, Kill Team, and even LoTR could go away in my opinion. But I am very cognizant of the fact my opinion is not the consensus.
I think there is space for WHFB/Old World. Thank you for the video, and the reply!
Alienating half the players by reducing their armies to legends isn’t a good way to get them to engage with the game.
In the old days it took a year to build a 40k army and longer to build a fantasy army. You need to know the game will be around when you have built your army.
Very much a situation GW has fostered with their games and community - pumping out product to support and ever growing bottom line. I don't play any mainline GW products anymore - the rules are terrible, it's full of book releases bloating the games, the minis get spammed out etc. Its dull.
I can keep these models, ignore what they do and not chase meta with this game.
I'd been collecting and painting Orcs & Goblins kind on the back burner for about 8 months prior to the old world release.
I didn't get into the hobby when WFB was a thing, although I wanted to when I was younger, AoS never piqued my interest so I'm coming in with no existing army.
O&G wasn't the hardest to get an army going in currently available plastics, but it's somewhat limited, basically just Night Goblins. I'm burnt out on 40K's competitive focus, constantly moving meta and ever adjusting rules, so being able to slowly collect, paint and assemblemam army has been nice, and this is the most productive I've been in a while.
Interesting perspective that GW may severly hobble/hamper the Old World release by their own supply and availability issues. I also think the response to this game really surprised and overwhelmed them.
Steamforged Games just released a video basically saying "we screwed up shelving Guildball, we're sorry, and we're going to update rules for our fans." The Old World kinda feels like the same thing from GW. A fairly minimal investment, some updated rules, and an opportunity to maybe extend an olive branch to some old salty customers.
That's cool. The Guildball mini range is very characterful, and, I guess, it is a shame it wasn't more popular with players.
More care has been put into the Old Wold rules than 40K or AOS the team behind TOW are amazing
@@highmarshalbalian680 These rules do seem excellent.
Is anybody going to trust Steamforged at this point? "You guys ruined our game so it's dead" is a hell of a way to treat your customers.
@@crann777 the TL;DR is that they didn't mean for it to come off that way. I'd recommend watching the video and deciding for your self. I too was quite pissed off at them, but I'm willing to hear them out and see if they mean it. Considering I still own like 10 guilds, it's not like it will cost me any more money to see if they're serious about making up for their failings.
I’d love it to be a slow burn game with not allot of updates that’s not insanely popular.
The hardest thing I find building an army in aos and 40K is how rapidly they update and change anything.
I want to grab a codex. Plan my 2k list and then build and paint everything. Currently everything has changed by the time I’m on my 2nd model and I have to change everything or scrap the project.
Myself and three others who have never collected a full Warhammer army for 40k, HH or AOS are getting into the hobby properly because of the old world. For us the setting is the attraction, we love the historical influence.
Super excited for Warhammer The Old World !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for thsi podcast. Listening to you i feel like ToW is gonna be a commercial failure or mheeee but to the interested customers it's gonna be like "Warhammer, the definitive edition". And that sounds great to me if that mean you don't have to buy a new book every six months. 😊
I do not understand how you could burn out on Warhammer. I've also been doing this for decades but never did I have the feeling of being done with it. I have at least half a dozen ideas for a new army each year. And I'm not fast enough to do six armies per year. So it's an infinite source for me.
Especially since there are so many unexplored regions in the world. Arabia is still on my list. Albion. Fimir. Kingdoms of Ind.
I also do not understand any fascination for AoS.
Which is not meant as a slight. Just a fact. I don't get it. Does nothing for me. And I think I'm not alone with this.
I think the difference is it’s what you started with. I think for anyone that on ramps into a hobby, THEIR Warhammer will always be the one that’s there when they discover it, which is fine!
Also, burnout happens in every hobby, it doesn’t mean you don’t love something just that in its current state you’ve kind of explored or done anything you wanted to.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames yeah, but now that I've listened to you talk about it some more, I'd say your "mistake" (obviously not a mistake) was to focus on the rules aspect. The list building. You say in the video that this is what keeps people coming back. But I don't build lists. I just think of ideas that interest me. Which units do I like thematically, which units inspire me to do crazy conversions? And if I have an idea for something truly unique I'll try to find a unit that has rules that most closely match my idea.
But I never look at it from the perspective of building a competitive list.
I'm building my army with themes and ideas that inspire me, whether that's an effective list... I don't give a crap. :D
And I'm just trying to say that if you start your armies not from that list building point but by asking which themes you want to explore you'll never run out of inspiration. Because the rules construct has boundaries. There's a finite number of possible combinations. But there's no limit to your imagination.
@@barbarusbloodshed6347 I mean we didn’t apply that to everybody, just had a shared moment where we were excited about the nostalgia of old game design. This definitely isn’t a conversation of absolutes!
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames there definitely are no absolutes with this hobby... or there's only that one absolute that there are no absolutes :D
It has too many aspects and different people will like different things. Some people collect and paint the minis and that's all they do. Others will never paint a single mini and all they want is to play the games.
Everyone just has to find their like-minded crowd and then it's all good.
Really looking forward to seeing you play some games of Old World, Ash. Always like your game content.
I know it’s hard for local game stores, one of my closest friends runs @mightylancergames here in Bridlington UK and has grief with getting stock sometimes. All the best to your friend Chris’s store.
I never had interrest for fantasy battle. I had a few 40k models in the early 2000's. The codex pictures were making me dream to play games with such models and tables. But too expenside, too much effort in painting and too much time to prep.
In 2017 i jumped the gun and started to collect and paint 40k with real intent.
Few years later, i have a few 40k armies all painted at an intermediary level.
What i like about the old world is it looks and plays different. AOS is 40k with a few differences, i don't want that. So i bought 2000 points of tomb kings and thanks to modern painting techniques and gear, i am 100% certain i can make the oldest crusty skeleton looks dope.
Regarding how popular the launch went, i got my starter box because i preordered within 5 minutes on a small shop, but the rest is on order.
Maybe it was not as successful in NA because of pricing, but in mainland europe, my 2k TK cost me 350€ VAT included.
I also think that new methods of painting (contrast) and gear (air brush) + tutorials and inspiration on the internet made the hobby more accessible. I think it had the potential to become more popular than 30k.
I’ve said to a few people that it feels like The Old World is the new LoTR. Few new models are mostly kept going by diehards. And it feels like a shame since the game looks like a passion project from those still at GW.
I'm in it purely for nostalgia, it's so weird that this feels like putting on an old pair of comfortable slippers more so than any other release by GW for me. I am not a fan of AoS but I think WFB did need a break from the cycle, my only concern currently is that it's going to be hard to get hold of stuff once the release weekends have passed. I think right now their stock levels are hurting any growing game systems and this could be a great game released at the wrong time.
I think there’s a few factors that might make this re-release different and help it take off:
- a lot of the people who were into it as kids and left the hobby in their late teens/early twenties are now back due to 40K 8th Ed and have a lot more disposable income
- paints and painting techniques have come on a long way from when fantasy was in its prime so it’s so much easier to get an army together.
- AoS and 40K have evolved into these competitive simplified rule-sets and OW offers an escape from that for people who prefer crunchy or narrative-driven games.
- people like me who love the AoS models but hate the AoS lore can now buy the cool army of their dreams using gorgeous new dynamic plastic models but for the game they love.
I would also expect the reason sales of models were low is that not everyone wanted TK or Brets people are waiting for or are already buying the faction they prefer. For example I’ve picked up a load of seraphon, slaves to darkness and gloomspite for OW and I’m waiting for Empire to be released.
GW has awoken a sleeping giant. Everyone in my game group that wanted TKs and Bretonnians already have 1500 points almost painted. Contrast paints are made for this.
Honestly, not worrying about command points and aos meta trash armies was such a breath of fresh air.
I think if workshop puts time into it it will grow.
I am into AoS / Warcry and Battletech myself. Old World is mostly interesting for me from a perspective of a viewer. I just wanna see what people do with it but I have no urge or desire to buy into it myself.
See that’s so interesting because I think there’s SO many folks in your position that are really driving the marketing and algorithmic success of ToW (which is an industry and makes people money in and of itself).
😃👍 I've watched loads of games over the past decade; and yet haven't rolled a die in anger.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I honestly can't tell if just the industry surrounding talking about TOW and people wanting it to do well is bigger than the actual game itself? idk
I made the entirety of my 2,000 point Dark Elves army using old 6th edition minis.
I took Old World as a chance to build the dream Dark Elves army I always wanted as a kid growing up, but couldn't afford since I already had a hodgepodge of poorly assembled and poorly partially painted High Elves, plus my main gaming opponents played Dark Elves.
I feel bad not giving my FLGS much money in the way of Old World, but like you said I took this as "revisiting an old friend" with how I am approaching it.
I think another huge reason the models aren't flying off the selves is because of GW's outrageous prices. $120 for a unit of 6 grail knights? That's a joke. . .
Myself and many people simply 3d print their armies now. For the price of 12 Grail Knights, you can buy a printer, resin, and print at least 2k points of miniatures that look just as good if not better.
So why wouldn't you just 3d print? Once you have a printer, trying a whole new army is only an investment of $20.
I should also add that the two armies released are the least popular armies, (no hate though, they've actually always been my favorites. especially Bretonnia
Honest question, why is everyone so excited for this? All GW have done is repackage old... OLD sprues with yet another price bump, and they basically killed some of the most popular armies. Seriousky, old world without Vampire Counts or Skaven? But Tomb Kings are there?
And then you have to revase all your old stuff too...
Nothing about this release makes any sense, but I see a LOT of enthusiasm online. I don't get it. I really don't. I'd rather just play 8th ed. instead if anything, but preferably just any other ruleset.
Please enlighten me.
I’m going to hold fire for 1 year. if my local club is going well, i will 3d print an army (the 2nd hand market for WHFB models has jumped in price dramatically), and play. I played 4th through 8th but not much, 40K was my thing, WHFB always felt to me like a skirmish game with odd movement and you each had 6-8 large models (ironically what the very old game leviathan was), ASOIAF feels the same.
Its been weirdly received here, some are keen but some of the old grognards wont touch it, and I saw games of 6th ed and 9th age at my club recently and none of TOW.
Great video! As a prospective Old World Player, the idea of buying off market movement trays for my round based figures that will work for Old World is keeping me interested. Do you think that will be a factor? I’m all about crossover with AOS and Warcry. Still, anything that makes my FLGS cash register go ding is worth it.
Look forward to playing Old World, whenever I can get a copy of the rulebook. Don't know why I'm still surprised with how bad GW are with product launches and stock selling out (here in Ireland/EU).
Never had a hobby shop where I live, but in my nearest city here in Norway. Im in my 30s and got first interested in D&D, Battletech and Dragonbane just months a few years ago😂 Not interested in WH/40k products only lore. Can say its been DIFFICULT to get my hands on Battletech products, tabletop and video games. Bit easier no thanks to the hard work of Catalyst
Who wants to start another GW game? 40K is a huge sink of hundreds of dollars over time. AOS similar in expense and size of model count and expense. Now, old world is "New" and the kits are from the Old World at new world prices? Final thought, will it be supported for very long? I mean this will make 2 large format Fantasy games in their lineup, oops, almost forgot Middle earth....
"The only people who play it so far are using old armies" ... yeah no kidding, what else are they supposed to be doing? Paint 2000 points in a week? We can not all be Ash! ;)
My biggest worry for now is the general unavailability of most of the "core factions". GW made pretty clear those "legacy factions" will see no support after their PDF lists - yet those are the armies most easy to purchase right now. Beastmen and Warriors are the ones with (almost) full ranges for TOW right now. The rest come either mostly in universally sold out big boxes, or are just not for sale yet.
I really want to see TOW succeeding, but GW seems to make it needlessly complicated for themselves...
I WOULD like to play a game of TOW, but since GW hasn't seen fit to send ANYTHING to my local independent retailer yet, from whom I ordered all of the books, "Release Day" was something of a misnomer.
People aren't buying any old world models , because there really aren't any old world models to buy!!! . All the stuff sold out very rapidly, and if you didn't want to play either bretonia or Tomb kings , you have to wait for months . But I bet , certain kits from the AOS range has sold VERY well these last couple of weeks
I finished whf early in 6th and had no interest in it even when it died. I was busy with 40k and others. I didn't really look into old world as they developed it. But Just as it comes out I looked it over and found a game that's REALLY had thought put into it. I found myself liking what I saw. I pulled out my chaos warriors and looked over them to see what bits im missing or what half finished project needs finishing. The army lists read.....right. its the only way I can describe it. An almost perfect balance of ease and crunch that is missing in more modern games. It just felt good. Had my first test game last weekend and again the game felt right. IDK whatever they have done this almost feels like the definitive WHF! You said it yourself "the greatest hits" rolled into one system. If i didnt have my old stuff i must admit Im not sure Id be in on it. But Its been a while since Ive been this excited for a game. Titanicus perhaps? Like others im more than happy it being a slow burn game. The backbone type system that's always solid and just there for you. Ive always said im 40k over fantasy but this has brought me back towards the dividing line in a big way. Very interesting chat to listen to and I agree with what you guys said.
I'm probably the most gung-ho about The Old World in my local area, and yeah, I've got old armies. I've spent a lot of money on the old world, but most of that has been 3rd party 3d printed bases ordered from an online vender, which doesn't put money in GW's pocket nor does it support the local gaming store. I did spend a lot on rulebooks, so GW got some money for me, but I got the ebooks because I didn't trust GW's distribution to actually get physical books out on time to everyone who preordered them, so that didn't fund local stores either. I have bought some new models - tomb guard, snake riders, the new models, the now-in-metal ushabti with bows. Ordered those through the local warhammer store, so that supported A local store, but I didn't get those from the local indie shop because I wasn't confident their order would actually some in. I didn't even get the big box with the new dragon because the entire rest of that us$300 box was old skeletons which are models I don't want. Not even because I have them, I disliked those old skeletons so much even back in the day that my old tomb kings army exclusively used the old 7th edition vampire count skeletons.
I haven't played any games in the store, because I've been rebasing for the last few weeks, and while there are other players interested in the game many are also still rebasing, or trying to figure out what/where to get actual models for an army. I love the rules for The Old World. looking through it, it might be my favorite edition of Warhammer Fantasy. I want it to be successful as a game. But I'm not sure I see how this game survives after the initial launch buzz dies down. I expect it will look a lot like the middle earth strategy battle game - a game that exists, with rules players who already have collections can access and use, but with no new players because buying in from scratch is near impossible - the models are ancient and often out of stock if they're available at all. A game with some products that can be ordered, but that occupies zero space on local store shelves and gets no promortion or direct support from store managers.
I turned both my FB armies (tomb kings/lizardmen) into Kings of War armies some years back. They are magnetized on trays and could be used for both, but i think i prefer KoW for it's sleeker ruleset. I might get another sphinx but other than that i don't really need any more minis
As someone w no connection to wfb, seeing this, then the old models, and hearing about giant, complicated rulebooks, I don't see any on ramp or interest. I will try something w a modern ruleset and available models which finishes in 2.5 hrs or less like Conquest or Asoiaf.
From the battle reports I've seen, the biggest problem TOW will have is that it's kinda boring. The magic of magic has been almost completely lost, and once units get into battle it's just a long and drawn-out grind-fest. 8th wasn't the greatest ruleset, but at least it was fun.
I’ve started a slow grow league at my flgs. Got 8 peeps so far! Lots of excitement and enthusiasm. Now if only GW could have the same excitement! 😂
You really nailed it on the list building. In my 15 years in the hobby list building is still a majority of my time although modern 40k feels very plug and play now
Fantastic episode. Loved the real honest talk. Personally, I'm gonna go all in on beastmen when they come prob at least 2 army boxes of them if possible, but I'm gonna take it at my own pace.
I think it was a mistake on GW's part of not having conversion movement trays that fir AoS round bases. There will never be enough old stock of rank & file minis for ToW armies and not having sales of existing plastic lines usable is jus ta waste honestly.
It doesnt bother me any, since ill just be 3d printing. If TOW does well, great. If not, i play Warhammer Army Project
The fact that the release will be sparse and far in between, like MESBG is perfect for me.
That way I have time to build my army before a new edition rolls over.
It definitely takes the pressure off.
Now and even back then whfb feels like it doesnt promote continuous sales. You reach a point where you dont need more models and youre just playing unless you choose to do a fresh army. Doesnt matter how good the game is. Actually you could argue that the better the game is the less someone who already has an army will purchase. I think it will be like mesbg.
All the old models that I had that lost their place in the transfer to AOS will be used for Old World or other game systems. But I feel that the releases for it are more dipping into consequential nostalgia rather than pulling new players. Thats just my perception though.
I feel like I’m the generic old world launch day customer; I preordered everything on the GW-site because my LFGS seemed unsure of what they would get and didn’t give me the impression that they believed in the game, and I wanted to make sure I got everything I wanted. I ended up spending less than half of what I had planned because everything sold out before I got in front of the queue. I didn’t buy any Old World models because I don’t play or plan to play Brets or TK - instead I bought two AoS Vanguard Beasts of Chaos-boxes and an AoS Beastlord because I want to play Beastmen in Old World (I don’t play AoS). Now I’m just waiting for GW to release a bunch of Beastmen - and I will buy everything (twice or thrice if it’s new models). 🐐🐐🐐
I was in a wait and see what happens. The old World is entering a market that other games filled their WHF shoes. King of War, Game of throne, 9th age and conquest to name a few.
My buddies and I own every Fantasy army between us, and have been playing for years. We're already starting two new armies, and a third if you include another friend who joined the hobby after the death of Fantasy and is excited to finally play.
We might be small fish compared to the relentless churn of 40k, but I think the game will be a success. I've got a game in a couple weeks with old friends I would never have imagined playing tabletop games with again. They're even buying rulebooks and miniatures!
Chris also doesn't discount at all, which hurts when you're dropping like $400+ at once. Might be a reason he had less interest. 401 and other places blew through their big allocations of starter boxes and rulebooks.
At my lgs, there are a few guys that buy every Games Workshop release. Beyond that it's been quiet. We are big into conquest so maybe that has taken all the interest in that kind of game
I really want to get involved but I’d want to do Orcs and Goblins and have to wait, same as a lot of other pals waiting for their old armies to get updates and rereleases! Very strange release.
I wanted to get into tabletop wargaming summer 2015, but unbeknowst to me Old World blew up :D
I couldn't get through no points in AoS, so I started dabbling in 40k. Soon after AoS got points I started getting into it. Now I don't play 40k, only AoS and some small games.
Arrival of the Old World is not a huge deal for me. I like rank & file idea, but I don't want to: a) paint old minis b) use AoS models for Old World c) use 3d prints too much
I might give it a go at some point if it doesn't get squatted.
It’s really interesting to hear that you’re firmly in that eight year period where it was fresh in minds but other things were the offer. I’m interested in hearing where you end up when we check in on this again over the summer!
Comment of the algorithm gods. Keep up the great work. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🤩👏🏾👏🏾
That’s so funny. The resentment of how the original fantasy was wrecked will NEVER go away. I still feel my anger keenly as well even though it’s a new GW and it’s been so long.
It’s weird.
I think it’s a completely natural emotional reaction to having invested a ton of time and effort into something and feel like it isn’t valued anymore! I don’t begrudge anyone their feelings. When you love something and it feels like it doesn’t love you back that really hurts.
I enjoyed the comment about blood and money. I have no access to 3D Printing and I am not spending time and money (lots of money?) on old sculpts. I will be watching…
I’m really interested in knowing how many folks are in your position. :)
I've been watching a lot of Lords of War videos, so this was a pleasant surprise. The Toronto toy soldier family is tight knit! I have no interest in Old World, but the discourse around it is fascinating.
Liked the talk and the great records in the background.
Jeez, i absolutely wanna see you and Jay playing old world with your hilarious Nostalgie Nerdiness!
I think people went more to GW stores than flgs because the reliability (an issue created by GW) of flgs has been diminished due to not getting a reliable stock on launch.
The perception of that and often reality is definitely going to affect that for sure!
Fantasy players dont play in GW stores, my local GW store isnt even stocking it.
Could be hugely successful but GW isn’t committing to that.
Old time Warhammer fan, but nowadays mostly into Narrative+Skirmish, Solo/Co-Op games. I just don't jive with big army games anymore. Still following the Old World with interest. Might snatch up some of the new Resin models in the long run. Also interested to see if/when Cathay comes out. My first homebrew, a long time ago, was a Cathay armylist, I would love to see GW's take on it, and especially their miniatures.
I'm really excited for The Old World. WHFB is what got me into GW products, and I was super bitter when it was nuked for a game (AOS) I thought was terrible. I dig AOS now, but its taken me until 3rd edition to play and enjoy. That being said, I probably wont play AOS or 40K for a long time, bc what I love is back. I have two massive armies and I cannot wait to field them again.
I miss the Eaton's Centre community and days where we just showed up and played random folks, who eventually became great friends. I still don't get that same feeling with AOS or 40K. WHFB was special to me and a lot of players. Glad is here once again! Will it bring back those moments I once had, who knows, but I'm excited to find out.
As always, great video, Ash. Your love and passion for wargames is so inspiring. Cheers!
Thanks Claudio! Let me be clear about something, the Toronto Eaton’s Center store was very special. I worked and visited hundreds of stores in my time at GW and frankly, it never had an equal. We were very lucky to have that experience. It was the most bohemian GW life a person in their 20s could live. :)
Once I get my High Elves into shape we should have a game. If it were a GW location I suppose the Lawrence one is as good as any.
@GuerrillaMiniatureGames it really was, and I'm glad to have experienced it! I have very fond memories hanging out, painting, and gaming there. It felt like a true Warhammer community. Heck, I just played TOW today with my best friend I met at that GW. Thanks for all you do, dude!
@michaelfurlanic3505 you betcha, I'd love that! Haven't visited that GW location since before WHFB was nuked. It'd be like a blast to the past! Last time I was in a GW was 2016 in Florence, Italy. Crazy.
Old World is my game. In Spain we still play a lot of 6th Edition. Now there is a bunch of tournaments going on for TOW.
Thanks for the video, I enjoyed a lot. Take care!
I’m a fan of your channel, and I will always remember you as my first 40K channel I subscribed to, and the first batt rep I ever watched. Your content is always interesting and gets me thinking about things in a different way. I gotta say on this one…. I’m 50, and I have never played warhammer fantasy battles. I played tons of warhammer quest when it came out, and before and after that it was the fantasy roleplay game. So I am massively excited about the game. I just bought a complete(ish) dwarf army. I’m in Seattle and there are a ton of people who have never played genuinely excited to dive in. I am an old grognard in spirit. In some ways I do get what you guys are saying. But there is a whole generation of new players out there begging to be engaged.
I think this is a great opportunity for your channel to lead them down a good path. You have a way with words and obviously people listen to you (like me).
Just wanted to encourage you to tap into that memory of how cool and exciting this game can be.
I bought the rule book. And then dug my old minis out of storage.
I like the idea of mini-agnostic games. So I'll collect from any brand. Games workshop just happens to make many of the coolest looking minis
The old world is such a childhood dream of mine. Back in the day, I used to be so into it and tried to get an army and play myself, but didn't have the money. In my teens I lost interest and when I found my interest in the hobby again a few years back, fantasy was dead. AoS was never a substitute, so I'm super hyped and hopeful now, that the old world is gonna become a thing. Even tho my favourite armies, dark elves and vampire counts, didn't make the cut.
Love Chris and Lords of War! I've really been enjoying their chat videos 12/10 :) This interview was waaaayyyy too short - would love to see Chris and Jay on more. Looking forward to part 2!
EDIT: Jay Z
Lots more to come. I feel like doing these short form and on topic videos is actually way better for us as we don’t dither down rabbit holes as much and the overall discussion is better! Next week is the one on 40k
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames ya'll know we're a bunch of rabbit gremlins ;) Sidetrack away!
18:03 : I hope people won't assume The Old World doesn't work because people play with their old armies... OF COURSE they play with their old armies, people like me who are picking up the game now litterally cannot buy their models. They are either out of stock or just do not exist at all. For instance I cannot play the game right now, because I don't have enough core models for my Errantry Crusade full cavalry army, and that's from someone who's playing one of the only two factions which have been released.
I love the Warhammer fantasy setting, I'm aiming at building Bretonnia and Wood Elves armies (since Vampire Counts won't be released). I understand that models with come with time. I just wish Games Workshop would provide more information about what we can expect in the future. Will they ever release a box of Bretonnian Knights for the core of my army, or am I doomed from the start to buy stuff from second hand from people who bought the "core set", even if I litterally just want to throw my money at Games Workshop ? Will they ever release some Duke on Hippogryph or should I give up and just use a Royal Pegasus ?
The opacity on the release strategy is saddening me, because I want to play, I want to play with new minis. I just cannot. And I have to wait, not knowing if the day will come.
Edit : I know that you can always buy alternate miniatures which do not originate from Games Workshop, but I want to support GW and The Old World, I want a full coherency on my models, and I do not want to kit-bash for these armies I will build as I am entering the hobby. I also don't want to buy old armies on Ebay, I want to build everything with my hands from GW models.
I think your experience is going to be pretty common!
Im in the other camp... where my two armies , tomb kings and bretonnia, were squatted in AOS. So I sold them off. I have rebought both😅 I'm super excited to build armies again, this time with my kids. Admittedly, I have also been subscribing to half of those 50 bajillion 3d print patreons too, for playing WAP and the 9th age
Interesting! Has there been an uptick in those producing more tailored product for ToW?
@GuerrillaMiniatureGames hard to say, honestly. Most of the patreons i've subscribed to were always making square based content, filling a niche I suppose. (Or cyberpunk) I would certainly say, though, that some armies are far more represented than others. Everyone and their brother did chaos dwarves, which I dont care for, but few did regular dwarves. Highlands miniatures have been my favorite so far.
@@ArchangelMiniatureGaming apart from Lost Kingdom, who else have you seen that have done Chaos Dwarfs please?
@@BBTactics hard to remember as i'd unsubbed for those months due to lack of interest, but I know lost kingdom, and empire miniatures did them, and I think titan forge? Hope that helps!
Odd, all the bigger lgs’s I use in the uk were out of models within 10 minutes, save for the Pegesus knights, and the website queue was over 2 hours.
I immediately bought the Tomb King Box + Setra + tomb Guard - as i always wanted them but faffed about then the old world got nuked... and even if TOW was rubbish would have been very happy.... but after watching the mountain guys play... im very keen to get my teeth into it.... just waiting for a game from GMG... come on DO IT... DOOOOO IIIT.
and yes i have already been "noodling" a Vamps list (recreating a Vlad / isabella vamp)... A Skaven list (warplocks ftw)... a Setra List... A Slanneesh list (now available in all the stuff) and a HE list (lumie models)... and your sooo right... i have insanely enjoyed the tinkering... getting that 2k on the dot with a shield or item... running pure themed lists, making some death stars and silly shit i think wont work but will be damn fun... good times. And if the bring out V. Coast or Cathy or Keislev, i and my wallet are gunna be wrecked.
You asked the very legitimate question: what do the customers want and expect from the independent store owner? GW isn't supporting much more than a rerelease of the rules and a few new models. I would prefer the stores focus on events and terrain if they have the customers for it. Let's see how that goes. People pay $100 to run 26 miles getting little more than event coordination from the race sponsors. I feel like events could fund Old World especially with some creativity. My greatest store experiences was playing Warhammer at Arizona Gamer on their unique gaming tables with custom terrain.
I have recently watched the interviews of Rick Priestly and John Blanche, and it was the independent stores that made Warhammer Fantasy and 40K flourish. That truth probably hasn't changed.
None of my local hobby shops are ordering Old World product except the GW store which has the army boxes and rule books, but which does not carry the new OW bases supposedly required to play the game officially. They are not facilitating the old player base. Store owners have every right to be concerned about the risks of investing in a game GW has hardly invested in themselves even at the local store level. I also didn't see a painting station in the GW store which is massively disappointing to me. I want to sit paint and talk at my hobby store throughout the week. I have moved several times and I need to make friends!
Personally, I just invested $80 in the Avatars of War kickstarter models for 32 plastic Orc Warriors. I am hungry for modern good looking models, and I see ranges like Avatar having cornered the Old World market while GW was producing models that aren't compatible with our game. I got into Citadel Miniatures because they were the coolest. That's not as true today as it was in the 90s.
Example of what a customer might consider: I could buy AoS 'Ard Boys to represent my Black Orcs, but they are very pricey ($6/model) and they don't contain great weapons and dual wielding weapon options any longer, but instead contain spears that Black Orcs cannot even use. I expect the original 'Ard Boys to come back in plastic just like they did with the original Iron Jaws starter box, but I think we can all agree that GW does a poor job supporting the rules they wrote for their games with the correct WYSIWYG equipment on the models they stock in the stores. Nobody wants to invest $100+ to then turn to GW's bits order (oh wait, they don't support that any more either) and feel bad. Spending should feel good. When done right, it's an intrinsic part of the experience!
I am a big fan of going with square trays with round bases. I would really like to see GW pivot and support this officially. If I was a local store I would be carrying these and selling them at a reasonable markup. Personally I am running 25mm circular, 30mm circular and 40mm circular bases for my infantry, heavy infantry and monstrous infantry (some exceptions in there for dwarf heavy infantry but you get the idea). GW missed an opportunity to have AOS base sizes match OW. I am willing to rebase to 32mm for heavy infantry if it's official.
I really appreciate your comment that you are taking your time with your personal Old World experience and that it is such an "investment in gold and blood". I will be repeating that to my friends who show interest. I have heard people discuss Warhammer as a culture, and approached that way it's pretty great. To be perfectly frank, I worked a GW store, I try to buy models locally, and I have never seen game stores as a lucrative business. Therefor, ALL THE MORE, I appreciate the effort and passion gentlemen such as yourselves put into your store! It really is a labor of love and friendship! Thank you! I hope your customers respect and appreciate you!
Also sorry for running long in the tooth!
Don’t be sorry! This was a great explanation of your experience and I really appreciate it! I hope you come back for our follow up to this and let us know how it’s gone!
I've been into warhammer since 6th and always wanted to make a bretonian army but never got the chance so once i get some money i will be, but to start with i just got the forces book and will get my high elves done.
Also i love list building it's a huge part of my hobby which is one of the reasons i couldn't get into first edition aos, other than the death of the old world trauma.
It’s been 6 months let’s see the post mortem !
Great episode - I can't wait to visit Chris's store some day!
I'm happy for all the people who are excited for Old World but for me the announcement that all the armies I might be interested in will not receive any support other than an initial rules dump that won't be updated pretty much kill it for me. The lack of new sculpts for the majority of units that they are supporting was just a final nail. I have no interest in (re)collecting models from the 90's and early 00's.
Edit to expand: For me at least, while I love the Old World setting (and never warmed to the Sigmar setting), the models are vastly more important to me than the rules. If I can't get cool minis that aren't 20+ years old I'm just not going to care about the game.
Interesting. Would you buy any of those other armies if their models were rereleased instead? Or would you want them to produce all new miniatures?
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I would absolutely buy some of the models they are not going to be revisiting but I would need more than one or two new miniatures for those armies to generate any sustained excitement. Edit to clarify: I would buy re-released models for those armies if they filled a gap in my force or were a sculpt I still think holds up well but would need new models as well to keep at it.
that was great to listen to but super depressive
Don't underestimate the impact of warhammer total war, i think the hobby has the potential to grow massively due to the exposure to new collectors coming in from the 3 warhammer games
The brand absolutely has. I’ll be really curious how many make it through the process of collecting and painting an army though because the time and attention ask of Warhammer is a lot higher than a game install before you get to do the playing part.
I am going to take the under on this. Total War may get more name recognition, and there will be some interest on the margin, but I don’t think they’re going to be ton of PC gamers rushing to buy plastic.
I would agree with you there to a degree, and GW definitely used TTW as a marketing tool to stoke hype for the Old World, HOWEVER I think that was actually a mistake.
Old World is not at all a game aimed at people who enjoyed TTW. It's not a continuation of the bombastic, high-fantasy, monster heavy version of Fantasy that TTW was very much inspired by. Instead Old World seems to aim at a much older audience, like they said in the video, it's mostly aiming at people who already had armies. I think it is much closer to the historic part of the miniature hobby, than any other game of GW before.
You can already see the backlash currently with people making up conspiracy videos and lose themselves, trying to justify why GW excluded certain armies and how it was all AoS' fault and how the AoS team is trying to handycap Old World, ect. When in reality, Old World pretty clearly aims at a much more niche and focused group.
@@shinankoku2Blood Bowl saw a definite bump in TT player numbers from the PC games - i think at least a 3rd of our current league were converts from the PC games - i think there will be a decent transfer across...
If anything, over the years Total War and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay have solidified the idea that I don't need to, or want to, go through the blood and gold phase of tabletop again with Old World. Those products and formats completely scratch the itch for me. I'm heavily invested in AoS and Adeptus Titanicus, and honestly just don't have the time, money, or shelf space for ToW. I'm glad it exists though, and sincerely hope that other old guard in my age bracket / demo who chose to be Big Mad can finally find a little peace.
My store didn’t seem to care much about it, didn’t really invest any time into it, and didn’t try to schedule or set up any game events.
The players have set up a Discord for the state, and the players have scheduling meet ups, the players are actually getting games at the game stores.
I’ve been frustrated as a player. I don’t have morbid curiosity, I’m all in and want this to be successful. Clearly more than a store owner.
I feel your frustration. I guess my council would be that there’s going to be a lot of mixed feeling in retailers. If they’ve been around a while, they may have found themselves with dead stock eight years ago. Or being the front face of settling arguments about whether or not they’d sell AoS. It’s a complex issue and I can’t fault anyone wanting to ‘wait and see’ if they’ve got a complicated history with a product line.
This was really insightful!