I did a breakdown of percentage loss. The 6.5 had a 10.3% energy loss and 5.3% velocity loss. The 5.56 had a 10.7% energy loss and a 5.6% velocity loss. The 7.62x39 had a 21.4% energy loss and a 11.3% velocity loss.
@@alexjones2924I hand load Grendel, out of my 20" gas gun I'm getting about 2470fps. This is the same projectile as depicted in the video. You may ask, being a hand loader, why did I stop at 2470? With this load I've matched Hornady's 123 Black ELD-M load in my rig and I get fantastic groups. From what I understand, these results are pretty spot on. I guess you could call me a Grendel fanboy but I do admit its short comings.
If you keep making these simple straightforward videos about 6.5 Grendel, your channel is gonna grow fast. There’s very little info on 6.5 Grendel with any shooting. Lots of Ron sooner talking or who tee who loving the cartridge but if you keep making these visual videos about it they’ll be a standard in years to come
Great video Sir. I use the 6.5 Grendel for work (Wildlife Management). It’s my “one gun solution” (Diamondback Firearms 18”, shoots sub-MOA) The Hornady 123 grain SST is my primary ammo choice. It has worked on everything from armadillo to beavers to coyotes to pigs to bears. For coyotes, I’ve found that unless you take a high shoulder shot, the SST will simply pass through without expansion, resulting is run away dogs. Defender Ammo in NC loads a 105 Sierra Blitzking that is perfect for coyotes and smaller game. It also seems that the Grendel has a less offensive sound signature than the 223 / 556.
If you ever get a chance to get ahold of them, the 120gr Speer gold dots are spectacular in Grendel. It’s what I load for my wife to hunt with. Full pass throughs and excellent expansion every time. I took a Doe with a neck shot using sst and didn’t get an exit lol. I have a short showing it. I like sst’s but sometimes they act unexpectedly lol
My boss (I work for the Army as a civilian) is a retired Army Colonel. We've had the discussion that he wishes Bill Alexander wouldn't have held on to the 6.5 Grendel patent as long as he did...it may have become the NATO standard if he didn't.
I'm an old man, and I'm working off my memory. The 6.5 Grendel was all about working well at over 400 meters. I believe that in Afghanistan, there were complaints that 5.56 wasn't getting it done when the troops were trying to get out 500, 600 yards. That would be the ranges that would be of interest to me. Now that said, range clearance might be a major issue for you. Like you, safety 1st.
The higher sectional density (same mass, smaller diameter) of 6.5 Gr means better penetration than 7.62x39. Less wind drift than 7.62x39 due to BC will help make 6.5 Gr a lot more accurate at long range.
@@ThoughtCriminal867The Grendel shines at distance. At close ranges, the 7.62 is hard to beat. It retains energy well, and punches a bigger hole up close. 😮
Outstanding information. I took a screenshot at your data at the 8:05 mark to use it at the which is better discussion with friends over a couple of cold ones 🍻. It’s always better when you bring real data. 👍🏼 👌 thanks.
I have 16” uppers in 556 and 7.62x39. The more I learn about 6.5 Grendel the more interested I get in adding a 6.5 Grendel upper. Thanks for the info. 👍
Hey fellow hillbilly. I've been on the grendel bandwagon for several years now and appreciate comparisons. From what I've been able to gather, velocity per SD appears to be the most important quotient. The Grendel will still be at 1000 ft-lbs at 400 yards, which is the common limit for ethical deer hunting, and why I've chosen it. I do love the other calibers, and don't think there's a concernable difference up within 100 yards.I have up to 350 yards where I hunt, which I will only use the 6.5 for.
Thanks for showing a video for the Grendel using a 16" barrel! Please do more! I recently got an upper with a 16" to build for deer and hog hunting, with mobility and short distance in mind (up to 200 yds). If hunting past 100 yds (say 150-200 yds) I'll take the Grendel as it'll lose less energy than the 7.62, where the remaining energy will still be adequate for an ethical termination.
Great Video. Great Comparison. I see why our servicemen think the 7.62x39 is a superior round to the 5.56. The retained energy at 100 yards is significant.
As a serviceman, I have to disagree. The lackluster performance of the 7.62x39 has been documented since Vietnam. We had several guys within the company that were hit by 7.62x39 and returned to their units during the same deployment or shortly after they returned stateside. Unless the 7.62x39 hit a bone or a large blood-bearing organ, the projectiles did relatively little damage. As noted by Fackler, the M43 round penetrates 26 cm before significant yawing occurs, and until that point it creates a narrow, uncomplicated wound similar in profile to non-expanding handgun rounds. The steel core Chinese stuff was even worse. Part of this is due to the twist rate of the Kalashnikov, at 9.45 inches, which radically over stabilizes the projectiles. The military issue 7.62x39 is traveling around 2350 fps exiting the muzzle, and drops below 2200 fps around 50 to 75 yards, meaning it isn't even technically a high velocity rifle round past the distance of a good NFL punt. The 7.62x39, aside from yawing late lacked the velocity to fragment or even flatten the projectiles. I had an instructor at SOI that took 3 rounds of 7.62x39 from an AK to the lower back at near contact distance as he breached a doorway, including one round that missed his lumbar spine by about an inch and a half. He cleared the entire structure with his squad, stood around bullshitting with his Corpsman until Medivac arrived, then climbed onto the helicopter himself. He was back with his unit within 6 weeks. By comparison, the M855 from an M16A4 left the muzzle at over 3150 fps and fragmented reliably all the way out to nearly 200 yards, and left the muzzle of an M4 at 2920 fps retaining the 2700 fps necessary to fragment consistently out to 140 yards. It was a far more lethal round. In this test, .223 Remington was used, which typically achieves a muzzle velocity about 150 fps less than a true 5.56 mm load, meaning a true 5.56mm load would have had as much velocity at 100 yards as the .223 round had at the muzzle. Additionally, the military 7.62x39 loads run a good 200 fps less than the commercial round tested here. A swing of over 300 fps in favor of the 5.56, and better performing projectiles makes the 5.56 much more effective than the 7.62x39 in a military context. By my SOI Combat Instructor's own admission, if he had gotten tagged by 5.56 in the same manner, he would have been instantly crippled and would have probably bled out within two minutes. Every relevant fighting force, including the military that originally created and adopted the round, has ditched the 7.62x39. Every major military uses small caliber high velocity rifle rounds like the 5.56. 5.45x39, and 5.8x42, because these rounds are more effective, are flatter shooting, and lighter in both weight and recoil. The 7.62x39 has a demonstrated history of mediocrity and is absolutely not superior in any way to 5.56 NATO.
That was a long very informative detailed discourse with quite a bit of information, but the comment was simply that the guys felt 7.62x39 was superior to 5.56. Troops felt 5.56 had less knock down power. Hit your target and unless you've hit a vital organ or a head shot then they keep coming at you or if you're lucky they run off and you get nothing but a blood trail - especially if they were poppied up. As far as ditching 7.62x39, as I watch current news regarding two ongoing wars I constantly see weaponry chambered in that particular caliber being widely used in both wars.@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62
This video makes me happy about my 6.5 grendel and ammo choice. I chronographed Nemo brand at 2650fps out of a 20" Bear Creek upper, so I already have the edge over the other 2 rounds at muzzle 😊
Would either of you be willing to say at what altitude you're shooting at? I'm at or below 1K foot altitude and don't get those velocities out of my 20" Gren.
@@GB-zi6qr I am 690ft above sea level and I just recorded a video shooting max charges using 123gr bullets and h335, varget, cfe 223, and blc2 powders. I also tested Hornady black factory ammunition and the highest velocity I got was 2400 fps from an 18” barrel. Factory hornady black shot mid to low 2300’s
I loved the useful information. Looked like that Grendel load was moving slower than the battle mower. It's the same case, just necked down as the 762x39(with a sm rifle primer). It should be moving at least 2500 fps with the 123 grain bullet. Glad you didn't shoot the chrono. 😊
I haven’t found a powder or load that pushes as hard as the cfe blk does the x39. That x39 load is a bit quicker than any other powder listing I’ve found. I’m gonna try cfe 223 in the Grendel soon when I get some.
Not sure how the shorter barrel is going to work out. I load 123gn ELD-M's in Grendel with CFE223, I'm getting about 2470fps MV out of my 20" gas gun. I'm really interested in how that load works in a 16" barrel. FYI, I'm using 30.2gns of CFE. No, it's not the hottest charge but I get pretty nice groups with it. Check the Grendal forum for the starting point. Follow the normal safe loading rules. Stay safe and tight groups.
Thanks to everyone who has answered my questions. Just for the record, I do reload, .223 and 6.5 Grendel. Ironically I reload 62grn BTHP's in .223 and the one thing that has always puzzled me. From all the loading data I've seen, the max charge for the 62grn is lower than just about every other weight bullet for the .223. My load for the .223 gives me ~2790fps out of a 24" bolt action rifle, factory Hornady Black .223 62grn BTFMJ clocks at ~3300fps from the same rifle. Is there anyone else out there that reloads .223 that has noticed this?
Those were some whimpy 6.5's. My 6.5 grendel load with a 129 gr. Accubond LR are going 2540. With that little SST, you should have been in the 2600 range. Interesting though.
@@thegundungeon Hodgden is nervous about high pressures... Alexander talked about 2600 fps from a 24in barrel with 120 g bullets, if I'm not mistaken. For data comparison with .308.
I was surprised that the 7.62 was faster than the more svelte 6.5. It helped to know that the 7.62 was loaded with a spicier powder. I like all three cartridges, but especially the COMBLOK offerings. We would love for you to throw in the 5.45x39 if possible. 😊 MAGA 🎉
The Serbian army introduced the 6.5Grendel (local version 6.5x39) and modular Zastava M19 rifle (AK-47 derivative) with two calibers (6.5Grendel and 7.62x39). In the future, 6.5Grendel will be the main bullet for serbian infantry units. Currently, it is only used by special units. Otherwise Serbian 🇷🇸 vojska koristi sva 3 kalibra... I odlučila je da se u budućnosti opredeli za 6,5Grendel...
Yes sir, I too have the .223 & the 6.5 Grendel. I like them both, but have no ideal as to what they are putting out. I use the same powder on both because I can't get what I would rather have.
Would be interesting to see the .308 (AR10) thrown into the mix. I see a trend growing of lightweight AR10s with shorter barrels. There was a study done recently comparing .308 velocity at various barrel lengths and if I had not seen the chart/testing, I wouldn't have believed it, but it didn't start significantly dropping velocity until it dropped below a 13" barrel. This makes sense why the FAL (.308) are used with 13" barrels by some militaries. Look at the weight of the semi new Ruger SFAR (.308) with a 16" barrel along with the strong performance of the round and its exciting. Also 5.56 ammo is not far off in price anymore to .308.
One of my favorite calibers 6.5 Grendel but the velocity seems too low for Hornady SST 123 ? Great to see (risky) you testing velocity at 100 yds. Grendel will stretch out and leave the others behind. Nice vid.
those velocity seem low for the Grendel until I read the velocities were achieved with reloads that you were loading for accuracy. I know the factory loaded SST the 123s around 2500 out of my 20-inch Howa mini bolt action .
This is a good video but I believe that a bolt gun will always have a velocity advantage over a gas gun, even if it's small, The bolt gun does not have to divert any of its forward energy to operate the bolt. Anyway this is what I was always taught. Still a nice video. I am also running 140 gr. RDF with 28 gr. of 2520 and getting a velocity of 2295 this takes my grindel to a whole new level. I got this load off of RUclips. (Johnny's reloading bench) and it seems to work very well.
I don't think your reasoning follows through here. Semi auto's like these are designed to only start to unlock after the chamber pressure has come down to safe level, so that the velocity of the bolt after it unlocks is slow enough as to not damage itself or the rifle. That pressure drop is only really possible after the bullet has left the barrel and the propellant gas can follow it out.
You're both actually right but bird is a little closer to being more right. Direct impingement or any piston gas gun takes away some of the gas to drive the bullet down the barrel to move the bolt rearward. A bolt gun does not do this so therefore it uses all the gas to move the bullet and not bleed some off to move the bolt. Optimum barrel length for a 6.5 Grendel is 20-22" so the 6.5 was at a disadvantage right off the bat.
I haven’t tested it but considering gas guns are delayed until the pressure has dropped before unlocking, I can’t imagine the difference being more than what the difference is between shot to shot. The little gas that’s tapped off to operate the action isn’t much, but I may put my theory to the test and see for sure.
6.5 grendel is pretty good deer round shot doe at 80 yards with sst double lung her and had 50 cent piece exit hole but inside were blown apart lungs and heart ..
What loads are you shooting in the Grendel? I've shot a lot of factory ammo out of my 18" gas gun. I've never seen anything less than 2300 fps. Most are in the 2400 range. My hand loads average 2520 with a 123 gr SST and H335 powder and it shoots sub MOA.
I've had great results from TAC, and H335. Tried H322, very consistent, but difficult to keep it sub MOA. I tried W748 as well. Pretty accurate but I the 2250-2300 range for speed. Too slow for good downrange bullet performance in my opinion.
I was going to ask why this didn’t go 500-600 yards, but the findings were pretty great even at 100. If you took it to 500 or 600 boy that would be something. Seeing a relatively heavy cartridge that can fit in an AR15 and not an AR10 platform, perform at AR10 platform levels is quite good.
I've been running DM Courses since 1995. In a recent course, a guy brought a 24" .223 bolt gun shooting hot 77gr loads. At 760yds on steel, the 12" 6.5 Grendel was hitting way harder and visibly/audibly so, with factory ammo. We've always had problems registering the hits with 5.56 at 400yds on out due to such low bullet weights. It just doesn't have much energy after 300yds.
I have seen the 6.5 Creedmoore which is interesting,Is that an updated 6.5 bullet, I, like to see some of these new rounds fire,which I never heard of,you should do a channel on odd bullets and guns,
The loss of energy should be counted in percentage of the energy at the muzzle. Otherwise is normal that the bullet that has less energy to start with loses less of it. In 100 yards: the .223 lost 10.8% of it's energy. The 6.5 Grendel lost 10.3%. the 7.62X39 lost 21.4%.
Yea I went back and looked at the video, still I’m impressed with a steel cased ammo. The hornady was moving very well also for the grain bullet. Looks like 6.5 grendal best selling point is the efficiency of the round. Thanks for the info!!
If you are going to load 123g bullets I wouldn’t push much past 2500 fps. Really going to depend on your powder. I think CFE -223 and maybe one other I can’t think of might get you close to 2550 but that’s pretty hot. I have had excellent results with AR-COMP with 123’s sticking around 2450-2460 fps.
What's that Grendel load? That's 200~300fps slower than any I have. And that 7.62x39 is almost conversely faster than any 123 loads I have. I find that very odd. Interesting presentation
Grendel was a h335 loading, not the fastest by any means, x39 was loaded with cfe blk, which is top dog for that round and speed. I’d just begun my search for speed with the Grendel and have long since settled on cfe223 as the cure for faster Grendel loads.
How much velocity and energy difference you think might come from gas vs bolt gun ?? Maybe a little, maybe a lot, I don’t know, not enough experience on my end, but curious..
Wow, I would have thought there would be a decent difference, good to know. I’m assembling a 6.5 Grendel right now and can’t wait to have fun with it. Thanks for the reply.
Yeah I’ve been loading more for accuracy with the Grendel than I have terminal performance. I have some cfe223 powder on the way that should yield higher velocities.
@@SHTFHunter sometimes. I haven’t found a factory x39 load that can come close to the velocity I get from that cfe blk load featured in this video. There’s a lot of variables, what powders are available for the cartridge and of course barrel length plays a big factor with how those powders actually produce velocity. I have a short showing how published data for 308 is contradicted in terms of fastest velocities when the barrel is shortened to 16”.
That is a really good question and the only two variables I can think of that would effect that would be bullet diameter and starting velocity. I just loaded up some 30-06 to put this theory to test, I have a load with a 208gr eld loaded to max velocity (around 2500fps) a set of loads with a 150gr 30-30 bullet low bc, loaded to max (around 3k fps) and the same low bc 30-30 150gr bullet loaded to the same speed as the 208gr eld. In this test I’ll be looking for two things with the same bullet diameters from the same gun. 1. How much starting velocity plays a factor between the two 150gr loads 2. The same starting velocity between the different BC loads. We will see… stay tuned.
@@thegundungeon I am not sure how much diameter has to do with it. Any two bullets with the same BC and the same velocity should have the same exterior ballistics, regardless of caliber or weight. While the BCs you list are correct according to the bullet manufactures, I have to wonder what is going on here. A bullet with a lower BC should not lose less velocity than a bullet of higher BC, regardless of caliber. The only thing I can think of is that Nosler is a bit optimistic with the G1 BC of the Varmagedon, or less likely, Hornady is a bit conservative about the BC of the Vmax. The Vympel 124 gr FMJBT has a G1 of .268 while Fed/LC M855 has a G1 of .304, so comparing the factory BCs of these two loads to common military loads does make me suspicious. Maybe the Vmax is a flat base?
You’re not wrong. I just grabbed some data from hodgdon. If you want some speed I’ve found cfe223 does really well, I’m getting close to 2500fps with a 120g copper bullet with it from 18” barrel
Not sure which BC you used, but the G7 is affected by velocity, the slower, the more BC value you loose. It’s not the same BC at muzzle and at 50, 100, 200 … yards.
I also think your BC on the 6.5 Grendel is wrong. It should be somewhere closer to about 510. I believe that that's should be the highest ballistic coefficient bullet of those three. But the other problem I'm having is you're using sporting rounds not actual military rounds
The Germans find that the larger the caliber, the faster the bullet slows down. the Russians say in a small caliber at full auto the barrel warps when it gets hot and you lose accuracy. Ask a gunny what they prefer.
This was more about the ballistic coefficients, not so much about round vs round. I’ll be doing one similar, maybe shooting it this weekend, using 30-06 only and using a 208gr bullet with high bc, a 150gr bullet intended for 30-30 with low bc, and that 150gr bullet again only downloaded to the same muzzle velocity of the 208gr round. Hoping to rule out some variables and get a better look at just the BC effect
@@robcrutchfield-ho6gl eh the creedmoor is based on the 308 case, it won’t fit in an ar15 platform, the Grendel is the same case length as 7.62x39 so it’s shorter and will fit in the ar15 platform. Two different cartridges for two different rifles.
In Close Quarters, the 7.62x39 may have better terminal ballistics, but 6.5 Grendel will be able to reach out and touch targets at greater distances which is what it was designed for. With appropriate optics, it allows at least 600 meters. I'd rather use .300 Blackout in Close Quarters than the 7.62x39 (or the 6.5 Grendel). It allows shorter barrel with a 5.56 Bolt and produces similar terminal ballistics at 100 meters and under, especially when it drops to 50 meters or less. It's what the .300 Blackout was created for.
Oh there’s lots of variables at play not mentioned. Many I’m not even aware of I’m sure, I’m definitely not done with this series and plan on eliminating certain variables as I go along.
While GD didn't consider bullet weight, he did use what is probably the most prolific ammo for each caliber. While 77gn is heavy for 223/5.56, 62gn is really, IMO, the sweet spot for that caliber. 123gn is what Grendal was developed with, as I understand, this is also about the heaviest bullet you want to use. I concede that x39 has the energy advantage at short range but where x39 drops off Grendel is hauling the beans. Now, with all this Grendel talk, you really can't compare Grendel and .308. 308Win is a short action cartridge, drives a heavier bullet at a higher MV. While .308 is a "short" action cartridge, it's still quite a bit longer than those other rounds. Those others are intermediate cartridges, also called "Micro Action" cartridges. IMO, Grendel makes about the most of the available capacity in these intermediate cartridges. What it gives up in the short range it takes back at further distances. Just my ¢.02.
I did a breakdown of percentage loss.
The 6.5 had a 10.3% energy loss and 5.3% velocity loss.
The 5.56 had a 10.7% energy loss and a 5.6% velocity loss.
The 7.62x39 had a 21.4% energy loss and a 11.3% velocity loss.
That x39 slowing like it has a jake brake lol That’s a great comparison with percentages, thank you!
@@thegundungeon I like that cartridge a lot and it still had really good energy out there.
But man is it slowing down quick!
When you put it that way, it really puts it in perspective!
I really figured the 6.5 would have more oumf behind it like pushing the 2500 to 2600fps
@@alexjones2924I hand load Grendel, out of my 20" gas gun I'm getting about 2470fps. This is the same projectile as depicted in the video. You may ask, being a hand loader, why did I stop at 2470? With this load I've matched Hornady's 123 Black ELD-M load in my rig and I get fantastic groups.
From what I understand, these results are pretty spot on.
I guess you could call me a Grendel fanboy but I do admit its short comings.
I see a 6.5 grendel video, i give it a thumbs up
If you keep making these simple straightforward videos about 6.5 Grendel, your channel is gonna grow fast. There’s very little info on 6.5 Grendel with any shooting. Lots of Ron sooner talking or who tee who loving the cartridge but if you keep making these visual videos about it they’ll be a standard in years to come
Thank you, I’ll do my best
Wait until you search "carpe sus" 90 to 95gr pills are smokin
Love my 6.5 Grendel! Not much on RUclips about it.
Thanks man.
as a fellow 6.5 Grendel enthusiast I agree
Who tee who does a good review on Grendel.
Great video Sir.
I use the 6.5 Grendel for work (Wildlife Management). It’s my “one gun solution” (Diamondback Firearms 18”, shoots sub-MOA)
The Hornady 123 grain SST is my primary ammo choice. It has worked on everything from armadillo to beavers to coyotes to pigs to bears.
For coyotes, I’ve found that unless you take a high shoulder shot, the SST will simply pass through without expansion, resulting is run away dogs.
Defender Ammo in NC loads a 105 Sierra Blitzking that is perfect for coyotes and smaller game.
It also seems that the Grendel has a less offensive sound signature than the 223 / 556.
If you ever get a chance to get ahold of them, the 120gr Speer gold dots are spectacular in Grendel. It’s what I load for my wife to hunt with. Full pass throughs and excellent expansion every time. I took a Doe with a neck shot using sst and didn’t get an exit lol. I have a short showing it. I like sst’s but sometimes they act unexpectedly lol
Keep the 6.5 vids going.
I just bought 500 ELD’s, I’m about to start an accuracy series with it.
My boss (I work for the Army as a civilian) is a retired Army Colonel. We've had the discussion that he wishes Bill Alexander wouldn't have held on to the 6.5 Grendel patent as long as he did...it may have become the NATO standard if he didn't.
I'm an old man, and I'm working off my memory. The 6.5 Grendel was all about working well at over 400 meters. I believe that in Afghanistan, there were complaints that 5.56 wasn't getting it done when the troops were trying to get out 500, 600 yards. That would be the ranges that would be of interest to me. Now that said, range clearance might be a major issue for you. Like you, safety 1st.
I firmly believe that the 6-6.5mm bullet is perfect for the military applications. 6.5 Grendel checks the boxes and its weird that it didnt pick up.
I’ll definitely take the 6.5 Grendel. It had the smallest percentage of velocity and energy loss and that BC is going to really tell at longer range.
I’m a big Grendel fan too
The higher sectional density (same mass, smaller diameter) of 6.5 Gr means better penetration than 7.62x39. Less wind drift than 7.62x39 due to BC will help make 6.5 Gr a lot more accurate at long range.
@@ThoughtCriminal867The Grendel shines at distance. At close ranges, the 7.62 is hard to beat. It retains energy well, and punches a bigger hole up close. 😮
I like your accent, it’s clear, concise, and easy to understand.
Good video sir. I love my howa mini in 6.5 grendel. Great format and very interesting data
Great test! Interesting results!
Outstanding information.
I took a screenshot at your data at the 8:05 mark to use it at the which is better discussion with friends over a couple of cold ones 🍻. It’s always better when you bring real data.
👍🏼 👌 thanks.
Glad I could win you a bar argument! lol 😂. You owe me a cold one!
Interesting & surprising results.
Thank you. Liking the ultimate utility vehicle. Very practical & multi-purpose.
Battle mowers need to become a thing lol 😂
Super like this channel! always great content, fun to watch. And super info and testing. Good sharp shooting at 100 through Chrono. 😳👍
Thank you so much! I appreciate that!
Nicely done. Most channels only calculate the 100yd or muzzle velocity. You actually shot at your chromo at 100yds. Well done!
Thank you. More to come!
Great test and really useful information, thank Mr. Gun Dungeon. Really shows how velocity and a high BC bullet play in ballistics.
Glad you enjoyed, thanks for watching!
PSA has a video out on their new 6.5 Grendel ammo. Hornady bullets.
Excellent video! Thanks a bunch!👍
I have 16” uppers in 556 and 7.62x39. The more I learn about 6.5 Grendel the more interested I get in adding a 6.5 Grendel upper. Thanks for the info. 👍
Hey fellow hillbilly. I've been on the grendel bandwagon for several years now and appreciate comparisons.
From what I've been able to gather, velocity per SD appears to be the most important quotient. The Grendel will still be at 1000 ft-lbs at 400 yards, which is the common limit for ethical deer hunting, and why I've chosen it. I do love the other calibers, and don't think there's a concernable difference up within 100 yards.I have up to 350 yards where I hunt, which I will only use the 6.5 for.
Thanks for showing a video for the Grendel using a 16" barrel! Please do more! I recently got an upper with a 16" to build for deer and hog hunting, with mobility and short distance in mind (up to 200 yds). If hunting past 100 yds (say 150-200 yds) I'll take the Grendel as it'll lose less energy than the 7.62, where the remaining energy will still be adequate for an ethical termination.
I will definitely be using the 16” in more now that hunting season is over and my wife has given it back to me lol 😂
@@thegundungeon 😂
Making videos great again!! 👍🏻💪🏻
Lol 😂 thank ya
Great Video. Great Comparison. I see why our servicemen think the 7.62x39 is a superior round to the 5.56. The retained energy at 100 yards is significant.
As a serviceman, I have to disagree. The lackluster performance of the 7.62x39 has been documented since Vietnam. We had several guys within the company that were hit by 7.62x39 and returned to their units during the same deployment or shortly after they returned stateside. Unless the 7.62x39 hit a bone or a large blood-bearing organ, the projectiles did relatively little damage. As noted by Fackler, the M43 round penetrates 26 cm before significant yawing occurs, and until that point it creates a narrow, uncomplicated wound similar in profile to non-expanding handgun rounds. The steel core Chinese stuff was even worse. Part of this is due to the twist rate of the Kalashnikov, at 9.45 inches, which radically over stabilizes the projectiles.
The military issue 7.62x39 is traveling around 2350 fps exiting the muzzle, and drops below 2200 fps around 50 to 75 yards, meaning it isn't even technically a high velocity rifle round past the distance of a good NFL punt. The 7.62x39, aside from yawing late lacked the velocity to fragment or even flatten the projectiles. I had an instructor at SOI that took 3 rounds of 7.62x39 from an AK to the lower back at near contact distance as he breached a doorway, including one round that missed his lumbar spine by about an inch and a half. He cleared the entire structure with his squad, stood around bullshitting with his Corpsman until Medivac arrived, then climbed onto the helicopter himself. He was back with his unit within 6 weeks. By comparison, the M855 from an M16A4 left the muzzle at over 3150 fps and fragmented reliably all the way out to nearly 200 yards, and left the muzzle of an M4 at 2920 fps retaining the 2700 fps necessary to fragment consistently out to 140 yards. It was a far more lethal round.
In this test, .223 Remington was used, which typically achieves a muzzle velocity about 150 fps less than a true 5.56 mm load, meaning a true 5.56mm load would have had as much velocity at 100 yards as the .223 round had at the muzzle. Additionally, the military 7.62x39 loads run a good 200 fps less than the commercial round tested here. A swing of over 300 fps in favor of the 5.56, and better performing projectiles makes the 5.56 much more effective than the 7.62x39 in a military context. By my SOI Combat Instructor's own admission, if he had gotten tagged by 5.56 in the same manner, he would have been instantly crippled and would have probably bled out within two minutes. Every relevant fighting force, including the military that originally created and adopted the round, has ditched the 7.62x39. Every major military uses small caliber high velocity rifle rounds like the 5.56. 5.45x39, and 5.8x42, because these rounds are more effective, are flatter shooting, and lighter in both weight and recoil. The 7.62x39 has a demonstrated history of mediocrity and is absolutely not superior in any way to 5.56 NATO.
@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62I came to say about 20% of what you said. Well said.
That was a long very informative detailed discourse with quite a bit of information, but the comment was simply that the guys felt 7.62x39 was superior to 5.56. Troops felt 5.56 had less knock down power. Hit your target and unless you've hit a vital organ or a head shot then they keep coming at you or if you're lucky they run off and you get nothing but a blood trail - especially if they were poppied up. As far as ditching 7.62x39, as I watch current news regarding two ongoing wars I constantly see weaponry chambered in that particular caliber being widely used in both wars.@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62
I would have thought the Grendel would come out on top.
I think it will on down range
This video makes me happy about my 6.5 grendel and ammo choice. I chronographed Nemo brand at 2650fps out of a 20" Bear Creek upper, so I already have the edge over the other 2 rounds at muzzle 😊
That’s scooting!
That's on par with what I get in my 20" BCA Grendel upper as well shooting 123 grain Hornady ELD-Match over H-335 powder.
Would either of you be willing to say at what altitude you're shooting at?
I'm at or below 1K foot altitude and don't get those velocities out of my 20" Gren.
@@GB-zi6qr I am 690ft above sea level and I just recorded a video shooting max charges using 123gr bullets and h335, varget, cfe 223, and blc2 powders. I also tested Hornady black factory ammunition and the highest velocity I got was 2400 fps from an 18” barrel. Factory hornady black shot mid to low 2300’s
@@GB-zi6qr Metro Phoenix area, so about 500 ft elevation.
I loved the useful information. Looked like that Grendel load was moving slower than the battle mower. It's the same case, just necked down as the 762x39(with a sm rifle primer). It should be moving at least 2500 fps with the 123 grain bullet. Glad you didn't shoot the chrono. 😊
I haven’t found a powder or load that pushes as hard as the cfe blk does the x39. That x39 load is a bit quicker than any other powder listing I’ve found. I’m gonna try cfe 223 in the Grendel soon when I get some.
@@thegundungeon Try H335 or Xterminator. Good luck. Reloading is a fun journey.
@@joneifer8987 I have some h335 loads. This was either h335 or blc2 I can’t remember which.
Not sure how the shorter barrel is going to work out. I load 123gn ELD-M's in Grendel with CFE223, I'm getting about 2470fps MV out of my 20" gas gun. I'm really interested in how that load works in a 16" barrel. FYI, I'm using 30.2gns of CFE. No, it's not the hottest charge but I get pretty nice groups with it.
Check the Grendal forum for the starting point.
Follow the normal safe loading rules.
Stay safe and tight groups.
@@GB-zi6qr I’ll definitely update. May be in a short so keep an eye out for it.
Yeah man great job!
cant wait to build my grendel. was going to do arc but i also shoot Creedmoor so it makes since. or now the 6mm arc
Thanks to everyone who has answered my questions. Just for the record, I do reload, .223 and 6.5 Grendel. Ironically I reload 62grn BTHP's in .223 and the one thing that has always puzzled me. From all the loading data I've seen, the max charge for the 62grn is lower than just about every other weight bullet for the .223.
My load for the .223 gives me ~2790fps out of a 24" bolt action rifle, factory Hornady Black .223 62grn BTFMJ clocks at ~3300fps from the same rifle.
Is there anyone else out there that reloads .223 that has noticed this?
Great video!!!
Those were some whimpy 6.5's. My 6.5 grendel load with a 129 gr. Accubond LR are going 2540. With that little SST, you should have been in the 2600 range. Interesting though.
I just use published data. Hodgdon lists a max charge of h335 at 2446fps from a 24” barrel, so the velocity is on par from 16”
@@thegundungeon Hodgden is nervous about high pressures... Alexander talked about 2600 fps from a 24in barrel with 120 g bullets, if I'm not mistaken. For data comparison with .308.
I was going to say the same thing my 6.5 Grendel 18" DMR Intermediate Barrel IMR 8208 XBR 28.0 GRS. MAX. 2615 fps Min. 2585 fps 100 grs Nosler
I'm getting 2550 with the SST out of a 16 inch barrel using CFE 223.
@@johncollins3503 I’ve recently switched to cfe 223 and doing well with it.
Just a hillbilly out in the back yard shooting shit 🤣😂🤣😂🤣showing the love from Mississippi
Good video GD!
Thank you sir!
@@thegundungeon you got it!
I was surprised that the 7.62 was faster than the more svelte 6.5. It helped to know that the 7.62 was loaded with a spicier powder. I like all three cartridges, but especially the COMBLOK offerings. We would love for you to throw in the 5.45x39 if possible. 😊 MAGA 🎉
The Serbian army introduced the 6.5Grendel (local version 6.5x39) and modular Zastava M19 rifle (AK-47 derivative) with two calibers (6.5Grendel and 7.62x39). In the future, 6.5Grendel will be the main bullet for serbian infantry units. Currently, it is only used by special units.
Otherwise Serbian 🇷🇸 vojska koristi sva 3 kalibra... I odlučila je da se u budućnosti opredeli za 6,5Grendel...
I'd like too see ballistic gel results at 100 yds of these 3
Yes sir, I too have the .223 & the 6.5 Grendel. I like them both, but have no ideal as to what they are putting out. I use the same powder on both because I can't get what I would rather have.
Well in my recent search for better velocity with the Grendel… cfe223 has been producing great results.
I'll have to find and try it.@@thegundungeon
Grendel 🐲
Subscribed!
@@jasonsierchio1167 thank you
Would be interesting to see the .308 (AR10) thrown into the mix. I see a trend growing of lightweight AR10s with shorter barrels. There was a study done recently comparing .308 velocity at various barrel lengths and if I had not seen the chart/testing, I wouldn't have believed it, but it didn't start significantly dropping velocity until it dropped below a 13" barrel. This makes sense why the FAL (.308) are used with 13" barrels by some militaries. Look at the weight of the semi new Ruger SFAR (.308) with a 16" barrel along with the strong performance of the round and its exciting. Also 5.56 ammo is not far off in price anymore to .308.
Also .308 with a brass case is about 17 cents cheaper per round than the 6.5 Grendel STEEL case.
American Eagle lists their 150 grain .308 ammo out of a 16" barrel at 100 yards at 2,420 fps and 1,950 ft lbs for anyone curious.
Muzzle was 2,640 FPS ; 2,321 ft lbs for anyone wanting to see the percentage of power drop.
I've been a big AR-10 guy since the 1990s. 6.5 Grendel ruined the AR-10 for me basically.
One of my favorite calibers 6.5 Grendel but the velocity seems too low for Hornady SST 123 ? Great to see (risky) you testing velocity at 100 yds. Grendel will stretch out and leave the others behind. Nice vid.
That's because, it depends on the barrel length. They were all 16" barrels to keep the results fair
those velocity seem low for the Grendel until I read the velocities were achieved with reloads that you were loading for accuracy. I know the factory loaded SST the 123s around 2500 out of my 20-inch Howa mini bolt action .
Yeah and it’s a 16” barrel. When you look at reloading data they typically use a 24” barrel.
@@thegundungeon that's why I split the difference and went with a 20 on mine
First I've seen your channel.
Looks like I have to catch up.
Hope you enjoy what you see!
This is a good video but I believe that a bolt gun will always have a velocity advantage over a gas gun, even if it's small, The bolt gun does not have to divert any of its forward energy to operate the bolt. Anyway this is what I was always taught. Still a nice video. I am also running 140 gr. RDF with 28 gr. of 2520 and getting a velocity of 2295 this takes my grindel to a whole new level. I got this load off of RUclips. (Johnny's reloading bench) and it seems to work very well.
I don't think your reasoning follows through here. Semi auto's like these are designed to only start to unlock after the chamber pressure has come down to safe level, so that the velocity of the bolt after it unlocks is slow enough as to not damage itself or the rifle. That pressure drop is only really possible after the bullet has left the barrel and the propellant gas can follow it out.
You're both actually right but bird is a little closer to being more right. Direct impingement or any piston gas gun takes away some of the gas to drive the bullet down the barrel to move the bolt rearward. A bolt gun does not do this so therefore it uses all the gas to move the bullet and not bleed some off to move the bolt. Optimum barrel length for a 6.5 Grendel is 20-22" so the 6.5 was at a disadvantage right off the bat.
I was just wondering of the velocity difference between a bolt gun vs gas?
I haven’t tested it but considering gas guns are delayed until the pressure has dropped before unlocking, I can’t imagine the difference being more than what the difference is between shot to shot. The little gas that’s tapped off to operate the action isn’t much, but I may put my theory to the test and see for sure.
LOL - why walk when you can drive! Good test.
6.5 grendel is pretty good deer round shot doe at 80 yards with sst double lung her and had 50 cent piece exit hole but inside were blown apart lungs and heart ..
It’s all my wife uses and has been successful. The Speer gold dot bullet is phenomenal in it
From my understanding the further distance out the more advantage 7.62x39 has in energy but with the disadvantage of bullet drop.
What loads are you shooting in the Grendel? I've shot a lot of factory ammo out of my 18" gas gun. I've never seen anything less than 2300 fps. Most are in the 2400 range. My hand loads average 2520 with a 123 gr SST and H335 powder and it shoots sub MOA.
This was a BLC2 load
I have more content comin with 6.5 Grendel. One of which is gonna be the fastest loads using 5-6 different powders from 16-18” barrels. Stay tuned
Just bought 500 ELDs to play with lol
I've had great results from TAC, and H335. Tried H322, very consistent, but difficult to keep it sub MOA. I tried W748 as well. Pretty accurate but I the 2250-2300 range for speed. Too slow for good downrange bullet performance in my opinion.
I was going to ask why this didn’t go 500-600 yards, but the findings were pretty great even at 100. If you took it to 500 or 600 boy that would be something. Seeing a relatively heavy cartridge that can fit in an AR15 and not an AR10 platform, perform at AR10 platform levels is quite good.
Unfortunately all I have to play with at home is 100 yards. Honestly in the hills of east Kentucky, a 600 yard shot is hard to find lol
Interesting comparison!
Do you have any 77 grain 5.56 you can compare to the Grendel? I do believe it will hold on to more energy farther out.
I didn’t at the time but I’m not done with this series just yet lol
@@thegundungeon I'm tuned in!
I've been running DM Courses since 1995. In a recent course, a guy brought a 24" .223 bolt gun shooting hot 77gr loads.
At 760yds on steel, the 12" 6.5 Grendel was hitting way harder and visibly/audibly so, with factory ammo.
We've always had problems registering the hits with 5.56 at 400yds on out due to such low bullet weights. It just doesn't have much energy after 300yds.
I have seen the 6.5 Creedmoore which is interesting,Is that an updated 6.5 bullet, I, like to see some of these new rounds fire,which I never heard of,you should do a channel on odd bullets and guns,
I tend to mess around with some of the more obscure stuff.
It look like there is a new round everyday
@@thegundungeonIt is just nice to have fun
@@robcrutchfield-ho6gl there’s generally a couple new ones about every year seems like.
The loss of energy should be counted in percentage of the energy at the muzzle. Otherwise is normal that the bullet that has less energy to start with loses less of it.
In 100 yards:
the .223 lost 10.8% of it's energy.
The 6.5 Grendel lost 10.3%.
the 7.62X39 lost 21.4%.
Yeah I pinned a comment that the viewer broke it down like that. I didn’t even think to do that, awesome work!
I wonder if boat tail has a large effect on 7.62 or if it has it.
It’s a flat base but boat tail or not is a factor in determining the BC.
For my CZ & Ruger Predator in 6.5 Grendel, my rounds are closer to 2400 fps. I commonly hit at 710yds
What barrel lengtg
@thegundungeon my CZ is 16 my ruger is 20
I just seen a video from guns n gear, and the 6.5 grendal wolf ammo was going 2500fps out of 16”. Maybe I’m wrong but I think it was.
It’s 100gr bullets
Yea I went back and looked at the video, still I’m impressed with a steel cased ammo. The hornady was moving very well also for the grain bullet. Looks like 6.5 grendal best selling point is the efficiency of the round.
Thanks for the info!!
What are the best 20+ round mags for the 6.5 grendel?
Elander has worked the best for me
You need some different Grendel ammo. That stuff is way slow. That 16 inch barrel should push factory ammo at at least 2450.
I got some more Grendel content coming. One of which is finding the fastest velocity for it.
If you are going to load 123g bullets I wouldn’t push much past 2500 fps. Really going to depend on your powder. I think CFE -223 and maybe one other I can’t think of might get you close to 2550 but that’s pretty hot. I have had excellent results with AR-COMP with 123’s sticking around 2450-2460 fps.
What's that Grendel load? That's 200~300fps slower than any I have.
And that 7.62x39 is almost conversely faster than any 123 loads I have.
I find that very odd.
Interesting presentation
Grendel was a h335 loading, not the fastest by any means, x39 was loaded with cfe blk, which is top dog for that round and speed. I’d just begun my search for speed with the Grendel and have long since settled on cfe223 as the cure for faster Grendel loads.
How much velocity and energy difference you think might come from gas vs bolt gun ?? Maybe a little, maybe a lot, I don’t know, not enough experience on my end, but curious..
@@lmnhd1971 I don’t see much difference from my AK to my ruger ranch. Nothing outside of what shot to shot differences are
Wow, I would have thought there would be a decent difference, good to know. I’m assembling a 6.5 Grendel right now and can’t wait to have fun with it. Thanks for the reply.
I chronoed some Federal Fusion 120gr from a 18in barrel at 2500fps. That 300fps faster than what you're shooting.
Yeah I’ve been loading more for accuracy with the Grendel than I have terminal performance. I have some cfe223 powder on the way that should yield higher velocities.
Coincidently, that will be a video of its own, searching for the highest velocities in a couple different powders. Stay tuned lol
@@thegundungeon what I was shooting was factory loads. Factory loads seem to be hotter than reloads.
@@SHTFHunter sometimes. I haven’t found a factory x39 load that can come close to the velocity I get from that cfe blk load featured in this video. There’s a lot of variables, what powders are available for the cartridge and of course barrel length plays a big factor with how those powders actually produce velocity. I have a short showing how published data for 308 is contradicted in terms of fastest velocities when the barrel is shortened to 16”.
@@thegundungeon yeah that was fast for 7.62x39. How's the accuracy though? How much CFE?
If the 7.62x39 Varmagedon had a higher BC than the 60 grain Vmax, why did it lose more velocity at 100 yards?
That is a really good question and the only two variables I can think of that would effect that would be bullet diameter and starting velocity. I just loaded up some 30-06 to put this theory to test, I have a load with a 208gr eld loaded to max velocity (around 2500fps) a set of loads with a 150gr 30-30 bullet low bc, loaded to max (around 3k fps) and the same low bc 30-30 150gr bullet loaded to the same speed as the 208gr eld. In this test I’ll be looking for two things with the same bullet diameters from the same gun. 1. How much starting velocity plays a factor between the two 150gr loads
2. The same starting velocity between the different BC loads.
We will see… stay tuned.
@@thegundungeon I am not sure how much diameter has to do with it. Any two bullets with the same BC and the same velocity should have the same exterior ballistics, regardless of caliber or weight. While the BCs you list are correct according to the bullet manufactures, I have to wonder what is going on here. A bullet with a lower BC should not lose less velocity than a bullet of higher BC, regardless of caliber. The only thing I can think of is that Nosler is a bit optimistic with the G1 BC of the Varmagedon, or less likely, Hornady is a bit conservative about the BC of the Vmax. The Vympel 124 gr FMJBT has a G1 of .268 while Fed/LC M855 has a G1 of .304, so comparing the factory BCs of these two loads to common military loads does make me suspicious. Maybe the Vmax is a flat base?
So all good at 100 yds, and go to Grendel after 100
Lol most likely the case
I just know I dont want to be down range of any of them
The Hornady factory 123 SST load shows higher speed than what you got
You’re not wrong. I just grabbed some data from hodgdon. If you want some speed I’ve found cfe223 does really well, I’m getting close to 2500fps with a 120g copper bullet with it from 18” barrel
Grendel every time.
My 19" grendel shoots 123gr sst hornady custom at 2500fps fwiw
Not sure which BC you used, but the G7 is affected by velocity, the slower, the more BC value you loose. It’s not the same BC at muzzle and at 50, 100, 200 … yards.
G1 is what was listed on midway where I got the bc’s.
Got it!@@thegundungeon
Grendel works best with a little more barrel
It does but I’ve found a load now that’s pushing mid 2400’s with a 16”. Cfe 223 is what I’m using
I also think your BC on the 6.5 Grendel is wrong. It should be somewhere closer to about 510. I believe that that's should be the highest ballistic coefficient bullet of those three. But the other problem I'm having is you're using sporting rounds not actual military rounds
At 7:38 he shows the BC for the Grendel as .51 aka .510.
Who makes that bolt action?
Is a Ruger American ranch
Thank you. I just watched that video
watch out for the wagon or your wife will be mad.
The Germans find that the larger the caliber, the faster the bullet slows down. the Russians say in a small caliber at full auto the barrel warps when it gets hot and you lose accuracy. Ask a gunny what they prefer.
6.5 Grendel lower than 7.62x39???
That particular load was. I’ve worked up a pretty spicy load that’s pushing just as fast as the x39 now though
The Varmageddon round is 11:33 not a commonly found round. The Grendel would win if you used the most commonly found 7.62x39 rounds.
This was more about the ballistic coefficients, not so much about round vs round. I’ll be doing one similar, maybe shooting it this weekend, using 30-06 only and using a 208gr bullet with high bc, a 150gr bullet intended for 30-30 with low bc, and that 150gr bullet again only downloaded to the same muzzle velocity of the 208gr round. Hoping to rule out some variables and get a better look at just the BC effect
you need a four wheeler
lol don’t like the battle mower?
yeah I heard the 6,5 creedmoore, replaced the 6.5 grendal,
@@robcrutchfield-ho6gl eh the creedmoor is based on the 308 case, it won’t fit in an ar15 platform, the Grendel is the same case length as 7.62x39 so it’s shorter and will fit in the ar15 platform. Two different cartridges for two different rifles.
In Close Quarters, the 7.62x39 may have better terminal ballistics, but 6.5 Grendel will be able to reach out and touch targets at greater distances which is what it was designed for. With appropriate optics, it allows at least 600 meters. I'd rather use .300 Blackout in Close Quarters than the 7.62x39 (or the 6.5 Grendel). It allows shorter barrel with a 5.56 Bolt and produces similar terminal ballistics at 100 meters and under, especially when it drops to 50 meters or less. It's what the .300 Blackout was created for.
Altitude???????
East Ky so around 250-300ft
@@thegundungeon OK so at 275 ft your Grendel 123 SST BC is .542 (MV 2263 M100 2144)
@@fotispapadopoulos6933 I just used the listed G1 BC on midways site before doing any chrono work. Figured it would be easier to follow that way.
@@thegundungeon Oh Absolutely. I saw that in the video. Not trying to correct you. Just bored out of my mind and gave me something to do. LOL
How did you find a 6.5 Grendel load that was that enemy. Did somebody chop that Barrel in half
You are not considering bullet weight
Oh there’s lots of variables at play not mentioned. Many I’m not even aware of I’m sure, I’m definitely not done with this series and plan on eliminating certain variables as I go along.
While GD didn't consider bullet weight, he did use what is probably the most prolific ammo for each caliber. While 77gn is heavy for 223/5.56, 62gn is really, IMO, the sweet spot for that caliber. 123gn is what Grendal was developed with, as I understand, this is also about the heaviest bullet you want to use.
I concede that x39 has the energy advantage at short range but where x39 drops off Grendel is hauling the beans.
Now, with all this Grendel talk, you really can't compare Grendel and .308. 308Win is a short action cartridge, drives a heavier bullet at a higher MV. While .308 is a "short" action cartridge, it's still quite a bit longer than those other rounds. Those others are intermediate cartridges, also called "Micro Action" cartridges.
IMO, Grendel makes about the most of the available capacity in these intermediate cartridges. What it gives up in the short range it takes back at further distances.
Just my ¢.02.