Stellantis fires back at furious dealers who blame CEO for ‘Devastating Collapse'
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Stellantis fires back at furious dealers who blame CEO for ‘Devastating Collapse'
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Stellantis is the new Blackberry.
Maybe, just maybe the Korean will buy them out. Europe has a million auto manufacturer’s jobs. These people need work, or the economy will collapse.
@@myhome772 Overstated.
You meant rotten Berry, stinks not black
BINGO !!!!
Yes, they were on to something with the Wrangler 4xe, but haven't inceased battery capacity above 18 kWh since the 4xe drivetrain was introduced in 2021. Oh well, missed opportunity.
This CEO should be embarrassed to being picking up half a million dollars while leading this shambles let alone the crazy amount he’s still picking up at the moment.
No CEO is, with the exception of Elon Musk.
Embarrassed? Smiling all the way to the bank. Money for nothing, suckers.
@@jpb4264yes, Elon is waiting for his billion dollar payout. He’d be embrassed at just a million dollars
Stellantis put the wrong Carlos in charge of the company.
In an Australia, a few years back, Jeep had a big advertising push and a lot were bought. Most people who didn’t know better have figured out they aren’t the best vehicles. Never mind the prices now.
Niether are BMWs/Mercedes/Audis/VW but Aussies still buy them.
@@wonderwalls3565 You are absolutely right. They are expensive liability for those who don’t know better, or those who can afford to not care. I hope Toyota doesn’t Kodak itself. I’m really hoping we don’t end up with Chinese cars as our only choice. They are making some OK cars but I’m not considering any until they have a proven support network and track records for reliability and customer service. Luckily I only do 5000km a year and can afford to keep my 24yo car which is simple enough to maintain myself. It only owes me scrap metal value now. Every extra year I can ring out of it is a bonus. Yearly EV insurance rates are more than I paid for it 11 years ago.
Stellantis raised their prices 50% since 2019 no wonder no one buys their cars.
61%.
I think many manufacturers are currently in survival mode because there are too many insecurities.
Hello from France. The reason is simple, Stellantis doesn't believe in EV at all. Most of the electrified models have ICE variants and for instance for Peugeot and Citroën, they are still believing so much in their PureTech gas engines and still believe these are the future.
As Toyota
@@paulo3564 Toyota believes in hydrogen
I hate saying this, but a lot of people are blaming the French for the mismanagement of the brands
@@ДмитрийАндрианов-й4ы Ukraine loves the Mirai😊
They do not belive anything, they know they lost and tryng to milk ICE and invest in Chinese EV. They know that Chinese manufacturing is 10 years in front of them and they can not keep up. It is a Cashgrab before the end. The Winter is Coming.
Sam, the expression is “never apologize, never explain!” This was the expression of Louis XIV of France, the Sun King!
No bailouts for the auto industry. Tell the auto industry and their supporters in Congress to not even think of asking for a bailout. Not again. Never again.
Same goes for tesla. Let it fail
The Stellantis group was a conglomeration of brands that had often struggled - grouping them together was supposed to reduce costs etc through part sharing and the like but actually has just seemed to create a company without values that is seeing the worst of each company become dominant - and it is entirely the fault of leadership
The CEOs of these legacy auto companies are enjoying their own demise with their bloated salaries. Huge technological changes always bring chaos as the winners and losers are sorted out.
Thank you, Sam. I believe, as you have stated on numerous occasions, the ICE manufacturers have been caught sleeping at the wheel. The incredible speed and development of EVs and accelerated acceptance by the motoring public have created this confusion. As you rightly pointed out, they Stellantis are like a rabbit in the headlights, frozen to the spot.
VW and Stellantis need a merger and start making Hybrids EV stats. All those workers out of a job will destroy the economy. No one will even have money for Chinese EV.
If they were really asleep, how does one explain why major automakers are postponing EV investments, production, and targets? GM, Ford, Stellantis, VW, and Volvo are all pulling back from BEV production targets because the demand is weak and transition is much slower than they projected.
Reportedly European companies are now putting pressure on European governments to relax some of the BEV mandates because they cannot meet the targets. European new car sales is incredibly weak and is slowing down. Europe hasn't recovered pre-pandemic sales levels.
Stellantis is a European-based company with a dozen brands in their portfolio. They don't care if some brands survive or not. US has too many dealerships as well. And you should look at August European sales. Not just BEVs, the entire car market is struggling. Post-pandemic purchases are over, inventory has normalized, economic outlook is weak, and sales are rapidly slowing down. It's why Stellantis and VW are talking about production cuts.
Jeep drivers deserve their very own risk profile in the actuarial data
Absolutely all Western and Japanese automakers are experiencing a sharp decline in sales and profits. Everyone is looking for reasons, blaming each other, making plans to get out of the crisis. But everyone knows the main reason that starts with the letter "C" but is afraid to admit that this roller can no longer be stopped. At the last auto show in Chengdu, there were almost no people at the Mercedes stand (!). Visitors were interested in completely different cars. This year, the oldest and most authoritative Swiss auto show in the world announced that it will not be held in 2025. Why do you think that?
No seems to notice ALL retail and entertainment sales have stayed down since COVID.
@@davis.fourohfour Can you explain why China is on the rising?
@@davis.fourohfour How can you explain China rising?
?? Toyota had record sales in 2023. Also number one in worldwide sales for 1st half of 2024.
@@paulsi1234 Yes, you're right. Toyota is exception
It is well known in Singapore that these brands produces crappy cars of high cost and low quality. No logical person ever buys them in Singapore. Their reputation is so bad.
SO does BMWs, Mercedes/VG/Audi.
Stellantis should have never take USA companies like Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge and RAM on board. Cut those brands lose, they are going down.
Fiat (Grand Panda), Peugeot and Citroën are making a lot of good and affordable EV's for the EU market already.
Brands like Peugeot and Citroën wont sell in the USA or Australia, coarse those countries people thing that every car needs to be a huge 3.5 metric ton Ute.
In the EU, most sold cars are half that size, polute less and cost less.
Self inflicted wounds by both Stellantis and the dealers driven by greed.
Been going on since the 80s.
@@user-fb8jb5yi6g well yeah, theres inflation, they blew way past inflation numbers over the past 4 years and increased prices by 50%, and didn't enter into the NEW Union contract until last year, which gives a 20% pay increase over 6 years, or 3% a year. The rest of the money went into upper management massive pay increases, and stock buy backs and dividends. If your own work force can't afford your own product, your doing something wrong.
Jeep JK started around the $36k mark.
Current model is what? Closer to $80k
That’s why I bought a Biac BJ 40. Half the price. Cheers from South Africa
Seems that when a company is in trouble, the CEO gets a big bonus.
If you are not Chinese brand, you are 🔥
Europe has over a million auto manufacturer’s jobs. If all these people lost their job, the economy will collapse and no one can afford even Wuling.
@@myhome772the UK has proven you can still lose virtually all of you manufacturing base and people do something else for a living. Automation has replaced mass employment in the car industry and as soon as Elon builds his robot factory the remaining jobs will disappear as well.
The Chinese build BEV’s better and cheaper than anyone else and legacy brand accumulators like Stellantis will stick their brands on Chinese EV’s just to survive. Only tariffs will save them in the short term, but as soon as BYD build a giga factory in Europe, then it’s game over.
@@dennishaggerty463 Oh nooooooo. I like EV but in the US, sometimes you drives out to the middle of nowhere for camping, snowboarding, or hiking. And EV just isn’t that great for the tasks. Maybe I shouldn’t have sold my Toyota stocks so fast.
@@myhome772 The funny thing is that Toyota still makes money and still has a high valuation despite being low-tech within EVs. Toyota claim to have advanced battery tech, but we all know they don't. They field 1 full EV and its outdated compared to most of its competitors. If Toyota were any good in EVs, we would know.
That said, Toyota can still sell large volumes of hybrids, PHEVs and ordinary ICE cars and still make money. Their valuation on the stock market testifies to this. That is because their vehicles are reliable and of good quality tbh.
This is where Stellantis is in trouble: it is neither advanced in EVs, and their hybrids/ICE cars are poor in quality. Peugeot and Citroen is literal industrial garbage and in fact even worse than VW ICE/hybrid-cars. That is why their time is up.
Since Stellantis shares tech internally, i am going to assume their american brands has the some trouble as their French/Italian brands.
@@TheLordexilius You are right, aren’t they making the BZ3 with BYD? I would be happy with a Prime honestly. Hope they don’t all go up in flames. Just the other day a Tesla exploded in New York. Some poor guy got a piece of the Tesla in him. I hope we will be okay.
Soon the Chinese won't need foreign badges. Their won quality will win them market share.
There is no doubt there are too many car makers in the market now with all the new Chinese entrants . Legacy makers need to slim down , sell assets , consolidate , innovate and rebuild if they are to survive . They need a refresh and rebrand . Some could still make it.
Do you really believe they would even consider being too overpriced, too many brands, slim down etc, everything is everybody else's fault from government figures to CEOs somehow never make mistakes, if they thought like you they would be competing with China peer to peer
Too late for legacy auto. They lack the ev infrastructure and IP. They're gonna all go like Kodak.
If you haven't cultivated an EV line with the express purpose of that line becoming profitable, and eventually taking over, a Legacy Auto company has now run out of road.
The only three legacy brands that have done this, or at the very least given it a serious attempt, are Volvo, Hyundai, and Kia. Some more legacy brands exist as EVs, but those are Chinese wolves in sheep clothing.
The rest... Imagine a bunch of airplanes on the top of a cliff. They start 100 yd away from the cliff edge. The planes themselves require a minimum speed of 60 mph to achieve liftoff.
Volvo is at 45 mph. Close, but just not quite there yet. They might end up falling over the cliff edge for that final shove.
Hyundai and Kia are at 50 mph and accelerating.
The rest are at 15-20 mph with 20 yards to go. It is impossible.
@@wertigon Agree - but note that Volvo is a Chinese company now! Of the old-line brands, seems Hyundai and Kia are the only ones making the transition effectively.
Aren't these dealers the ones who only want to sell $100K+ Jeeps and RAMs?
The problem with their puretech engine is horrible.
But cleaver name. Sounds like a more realistic engine name is putridtech.
Stalantis is going to be one of the first to go.
Oh no Viking, say it ain’t so. Now demand for RAV4 Prime EV will be even worse. I’ll never get to get a RAV4 Prime EV.
Great car. Got mine December 2023. Was at the dealer, Grants Pass, Oregon, yesterday and they just got in a new one.
The Chrysler group has been in decline for decades, that is why they were up for sale, Stellantis was formed after PSA took a huge risk and bought them as part of the FCA group. It was assumed that the new members of the Stellantis group would work together for joint prosperity. Chrysler group through AWU were never satisfied with this outcome, and constantly rebelled against every decision, they wanted things to stay as they were, so it has come to pass that their decline continues. Stellantis is so tired of this, no wonder they responded to the dealers in disrespectful terms.
Watched a video from a car repair shop who was continuously working on a low mileage Ram 1500. Radiator, head gaskets, water pump...in that order
We have an Opel/Vauxhall Mokka E. It drives good as we expected it. But the electic components/capabilities are just bad for that high price (it starts at 37.000 € in germany. It was much lower 3 years ago). Newer models arent that much better in basics like battery precondition, limit SoC to 80%, etc. Its a huge disappointment. Charging speed in winter conditions is just laughable (20-30 kW)
Jeep has pushed out too many fully loaded pricey cars plus the new Grand Cherokee is too big in size too close to the Wagnoneer. Most Jeep sales have always been V6 models, Wrangler, Grand Cherokee.
First thumbs up! Thanks for everything Elec Vike!
My pleasure!
Sad story… I am a 7x Jeep owner. We need better management.
All I see when driving by the dealerships is a massive inventories. Here we truck owners avoid this brand unless you plan on trading it in after the warranty is up.Pure junk.
Stellantis being described as "responsible for…" is hilarious. More like totally vacillating, undecided and unable to FOCUS to the point of being "IRresponsible".
Jeeps have always looked crappy, driven crappy and have been crap quality. At some point advertising will stop working.
Maybe Stellantis knows something we don't? Could be an attempt to extract as much as possible it all collapses. Better leave someone else to hold the bag.
Sam, you were bang on when you criticised them for chasing short term profits. Dead cat bounce.
Thanks to Stellantis. Now I see both pro-fuel car RUclipsrs and pro-EV RUclipsrs are making the same topics: How bad Tavares and Stellantis are.
Do they think that cars will go up ? Have a fire sale.
Stunning daily news about legacy automakers hitting brick walls, driving over cliffs, leaving the road... day of reckoning is at hand.
In Europe Peugeot, Citroen sell okay. Even so they are junk.
They are junk because of there French engineers
Who needs Stellantis cars?
I like Dodge but it is not available in my country.
Who needs byd cars?
Peugeot and Opel really started to focus on style and design - unfortunately in an era when the masses have started to focus on price, reliability and fuel economy.
Peter Rawlinson just laughing about the salary question...
Imagine dealers complaining about increased profits.
It feels like the age of mass car ownership is ending
I disagree. Robotaxi will do well, but for families, you need your own car.
Several years ago Stellantis invested a tonne of money in geothermal lithium from Vulcan Energy. They are committed in some way to EVs.
Stellantis is too big, too many similar brands competing in same market, not a lot of investment, lots of old products (particularly in US). It is also big on getting government handouts. But many governments now pushing back. Chinese will kill them. Expect Jeep to be sold in next 5 years. Jeep has had many owners. AMC, which went broke, bought by Chrysler which went broke several times before being bought by Stellantis and now suspect will be sold on again.
In the US, Stellantis tried to make Jeep into a premium brand, raising their prices of their top models to over $100,000 USD, while not increasing the quantity to match - basically putting lipstick on a pig.
In the process, they left their former mostly young adventure type core customers behind. They don’t want all the bling and can’t afford it either.
Add to that over production and the result is large numbers of expensive vehicles sitting on dealer lots racking up flooring costs on vehicles that can’t be sold. If Stellantis doesn’t start giving massive rebates soon, you will see dealers going bankrupt and closing.
Stellantis just make their cars more affordable and we all buy them.
In my opinion FCA was doing much better, since the take over of the french with stellantis the whole company looks like a joke to me.😅
Bottom line: Stellantis products are not selling. 30% price increase over 4 years; a recall a month? They will sell off the Jeep name and maybe Maserati.
STOP MAKING CARS! 😂😂😂
NO CEO is worth more than a couple of million in salary, per year. Stellantis’ line up of vehicles is old and tired and should go bankrupt, they’re not needed, with Tesla, Rivian and Lucid filling that space.
Manufacturers trying to get rid of dealerships so the manufacturers can move into direct sales? Produce in high volume an inferior product and overload their dealer network, creating huge problems for dealers.
the FCA tie up wasn't great but at least there was some progress. Now this guy is wrecking even Jeep!
In america, people view it as a foreign brand now, which it is.
They're built in the USA at USA located factories, purchased by citizens living in and paying taxes in the USA at dealerships which pay taxes in the USA, sold by employees making a salary in the USA, supporting their families, spending all of their money and paying taxes in the USA.....
What were the actual short term decisions they made in order to make that money ? Eg taking cash from Italian govt not building factory ....
Jeep looks like it’s done. Finished. 20k to 1.6k units sold is not sustainable. Too expensive. Magic vehicle though
Maybe they want the dealership and some brands to die.
Even the name puts you off
Does sound like a nasty skin rash or a menacing Sci-Fi city in a post-apocalyptic nightmare world.
Just blame the EU for failure of NOKIA ... and Stellantis 😉
I have always wanted a Jepp. I almost bought one on a few occasions.
The new Jeeps are too bloated. The reviews are not good. They are not reliable. Just ask any tow truck driver.
Stellantis is a virtual wax museum of beloved historic brands that banded together because they could not stand alone. This delayed the inevitable, but it couldn't change the reality that none of these brands---together or individually--can profitably create the next generation electric vehicles. The only rational thing that can be done is to milk the cash cows and then sell them off. The dealerships cannot be saved.
A new British Leyland? The sadness is they have some great brands and it would be tragic if the likes of Fiat or Citroen were to disappear…
These electric vehicles are ridiculous
I think they will sink faster than VW. I mean this morning I saw a new 2024 Tiguan. Guys, VW is in a huge huge trouble...
Not sure how old the film footage is but the lined-up jeeps look like they come from the cast of Miami Vice. So unless this is a vintage car dealership I can completely understand why nobody is buying these
Nobody wants an electric Dodge charger😂Stellantis is done in the US. Not to mention jeep decided to move up market into the luxury segment and they aren’t selling. Dealers still have 2023 vehicles on the lot and 2025 cars are out now.
imagine Xpeng and BYD get Alfa and Maserati...
Imagine xpeng and byd make comparable models and sink both alpha and maserati
@@Z-add VW is begging XPeng and Rivian for advice, imagine that!
Maserati seems to be the only one Stellantis' true luxury car brand, so I think Stellantis will not sell it.
Thanks to the above comments. My predictions are 1. VW will get Xpeng 2. BYD is buying Stellantis' American facilities, not Stellantis' brands
@@undisclosedthai actually i second your comment BYD will buy Stellantis american brands and factories, rebadge BYD cars into a Dodge or Chrysler or Jeep and EU as Opel
So, how by the same measure, do you square Barra's pay and whooooo, Rawlins pay?
Some minor relief for Us dealers. Lot finance costs are reduce as Fed take rates down 0.5%. But in the scheme of things, its small beers.
I think the comments you are making are somewhat misleading. Stellantis is having serious issues in the US but they are growing in Europe. Its a tale of 2 worlds indeed. And their US problems with mainly Jeep has one name: Bronco. To just make comments about the Jeep brand without first highlighting that in 2021 Ford introduced again the Bronco line quite successfully eating Jeep's cake is being highly alarmist. Frankly, although I don't live in the US anymore, I never saw the Jeep brand as a huge seller but more as a highly successful adventure brand. Perhaps that is as I owned a 1984 Bronco when I lived there.
Jeep problems in one word = overpriced.
@@tyharris9994and unreliable
Summary- Vehicles are high, lots are full, people are holding on to their vehicles longer and the dealerships will eventually reduce prices.
Your welcome.
That is Staellantis' problem. Despite what everyone thinks about Volkswagen, at least they have the MEB electric car platform now and the first models with the second-generation Scalable Systems Architecture (SSA) platform will start arriving in 2025, which will eventually replace every Volkswagen Group model by 2030.
What exactly are these short term decisions then and why are they reckless?
So increasing prices and therefore unit profits at the expense of volume.
You can get away with this maybe if you're a prestige make (Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Porsche, Mercedes) but not if you're selling Jeeps.
Jeep is an American icon, an American should be running jeep, and if this guy doesn’t understand it well look what happened you need to be born and raised here to understand so people are going to say what they’re going to say
I think since the time of Marchionne they had to imvest in innovation but they been focusing on profit only and now things come ou
I have a Stellantis EV. It’s not a ground-up EV, it’s adapted from an ICE platform. It was cheap on my company scheme 2 years ago and is a nice car and has been reliable and very easy to run. However, I won’t get another one.
They are 40% more expensive to lease than 2 years ago for the same model - probably due to the horrendous depreciation. They are still turning out ICE based cars masquerading as EV’s, not a lot has changed since 2021 and whilst some cheaper cars look better value, I’ll be going for a ground-up EV next time.
Their strategy seems to be saturation across many brands and many models, nearly all with stratospheric list prices, which are then massively discounted. This isn’t sustainable and not at all surprised some of the brands are suffering hugely.
I drive a 2012 Chrysler minivan that I got used. The Chrysler minivan design team is world class; they have been quite innovative even though the minivan market has shrunk; unfortunately, the prices have shot up and minivans are no longer an affordable option for working class people. The Pacifica PHEV is an excellent vehicle though likely to be eclipsed soon by BYD and Tesla (and even Toyota, which is planning a Sienna Prime PHEV). Jeep and RAM are still profitable and very popular in the U.S., but their prices are high. Don't know what's going to happen with Stellantis and Chrysler but they'd better start selling some lower cost innovative cars and trucks soon.
Tesla sales are down 50%. The f u talking about?
Sounds like Boeing…
Anyone remember when Citroen made charismatic, quirky and characterful but amazingly comfortable or very cheap cars.
Anyone remember when Fiat were stylish, not under Stellantis the aren't.
Anyone remember when Peugeot made staid, reliable good quality cars.
Anyone remember when Alfas were a passionate dream of opera in metal and Maserati were proper class.
Anyone remember when Jeeps were tough and functional.
Now they are all just shoddy Vauxhalls in a fancy dress.
Going electric destroyed these companies.
Are you optimistic about one legacy car maker? If so which one? Are they all doomed?
Stellantis, and Jeep and Dodge in particular, are way overpriced and horrendous reliability, and dealers are marking them up well above the MSRP prices. Is it any wonder they are failing?
Dogs? LOL
@@undisclosedthai I hate self-correcting when I don’t catch it. Dodge!
Morning bro I've not
Why are you showing clip after clip of Maserati cars in a video about Chrysler corporation, which sells cars under the Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep brands?
Stock up dealer lots and let them figure out how to sell over priced junk no one wants. 😄
It’s pretty obvious. Make it cheap junk 😂
Why, are cars made in automated factories in China; is somehow a bad thing for the west, but the plastic clothes pegs sourced from the automated clothes peg factory adjacent to the car factory, is ok????
GM in 1980: Japanese cars cant compete
GM in 1990: German cars cant compete
GM in 2000: Korean cars cant compete
GM in 2010: EV cars cant compete.
GM 2024: We dont know what went wrong.
They deserve to go out of business. 😢
If you actually go read the open letter by 3 of Stellantis's dealers what they complain about is not enough offerings in terms of new designs. Take Ford in comparison. It has offered two new light trucks - the Maverick and the F150 Lightning BEV - they can't sell the Lightning BEV but the hybrid Maverick is sold out. Hybrids are popular; BEVs are not even with massive Government subsidies of up to $10,000 per truck(depending on the US state) - typically a 15-20% of the Vehicle cost. WIthout these subsidies; BEVs would be nowhere. Germany has ended BEV subsidies and BEV sales have dropped by 30%. Stellanties dears want hybrids; not BEVs.
I've had 4 Jeep Wranglers over the years and my present one is now 10 years old. The new 4 door Rubicon can pull 5000 pounds which I can use and I've been looking on and off, considering getting a 2024. But looking at prices? The average one is around $65,000 and even with incentives and discounts, it's in the fifties. I'll just keep my old Jeep with these kinds of prices. I can easily afford even a $65k vehicle (considering also getting a Lotus Emira) but I won't pay that for a Wrangler. If prices don't come down, I simply won't be buying one. I'll watch the used prices but if they stick high, I won't buy one of these either.
I love the look and concept of the ev Dodge Charger and the Ram Charger, but I'd like to see less stupid huge bonuses to STLA fat cats and less closing American plants.
Sam tell them to go back in time and NOT discontinue the Jeep Cherokee the most beloved vehicle in my town growing up and then discontinued it and replaced it with the tiny piece of shit not-off-road Jeep Compass or patriot or whateverthefuck they called it … start there, and YES recalls and lemons are an issue too in my experience .. but at the end of the day what is up with the products? They’re trying to charge Mercedes Range Rover prices for a brand that is not on that level .. Jeep has the most iconic brand in America there is no reason why they shouldn’t be selling a ton of vehicles!
Jeep have not looked after their customers and neither have Dodge/Ram. They are reaping their harvest. I have just had a look at the large stock of full-fat Range Rovers at my local dealer and they are stickered at £130,000 and above. This is another company that makes less reliable vehicles than average and do not ensure that their vehicles are repaired promptly and do not own their major design and manufacturing issues. They are the next to suffer. I have bought four new big Range Rovers plus many other Land Rover and Jaguar vehicles over the years and have been badly let down by the company several times, as have so many others. I’m never going to spend my hard earned money with JLR again and I advise everyone else not to buy their products either if they want to sleep at night.
Again, legacy car makers: your consumers need the option of affordable BEVs with decent quality, range and charge capability. It’s your stakeholder that want huge profits per sale and your oil lobby friends that don’t like to shift away from oil. I’m sure you remember the days profit came from sales volume, brand approval from value for money and marketing was used to let consumers know you had the solution for their problem.
Golf cart scam
inflation is inflation. there is nothing that anyone can do about it on the production side of the equation. on the consumer side of the equation there is plenty that can be done. consumers do not have to buy and they are not. if people need a car they don't have to buy a new one. they can buy an inexpensive, used toyota and they are. new car dealers? good luck!
All these car makers moved upmarket in order to try and avoid the Chinese coming in at the low end. The reality is upon us that there is only so much room for so many car brands. The Chinese are coming whether the US Government demands tariffs or not. All of the car brands at the upper tier of the market will be at war with each other for business and many are going to go under within 3-4 years. Big time names are going away or going to become sub-brands of the surviving big fish.