I wasn't particularly surprised when Anthony took the pro-eugenics stance & advocated for euthanizing all poor people, but I still enjoyed the debate. Could've done without all those n-words too.
Great debate with Anthony Fantano, Destiny, but you could've had the good sense to end the chat before Melon took 20 minutes to slowly read his list of favorite racial slurs...
@@bargaingoldandsilver Fantano once made a video explaining why he doesn't use racial slurs in his videos, even if they're in the title of an album or song. Since then, the main meme in his comment sections is that that's basically all he does. Edit: That article that painted him as being part of the RUclips alt-right didn't help, of course. It's been nothing but nazi jokes ever since.
@@bargaingoldandsilver I don't know the exact history of the meme but every time Fantano makes a review people start commenting on the video and how they liked or why they disagreed with him but then they say something about how Fantano said something really gross. like talking about the Holocaust and stuff like that
Did you really have to leave in the part where Anthony read the first 5 chapters of mein kampf out loud as the german national anthem played in the background.
Destiny... Come on, you had to leave in the 35.2 minute racist rant about race realism and the falsifiable god. This is a inner subjective reality being messed with. Don't let fantano go on these crazy rants. Bad PR.
Businesses: Refuse to give raises to their employees for years Government: Raises minimum wage to make sure people can afford the basics Businesses: shockedpikachuface
yep and fantano is correct here, the left isnt really homogeneous in its views and right-wingers do a better job falling in line under a populist authority like trump.
@@Snobbishbumpkin Historically right-wingers have been better at organizing and falling in line under anti-communist, red-baiting propaganda in America. They've done this over the past 100+ years. Democrats in America are right-wing. Nobody disputes this
@@Snobbishbumpkin you think obama was a communist, you're a living meme. He even admitted his policies look like Regean. The complete opposite of your cobbled-together from youtube world view. Get out of the echo chamber before its too late.
The problem with arguing socialism vs capitalism, the market VS people's lived experiences is that you are arguing ideology, you can't teach or argue empathy to someone like destiny so he's probably just never going to get it.
@@p.chuckmoralesesquire3965 Exactly, as much as I like Destiny (when he's exposing alt rights) he simply cares too much about winning and I refuse to believe that someone like him can so much inflicting thoughts. It's crazy how left wing he can get when debating someone from the right and how right wing he can get when debating some leftist.
I would have considered myself a hardcore capitalist too about 2 years back, but Destiny you taught me how to honestly engage with topics and when I started honestly engaging with critiques of capitalism (mainly from Richard Wolfe and Ben Bergis) my mind started changing. I credit you with teaching me how to honestly engage with idea, so I hope you start honestly engaging with critiques of capitalism.
MifBif I think you’re kind of blind to what the dilemma actually is, destiny knows the ailments of current capitalism but he doesn’t believe that capitalism should be revoked but reformed, while tons of lefties say they want to kill the rich at every turn.
Epistemology Philosophy that's a bit reductive. Most lefties probably just want to shed capitalism for something more egalitarian. The people who say "eat the rich" are probably 5% serious, 20% larping, and 75% memeing too close to the sun.
Well, there's not really a way to arrive at being a socialist purely through "honestly engaging." There's a heavily emotional component to becoming socialist; just take all the intelligent, compassionate conservatives who aren't socialists, after all. I mean, conservatives graduate from top universities all over the world and some are huge philanthropists, so why aren't they socialist? Because they don't have the core values that are necessary to lead you further left. That's how I see it, anyways.
@@epistemologyphilosophy7791 No I completely get what destiny is saying, it's just convoluted. Like he has a multitude of ways to solve wage equality through capitalism, when you can just democratize the work place and allow workers to unionize. Why jump through so many hoops just so that we can still call ourselves capitalist and be ethical. I do not understand why he wants to he capitalist so bad when he can see the flaws as you say. It doesn't make sense.
@@andrewteague114 I mean I kind of disagree. I think if you honestly engage with the ideas you'll become emotional, but that's because the way you viewed the world gets shattered. That can be traumatic and also the realities of our world are sad so yeah it's emotional but it isn't irrational. It seems like people think that rationality and emotions are opposites or don't correlate. Which I think they can be that way but they also can coincide and with leftist ideas they do coincide. At least that's my view.
Its a pleasure to listen to fantano discussing politics and social topics, as well as music. But god, whats with destinys almost fanatic believe in markets...they do work in certain circumstances, but in reality they often fail and need help from outside - markets are not some holy construct, but a kind of social system between people. They are no magic that can fix every situation. And regarding his anti union stance, take a look in the history of unions in Europe, etc. The same arguments were used there and guess what: unions helped fighting for workers rights and dealing with the fact that they were replaceable. I feel like some education on things that were already tried somewhere else would not hurt us americans...and now people in western europe have unions and are better of, than they were before. Only because they fought for their rights.
> Supposedly wanting to find the most correct position on anything > Intentionally trying to purge a portion of his audience by being mean to it instead of arguing with it Something tells me this is a feels based position. Smh
aronchai yea come on dude, he argues with fucking fascists. Would it really be that crazy to actually expect destiny to get into meat of the argument when it comes to socialism/ Co ops/ post capitalist societies? I would recommend watching vaush reply to destiny's "capitalist arc" video. I think it encapsulates why lefties get a little bent out of shape when it comes to destiny.
TheEsotericZebra I guess that's fair when talking about his chat room and stuff. But the issue is that lefties feel that he doesn't actually engage with their ideas. He is very knowledgeable about capitalism but anything pertaining to actual leftism he seems very resistant to actually put in the work to understand. So he ends up creating weird lefty strawmen to yell at and rant against. He likes to claim that he is unemotional about everything but when it comes to capitalism, he seems to be as emotionally invested in it as socialists are invested in things like co-ops.
Destiny already said he won't do it. He's too much of a coward. The only ones he's likes to debate are dumb rightoids who he knows he can easily defeat and score easy points against. Destiny is to neolibs what Dave Rubin is to rightoids.
Destiny keeps appealing to this fantasy that if we could just educate people somone will create jobs for them when the exact opposite has been evidenced over the last 10 years. Students cant pay their student loans because we dont need 1000 managers Destiny.
Yes, educated for the corporate pipeline kind of education. Gotta make sure your slaves learn how to hit the rocks first! The system in the US, is almost like extortion. "We pay your education then your soul belongs to us, otherwise back to eating shit because your education isn't "marketable"."
@@Snobbishbumpkin Oh, sweet summer child. The fact that you frame everything as a corporate venture for the benefit of the economy, shows exactly what you think of education, and how disconnected from the corporate world itself you are. Oh, so many jobs, for people to just work and have their labor exploited since their teens, for the lowest bidder, or else you die. What a lovely life full of choices. So many new jobs, so many managers, and so many companies selling you the dream of delayed gratification to make sure their industry is fueled by your sunk cost fallacy. But then, the world changes and doesn't need you as much as it used to, and then you've lost your wager. Too bad it was "your" choice to believe in "our" dreams. What a lovely free world this is! That's clearly a sign of economic progress, right? Sorry, but you need more education on economics, first and foremost. Next, maybe you should look at why all these countries with free education _don't_ have the massive gaping holes the US has.
@@Snobbishbumpkin Do you not see the problem in your thinking? You're literally telling people to get educated _so that_ they find work. Because they _need_ to do that. You don't want educated people, you want _trained_ people. Because that's your framing. When you think like that, it's all about how workers can offer their labor, not how you can maximize the well-being of your society. Blue collar is completely irrelevant to this. A burger-flipper, a manager and an engineer, still get _trained_ to produce rather than educated. And I'm not even an US citizen. I've seen all sides of the grass, though, and the grass in the US is just rotten. I've seen both academia and the corporate world, on all sides, and one thing is clear: People that know better, wouldn't bet on the US. People don't want to move there, work there, or raise a family there. Though, they sure as hell would open a business to get some of that labor exploitation tax-cut mullah. I wonder why that is. It's almost as if the US is a capitalist dystopia... It's funny how in your rant, you completely forget Europe in favor of China just to score some "red scare" points for yourself. Mighty fucking brave there, hoss. USA is not number 1. It isn't. It's a dystopia. You can name a couple of "prestigious" universities, but why do you think they're at all more important than others? Seems like you've never seen much outside your bubble. They really aren't that great, sorry to burst your bubble. They aren't. They're just universities like any other, but with funds and branding. That's it. Weak-ass indoctrinated exceptionalist arguments. Seriously, you don't know shit about economics, you're just ranting on what feels good for you. You keep thinking that the size of the US is at all relevant in these issues, or that you think that somehow you have a monopoly on innovation, which couldn't be further from the truth. You're clinically ignorant, and your american exceptionalism is showing. I'm not taking this discussion any further if that's all you got.
@mayrana2 If capitalists can just move their industries to 3rd world and countries and could automate every single job why is unemployment still at an all time low
Labor cost of a vehicle that cost around $25,000, which is the average cost of a vehicle in the US, is around 10%, that's $2500 per vehicle. And that percentage will decrease as the cost of the vehicle rises. So keeping these jobs in the US doesn't double the price of the vehicle as Destiny estimates. Just to drive home this point on labor cost, Australia forced McDonald's to pay its workers $16.80 per hour and the cost of a Big Mac is 60 cents more than in the US which pays its workers $7.50.
Great point, I always made this argument to my coworkers in a restaurant when there was a min wage ballot initiative here - they just believed the right wing BS despite being otherwise pretty left. I tried to explain the math, unless minimum wage labor is 100% of the cost of the product, it will be cheaper for us with a minimum wage raise. They would just dismiss it or at best look blankly lol
Democratising the workforce solves the specific problems relating workers issues within a workplace like pay, conditions etc. Worker cooperatives would still need regulating like any other company, your arguing against a straw man destiny
Fantano I understand your points, but you didn't have to call Destiny the N-word repeatedly for 20 minutes straight. Also Destiny got destroyed in this debate.
i'm too early. Workplace democracy is not "all workers should be managers because all workers are smart". it is all workers should be involved in the decision making during the labour process, they have a say in what their wages are, they have a say in who their superiors are etc in order to avoid exploitation.
why would you want superiors democraticly elected in a company? That would result in incompetent leadership, which would then result in the company going bankrupt.
Its bot exploitation if its voluntary.If they do t like wage or conditions they could always not work and starve or join with other people and start a voluntary commune in which they all help each ither and none are forced to democracy which is slavery.
Honestly Fantano did a great job of outlining the basic dimensions of most social dem/democratic socialist positions. To the extent that this reflects the views of the 13 year old leftists that are triggering actual grown-ass , currently a father destiny; who knows, Destinty thinks we can just whip up the neolib dream of a controlled labor economy where we just force every kid to be forced into a xanned out white collar job through relentless college prep style education. Children right now are stressed as fuck already. That's why so many of the' are so fucking left AND vocal about it on social media currently. They see that they are being fed into a broken labor system where even a college degree doesn't lead to the kind of employment which can keep folks in a stable situation. Right now he's just coming off as neolib shapiro. He thinks his basically 70% externally contingent current wealth is somehow based on him being a VERY GOOD SMART BOY. There are so many versions his life where a minor quirk of fate going just a little worse would have resulted in him being in one of the jobs he considers beneath the dignity of being compensated enough to live without out fear of destitution. So funny, this clout shit.
@Jacque A “Soc-Dem” who dick-rides Biden? 😆 He literally said in a recent video that he doesn’t like lefties like Kyle Kulinski and others, because they “criticize Biden all the time.” 🤦♂️ That’s partisan-hackery at its finest.
Things like a living wage, interest rate limits and rent control are not being advocated because they "feel good", Steven. They are being advocated because they do *work* over here in Europe, Steven... Who is the one arguing from feelings here? It seems that you are the one trying to uphold the sanctity of the capitalist market - trying circumvent price controls at any cost. Btw, right now the lack of a living wage leads to millions of Americans needing to resort to welfare despite working full time. How will you justify taxpayers paying for the shortcomings of private employers? EDIT: Well, apparently Destiny does not believe that corporations should have to own up to any responsibility towards the workers who reproduce their very existence. Spoken like a true neoliberal...
I wouldn't have conceded in the save jobs point. Saving jobs that produce relevant products or offer relevant services adds to the independence of a nation and prevents corporations from taking advantage of workers internationally. This also empowers foreign workers to advocate for their rights.
I know Destiny knows a lot about music, but his comments on the "musical foundation" of artists is a really common criticism of experimental music. Not everyone is going to like Captain Beefheart, or something even more outsider like the Shaggs, but even if you don't personally enjoy what artists like those have done, it is undeniable that they had an effect on the music that came after them by virtue of their sheer uniqueness. What Melon said towards the end is really relevant: sometimes an education can be restrictive. Breaking known rules is not the same as creating without knowing any rules at all. It's like the difference between Picasso (learned rules and broke them) and Basquiat (said fuck rules in general).
Well that is a really dumb take. A vote for Bernie is already in and of itself splitting the vote since Biden is destroying everyone in the polls (although I'm aware this may change as it gets to the debates and such). Andrew Yang is pretty well on board with everything Bernie Sanders is, he is younger (the parabolic growth of technology is going to sledgehammer everyone in the face, youth is important), and as a bonus he focuses on automation from an informed position as a threat that needs to be addressed. His policy plan, UBI, is something pretty much anyone that understands what neural networks are, what they can do, and how they threaten to displace people faster than employing new people will support. I dunno, I guess I just like the idea of making an informed decision of who I vote for (I supported Andrew Yang by randomly happening upon videos of him before I knew there was a weird internet cult surrounding him) rather than voting for someone out of some duty to just do it (what you're suggesting people do by voting for Sanders).
A comment on Destiny's last point about retraining. The success rate for these programs is roughly 17%, basically wasted resources. Most people who need to be moved from an industry being automated are too old to teach, the human brain loses its elasticity over time. That's why we need heavy subsidies, if not socialization, of things necessary for life. Healthcare, agriculture, and housing markets will not survive this shift.
Why does destiny think every single person in america can have a high skill specified job or even has the capacity to be trained in something highly skilled?
Tyler Weis I think capitalism is his biggest blindspot. So many of his thoughts on this seem to rely on this weird idea that all these negatives from capitalism are not inherent to capitalism. He seems to think that we are just not "doing it right". Destiny needs to realize that's all these externalities are a feature, not a bug.
So if you dont have marketable skills its capitalism fault.No one is entitled to a job or for they live ti be sustained.If they dont have a marketable skill they can just starve and die
@@ananthakrishnanma6650 wtf do u think human existence is? U have to take care of yourself or u die lol. Sure, we should take care of disabled ppl and ppl who can’t take care of themselves, but existence is work.
I fucking wish destiny was surrounded by more art philosophy people so that I could get the satisfaction of seeing his fucking. terrible takes challenged. NOBODY treats art as a valid subject of philosophy worthy of. Nuance. And it makes me so mad.
The closest destiny had got to a legitimate aesthetics conversation was that fuckin time that insufferable philosophy major who doesnt know shit about aesthetics decided it would be okay to argue art should only be allowed if it encourages good behavior by using anime hes never seen or analyzed as examples.
DeclaringPond 22 all i implied was that this was a nice solutions oriented debate based in reality, unlike many of his most popular debates. Chill fam.
@@boysoul2075 and all I said was that he chooses not to have people who can debate in reality. Also, there are higher demands for normal people than the bens and the sargons.
i recently started watching destiny he is super entertaining and while i dont agree with everything he says i like how he constructs really awesome arguments and has a dope was of elaborating his ideals. then i heard him talk about economics......... really pathetic
Destiny makes a fair point at 38:00. The problem with AOC’s advocacy of unions is that it’s inconsistent with (and undermined by) her stance on immigration. Unions can be extremely effective if labour demand is on par with or exceeds labour supply. It’s not the most efficient way to run an economy, but it’s a requirement for unions to be effective. If unions face competition from people who are willing to work for less, they will fail.
The frustrating problem with Destinys perspective and argument regarding unregulated wages and workers labor is, we have already lived that reality and it failed. Hence why we currently have a n antiquated federal labor laws.
Growing up with youtube my whole adolescent life, Anthony Fantano was like my political role model because before I knew about destiny and others like him (maybe before they were even around) he was like the only relatively 'political' left leaning person on the fucking platform. Thank you, Anthony, for basically being my safe space in the edgy right wing environment of youtube growing up. Forever
I haven't finished the whole talk, but I got irritated by the halfway mark by the lack of attention paid to the amount of political power the corporations etc are allowed to amass when you continue to socialize the losses and privatize the gains.
I wasn't particularly surprised when Anthony took the pro-eugenics stance & advocated for euthanizing all poor people, but I still enjoyed the debate. Could've done without all those n-words too.
That's a bruh moment.
lmao
lol
Lmao
lol
Bourgeoistiny was destroyed by Karlthony Marxtano in this debate.
The Virgin destiny vs the Chad busiest Marxism nerd
Great debate with Anthony Fantano, Destiny, but you could've had the good sense to end the chat before Melon took 20 minutes to slowly read his list of favorite racial slurs...
I came to this Comment section only for this meme
zlMayo can you enlighten me on this meme ?
@@bargaingoldandsilver Fantano once made a video explaining why he doesn't use racial slurs in his videos, even if they're in the title of an album or song. Since then, the main meme in his comment sections is that that's basically all he does. Edit: That article that painted him as being part of the RUclips alt-right didn't help, of course. It's been nothing but nazi jokes ever since.
@@bargaingoldandsilver I don't know the exact history of the meme but every time Fantano makes a review people start commenting on the video and how they liked or why they disagreed with him but then they say something about how Fantano said something really gross. like talking about the Holocaust and stuff like that
hi, this meme was ran into the ground months ago. welp, see you later.
This debate was interesting and all but did anyone else got weird vibes when Anthony started plugging his private 18+ Snapchat?
He has one?!?!?
@@goldminer8732 it's a meme
@@perplexingpantheon well now i wish i would of know this earlier would have saved me lots of time
Nate I thought he said private plus under 18 Snapchat... damn
Destiny got reviewed in this debate
Fuck, I knew someone else said this first lol
Guys i know it was obvious, i was extremely early and someone had to
Soft 6
Did you really have to leave in the part where Anthony read the first 5 chapters of mein kampf out loud as the german national anthem played in the background.
These are good comments
I get that this is a joke, but i don't know the context
@@AcidOverseer it's a thing people do in the comments section of Anthony's videos.
good one, haHAA
jussi using haHAA 4Weird 🤚
Destiny got rated 6/10 in this debate
@@lispinlunatic9205 nah a strong 9
3/7
Lispin Lunatic this reads like fanfic, unintentionally i assume?
Yeah, but it was a strong 6
I know this is a running gag in Destiny's videos' comments but can someone tell me its origins?
great review anthony, but there was no need to put it on a different channel so i couldnt find it. feels really convuluted
I'm already subbed to both his channels and this channel I'm surprised to see it happening but then again death grips is not music it's pure art.
This was one of my favorite debates until Destiny started asking melon about his sexual escapades while he was on tour
Destiny has a disease he can't help it
Anthony really challenged Destiny’s disdain for unskilled laborers. Good on him.
But good debate! I enjoyed the respectful tone.
Destiny... Come on, you had to leave in the 35.2 minute racist rant about race realism and the falsifiable god. This is a inner subjective reality being messed with. Don't let fantano go on these crazy rants. Bad PR.
I like this but I wanted to hear the death grips conversation
IT GOES IT GOES IT GOES
Arcarsenal YUH
@@bencfriedland
Fantano tied the cord and kicked the chair out from under Destiny in this debate
death grips is fucking garbage
@@gumquamare8461
agreed
This looks like a respectful conversation, not the destiny content I’m looking for
It only gets intense when Destiny is in charge.
Destiny gave MBDTF a 6/10 in this debate.
Had to Google. Would give Kanye's whole career a solid 6/10
@@tj12711 HUH?
@@tj12711 major cringe
@@R3DPandaLP For sure. A couple of decent songs but mostly cringey shit
Holy shit, I've waited for this day for so long.
Top 10 anime crossovers.
Top 1 anime crossover
Matt Mendoza this was really trippy to watch
Needledrop and destiny? Did Cenks nephews friend drop a mixxxtape?
0
Destiny: NOT GOOD
haHAA
@@PataJuzmo haha benis
@@ProgressiveWindsor 😂😂😂
Businesses: Refuse to give raises to their employees for years
Government: Raises minimum wage to make sure people can afford the basics
Businesses: shockedpikachuface
Thats it. Thats all the businesses do, they just pikachu face and continue on
We need a new floor
@@Snobbishbumpkin Right, we should rely on the market to make winners and losers, that's been working great.
@Donald Smith look at whole foods. $15 minimum now they cut everyone's hours and trying to overwork them
Not every business can afford to raise wages idiot
Destiny got professionally debated in this debate
more like WOKEest music nerd
for real tho quality reasoning from Fantano
yep and fantano is correct here, the left isnt really homogeneous in its views and right-wingers do a better job falling in line under a populist authority like trump.
@@p.chuckmoralesesquire3965 that's such bullshit. Progressives have become a religious cult. Filled with zeal minus logic and understanding
@@lo-fireviews2693 oh for sure buddy, tell me more. But all the same, the reality of trump proves me correct. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings
@@Snobbishbumpkin Historically right-wingers have been better at organizing and falling in line under anti-communist, red-baiting propaganda in America. They've done this over the past 100+ years. Democrats in America are right-wing. Nobody disputes this
@@Snobbishbumpkin you think obama was a communist, you're a living meme. He even admitted his policies look like Regean. The complete opposite of your cobbled-together from youtube world view. Get out of the echo chamber before its too late.
The mixing on this album is awful.
Worrying about unions being too powerful but not corporations.... that takes some serious mental dexterity to pull off.
its like the guys who worry that they're gonna get too buff when they start working out
@@oo0O08 lol that is funny since virtually no one that works out actually is or becomes "buff"
Destiny is the human manifestation of the anti-union propaganda videos that corporations like McDonalds and Walmart show their employees.
oo0O0 except that it’s not 100 people doing the weight lifting for him
i mean i think police union shave too much power i doubt youd disagree.
Destiny rated My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy a 6 in this debate
This fucking fan base I swear to God lmaooo
it deserved a 5
@@PotatoGawds you deserve a 5.
Destiny got red-flanneled in this debate
The problem with arguing socialism vs capitalism, the market VS people's lived experiences is that you are arguing ideology, you can't teach or argue empathy to someone like destiny so he's probably just never going to get it.
@@p.chuckmoralesesquire3965 Exactly, as much as I like Destiny (when he's exposing alt rights) he simply cares too much about winning and I refuse to believe that someone like him can so much inflicting thoughts. It's crazy how left wing he can get when debating someone from the right and how right wing he can get when debating some leftist.
These two seem to bounce really well off each other, I was looking forward to this and wasn’t disappointed
DTA Podcast would unironically be infinitely better, and I like Trihex.
Haven’t watched the debate yet but I hope to god Anthony brings up Death Grips
Destiny says they agree so I guess he changed his mind on them?
Literally the first thing thats brought up
I would have considered myself a hardcore capitalist too about 2 years back, but Destiny you taught me how to honestly engage with topics and when I started honestly engaging with critiques of capitalism (mainly from Richard Wolfe and Ben Bergis) my mind started changing. I credit you with teaching me how to honestly engage with idea, so I hope you start honestly engaging with critiques of capitalism.
MifBif I think you’re kind of blind to what the dilemma actually is, destiny knows the ailments of current capitalism but he doesn’t believe that capitalism should be revoked but reformed, while tons of lefties say they want to kill the rich at every turn.
Epistemology Philosophy that's a bit reductive. Most lefties probably just want to shed capitalism for something more egalitarian. The people who say "eat the rich" are probably 5% serious, 20% larping, and 75% memeing too close to the sun.
Well, there's not really a way to arrive at being a socialist purely through "honestly engaging." There's a heavily emotional component to becoming socialist; just take all the intelligent, compassionate conservatives who aren't socialists, after all. I mean, conservatives graduate from top universities all over the world and some are huge philanthropists, so why aren't they socialist? Because they don't have the core values that are necessary to lead you further left. That's how I see it, anyways.
@@epistemologyphilosophy7791 No I completely get what destiny is saying, it's just convoluted. Like he has a multitude of ways to solve wage equality through capitalism, when you can just democratize the work place and allow workers to unionize. Why jump through so many hoops just so that we can still call ourselves capitalist and be ethical. I do not understand why he wants to he capitalist so bad when he can see the flaws as you say. It doesn't make sense.
@@andrewteague114 I mean I kind of disagree. I think if you honestly engage with the ideas you'll become emotional, but that's because the way you viewed the world gets shattered. That can be traumatic and also the realities of our world are sad so yeah it's emotional but it isn't irrational. It seems like people think that rationality and emotions are opposites or don't correlate. Which I think they can be that way but they also can coincide and with leftist ideas they do coincide. At least that's my view.
Melon is so zen when he's talking. Definitely one of my fave RUclipsrs.
Damn didn't know this bridge even existed. Also Hasan in DGG chat-Crazy how quickly times have changed.
Im feeling a strong 7 on this debate
damn.
Trans...sition
I was wandering how long it would take for fantano to drop the n bomb in this debate, glad destiny picked up on that dog whistle
Oh so the n word is a dog whistle now too? LOL next you liberals are gonna try and tell me that the swastika is an anti-Semitic symbol 😂😂😂
@@ipadbossbaby4558 typical libtard always trying to smear a white nationalist as some kind of racist bigot. GAMERS RISE!
The right is starting to get better at comedy and it's making lefties nervous
.
Destiny was feelin a light to moderate Radiohead in this debate
Gerry Rafferty WWE Theme nah they didn't discuss death grips so it can't be a 10/10
*MC Ride got ignored in this debate*
I like how there are both fantano and destiny memes in the comments.
Destinys RUclips people got a 20% raise in this debate while his coffee boy was fired :(
Flamenc lol
10:27 The fantano countdown is perfectly executed. Well done boys
Anthony Fantano: 8.8/10
Destiny: 6/10
All things considered, very productive debate/conversation.
found the fantano simp.
@@Ace22 🤓
Its a pleasure to listen to fantano discussing politics and social topics, as well as music.
But god, whats with destinys almost fanatic believe in markets...they do work in certain circumstances, but in reality they often fail and need help from outside - markets are not some holy construct, but a kind of social system between people. They are no magic that can fix every situation.
And regarding his anti union stance, take a look in the history of unions in Europe, etc. The same arguments were used there and guess what: unions helped fighting for workers rights and dealing with the fact that they were replaceable. I feel like some education on things that were already tried somewhere else would not hurt us americans...and now people in western europe have unions and are better of, than they were before. Only because they fought for their rights.
Did you guys listen to the same discussion?
I like when destiny has these conversations with people who aren't absolute idiots.
> Supposedly wanting to find the most correct position on anything
> Intentionally trying to purge a portion of his audience by being mean to it instead of arguing with it
Something tells me this is a feels based position. Smh
People advocating for violent revolution aren't worth engaging with
@@aronchai You mean like white nationalists? Who Steven argues with?
aronchai yea come on dude, he argues with fucking fascists. Would it really be that crazy to actually expect destiny to get into meat of the argument when it comes to socialism/ Co ops/ post capitalist societies? I would recommend watching vaush reply to destiny's "capitalist arc" video. I think it encapsulates why lefties get a little bent out of shape when it comes to destiny.
TheEsotericZebra I guess that's fair when talking about his chat room and stuff. But the issue is that lefties feel that he doesn't actually engage with their ideas. He is very knowledgeable about capitalism but anything pertaining to actual leftism he seems very resistant to actually put in the work to understand. So he ends up creating weird lefty strawmen to yell at and rant against.
He likes to claim that he is unemotional about everything but when it comes to capitalism, he seems to be as emotionally invested in it as socialists are invested in things like co-ops.
I'm less than 10 mins in and Destiny comes out as a giant hypocrite.
I would love to see a conversation between Destiny and Richard Wolff.
Wolff is bread daddy
this needs to fucking happen
Destiny is too much of a bitch
Let him prove me wrong
All destiny can do is debate people on Twitter lmao
Destiny already said he won't do it. He's too much of a coward. The only ones he's likes to debate are dumb rightoids who he knows he can easily defeat and score easy points against.
Destiny is to neolibs what Dave Rubin is to rightoids.
Destiny became avant-garde in this debate
Destiny keeps appealing to this fantasy that if we could just educate people somone will create jobs for them when the exact opposite has been evidenced over the last 10 years. Students cant pay their student loans because we dont need 1000 managers Destiny.
Imagine if people were paid according to their needs hmmmm
Yes, educated for the corporate pipeline kind of education. Gotta make sure your slaves learn how to hit the rocks first! The system in the US, is almost like extortion. "We pay your education then your soul belongs to us, otherwise back to eating shit because your education isn't "marketable"."
People who study for management positions do not have trouble finding jobs, but nice try.
@@Snobbishbumpkin Oh, sweet summer child. The fact that you frame everything as a corporate venture for the benefit of the economy, shows exactly what you think of education, and how disconnected from the corporate world itself you are.
Oh, so many jobs, for people to just work and have their labor exploited since their teens, for the lowest bidder, or else you die. What a lovely life full of choices. So many new jobs, so many managers, and so many companies selling you the dream of delayed gratification to make sure their industry is fueled by your sunk cost fallacy. But then, the world changes and doesn't need you as much as it used to, and then you've lost your wager. Too bad it was "your" choice to believe in "our" dreams. What a lovely free world this is! That's clearly a sign of economic progress, right?
Sorry, but you need more education on economics, first and foremost. Next, maybe you should look at why all these countries with free education _don't_ have the massive gaping holes the US has.
@@Snobbishbumpkin Do you not see the problem in your thinking? You're literally telling people to get educated _so that_ they find work. Because they _need_ to do that. You don't want educated people, you want _trained_ people. Because that's your framing. When you think like that, it's all about how workers can offer their labor, not how you can maximize the well-being of your society. Blue collar is completely irrelevant to this. A burger-flipper, a manager and an engineer, still get _trained_ to produce rather than educated.
And I'm not even an US citizen. I've seen all sides of the grass, though, and the grass in the US is just rotten. I've seen both academia and the corporate world, on all sides, and one thing is clear: People that know better, wouldn't bet on the US. People don't want to move there, work there, or raise a family there. Though, they sure as hell would open a business to get some of that labor exploitation tax-cut mullah. I wonder why that is. It's almost as if the US is a capitalist dystopia...
It's funny how in your rant, you completely forget Europe in favor of China just to score some "red scare" points for yourself. Mighty fucking brave there, hoss.
USA is not number 1. It isn't. It's a dystopia. You can name a couple of "prestigious" universities, but why do you think they're at all more important than others? Seems like you've never seen much outside your bubble. They really aren't that great, sorry to burst your bubble. They aren't. They're just universities like any other, but with funds and branding. That's it. Weak-ass indoctrinated exceptionalist arguments.
Seriously, you don't know shit about economics, you're just ranting on what feels good for you. You keep thinking that the size of the US is at all relevant in these issues, or that you think that somehow you have a monopoly on innovation, which couldn't be further from the truth. You're clinically ignorant, and your american exceptionalism is showing. I'm not taking this discussion any further if that's all you got.
The 🍈 sending a text to his wife is a weird flex in destinys eyes
sides roll agreed, the better flex is having your daughter/girlfriend sitting in the room with you as you play video games.
DesTiny got death gripped in this debate
"I thhhhhiiiiiiinnnk capitalists have more power than workers" lol you think?
Well yea it's not a easy thing to discern, if all the workers suddenly decided to quit what would the capitalist do?
@@charbel2921 distract the idiot proletariat with Kardashians and other nonsense.
@@charbel2921 If you havent noticed yet Alex, capital can move
alex succar move operations to Mexico. If they are an operation essential to gdp, be forced to work by the federal government.
@mayrana2 If capitalists can just move their industries to 3rd world and countries and could automate every single job why is unemployment still at an all time low
Labor cost of a vehicle that cost around $25,000, which is the average cost of a vehicle in the US, is around 10%, that's $2500 per vehicle. And that percentage will decrease as the cost of the vehicle rises. So keeping these jobs in the US doesn't double the price of the vehicle as Destiny estimates.
Just to drive home this point on labor cost, Australia forced McDonald's to pay its workers $16.80 per hour and the cost of a Big Mac is 60 cents more than in the US which pays its workers $7.50.
God forbid I pay 60 more cents for my arteries to choke.
Destiny is such a man-baby on this topic
Great point, I always made this argument to my coworkers in a restaurant when there was a min wage ballot initiative here - they just believed the right wing BS despite being otherwise pretty left. I tried to explain the math, unless minimum wage labor is 100% of the cost of the product, it will be cheaper for us with a minimum wage raise. They would just dismiss it or at best look blankly lol
Destiny got coughed on in this debate
Democratising the workforce solves the specific problems relating workers issues within a workplace like pay, conditions etc. Worker cooperatives would still need regulating like any other company, your arguing against a straw man destiny
I can't believe I agreed more with Anthony Fantano more than steve.
Watched this live. It was a really good conversation, Fantano did really well
COPE
@@jimothy_7255 what am I coping with?
Only slightly relevant but Vacation is the GOAT.
@@AProbablyPostman This is true
@@jimothy_7255 I wonder if bro has matured during these three years
Fantano I understand your points, but you didn't have to call Destiny the N-word repeatedly for 20 minutes straight.
Also Destiny got destroyed in this debate.
i'm too early.
Workplace democracy is not "all workers should be managers because all workers are smart". it is all workers should be involved in the decision making during the labour process, they have a say in what their wages are, they have a say in who their superiors are etc in order to avoid exploitation.
@@lispinlunatic9205 Because he fuckin works there, ya dumbfuck.
why would you want superiors democraticly elected in a company? That would result in incompetent leadership, which would then result in the company going bankrupt.
Its bot exploitation if its voluntary.If they do t like wage or conditions they could always not work and starve or join with other people and start a voluntary commune in which they all help each ither and none are forced to democracy which is slavery.
The good old days
Fantano is actually arguing pretty well tbh, would have prefered Ben Burgis tho
Honestly Fantano did a great job of outlining the basic dimensions of most social dem/democratic socialist positions.
To the extent that this reflects the views of the 13 year old leftists that are triggering actual grown-ass , currently a father destiny; who knows,
Destinty thinks we can just whip up the neolib dream of a controlled labor economy where we just force every kid to be forced into a xanned out white collar job through relentless college prep style education. Children right now are stressed as fuck already. That's why so many of the' are so fucking left AND vocal about it on social media currently. They see that they are being fed into a broken labor system where even a college degree doesn't lead to the kind of employment which can keep folks in a stable situation.
Right now he's just coming off as neolib shapiro. He thinks his basically 70% externally contingent current wealth is somehow based on him being a VERY GOOD SMART BOY. There are so many versions his life where a minor quirk of fate going just a little worse would have resulted in him being in one of the jobs he considers beneath the dignity of being compensated enough to live without out fear of destitution.
So funny, this clout shit.
Damn tru.
Ben Burgis, Michael Brooks, Richard Wolff, Noam Chomsky haha
@Jacque A “Soc-Dem” who dick-rides Biden? 😆 He literally said in a recent video that he doesn’t like lefties like Kyle Kulinski and others, because they “criticize Biden all the time.” 🤦♂️ That’s partisan-hackery at its finest.
Things like a living wage, interest rate limits and rent control are not being advocated because they "feel good", Steven. They are being advocated because they do *work* over here in Europe, Steven...
Who is the one arguing from feelings here? It seems that you are the one trying to uphold the sanctity of the capitalist market - trying circumvent price controls at any cost.
Btw, right now the lack of a living wage leads to millions of Americans needing to resort to welfare despite working full time. How will you justify taxpayers paying for the shortcomings of private employers?
EDIT: Well, apparently Destiny does not believe that corporations should have to own up to any responsibility towards the workers who reproduce their very existence. Spoken like a true neoliberal...
Where in Europe is there a living wage?
@@moladejo362 You get paid around 20-30 bucks for working at mcdonalds in one of the """Scandinavian""" countries. Ill post a link
@@moladejo362 www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/business/international/living-wages-served-in-denmark-fast-food-restaurants.html
@@declaringpond2276 that is one country. In germany, social workers barely make a living on their job.
@@mrjones5636 Its almost as if germany isnt a socdem country
Anthony Fantano and Destiny? My fanfiction came true!
WOW... My favorite orators talking economics
wow, I kinda wish you guys talked about music more :
#Metoo :c
I wouldn't have conceded in the save jobs point. Saving jobs that produce relevant products or offer relevant services adds to the independence of a nation and prevents corporations from taking advantage of workers internationally. This also empowers foreign workers to advocate for their rights.
My two favourite youtubers. Damnn
I like Kyle Kulinski more than Destiny
@@bullsfan2021 you cant even compare those two... and I appreciate seculartalk
finally there was a time for us friend
majority report > kulinsky imo.
jr123 BS
Destinys always so cute when he's talking to his homies
Somebody who is surprised about the idea of a public option really shouldn't go around calling others "stupid"...
I know Destiny knows a lot about music, but his comments on the "musical foundation" of artists is a really common criticism of experimental music. Not everyone is going to like Captain Beefheart, or something even more outsider like the Shaggs, but even if you don't personally enjoy what artists like those have done, it is undeniable that they had an effect on the music that came after them by virtue of their sheer uniqueness. What Melon said towards the end is really relevant: sometimes an education can be restrictive. Breaking known rules is not the same as creating without knowing any rules at all. It's like the difference between Picasso (learned rules and broke them) and Basquiat (said fuck rules in general).
Basquiat could paint traditionally too tho
Destiny is surprised by the concept of public loans
fantano doxxing destiny and swatting him in the middle of the debate was an odd tactic
Destiny had a fruitful exchange in this debate
>some people still believing in Andrew Yang
Just vote Bernie, dont split the good vote.
100%
Well that is a really dumb take. A vote for Bernie is already in and of itself splitting the vote since Biden is destroying everyone in the polls (although I'm aware this may change as it gets to the debates and such).
Andrew Yang is pretty well on board with everything Bernie Sanders is, he is younger (the parabolic growth of technology is going to sledgehammer everyone in the face, youth is important), and as a bonus he focuses on automation from an informed position as a threat that needs to be addressed. His policy plan, UBI, is something pretty much anyone that understands what neural networks are, what they can do, and how they threaten to displace people faster than employing new people will support.
I dunno, I guess I just like the idea of making an informed decision of who I vote for (I supported Andrew Yang by randomly happening upon videos of him before I knew there was a weird internet cult surrounding him) rather than voting for someone out of some duty to just do it (what you're suggesting people do by voting for Sanders).
Fantanos voice is so damn chill
Destiny go on Chapo
Oh god he'd get ripped to shit
@@Alex-cw3rz when you unironicaly belive that they would be able to "rip him to shit"
A comment on Destiny's last point about retraining. The success rate for these programs is roughly 17%, basically wasted resources. Most people who need to be moved from an industry being automated are too old to teach, the human brain loses its elasticity over time. That's why we need heavy subsidies, if not socialization, of things necessary for life.
Healthcare, agriculture, and housing markets will not survive this shift.
Why does destiny think every single person in america can have a high skill specified job or even has the capacity to be trained in something highly skilled?
Tyler Weis I think capitalism is his biggest blindspot. So many of his thoughts on this seem to rely on this weird idea that all these negatives from capitalism are not inherent to capitalism. He seems to think that we are just not "doing it right". Destiny needs to realize that's all these externalities are a feature, not a bug.
So if you dont have marketable skills its capitalism fault.No one is entitled to a job or for they live ti be sustained.If they dont have a marketable skill they can just starve and die
@@celso1x ooooh so edgy!
@@celso1x Work or die. Don't sound like slavery at all
@@ananthakrishnanma6650 wtf do u think human existence is? U have to take care of yourself or u die lol. Sure, we should take care of disabled ppl and ppl who can’t take care of themselves, but existence is work.
Good talk, wish they talked about music more though
I fucking wish destiny was surrounded by more art philosophy people so that I could get the satisfaction of seeing his fucking. terrible takes challenged. NOBODY treats art as a valid subject of philosophy worthy of. Nuance. And it makes me so mad.
The closest destiny had got to a legitimate aesthetics conversation was that fuckin time that insufferable philosophy major who doesnt know shit about aesthetics decided it would be okay to argue art should only be allowed if it encourages good behavior by using anime hes never seen or analyzed as examples.
@@ingeteloo3065 Hello. Can you recommend any audio books on aesthetics or philosophy of music?
THE MELON! Wow, you actually got him on here. This is going to be a nice one.
Sucks that the bridge burned eventually, at least it happened at some point.
EDIT: Happened pretty quickly in December, lol.
I know I’m late asf but why did the bridge burn?
@@fartcriminals9623 because fantano has horrible twitter takes
Destiny didn't talk about death grips so he would have an excuse to have fantano back on 5head
Great debate, but I thought when Anthony endorsed full fledged communism and imprisonment of political opponents he was being a little unfair
I'm just glad Destiny can finally have a conversation with an actual rational person.
ramsfreak893 yeah it was nice to have people discuss actual solutions based in reality. Destiny’s debated some crazies it’s a dope contrast.
Implying destiny doesnt CHOOSE his guest(richard wolf(thicc lefty, good debator) wanted to come on, destiny doesnt.
DeclaringPond 22 all i implied was that this was a nice solutions oriented debate based in reality, unlike many of his most popular debates. Chill fam.
@@boysoul2075 and all I said was that he chooses not to have people who can debate in reality. Also, there are higher demands for normal people than the bens and the sargons.
@@yomamma4435 Hows it going comrade
Thank you for this destiny and fandango, you both are my favorite content creators, I really appreciate this.
Man Destiny sounds like he literally read Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell before doing this debate lol
cum witit now!
i recently started watching destiny he is super entertaining and while i dont agree with everything he says i like how he constructs really awesome arguments and has a dope was of elaborating his ideals. then i heard him talk about economics......... really pathetic
Damn Destiny has a really dark vision of humanity where humans are just cogs and wheels in the machine of an ever changing market.
Destiny gave DAMN. a 7 in this debate
an hour and 10!! here we go bois
I like this guy, he really exposes the idiocy in Destiny's labor comments
Destiny makes a fair point at 38:00. The problem with AOC’s advocacy of unions is that it’s inconsistent with (and undermined by) her stance on immigration. Unions can be extremely effective if labour demand is on par with or exceeds labour supply. It’s not the most efficient way to run an economy, but it’s a requirement for unions to be effective. If unions face competition from people who are willing to work for less, they will fail.
This conversation also highlights all of the issues with political twitter
The frustrating problem with Destinys perspective and argument regarding unregulated wages and workers labor is, we have already lived that reality and it failed. Hence why we currently have a n antiquated federal labor laws.
1:03:15 Yoko Ono timestamp
Anthony made some excellent points, but his 30 minute rant about the Jewish globalist industrial complex seemed in poor taste for my liking.
I thought this discussion was great but Anthony didn't need to get Destiny noided in this debate.
I'm confused, is this a logical and calm conversation
I think it becuase destiny has a great deal of respect for fantano
The fusion of memes in this comment section is glorious
Memeception
45:52 Unsafe Conditions at Rocky Flats Plant which was controlled by DOW Chemical in Colorado during the 1950s is a good example
Destiny got a not good in this debate
Debate Richard D Wolff
Growing up with youtube my whole adolescent life, Anthony Fantano was like my political role model because before I knew about destiny and others like him (maybe before they were even around) he was like the only relatively 'political' left leaning person on the fucking platform. Thank you, Anthony, for basically being my safe space in the edgy right wing environment of youtube growing up. Forever
Still gave gave the OOZ a 3/10 tho so im gonna have to give this collaboration a decent to strong 6. TRAN-
Destiny's youtube guy got a raise in this debate.
I haven't finished the whole talk, but I got irritated by the halfway mark by the lack of attention paid to the amount of political power the corporations etc are allowed to amass when you continue to socialize the losses and privatize the gains.
Destiny "I always looks like he woke up 5 minutes ago" Bonale
The fact that u changed person perspective words during a sentence gave me an aneurysm
What about his waking up relates to you?
@@emperortgp2424 I wake up also. So relatable.
"Markets just work" isn't some statement we should be taking for granted, markets fail disastrously and spectacularly every few decades.
Nowhere near the same level as centralized/ planned economies
@@D3ckstr another platitude that know-nothing morons repeat endlessly