Thank you, I just found this video, 5 years later. I hope you're still making videos. You remind me of Richard Delaney of Rope Lab. You both have great instructional Videos!
Good Morning Rich. It's a lucky soul that see's you at the top of their line. I know the good feeling of having someone say, " I know what to do, I am going to get you out of there..." It is almost always me, helping someone else, but I alive because a spelunking partner had the strength and calm to get me back up. You do a really good job of teaching these important hitches. Thank you, George.
People CAN and DO get stuck rappelling and ascending. I’ve seen it twice where lockers weren’t locked and the system cross clipped into the rope, the rappel extension, and they sometimes can’t figure it out or accidentally strand themselves. I’ve rigged my own version of a complicated releasable anchor based on what I know, but I look forward to learning and mastering this to better guide my friends.
Ideally the Munter Hitch should be tied so that the brake rope exits along the spine of the carabiner. If the brake rope exits across the gate of the carabiner then a few things can occur: The movement of the rope across the gate mechanism may actually unlock and open the gate. The gate mechanism may have edges that could catch on and damage the rope sheath. Common sense would be to teach MMO with brake rope exits along the spine of the carabiner.
Great video! I do believe it would be beneficial for many viewers to see it rigged in a typical setting with a quick link on the webbing. Keep up the great work!
Say you were taking someone inexperienced rappeling and on the way down they got their hair stuck in their rappel device and now cannot lower themselves. They are stuck. Or maybe they are scared and won't come down. With this you can unhook the mule knot and lower them mix and slowly from the top with the munter knot. They can just sit tight and get lowered to safety.
Hi Rich, I would be grateful if you could give your perspective on why you choose an overhand instead of 2 half hitches to tie off? Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Great video. One minor tip: check the munter is set to lower before tying the mule. During a course when I released the mule, the munter popped around and my pretend-client dropped a little. Didn't really matter but gave them a fright.
Excellent video, really enjoying the concise and clear way you address things. I was just wondering what the particular advantages of using an overhand to lock off the munter as opposed to two half hitches? Is it just personal preference? (The latter is very common in UK single pitch abseiling setups)
can surely be useful. in european caving however, we use several, or even a lot, of rebelays in practically every pit. that makes releasing and lowering a rope impossible. also,when installing, you start with tying the end of the rope to the rope head anchors. you cannot carry double lenght rope for every pit!
Of course. It is obvious. If you have a problem your rescue plan will to bring the person back up. Not continue down. Cavers are also more likely to have the ability to self-rescue because learning to ascend efficiently is a necessity.
This is awesome information as I learn. Thanks! Quick question. How do you transition from this to rappelling yourself while keeping a retrievable system?
Thank you for checking out the video. Glad you liked it. To your question - The last person down obviously needs to dismantle the MMO to make the system retrievable. Then two options; rappel down on two strands of rope or install a static block and rappel on a single strand. Ideally, you have kept the rope bag on top with you with the rope in reserve when everyone else was rappelling. As the last person down, I rarely throw the rope bag down. Instead, I clip it to my harness so the rope deploys out of the bag as I am rappelling. Which side of my body I clip the bag to depends on my rope rigging choice. If I am coming down on two strands, I clip the bag to my brake side because one of the strands that is passing through my rappel device is coming out of the bag as I descend. If I rigged a block and am rappelling on one strand of rope, I clip the bag to my non-brake side. It is only the pull down stand of rope that is coming out of the bag. Clipping it to my non-brake side keeps it out of my way.
I can see this being useful in the context of rock climbing. Whenever I had heard it talked about previously it sounded overly complex and difficult, however you have shown me that is far from the truth. It does have complex advantages though. Just need to practice, practice, practice. Im thinking for tying off a haul line short for rappelling down to the lower anchor (so I can lower out the bags and then jumar up the lead rope and clean the gear I placed while leading) when rope soloing. Anything glaring that I’m missing that would be a reason NOT to use it for this purpose? Thank you, once again for a useful video and teaching me some new tricks! Ive purchased a Blue Water VT Prussik and am very excited about the options that it enables, some of which I wouldn’t know how to achieve without the VT Prussik (such as descending a loaded rope). The Canyon Cordelette is another tool that looks indispensable. Is there still a version that can be purchased that comes with a sewn eye at the end? I think that would be a worthwhile purchase as well, getting rid of knots in cord by having a sewn termination is such a nice upgrade.
The MMO does have a learning curve, but like anything else, you only get past that curve by practicing. Once you master it you will find it very useful. And it only requires one HMS carabiner to rig.
I subscribed to your newsletter, I assume you will be sending out some emails when you'll have the schedule. Thanks again for your great work on the videos! Very helpful.
Ok, so you are at the top and going to abseil down. But you are also intending on leaving the rope. If you get stuck trying to abseil, someone who is still at the top can lower you the rest of the way. Unless you are the last person going down. I am sorry, I just don't understand when this would be used. It seems like such an uncommon thing to want to abseil down while wanting to leave the rope stuck from where you came. Maybe a cave? But if that's the case you don't want to lower them down if they get stuck, you want them to get up.
There are many raps where you are doing ledges and cannot see the base. If you find you cannot reach on the first rap and it needs to be extended for subsequent raps then extend it and set up your favorite single strand retrieval. If you dont have the means to retrieve a single strand, you should probably not have strayed from the gym.
Rich - you say that you rig releasable when you are not sure the rope reaches the ground. Are you always keeping your extra rope up high? If you were to throw a rope bag and deploy your longest rope you would usually know that you have enough out. Sometimes it seems like keeping rope up at the anchor can create the problems that it is trying to solve...
My follow-up question ... When you connect the tail of the rope to the anchor and throw the rope bag down, then discover your rope is not long enough, what do you do?
@@CanyonsCrags I've thought about this a lot over the past week and have realized that you can always deploy your longest rope in full, and then have another rope joined with a bend just before entering the anchor quicklink, and then have that second rope rigged as contingency anchor ready to lower the full distance of your second longest rope. This definitely feels like a longer process than a carabiner block, but I suppose if the deployed rope in the carabiner block was too short then you've just created a much lengthier problem to solve.
@@eonblue46 I have another video on this channel titled, It Depends. It is rare to find a “cookie cutter” solution that is ideal 100% of the time. Better to have a few tools in your toolbox and know how (and when) to use each.
4:43 Does it matter if you do the loop the opposite way (ovrerhand loop and then you feed a bight from behind the loop) as long as you have a collar around your two vertical pieces? I've seen quite a few different ways of setting up the munter which makes it confusing with the later steps
At that time point I am tying a mule hitch, which is really nothing more than a slip knot. If you create a collar that captures both strands of rope it does not matter if you tie it from the back, front or side -- assuming I understand your question.
Rich thank you so much for these videos! I tried calling to inquire about guiding and courses, but I couldn't get through. Are you still offering these services? Also, if one were to use this MMO option, how is it retrievable after the last rappeller is safely down? Would the last rappeller not have to take down the MMO and go down without a contingency? Thank you sir!
I still love teaching, but it is getting hard to compete with all the part-time instructors who are teaching as a hobby. Getting old. The MMO is not retrievable. Last person down needs to convert it to either double rope or a single rope block. Last person has nobody left on top to operate a contingency. Last person needs to be competent.
@@CanyonsCrags well I'd love to be a student! Please let me know how best to connect :) I hear you on the competition teaching as a hobby. I'd prefer to go with a pro. Thanks for quick reply on the MMO. That completely makes sense.
This is a great video. Thanks! Rich - Do you always rig releasable? If not, what factors do you consider when releasing releasable? I assume you consider how much extra rope you have, confidence that the rope reaches the ground, and experience of group. Anything else?
It depends .... ALWAYS when I am not sure the rope reaches the ground. ALWAYS when rappelling into swiftwater. ALWAYS when guiding clients. Other situations depend upon the specific circumstances of the rappel and the group. If people do not have self-rescue skills, rigging releasable is prudent.
Im not sure I understand the workflow in a canyon. Would the biner be clipped to a quick link? Then the last person down would undo all of this and set up their desired rappel method (biner/knot block, double rope rappel, etc)? Im considering switching to this as my go-to contingency rigging, but if im understanding it right, tying the knot is the least of your time worries. Re-rigging the last rappell could take a minute.
Most canyon descends are "pull down" trips, meaning the group rappels, the rope is retrieved, the group moves down to the next rappel, repeat. The MMO is just one possibility for rigging. Using it will require the last person down to switch to a block or double rope rappel. Time requirement (after a bit of practice) is very minimal. Untie overhand safety, release mule hitch, remove carabiner. About 10 seconds.
@@CanyonsCrags Wouldn't you then need to refeed the rope through the quick link on the anchor for the last person on rappel? Thus taking up more time ,or is the rope already through the quick link? Thanks
@@CanyonsCrags I think JWG was right. A static block do require refeeding the rope in the quick link based on the MMO setup shown in the video. Common practice is to feed the rope through the quick link first and THEN rig MMO.
@@virusheat What you are both missing ... There is more than one application for using a releasable contingency. If I am at a practice cliff I will rig the MMO with a carabiner clipped directly to the anchor. No need for a rappel ring because at the end of the day I will hike back up to the top to disassemble my rigging and take everything home. In an application like canyoneering we are doing a “pull-down” which means the last person needs to convert the MMO to something that is retrievable. That could be double rope (rappelling on both strands) or a static block to rappel on only one strand. If I am doing a pull-down I will install a rappel ring on the anchor first and thread my rope through the rappel ring and set the rope length, THEN rig the MMO. Because I have made a reputation in canyoneering people assume that every video I make is intended to be only for canyoneering. My apologies for not adding that extra bit of information to the video specifically for canyoneers.
Figure eight block is easier to learn for most people. But is less reliable for releasing and lowering. MMO has a longer learning curve, but it will serve you well without requiring anything other than an HMS carabiner to rig it.
The main argument I have for your rope not reaching the bottom is even if the mom is done the second is SOL. He is stuck 30 feet off the ground. Unless they are carrying 30 ft runners, yes I do carry one, you lose your rope.
Second is not SOL. When rigging SRT it is not uncommon for the rope to be short for the first person, but have sufficient rope in reserve at the top. If there is not enough rope, the pull side can be extended with webbing, cord, shoe laces, harness waist belts buckled together, etc.
Great vid! I'm wondering if this could be used as an emergency ground based rescue setup for srt tree climbing? The MMO would be upside down though, as it would be anchored at the base of the tree, with the loaded rope going up the tree and over a high point, with climber on the other side. If that makes sense? Thoughts? Any arborists wanna chime in?
@@CanyonsCrags great to hear back. Thank you. I'm going to experiment with a dead weight on the working line. This will be helpful as It seems very simple compared to other basal anchor/ backup rescue systems, which usually involve mechanical descent devices (which I don't have.) thanks again from AUS. Great vids :)
As presented in the video ... When you are not certain the rope reaches the bottom. When someone becomes stuck on the rope; for example hair caught in rappel device. When someone suffers an injury. Rigging with a releasable contingency provides the ability to get them down quickly.
Thank you, I just found this video, 5 years later. I hope you're still making videos. You remind me of Richard Delaney of Rope Lab. You both have great instructional Videos!
Thank you for your kind words. Means a lot to me.
Good Morning Rich. It's a lucky soul that see's you at the top of their line. I know the good feeling of having someone say, " I know what to do, I am going to get you out of there..." It is almost always me, helping someone else, but I alive because a spelunking partner had the strength and calm to get me back up. You do a really good job of teaching these important hitches. Thank you, George.
What a legend. Best explanation on the subject that I've ever seen. Crisp, professional delivery. Grateful I found this video! Thank you.
Max, thank you for your kind words. It means a lot to me.
The best Munter Mule Video on RUclips.
People CAN and DO get stuck rappelling and ascending. I’ve seen it twice where lockers weren’t locked and the system cross clipped into the rope, the rappel extension, and they sometimes can’t figure it out or accidentally strand themselves. I’ve rigged my own version of a complicated releasable anchor based on what I know, but I look forward to learning and mastering this to better guide my friends.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I'm glad you found the video helpful.
Great voice, and instruction with clarity. I give this video 10 out of 10.
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Masterclass.
Thank you for the comment and for checking out my videos.
Cheers from NZ
Always good to refresh knowledge of knots/hitches etc...
You are a champ sir
Ideally the Munter Hitch should be tied so that the brake rope exits along the spine of the carabiner. If the brake rope exits across the gate of the carabiner then a few things can occur:
The movement of the rope across the gate mechanism may actually unlock and open the gate.
The gate mechanism may have edges that could catch on and damage the rope sheath.
Common sense would be to teach MMO with brake rope exits along the spine of the carabiner.
Thank you for taking the time to share your opinion.
Explained so well. Thank you for making this. Much better than other's I've watched. This will help me pass the SPI exam.
Thank you. Glad to know you benefited from it.
great demonstration, very well done!10/10
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Your a very good teacher! I liked the sarcasm. I think it was a inoffensive way to get the point across. I'm a sub now. Thanks for the vids.
Sarcasm? What sarcasm? ;-)
Nice video! Thanks for sharing. - Rope Tech in Canada.
You are welcome. Thank you for checking out my videos.
Great video! I do believe it would be beneficial for many viewers to see it rigged in a typical setting with a quick link on the webbing. Keep up the great work!
Why would someone ever have to use this?
Say you were taking someone inexperienced rappeling and on the way down they got their hair stuck in their rappel device and now cannot lower themselves. They are stuck. Or maybe they are scared and won't come down. With this you can unhook the mule knot and lower them mix and slowly from the top with the munter knot. They can just sit tight and get lowered to safety.
Hi Rich, I would be grateful if you could give your perspective on why you choose an overhand instead of 2 half hitches to tie off?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Great video. One minor tip: check the munter is set to lower before tying the mule. During a course when I released the mule, the munter popped around and my pretend-client dropped a little. Didn't really matter but gave them a fright.
Good point indeed. Thank you for sharing that and for checking out my videos.
Awesome video series sir!
Thank you. I have not been very active in a while. Getting back into making more videos now.
😊 thanks.
You are welcome. I am glad to know you appreciated the video.
Your cool man! Thanks for the great instructional. I have been climbing in utah now a lot since I moved here.
Great tip. Thank tou for teach.
Excellent video, really enjoying the concise and clear way you address things. I was just wondering what the particular advantages of using an overhand to lock off the munter as opposed to two half hitches? Is it just personal preference? (The latter is very common in UK single pitch abseiling setups)
Good video, as usual.
Awesome video
Thank you. I’m glad you like it.
can surely be useful. in european caving however, we use several, or even a lot, of rebelays in practically every pit. that makes releasing and lowering a rope impossible. also,when installing, you start with tying the end of the rope to the rope head anchors. you cannot carry double lenght rope for every pit!
Of course. It is obvious. If you have a problem your rescue plan will to bring the person back up. Not continue down. Cavers are also more likely to have the ability to self-rescue because learning to ascend efficiently is a necessity.
Nice video. Thanks for details. 👍
Legend
This is awesome information as I learn. Thanks! Quick question. How do you transition from this to rappelling yourself while keeping a retrievable system?
Thank you for checking out the video. Glad you liked it. To your question - The last person down obviously needs to dismantle the MMO to make the system retrievable. Then two options; rappel down on two strands of rope or install a static block and rappel on a single strand. Ideally, you have kept the rope bag on top with you with the rope in reserve when everyone else was rappelling. As the last person down, I rarely throw the rope bag down. Instead, I clip it to my harness so the rope deploys out of the bag as I am rappelling. Which side of my body I clip the bag to depends on my rope rigging choice. If I am coming down on two strands, I clip the bag to my brake side because one of the strands that is passing through my rappel device is coming out of the bag as I descend. If I rigged a block and am rappelling on one strand of rope, I clip the bag to my non-brake side. It is only the pull down stand of rope that is coming out of the bag. Clipping it to my non-brake side keeps it out of my way.
@@CanyonsCrags Cool, so I'd dismantle the MMO, then just run the rope straight through the chains and rappel like normal? I think I got it.
@@ressikman Or you could think ahead and run the rope through the rappel ring BEFORE you rig the MMO.
Succinct, clear instruction with excellent enunciation; this is the way you impart knowledge. Thank you :)
Gets a sub from me too :)
Thank you for your kind words. Glad you are enjoying my videos.
I can see this being useful in the context of rock climbing. Whenever I had heard it talked about previously it sounded overly complex and difficult, however you have shown me that is far from the truth. It does have complex advantages though. Just need to practice, practice, practice. Im thinking for tying off a haul line short for rappelling down to the lower anchor (so I can lower out the bags and then jumar up the lead rope and clean the gear I placed while leading) when rope soloing. Anything glaring that I’m missing that would be a reason NOT to use it for this purpose?
Thank you, once again for a useful video and teaching me some new tricks! Ive purchased a Blue Water VT Prussik and am very excited about the options that it enables, some of which I wouldn’t know how to achieve without the VT Prussik (such as descending a loaded rope). The Canyon Cordelette is another tool that looks indispensable. Is there still a version that can be purchased that comes with a sewn eye at the end? I think that would be a worthwhile purchase as well, getting rid of knots in cord by having a sewn termination is such a nice upgrade.
The MMO does have a learning curve, but like anything else, you only get past that curve by practicing. Once you master it you will find it very useful. And it only requires one HMS carabiner to rig.
Excellent video, probably the best ones I've seen online. When will your next courses be?
Thank you. Much appreciated. I hope to have some courses on the schedule in late May and July.
I subscribed to your newsletter, I assume you will be sending out some emails when you'll have the schedule. Thanks again for your great work on the videos! Very helpful.
Ok, so you are at the top and going to abseil down. But you are also intending on leaving the rope. If you get stuck trying to abseil, someone who is still at the top can lower you the rest of the way. Unless you are the last person going down. I am sorry, I just don't understand when this would be used. It seems like such an uncommon thing to want to abseil down while wanting to leave the rope stuck from where you came. Maybe a cave? But if that's the case you don't want to lower them down if they get stuck, you want them to get up.
There are many raps where you are doing ledges and cannot see the base. If you find you cannot reach on the first rap and it needs to be extended for subsequent raps then extend it and set up your favorite single strand retrieval. If you dont have the means to retrieve a single strand, you should probably not have strayed from the gym.
Rich - you say that you rig releasable when you are not sure the rope reaches the ground. Are you always keeping your extra rope up high? If you were to throw a rope bag and deploy your longest rope you would usually know that you have enough out. Sometimes it seems like keeping rope up at the anchor can create the problems that it is trying to solve...
My follow-up question ... When you connect the tail of the rope to the anchor and throw the rope bag down, then discover your rope is not long enough, what do you do?
@@CanyonsCrags I've thought about this a lot over the past week and have realized that you can always deploy your longest rope in full, and then have another rope joined with a bend just before entering the anchor quicklink, and then have that second rope rigged as contingency anchor ready to lower the full distance of your second longest rope. This definitely feels like a longer process than a carabiner block, but I suppose if the deployed rope in the carabiner block was too short then you've just created a much lengthier problem to solve.
@@eonblue46 I have another video on this channel titled, It Depends. It is rare to find a “cookie cutter” solution that is ideal 100% of the time. Better to have a few tools in your toolbox and know how (and when) to use each.
4:43 Does it matter if you do the loop the opposite way (ovrerhand loop and then you feed a bight from behind the loop) as long as you have a collar around your two vertical pieces? I've seen quite a few different ways of setting up the munter which makes it confusing with the later steps
At that time point I am tying a mule hitch, which is really nothing more than a slip knot. If you create a collar that captures both strands of rope it does not matter if you tie it from the back, front or side -- assuming I understand your question.
Rich thank you so much for these videos! I tried calling to inquire about guiding and courses, but I couldn't get through. Are you still offering these services? Also, if one were to use this MMO option, how is it retrievable after the last rappeller is safely down? Would the last rappeller not have to take down the MMO and go down without a contingency? Thank you sir!
I still love teaching, but it is getting hard to compete with all the part-time instructors who are teaching as a hobby. Getting old.
The MMO is not retrievable. Last person down needs to convert it to either double rope or a single rope block. Last person has nobody left on top to operate a contingency. Last person needs to be competent.
@@CanyonsCrags well I'd love to be a student! Please let me know how best to connect :) I hear you on the competition teaching as a hobby. I'd prefer to go with a pro.
Thanks for quick reply on the MMO. That completely makes sense.
This is a great video. Thanks!
Rich - Do you always rig releasable? If not, what factors do you consider when releasing releasable? I assume you consider how much extra rope you have, confidence that the rope reaches the ground, and experience of group. Anything else?
It depends .... ALWAYS when I am not sure the rope reaches the ground. ALWAYS when rappelling into swiftwater. ALWAYS when guiding clients. Other situations depend upon the specific circumstances of the rappel and the group. If people do not have self-rescue skills, rigging releasable is prudent.
@@CanyonsCrags those parameters are super helpful. Thanks Rich!
Im not sure I understand the workflow in a canyon. Would the biner be clipped to a quick link? Then the last person down would undo all of this and set up their desired rappel method (biner/knot block, double rope rappel, etc)? Im considering switching to this as my go-to contingency rigging, but if im understanding it right, tying the knot is the least of your time worries. Re-rigging the last rappell could take a minute.
Most canyon descends are "pull down" trips, meaning the group rappels, the rope is retrieved, the group moves down to the next rappel, repeat. The MMO is just one possibility for rigging. Using it will require the last person down to switch to a block or double rope rappel. Time requirement (after a bit of practice) is very minimal. Untie overhand safety, release mule hitch, remove carabiner. About 10 seconds.
@@CanyonsCrags Wouldn't you then need to refeed the rope through the quick link on the anchor for the last person on rappel? Thus taking up more time ,or is the rope already through the quick link? Thanks
@@jwgolding No. Common practice is for the last person to convert the MMO to a static block.
@@CanyonsCrags I think JWG was right. A static block do require refeeding the rope in the quick link based on the MMO setup shown in the video. Common practice is to feed the rope through the quick link first and THEN rig MMO.
@@virusheat What you are both missing ... There is more than one application for using a releasable contingency. If I am at a practice cliff I will rig the MMO with a carabiner clipped directly to the anchor. No need for a rappel ring because at the end of the day I will hike back up to the top to disassemble my rigging and take everything home. In an application like canyoneering we are doing a “pull-down” which means the last person needs to convert the MMO to something that is retrievable. That could be double rope (rappelling on both strands) or a static block to rappel on only one strand. If I am doing a pull-down I will install a rappel ring on the anchor first and thread my rope through the rappel ring and set the rope length, THEN rig the MMO.
Because I have made a reputation in canyoneering people assume that every video I make is intended to be only for canyoneering. My apologies for not adding that extra bit of information to the video specifically for canyoneers.
Fantastic, spent 30 minutes searching for a video like this, perfect explanation thank you!
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I'm glad you found the video helpful.
@@CanyonsCrags absolutely! Along with your other videos, thanks for all the info!
Curious question, what is your experience with using a figure eight block instead of the munter-mule?
Figure eight block is easier to learn for most people. But is less reliable for releasing and lowering. MMO has a longer learning curve, but it will serve you well without requiring anything other than an HMS carabiner to rig it.
The main argument I have for your rope not reaching the bottom is even if the mom is done the second is SOL. He is stuck 30 feet off the ground. Unless they are carrying 30 ft runners, yes I do carry one, you lose your rope.
Second is not SOL. When rigging SRT it is not uncommon for the rope to be short for the first person, but have sufficient rope in reserve at the top. If there is not enough rope, the pull side can be extended with webbing, cord, shoe laces, harness waist belts buckled together, etc.
Great vid! I'm wondering if this could be used as an emergency ground based rescue setup for srt tree climbing? The MMO would be upside down though, as it would be anchored at the base of the tree, with the loaded rope going up the tree and over a high point, with climber on the other side. If that makes sense?
Thoughts?
Any arborists wanna chime in?
Yes, the MMO can be used for basal anchors for tree work.
@@CanyonsCrags great to hear back. Thank you. I'm going to experiment with a dead weight on the working line. This will be helpful as It seems very simple compared to other basal anchor/ backup rescue systems, which usually involve mechanical descent devices (which I don't have.) thanks again from AUS. Great vids :)
Why would you ever have to use this?
As presented in the video ... When you are not certain the rope reaches the bottom. When someone becomes stuck on the rope; for example hair caught in rappel device. When someone suffers an injury. Rigging with a releasable contingency provides the ability to get them down quickly.