Pushing The Issue (Part 2): Tai Chi Push Hands Competitions
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- Part 2 of 2: A critical look at Tai Chi Push Hands competitions in China and the United States. If you wish to support the effort of this film, please visit www.pushingthei...
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I am a student of Master Wang Hai Jun, student of Chen Zheng Lei. Master Wang won gold medals in push hands many years in a row around Asia. I have been a serious martial artist for 20 years, in addition to almost 10 with him. I could not agree more with your critique here. Chen Tai Chi is meant as a sincere, real-world martial art, not something all in your head. It, like other internal martial arts, is easy to create ideas of. Just practice sincerely with a qualified teacher.
Being someone who was trained by my dad in Tai Chi who was trained by my grandfather and a real master of Tai Chi in Taiwan, I am deeply offended by people who somehow think that Tai Chi isn't a combative martial art. In fact, the roots of many forms of fighting in Asia come from the principles of Tai Chi because Tai Chi was created thousands of years ago by Chinese people for fighting. Wushu and Wing Chun take almost all their close combat principles from Tai Chi.
Interesting stuff.
Soooooooooooooooooo True!
Thanks for the video, I have never before seen American push-hands competition. I wonder how the rules compare in the European push hands circuit.
@TomKagan The goal seems to be to copy perfectly a particular form. If your goal is to learn to fight with tai chi then at some point you have to fight. Doing forms will never, ever bridge the gap from form to application.
i think barring restrictions on the whole match degenerating into a complete free-for-all, there should be as little restrictions as possible. granted, sometimes it does not look like taiji but unfortunately, the only way to gauge one's skill is simply whether you can handle your opponent and not when it looks correct because then it'll just rely on the observer's subjectivity. if i lose because of a karate move, there's nothing to complain about and it just only shows i need more practice.
Being someone who was trained by my father in Tai Chi from a very young age, who was taught by my grandfather in Taiwan who was a real Tai Chi master, I am offended by the statements that Tai Chi somehow isn't a combative martial art. Also, if you think that two trained Tai Chi fighters should not appear to be using any force for fighting, you are totally misguided in your technique. Yes, against someone untrained, it should appear as if no effort is made, but against another trained fighter..
this was a great documentary.
The Chinese tai shou matches were far more interesting.
What's the deal with the carpet in Chinese matches? It seems to wrinkle up.
There is no "most effective" art and there never will be. Wrestling is a submission match - it's designed to restrain your opponent. Push hands - which is NOT sparring - is simply a method of practicing techniques as taught in Tai Chi Chu'an.
Looks like Shuai Jiao-Chinese Wrestling-Tai Chi originated from it. These judges are hurting the sport. It needs to stay true to the spirit of China. I agree 100% with this film.
Of course none of the people who do competitions usually are real masters. My dad is seriously good, but definitely not a master (my grandfather was though), but I have seen him hold off 3 guys pushing him at the same time. He did train a few people when I was younger for competitions, but he was never interested in it himself.
@TomKagan Well, shui jiao and mongolian wrestling *are* no gi wrestling. Sumo is also wrestling, Judo is pretty close but the gi does change the look of it a bit. They look almost exactly the same as wrestling. This is because there are only a limited number of ways to throw another human. Tai chi of course is not wrestling although it may have a couple of throws in it.
The method of training is what makes it wrestling; partners use resistance and it is goal oriented, not form oriented.
That judge was bothering me. STOP.
STOP.
STOP.
STOP.
Oh? Then is no single style dominant in any MMA league? Why have multiple styles persisted for milennia?
There is no SINGLE most effective art because each situation is different. A situation that is ideal for Muay Thai would be terrible for BJJ, and vice versa. And so on, and so forth. So unless you count "every style put together in one" as a style, then, no, there is no single best art.
Although the competitors shown in this video (both Chinese and American) seem to lack a good understanding of Tai Chi principles, since all they seem to do is greet yang with is yang rather than driving the oncoming force with yin, the judging system in America is obviously too strict because rather than allowing the true skill to come out on top in a natural way, they turn each fight into a Tai Chi lesson
"Whether US or China, what I see looks like a comb of bad judo/sumo." -- I agree.
The asian version does look a lot more like Wing Chun push hands than Tai Chi though. They don't seem to root as much, and there is a little too much extraneous movement which is more common in Wing Chun. Still, the American version is ridiculous.
This video untastefully uses the example of Cheng ManChing to support their argument. It just shows how push hands, chi & uprooting is completely misunderstood. In both competitions only physical force is used, there is no real power. It is not the real usage of chi. Although the video is arguing against the "rules" of what push hands should be, none in this footage have reached any achievement beyond physical force or understand real tai chi to make rules in the first place. Open to discuss.
The Chinese version looks just like wrestling, why don't they just train wrestling.