Thanks so much tough to balance detail and time. You want to provide information but you don't want to bore people at the same time. Happy resonated it more to come. And thank you for the support.
This Thrid and second Ave Elevated subway lines brings us back memories. I liked when you explained how the second and ninth and 3rd Avenue Elevated lines were built over decades ago.
This is a beautiful Thrid and second Ave old Elevated lines to 129 street elevated. Thrid Avenue Elevated definitely has a chance in the south Bronx Tremont Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx again. Never rebuild another elevated line in Manhattan again. In a way I was disappointed and very unhappy about the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line had to be taken down in the south Bronx and Manhattan. It was meant for the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line in Manhattan to be torn down because they had talk buildings and other people were complaining about it made to much noise in Manhattan. What they definitely should of did is to shutdown the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down for a little while until they do a complete inspections over haul trestles track frames and girldles and beams and stations. The BX 55 buses should of had stayed until the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line was 100 percent complete instead of shutting down third Avenue Elevated line down in the Bronx for good. Like In Brooklyn or Queens some where they had the whole entire elevated still structures up without no train tracks just a scelliton elevated structures .
Who would build the Thrid Avenue Elevated line in Manhattan in the first place? They definitely should of build it under ground on Thrid Avenue to south Ferry and leave the Thrid Avenue Elevated structures in the Bronx. Millions and millions of people are still processing about the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line shouldn't not have never been taken down in the south Bronx and still disappointed and very unhappy about it. I totally disagree with the lower riderships and and the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line had made to much noise because that's a dam lie. The Two reasons why they were fusted the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line to come down because. One they let the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line get it to rusted with out taking care of the heavy metal steel structures. Two Governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses had hated Elevated lines and they could not stand for no extra elevated lines to be the way they are now. Governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses had fusted the TA workers to tair down the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down. They know dam well it was a crime tairing down the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down.
Lets understand history planing for the line go back to the early 1870s, when plans for the Third and Sixth Avenue elevated lines were first laid out. Back then, underground rail was practically unheard of in the United States, even though Alfred E. Beach had secretly constructed a short-lived pneumatic passenger railway beneath Broadway. However, the technology for a full-fledged subway system was still decades away. London's early underground lines were steam-powered, highlighting the challenges of operating trains beneath the city streets. So, when the Third Avenue El was built in 1878, following the model of the Ninth Avenue El, it made perfect sense to go with an elevated design. It wasn't until a quarter-century later, with the signing of Contract 1 for the Interborough Rapid Transit Company (IRT) in 1900, that the technological advancements necessary for a subway finally arrived.
Once Manhattan service was discontinued, the 3rd Ave el no longer made any financial sense to continue. The Bronx itself was in decline from the 1950’s in terms of economic activity and population. From 169th street to Fordham Road there were serious losses of business and infrastructure; the Bronx Borough Hall and the Criminal Court relocated to 161st street and Grand Concourse by the 60’s The elevated lines were antiquated; they couldn’t support the newer, heavier cars without substantial structural reinforcement which the MTA wasn’t willing to invest in an obsolete technology. The original plan was to replace the elevated lines with subways which would connect to 125th street and Lexington Ave lines. Unfortunately, the city’s financial problems in the 70’s prevented those plans from becoming reality.
@@dangelo1369 There is no argument regarding the economic conditions of the South Bronx moving into the 1970s. However, we feel that the intensity of the work needed to bring the Bronx sections of the line up to par is sometimes exaggerated in fan and enthusiast circles. It’s important to note that the bents for the 1887-91 sections of the line were replaced to support the downward weight of both the local and middle tracks. For context, the weight limits of the Trenton Y column Manhattan sections were 64,000 lbs for Tracks 1 and 2 and just north of 70,000 lbs for the middle track, all based on AW0 weight with no passengers. The issue wasn’t the downward weight but rather the post-war equipment's increased acceleration to 2.5 mph/s, combined with dynamic braking. When the line was rebuilt in 1914, the width of the bents wasn’t adjusted to be closer to the curves, which essentially created an overhang of the local tracks compared to Dual Contract builds. In those, the bents are either centered with the local tracks (as seen on the Jerome and White Plains Road lines) or entirely outside the local tracks (like the Contract 1 builds and the Astoria line). Think of a person spreading their legs wider for balance; if someone pushes from the front or back, you're better braced with your legs centered or wider apart rather than closer together. This forward and backward force is akin to a faster accelerating and braking train, similar to a rug sliding underfoot. The weight distributed linear with flexible joints every few stingers. These factors changed with the dynamic loads. From the prints we’ve seen, the dead and live loads were adequate. Bent replacement or shifting in places like Tremont and bracing for a tower setup around the Cross Bronx, which pushed 30 feet in height, would have been beneficial. More work was needed for the BMT Jamaica line, which required strengthening again in the 1980s and 90s, an older section of line than the Bronx Third by a year or two. The heaviest loads on the line were the Composites pre-subway opening, running the lower section of the Bronx Third Avenue line along with the Second Avenue line in Manhattan. The motor cars were 80,000 lbs plus. After 1916, when they came to the Els, they were 73,000 lbs with no trailer cars, which is heavier than the current class of cars. The middle track was used for layups south of Tremont, so the structure could hold three 6-7 car Composites on each track. We did a breakdown of this on our Facebook group, and I’ll find and post it.
@@Subways_io I disagree, mainly from the reports of the MTA itself. The plan all along was to tear down the els from the moment the city purchased the lines and comsolidated them. In fact, the first BoT commissioner thought the lines were junk. Let’s say for the sake of argument I accept your weight dynamics for the line, the problem of declining ridership and increasing costs of operations would still have to be overcome. And from past events, we know that was financially unfeasible. So any of those modifications (Which wasn’t included in the 68 Plan For Action anyway.) would have been likely put off for another decade, putting the MTA in the dilemma of putting more money into what was basically a shuttle line or having more frequent shutdowns and interruptions for safety reasons. The solid brick wall one has to face is that it was an obsolete line whose existence stopped making sense once Manhattan service was discontinued. With losses at 1 million dollars per year, no responsible railroad company could justify it; other lines have been discontinued for lesser reasons.
@@dangelo1369 Thanks for the feedback. No arguments on the financials and economics as stated-we're just discussing the difficulty of the rebuild if the newly appointed MTA had the willpower to do so. Do you have any disagreements or points of contention with the technical breakdown? Here's a clearer breakdown of our points for accuracy: 1. Line Rebuild: We stated that the line was partly rebuilt in 1914, with the bents from the 1887-1891 sections being replaced. 2. Bent Placement: The bents were not centered on the tracks, creating an overhang that led to structural sway with the introduction of newer equipment, specifically the R12 and R14 cars with their four motors and faster acceleration, along with their dynamic braking setup. 3. Handling Composites: The line was able to handle Composites (73,000 Lbs +) on all trackage north of the Second Avenue Bridge. Regarding reports, we were primarily referencing Colonel S.H. Bingham's report, which focused on the Manhattan section’s structural and signal block upgrade needs. Another relevant report was published by Fordham Press. We have the 1968 Plan for Action along with the replacement Park Ave line Accuracy is crucial for us as an engineering and history channel. If you let us know the specific report, we'll track it down if we don't already have it. Additionally, we have the structural prints for the Bronx Third Avenue line and can post them if needed. Thanks again for the feedback!
I enjoyed the music of you doing the video and second and Thrid Avenue Elevated lines back then . Keep bringing up the 8 and ninth Ave Elevated lines because these two lines could definitely help a lots of people and the bus operators and the 2 5 lines and the BX 15 BX 41 buses Bx 19 buses. I understand exactly what you are saying. I was not trying to argue with or nobody. I was just encouraged you. Your opinions and I have my opinions . I know you wish the second Ave and Thrid Avenue Elevated line running today without tairing it down and using the R62AS R62S on the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line.
Interesting.
Very well presented topic on the station's complexity
Thanks so much tough to balance detail and time. You want to provide information but you don't want to bore people at the same time. Happy resonated it more to come. And thank you for the support.
Big time major history made right here!!!
This Thrid and second Ave Elevated subway lines brings us back memories. I liked when you explained how the second and ninth and 3rd Avenue Elevated lines were built over decades ago.
Hey guys it's Brian Power. Phone is jacked up. Hope everybody is well.
This is a beautiful Thrid and second Ave old Elevated lines to 129 street elevated. Thrid Avenue Elevated definitely has a chance in the south Bronx Tremont Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx again. Never rebuild another elevated line in Manhattan again. In a way I was disappointed and very unhappy about the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line had to be taken down in the south Bronx and Manhattan. It was meant for the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line in Manhattan to be torn down because they had talk buildings and other people were complaining about it made to much noise in Manhattan. What they definitely should of did is to shutdown the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down for a little while until they do a complete inspections over haul trestles track frames and girldles and beams and stations. The BX 55 buses should of had stayed until the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line was 100 percent complete instead of shutting down third Avenue Elevated line down in the Bronx for good. Like In Brooklyn or Queens some where they had the whole entire elevated still structures up without no train tracks just a scelliton elevated structures .
Who would build the Thrid Avenue Elevated line in Manhattan in the first place? They definitely should of build it under ground on Thrid Avenue to south Ferry and leave the Thrid Avenue Elevated structures in the Bronx. Millions and millions of people are still processing about the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line shouldn't not have never been taken down in the south Bronx and still disappointed and very unhappy about it. I totally disagree with the lower riderships and and the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line had made to much noise because that's a dam lie. The Two reasons why they were fusted the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line to come down because. One they let the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line get it to rusted with out taking care of the heavy metal steel structures. Two Governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses had hated Elevated lines and they could not stand for no extra elevated lines to be the way they are now. Governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses had fusted the TA workers to tair down the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down. They know dam well it was a crime tairing down the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down.
Lets understand history planing for the line go back to the early 1870s, when plans for the Third and Sixth Avenue elevated lines were first laid out. Back then, underground rail was practically unheard of in the United States, even though Alfred E. Beach had secretly constructed a short-lived pneumatic passenger railway beneath Broadway.
However, the technology for a full-fledged subway system was still decades away. London's early underground lines were steam-powered, highlighting the challenges of operating trains beneath the city streets. So, when the Third Avenue El was built in 1878, following the model of the Ninth Avenue El, it made perfect sense to go with an elevated design.
It wasn't until a quarter-century later, with the signing of Contract 1 for the Interborough Rapid Transit Company (IRT) in 1900, that the technological advancements necessary for a subway finally arrived.
Once Manhattan service was discontinued, the 3rd Ave el no longer made any financial sense to continue.
The Bronx itself was in decline from the 1950’s in terms of economic activity and population. From 169th street to Fordham Road there were serious losses of business and infrastructure; the Bronx Borough Hall and the Criminal Court relocated to 161st street and Grand Concourse by the 60’s
The elevated lines were antiquated; they couldn’t support the newer, heavier cars without substantial structural reinforcement which the MTA wasn’t willing to invest in an obsolete technology.
The original plan was to replace the elevated lines with subways which would connect to 125th street and Lexington Ave lines. Unfortunately, the city’s financial problems in the 70’s prevented those plans from becoming reality.
@@dangelo1369 There is no argument regarding the economic conditions of the South Bronx moving into the 1970s. However, we feel that the intensity of the work needed to bring the Bronx sections of the line up to par is sometimes exaggerated in fan and enthusiast circles. It’s important to note that the bents for the 1887-91 sections of the line were replaced to support the downward weight of both the local and middle tracks.
For context, the weight limits of the Trenton Y column Manhattan sections were 64,000 lbs for Tracks 1 and 2 and just north of 70,000 lbs for the middle track, all based on AW0 weight with no passengers. The issue wasn’t the downward weight but rather the post-war equipment's increased acceleration to 2.5 mph/s, combined with dynamic braking.
When the line was rebuilt in 1914, the width of the bents wasn’t adjusted to be closer to the curves, which essentially created an overhang of the local tracks compared to Dual Contract builds. In those, the bents are either centered with the local tracks (as seen on the Jerome and White Plains Road lines) or entirely outside the local tracks (like the Contract 1 builds and the Astoria line). Think of a person spreading their legs wider for balance; if someone pushes from the front or back, you're better braced with your legs centered or wider apart rather than closer together. This forward and backward force is akin to a faster accelerating and braking train, similar to a rug sliding underfoot. The weight distributed linear with flexible joints every few stingers.
These factors changed with the dynamic loads. From the prints we’ve seen, the dead and live loads were adequate. Bent replacement or shifting in places like Tremont and bracing for a tower setup around the Cross Bronx, which pushed 30 feet in height, would have been beneficial. More work was needed for the BMT Jamaica line, which required strengthening again in the 1980s and 90s, an older section of line than the Bronx Third by a year or two.
The heaviest loads on the line were the Composites pre-subway opening, running the lower section of the Bronx Third Avenue line along with the Second Avenue line in Manhattan. The motor cars were 80,000 lbs plus. After 1916, when they came to the Els, they were 73,000 lbs with no trailer cars, which is heavier than the current class of cars. The middle track was used for layups south of Tremont, so the structure could hold three 6-7 car Composites on each track. We did a breakdown of this on our Facebook group, and I’ll find and post it.
@@Subways_io I disagree, mainly from the reports of the MTA itself. The plan all along was to tear down the els from the moment the city purchased the lines and comsolidated them. In fact, the first BoT commissioner thought the lines were junk.
Let’s say for the sake of argument I accept your weight dynamics for the line, the problem of declining ridership and increasing costs of operations would still have to be overcome. And from past events, we know that was financially unfeasible. So any of those modifications (Which wasn’t included in the 68 Plan For Action anyway.) would have been likely put off for another decade, putting the MTA in the dilemma of putting more money into what was basically a shuttle line or having more frequent shutdowns and interruptions for safety reasons.
The solid brick wall one has to face is that it was an obsolete line whose existence stopped making sense once Manhattan service was discontinued. With losses at 1 million dollars per year, no responsible railroad company could justify it; other lines have been discontinued for lesser reasons.
@@dangelo1369 Thanks for the feedback. No arguments on the financials and economics as stated-we're just discussing the difficulty of the rebuild if the newly appointed MTA had the willpower to do so. Do you have any disagreements or points of contention with the technical breakdown?
Here's a clearer breakdown of our points for accuracy:
1. Line Rebuild: We stated that the line was partly rebuilt in 1914, with the bents from the 1887-1891 sections being replaced.
2. Bent Placement: The bents were not centered on the tracks, creating an overhang that led to structural sway with the introduction of newer equipment, specifically the R12 and R14 cars with their four motors and faster acceleration, along with their dynamic braking setup.
3. Handling Composites: The line was able to handle Composites (73,000 Lbs +) on all trackage north of the Second Avenue Bridge.
Regarding reports, we were primarily referencing Colonel S.H. Bingham's report, which focused on the Manhattan section’s structural and signal block upgrade needs. Another relevant report was published by Fordham Press. We have the 1968 Plan for Action along with the replacement Park Ave line Accuracy is crucial for us as an engineering and history channel. If you let us know the specific report, we'll track it down if we don't already have it. Additionally, we have the structural prints for the Bronx Third Avenue line and can post them if needed. Thanks again for the feedback!
Wonderful video. Well done! But, please-lose the”music.”
We’ve got you covered the Narration only version should be in the descriptions. Thanks for the kind words happy you enjoyed.
Keep bringing back the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line footages
I enjoyed the music of you doing the video and second and Thrid Avenue Elevated lines back then . Keep bringing up the 8 and ninth Ave Elevated lines because these two lines could definitely help a lots of people and the bus operators and the 2 5 lines and the BX 15 BX 41 buses Bx 19 buses. I understand exactly what you are saying. I was not trying to argue with or nobody. I was just encouraged you. Your opinions and I have my opinions . I know you wish the second Ave and Thrid Avenue Elevated line running today without tairing it down and using the R62AS R62S on the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line.
I pray 🙏 to God that you keep doing the Thrid and ninth Ave Elevated line footages because you do a great job on this.