Always a complex topic and just not covered in most voiceover classes. Just to remind people...you do have overhead. You still need to keep the lights on and put food on the table. You need to save for retirement. You need to upgrade your equipment and software. You need to pay for your high speed Internet connection. You have marketing and bookkeeping and general business costs. Don't discount. Great to use the printed rate cards of places like V-dot-C and now the GVAA rate guide. Think about projects as having shelf-life and eyeballs. Ask about usage. If it is going to be shown one time to a group of 10, maybe you can discount. But if your voice is trying to convince that group of 10 to spend 10 million dollars, then don't discount. You need to ask enough questions to fully understand the scope of the project. Ask to see scripts. If it is marketing, it is always more valuable. Don't give away the store. And be prepared to walk away from a job if it doesn't pay enough.
Cheers for the Video! Excuse me for butting in, I would love your initial thoughts. Have you considered - Proutklarton Falling Income Plan (search on google)? It is a great one off guide for making money with voice over jobs without the hard work. Ive heard some awesome things about it and my work colleague after many years got amazing success with it.
I'm late to the commentary, but you missed the point. When you collect a paycheck or a fee in your day to day work, that is what covers your overhead. He isn't saying he doesn't have overhead, he's saying he doesn't have ADDITIONAL overhead like what a business with a website, employees, marketing team, etc, have. Similar to places that are able to give better prices because they don't have a brick and mortar location(s). This is commonly understood, and it was presented just fine in the video. Your understanding or comprehension was a bit lacking, though.
Here's the thing. You've done more than teach me a little about how to operate the DA2 and deal a little with clients. You've motivated me to WANT to record something great. You've made me want to be better. That's so cool.
What you're doing is called "anchoring" and is a very solid strategy, used by almost everyone who sells something. And I agree, it's completely ethical, particularly because you're anchoring to a *real* price point, not a made-up number.
Having a background in design and dealing with clients back then, this makes total sense! Ironically, I just cleaned off my desk to get situated with my new Mac mini, microphone, etc. and right after, someone sent a txt asking what I would charge for an intro! 😳😝
It's so refreshing to see a straight forward and non-BS answer to this very impotant question. Thank you Mike and may your calender be overflowed with gigs.
Mike, I am a totally new to the world of VO but you have done a great deal to educating me! It happens too often to new people being taken advantage of but learning from your videos certainly helps and to those of you in the comments below thank you as well I have read them and taken plenty of notes. Now lets "Go record something Amazing!"
Just a short message to let you know, I am from Taiwan , and you have a fan here! you are great and love your honesty way to express all the detail in the business, thank you for sharing with us!
This sounds similar to freelance graphic design work: send a contract with payment and feedback deadlines and fair out clauses, expect a down payment before starting, send a watermarked low res finished image, get the email in writing saying they approve the final product, wait for the last payment, then send the high res file.
Thank you! I have seen several youtube voice actor channels saying your first many VO gigs should always be for free in exchange for a written testimonial. As someone who wants to be in this field someday and works as a musician, free work is never a good idea. This is why, as a musician, people are always trying to hire me and my colleagues for exposure, or worse yet, ask me to pay to play somewhere for exposure. It kills industries when the clients know they can get an almost passible product for free from a poor newbie.
Its often so hard to find a mentor for careers in general, even more so nowadays. Its been 3 years since you made this video but its still helping young folks like me. Can't thank you enough
hey ,if anyone else is searching for finding voice over jobs try Ailyahwan Easy Dominator (should be on google have a look ) ? Ive heard some decent things about it and my neighbor got amazing success with it.
Excellent Video! Forgive me for chiming in, I would love your initial thoughts. Have you researched - Proutklarton Clean Earning Plan (erm, check it on google should be there)? It is a good one off guide for making big money by setting up a voice over business minus the hard work. Ive heard some awesome things about it and my work buddy finally got excellent results with it.
I wish I knew you when I was a Producer! You sound like a pleasure to work with. Rates are not only important to us as V.O. artists but to the Industry itself. These sites that say " charge 5 dollars or 40 dollars a pop" are bad for the profession as is. Thanks for the " sound" advice!
BOOTH JUNKIE! You're the man! Your short but concise tutorial answered HOURS of research that was my next step in my budding VO career. This particular tutorial is priceless! Thanks again friend!
One thing I've learned from being an outdoor-skills instructor for many years...EXPOSURE is what you die of in the woods. Don't accept it as payment. You will die of starvation, cold, and dehydration; the symptoms of exposure. No money = no food, rent, utilities...slow, painful death. If someone offers you exposure as payment, KILL them. (haha, not really) But DO take it as the insult that it is. And think about killing them.
Thank you for this, and for all your content!! Been in the voice acting world for about a year and you've been an invaluable resource in navigating so many factors of this business. And it's all delivered in a very enjoyable way! Much appreciated sir.
Hi Mike, Another awesome video! As I was watching I was thinking there might be some folks who would benefit from a quick tutorial on what "broadcast quality" is/means. What do you think?
thanks for the tutorial you have no idea how much you've helped me! was wondering if you'd consider making a video about how to find jobs at the entry level just to get the feet wet with some work? much appreciated!
Thank you for this! Everyone tip-toes around this issue and I can never get a straight answer. Your channel has helped me tremendously, and this advice, especially, is golden.
One time i had to correct my script 3 times and the guy did not charged me a dime from it. On the other hand you sir would have milked the day light out of me LOL but I understand your point of view and it makes sense.
Can't thank you enough for wisdom. As I am just getting my educational feet wet in this business and need all the help I can get before diving in head first. Thank you!!!!!
Hey bud, I found your channel last week and just wanted to express my appreciation for your content. I'm in the throes of getting set up to launch a new RUclips channel (this account is just random personal stuff basically, so not this one) and I'm wanting to get it off on the right foot. One of the things I'm (perhaps overly) concerning myself with is the audio quality and your channel has been giving me good info and examples of what to do and a little bit of what my starter kit should be, even on my super tight budget. I'm not doing explicitly voiceover work, but your content has still been mega helpful in making some decisions as well as the push to just -make something-. Even if it isn't perfect, even if I don't have a multi-thousand dollar audio kit, etc. I'm looking forward to checking out whatever new videos you upload.
Thank you, this was very helpful. Can I make on suggested chainge to your pitch? I recomend that you tell them what they get before you tell them the rate. That way they are not focused on the expence before they learn what you are offering.
Finally, 'Thank You So Much' just starting out as a Professional Voice Actor, and just gathering info that I need and that was two of my main questions answered, right there, your an amazing talent and have a great RUclips channel, thanks again.
Now when you say "extra fee" do you mean you get another full session fee? (I'm guessing so seeing as you would need to redo the recording completely most times, just wanted clarification.) Also would you recommend applying these rates for VA's who are really early on in their endeavor, or would you suggest starting low/signing on with a site like voices .com?
Hey, Mike. So, do you also take, for example, the GVAA rate sheet and knock 15% off of that too? How in relation to union jobs do you rate your work? I'm asking because the GVAA rate sheet is nicely detailed and, except for the rates, it seems a good point of reference when quoting something really specific.
Thank you very much for this information!!! I'm curious. How much would you recommend charging for pickups? Do you calculate them based on the percentage of/proportionally to how much of the script they comprise?
I haven't started yet so I'm nervous to charge someone close to normal rates when I have little experience. I may just need to practice alot with editing my recordings
@coacharielandersson hahaha ehhnm...I've given up on that dream due to AI taking over the industry, becoming a bit flooded. So I decided to pursue something else, but I've been coming up with every excuse in the book not to do it. I want to make a youtube channel and upload videos. Essentially becoming a "influencer" but an actual positive and real one, haha. How are things going for you so far?
Great video, but could you elaborate on the differences in licensing for different platforms like tv, radio, web, ect. When do the rates differ, and why. Great stuff you make, just found it a couple of days ago and have binge watched so many videos of your. :)
I got offered like $75.00 for a 22,000 words audiobook... So yea.. I'm kind of a big deal now... (All seriousness, I was close to accepting this, as I've never been hired thus far, but was advised against it)
I hope you thanked that person who advised you against taking that gig profusely. People who want to under-pay that much are typically nightmare clients, don't know what they're doing and will blame you for their shortcomings, and/or are bargain hunters, and bargain hunters tend to be pains in the ass to deal with in any profession.
What happens when they pay the half, but they don't like the end result? For example, if they think the voiceover you've done didn't quite catch the emotion they were looking for, and they start saying "emphasize this part more" or "read this part with a more sad voice" etc? Do you rerecord for no additional fee or do you charge? Is there a way to avoid such issues?
I think you should do your best to give them what they want in a session. But it's OK to know your limitations. If the writer or director wants me to sound exactly like James Earl Jones (for 150.00), they're not being real. And I'll tell them I'm not the voice they're looking for rather than waste time.
I know this is an old comment but here is my humble opinion do with it as you like. 1st I would say it depends on how much time/work it will take you to rerecord it. Can you do it and still make decent money? Yes, then you probably should not charge more. No, then maybe you can negotiate for a small overcharge maybe 10-20%. 2nd Is someone to blame? By that i mean did you misunderstand want the client wanted or did the client not explain it properly. Yes, whoever "messed up" should "pay" for it. No, then your left with point 1. 3rd To avoid any issues like that it's to make sure you have all the information you need before you start/accept the contract. 4th Voice clips are very flexible in the sens that depending on how long they are you can send 3, 5, 10 versions of the same recording(but with variations to cover different emotions and deliveries) without wasting to much time and then they can chose between those. As a closing thought better to make less money and have a happy customer who is likely to come back than make more money and have a customer that wont.
Hey Mike, first of all Thank You! I've finally started picking up work and it feels great to really start seeing returns, in no small part due to your help. But I do have a question about pay still. Last week I met with two clients working as partners that want me to do their audio book and web series voice overs. Great, but they want to pay royalties, not commission, and these guys are new to doing business as well so they likely don't know their way around the block either. So I'm not sure A) how much to charge for a percentage and B) how to make sure I don't get stiffed. What's the order of business for this sort of deal? Or should I just insist on commission and deal with losing this client if they are unwilling or unable to pay? Thanks again for all that you do!
Thank you for your words of wisdom and experience. .Question for you ..When doing voice over for client do you add your own music ect for them? Thank you again.)
I'm not a voice actor but this is a great basic business advice explained clearly.
Same here, but I knew the advice he'd give would translate well for the thing that I do. (and I can just listen to him speaking on any topic).
Always a complex topic and just not covered in most voiceover classes. Just to remind people...you do have overhead. You still need to keep the lights on and put food on the table. You need to save for retirement. You need to upgrade your equipment and software. You need to pay for your high speed Internet connection. You have marketing and bookkeeping and general business costs. Don't discount. Great to use the printed rate cards of places like V-dot-C and now the GVAA rate guide. Think about projects as having shelf-life and eyeballs. Ask about usage. If it is going to be shown one time to a group of 10, maybe you can discount. But if your voice is trying to convince that group of 10 to spend 10 million dollars, then don't discount. You need to ask enough questions to fully understand the scope of the project. Ask to see scripts. If it is marketing, it is always more valuable. Don't give away the store. And be prepared to walk away from a job if it doesn't pay enough.
Cheers for the Video! Excuse me for butting in, I would love your initial thoughts. Have you considered - Proutklarton Falling Income Plan (search on google)? It is a great one off guide for making money with voice over jobs without the hard work. Ive heard some awesome things about it and my work colleague after many years got amazing success with it.
I'm late to the commentary, but you missed the point. When you collect a paycheck or a fee in your day to day work, that is what covers your overhead. He isn't saying he doesn't have overhead, he's saying he doesn't have ADDITIONAL overhead like what a business with a website, employees, marketing team, etc, have. Similar to places that are able to give better prices because they don't have a brick and mortar location(s). This is commonly understood, and it was presented just fine in the video. Your understanding or comprehension was a bit lacking, though.
Here's the thing.
You've done more than teach me a little about how to operate the DA2 and deal a little with clients. You've motivated me to WANT to record something great. You've made me want to be better. That's so cool.
What you're doing is called "anchoring" and is a very solid strategy, used by almost everyone who sells something. And I agree, it's completely ethical, particularly because you're anchoring to a *real* price point, not a made-up number.
Having a background in design and dealing with clients back then, this makes total sense! Ironically, I just cleaned off my desk to get situated with my new Mac mini, microphone, etc. and right after, someone sent a txt asking what I would charge for an intro! 😳😝
It's so refreshing to see a straight forward and non-BS answer to this very impotant question. Thank you Mike and may your calender be overflowed with gigs.
Mike, I am a totally new to the world of VO but you have done a great deal to educating me! It happens too often to new people being taken advantage of but learning from your videos certainly helps and to those of you in the comments below thank you as well I have read them and taken plenty of notes. Now lets "Go record something Amazing!"
I'm not a voice actor by any stretch of the imagination, but I can see this being applicable to all sorts of commission based businesses.
Just a short message to let you know, I am from Taiwan , and you have a fan here! you are great and love your honesty way to express all the detail in the business, thank you for sharing with us!
This sounds similar to freelance graphic design work: send a contract with payment and feedback deadlines and fair out clauses, expect a down payment before starting, send a watermarked low res finished image, get the email in writing saying they approve the final product, wait for the last payment, then send the high res file.
Thank you! I have seen several youtube voice actor channels saying your first many VO gigs should always be for free in exchange for a written testimonial. As someone who wants to be in this field someday and works as a musician, free work is never a good idea. This is why, as a musician, people are always trying to hire me and my colleagues for exposure, or worse yet, ask me to pay to play somewhere for exposure. It kills industries when the clients know they can get an almost passible product for free from a poor newbie.
Its often so hard to find a mentor for careers in general, even more so nowadays. Its been 3 years since you made this video but its still helping young folks like me. Can't thank you enough
You've been extremely helpful with your advice.
Thank you!
hey ,if anyone else is searching for finding voice over jobs try Ailyahwan Easy Dominator (should be on google have a look ) ? Ive heard some decent things about it and my neighbor got amazing success with it.
Excellent Video! Forgive me for chiming in, I would love your initial thoughts. Have you researched - Proutklarton Clean Earning Plan (erm, check it on google should be there)? It is a good one off guide for making big money by setting up a voice over business minus the hard work. Ive heard some awesome things about it and my work buddy finally got excellent results with it.
Very nice, thank you. And it looks like you're in the booth I just built.
Thanks man, very helpful. You're one of the best mentors I've ever had.
I am new to the business and yes this guy is Amazing! He has been very helpful
you rock ! why can't the rest of the business be as wise and direct as you .... thanks!
By far the best advice I've seen in video or written form. I wouldn't expect any less from you though :)
I wish I knew you when I was a Producer! You sound like a pleasure to work with. Rates are not only important to us as V.O. artists but to the Industry itself. These sites that say " charge 5 dollars or 40 dollars a pop" are bad for the profession as is. Thanks for the " sound" advice!
BOOTH JUNKIE! You're the man! Your short but concise tutorial answered HOURS of research that was my next step in my budding VO career. This particular tutorial is priceless! Thanks again friend!
I'm in love with your voice.
One thing I've learned from being an outdoor-skills instructor for many years...EXPOSURE is what you die of in the woods. Don't accept it as payment. You will die of starvation, cold, and dehydration; the symptoms of exposure. No money = no food, rent, utilities...slow, painful death. If someone offers you exposure as payment, KILL them. (haha, not really) But DO take it as the insult that it is. And think about killing them.
Great info! Would love to hear your take on working non-union vs going union.
A simple way to explain something that a lot of others get very hung up on! Thanks!
You are a GREAT teacher. Thanks for this channel and these training videos.
Thank you for the guidance on all my startup questions 🌹
Thank you for this, and for all your content!! Been in the voice acting world for about a year and you've been an invaluable resource in navigating so many factors of this business. And it's all delivered in a very enjoyable way! Much appreciated sir.
Hi Mike,
Another awesome video! As I was watching I was thinking there might be some folks who would benefit from a quick tutorial on what "broadcast quality" is/means. What do you think?
Always time well spent watching Booth Junkie videos. Thanks a bunch Mike.
What about diffusion rights ? Doesn't the price differ depending on how long the (for exemple) ad is broadcasted ?
thanks for the tutorial you have no idea how much you've helped me! was wondering if you'd consider making a video about how to find jobs at the entry level just to get the feet wet with some work? much appreciated!
Seconded
Third!
Jason Ryan Brenner Really? That's awesome advice thanks!
Moving forward this is priceless information.
Had I known what to properly charge previously, I could have paid off our car already 😂 Lessons learned
Thank you for this! Everyone tip-toes around this issue and I can never get a straight answer. Your channel has helped me tremendously, and this advice, especially, is golden.
Thank you so much for all of your insights and valuable advice! Soooo helpful!!!
As an up-and-coming VO artist, this was incredibly helpful. I will be checking out the rest of your channel. Thank you!
One time i had to correct my script 3 times and the guy did not charged me a dime from it. On the other hand you sir would have milked the day light out of me LOL but I understand your point of view and it makes sense.
mind blowingly simple straight forward advice - glad i stumbled on this.
Can't thank you enough for wisdom. As I am just getting my educational feet wet in this business and need all the help I can get before diving in head first. Thank you!!!!!
Hey bud, I found your channel last week and just wanted to express my appreciation for your content. I'm in the throes of getting set up to launch a new RUclips channel (this account is just random personal stuff basically, so not this one) and I'm wanting to get it off on the right foot. One of the things I'm (perhaps overly) concerning myself with is the audio quality and your channel has been giving me good info and examples of what to do and a little bit of what my starter kit should be, even on my super tight budget. I'm not doing explicitly voiceover work, but your content has still been mega helpful in making some decisions as well as the push to just -make something-. Even if it isn't perfect, even if I don't have a multi-thousand dollar audio kit, etc. I'm looking forward to checking out whatever new videos you upload.
I'm thinking up a series on less expensive mics / setups, since I think a lot of people are in the same boat. Thanks for watching!
That'd be a very popular series. Thank you for considering making it.
Great recommendations! Thanx Muchly, Mike!
1:51 You said, "Doo doo" 😂💩 (I'm sorry I couldn't resist!)
This was incredibly straightforward and helpful.
Thank you, this was very helpful.
Can I make on suggested chainge to your pitch? I recomend that you tell them what they get before you tell them the rate. That way they are not focused on the expence before they learn what you are offering.
Excellent video Mike say it like it is!
You are right my friend
I was just about to pm you on RUclips about this exact issue. Lol. Thanks for the video.
Love this video! I really enjoy your personality, too.
This is great advice. As a beginner I would love to know where to even begin to find voice over work? Anyone here have recommendations?
Finally, 'Thank You So Much' just starting out as a Professional Voice Actor, and just gathering info that I need and that was two of my main questions answered, right there, your an amazing talent and have a great RUclips channel, thanks again.
Awesome 👍
Great video! It's always great for people to get advice on the day-to-day aspects of a business.
Hi, this was 6 years ago. Could you do an updated video? Everything is crazy now, I assume voice over fees are as well????
That was incredibly clear, helpful and perfect. Thank you.
I love that you referred to World-Voices.org (WOVO).
I knew there was a good reason why I subscribed to you!! Another great video ...... Cheers!
Very helpful thought-train. Thank you!
Thanks a lot for your insight!
Great guidance! you answered my exact question. Thank you.
Super helpful!
Excellent advice, Mike. Thank you for your great guidance.
Good sound advice Mike, no pun intended LOL. Very helpful! Thanks so much, your awesome!
Thanks so much this was a great help.
GREAT VID..!! Do you do coaching?
Thanks for these videos, Mike. They are super appreciated. Keep up the good work!
Now when you say "extra fee" do you mean you get another full session fee? (I'm guessing so seeing as you would need to redo the recording completely most times, just wanted clarification.)
Also would you recommend applying these rates for VA's who are really early on in their endeavor, or would you suggest starting low/signing on with a site like voices .com?
Great advice. Balanced and fair.
Hey, Mike. So, do you also take, for example, the GVAA rate sheet and knock 15% off of that too? How in relation to union jobs do you rate your work? I'm asking because the GVAA rate sheet is nicely detailed and, except for the rates, it seems a good point of reference when quoting something really specific.
Thanks for this amazing advice. I hope to implement it soon!
I don't even do voice-over yet here I am. At this point I should make a demo reel and seek out gigs. Love ya, Mike.
Great advice, thanks for sharing.
Nice one BJ
lmao that first sentence hit me right at the heart haha thank you
Clear and Concise information. Thank you!
Thanks for the advices. I Will pasis it on m'y daughters who can record in a bunch of various languages.
What about contracts / forms?
Valuable info thank you.
I'm so happy I found your channel, you are AWESOME
Man this was exactly what I was looking for.
I want a Zoom H5 tutorial for voiceover videos next finding the levels and how to avoid clipping with the 416z
Thank you mate. Very useful
Do you offer coaching?
Amazingly useful advice! Appreciate it :-)
How much do you charge additionally if there is a change to the script?
Thank you very much for this information!!! I'm curious. How much would you recommend charging for pickups? Do you calculate them based on the percentage of/proportionally to how much of the script they comprise?
I haven't started yet so I'm nervous to charge someone close to normal rates when I have little experience. I may just need to practice alot with editing my recordings
I feel the same! How are things, now, 1 year later?
@coacharielandersson hahaha ehhnm...I've given up on that dream due to AI taking over the industry, becoming a bit flooded. So I decided to pursue something else, but I've been coming up with every excuse in the book not to do it. I want to make a youtube channel and upload videos. Essentially becoming a "influencer" but an actual positive and real one, haha. How are things going for you so far?
Great advice!
Super helpful! Thanks!
Great video, but could you elaborate on the differences in licensing for different platforms like tv, radio, web, ect. When do the rates differ, and why.
Great stuff you make, just found it a couple of days ago and have binge watched so many videos of your. :)
This was extremely helpful, thank you!!
Is this video about me? Haha. Thanks for all the great resources Mike!
I got offered like $75.00 for a 22,000 words audiobook... So yea.. I'm kind of a big deal now... (All seriousness, I was close to accepting this, as I've never been hired thus far, but was advised against it)
I hope you thanked that person who advised you against taking that gig profusely. People who want to under-pay that much are typically nightmare clients, don't know what they're doing and will blame you for their shortcomings, and/or are bargain hunters, and bargain hunters tend to be pains in the ass to deal with in any profession.
I believe that's one of the 48 laws of power.
Parsley which law of the 48?
That is truly incredible! Holy crap. $75 for a 22K-word audiobook? Unbelievable...Can I ask what company just so I know to stay away from them?
@@jebatman756 for everyones sake, and since its been 3 years since the comment was posted, hopefully that company is 6 feet under xD
What happens when they pay the half, but they don't like the end result? For example, if they think the voiceover you've done didn't quite catch the emotion they were looking for, and they start saying "emphasize this part more" or "read this part with a more sad voice" etc? Do you rerecord for no additional fee or do you charge? Is there a way to avoid such issues?
I think you should do your best to give them what they want in a session. But it's OK to know your limitations. If the writer or director wants me to sound exactly like James Earl Jones (for 150.00), they're not being real. And I'll tell them I'm not the voice they're looking for rather than waste time.
I know this is an old comment but here is my humble opinion do with it as you like.
1st I would say it depends on how much time/work it will take you to rerecord it. Can you do it and still make decent money? Yes, then you probably should not charge more. No, then maybe you can negotiate for a small overcharge maybe 10-20%.
2nd Is someone to blame? By that i mean did you misunderstand want the client wanted or did the client not explain it properly. Yes, whoever "messed up" should "pay" for it. No, then your left with point 1.
3rd To avoid any issues like that it's to make sure you have all the information you need before you start/accept the contract.
4th Voice clips are very flexible in the sens that depending on how long they are you can send 3, 5, 10 versions of the same recording(but with variations to cover different emotions and deliveries) without wasting to much time and then they can chose between those.
As a closing thought better to make less money and have a happy customer who is likely to come back than make more money and have a customer that wont.
Thank you
I use that strategy when selling my law services. Very effective. People understand it.
@boothjunkie my voice sucks. But voiceover is my passion. What do you suggest other than going into construction
Good stuff.
Great info!!
Hey Mike, first of all Thank You! I've finally started picking up work and it feels great to really start seeing returns, in no small part due to your help. But I do have a question about pay still.
Last week I met with two clients working as partners that want me to do their audio book and web series voice overs. Great, but they want to pay royalties, not commission, and these guys are new to doing business as well so they likely don't know their way around the block either.
So I'm not sure A) how much to charge for a percentage and B) how to make sure I don't get stiffed.
What's the order of business for this sort of deal? Or should I just insist on commission and deal with losing this client if they are unwilling or unable to pay?
Thanks again for all that you do!
So, how did your story end?
Thank you for your words of wisdom and experience. .Question for you ..When doing voice over for client do you add your own music ect for them? Thank you again.)
Great video!! So helpful :)
Do you have any written/online agreement for legal schmegal stuff with client, or indeed do they ever get you to sign stuff?