A NEW Rant About Pronunciation...and Spelling and Grammar
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Well, it had to happen. My first rant about pronunciation is buried somewhere in the video archive and, let's face it, no one is searching for it, so it's time for a refresher. Here is the original, in case you missed it: • Music Chat: A Rant Abo...
Excellent! Well done, Dave. My German teacher in college was from Hamburg. She pronounced it the same way we say hamburger. She claimed that when you pronounce names while speaking English, you should pronounce it in the English language manner.
An eternal dispute has arisen around the Argentinian composer Alberto Ginastera. His name isn’t of Spanish origin, but Italian. So, technically it should be Geenastera, with a hard G. However, when I was in Argentina, I met a friend of his daughter’s who always insisted he pronounced it the Spanish way: with the G like an H sound (or J in Spanish). Wikipedia claims the opposite to be true and he preferred the Catalan pronunciation which is the same as Italian. He apparently didn’t care that much. Both versions are acceptable, in that case. Argentina has always been a melting pot of ethnicities and there are many Italian speakers (such as the pope), German speakers and a huge Jewish population. This sets them apart from other South American countries. His dad was Spanish and his mom was Italian. Is anyone thoroughly confused now? Me too.
I would like to formally enter a motion to retitle this video “I Was Right, and That Was It.”
That should be the logo on Dave's sweater.
If classical I am always right, if not, I am still.
Brilliant! Well said. Nobody even knows which way to go with Bernstein. It’s an endless rabbit hole that deviates from the commentary about the music itself, which you do with such brutal erudition! Bravo!
I take your first rant as the reference rant.
Respecting other cultures and languages enough to at least try to get the pronunciation somewhat correct is I think the right way to go. Understanding, too, that one like me (a Finnish speaker) will not get Chinese (a language with tones, unlike Finnish) perfectly is also understandable. But we can and IMO should always try. So good approximations on the Hungarian. :D Your pronunciation of Finnish names is often pretty close too! :O
Exactly. We can but try.
Before hurwitz I used to say Fricsay “Fricsay” but thanks to him I know it’s actually “Fricsay”.
I wish I'd said that.
Dear David !
I’m enjoying your programs and your lovely sense of humor (regardless of pronunciation😂). Honestly, who cares about this 😅
When I first discovered your channel, one of the things that most impressed me was your ability to pronounce all these names in multiple languages. Even when they're just approximations, they're very good approximations. I really don't understand how anyone could attack you on your pronunciation, when it's clear that you already do better than 99% people.
Also, I must add that I'm a young person myself (26 years old) and English is not my first language (I'm French). However, I ALWAYS did my absolute best to express myself in the most intelligible way in English. I often double-check my comments with a translator. I make this effort and I'm proud of it. Because so many young (and not so young) people on the Internet indulge in the quasi-nihilistic trend of shitposting, which really pains me. I really feel at home on your channel because it's one of the rare places that preserves the value of comments.
I must commend your written English; it is extraordinarily eloquent and much nicer than what the average native-speaker usually cobbles together.
I agree wholeheartedly on your spelling comments. BTW, thanks for teaching us the correct pronunciation of Fricsay. I googled it in the beginning when i just started to follow you. Keep up the great work, Dave! 🎼🎶🎶🎶
I came here for the music, not to learn languages. Thank you Dave for sharing your knowledge in that witty and funny and entertaining way.
Counterpoint: there are several names that I heard from you for the first time. If you didn’t pronounce “Fricsay” correctly, for example, then I would have learned it wrong too. When you show that you don’t know how to pronounce a name (e.g. “Cluytens”), that’s helpful too - then I know to check elsewhere how to pronounce it. But when you pronounce something wrong without doubt or correction, there will be people who have never heard that name pronounced before who will learn it incorrectly.
Such is the way of the world. Who cares?
Probably, few of your viewers do.
Your rant on a social media platform what you are expecting from others is just epic.@@DavesClassicalGuide
As regards Antal Doráti, when he was being interviewed by Martin Bookspan, he said that, though in Hungarian his name would be pronounced "DO-ra-a-ti" (with the accent on the first syllable but with the second syllable lengthened), he advocated "the Italian pronunciation" (with the accent on the second syllable) because most English speakers, being unfamiliar with long unaccented syllables, would pronounce it "DOR-uh-ty" "like that Irish name" (Doherty).
Thank you, especially for the grammar part. I'm always trying to raise people's awareness for these things, particularly my students, and so many times they don't seem to care.
A justified rant! Given what this channel offers - a seemingly bottomless fount of edifying and entertaining knowledge and opinion, presented daily at no cost to the viewer - I couldn’t imagine commenting on the delivery with anything other than respect and admiration.
I wonder if it’s mostly newcomers to the channel who find themselves compelled to weigh in on pronunciations.
I love your channel. English is not my first language. I have started to write comments on Book Tube just to practice writing in English. Some of the videos are such fun, so maybe my way of learning is not a bad idea. I'm truly sorry for the terrible mistakes I make all the time.
Looks pretty good to me--better than lots of native English speakers. Thanks for your effort!
I basically agree with this (even though I've had my last name mispronounced my entire life) because Mr. Hurwitz knows more about classical music than the vast majority of us ever will, and he's highly entertaining to boot. However, my local dedicated classical music station has an announcer who pronounces Scriabin SCARA-bean, Moldau as Mahl-doe, and Kodaly as Koe-DAILY - to name but a few. Do I write him a letter? It's like fingernails on a blackboard for me, and he's not getting any better. Or do I just laugh and roll my eyes?
That gets me too as presenters should know better. We have 2 national classical stations in the UK.
BBC Radio 3 has well educated music loving presenters who take care of pronunciation as they respect the music.
However Classic FM run a sort of mish-mash playlist of only 300 pieces and the presenters are ex -celebrities from other TV programs hired just for name visibility and they do not really have in depth musical knowledge 😊
I totally agree with you David. This is one of your best videos ever. Thanks and greetings from Argentina.
Much enjoyed the rich, ripe fruit of your cerebration.
How fecund this channel is, fat with honeyed sap!
We've been down this road before, haven't we. I will never forget a NY Philharmonic intermission interview that Jim Fassett did with Jean Casadesus. Several minutes of it were spent on the proper pronunciation of the family name. Jean seemed amused and suggested several ways to say it, but said it really didn't matter; Robert, Gaby, and he were perfectly happy with one saying it the way one felt most comfortable. Fini. The end.
I only hope for a spelling close enough to search successfully on streaming services. I never get close enough from pronunciation, particularly when it is correct.😅
My bugbear has always been spellcheck trying to correct my British English with American English. No thanks.
I spent 40 years introducing classical music on the radio, most of it under the guidance of a guy who did all he could to see that we--and he--pronounced everything as correctly as we could. To that end, my boss and mentor put taped notes on every LP (there's no room on CD booklets!), so that we could at least come close. I knew from bitter experience that if I got it wrong, the only Hungarian or Finn or Czech for a couple hundred miles around would call and correct me! My boss assembled a whole shelf of Language-For-Tourists booklets so that we could consult them if we weren't quite sure. It's always annoying to be corrected on this stuff. And on top of that, a retired professor who was a big fan of our station spent years assembling a pronunciation guide for us. We made a real effort. (I got the job because I said "FIR-kush-ny" on my audition tape. Didn't even have an interview beforehand.) I could honestly say we did our best. And it still wasn't good enough for some listeners.
I read Rubinstein's memoirs, in which he says "Arthur" was just fine with him. I had occasion to phone a few living musicians how to pronounce their names, and they were happy to answer. They sometimes thanked me for wanting to put their music on the air.
I tend to view your pronunciations as a pupil because I've heard so many different opinions and it's just easier to use yours moving forward and my confidence level regarding you being correct is tops.
Two names I was absolutely butchering until I heard them stated by you are Christoph von Dohnányi and, of course, Ferenc Fricsay.
My favorite conductor's name and how it is pronounced is Neeme Järvi.
As always, it's a pleasure to see Mildred, but where is Finster? I hope he's well.
She's fine. She watches from her cat tree.
I'd like to thank you for correcting one of my mispronunciations! I'd been calling that Hungarian-born German conductor Ferenc Fricsay "FRICK-say," and I thank you for telling me it was actually "FREE-choy."
That is easy for me as my parents are Hungarian and "cs" is a diphthong pronounced as "ch".
However the first letter of my first name is pronounced in Hungary as "sh" but as I grew up in England I was called Sandor with "s" the English way no problem!
😄 Your point is well taken & understood -- and agreed: the primary objective is to communicate. I notice on many occasions, however, that you take pains pronounce foreign - or foreign origin - words with careful consideration to clarity and articulation; no heavy "american accent" there! French is one such example, difficult names (von Dohnanyi) are another. They come across very clearly and the message is well received!
As to Maestro Doráti (OR "Doráti Antal" for the magyar language purists) or Maestro Fricsay (Ok, "karmester Fricsay Ferenc" for aforementioned purists) I am sure we all agree that whether it's "FrItchai" or Frik-sai" it'll still be the same old Ferenc. Coming to think of, Dohnanyi was born in Hungary as well! Regards
I fully agree with your opinions in this rant. Well said David !
This and video about Beythoven's trumpets is best. Never dare criticize a critic. 😂
Now, say Gennady Rozhdestvensky three times real fast.
That's easy. It's purely phonetic.
I actually used to be heavily involved in a buzzer-based academic trivia game (similar to Jeopardy!) called quizbowl, where all kinds of obscure cultural figures from around the world were fair game to ask about, and the rules have ALWAYS been "you are correct if you say the right consonants and make any vowel sound in the places where vowels go." The game understands that you very easily could have been exposed to a topic just by reading it, or learning about it from a speaker with an accent (especially an American one!), but you still know exactly what matters. If you ever go watch any videos of national championship games, you will know that the material can be INCREDIBLY pedantic about making sure that phenomenally rigorous academic topics are properly identified, but they NEVER make correct pronunciation enter the equation, as long as you are close enough.
In Russian one might pronounce Shostakovich as Shos tak o vich with emphasis on the second syllable and it is fun to mess with my own and others minds as to the right way to communicate. It is likewise fun to be a pain in the butt. But you are right to refuse to be lured into asinine dialog when it doesn't serve the topic at hand.
What a beautiful cat
Thank you.
Not all of us are sinners in this way, Dave! I would NEVER correct someone‘s pronounciation of foreign words. And 99.9 % of us won‘t! - Take care! Harry (who is writing in a foreign language and knows how hard it can be!)
Hello Dave! I really laughed and had a great time watching this video. Are you planning to make a review on Yunchan Lim’s Debut album on Decca? I would love to hear your thoughts on it
Yes.
Hi Mildred! What is your favourite recording?
Meow.
In my city, we had a learned but somewhat overbearing critic who was upset at local classical radio announcers mispronouncing composers/artists. It all gets to be tedious.
There’s a great radio documentary where William Malloch interviewed musicians who played under Mahler. One gentleman from the New York Philharmonic referred to Tchaikovsky’s Sixth Symphony as the pathetic symphony and not the PA-th-tique. This guy played under Mahler when the music was new, so his authority trumps pronunciation.
An interesting rant. My main interests are music and wine so pronunciation of foreign names is a regular issue. Additionally I worked for 40 years in a multinational with regular contact with most European nations. My approach is to do my best to approximate to a correct pronunciation of place and people names, especially with the big four of western European languages, namely French, German, Spanish and Italian. The only one where I can confidently approach native pronunciation is French, but even here I avoid that in the middle of a sentence in English where it tends to interrupt the flow. When dealing with business colleagues and contacts, I usually asked how to pronounce their names, did my best to approximate to that as a matter of courtesy with variable results and especially sought to avoid gross errors such calling a Frenchman named Jean or Germain as if he were an English speaking woman named Jean or Germaine.
Of course, this is all common sense. We all try to get it right to the extent possible, but it's a whole different matter when you're (a) dealing with dead people or living ones who you can't ask, and (b) talking, not to them, but describing them to others. In that situation, we still try to get it right, but what matters most is being intelligible to your audience.
Funny and true rant. It’s completely of the point to start nonsense commenting on pronunciation. It reminds me about people correcting you on spelling and other stuff on twitter. When you are writing on a phone 📱…. With auto correct ✅ that’s constantly alters your text ….
Well said, Dave. And if I may add another argument, as a non-native English speaker I don't feel entitled to correct you on any pronounciation issues until I'm not able to pronounce English in the same perfect way you always do, a point I'm unfortunately still very far from.
I raise my glass to you sir!
As one who hosts lives concerts and a long running radio show, I always try to pronounce the names of the artists who I'm presenting or interviewing correctly, and I'm not ashamed to ask them several times if I forget. It's simply a sign of respect. On the other hand, when a listener writes to me criticizing how I pronounce Debussy or Szigeti, then I take Dave's attitude! And I'll never forget when I heard one of the many pompous sounding hosts on popular classical station pronounce Lenny's last name as if it was German, he said "Behrn-shtein." I swear to God I heard that!
My top 5 Dave's cycles:
1. Rants about pronunciation, spelling [and young people]
2. Haydn Symphony Cursade! [looking forward to no.80!]
3. If I could choose only one work by... [eagerly waiting for CPE Bach]
4. Random Reviews from overflow Room - Albinioni and Albeniz are coming!
5. Fabulous concert programs - (Ives symphonies maybe? or Penderecki?)
honorable mention:
0. Bach Cantata Schlep - I won't stop watching this channel until I see the episode about BWV 199
But Dave - I speak fluent Klingon* and passing Vulcan, so please don't mispronounce the titles of their native ritual planetary war dances.
(* - in Klingon, if it doesn't hurt your throat and the listener's ear, then you've misprounounced it.)
PS: Bravo!
Well said Sir.
Dat's grate, Dave. Stand furm... 🥴 The Rosicrucian Elocutionists Pedantry Sophisticationists are duly warned!
This comes up in the tennis world as well. I know for example, I am constantly butchering the names of the Chinese players. I try. Same in the music world. I try. Fail and try. And I agree about the English grammar. If you went to school in an English speaking country, and you cannot distinguish the differences between to, two and too? Well. Anyway. Happy Friday all.
Well said! - as was the Ferenc Fricsay (I'm learning Hungarian, for the fun of it). Dave could perhaps start up the US equivalent of the UK's Apostrophe Protection Society. I kid you not, this really exists.
Apostrophe Protection Society? Whos their president?
When I worked at a classical music station many years ago, we realized there was a practical reason NOT to try to pronounce names ‘correctly’. Listeners complained they didn't understand the names and couldn't identify the musicians! (especially the performers).
I appreciate all you do and say to help engage and enlighten us. Bravo!
Full disclosure: I have opinions about how to say “Pierre Boulez.”
I think he's stated his case pretty clear. It must be a challenge indeed to manage this chat whilst dealing with people going off the edge like that. The music and the musicians are the object of discussions, the rest is just not.
Magnificent. But I will follow Mildred’s example and make no comment 😅
Bravo!
I don’t think I’ve ever heard Andre Cluytens’ surname pronounced by anyone, anywhere. I’m still in the dark as to how to pronounce it.
Christoph von Dohnányi's first wife was previously married to Cluytens. Dohnanyi told me the name was pronounced clooy-tah(ng) (almost "clooy-tong"). I think. But I'm linguistically challenged.
Naturally, we all happily said "KLY-tnz" for years until the late-1970s fad of "correct" pronunciations...
Well, just try to put Cluytens in the google translator. The Dutch version is wrong because he's actually from Antwerp. Antwerpen for the fellow travelers from these parts, that is 😁Who cares indeed!
Get this man to 100k
“No no noooo it’s pronounced Bachhgggg not back.. “ Is what im dealing with, quite often really. I’m actually afraid to talk about him sometimes because I can’t gargle that ‘ch’ sound. They all know who I’m talking about so it always comes over as snobbism to me.
If you can "chhhh" to clear your throat, which most people can, then the "ch" in Bach shouldn't be too much of a problem.
@@ftumschk I’d be afraid to spit on someone if I have to gargle to pronounce a name though! 😂
@@deVriesOP125 You're too polite :)
I agree, it's silly to debate such topics. I am fluent in Chinese and every English speaker technically mispronounces every Chinese word (e.g. Beijing, Wang Yujia) but who gives a s**t, they are different languages. Language is used for communication. Keep up the great work sir!
Give'em Hell buddy 👍
I am bilingual Spanish-French and speak fluently German and I can tell you your pronunciation in these languages is always on point and charming.
When people correct others on the internet (about tiny mistakes in orthography or pronunciation) it is often not out of kindness, but to feel superior.
Believe it or not, there was a video in youtube, Sviatoslav Richter playing Haydn, and one of the comments was the six time-marks links, leading directly to the wrong notes of the performance.
You have a god of the piano playing live and you spend twenty minutes spotting the mistakes.
So sad.
OK, but how do I pronounce New York? Is it Noo Yark or Nue Yoork? Just kidding.
Best way to hear mispronounciations (did I spell this right?) is to listen to a college radio station where the announcers are students who just want to get into radio, but have no idea how to pronounce the names of classical composers. So CHOPIN becomes choppin, WAGNER becomes wag-ner and so forth. I've often wondered how they would pronounce JULIUS FUCIK? Luckily I never had the opportunity to hear this and am glad I never have. Another nice video, Dave !!!
We have a high school radio station in town that once said... "That was Wa-cheetah Lineman by Glen Campbell." Classic.
That didn't happen when I was running WJHU.
Dave, you were into classical music before your radio days, right? Most of these young students took the course just to get into radio. When they were scheduled to be on the air or filled in for someone, they were at wits end, but forged ahead anyway when they found out they were going to do a classical music spot. Hate to name names, but W.P.R.B.-FM 103.3 mhz (Princeton University) in New Jersey was a prime example back in the 1960s and 1970s especially on weekends. I'm out of range to hear the station now a days. Hopefully they have improved. KEEP THESE VIDEOS COMING .
The song must have been about a spotted cat.. yuk yuk
Heyy why dont you review youtube composers(or a better question, do you even listen to youtube composers?)? I could reccomend a few fun pieces if you wish :)
Life is too short. So far.
@@DavesClassicalGuide eh? what does that mean? ._.
As a friend of mine once said, "Maybe they majored in pronunciation." I find people like that insufferable.
John Adams is pretty easy for us USA-ians to get right on account of the second President. Beyond that, I forgive anyone their trespasses in whatever language. It is nice and polite to try to learn how to pronounce the names of friends or business associates, but I don’t think any of us is becoming bosom buddies with Ferenc Fricsay any time soon.
This video is pronounced "Screw you, pedants!" 🙂
Related gripes: It annoys me when people criticize me and others who don't type diacritical marks that are in the German, French and Spanish names. Furtwangler, Saint-Saens, Dvorak, Nunez -- it's perfectly readable and so what if the first is missing an umlaut and the others wrong. But in English, it's ok -we get it. Besides I use a Chromebook and have no idea whatsoever how to enter those special symbols. And I don't care.
Spelling: there are some sites that you try to search for Rachmaninoff. It comes back empty. But Rachmaninov is ok. Trouble is, Rachmaninoff spelled it Rachmaninoff in English. If that was good enough for him then it should be standard. Same story with Prokofieff - that's how he wrote it. Tchaikovsky is tricky since the Germans seem to like Tschaikowsky. Leonard Bernstein wrote Chaikovksy. Can't we just settle it: Tchaikovsky.
Pronunciation: I try to get it right and have frequently asked native speakers how some names should be said and it wouldn't hurt anyone to try to be more accurate. Biggest error out there: Szell. So often it's "Zell", but the conductor himself said "Sell". Everyone like to have his/her name spoken correctly. One conductor I work with says Shos-TOK- ovitch. He did study in St. Petersburg, and Solti said it that way, but after 60 years of the normal American version it's really hard to change.
You're right that it is readable and can be difficult on other keyboards, so I get why you omit the umlauts and accents. But just as a small addition: the "umlaut" letters are distinct letters in German and, while it's not relevant for names, can change the meaning of a word ("schön" means "beautiful"; "schon" means "already"). I think that's true for the other "diacritical marks" you mentioned too. It's like if I wrote "Elger" and said it's perfectly readable.
(You can also write umlaut letters by adding an e btw: ä --> ae / ö --> oe / ü --> ue)
God Dave, laughing from the start! Pedantry, sanctimonious, and cats! Tomato or tomahto, drama or draama, we all simply get the point of the discussion anyway. Your vocabulary is as elevated as anyone here, as is your understanding, partial or not, of so many languages. As one who was once attacked for, not my opinion, but my punctuation, I feel this pain inflicted by a lowest common denominator/pretentious pomposities keenly! If the statement is clear, that's the point (Tho' skirting an unlettered slob!) They even hate my/our use of ... to end comments. Let's have a few more then ...
Give 'em heck, Dave!!! (LOL)
St. Louis Symphony had a wonderful Czech conductor, Walter Susskind in the 60's and 70's. For his farewell concert he did Dvorak's 7th symphony because he found it to be a solemn piece for a solemn occasion. In his farewell speech before he played the symphony he kept saying Vorak with no gzz and I didn't know at first what he was saying. I'm sure that was the correct Czech pronunciation but I will always continue to say Dvorak with the gzz because that is the way everybody pronounces it and my Czech and American friends know what I am saying.
Those people trying to correct Dave, must be part of the Bruckner cult. Yikes.
Umm. It's pronounced hur-WITZ. Not HUR-witz.
*rolls eyes in an exaggerated fashion*