Regarding "creating a wall gardens", I think it's the opposite: To me, this reads like Andrew is actually talking to people instead of just reacting to low value tweets. I very much agree with this. I expended my views about life a lot more when I started to talk to farmers in my area; rather than when i was reading the hell pit that is the Joe Rogan's twitter. ps. zig is the first time I'm exited about a new language (and toolchain, build system, package manager :^) ) in 10 years.
Zig is wild to me because it has been fixing essentially all of the issues I have with developing for Linux in one go. Easy build system? Yup. Performant? Yup. Easy to use C code in Zig? Literally easier than using C code in C. Easy to use Zig code as a C library? Yup. Cross compilation? So easy it's basically magic. Target older fucking versions of glibc without building on an old distro? Absolute godsend. It's really hard to get people to try new languages when they're happy with C, but man I think Zig at least has a good chance to become the defacto C build system once more people see how easy it is.
I agree, and the Reddit format is perfect for that. I switched to lemmy now, which suffers from a lack of people, but works the same. I hate the youtube comment system, because proper discussion is impossible here. Blog articles are also great, because people put a lot of effort into them and therefore the arguments are usually well thought out and not crammed into 280 characters or something.
@@turun_ambartanen yeah, I think lemmy might be a decent place to host a dedicated community for something like a programming language. pair that with a wiki and maybe a discord or similar (I'm so old that I'm still an IRC fan) and I think you'd be covered pretty well, and you wouldn't have to deal with reddit admins or the larger reddit community, which is always a bonus.
I agree. It's not a matter of creating an echo-chamber where no one disagrees with you. It's about trying to find high quality sources of discourse and information. Exposing yourself to rude BS on twitter (or anywhere else) doesn't actually help you avoid an echo-chamber mindset. I think it actually does the opposite, because it infects you with the same knee-jerk, know-it-all, low-quality attitude. There are so many people on the Internet who simply look for excuses to disagree without providing any substance to back up their disagreement. They back it up with rudeness and dismissiveness instead. That doesn't help anybody.
I hate Reddit and Twitter, and am mildly interested in Zig, but unfortunately the negative reaction to soccer offends me as a Brazilian and I've had a neuron activation. Soccer good, number one sport in the world. Kids playing soccer good too. Americans may not like it, but that's what peak performance looks like.
BJJ literally stands for Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. I would understand if you were upset at trading football for Dutch Kickboxing as a Brazilian, but football to BJJ? Come on...
Update on the /r/zig moderation status: The person who originally took over the subreddit was a troll, and was removed by the Reddit admins. There's a new moderator now who is a part of the Zig community.
My life has been significantly better since quitting social media. Finding niche communities to be a part of that actually have a shared interest (not all shared opinions) is much more productive and healthy for me personally. I will occasionally look up someone that I'm interested in on Twitter just to read their feed, but for the most part I get all the information I need by osmosis and from more long form content. The only recent exception is getting on Twitch, which has been a wild ride of being exposed to the strange mix of people that follow Prime
11:10 Andrew closed the /zig subreddit at a pretty bad timing for me because I was just starting to learn it and kinda depended on some answers that only seemed to exist *there* though luckily it seems google had cached everything so I just used that. lol
I'd argue that dissatisfaction with a lack of civility and the oodles of shitty behaviour the internet engenders and actively choosing not to use social media platforms that seem largely to function through catering to outrage and us-versus-them mentalities is not the same thing as wanting a place where everybody agree with you. Kudos if you can stand being in those places and just ignore all the crappy bit, but for some it's just too much of a toll regardless of what use or meaning it may bring you.
I think it's moreso to do with his reasons for leaving social media. I think his reasons for leaving twitter are 100% valid, and in general I agree that leaving social media is a *good* thing. But his reason for leaving reddit was "I don't agree with AI, therefore I want to shut down the entire sub". He was removing *everyones* ability to use the subreddit simply because he didn't want *his* data used for LLMs, which is inherently selfish imo and tracks with the idea of "everyone needs to agree with me".
@@jacksonyukihillary protecting your users from predatory corporations, against their poor judgement, IMO is a decent choice. But he is a self-described BDFL, so if you have a huge problem with selfishness in specific, then you probably should excuse yourself from his creation and community. His language has made a LOT of very opinionated takes. You probably won't like it.
@@blarghblargh "protecting your users from predatory corporations, against their poor judgement" this right here. The assumption that "his" users are the ones with the default "poor judgement" is exactly my issue. You can have whatever opinion you want about reddit, but the members of the sub aren't kids - they can make their own decisions about what companies they wish to support.
@@jacksonyukihillary it wasn't about AI, it was about the reddit API changes (sparked by _reddit's_ fears of AI) that took down a lot of 3rd party apps largely against the will of the community and made the platform worse for users.
I do not think that Andrew is creating an echo chamber. I do think that he is overstating the *inherent* problem with a service like Twitter, but he's correct at what X/Twitter has become. I've been on Twitter for maybe 15 years, and the first 5-7 years it was fine. But he's not leaving *THAT* Twitter, he's leaving X/Twitter. And X/Twitter as it exists is incredibly toxic. I'm not on X/Twitter anymore, but it's not because I hate when people disagree with me. Plenty of people disagreed with me during those first 5-7 years and I was fine with that. They were engaging in honest conversation where they happened to have different opinions than I did. And some of that was just because they have different backgrounds. But they would be engaging in an actual conversation with me, and not simply attacking me for the fun of making people upset. But X/Twitter has been infected with politics. And that means I'll say in a direct *'@someone'* message, and someone who does not know either me or jumps in to give me crap about what I said. And some of the time they're totally misreading what I wrote, and claim that I'm saying the exact opposite of what I in fact said. What I said is right there in the tweet, and yet they misread the tweet (perhaps deliberately?) and then go into some spasm attack about it. They're not on Twitter to have a conversation, they're on twitter to attack.
Just curious, I never really did much social media beyond RUclips. My brain just isn't big enough to handle more than one. Is the problem the platform or the people? It seems to me that people are becoming more toxic. It could be caused by social media.
Twitter has always been toxic, the difference is that in the past, toxic comments attacking left-wing values and ideals were censored but not toxic comments attacking right-wing values and ideas, now there is no banning at all. It has always been infected with politics. Perhaps you didn't notice because the number of users was small. When I remember the presidential race between Trump and Hilary there was a lot of hate, politics and madness. This has nothing to do with the change to X/Twitter. And in case you are wondering, no, I'm not American and actually disagree with both "american" sides mostly.
@@kayakMike1000 I don't really know why, but Twitter just seemed to garner a crowd that seemed to have all the answers to everything, and loved "dunking" on people with pithy one-liners. Other social media sites are mostly a bit more friendly, and I sort of get the feeling Twitter is getting less painful because society has become more aware that smug dunking is actually hateful and not cool. The thing that generally bothers me about most social media is not so much the dunkers, but just the general low-effort vibe it invites. A bit like, sorry to say it, Twitch comments -- when you look up and just see a whole screen of "KEKW" scrolling by... well, you know. Especially if you've been around for a long time and remember the pre-social-media days where if you wanted to say something, you had to write a forum post (or, before that, write your own webpage and put it online... no static site generators, just HTML written in a text editor or Frontpage Express...).
@@kayakMike1000 Truthfully I think it's both. X has noticeably less moderation which in turn creates a feedback loop for toxicity to continue. For instance, I used to be able to see blatant hate speech, report it, the user would at a minimum have to take it down. Because of that, you wouldn't have people interacting anywhere near as often with said extreme opinion, keeping things a little more sane. X now has a report button doesn't really do anything and like Andrew Kelly said, interacting with those posts just push's those types of posts onto peoples feeds; creating the feedback loop of toxicity. I did the same as Andrew after the API rate limiting debacle and just left. Elon can have whatever he's doing. It's bad for everybody's mental health IMO.
Год назад+8
I have deleted my twitter account, my life is better now.
I completely agree with him, to be honest. Twitter in its core is a very provocative and reactionary environment, and the acquisition of the platform by the clown in chief only made things significantly worse. I'm not ready to get rid of these completely, but instead of spending my time there, i've switched to Bluesky and Lemmy respectively. Both are much smaller, people are nicer, and I don't feel pressured to say anything
the only difference with twitter now is that people can actually reply to left wing extremism without getting shadowed. this has made the platform more argumentative, because leftists don't like being called out, but it's no more combative than it was before - the combativeness is just bidirectional now, rather than unidirectional
I honestly don't know how people use Stack Overflow. Every answer I searched for was flagged for deletion. Every question I asked was flagged for deletion. It's a mystery to me how anyone gets anything through the SO gatekeepers.
I truly enjoy when popular ppl I know mention each other, it's like u as an ordinar guy is watching some youtube video or reading some article of some popular guy and... he suddenly mentions u there and u r like: "WHT?"
6:47 - 6:50 I don't have anything to offer to this community in regards to software engineering/coding/programming etc. etc. but I can offer that the artifacting on-screen here is a sign of memory instability. I would double-check the RAM isn't running with garbage timings/is forcing those timings to hit a target speed. It's alarming to see and I have to always rewind to know if it's my own machine. I know with certainty that these are not artifacts from recording/processing/rendering.
Leaving non libre Software is always good, such a shame that the are still so many people defending their corporate lords instead of their own interests.
You say this as if you know what everybody's interests are and are uniquely qualified to tell them exactly what they are and aren't. This is like 99% of the problem people have with libre software.
@@homelessrobot He's not saying interests as in sports, tech, finances, whatever. He's saying that people go out of their way to defend corporations that really only care about increasing profit margins at the expense of users. People rather do that than actually stand up for themselves and their own personal values.
@@ismellpedo "He's not saying interests as in sports, tech, finances, whatever" Ok thats great, because neither am I. Why you think what I mean is 'trivial interests', is telling, but I won't read too much into it. "He's saying that people go out of their way to defend co...." No, i think largely they go out of their way to criticize free software because 'free sofware' is incoherent as defined. In order for something to qualify as free software, it has to impose more restrictions on its proliferation and usage than 'less free' (permissive) licenses. And this is saying nothing about the actual quality and usability of free software alternatives to 'less free' software. If the free software alternatives don't even meet the minimum requirements you have for the original less free thing you are using, the implication is that you should just suffer through software that doesn't do what you need, imposses additional restrictions on how you can use it, because capitalism bad.
I have to agree somewhat. Quitting social media has been the number one thing that’s improved my life. There’s differing views and then there’s toxicity. They’re not the same thing
"I just assume most people aren't horrible people" those r words I try to live by. (Life makes it hard tho) I usually at least try and give people the option to be decent to me. Being trans does make it alot more complicated but it's good advice non the less It's also like a very privileged position to be in. Like most taxy drivers I had have been creepy towards me. And so I can't really assume they r not gona be creepy when i just can't deal with creepiness. It's like... most people r good people but some systemic Bellshill gets in the way. And it's honestly sad to see
I'm an old programmer, and the things that made the most difference in both my career and my life were the real, human connections that I made along the way. You can make them online or you can make them IRL, but Twitter isn't the only place - or even the best place - to make those sorts of connections.
Clearly life was so much worst before social media. It is helping us become better people, by having to confront twitter trolls, and doesn’t create an echo chamber at all.
I think Twitter is fine and a lot of the people saying twitter is a shit hope most of the time are people that have large followings and are simple out of touch with the experience of the majority of twitter users. Most users don’t see spam bots in their replies, most don’t even get replies. Most don’t have stalkers or just crazy people always messaging them. Most don’t have a massive block list. Most just follow people they like and sometimes reply. Twitter had not gotten worse since Elon, people are just more comfortable shitting on it now he owns it, just like how people shit on Tesla and SpaceX for no reason other than Elon owns it.
I have precisely one human follower. Twitter is a shit hole. It's a shit hole not because of spam bots, or stalkers, or crazy people (as Tyler the creator says, just walk away from the screen, close your eyes, whatever). It's a shithole because the character limit prevents discussion with any kind of nuance and is practically designed to turn everything into a flamewar. You're right that there's little difference since old musky took over. If anything it's less bad in a few respects, and I say that as a card carrying elon hater.
If you use Twitter just don't use the main feed. I only read tweets from people I follow. I can get through it in about 10 minutes a day, and it's the easiest way to keep up with tech things I care about. Virtually zero negativity.
Talking about "track marks", I had 3 weeks of IV antibiotics, and well you can imagine how my arms looked when there's a small needle (well plastic pipe is left but...) there for up to a week at a time :D
I don't think people generally get more done or have better lives by exposing themselves to concentrated anonymous crazies on the internet. I don't think they usually get that much less ignorant. And I don't think people generally have a problem with someone humbly showing another point of view while showing their work and interpreting facts without trying to overreach in their conclusions. I also don't think we filter any LESS in real life. In fact, I think we have significantly more exposure to crusading bad faith dinguses online than we do IRL. this "you're making an echo chamber" stuff is a meme, in pretty much all forms. it's also not really a political take. it's a way to appeal to the aesthetics of considered, rational thought, without having to actually engage in any of the work of investigating facts and forming an opinion. which is fine to opt out of, imo. not all of us can do much to improve things, and not all of us have the emotional bandwidth to keep injecting news-entertainment as an IV drug. but a lot of people (not prime here) get REAL smug about it. esp your average redditor.
The problem is, Andrew is focused on software, and the social media apps are focused, like the MSM, on the average user. Or more specifically, the average common denominator between them. So what it promotes is never the cream of the crop, but rather the common things. This is like the idea to have 5 people around you to be much better than you are in your domain, and you will significantly improve. Social Media is not this.
"There is this idea that your view of the world is the correct one, and everything else is shitty because it doesn't align with what you think." You are good at reading between the lines to the root issues. Well called.
Quitting reddit and twitter (and facebook) is the first step in becoming a "Rock Star". The AI industry is making all these domain owners sell the data. The user is the asset.
At this point I don't know if healthy social media is compatible with monetization. If there is a way for it to be compatible we sure haven't found it yet. Reddit seemed to have a pretty good model for a while, but it merely delayed the time it took to turn toxic and is now irredeemable. Now we have facebook, twitter and reddit squatting on the largest user bases and preventing us from moving on. Of course if we did move on and just made yet another social media website we would feel great about it during the honeymoon period where the new service was attracting users and deferring monetization only for it to turn toxic again.
Something doesn't make sense with this article and it's like he's pointing out all the errors of Twitter like it's a new revelation. I heard some excuses in there regarding Elan or whatever, I think there's something deeper going on inside. The biggest problem these days is cancel culture, and if you use Twitter in a sterile nature such as posting and jokes you'll be fine. And to completely remove the subreddit for no other reason is to give the big finger to everyone that's put effort into that. It seems more like a reaction to something they've seen or heard that they have disliked and have just decided to build their own little bubble that a few people like myself may go visit in the next two years because I'll be curious what happened to another great programming language. It feels very personal vs the abstract layer that you have to portray through life in dealing with social media
It's just quantity becoming quality. Once you're big enough on the internet, you cannot meaningfully engage everyone wanting to @ you. And if a message reads like active malice, blocking rather than interacting is a no-brainer. DHH had a good take on friction bring a useful feature in social interactions. Before social networks, if you had a negative opinion about what an artist did, you had to write a fuming letter and at least purchase a stamp and envelope. There's a fundamental disparity in the amount of effort it takes to create meaningful content, and to comment on it. Throwing shit should not be free.
@@thorbergson Sure but then you shouldn't spend the very next sentence talking about how it's important to avoid shutting oneself off into a walled garden
Hmm, I really didn't take away "I want an echo chamber that suits me" from his post. It seemed more like a combo of 1) Twitter makes me sad (which is fair), 2) Reddit was cool but I don't like its corporate overlords so am leaving (also fair enough), and 3) I don't really like having psychologically-addictive recommendation algorithms decide what I should read (which I kinda get, and his mention of RSS at the end fits that). I would have suggested something like Lemmy as an alternative to Reddit, but it seems like what he's really looking for is picking RSS feeds that suit him -- probably not because he only likes people who agree with him, but maybe he's just tired of the avalanche of *low effort* posts on Twitter / Reddit etc. It reminds me a bit of the old internet where if you had a retro computing webpage, you'd join a "webring" so people could click a banner at the bottom to find other similar sites.
These problems (ostensible deterioration) probably follow the sheer N value in terms of participation. As this population grows larger and larger it approaches more a normal (Gaussian) distribution which means that it cannot be a "high level" conversation (it cannot remain "above average"), but will have all levels of participants with emphasis around the "mean", and tails going out below the average and above the average. There will be many very bright people, and increasingly an equal amount of really bonehead folk too. Just the way large populations seem to work (small populations clearly work very differently). This kind of thing is more an observation than something created by anyone. I believe statistics and this kind of math started out hundreds of years ago. It's actually a fascinating area of study.
His taking the Zig Community to its own forum is perfectly fine. Twitter has become a 💩-show anyway. So good for Andrew Kelley to leave it. Every month the platform changes or breaks something somewhere. Sure Elon is no longer CEO but it is clear, he still calls the shots. Just putting someone else in front to catch the ricochet bullets. What I don't get is Andrew's writing on the Reddit situation. He is clearly bothered about Reddit reopening r/Zig (calling it "hostile", done by a "troll" and being "forcibly" replaced) Yet, a sentence later, claiming that it is not a problem. Then even distanced himself and the Zig Foundation from r/Zig, only to draw positive attention to it later because its moderator is now a Zig community member (a "well-regarded" one even). So is he cool with r/Zig being open again or not?
Reddit is so much worse than Twitter in my opinion, but social media in general is just insufferable these days. Reddit for me became unusable due to power mods and just the userbase being the most annoying group of people I've ever interacted with. Twitter, on the other hand, just seems to sensationalize everything, and if you're a small account or don't have the blue check, It's hard to get any engagement or real conversations. At least on Reddit, you'd usually get a couple of replies.
Twitter gives you a false impression about reality. It makes you think most people are jerks. They aren't. Most people that gather on twitter are jerks, sure, but most people that go outside their homes, aren't. ( programmers are ofc excluded from this categorization, because aint nobody got time to go outside AM I RIGHT?)
17:30 It's unfair to say him not participating in those platforms somehow makes him isolationist. Twitter and reddit both are "artificial reputation" based (typically centered around having a cult following/membership or celebrity clout or both) with corporate incentives to guide them. This leads to pure black or white conversation, which is pointless to participate into most of the time (its all "two-party" politics basically). When you apply any sorting, its innevitable for the outlayers to come out to the top (be it the lowest values or highest noise). Need more examples? react videos, lets plays instead of walkthoughs, sleep streams, what happened to stackoverflow over time, etc. A reasonable place to have discourse wouldnt be biased to anything other then the quality of the message or the quality of the conversation in that point in time. A fair place to discus would also offer equal opportunity to state their opinion with out everyone dogpilling on them before they're finished or because they cant articulate it perfectly (thats what "forums" are suppose to be). Today most places like that are gone, with only discord being one by accident (and because none others exist), along with the ocasional blogsphere, vblogsphere. No surprise, good discussion doesnt sell in our capitalist world after all, and we love to consume (toilet humor, drama, bandwagons, etc), not discuss.
_But_ my view is the right one....and the pain and suffering I see all around me validates that viewpoint on a daily basis. My view of how it should be or how it should all be fixed _might_ not be the right one but having to pretend the world is all great butterflies and rainbows pouring forth upon us is.... gross.
Hey prime ! hope that you are doing well... I have this particular question that I wanted to ask you : "how are you dealing with eye strain ?" - upvote pls ; )
I had the same problem. Ended up, well, right now I have a 65" QLed Samsung that I use. That sucker is nice. I'm like almost 8ft from it. I really don't get any eye stain at all like before. Plus I use those 'Gunnar' computer glasses. They magnify a little & they filter out some of that blue light. That have prescription ones too.
My eye doctor gave me these .5 pair of glasses, which is minimal but stopped "the shaking" how I used to call it, but I was 17 when I went to the doctor because of this.
Isolating of thing does eventually its an own goal, you have to know and feel how to deal with mean comments and you dont have to interact with anything. When a big problem comes and you are used to always fell over a pillow, the wall is hard and you will be very injured after it. My approach to life is address problems by facing it, avoid / ignore them is not one of them. Mean and praise comments will exist always, mean and even praise dont have to take it seriously. Criticism even from the most crazy person can be useful, you have to learn how to read/listen and grab the best of it. Im not a fan of virtue signalling, and this post seems to me more the same, with more level maybe, but still.
I think that Zig grove up and vision of language stabilized and other kind of interaction with comunity is needed that personal interaction by thousands with creator. Now audacity of many should be cooled by seasoned memebers of comunity because other way Andy will drown in noise and stupid show-offs.
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Today is the day. (The hoodie is in the washing machine.)
At least once a year you gotta wash your programmer armor
@IgorGuerrero the socks stay on year-round, though
@@_Lumiere_ omg eww 😂
@IgorGuerrero he does it like once every 4 to 6 months (just like his neovim config)
I like how it took a person, that people apparently don’t like anymore to take over Twitter, to realize it was a cesspool.
its been a cesspool for a long time. long before ya boy elon took it over. (nothing has literally changed, just peoples perceptions)
@@ThePrimeTimeagen cap
@@ThePrimeTimeagen Yep, everyone who complains it is toxic now has the memory of a goldfish.
@@ThePrimeTimeagen100%. Don't care much for (or obsessively hate) Elon, but Twitter has been awful at least the past half decade.
but changing it's name to X was definitely really stupid lol@@ThePrimeTimeagen
I swear I learned opening a file by that stackoverflow question 10+ years ago :D
Regarding "creating a wall gardens", I think it's the opposite:
To me, this reads like Andrew is actually talking to people instead of just reacting to low value tweets.
I very much agree with this. I expended my views about life a lot more when I started to talk to farmers in my area; rather than when i was reading the hell pit that is the Joe Rogan's twitter.
ps. zig is the first time I'm exited about a new language (and toolchain, build system, package manager :^) ) in 10 years.
Zig is wild to me because it has been fixing essentially all of the issues I have with developing for Linux in one go.
Easy build system? Yup.
Performant? Yup.
Easy to use C code in Zig? Literally easier than using C code in C.
Easy to use Zig code as a C library? Yup.
Cross compilation? So easy it's basically magic.
Target older fucking versions of glibc without building on an old distro? Absolute godsend.
It's really hard to get people to try new languages when they're happy with C, but man I think Zig at least has a good chance to become the defacto C build system once more people see how easy it is.
@@mgord9518 I genuinely LOLed at 'Literally easier than using C code in C.'
I agree, and the Reddit format is perfect for that. I switched to lemmy now, which suffers from a lack of people, but works the same. I hate the youtube comment system, because proper discussion is impossible here.
Blog articles are also great, because people put a lot of effort into them and therefore the arguments are usually well thought out and not crammed into 280 characters or something.
@@turun_ambartanen yeah, I think lemmy might be a decent place to host a dedicated community for something like a programming language. pair that with a wiki and maybe a discord or similar (I'm so old that I'm still an IRC fan) and I think you'd be covered pretty well, and you wouldn't have to deal with reddit admins or the larger reddit community, which is always a bonus.
I agree.
It's not a matter of creating an echo-chamber where no one disagrees with you. It's about trying to find high quality sources of discourse and information. Exposing yourself to rude BS on twitter (or anywhere else) doesn't actually help you avoid an echo-chamber mindset. I think it actually does the opposite, because it infects you with the same knee-jerk, know-it-all, low-quality attitude.
There are so many people on the Internet who simply look for excuses to disagree without providing any substance to back up their disagreement. They back it up with rudeness and dismissiveness instead. That doesn't help anybody.
I hate Reddit and Twitter, and am mildly interested in Zig, but unfortunately the negative reaction to soccer offends me as a Brazilian and I've had a neuron activation.
Soccer good, number one sport in the world. Kids playing soccer good too. Americans may not like it, but that's what peak performance looks like.
😂
Brazilian together HUE stronger!
Inb4 I'm from Brazil too, futebol is just a way of life :)
@@DieDonafutebol sounds nothing like football. What you said sounds more like fruit bowl. Just call it football
BJJ literally stands for Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. I would understand if you were upset at trading football for Dutch Kickboxing as a Brazilian, but football to BJJ? Come on...
Soccer is homo
Update on the /r/zig moderation status: The person who originally took over the subreddit was a troll, and was removed by the Reddit admins. There's a new moderator now who is a part of the Zig community.
That's good and all but Reddit should be avoided like the plague. Their choice to force communities to open back up goes to show how ridiculous it is.
A volunteer Zig community on Reddit run by community members is totally appropriate _as long as_ it makes it clear that it is *unofficial*.
We need more motherfucking website reactions ngl, the differences between them and their authors opinions are quite enlightening
My life has been significantly better since quitting social media. Finding niche communities to be a part of that actually have a shared interest (not all shared opinions) is much more productive and healthy for me personally. I will occasionally look up someone that I'm interested in on Twitter just to read their feed, but for the most part I get all the information I need by osmosis and from more long form content. The only recent exception is getting on Twitch, which has been a wild ride of being exposed to the strange mix of people that follow Prime
11:10 Andrew closed the /zig subreddit at a pretty bad timing for me because I was just starting to learn it and kinda depended on some answers that only seemed to exist *there* though luckily it seems google had cached everything so I just used that. lol
You are so true about assuming good faith and giving people's negative critisim an ear.
I'd argue that dissatisfaction with a lack of civility and the oodles of shitty behaviour the internet engenders and actively choosing not to use social media platforms that seem largely to function through catering to outrage and us-versus-them mentalities is not the same thing as wanting a place where everybody agree with you.
Kudos if you can stand being in those places and just ignore all the crappy bit, but for some it's just too much of a toll regardless of what use or meaning it may bring you.
I think it's moreso to do with his reasons for leaving social media. I think his reasons for leaving twitter are 100% valid, and in general I agree that leaving social media is a *good* thing. But his reason for leaving reddit was "I don't agree with AI, therefore I want to shut down the entire sub". He was removing *everyones* ability to use the subreddit simply because he didn't want *his* data used for LLMs, which is inherently selfish imo and tracks with the idea of "everyone needs to agree with me".
@@jacksonyukihillary protecting your users from predatory corporations, against their poor judgement, IMO is a decent choice. But he is a self-described BDFL, so if you have a huge problem with selfishness in specific, then you probably should excuse yourself from his creation and community.
His language has made a LOT of very opinionated takes. You probably won't like it.
@@blarghblargh "protecting your users from predatory corporations, against their poor judgement" this right here. The assumption that "his" users are the ones with the default "poor judgement" is exactly my issue. You can have whatever opinion you want about reddit, but the members of the sub aren't kids - they can make their own decisions about what companies they wish to support.
but there's nothing to argue, you're saying exactly what he said.
@@jacksonyukihillary it wasn't about AI, it was about the reddit API changes (sparked by _reddit's_ fears of AI) that took down a lot of 3rd party apps largely against the will of the community and made the platform worse for users.
he def deserves respect, not even fully released yet, but its good.
You realize how fool you sound?
We have to build abstraction layers so we can deal with social media shenanigans.
I do not think that Andrew is creating an echo chamber. I do think that he is overstating the *inherent* problem with a service like Twitter, but he's correct at what X/Twitter has become. I've been on Twitter for maybe 15 years, and the first 5-7 years it was fine. But he's not leaving *THAT* Twitter, he's leaving X/Twitter. And X/Twitter as it exists is incredibly toxic.
I'm not on X/Twitter anymore, but it's not because I hate when people disagree with me. Plenty of people disagreed with me during those first 5-7 years and I was fine with that. They were engaging in honest conversation where they happened to have different opinions than I did. And some of that was just because they have different backgrounds. But they would be engaging in an actual conversation with me, and not simply attacking me for the fun of making people upset.
But X/Twitter has been infected with politics. And that means I'll say in a direct *'@someone'* message, and someone who does not know either me or jumps in to give me crap about what I said. And some of the time they're totally misreading what I wrote, and claim that I'm saying the exact opposite of what I in fact said. What I said is right there in the tweet, and yet they misread the tweet (perhaps deliberately?) and then go into some spasm attack about it. They're not on Twitter to have a conversation, they're on twitter to attack.
i agree with this assessment, but i am unsure if that is what he meant. my take on this doesn't match that read.
Just curious, I never really did much social media beyond RUclips. My brain just isn't big enough to handle more than one. Is the problem the platform or the people? It seems to me that people are becoming more toxic. It could be caused by social media.
Twitter has always been toxic, the difference is that in the past, toxic comments attacking left-wing values and ideals were censored but not toxic comments attacking right-wing values and ideas, now there is no banning at all. It has always been infected with politics. Perhaps you didn't notice because the number of users was small. When I remember the presidential race between Trump and Hilary there was a lot of hate, politics and madness. This has nothing to do with the change to X/Twitter. And in case you are wondering, no, I'm not American and actually disagree with both "american" sides mostly.
@@kayakMike1000 I don't really know why, but Twitter just seemed to garner a crowd that seemed to have all the answers to everything, and loved "dunking" on people with pithy one-liners. Other social media sites are mostly a bit more friendly, and I sort of get the feeling Twitter is getting less painful because society has become more aware that smug dunking is actually hateful and not cool.
The thing that generally bothers me about most social media is not so much the dunkers, but just the general low-effort vibe it invites. A bit like, sorry to say it, Twitch comments -- when you look up and just see a whole screen of "KEKW" scrolling by... well, you know.
Especially if you've been around for a long time and remember the pre-social-media days where if you wanted to say something, you had to write a forum post (or, before that, write your own webpage and put it online... no static site generators, just HTML written in a text editor or Frontpage Express...).
@@kayakMike1000 Truthfully I think it's both. X has noticeably less moderation which in turn creates a feedback loop for toxicity to continue.
For instance, I used to be able to see blatant hate speech, report it, the user would at a minimum have to take it down. Because of that, you wouldn't have people interacting anywhere near as often with said extreme opinion, keeping things a little more sane. X now has a report button doesn't really do anything and like Andrew Kelly said, interacting with those posts just push's those types of posts onto peoples feeds; creating the feedback loop of toxicity.
I did the same as Andrew after the API rate limiting debacle and just left. Elon can have whatever he's doing. It's bad for everybody's mental health IMO.
I have deleted my twitter account, my life is better now.
I completely agree with him, to be honest. Twitter in its core is a very provocative and reactionary environment, and the acquisition of the platform by the clown in chief only made things significantly worse. I'm not ready to get rid of these completely, but instead of spending my time there, i've switched to Bluesky and Lemmy respectively. Both are much smaller, people are nicer, and I don't feel pressured to say anything
seems about the same to me. Just different wallpaper and different people flinging shit on it.
the only difference with twitter now is that people can actually reply to left wing extremism without getting shadowed. this has made the platform more argumentative, because leftists don't like being called out, but it's no more combative than it was before - the combativeness is just bidirectional now, rather than unidirectional
I honestly don't know how people use Stack Overflow. Every answer I searched for was flagged for deletion. Every question I asked was flagged for deletion. It's a mystery to me how anyone gets anything through the SO gatekeepers.
T-shirt instead of hoodie? We're getting treated today boys
how _do_ you open a file in c++?
I truly enjoy when popular ppl I know mention each other, it's like u as an ordinar guy is watching some youtube video or reading some article of some popular guy and... he suddenly mentions u there and u r like: "WHT?"
6:47 - 6:50 I don't have anything to offer to this community in regards to software engineering/coding/programming etc. etc. but I can offer that the artifacting on-screen here is a sign of memory instability. I would double-check the RAM isn't running with garbage timings/is forcing those timings to hit a target speed. It's alarming to see and I have to always rewind to know if it's my own machine. I know with certainty that these are not artifacts from recording/processing/rendering.
It's probably just a stream hiccup as you can see compression artifacts just after it
You have now reached a higher level of royalty, Prime! People mention you in their own blog post just in case you may read them. Hat off!
Leaving non libre Software is always good, such a shame that the are still so many people defending their corporate lords instead of their own interests.
The more you defend them the higher the likelihood they'll pay you
You say this as if you know what everybody's interests are and are uniquely qualified to tell them exactly what they are and aren't. This is like 99% of the problem people have with libre software.
@@homelessrobot He's not saying interests as in sports, tech, finances, whatever. He's saying that people go out of their way to defend corporations that really only care about increasing profit margins at the expense of users. People rather do that than actually stand up for themselves and their own personal values.
@@ismellpedo "He's not saying interests as in sports, tech, finances, whatever"
Ok thats great, because neither am I. Why you think what I mean is 'trivial interests', is telling, but I won't read too much into it.
"He's saying that people go out of their way to defend co...."
No, i think largely they go out of their way to criticize free software because 'free sofware' is incoherent as defined. In order for something to qualify as free software, it has to impose more restrictions on its proliferation and usage than 'less free' (permissive) licenses. And this is saying nothing about the actual quality and usability of free software alternatives to 'less free' software.
If the free software alternatives don't even meet the minimum requirements you have for the original less free thing you are using, the implication is that you should just suffer through software that doesn't do what you need, imposses additional restrictions on how you can use it, because capitalism bad.
@@homelessrobot This has to be the most idiotic thing you could have said
I have to agree somewhat. Quitting social media has been the number one thing that’s improved my life. There’s differing views and then there’s toxicity. They’re not the same thing
RUclips is a form of social media.
"I just assume most people aren't horrible people" those r words I try to live by. (Life makes it hard tho)
I usually at least try and give people the option to be decent to me. Being trans does make it alot more complicated but it's good advice non the less
It's also like a very privileged position to be in. Like most taxy drivers I had have been creepy towards me. And so I can't really assume they r not gona be creepy when i just can't deal with creepiness.
It's like... most people r good people but some systemic Bellshill gets in the way. And it's honestly sad to see
I can't wait for the enshitification of Discord and the return to IRC.
just wanted to say that the subreddit is no longer run by that troll, now a better person moderates it
Reddit Inc is owned by trolls
I'm an old programmer, and the things that made the most difference in both my career and my life were the real, human connections that I made along the way. You can make them online or you can make them IRL, but Twitter isn't the only place - or even the best place - to make those sorts of connections.
Clearly life was so much worst before social media. It is helping us become better people, by having to confront twitter trolls, and doesn’t create an echo chamber at all.
I think Twitter is fine and a lot of the people saying twitter is a shit hope most of the time are people that have large followings and are simple out of touch with the experience of the majority of twitter users. Most users don’t see spam bots in their replies, most don’t even get replies. Most don’t have stalkers or just crazy people always messaging them. Most don’t have a massive block list. Most just follow people they like and sometimes reply.
Twitter had not gotten worse since Elon, people are just more comfortable shitting on it now he owns it, just like how people shit on Tesla and SpaceX for no reason other than Elon owns it.
I have precisely one human follower. Twitter is a shit hole. It's a shit hole not because of spam bots, or stalkers, or crazy people (as Tyler the creator says, just walk away from the screen, close your eyes, whatever). It's a shithole because the character limit prevents discussion with any kind of nuance and is practically designed to turn everything into a flamewar.
You're right that there's little difference since old musky took over. If anything it's less bad in a few respects, and I say that as a card carrying elon hater.
If you use Twitter just don't use the main feed. I only read tweets from people I follow. I can get through it in about 10 minutes a day, and it's the easiest way to keep up with tech things I care about. Virtually zero negativity.
I love my racists friends though
We're all from different races
We just REALLY love our differences
Which make us love drinking more beers together
Nothing like a good racist joke to break the ice
Talking about "track marks", I had 3 weeks of IV antibiotics, and well you can imagine how my arms looked when there's a small needle (well plastic pipe is left but...) there for up to a week at a time :D
The AlexJonesagen.
Also, please wear pasties with little tassels if/when you tear your shirt off. It'll be funnier that way.
I don't think people generally get more done or have better lives by exposing themselves to concentrated anonymous crazies on the internet. I don't think they usually get that much less ignorant. And I don't think people generally have a problem with someone humbly showing another point of view while showing their work and interpreting facts without trying to overreach in their conclusions.
I also don't think we filter any LESS in real life. In fact, I think we have significantly more exposure to crusading bad faith dinguses online than we do IRL.
this "you're making an echo chamber" stuff is a meme, in pretty much all forms. it's also not really a political take. it's a way to appeal to the aesthetics of considered, rational thought, without having to actually engage in any of the work of investigating facts and forming an opinion. which is fine to opt out of, imo. not all of us can do much to improve things, and not all of us have the emotional bandwidth to keep injecting news-entertainment as an IV drug. but a lot of people (not prime here) get REAL smug about it. esp your average redditor.
The problem is, Andrew is focused on software, and the social media apps are focused, like the MSM, on the average user. Or more specifically, the average common denominator between them. So what it promotes is never the cream of the crop, but rather the common things.
This is like the idea to have 5 people around you to be much better than you are in your domain, and you will significantly improve. Social Media is not this.
now that twitter monetizes tweets for the users, it will be even worse and clickbaity
"There is this idea that your view of the world is the correct one, and everything else is shitty because it doesn't align with what you think." You are good at reading between the lines to the root issues. Well called.
This is so heartwarming.
Quitting reddit and twitter (and facebook) is the first step in becoming a "Rock Star".
The AI industry is making all these domain owners sell the data. The user is the asset.
the user has always been the asset... they don't sell ads for the sake of user behavior... the sell ads because of user behavior
Andrew really hit prime with the !!double bang.
1:43 That sounds like legit: "oh sh*t, I didnt want to let that secret out uhhhhhhhhhh no"
At this point I don't know if healthy social media is compatible with monetization. If there is a way for it to be compatible we sure haven't found it yet. Reddit seemed to have a pretty good model for a while, but it merely delayed the time it took to turn toxic and is now irredeemable. Now we have facebook, twitter and reddit squatting on the largest user bases and preventing us from moving on. Of course if we did move on and just made yet another social media website we would feel great about it during the honeymoon period where the new service was attracting users and deferring monetization only for it to turn toxic again.
Something doesn't make sense with this article and it's like he's pointing out all the errors of Twitter like it's a new revelation.
I heard some excuses in there regarding Elan or whatever, I think there's something deeper going on inside.
The biggest problem these days is cancel culture, and if you use Twitter in a sterile nature such as posting and jokes you'll be fine.
And to completely remove the subreddit for no other reason is to give the big finger to everyone that's put effort into that.
It seems more like a reaction to something they've seen or heard that they have disliked and have just decided to build their own little bubble that a few people like myself may go visit in the next two years because I'll be curious what happened to another great programming language.
It feels very personal vs the abstract layer that you have to portray through life in dealing with social media
If this were true, he's arguing from conclusion.
He will save time for some productive work, smart guy!
This is why rust was chosen over zig (being accepted into Linux). Not that I agree but because of the volatility.
20:10 Have you considered that you're not giving the people you've blocked a second chance?
It's just quantity becoming quality. Once you're big enough on the internet, you cannot meaningfully engage everyone wanting to @ you. And if a message reads like active malice, blocking rather than interacting is a no-brainer. DHH had a good take on friction bring a useful feature in social interactions. Before social networks, if you had a negative opinion about what an artist did, you had to write a fuming letter and at least purchase a stamp and envelope. There's a fundamental disparity in the amount of effort it takes to create meaningful content, and to comment on it. Throwing shit should not be free.
@@thorbergson Sure but then you shouldn't spend the very next sentence talking about how it's important to avoid shutting oneself off into a walled garden
Why does "So Long, Twitter and Reddit" remind me of "So Long, Gay Bowser"
So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish
Came for zig, stayed for life advice 🙌
how to open a file in cpp to creator of zig is an insane feat.
Hmm, I really didn't take away "I want an echo chamber that suits me" from his post. It seemed more like a combo of 1) Twitter makes me sad (which is fair), 2) Reddit was cool but I don't like its corporate overlords so am leaving (also fair enough), and 3) I don't really like having psychologically-addictive recommendation algorithms decide what I should read (which I kinda get, and his mention of RSS at the end fits that).
I would have suggested something like Lemmy as an alternative to Reddit, but it seems like what he's really looking for is picking RSS feeds that suit him -- probably not because he only likes people who agree with him, but maybe he's just tired of the avalanche of *low effort* posts on Twitter / Reddit etc. It reminds me a bit of the old internet where if you had a retro computing webpage, you'd join a "webring" so people could click a banner at the bottom to find other similar sites.
These problems (ostensible deterioration) probably follow the sheer N value in terms of participation. As this population grows larger and larger it approaches more a normal (Gaussian) distribution which means that it cannot be a "high level" conversation (it cannot remain "above average"), but will have all levels of participants with emphasis around the "mean", and tails going out below the average and above the average. There will be many very bright people, and increasingly an equal amount of really bonehead folk too. Just the way large populations seem to work (small populations clearly work very differently). This kind of thing is more an observation than something created by anyone. I believe statistics and this kind of math started out hundreds of years ago. It's actually a fascinating area of study.
His taking the Zig Community to its own forum is perfectly fine.
Twitter has become a 💩-show anyway. So good for Andrew Kelley to leave it. Every month the platform changes or breaks something somewhere. Sure Elon is no longer CEO but it is clear, he still calls the shots. Just putting someone else in front to catch the ricochet bullets.
What I don't get is Andrew's writing on the Reddit situation.
He is clearly bothered about Reddit reopening r/Zig (calling it "hostile", done by a "troll" and being "forcibly" replaced)
Yet, a sentence later, claiming that it is not a problem.
Then even distanced himself and the Zig Foundation from r/Zig,
only to draw positive attention to it later because its moderator is now a Zig community member (a "well-regarded" one even).
So is he cool with r/Zig being open again or not?
Elon didn't make twitter shitty lol, it always was.
12:00 haa, not your database, not your forum
can't believe he listed trash dev twitter over mine. FeelsBadMan
stopped posting on twitter 3 years ago
its now private
not using it
maybe tweet twice a year
or login to give follows to people
man prime looking fine in this one
A good move. I respect it.
Programming is infested with woke vanguardism.
We need to see that golf swing.
1:36 My thought was more, "Did she suck your blood!"
Why not create a Discourse site for Zig?
Ziggit
first time ive ever seen prime not wearing a hoodie. make of that what you will
I can't really agree with the take. But I'll also be the first to admit that he knows more about software that I'll do in 5 lives.
Shout out to my fellow ziggers
I come to Prime for all my fake news needs!
I mean, I was 100% correct. With what I said, it was the creator of Zig asking how to open a C++ file :)
@@ThePrimeTimeagen Technically correct is the best kind of correct :D
8:52 "I have meached"
Reddit is so much worse than Twitter in my opinion, but social media in general is just insufferable these days. Reddit for me became unusable due to power mods and just the userbase being the most annoying group of people I've ever interacted with. Twitter, on the other hand, just seems to sensationalize everything, and if you're a small account or don't have the blue check, It's hard to get any engagement or real conversations. At least on Reddit, you'd usually get a couple of replies.
Twitter gives you a false impression about reality. It makes you think most people are jerks. They aren't. Most people that gather on twitter are jerks, sure, but most people that go outside their homes, aren't. ( programmers are ofc excluded from this categorization, because aint nobody got time to go outside AM I RIGHT?)
why was this reuploaded? i watched this a few days ago.
you watched it live
@@ThePrimeTimeagen oh, youre right. i thought i matrixed the glitch
Bro without hoodie!! 😮
Twitter has definitely become one of the most toxic platforms ever. People post so much garbage clickbait sarcastic tweets for impressions.
Become? It always was toxic AF.
@@Gunzy83except that with musk at the helm racism and general intolerance are more than Okay now
@@Gunzy83 There was a brief moment in its conception where it was not toxic. It lasted a good 10 milliseconds 😂
@@ismellpedo They always were, it only seemed okay to you because it was targeted towards a group you don't like.
Twitter gives me anxiety too.
To be honest we all went from that... "How to ..."
16:35 Primegen just discovered how Twitter users and Ex-Twitter users think.
17:30 It's unfair to say him not participating in those platforms somehow makes him isolationist. Twitter and reddit both are "artificial reputation" based (typically centered around having a cult following/membership or celebrity clout or both) with corporate incentives to guide them. This leads to pure black or white conversation, which is pointless to participate into most of the time (its all "two-party" politics basically). When you apply any sorting, its innevitable for the outlayers to come out to the top (be it the lowest values or highest noise). Need more examples? react videos, lets plays instead of walkthoughs, sleep streams, what happened to stackoverflow over time, etc.
A reasonable place to have discourse wouldnt be biased to anything other then the quality of the message or the quality of the conversation in that point in time. A fair place to discus would also offer equal opportunity to state their opinion with out everyone dogpilling on them before they're finished or because they cant articulate it perfectly (thats what "forums" are suppose to be). Today most places like that are gone, with only discord being one by accident (and because none others exist), along with the ocasional blogsphere, vblogsphere. No surprise, good discussion doesnt sell in our capitalist world after all, and we love to consume (toilet humor, drama, bandwagons, etc), not discuss.
Reddit is the worst. I deleted all my social media except youtube, like 3y ago. I have never been happier. Social media is very destructive
Pretty much anytime someone refers to something as problematic it makes me wanna disrespect them
_But_ my view is the right one....and the pain and suffering I see all around me validates that viewpoint on a daily basis. My view of how it should be or how it should all be fixed _might_ not be the right one but having to pretend the world is all great butterflies and rainbows pouring forth upon us is.... gross.
This blog was a waste of time.
he is on "Zig Leave"
I also have a bee sting. *wink
you have to click on the user to get the user's comment history
Zig the highest paying programming language, is it¿😂
yeah, I really doubt this, in fact it hasn't even been officially released yet 😂
just like any new language or a language that very few use, cause not much people know it. Basic capitalism
No it's usually functional programming languages because of fintech usage
RSS and micro blogging is the future and freedom of information on the internet in the future IMO..... own your data
lemmy is chill
Hey prime ! hope that you are doing well... I have this particular question that I wanted to ask you : "how are you dealing with eye strain ?"
- upvote pls ; )
i mounted some old TVs to the opposite wall to be monitors instead, much nicer on the eyes :)
I had the same problem. Ended up, well, right now I have a 65" QLed Samsung that I use. That sucker is nice. I'm like almost 8ft from it. I really don't get any eye stain at all like before. Plus I use those 'Gunnar' computer glasses. They magnify a little & they filter out some of that blue light. That have prescription ones too.
This is a question for your eye doctor. He might as well never get that problem, he doesn't even wear glasses
My eye doctor gave me these .5 pair of glasses, which is minimal but stopped "the shaking" how I used to call it, but I was 17 when I went to the doctor because of this.
Isn't zig another rust
He comes across as a big snowflake
We need PNN (Prime News Network)
Isolating of thing does eventually its an own goal, you have to know and feel how to deal with mean comments and you dont have to interact with anything.
When a big problem comes and you are used to always fell over a pillow, the wall is hard and you will be very injured after it.
My approach to life is address problems by facing it, avoid / ignore them is not one of them. Mean and praise comments will exist always, mean and even praise dont have to take it seriously.
Criticism even from the most crazy person can be useful, you have to learn how to read/listen and grab the best of it.
Im not a fan of virtue signalling, and this post seems to me more the same, with more level maybe, but still.
Based 🧐
The PrimeNN
The Mainstream Agen
🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
Zigg saw Rust foundation drama and said hold my beer.
WHERE IS THE FUCKING SWEATSHIRT I DONT UNDERSTAND AND I AM SCARED.
Would be fun to have a channel that spreads programming fake news 😂
😂villian
Who is Zig
Twitter is a rathole in the final analysis
If you just noticed this now you're an NPC.
So he is woke!
I think that Zig grove up and vision of language stabilized and other kind of interaction with comunity is needed that personal interaction by thousands with creator.
Now audacity of many should be cooled by seasoned memebers of comunity because other way Andy will drown in noise and stupid show-offs.