Perhaps they’re tax exempt, because what good they do for the society (on behalf of the government otherwise having to use your tax dollars) far outweighs the damage caused by some of their very small minority of rogue priests’ antics.
2 reasons they are exempt. First is that they receive donations, not an income. Second is that it is charity, charity is the love of God above all things.
Without churches and other volunteer groups stepping in where "your" tax dollars aren't this Country would be a sad place indeed. It isn't government groups running food banks or hospices....where do you expect them to get the money if not from donations. Or do you want to live in a place like America where we have to watch people die in their masses because they can't afford healthcare??? Use whole brain
@@LarryMilmine-e9rit’s not a church issue, and they have can have undue influence on the people who attend their congregations, so it’s actually unethical and a conflict of interest.
As I believe all moral differences (eg the types that are adjudicated and enforced by government laws) are all essentially religious in nature, why should churches be denied the same political voice that I assume that you cherish for yourself?
@@chrisrutherfurd9338 how can maori claim when others came first proven at waitangi tribunal? Most maori conceded ngapuhi didn't got a treaty and they jump on board to claim under the treaty it's a costly waste of time and money to all of this nation, many who settled still scwobble over scraps after the trustees take their share n bail
I am a committed Christian and Jesus is my Lord but i definitely do not agree with the 400 "church leaders". I think David Seymour has a point. I am tired of the whole Treaty grievance industry and pandering to eternal victimhood. I respect Māori culture, language and history but I also respect my culture, language and history. Frankly, when I look at NZ history I don't think Māori society with its intertribal wars, slavery, belief systems, feudalistic society and destruction of forests and species make Māori any better than the rest of us. I think Māori culture and history is a very important part of new Zealand society but also believe that we all need to live under one set of laws and be treated as equals. I see TPM as racists.
Bob, did your pastors consult with you or any others of your congregation before signing this letter on your behalf? If not, then that's a total travesty, and I would leave the church and tell them why!
The Three articles of the Treaty are largely about equal rights and privileges. Aside from the need to save souls and stay out of politics, why would church leaders possibly have a problem with equality? Unless someone is stretching the truth about those church leaders?
I am in a church group that wouldn't touch that letter with a 10 foot pole. You have to understand that a large chunk of the church has broken off and would be unrecognizable from the historical church. I have found this numerous times over the last decade where Christians in a church setting are rejecting teaching that has been around for thousands of years. One that really got me was a church leader confronting me for not taking the vaccine. He got in my face and was frothing as he told me I was impure. God could only use the fully vaccinated. This is 100% opposite to anything you would find in Biblical teaching. The Bible is very supportive of individual rights. Also, for the record here - because I often see it quoted, "separation of church and state" is to keep the state out of the church. That was the real issue historically. From a spiritual perspective there is a growing cloud of spiritual darkness on a global scale. New Zealand has been sucked into it as well. This spiritual darkness is what is fueling the division globally over the races. There is a strategy to undermine all national foundational documents and create maximum division. This is the non-stop promotion of colonialism. Imagine if you had two children and you repeatedly scolded one child and praised the other - anyone with children would understand. What the indigenous of all lands do not realize is that it is a poisoned apple. They are sold on the lie that when the country collapses that all of the spoils will go to them. No, they will be worse of than before. Weak nations are easy to destroy. South Africa is an excellent example. To what aim? Why weaken all of the western nations? To make way for global governance. This battle is being waged on multiple fronts. One is a global digital ID with vaccine passport. Another is the carbon cost and taxes associated with climate change. Cash will be abolished soon and you will be given a choice to enter the beast system or to reject it. I believe based on the response over the last few years that a large majority would not suffer the inconvenience. Laugh at me now. Call me a stupid cooker. Lets talk again in 10 years.
I agree I have been in a 100 different churches between 1970 and 2010 and then wrote a book about it with prophetic messages, haven't published yet can't afford it but the reality is there are more spirit-filled Christians outside of the mainstream Churches than going to them. After decades of various Church attendance and experiences I joined an Independent group who were sick of Churches it was amazing but then it broke up due to the same problem Churches have, controlling your mind instead of letting God bring revelation through you to the Church body. There's been a great falling away with Saints of God in obscurity but you just watch this space we are rising up big time with a wave of revival which begins with removal of lies and deception!!
The mark of the beast on hand and forehead, not being able to buy anything without it. Always sounded far fetched till covid, and the Q code we had to download to go in and out of shops. Once digital currency is in, cash is out, note they want everything to be electric, it can all be cut off at any time....the 15% West is gone. The 85% are fighting back
Sorry to hear about your experience with so called Church leaders regarding Covid. I believe many were on the wrong side, or at least missed an opportunity. Those who weren't vaccinated were marginalized by society. Jesus spent most of his time with those who were marginalized by society.
Yeah I think Covid really revealed something... So many Christians, who I thought were supposed to have a strong sense of morality and discernment, didn't just fail to see something was off, but actually were strongly advocating for measures that I thought was at best misguided (believing that the "greater good" is some sort of moral duty and more important than individual freedom) and at worst openly cruel (like separating loved ones at times of need). Not only that, many STILL seem oblivious and unrepentant. It really shows how easily misled people are. So I'm sure it's not hard to find people in the church who will sign a letter in support of the latest politically correct idea.
@@awblax1 so why is the nz tax payer paying? why is the king not forking out? why do we not get british passports? The treaty says we have the same rights as the british.
@@Mostlypeaceful896 By the British Nationality Acts 1948 and 1981 we are no longer British subjects but Commonwealth Citizens? Therefore there is no right to a British passport, TOW notwithstanding. The New Zealand taxpayer appears to have been bequeathed the Crown's liability.
@michaeltoohey1385 how can we be stripped of our right to be british subjects like that? Surely that means the british abandoned the treaty. I still think they should be paying the bill, and give us british passports. Is it not perverse that income tax from maori citizens are paying for treaty settlements?
@@fromnzwhoisalsohalfindien ahh keep damn clear off that methodist church on Hobson street- Auckland as they have Sodom Pride ssermons and a weird Man in shorts gives the sermons.
I DIDN'T VOTE FOR SEYMOUR ,BUT HE'S THE ONLY ONE WITH BALLS ,AND THEY MAY BE 9% IN THE GOVT ,BUT HAVE THE SILENT MAJORITY BEHIND THEM .CALL FOR A REFERENDUM ,NOW INSTEAD OF THE TREATY BILL AND SHOW THE REAL NUMBERS ,WHO SUPPORT WHAT HES DOING.
I guess these Church leaders don't follow God. Since we are all created equal in relation to God, we all have equal dignity as earthly children of our heavenly Father.
@@kanewhare-paikea7316 What oath? The Treaty? Firstly is wasn't a sworn oath. And secondly, Matthew 5:34-37 says, "But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool." Read your Bible!
@Rokker61 so god made us all equal did he? When we all come to him through Jesus christ we are equal, stop taking scripture out of context to fit your narrative,
How cliche...the nuns I grew up with were hard women but amazing...no one else would look after mentally disabled kids 24/7 365 days a year when no one wanted them. Maori, European it didn't matter.
The church being against apartheid is pretty unsurprising. Being against a bill that isn’t drafted is, however, stupid. Lieing about it is against the 10 commandments.
Charity status organizations that take a political stance are supposed to lose their charity status. Aren’t they?? rules for thee…. Isn’t that what they’ve done to charities that don’t agree with the previous govts positions?
@@josephjamesrollo9826 if we have to abide by the principles of the treaty wouldn’t it be a good idea for us to know what those principles are? How can you know that it’s only good for toilet paper if you haven’t seen the bill? Are you able to tell me what those principles are, because I have absolutely no idea
@@kiwishitloard2568 Then read it, or one of the many many books that have been written on the subject - why should you turn our country upside down because you are too lazy to do your own research
@@2wahineandadog why would having a discussion turn the country upside down? This is what I find in interesting is people aren’t even willing to have the conversation
The National govt is too scared, always has been. Labour and Greens are now fully indoctrinated hook line and sinker. They losing the realist type of NZr now.
Winston, on The Platform, stated there are no principles of the Treaty and hence NZF don't support the ACT bill. The problem is that the judiciary have decided to install some principles and have effectively overridden parliament. Winston says that we should get rid of the treaty principles idea but Seymour says let's define them. Both are right and either way the same outcome would be achieved. The problem is the unelected judges doing what they damn well please. So while I agree with Winston I think Seymour's idea to define the principles may be needed - it is the only logical way we can restrain illogical judges.
Agreed. The best thing about this, is that it's doing exactly what David wanted, for us NZrs to have a conversation about it. Until now it's been pretty much hidden from ordinary folk, except the cunning who have been maneuvering and manipulating and twisting and adding exclusive words into doctrine behind the scenes, with complicit judges who have created this monstrosity that's been ongoing since the 1970's. Thanks to David for bringing it out into the sunshine, but don't they who weave these new principleshate and fear what we might all think....
You have no clue because you are obviously not a Christian, but the Treaty Chiefs were so the founding faith of this Nation is Tikanga Christianity nothing and no-one can change it, the law and order is based on Biblical values, rights and human needs.
Used to support the Catholic Church. But after the Pope jumped on the so-called “Climate Change” bandwagon and now the Catholic Church in this country going off on this Treaty nonsense - no thanks, they’ve lost the plot, so no longer got my membership!
I wish the Churches would just concentrate on the nurturing of the spiritual needs of their congregation and reach out to those who are lost. Stay away from politics.
@@2wahineandadog I'd say the OP gives to another organisation instead, most of use that support charities tend to move our support to another in the field when it's obvious the original charity has changed tact.
Church leaders need to sincerely,unashamedly focus their whole minds, bodies,energy,and hearts on leading people to Christ. It’s their mission ….once they step into the political arena they water down their mission. Watered down doesn’t wash it with most people…. It is a glaring failure in mission…it’s short term ,ill advised thinking.
@@dgm2593 take all the improvements the European ancestors brought with them too, eh? Those that stay better get used to eating Kumera, eels, using stones for tools and fighting off all the neighbouring tribes who come raiding for slaves… I’m sure you’ll all adjust.
Michael, you put this way more elequently than I. When watching this on the news last night my statement was a succinct two worded one, the second of which was "off". The church can lecture and sermonize all they want from the pulpit, but it keep it there and out of politics. The Treaty Principles Bill is not, and never was, about erasing The Treaty. It's about defining what The Treaty means nearly 200 years after it's creation, potentially elevating it to an almost constitutional document. The US Consitution has had many amendments in recognition that the original, while important, was a document of its time and needs to keep pace and remain relevent as the country and society evolved. The same here applies: If Maori want The Treaty to remain relevent in the New Zealand of today and of the furture then they should be welcoming this Bill as an opportunity to even renegotiate terms and ensure it remains relevent. Because, if New Zealand even becomes a republic, then the Treaty (which was with the Crown, as in England) will technically become null and void.
Over five billion up to date since 1995 has been robbed from the NZ tax payer’s for Treaty pay out’s, imagine if that had been but into health and roading.
Have they all taken leave of their senses? Why were they so convinced of the ‘righteousness’ of opposing any discussion of the Treaty? Surely they will have lost more than a few of their congregation as a result of this foray into far left politics??
I think the church leaders time could be better spent exposing the kiddie fiddlers etc amongst their ranks and it's about time they got an invoice for all the damage they have caused that the taxpayer has had to stump up for. If they want to start interfering in the politics of this country then they can start paying their fair share of the tax. They are just like the maori businesses that are registered as a trust then pay minimum taxes but make the most noise .
These churches are lost but sadly are leading their parishioners astray, too. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.' The best version of 'We are now one people'.
Totally agree with David Seymour, and shame on Luxon and Peter's for not backing David Seymour on this matter and totally agree with what you just said Michael Laws.
If you are a politician who is only interested in your own career and not the country then you would do what they are doing as many before them have. Sweep it aside Nothing to see here Kick it to touch Leave it for someone else to sort out hopefully when I have moved on
@@rorigiles1323 hamas has nothing to do with it. What's happening to women and children in Gaza is appalling regardless of whose doing it. Never thought that oppressed would become the oppressor, but I guess we could look forward to the same come 2040 if Te Pati Maori become our owners
Well said Michael Laws. Could not agree more. It appears certain maori have commandeered these churches like they have the universities & local body councils. They have been very cunning while the rest of us were/are sleeping thinking it could not happen. With help of politicians on both sides of the spectrum it most certainly has & no more recently than with Luxon who has let so many of us down with regard to all this nonsense
Theses churches are nowhere to be heard on matters that offend God like abortion or euthanasia yet fight this bill that is dead in the water as it won’t get passed the 2 nd reading hypocrisy
Yes that’s right, I wonder if they could find it in there heart’s to give all that land back to the radical’s activist, me think’s it would be a cold day in hell before that ever happened 😂.
Where is he saying the church should vote for his treaty bill? All he wants is for it to be defined instead of being reinterpreted by convenience. The churches want the debate shut down because they think they know what is good for everyone
Our first parliament in 1853 did not have any Maori representatives. Destructive wars were the consequence. And confiscation. The four seats only were granted in 1868, after most of the damage was done. A legacy of loss.
@@pgreen8531 What was the cross? Answer...It was an instrument of torture. Whoever is capable of mistaking an instrument of torture for a symbol of divine love is deeply, deeply sick. ✝🤢🤮
Michael, from your comments - [1] - John Minto is like the Zebra, would find it hard to change his stripes, a hardened Socialist who has no regrets, as to travelling to South Africa, would not be on his bucket list. [2] - the break down of congregations from long standing Churches, you need to look at the rise of the minor churches, The Baptist movement in NZ is very strong. [3] - NZ now famous 400 have crossed a line in the sand, that Church does not get involved in matters Political, there is no "penitence" for this wrong doing. South Africa, not many New Zealanders would be aware of the wrath & stupidity, that the African National Congress (ANC) unleashed upon the people of South Africa to which on this current day, they suffer more from that " stupidity of poor governance" that no one can see an improvement happening any time soon. I feel very sorry for David Seymour, "hate has no mercy when unleashed".
The treaty needs to be sorted out ,Shane Jones speaks sense on this matter .and national need to confront it to , just turning their backs on it not good enough . people in the labour government and Maori party who have no care for this nation and work for themselves and their select groups only ,we r a nation ,divided by a piece of paper thats now a library of extended bullpooh
Well put Michael. I think what the "church" has done - as do others with the same message - is to shut down and stiffle any rational debate on the whole issue and through doing that are simply bullying the other side into submission and I believe heading that charge to destroy any meaningful debate is none other than New Zealand's Prime Minister who, in my opinion, is now just a couple of steps behind the last dictatorial leader this country had not that long ago.
Spot on Michael, these so-called church leaders have forgotten their calling of preaching the gospel that saves for a different gospel - all these virtuous pontifications have been subversive and aim to bury the truth about the Treaty which should be an open book to all. I will support this Bill for sure!
As someone who spent most of my life involved in Baptist churches (until a number years ago), I'm appalled. Seems to me many can't tell the difference between CRT, Marxism, and good Christian theology..
You might want to think twice about dismissing the 'Palestinian cause' in such a cavaliar manner... with now over 40,000 deaths in Gaza most of which are women and children.
Michael Laws just listen to yourself. Church shouldn't be involved in politics? Politics is about the policies that make up society and religion and moral values have always played a part in that. William Wilberforce anyone?
I want to know how we get luxon to change his mind? Im annoyed that he shut down the possibility of a referendum without even considering what we his employers want. I dont care what the church thinks...never have....but I do care that we have a PM who seems to think we are not adult enough to make this decision and is afraid if its potential divisiveness.
He hasn't shut it down he has just said his party will allow the 1st reading and submission only at this stage which means that if after the submissions they still decide not to further it with a bill, then next year it will be served as a referendum, 2 different bills.
Apartheid in South Africa, as appalling as it was, at least had the veneer and objective of "civilisation". When the "Other African Tribes" sought power this was not the case - and regretfully is not the case now in both appearances or objectives... South Africa, as predicted, has become a chaotic mess, as predicted, but some people only saw "skin colour" and ignored culture bc that wasn't convenient for their ideology and schema of how the world is...
Why do the churches think a treaty which consigns one group of the population to permanent dependence on the sovereign is a good idea? Why do the churches consider that unaccountable chieftainship is right, moral, and good, and to be pursued forever more? Constitution, now.
What killed the church was actually the introduction of weekend shopping. Our church died within three months after that. And the church generally has died ever since.
Actually it was also taking Bible classes out of schools in the late 80's, this was directly due to the de-colonisation tactics the Waitangi Tribunal dreamed up while they were firing recommendations at the weak Government that gave the old Kingitanga terrorists a Court of their own, huge mistake, one that I am sure the risen Treaty Chiefs abhor!
One should watch how one talks about people who have been ordained of God. And one who has no moral authority shouldnt try to drag others down into the ignorant uncaring malevolent pit that one has dragged itself into and made home. May the almighty Lord circumcise your heart Michael Laws.🐞🌈🐞
As I believe all moral differences (eg the types that are adjudicated and enforced by government laws) are all essentially religious in nature, why should churches be denied the same political voice that I assume that you cherish for yourself??
@@paulburns6110 Churches are not people. Individuals, including church leaders, are free to hold and express their own beliefs. As a Catholic, I do not believe that bishops represent my views on political issues. They are not in their roles to address political matters and should not claim to speak on behalf of parishioners in this context. Their statements should be seen as personal opinions rather than presented authoritative "church" positions. "Churches" are denied nothing, this right simply does not exist for them unless at the behest of their parishioners - and even then a majority. Parishioners were not consulted and as such no "right" was created. Plus, as Mike says in his broadcast - they are lying - another reason why they have no right.
@@hariseldon3786 "Parishioners were not consulted" do you have proof of this did they too all sign a document and make it publicly available or are you just spouting nonsense? The 400 who signed did so as individuals. Religion and politics have always been joined
@@2wahineandadog No one queried at my parish. Yes - religion and politics have often been joined and the ideal is that they are not - and this has often been achieved and should be here. The claim that the 400 are acting as individuals belies the facts.
Exactly Mike im debating a maori church patron over these issues and others on your forum, still waiting for them to show Maori mathematics and ancient calculations and the maori church in china as their whakapapa shows
Elsdon Best published The Maori School of Learning and The Maori division of time in the late 18th century - how much proof are you needing - try reading a book and stop harrassing Maori and religious believers because of your own ignorance
It does get rid of rights because by making the Treaty about principles it ceases to be about rights. It is fundamentally and objectively a constitutional document designed to constrain state power, it is by default a rights not principles based document. It can’t be read any other way, it may not be ideal but that’s the truth. It can hardly be said that in 1840 the chiefs were willing to convert their authority to the idea of an ambiguous set of principles. That’s not to say a Treaty principles Bill is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, the best thing for society might be to constrain the Treaty to a set of principles before things get out of hand and we wind up with sectarian violence.
The difficulty is that there is no way a Nation (any Nation) this divided could agree on a set of principles - we risk complete anarchy if we don't have a basis to begin with. Without a founding document it would be up for debate whether each individual has a right to own the home and the land they live on and they can't call the cops or the armed forces as they will be defending their own homes. There won't be any services as each individual has to protect themselves in total chaos. I don't know about you but I don't want to see any old person on the street because they can't protect themselves from younger aggressive people. Without the Treaty we also lose Crown support...
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If the church wants to play politics time to tax them why are they tax exempt anyway? It’s outdated let them pay their fair share
Perhaps they’re tax exempt, because what good they do for the society (on behalf of the government otherwise having to use your tax dollars) far outweighs the damage caused by some of their very small minority of rogue priests’ antics.
They nothing but banks lots of money coming in no tax expect one to adhere
2 reasons they are exempt. First is that they receive donations, not an income. Second is that it is charity, charity is the love of God above all things.
Praise Jesus!! In lord we trust 🫶🏽
Without churches and other volunteer groups stepping in where "your" tax dollars aren't this Country would be a sad place indeed. It isn't government groups running food banks or hospices....where do you expect them to get the money if not from donations. Or do you want to live in a place like America where we have to watch people die in their masses because they can't afford healthcare??? Use whole brain
The church needs to sort out its own number one issue of fiddling with young boys before it starts writing ridiculous open letters on politics
So you’re so perfectly moral yourself that you’re able to pen an open comment? Or are you just a hypocritical bigot??
Yes what a disgraceful lot, and they get away with out paying any taxes on there I’ll gotten gains.
@@AlanHeslop-ws1kw Praise Jesus’ name above all. God bless.
Hahaha. You all are all probably religious, and you do not respect your leaders. Is that a pakeha thing?
politicians fiddle kids to and often starts with texting them.
The Church has no place in this. What sad times we live in.
Talk about overreach.
The Church has freedom of speech and can write a letter like you and I can.
@@LarryMilmine-e9rit’s not a church issue, and they have can have undue influence on the people who attend their congregations, so it’s actually unethical and a conflict of interest.
@@dave24-73 "Overreach"? Ironic!!
As I believe all moral differences (eg the types that are adjudicated and enforced by government laws) are all essentially religious in nature, why should churches be denied the same political voice that I assume that you cherish for yourself?
They are humans and they have rights just like anyone else
They're all scared, none more so than Maori who are afraid to have their precious treaty exposed for what it is.
Yes an absolute farce
What do you mean their treaty? who wrote the fucken thing you dumb cunt !
@@chrisrutherfurd9338 how can maori claim when others came first proven at waitangi tribunal? Most maori conceded ngapuhi didn't got a treaty and they jump on board to claim under the treaty it's a costly waste of time and money to all of this nation, many who settled still scwobble over scraps after the trustees take their share n bail
@@pgreen8531 Had the "Farce" to a T by the time they arrived.
Prince Andrew, time to cancel the Monarchy.
I am a committed Christian and Jesus is my Lord but i definitely do not agree with the 400 "church leaders". I think David Seymour has a point. I am tired of the whole Treaty grievance industry and pandering to eternal victimhood. I respect Māori culture, language and history but I also respect my culture, language and history. Frankly, when I look at NZ history I don't think Māori society with its intertribal wars, slavery, belief systems, feudalistic society and destruction of forests and species make Māori any better than the rest of us. I think Māori culture and history is a very important part of new Zealand society but also believe that we all need to live under one set of laws and be treated as equals. I see TPM as racists.
100% agree
Amen
Bob, did your pastors consult with you or any others of your congregation before signing this letter on your behalf? If not, then that's a total travesty, and I would leave the church and tell them why!
Congratulations. One of the most balanced and well reasoned comments I've read anywhere on this topic. I myself would be much more vitriolic....
Blah blah blah..your comment screams victim..
The Three articles of the Treaty are largely about equal rights and privileges. Aside from the need to save souls and stay out of politics, why would church leaders possibly have a problem with equality? Unless someone is stretching the truth about those church leaders?
Wouldn't surprise me!!
I am in a church group that wouldn't touch that letter with a 10 foot pole. You have to understand that a large chunk of the church has broken off and would be unrecognizable from the historical church. I have found this numerous times over the last decade where Christians in a church setting are rejecting teaching that has been around for thousands of years. One that really got me was a church leader confronting me for not taking the vaccine. He got in my face and was frothing as he told me I was impure. God could only use the fully vaccinated. This is 100% opposite to anything you would find in Biblical teaching. The Bible is very supportive of individual rights. Also, for the record here - because I often see it quoted, "separation of church and state" is to keep the state out of the church. That was the real issue historically. From a spiritual perspective there is a growing cloud of spiritual darkness on a global scale. New Zealand has been sucked into it as well. This spiritual darkness is what is fueling the division globally over the races. There is a strategy to undermine all national foundational documents and create maximum division. This is the non-stop promotion of colonialism. Imagine if you had two children and you repeatedly scolded one child and praised the other - anyone with children would understand. What the indigenous of all lands do not realize is that it is a poisoned apple. They are sold on the lie that when the country collapses that all of the spoils will go to them. No, they will be worse of than before. Weak nations are easy to destroy. South Africa is an excellent example. To what aim? Why weaken all of the western nations? To make way for global governance. This battle is being waged on multiple fronts. One is a global digital ID with vaccine passport. Another is the carbon cost and taxes associated with climate change. Cash will be abolished soon and you will be given a choice to enter the beast system or to reject it. I believe based on the response over the last few years that a large majority would not suffer the inconvenience. Laugh at me now. Call me a stupid cooker. Lets talk again in 10 years.
I agree I have been in a 100 different churches between 1970 and 2010 and then wrote a book about it with prophetic messages, haven't published yet can't afford it but the reality is there are more spirit-filled Christians outside of the mainstream Churches than going to them. After decades of various Church attendance and experiences I joined an Independent group who were sick of Churches it was amazing but then it broke up due to the same problem Churches have, controlling your mind instead of letting God bring revelation through you to the Church body. There's been a great falling away with Saints of God in obscurity but you just watch this space we are rising up big time with a wave of revival which begins with removal of lies and deception!!
The mark of the beast on hand and forehead, not being able to buy anything without it. Always sounded far fetched till covid, and the Q code we had to download to go in and out of shops. Once digital currency is in, cash is out, note they want everything to be electric, it can all be cut off at any time....the 15% West is gone. The 85% are fighting back
Sorry to hear about your experience with so called Church leaders regarding Covid. I believe many were on the wrong side, or at least missed an opportunity. Those who weren't vaccinated were marginalized by society. Jesus spent most of his time with those who were marginalized by society.
Yeah I think Covid really revealed something... So many Christians, who I thought were supposed to have a strong sense of morality and discernment, didn't just fail to see something was off, but actually were strongly advocating for measures that I thought was at best misguided (believing that the "greater good" is some sort of moral duty and more important than individual freedom) and at worst openly cruel (like separating loved ones at times of need). Not only that, many STILL seem oblivious and unrepentant. It really shows how easily misled people are. So I'm sure it's not hard to find people in the church who will sign a letter in support of the latest politically correct idea.
Have a cup of tea and a lie down...
if the treaty was signed by the British, why does the NZ tax payer have to pay out settlements? And also why do we not get British passports?
Pakeha and other middle class working citizens have been charged for past theft it's pretty corrupt considering it went to the wrong side
It was signed by the Crown and we still have the Crown as our head of state.
@@awblax1 so why is the nz tax payer paying? why is the king not forking out? why do we not get british passports? The treaty says we have the same rights as the british.
@@Mostlypeaceful896 By the British Nationality Acts 1948 and 1981 we are no longer British subjects but Commonwealth Citizens? Therefore there is no right to a British passport, TOW notwithstanding. The New Zealand taxpayer appears to have been bequeathed the Crown's liability.
@michaeltoohey1385 how can we be stripped of our right to be british subjects like that? Surely that means the british abandoned the treaty. I still think they should be paying the bill, and give us british passports. Is it not perverse that income tax from maori citizens are paying for treaty settlements?
These 'church leaders' can get stuffed
@@alethein359 That your Religious Belief? Or....
Kiddy fiddlers
@@-KAIX-0405-NZ maybe it is a rejection of bullying by what is for most of secular New Zealand a diminishing irrelevant interest group.
@@rogermartin8435 Like the way you "Skirt" around the issue, be it a "Mini-Skirt." Roger Roger, Over & Out.
@@-KAIX-0405-NZ i aim to provide some clarity to a temporal issue. Spititual beliefs are best left out of such matters.
Luxton needs to stop sitting on his hands like he did in Covid and let us vote on it. Because the majority are over it.
Those main churches have sold there souls to the devil years ago
They're the wokiest wokesters around, asleep at the wheel and heading for judgement by God!
@@fromnzwhoisalsohalfindienspoken like a true demoralised useful idiot - I bet your in front of Brian on your knees right now?
@@fromnzwhoisalsohalfindien ahh keep damn clear off that methodist church on Hobson street- Auckland as they have Sodom Pride ssermons and a weird Man in shorts gives the sermons.
I DIDN'T VOTE FOR SEYMOUR ,BUT HE'S THE ONLY ONE WITH BALLS ,AND THEY MAY BE 9% IN THE GOVT ,BUT HAVE THE SILENT MAJORITY BEHIND THEM .CALL FOR A REFERENDUM ,NOW INSTEAD OF THE TREATY BILL AND SHOW THE REAL NUMBERS ,WHO SUPPORT WHAT HES DOING.
Thank you Platform .For always bringing Truth, Logic and Common sense to Air. 👍🌹 Thankyou Michael. 🌹👍💖 A+ Media always @Platform🌹🍷
I guess these Church leaders don't follow God. Since we are all created equal in relation to God, we all have equal dignity as earthly children of our heavenly Father.
Exactly right
that was my first thought when I saw the front page of the herald this morning.
But our heavenly father sees all and he says people must honour's their oaths, read your bible
@@kanewhare-paikea7316 What oath? The Treaty? Firstly is wasn't a sworn oath. And secondly, Matthew 5:34-37 says, "But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool." Read your Bible!
@Rokker61 so god made us all equal did he? When we all come to him through Jesus christ we are equal, stop taking scripture out of context to fit your narrative,
I was raised to be a catholic, but the nuns beat it out of me.
Me too, except for one. Bitches.
How cliche...the nuns I grew up with were hard women but amazing...no one else would look after mentally disabled kids 24/7 365 days a year when no one wanted them. Maori, European it didn't matter.
Our 'brown bombers' the Sisters of St Joseph were a hard lot, didn't like us boys, I learnt that pretty quick as a primary school kid.
@@quintinsmith5400 What order of nuns were your lot.
@@stevehughes1510 My mum was one of the paid teachers who taught during the day at home of compassion in carterton.
Thank You Michael for revealing how the Church has embrace Maori Spiritulism.
You mean Maori voodooism.
@@gordonpotts9642I guess that could explain cannibalism
They are a authority on myths and legends just like
Maori.
@@LaurineCurrinyes and all the other brutal things they did to their own unwanted female off spring.
Then it probably also breaks the first commandment too: "thou shalt have no other gods before me".
"...you Clerical Clowns" Michael Laws, Brilliant!
You nailed Michael 👍
The church being against apartheid is pretty unsurprising.
Being against a bill that isn’t drafted is, however, stupid.
Lieing about it is against the 10 commandments.
Are we not all anti-apartheid? They didn't lie, seymour's interpretation of the treaty drastically changes its meaning and application.
@@LarryMilmine-e9rSo you have seen MR Seymour’s Bill have you. Sounds like more myth and legend that non thinkers simply accept.
@@GDOG1901 It got leaked. Even Luxon and Peters were not on board with how extreme seymours views are.
You speak for us all Michael.....we feel like we are living in some kind of madness. NZ known for it's sheep now appears to be peopled by them.......
He didn't provide any substantive claims. He has herded you like sheep by enraging you without any logical reason but his emotional opinion.
The flock have turned their backs on the good shepherd and it's only a few sheep dogs that are keeping the wolves at bay!
You mean he speaks for all the racist. He don't speak on my behalf. All michael does is moan and cry 😢
@@nomez2230 We’re all still entitled to our own opinions so far brother though you might well want it another way….
@@LarryMilmine-e9rdon't be a savior Larry, because you'll be the first one they'll eat
Charity status organizations that take a political stance are supposed to lose their charity status. Aren’t they?? rules for thee…. Isn’t that what they’ve done to charities that don’t agree with the previous govts positions?
Thank you. As an ex South African living in NZ this is so true!!! The only sane media outlet worth listening to.
Don’t be bringing your ideas about coloureds to this country
Our country needs this bill more than anything.
No.. you need this bill. I would only use it to wipe my ass😂
@@josephjamesrollo9826 if we have to abide by the principles of the treaty wouldn’t it be a good idea for us to know what those principles are?
How can you know that it’s only good for toilet paper if you haven’t seen the bill?
Are you able to tell me what those principles are, because I have absolutely no idea
@@kiwishitloard2568 Then read it, or one of the many many books that have been written on the subject - why should you turn our country upside down because you are too lazy to do your own research
@@2wahineandadog why would having a discussion turn the country upside down? This is what I find in interesting is people aren’t even willing to have the conversation
A book like that written by Sir Āpirana Ngata ? Or only books that support your view and interpretation?
See the problem? @@2wahineandadog
Well said Michael
So we'll said and explained. Thank you!
My immediate reaction to their letter was "get your own house in order first"
@@ianstollery4922 Praise Jesus’ name above all. He’s Truth personified. God bless all.
You nailed it
The church was founded because someone was nailed.
@@urbanegorilla6005by his own kin! 🤷
WELL SAID MICHAEL
My view.
Put a end date on the tribunal.
If not , claims will get more divisive
The National govt is too scared, always has been. Labour and Greens are now fully indoctrinated hook line and sinker. They losing the realist type of NZr now.
Feel free to speed the process up it's been going since the 1970's and still not resolved
The treaty needs to be archived forever
💯🥜🧠
As always ..well reasoned Michael…nz needs this to move forward in a positive way
Law's had no substantive claims. All he did was tickle your buthole and you enjoyed it.
True story, please keep up the good work
Brilliant. I am so glad I have found The Platform.
I agree with you Michael 100%
Winston, on The Platform, stated there are no principles of the Treaty and hence NZF don't support the ACT bill. The problem is that the judiciary have decided to install some principles and have effectively overridden parliament. Winston says that we should get rid of the treaty principles idea but Seymour says let's define them. Both are right and either way the same outcome would be achieved. The problem is the unelected judges doing what they damn well please. So while I agree with Winston I think Seymour's idea to define the principles may be needed - it is the only logical way we can restrain illogical judges.
Agreed. The best thing about this, is that it's doing exactly what David wanted, for us NZrs to have a conversation about it.
Until now it's been pretty much hidden from ordinary folk, except the cunning who have been maneuvering and manipulating and twisting and adding exclusive words into doctrine behind the scenes, with complicit judges who have created this monstrosity that's been ongoing since the 1970's.
Thanks to David for bringing it out into the sunshine, but don't they who weave these new principleshate and fear what we might all think....
Christian religion is losing its relevancy in NZ. This 400 signature petition just accelerates the process.
Let’s hope so
Without faith you have nothing
You have no clue because you are obviously not a Christian, but the Treaty Chiefs were so the founding faith of this Nation is Tikanga Christianity nothing and no-one can change it, the law and order is based on Biblical values, rights and human needs.
@@Peter_Pepper_Lovefaith in God, or religion. There's a huge divide there.
@@LaurineCurrin'knowing' is stronger than belief 🙌
We are encouraged to pray for the Government, not tell them to stop a democratic process
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 well said, thy truth and only thy truth 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Used to support the Catholic Church. But after the Pope jumped on the so-called “Climate Change” bandwagon and now the Catholic Church in this country going off on this Treaty nonsense - no thanks, they’ve lost the plot, so no longer got my membership!
Rome the mother of harlots.
I'm sure they are devastated at the loss
Well said, I agree with you all the way.
I wish the Churches would just concentrate on the nurturing of the spiritual needs of their congregation and reach out to those who are lost. Stay away from politics.
After much soul searching I have stopped giving money to the Salvation Army because it has become involved in politics.
My father's inheritance went to the Salvation Army...he'd be turning in his gravey!
What a shock - no wonder food banks are struggling with people like you
@@2wahineandadog I'd say the OP gives to another organisation instead, most of use that support charities tend to move our support to another in the field when it's obvious the original charity has changed tact.
@@2wahineandadog As naturesoundsnz points out there are other ways of supporting people in need
Church leaders need to sincerely,unashamedly focus their whole minds, bodies,energy,and hearts on leading people to Christ.
It’s their mission ….once they step into the political arena they water down their mission.
Watered down doesn’t wash it with most people…. It is a glaring failure in mission…it’s short term ,ill advised thinking.
well presented Michael..................
That open letter is a sign of laziness in researching what the bill actually means
well said
Spot on Michael
Right with you Michael, time to dump the Treaty and move into the 21st century and become a proper cosmopolitan nation moving forward!
Dumping the treaty instantly deports all pakeha back to england! Yay!!!
@@dgm2593 take all the improvements the European ancestors brought with them too, eh? Those that stay better get used to eating Kumera, eels, using stones for tools and fighting off all the neighbouring tribes who come raiding for slaves… I’m sure you’ll all adjust.
@dgm2593 you gonna stay behind and grow some mean as gorse and blackberry eh
@@dgm2593Racist comment mate. Born here and going nowhere.
@@GDOG1901 its you clowns that want to remove treaty. Its the only thing keeping you here. Once the treaty goes so do you!!!
Michael, you put this way more elequently than I. When watching this on the news last night my statement was a succinct two worded one, the second of which was "off". The church can lecture and sermonize all they want from the pulpit, but it keep it there and out of politics. The Treaty Principles Bill is not, and never was, about erasing The Treaty. It's about defining what The Treaty means nearly 200 years after it's creation, potentially elevating it to an almost constitutional document. The US Consitution has had many amendments in recognition that the original, while important, was a document of its time and needs to keep pace and remain relevent as the country and society evolved. The same here applies: If Maori want The Treaty to remain relevent in the New Zealand of today and of the furture then they should be welcoming this Bill as an opportunity to even renegotiate terms and ensure it remains relevent. Because, if New Zealand even becomes a republic, then the Treaty (which was with the Crown, as in England) will technically become null and void.
All about money nothing else. Cronyism rife billions taxpayer dollars disappearing no accountability
Over five billion up to date since 1995 has been robbed from the NZ tax payer’s for Treaty pay out’s, imagine if that had been but into health and roading.
Have they all taken leave of their senses? Why were they so convinced of the ‘righteousness’ of opposing any discussion of the Treaty? Surely they will have lost more than a few of their congregation as a result of this foray into far left politics??
I think the church leaders time could be better spent exposing the kiddie fiddlers etc amongst their ranks and it's about time they got an invoice for all the damage they have caused that the taxpayer has had to stump up for. If they want to start interfering in the politics of this country then they can start paying their fair share of the tax. They are just like the maori businesses that are registered as a trust then pay minimum taxes but make the most noise .
Totally agree - liberal socialist twits all of them.
How can they object to the Bill when it hasn't even been drafted or released. They don't even know what's in it?
You are so right Michael ...the biggest lie i have heard in my lifetime ..
What a sheltered life you have led - you should go back to your cave before anything further happens
Time to Tax them just another myth based grifting outfit looking after their own coffers.
Absolutely need to tax this lot
Tax them, and like everyone else who donates to charity, have them then claim their tax back .. same goes for iwi.
What are you going to tax them on?
@@paulburns6110 Income, like every other business.
These churches are lost but sadly are leading their parishioners astray, too. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.' The best version of 'We are now one people'.
What neither male nor female???
Totally agree with David Seymour, and shame on Luxon and Peter's for not backing David Seymour on this matter and totally agree with what you just said Michael Laws.
If you are a politician who is only interested in your own career and not the country then you would do what they are doing as many before them have.
Sweep it aside Nothing to see here Kick it to touch Leave it for someone else to sort out hopefully when I have moved on
On target Michael
The Bible also says churches are to stay out of politics
South Africa is now a cot case.
But thankfully with a conscience re Gaza
@@LaurineCurrin hamas lover.
@@LaurineCurrinreported you for supporting a terrorist group
@@rorigiles1323 hamas has nothing to do with it. What's happening to women and children in Gaza is appalling regardless of whose doing it. Never thought that oppressed would become the oppressor, but I guess we could look forward to the same come 2040 if Te Pati Maori become our owners
Well said Michael Laws. Could not agree more. It appears certain maori have commandeered these churches like they have the universities & local body councils. They have been very cunning while the rest of us were/are sleeping thinking it could not happen. With help of politicians on both sides of the spectrum it most certainly has & no more recently than with Luxon who has let so many of us down with regard to all this nonsense
Good on you Michael put these * ( so called) * Christian Leaders iin their place question. Who actually behind all this ?
Spot on Michael,you are absolutely correct,no ifs buts or maybe,s,100% correct
💯
Theses churches are nowhere to be heard on matters that offend God like abortion or euthanasia yet fight this bill that is dead in the water as it won’t get passed the 2 nd reading hypocrisy
Or sex with children.
💯 well said!!
There was a monk, many centuries ago, who wrote: "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".
How much land do those churches own in NZ
Heaps and no rates
Yes that’s right, I wonder if they could find it in there heart’s to give all that land back to the radical’s activist, me think’s it would be a cold day in hell before that ever happened 😂.
How much land do you own in NZ
As a Muslim i agree with the Christians 😊
I agree we are all equal and we should each other so .Love your neighbors,it's that easy maybe we can try it. 9:46
The church has alot to do with the treaty they translated it altered it english
Seymour first states that the churches should vote for his treaty bill then tells them to stay out of politics when they vote against it. How ironic
Where is he saying the church should vote for his treaty bill? All he wants is for it to be defined instead of being reinterpreted by convenience.
The churches want the debate shut down because they think they know what is good for everyone
@@carinya18 it’s already been defined though..?
Our first parliament in 1853 did not have any Maori representatives. Destructive wars were the consequence. And confiscation. The four seats only were granted in 1868, after most of the damage was done. A legacy of loss.
In the lord we trust!!!! Church leaders understand the history of Aotearoa!
Wow !! So well said.
The Devil lurks behind the cross.
The devil is afraid of the cross ✝️
@@pgreen8531 What was the cross? Answer...It was an instrument of torture. Whoever is capable of mistaking an instrument of torture for a symbol of divine love is deeply, deeply sick. ✝🤢🤮
@Colin_Izer1111 Christ was killed by his own kin 🤷
Only the devil would say such a thing
@@StGammon77 Christianity and Satanism are the two sides of the same coin.
The People WILL RISE UP
AND Stand UPON THERE ROCKS !!!🛡️🙏🗡️♾️
Michael, from your comments -
[1] - John Minto is like the Zebra, would find it hard to change his stripes, a hardened Socialist who has no regrets, as to travelling to South Africa, would not be on his bucket list.
[2] - the break down of congregations from long standing Churches, you need to look at the rise of the minor churches, The Baptist movement in NZ is very strong.
[3] - NZ now famous 400 have crossed a line in the sand, that Church does not get involved in matters Political, there is no "penitence" for this wrong doing.
South Africa, not many New Zealanders would be aware of the wrath & stupidity, that the African National Congress (ANC) unleashed upon the people of South Africa to which on this current day, they suffer more from that " stupidity of poor governance" that no one can see an improvement happening any time soon.
I feel very sorry for David Seymour, "hate has no mercy when unleashed".
The treaty needs to be sorted out ,Shane Jones speaks sense on this matter .and national need to confront it to , just turning their backs on it not good enough . people in the labour government and Maori party who have no care for this nation and work for themselves and their select groups only ,we r a nation ,divided by a piece of paper thats now a library of extended bullpooh
Not to forget the thousands of Maori or those who identify as Maori who work and live in Australia and other countries around the world.
You are dead right
Well said Michael Another case of the church conforming to the world . Be ye not conformed to the things of this world (Rom.12.2)
Did Michael just advocate for South African apartide?
Time to name the churchs let's have a look at them yeah
Um they literally have their congregations beside their names...duh
Well put Michael. I think what the "church" has done - as do others with the same message - is to shut down and stiffle any rational debate on the whole issue and through doing that are simply bullying the other side into submission and I believe heading that charge to destroy any meaningful debate is none other than New Zealand's Prime Minister who, in my opinion, is now just a couple of steps behind the last dictatorial leader this country had not that long ago.
Spot on Michael, these so-called church leaders have forgotten their calling of preaching the gospel that saves for a different gospel - all these virtuous pontifications have been subversive and aim to bury the truth about the Treaty which should be an open book to all. I will support this Bill for sure!
No one has seen what the Bill says yet.
As someone who spent most of my life involved in Baptist churches (until a number years ago), I'm appalled. Seems to me many can't tell the difference between CRT, Marxism, and good Christian theology..
You might want to think twice about dismissing the 'Palestinian cause' in such a cavaliar manner... with now over 40,000 deaths in Gaza most of which are women and children.
Michael Laws just listen to yourself. Church shouldn't be involved in politics? Politics is about the policies that make up society and religion and moral values have always played a part in that. William Wilberforce anyone?
God is patient but not impressed ✨️
I want to know how we get luxon to change his mind? Im annoyed that he shut down the possibility of a referendum without even considering what we his employers want. I dont care what the church thinks...never have....but I do care that we have a PM who seems to think we are not adult enough to make this decision and is afraid if its potential divisiveness.
He hasn't shut it down he has just said his party will allow the 1st reading and submission only at this stage which means that if after the submissions they still decide not to further it with a bill, then next year it will be served as a referendum, 2 different bills.
@@StGammon77 Luxon and Peters have already declared they will NOT support the bill after the first reading. There is no "if" about it.
One dictator after the other. Labour and national take turn.
Apartheid in South Africa, as appalling as it was, at least had the veneer and objective of "civilisation". When the "Other African Tribes" sought power this was not the case - and regretfully is not the case now in both appearances or objectives... South Africa, as predicted, has become a chaotic mess, as predicted, but some people only saw "skin colour" and ignored culture bc that wasn't convenient for their ideology and schema of how the world is...
And because some people still only see that is why we are in this position still
Will said Michael 😊
Michael Laws where did you migrate from?
Well said!!
Why do the churches think a treaty which consigns one group of the population to permanent dependence on the sovereign is a good idea?
Why do the churches consider that unaccountable chieftainship is right, moral, and good, and to be pursued forever more?
Constitution, now.
What killed the church was actually the introduction of weekend shopping. Our church died within three months after that. And the church generally has died ever since.
Actually it was also taking Bible classes out of schools in the late 80's, this was directly due to the de-colonisation tactics the Waitangi Tribunal dreamed up while they were firing recommendations at the weak Government that gave the old Kingitanga terrorists a Court of their own, huge mistake, one that I am sure the risen Treaty Chiefs abhor!
@@StGammon77 that was in schools until 6 years ago
@@StGammon77 I will say this StGammon: You have one of the very best usernames on the internet. Much respect👍
Good 👍.
They could have church led group on any day of the week.
One should watch how one talks about people who have been ordained of God. And one who has no moral authority shouldnt try to drag others down into the ignorant uncaring malevolent pit that one has dragged itself into and made home. May the almighty Lord circumcise your heart Michael Laws.🐞🌈🐞
Religion and matters of State should remain as separate as possible... decades of ACTIVIST law and performative behaviour.
As I believe all moral differences (eg the types that are adjudicated and enforced by government laws) are all essentially religious in nature, why should churches be denied the same political voice that I assume that you cherish for yourself??
@@paulburns6110 Churches are not people. Individuals, including church leaders, are free to hold and express their own beliefs. As a Catholic, I do not believe that bishops represent my views on political issues. They are not in their roles to address political matters and should not claim to speak on behalf of parishioners in this context. Their statements should be seen as personal opinions rather than presented authoritative "church" positions. "Churches" are denied nothing, this right simply does not exist for them unless at the behest of their parishioners - and even then a majority. Parishioners were not consulted and as such no "right" was created. Plus, as Mike says in his broadcast - they are lying - another reason why they have no right.
@@hariseldon3786 thanks I agree with most of what you say. God bless
@@hariseldon3786 "Parishioners were not consulted" do you have proof of this did they too all sign a document and make it publicly available or are you just spouting nonsense? The 400 who signed did so as individuals. Religion and politics have always been joined
@@2wahineandadog No one queried at my parish. Yes - religion and politics have often been joined and the ideal is that they are not - and this has often been achieved and should be here. The claim that the 400 are acting as individuals belies the facts.
Exactly Mike im debating a maori church patron over these issues and others on your forum, still waiting for them to show Maori mathematics and ancient calculations and the maori church in china as their whakapapa shows
Elsdon Best published The Maori School of Learning and The Maori division of time in the late 18th century - how much proof are you needing - try reading a book and stop harrassing Maori and religious believers because of your own ignorance
It does get rid of rights because by making the Treaty about principles it ceases to be about rights. It is fundamentally and objectively a constitutional document designed to constrain state power, it is by default a rights not principles based document. It can’t be read any other way, it may not be ideal but that’s the truth. It can hardly be said that in 1840 the chiefs were willing to convert their authority to the idea of an ambiguous set of principles.
That’s not to say a Treaty principles Bill is necessarily a bad thing.
In fact, the best thing for society might be to constrain the Treaty to a set of principles before things get out of hand and we wind up with sectarian violence.
The difficulty is that there is no way a Nation (any Nation) this divided could agree on a set of principles - we risk complete anarchy if we don't have a basis to begin with. Without a founding document it would be up for debate whether each individual has a right to own the home and the land they live on and they can't call the cops or the armed forces as they will be defending their own homes. There won't be any services as each individual has to protect themselves in total chaos. I don't know about you but I don't want to see any old person on the street because they can't protect themselves from younger aggressive people. Without the Treaty we also lose Crown support...
We have to fight colonization